Honestly, Rocket money helped me to realize what happened that caused my account to drive me almost bankrupt. No bullshit, it actually helped me personally realize what went wrong. Good choice in this advert Flats
I love how Spider Man has such a hard kit to master, full of combos and knowing the perfect way to web swing, then his ult is just "Yeah press this button when you're near people and they'll vaporize"
@ movement isn’t that important considering how fast good healers can pocket on characters like mantis and dagger. I climbed solo q to plat with only iron fist but now I just play black panther to carry
this game provides the true spider-man experience. all your teammates think you’re gonna suck and you have to work harder 2 times harder to do well. just like the comics it’s always an uphill battle of willpower lmao
And you have to play like a super mobile annoying jerk because you can't compete head-to-head with almost anyone so you have to wear them down and catch them off guard.
@@MaidenlessScrubive gone 22 and 0 in comp with him and i usually get more final kills than all my team mates. Im not diamond but he does in fact kill.
Played against a Wolverine and Bucky duo. Y'know how you need to flank and position yourself somehow to successfully kidnap a tank as Wolverine? Gone. Bucky kidnaps you by simply looking at your ginormous tank body and then Wolverine kidnaps you after to maximize kidnapping time. Hell, maybe they even kidnap different tanks to spread the kidnappings around. It's basically an unofficial team up.
I think the issue with Wolverine is that without his passive he has very low survivability and in lower ranks you'd see more team comps with 3 dps and 1 tank which does make Wolverine a lot less effective. His lunge also has some really weird hitbox which can make it harder to land on smaller characters.
Well that's the way the game is meant to be played. I mean it takes skills to perform perfect combo with your teammate and once you succeed in doing that, it's only natural that you'd be rewarded with a kill.
@@masterweapon334 the amount of people who have no clue how his kit works is crazy, like especially when they run out of the green circles like please stay inside you’re unkillable lmao
@@RD-um9dy my favourite thing ever is copying luna and using her ult, had a game today where we had mirror teams and we had 4 luna ults going back to back lol
As a staunch cloak and dagger player I don't see many people utilizing them to the fullest extent, they live and die by 3 major things. 1. Proper ult usage. 2. Target priority/awareness. And 3. Positioning. The auto tracking primary fire on both characters helps you keep the healing consistent but it also bursts on impact so it can hurt enemies at the same time it heals so exploit that to the fullest. As a support you are going to get dived its inevitable and you can't sleep or freeze like luna or mantis so your best bet is to stay aware of divers and switch to cloak for the blind and cloak combo, the cloak ability lets you get limited flight abilities while breaking LoS using the blind screen this lets you reposition basically uncontested. As for the ult, it ends when you die (like most ults) so I think its best to actually switch up your positioning and follow right behind the tanks hit the dome as dagger to carve out a safe zone then ult the point or payload (ideally) as part of the push or to stop a push then you still have cloaks abilities to help increase dmg and get to safety so your ult doesn't get shut down early. And for the love of stan lee when I tell you to stop attacking please stop so I can cloak us and shut down most big splashy ults please I'm begging you I'm tired of trying to save the team from a big threat using the cloak only to have you all break the cloak die and then it's just me facing down the enemy team.
I have major respect for people who main C&D. I have a rather hard time wrapping my head around their play style despite absolutely loving them and their designs and wanting like them so much. Played a much with a C&D earlier and it was neck and neck but they won us the game. By somehow keeping 2 of us alive while we got bum rushed while the rest of our team was running back.
As someone who mains Cap when I tank, I'm glad to hear that getting low damage/kills is common even among the good players lmao. That being said, I've found that Cap's use stems from his ability to stall the fuck out of a game; I've managed to solo cling onto a capture point for a solid 30 seconds during overtime and granted my team the chance to steal the victory
Basically every burst ultimate. And Psylocke's. Hers might be prolonged but it always alternates targets to the ones who have been hit the least. I have strong suspicion that it gives him ult charge based on the overkill damage rather than the shield Max health.
Yea ive saved so many ppl from jeffs ult. Iron man ults etc. Problem is when the other enemies wait to ult until after you use the bubble. Which a jeff was smart and waited until after I saved me and team from iron man ult and then just swallowed us 😂😂😂
The Peni disrespect is still crazy and I will die on the hill saying she is S tier. I think we’ll all feel dumb one day when it’s a Wolverine situation where all the cracked Peni’s start revealing optimal playstyles than just pub stomping on defense. Peni is 4 star for a reason she is the vanguard that requires the most brain to use. The nest can be played in so many ways. You can put nest behind cover and extend the range with your own webs allowing the nano spiders to go further. You can nest right before you ult to create a long pathway for all those mines to follow. Popping your own nest early can save so much down time and increase up time. I can just go on and on about playing around your nest alone but there’s more to her and you need to play smartly. She can permanently keep bonus health up and move at max speed traversing with nests. You can poke with a the tether nest and pull yourself back to safety. The point is there’s just so much more than just being the low rank anti dive and defense tank. Eventually I’m sure more people will realize.
I feel like she can only become worse as more people become aware of how she works. It doesnt matter what role Im in I shoot the nest and if you have several people aware of it its going to be rough. There are points where there are no good spots to put the nest even with extending the range. Usually when I hear penni ult I look to shoot the nest and my team already got it. The web stun is good though.
While not C I think S is too high (I'd go lower A, at worse high B) just because it takes time to set up to get the most out of her & on ATK that's extremely difficulty to do, I can see the nest getting a rework in the future so it can function better on attack but until then that's the only thing holding her back that it takes too much time to get her set up.
I think there is a point to be made about certain heroes really requiring voice comms to play properly. Black Widow and Hawkeye synergize super well because of the shared ult effect, and Scarlet Witch combo ult with Strange goes super hard - but it requires coordination and timing to pull off. Moon Knight team up with Cloak and Dagger is really strong. When he makes use of the invisibility he has a good amount of time to just spam shots into a team fight and stress out the healers. Giving Cloak/Dagger a +15% healing boost is a big deal. Cloak is one of the best roaming supports because of the dual nature to her kit. She can pocket heal a diver really well, and Cloak gives her solid options to amp damage and reposition with E and right-click. She’s also great at healing flyers because of the homing heals. Trying to heal a mobile Iron Man or Starlord with Luna is a pain in the ass. Lastly, I think the combo of Jeff and Iron Man is actually super nasty. Jeff’s right click and Iron Mans left click both have similar splash area so if they just bully anybody caught out in the open.
Her web slinging is awesome. I have terrible aim yet probably hit 50% or more thanks to it's decent hit box. Stopping alts is huge, she's not well appreciated on this list. I think you have to main her first to understand fully her potential.
Did you not even watch the damn video Flats himself said peni was niin bait Sure she has a 4 seconds stun but other than that she's easily dealt with because she's so damn slow
@ireallydontknow278 her being "slow" isn't a valid argument when every character except like... 3 travel at the same speed So she's literally not slow at all, she actually has better mobility than some others cause of how she's able to wall run and has the web snatch
I've had Cloak and Dagger Lord Proficiency since the first week. I love how offensive and defensive you can be. My last game of the night was 41/2/37 with 17k dmg and 45k heals. I do see people that don't play them very well and I feel in time when people learn they could be a scary character
Agreed, I honestly also feel like she is the best pick if you get stuck solo healing. She can put out consistent heals in multiple areas with her dagger bubble and healing shield as well as saving herself (and potentially the whole team) with Cloak and help win fights with the blind/debuff shield too. She can be so powerful if you use her full kit effectively
@soph6539 I play Cloak only when it's to evade, counter ults, throw out his blinding wall at groups or to do some killing when needed. Otherwise I am always Dagger, and with her I'm throwing darts like crazy during the fight, but I also like to throw the bubble to heal teammates on the other side of walls or if they are on a floor above me. I use her ult and bubble to push the points and when I see my tanks both getting destroyed I'll dash towards them with it, towards the point, then towards a group of enemy's, switch to Cloak, throw wall and try killing before my ult runs out if my team is okay enough to live. But I'm constantly looking for heals and seeing if there are anyone flying that needs health or enemys that need to be ticked by her darts to scare them a bit. The game itself was like 9 min or so.
My argument for C&D is that most of the ultimates in S Tier are countered by Cloaks right click, and every one that isn't (Punisher, Luna, Mantis, Hela) you can trade ult for ult for as a counter.
exactly this. Hell, the timing is hard depending on team coordination but if the enemy does a support ult, the right click is enough to live it out and then chain into your own ulti.
Really quick here, you can trade Ult for Ult on any support not just C&D and usually people don't stay in her ult for some reason I don't know. And also her ult is not that powerful compared to Luna snow or Mantis due to it being a "Sustain" vs "DMG output" fight. I feel as though Flat's is basing it off "Average value" rather than "Potential value" because you are correct, C&D can easily dodge and counter some ultimates However they don't do it often which is why she's not that exceptional. It's like saying Jeff is S tier because he once killed all 6 enemies at once. Yeah that's possible but it doesn't happen often. Which is why you can't base a tier list on "potential". Otherwise Spiderman would be S+ and dominating the meta but most people don't have that skill level to pull it off. Which is why he ranks low considering the alternatives (such as punisher who is always consistently getting value no matter the rank because of how easy he is to use).
@@Supboi the jeff analogy is off, as getting a 6 person ult (ive literally never gotten it once) relies on the enemies being bad, while dodging/countering ults with C&D is reactionary and is purely based on your own skill more appropriate comparison would be adam warlock, he is pretty atrocious without proper cooldown management and timing, but he is still incredibly good (i just soloq'd him from p3 to d3) quick edit: you absolutely CAN base a tier list on potential, other characters reach the same, or even higher level than spiderman, given the same level of skill. thats essentially what the tier list is about, how EASY it is to achieve the BEST potential. ex: scarlet witch isnt very good, but shes incredibly easy to play? vs someone like psylocke, who is pretty difficult, but has crazy potential/output
I’m currently a C&D main, people just need to get better in order for the right click value to actually be tiered properly. I have a feeling that the right click may just become the next kiri suzu lmao
personally i think cloak and dagger has the potential to be the most aggressive healer when needed, i cant count how many time i was flanked by spiderman,iron fist,magik and black panthers and as cloak/dagger i actually had the option to fight them and not melt the second they touch me like every other support, and people never expect cloak/dagger to dive into your backline, i cant count the times i dash in with ult, the enemy healer/dps challenges me, and they realize that when they are at like a quarter hp and cant get away while im still full hp eating all their damage like its nothing that they lost the fight, it makes the enemy team either focus attention on me, that would let my other team mates do stuff, or ignore me and let me pick off an enemy or two while my team benefits from infinite hp in my ultimate, and thats not even mentioning the cloak invincibility that will let you and your team escape from any ultimate in game, the main reason i used cloak is to see jeff's despair when they ult but all they eat is my smoke
Agreed. The ult is so OP for pushing or holding objective. I think the downside is your team needs to know how to play with you. I think C&D scales with your comms.
I would say CD is A tier, I think her healing output is insane when done right. The ult is also quite good for pushing when people understand how it works. Like you said shes pretty good at dealing with flankers and picking off low HP targets and whoever is caught out.
"like every other support" seems like you have only played cloak and dagger because trust me mantis and Luna do not self destruct upon getting jumped Legit I once had a game where a Spiderman was targeting me as mantis and the only way he killed me was with his ultimate Why? Because mantis is good at healing and damage She can legit 3 shot everyone with a headshot Combine that with a self damage boost And you will deal a lot of damage This just shows how dumb cloak and dagger players are They always think other supports can't defend themselves even though the 2 beat ones can easily Luna too can easily defend herself legit I once had a game where I went 25-2 with Luna
Big disagree on Cloak and Dagger, made it to Diamond (and still climbing) just with them. There's so many times where my team can't kill the enemy, that it feels good to have a character that can do both well: do damage and heal. I'm usually MVP most games, with most elims, or same elims as my dps, while still doing 30k in heals. It's actually insane. It feels like the do it all character
Right there with you. Been grinding to diamond just with Cloak and Dagger, just an all around good character. Being able to protect yourself when in the back and actually push in the front as a healer makes it crazy fun
pushed to grandmaster 2 with only cloak and dagger with a 80% win rate, i can say this champ is absolutely overpowered in the right scenarios. iron man ult? no problem cloak right click and everyone’s invulnerable, magneto ult? right click. every burst ult in the game is effectively countered and on top of that you can easily 1v1 any other support with the blind and damage boost that it gives
Do you guys have any tips for Cloak and Dagger? I'm diamond right now playing mostly flex support/tank in a 4man stack and for some reason I can't perform well with that hero. I always feel like I reach the ceiling with C&D because of the auto aim, but Mantis/Luna feel more rewarding the better you play (when they are not banned) and I can output more healing and burst damage while also having a CC and coordinate the ultimate better with my team.
@@Snow-Order66so a good thing you can do if you have good dps is just heal then quickly switch and throw the ability that throws the purple square thing and switch back instantly for some extra damage. Also if it’s just you alive you can throw down your healing sphere and then switch and it’ll stay and you can dps while getting som heals while you pray your team makes it back in time
The fact that he knew I skipped to the end of the video is so funny lmao I funnier thing is I went back and watched the whole video to get his explanation before seeing that part lmao
I would say Peni's pretty slept on. Sure the spider nest is a huge part of her kit and it's a complete noobtrap, but her 3s web stun is also massively underused. Barely see anyone in comp lobbies use that stun and it shuts down a bunch of ults. If you get an insane Peni player with amazing reaction times and flicks, you can shut down a good amount of ults in the game. Psylocke, Strange, Peni, Bucky, Star Lord, etc. She's great anti-dive not just because of her spider nest, but because she can stun any divers and peel easily. Other vanguards can do it, but not with a 3s cooldown ability.
The value in c&d ult is the zoning aspect. It charges faster than luna and mantis ult so you can force a fight on objective that favors your team before they can ult trade.
@@CowKirbo The ult does 30dps and stacks per layer that they stand in. on cp maps you can set up a 90dps aoe that covers most of the point. then you add cloak's 75dps attack and the +20% damage taken debuff from terror cloak you can easily do 200 dps solo in ult while you get 660 hps in ult from triple stack.
Waiting for the UPDATED Updated Tier List (UPDATED) from all the creators in the next coming months LMAO. All jokes aside, it is cool seeing how the meta is evolving as the game moves through its infancy stages.
@@french_toast223 I'm annoyed at Flats ranking all the 'sleeper picks' low because he either doesn't read their ability tooltips or is following the herd whilst also saying they have high skill caps, so that when he makes the next tierlist, he can just take credit for predicting the sleeper picks were always good and everyone said he was delusional. Same song and dance every list.
@0vrsa0 no, that pronunciation was a creation for black panther: wakanda forever. The director said that they wanted to change the origin of his name to something that better fit the tone of the film so they had one of the Spaniards in his backstory call him Namõr which roughly translates to no-love. This was also the reasoning behind making him Aztec instead of atlantian, also bc they didn't wanna use Atlantis bc they didn't want people thinking they just copied Aquaman when in reality Namor existed first.
@ whoops i thought that theory was just fanmade headcannon. my bad. Ive ready a few runs with namor before but never really focused on him until BP 2 and Marvel Rivals. thx for the correction
@0vrsa0 np man, a channel I recommend to any comic fan is called new rockstars. They break down everything comic related and I can't recommend them enough
I think Cap is actually pretty decent below diamond. Him and Thor can be hyper aggressive at that rank together. The teamup gives him so much damage and kill potential. Also, he has a support ult pretty much. I find him to be really useful when we have like a rocket/adam or jeff or something. Which happens a lot at those ranks. He makes up for the lack of defensive supp ults with his own. He cant do a ton of damage, but if you use your cds right, you can distract, bait abilities, and once you get really good at your shield, reflect certain ults. Hes really annoying for groots to deal with because they’re scared of losing ult. Since theres no bans, he can reliably dive hawkeyes and helas REALLY well. They’re scared to shoot at his shield because of the deflect. Supports are more inconsistent, so you have kill potential even without the teamup. He does start to falloff, and he’s really REALLY bad against certain comps (Peni destroys him). But I would say he’s really good at what hes good at. Maybe C is still fair, but I personally think hes B at those ranks
Yea I barely die with cap, you can tell who the bad ones are because they stick around too long. There’s no stat for being a disruptor unfortunately, but if there were he’d be S tier. You can’t put a price on distracting the healers from their team and I have had a lot of success against the Hawkeyes of the world. When you do well with him it makes people wonder how you even won because his stats at the end are average at best, but my answer would be “because I’m a gigantic piece of shit” lmao
Cap is really interesting because he is a disruptor, kind of like Sombra in OW1: The point isn't to get kills, its to mess with the enemy team and ruin their strategies while maybe picking off a few weaklings if you have the opportunity
I feel like people sleep on Rocket's left-click far too much, mostly because of how hard it is to hit at any kind of distance. If you're relatively close to the target though, like maybe you're playing up with the tank or you got dived, it goes crazy. Its less a mini-gun and more a 193 dps shotgun that can headshot.
Exactly this, his damage falloff and slow projectiles makes everyone think his damage isn’t great, meanwhile if you’re playing Rocket and you get dove by a venom, you can force him to use his shield and sometimes even kill him before he even gets you low, Rocket is stupidly good in close quarters
@@fanaria2469 Not saying to only use his left click, but if a dive hero is pushing you or you want to just jump a tank, he can be a very excellent dive support. Not only his orbs will stay after he shoots them, but he does massive damage. So please, before saying something like that, how about you read the comment correctly as it’s not “Just shoot as it’s OP.”
Peni main here: I think flat is wrong for a simple reason being she’s team dependent. Essentially a squad catalyst. Peni as a tank is simply bad as her only tank quality is the larger health, but she has no defense capabilities to mitigate damage. BUT she’s superb truly shines when her squad is capable (vigilant effective heals, actual defensive tank, and kill hungry damage). The reasons are simple: •For healers the big spider is chunky enough to be distracting and easy to heal even in harsh burst damage. •The nest creates a protective zone for tank to maintain their ground or be protected from the flanks. •DPS thrive on crippled enemies that enter the zone. Her issue is she’s very strategic and team dependent. Most players cannot do that to an effective degree and do she looks like an overgrown toddler. By comparison I’m mvp in near every game (even gold ranks) because i can thrive with a good coverage, and I’m not a pro player. It’s and enough that effective enemies will actively target my nest of me first (even to a degree of several ults)
yes lol I'm in plat and whenever there's flankers ljke starlord, spiderman, psylocke, wolverine etc. you can completely lock them down, she's not the best solo tank, but I've won games just off of standing behind my supps and setting up bombs on flank angles
You let them targer the nest? I stand in front of it body blocking if they found the nest LOL to the point the next match all players ignored everyone else except me.
@ no one lets them target the nest but the giga web is pretty hard to ignore. That’s why i said she requires a bit of strategy because you need it in a open enough area to work and covered from range fire.
iron fist and spider man in low ranks are top tier. People don't look back when they dive the backline, no one protects you, they just annihilate you in 1v1 or 1v2 at most and just go away unpunished.
Was about to say the same thing. I only play quick match with stuttering FPS, so it might as well be the same thing as low rank. On one hand, the backline typically doesn't ping people that dive them, so everyone else remains unaware when they die. On the other hand, duelists and vanguards will see there's no supports and run to get a healthpack at 1HP, only to get uppercut by a Spiderman out of nowhere, or there's an Iron Fist or Wolverine waiting around the corner. It'd be a different story if they did, or if people actually enabled the audio cues for dead teammates in their settings.
@@KnucklesWTD i find in my games iron fists and spidermen to consistently get more value than even top tier duelists, heck, i've seen much more spidermen pop off than helas. Even if i know they are there and trying to dive, and i play close to my team, they just shoot splash punch pow and i'm dead, and no one wants to pressure them, then spiderman just ults the backline and walks away with a 3k. Iron fist is even more consistent, just diving on the supports, our tanks and other dps are just in narnia when that happens, i'm like the only one seeing this happen and trying to combo them as winter soldier or trying to line up a good shot with hawkeye, he just either kills the support or kills me and either gets away or trades every times. So much value every fight. They only struggle when there are 3 people on them or our tank is on them.
i think alot of people also have the misconception that in high ranks if a flanker shows up people turn to help. that is typically only the off tank helping and most of the times not even that. supports are mostly left to fend for themselves and kite back to their team so they cant get redove. if ur team turns around to do with a flank ur giving them WAY to much value for simply being alive. if im playing panther and im distracting 5 of u while being 1/6 im doing my job.
Rocket's right click can be clutch. Just save his ammo for finishing off low health targets when your team is good on health and it will really help pick apart the enemy team.
Also as a gold player currently I def agree with your tier list altho star lord and iron man can still be good cuz people really can't dps or just don't play S-A tier heros (yes low elo players are not versatile and 1 trick)
1:34 “We weren’t entirely sure if it [hero bans] was in ranked or just the tournament modes” He says despite the game telling you hero bans are in ranked.
@@scotttimbrell8632 "Some Hulk player told me this, it could be misinformation, you get ult charge when they shoot ur shield". It says it right there in the 1 sentence description lol.
@@kilianbalter We should be all well aware that flats cant read or talk. He emphasises words so fucking wrong that it hurts my ears....its just not how a functional sentence is meant to be said.
Could not disagree more about the cloak and dagger take. I think theyre being slept on hard, and theyre getting the wolverine treatment. They not only off solid damage but, cloaks screen thing, makes enemies more vulnerable to damage, hit a diving tank with it or when a team groups up and it helps push them back out. Theyre ult heals and damages so it helps to either push a point or keep a hold of it. Dagger has auto tracking shots and if you learn how to fuck with it a bit, not only can you get some tight heals off, you can sort out annoying dps characters like Iron Man. Ive also been testing cloaks phase out thing, and the first second of it makes people intangible, so any attack or ult that needs to directly target someone, like Wanda, then it nullifies her ult, because it cant find a target. Im still testing to see what it works against, but thats what Ive personally found at least, plus its a speed boost, so I pop it when we need to scatter from an ult. Her bubble has allowed me to straight up out dps an iron fist who is bullying me, even some tanks. I bubble, go cloak, and hit them with the screen, then start using cloaks basic attack to melt them. If I start to lost, phase out to leave back to my team. I think as people learn their skill set and where they belong on the team, she'll be more popular, but right now people pick her as a joke sort of. I know its anecdotal, but Im in gold 2 atm and Ive gone games where I have like 20k healing and also 30ish kills. Granted alot of those are probs assists or just the final hit, but they are kill steal and assist masters.
Part of the reason widow is slightly better below diamond is also because Hawkeyes not being banned and her team of ability with Hawkeye is just his ultimate on a cool down
For Rocket Raccoon, I don't see a lot of people talk about how great his mobility is. He can climb walls, dash, and glide. And these abilities, if used well, can get you out of some sticky situations.
Nevermind his great mobility, I never see anyone say anything good about his gun. It's incredible for anti-dive with how much damage it does to tanks like Venom and Hulk who try to jump in to harass the back line. The damage falloff starts at 10m, so it was purposefully designed to be really devastating up close
My issue with Mantis is in quick play, and where I'm at in ranked (gold), they never try to heal. They just damage boost themselves and go for dps numbers
@forwardmoving8252 "Yall dps" I commented this with 18 hours on Luna and 25 on Strange. I have below 4 hours on dps. I am now at 36 with Luna and 34 with Strange and in Diamond 1. I still stand by what I said
the problem with magik is you have a flanker who isn't as mobile as the rest of the flankers so it's more all in with your engages BUT you also don't have the damage to make up for the fact that you don't have the mobility to really disengage, so then any combo or attempt at a kill you try will just get hilariously out healed with very little effort. Gameplay for magik past a certain point just turns into tank bullying with the minions because she's so fucking abysmal at securing kills with her combos. Not to mention her E dash is hilariously inconsistent and will straight up go through people half the time and that's like the CORE ability to her combo. Also high elo players just go namor and your hero immediately becomes useless.
Not entirely true. The problem with Magik is she doesn't have a good disengage. So with that you are right. You are also right to point out that she's not a flanker. Which most melees aren't really. They're "dive" characters. Flankers are those that need awkward angles to dish out damage, but not necessarily be in the middle of enemy lines (Moon Knight, Psylocke) But Magik is not a flanker. She's a diver. And divers are the ones that go inside enemy lines (Iron Fist, Spiderman, BP, Magik) So you're right to say she's a bad flanker, but that's because she's a diver. Not a flanker. Her main weakness is really that she has bad disengage. One thing you are completely wrong about however, is that Magik has some of the highest burst damage potential in melee champions. You can compare the total damage output she can deal with her full combo (with animation cancelling) than that of Spider-Man which is fixed at 280. She can deal 300+ damage in a span of 1-2 second. Which is kinda disgusting. She's simply too hard to play. She reminds me of Riven in League
@@remveel2443 she straight up can't do that kind of damage. I can do the best combo of my life and it can get out healed instantly by an adam clicking E, a luna hitting her shots, or them simply getting a mantis seed. Also divers and flankers are the same thing. You go on the backline, and you usually take a flank to get there because you aren't about to just face tank your engage.
@@Westbrook__ just wrong tho. You can flank and not dive. Psylocke is perfect example of that, theres rarely a reason to dive, ur fine just holding an off angle. Starlord is a pure flanker, he cant dive for shit, but he has infinite vertical and horizontal mobility allowing him to shoot from anywhere. Magik on the other hand, wtf does she do on a flank? How does she get there, and why wouldnt she just dash thru the tanks into the backline with her invulns? Waiting to dive from a flank is very different to being a flanker, the latter is able to apply pressure, the former just all ins and either kills or dies.
@kklap3219 my point is literally both can do both. My point is it’s nitpicking terms. It doesnt matter. Especially when the topic of conversation, magik, is both a diver and a flanker. You wouldn’t face tank with magik so you don’t eat unnecessary damage. Yea you have invul while tping, but you don’t before or after it so you want to surprise people, not let them know “hey im here” especially with how shit her disengage is.
Storm is such an awkward character. She's an aerial character, but she prefers to be near ground level because her primary attack pierces. But her damage fall off is so sharp that the piercing doesn't really do much. Her purpose seems to be a damage battery with her lightning field and she watches the backs of her teammates from what I've seen, and waits for enemy supports to throw out their ults for her to ult clear the enemy backline.
A bit awkward but she actually is very useful when ur team doesn’t lose their marbles the moment people see her get picked because of tierlists like this. The only the thing that is not in tandem with her kit is the sphere aura otherwise she’s a great character in need of a few damage buffs.
@@juritudi57yearsago59 in need of an m1 rework*. Literally make her 2 forms (wind and storm) do different things. As of right now it's inting if you leave her on wind mode for anything except ooc. Her m1 is a joke and the only good thing she has is the burst potential her storm shift gives. Storm has really good pathways to go into but as of now she needs a rework (or a proper team up in s2, Thor ability is a joke lmao)
Imo she's insanely good, perfect when you just need to push or defend an objective, she enables the team in such a huge way, and her piercing damage is still useful once it adds up. Plus her ult is extremely dangerous in a tight space. But she's extremely boring to play, and SHOULD be played near ground level, but most people just go really high for no reason and get dropped lmao
Rocket is goated, man. I love him so much. Not just because I play Punisher a lot, but because I've seen good Rockets put out twice the healing of any other healer in the same match. It's *wild* how much his healing gets slept on.
People think because he has low HPS it means he has bad healing, like no, Rocket may not have any good burst healing but what he does have is consistent healing for everybody on the map
@Wastelander1337 he really isnt. They do fine even with no bounce. They slow down while healing. In a big group they won't even get a bounce. The bounce is just useful for shooting around corners.
Everyone bow to Wolverine now 😂 And it's nice that people are realizing abducting tanks is the meta to destroy supports. Because they can't chase after their tanks getting abducted because Wolverine perfectly did his job to disrupt formation
@@COA5Tyes but the point is you might *need* good positioning to kill some characters. You obviously wouldn't need good positioning for a tank unless you're killing them with Wolverine
i think people are sleeping on cloak and dagger's best ability which is cloak's cloaking ability...you can save your team from your 90% of ults in the game and it has such a huge range...it gives basically a 2s invincibility for everyone in range
@@sockinvaders Cloak can go invisible and become untargetable. It works on his whole team but will almost never happen because it breaks if they attack. It's pretty gnarly against things like Scarlet Witch ult though where you have time to tell your team to stop attacking.
The thing is…. HOW many people will you save… unless you’re in chat and you don’t have people that KNOW C&D like that… that’s where it becomes a different story.😊
You know the Dev who was cooking on Wolverines kit was just laughing when they saw Wolverine getting ranked low on Tier Lists. Dude is literally a walking Wood Chipper.
I still love penny trends to shut down Jeff ult whenever he eats me. Putting your nest in a corner or a tighter area tends to burst down melee characters a lot
evolving meta is awesome. Love when games first come out and we begin to see each character's respective niches and potentials. This is made even better by the 'team-ups'. This game has a toooon of potential.
I’ve played with Peni Parker as Winter Soldier and have made amazing one shot combos with bucky’s hook to pull enemies into Peni’s Mines, it was such a dominating combo cause we were picking off every enemy so fast.
I think peni’s playstyle shifts in higher ranks and is really good when used properly. In low ranks she plays the mine cheese strat, looking for those one shot mine clusters for people who mindlessly press w. In higher ranks you just spam mines on cooldown and focus on webbing the carries and healers so your dps can easily pick them off. Webs low cooldown hard cc is slept on.
19:50 As a storm player, she offers some great utility, but it isnt really felt by her teamates. In a coordinated team, she can absolutely get work done. She works a bit like a 3rd support, anf hanging around a punisher or moon knight with damage boost can help them out more than theu realize. Storm is also pretty good into dive, if she can get 3 people in empowerd damag aura, her ult charges like crazy. That ult can wipe 3-4 people before they know wha thit then. She also can be very good when your team is like 5 dps 1 healer type situation. This obviously depends if your teamates are actually good, but amping the speed and damage of the most moblie and damage dealing role comes in handy. Her problems are mostly that she doesn't have enough movement speed (even with speed aura), feeling like her damage is low (when it's actually pretty potent), and her impact not being felt by her teamates.
I agree with all takes here, she is anti dive, she still needs a damage buff or no fall off. Her kit is great aside from the speed. Slowing enemies actually slow them down and her teammates get faster but it’s not enough at times.
Ctrl+Shift+T brings up the last tab you closed, and you can press it multiple times for more closed tabs, for the future since it looked like you closed the old tier list video tab that you wanted to keep open for cross-reference
As a D1 Magik player when I don't get target banned I almost always get value cause she's actually really versatile. treating her as a 3rd tank she can take space by portaling past tanks into a one shot combo or hold 1 portal and use the second to put her demon out and hold space really really well. Her main constraint is she HAS to have natural cover or she dies immediately and has to know what her tanks are doing so she's not left to die defending cart. On convoy she's really strong cause she can just shove her face into cart, take ranged potshots that do 100 dmg on a 5 second CD, and beat the absolute dogshit out of tanks that try to push her off with demon and melees. In domination maps she's a bit harder to pull off but if you just hold hands with the tanks and dash in on squishies that get close you'll get good value, or you can be the support babysitter for anti dive. Her ult is also nuts, walk behind a pillar while the animation is happening and if you do a portal left click into uppercut and hit it instantly deletes 250hp enemies. You get enough time in ult to do it twice, and if they run you can full charge a 200dmg ranged attack. She's slower than BP by a mile which sucks, but he does 12 things for 250 dmg, magic does 3 things for the same value and can go toe to toe with tanks (Except awakened thor he rips me apart with haste.) The i frames are also nuts, a half second of immunity every 6 seconds mitigates an insane amount of dmg and playing as a chokepoint guard dog generates so much shield it. don't think she's S tier, but I think most people haven't figured out the proper playstyle to use with her. it hurts my soul when people play her as a bad dive character/flanker instead of tank lite. (If you want an absolutely stupid comp that works surprisingly well if you ban iron man, running 3/1/2 with Magik is so much frontline damage the enemy tanks just fold 3 seconds into every single fight.) Apologies for the essay, Magik is my favorite dps and I love geeking out about her.
Dagger main here in Diamond. Dagger is amazing in triple support but still viable in most games (can't speak to GM and above). Something I recently learned is Dagger's left click can heal multiple people if they're standing close together. If you get dove and you're next to your other support, heal and stay near your other support and you'll heal yourself as well.
Hulk's bubble is great for getting at least 3 percent, potentially 15 or more, in one bubble. It's somewhat similar to Wolverine in that your ult builds faster through the bubble. My personal tip is to have a melee character like Thor or Wolverine right beside you, pop bubble and harass the tanks together to build ult with damage as the both of you get damaged, building even more ult for Hulk. Hopefully Flats sees this, maybe he already picked this up, maybe it's not too great for higher ranked matches idk. But i figured I'd share
I got the Squirrel Girl achievement with the ult. Only 1 percent of the players have it as of a few days ago. I agree. She ain’t menacing but when you get a couple trapped in the right click and they just evaporate, it’s the best.
I've played her quite a bit in rank as well (diamond) whenever I dont have be a tank or support, I think she has a lot of support-hybrid potential. Also her ultimate is just nuts, you can consistently double kill both healers in the backline and then push towards your team while still in tornado.
I wish her "speed" actually did what it said it supposed to do cause movement feels VERY similar with it on or off... Also pretty sure she has control over ALL weather so it baffles me that she only has lighting and air AND has to reload her primary attack?... Like what? But Peni P doesn't? Makes zero sense.
I’m a GM storm main and she’s extremely underrated and super underutilized. Giving your entire team a constant damage boost while also having a game changing ult is insane. You’ll rarely ever do top damage but that’s not really the purpose of playing Storm. You know you did well when you’ve got 30 kills and 30 assists every game and your entire team did double damage compared to the enemy team.
Thats kinda true but you need to add that hes S tier ONLY when there is a hulk in the team AND hela and hawkeye are banned Yeah he kinda needs a buff or just gotta wait till hawkeye and hela get nerfed
@@batteryshower4714 i mean yeah thats extremely dumb but since in and anove diamond hawkeye and hela are banned most of the time it seems then his 2 main counter are banned so he skyrockets and when the enemy team doesnt have Punisher and you have hulk the iron man becomes almost as good as hela or maybe a bad hawkeye So yeah its bs but yay S tier iron man am I right? Definetely not a weak character that requires many odds to be stacked in his favour to actually keep up or perform above average
I kinda like how the perception of certain heroes shifts completely once you get into A) Higher lobbies because people actually reach the skill ceiling and B) Hero bans force you to adapt to entirely new and always changing situations. It's really refreshing to see and I hope they balance that well in the future.
I’ve dedicated about 5 hours to playing Spider-Man to learn him, and it became apparent in 2 hours what his problem is: his walking and air speed is too low. Surprisingly SPIDER-MAN of all characters, an assassin Hero, has a hard time sticking to people once he’s in. You have a fat chance of weaving in Auto Attacks most of the time bc 1) they won’t connect more than 75% of the time, and 2) it almost messes up his flow since uppercut is so good and is a a lot of dmg Like, sure they can easily just reduce his CDs a little bit, but thats probably just gonna make him insufferable to play against. Give him more sticking power with his movement speed or more range on his punches so he can actually weave one in his combos, then he becomes an A tier at least
The Uppercut is Aoe circle around spiderman, you don't have to be close, also use swing t get closer and hit target. but flankers depends on how good the rest of the team. if all of them dead?or weak offense , you wont be able to d anything sadly as flanker. that is the main issue.
I have some ideas as a Spider-Man player. Cut animation lockouts for attaching and detaching from wall climbing. Change keybinding for running on walls or set it to auto/toggle. Increase horizontal movement for double jump air attack. Give him another tracer. Split cooldown of web pull (he has reload key free) or lower cooldown on miss.
@@djb1928 Dead wrong, that would be Psylocke. Black Panther also can shield himself, while Spider-Man only has his mobility. I don't think he needs buffs though, I enjoy underdog heroes with finesse playstyles.
As a Peni main, for defense only, she is great against most close range combat. Black panther, iron fist, wolverine, spider-man, etc will be demolished by the mines because they aren't cautious especially with traps set up on out of the way doorways. As a MoonKnight main I agree flanks are the only way to really excel but people are wring about his ult. It is good because it is built so fast. Want to get that Luna ult out? THE MOON HAUNTS YOU. Hold a choke? THE MOON HAUNTS YOU. People expect ults to kill or provide safety but moonknight's is versatile in it's functions making it good due to the frequency if the moonknight plays advantageously
@@yotemgote Depends on the map and enemy team composition like most heroes. I've used her quite effectively on offense lots of times (i'm in diamond so I can't speak for higher ranks though). Also Peni has the highest win rate of any tank for a reason. She's a great character imo. edit: Apparently Peni's winrate has dropped since I last checked to 2nd. Hulk now claims that title.
Only works is the enemies are clueless. You can bait mines by literally walking forward and back lol. Agile characters like BP can use dash to bait all if out too. At Grandmaster above your potential to shut down ultimate and dives with your right click is the reason use her. Mines are okayish
@NinjapowerMS your peni doesn't set the traps correctly if they are so easy to bait then and most movement abilities leave sort of like an after image if animation isn't complete
Flats hear me out on Cloak and Dagger There’s a lot of good teamups and synergies with other strategists but Cloak and Dagger are just as strong and maybe will be more favorable when they eventually get a team up. They can sub in for any combo and pop off cause let me summarize what they bring to the table: Discord (20% damage boost) Blind Healing boost (too lazy to check percentage but increases heals on targets hit by heal wall) A suzu that can just save an entire team from an ult A heal bubble that can heal multiple teammates or help you survive one v ones with dives or just increase survivability in general Op ult that gives up to 660 per second healing (enough to just stare down a punisher ult and be perfectly fine) and creates space. This is all in one character making them still underrated cause people just don’t understand every part of the kit completely. Once everyone understands and your team stops running away from her ult or understand the blinded enemies take extra damage or to stop running away from the heal bubble then they can do so much to carry a team. Low ranks they are probably C maybe low B but high ranks should be hitting S with hero bans and possibly top pick when they create a team up to incentive them if you argue the adam warlock team up.
Storm is quite slept on, especially in diamond ranks with hero bans for the following reasons: 1. If you ban Hawkeye and Hela, there aren't really that many good counters anymore 2. If you ban Luna Snow, you can easily use your ultimate most of the time to wipe the enemy's backline without it being countered every 20 seconds by Luna's ultimate 3. She's an excellent counter to brawler characters and in general in 1v1s because of her kit which strikes lightning to nearby enemies. She can greatly help the backline deal with flankers 4. Like Zen in Overwatch, if you're good enough, you can spam her ultimate every 30-40 seconds. The more enemies in your circle taking damage from your ability, the more direct hits on aligned enemies (piercing multiple enemies damage), if she teams up with thor gives her extra ability that bounces off enemies making damage to multiple ones. You can easily recharge your ultimate. 5. Her ultimate is a really strong AOE damage that can regain control over point, end overtime, or deal with Loki's healing ability when people are gathered around him She works better though in payload maps, in control maps not so much since because she gets more space in terms of actual map space and also teams are more split with people trying to flank or backline staying far at the back to heal etc.
I think you take for granted squirrel girl considering her stun has an antiheal, if you stun luna in her ult, you kill her and boom best ult in the game is down
The problem with squirrel girl is you have to have a basic, baby entry level understanding of the concept of physics because if she isn't constantly hitting people, then she is useless. If she has like a 50% accuracy when it comes to bouncing nuts off walls while hitting people, then she becomes an absolute monster. Expecting any player to have any kind of understanding of physics is just too much to ask. So it's understandable why he gets anxious when people pick her. She always does 20k damage or 4k damage. There's no in-between.
Yeah But what did you expect She's really good Like ridiculously good It's literally just kiriko on crack I myself have been also making mantis and I have like 19 games or comp on her and like 17 won She's insane
Also a mantis main, I think she’s the strongest character in the game rn. She’s basically a 3rd dps with self and team damage boosts, faster running speed, aoe sleep, shorter luna ult, good healing, and she doesnt get target banned every game. Currently on a 22 game win streak playing only Mantis with MVP 90% of the games. She’s so broken.
Hero bans will single handedly keep this game alive. I was literally losing motivation to play after just 2 weeks because hela Hawkeye dribblers everygame was just SO UNFUN to play against. But once I got to diamond HOLY SHIT is the game so much more enjoyable now that they’re perma banned every match
hawkeye is giga busted and its no surprise to see him permabanned, not only is he broken but hes completely anti fun to any competitive game. 1 shots dont deserve a place in any game as for helya i just feel like her ult is way to strong why shes given a wallhack when she presses q truly mind boggles me
@Gan-n9x bro hela’s ult feels reasonable compared to her left click. She can literally do more damage with auto attack headshots than some heroes do with their ults
I primarily play Peni, and I gotta say even w/ mines, I had a game where I was solo tank and the Wolverine still made my life incredibly difficult. Was able to clutch up, but was probably the hardest I’ve worked for a win.
She feels weird to play but honestly I see her mostly as a squishy killer. She's an off-tank not a solo tank. Because you can just throw mines and shoot the healers or pick off dps with 2 mines and some well placed shots. And you're fairly safe against dives with your nest and a stun on 3s cooldown. Pair her with a strange or magnito so she and her nests can't be picked off and she does well. But on her own she drops hard and requires a lot of effort
@ for me she is the most fun to play of any of the tanks. Tanks seem to be underrepresented in my games, so I’m frequently the only one. I have Magneto as a secondary, and have been considering picking up Strange since I know they are the good solo tanks. They both feel worse to play though. Magneto feels like I’m dragging around bricks with how slow and immobile he is, and I just don’t like Strange’s kit enough to put in practice with him. Thankfully I’m still only in Silver 2 so it doesn’t really matter just yet. Just hoping for the release of another solo tank that is fun for me.
@@shmooters5599 yeah in silver she'll do fine (however she's reliant on good healers) but higher and higher up people start respecting her area control and try to pick her off because she doesn't actually have as much in defensive value like groot, strange, magnito or hulk. She's more like a fat dps
Rocket really is undervalued as a healer just bc he can’t burst heal like Luna or AW, but his survivability definitely makes up for it. If you’re sick of getting singled out by dive characters as a strat main try him out. A running rocket is most of the time not worth the effort to track down and kill for most dps players, and bc u live, u out heal other characters from staying alive and being consistent.
It's not just his lack of burst heals his ult is underwhelming compared to other ults its6the only support ult that doesnt heal or do something like res you cant counter anything with it, sure it helps deal more dmg but it's not that valuble
One important point for loki is that technically if he is in a 1v1 against any dps he can kill them easily bc he and his clones are invulnerable with his shift and by the time they kill the rocks they're likely close to dead ive never lost a 1v1 to a psylocke on loki
regarding healers, excluding the ult because you dont have ult every fight unless youre a god, I think cloak and dagger has the greatest healing output. If you are able to use window and bubble with high efficiency i think even including the ult, dagger has higher healing output. the problem, aside from team-ups, is that mantis and luna ult can stop almost any enemy ult in its tracks and thats invaluable counter-play. Dagger ult can keep people alive in a similar manner but teammates have to actually position themselves on the heal while mantis and luna can just walk close to whoever is in need.
23:40 cloak and dagger have good healing and good utility, but having to actually switch characters to use that utility really slows you down and can get your team into dire straights. Most of the time you can only heal bot, so switching and using your blind, which takes time, then switching back to heal just is not super useful. Plus they only have the team up with moon knight
Honestly it’s like spider man. You have to do so much. Manage so much just to be affective on her you might as well just play Luna or mantis or even Adam. I love cloak and dagger but I feel like I have to be on meth to play her cause there’s so much going on!
You're kinda overexaggerating. It's less than a reload to switch characters. If your team is all critical obviously stay Dagger. But if your team is all full HP, and you're just sitting there waiting for someone to heal, switch to Cloak and get some damage, throw out a blind. Your blind is also a straight up 20% damage boost and it can affect multiple targets. Cloak's M2 is also straight up OP with how much it can just casually ignore. Iron Man pulse, Scarlett Witch Ult, Magneto Rock, Bucky ult. You almost always have enough time to switch and M2 when you hear the voicelines too.
@@derpyduck5088 That’s fair. I don’t play the game that much, so those were simply my thoughts on the character. It doesn’t help I’m in a low elo, so my teammates don’t know how to not take a thousand damage per second. I’ll keep that in mind next time I pick the character though.
When the game first came out I put 20 hours on Wolverine, everyone was saying how bad he was. Now he’s high up on everyone’s tier list. I’m calling it with Storm. I’ve been playing her the last few days and my win rate is over 87%. She’s actually super insane at enabling her team, and keeping out divers like spidey, wolverine, and iron fist. She’s also amazing at dueling iron man’s. Since she’s always kind of floating it’s easy to dodge his AoE from his primary fire and with speed boost he’s going to have a hard time landing direct shots. Using speed boost to get your team out of scary ults like Scarlet witch and Pulse is also nutty. Your dps isn’t as high as the other picks, so I make it my job to focus down the deployables like Spider nest, Loki clones, Namor Turrets, Ect.
I think the problem with Bucky is he’s not hitscan. He can’t really contest flyers or duel hela/hawkeye. His value falls off so much if you are out of his range and you combo that with his lack of mobility and easily divable. He can only play good if you can put him in the middle of the team and protect him like Cassidy in overwatch, but he’s got no stun or hitscan burst. He’s got some extra sauce that Cassidy doesn’t have and a better ult, but he does some of the fundamentals way worse than Cassidy.
I consider him anti dive, if a magic, spider man, etc goes in you just hook em and punch and they die He also is a hard counter to penny pulling her away from her mines and deleting her health bar due to her massive head hitbox
Flats doesnt seem to understand how like half the champs work.....all very surface level like he doesnt even mention that Peni just negates almost every S tier hero's ultimate on a 3 second cooldown....
Yeah especially with loki in diamond+ ranks where he is played a lot, its literally free again stack if u need to wait for them to come or you need to wait out their ults or something lol
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No
I love how Spider Man has such a hard kit to master, full of combos and knowing the perfect way to web swing, then his ult is just "Yeah press this button when you're near people and they'll vaporize"
That’s what I love lmao, his tot is like reward for all the hard work you did previously
They have to balance him somehow lol
He can't hardly kill people with his regular kit, lol
@@void_-_siphon20 not true he fucking deletes u if he's good if ur dps
@@QuantumFishFTWcooldown increase if anything. Doesn’t do enough damage to warrant a nerf to
Hero bans helps so much to prevent repetitive matches, mirror matches and opens the opportunity for offmeta heros to shine
prevent reptitive matches? but the bans are literally the same characters xD
And Blizzard will continue to not put it in Overwatch and have us play Duck Duck Goose with Orisa, Hog, Mauga and Widow metas
Helps gatekeep cringe Hela and Hawkeye players who are 2 ranks above were they should be
@@sonicjaxon8107 yes, so you dont see those same characters every match
@@sonicjaxon8107 how much is the same characters? you should go watch MR Championship to see yourself, there are some variety and meme comps.
That's freaking wild how Iron man went from F to S on tier lists with no nerfs or buffs to the roster
Team up is more important than most realize
It's about creativity
people also got used to/ have started keybinding the flyers movement for better control. I played against an iron-man and he was slippery.
@ movement isn’t that important considering how fast good healers can pocket on characters like mantis and dagger. I climbed solo q to plat with only iron fist but now I just play black panther to carry
@@HugeConverseHaving a mantis pocket me in off angles or back lining with me as magik is a joy. Feels like a menace of a combo.
2:35 Doctor Strange
3:27 Hulk
5:05 Magneto
5:22 Thor
6:35 Groot
6:45 Peni
7:45 Captain America
8:32 Black Panther
8:51 Black Widow
9:19 Venom
10:14 Hawkeye / Hela
10:57 Iron Fist
11:14 Iron-Man
13:05 Magik
13:45 Moon Knight
14:29 Namor
15:05 Psylocke
15:30 Punisher
16:04 Scarlet Witch
16:48 Spider-man
17:31 Squirrel Girl
17:58 Star-Lord
19:06 Storm
20:17 Winter Soldier
21:06 Wolverine
22:31 Adam Warlock / Mantis
23:20 Cloak & Dagger (talks about rocket / loki / luna)
25:32 Jeff the Land Shark
26:51 Loki
27:13 Luna Snow
27:21 Rocket the Raccoon
Forgot to add 29:15 Flatz disappointment
thank kind stranger
Bro did all this for 86 likes
Insane
Youll get your flowers one day 😩
It's "Rocket Racoon". Thanks for the time stamp
hearing judge jury executioner is like hearing the trumpets from revelations if you dont have a strange
as both punisher and strange player even with the shield his ult just shreds...
this game provides the true spider-man experience. all your teammates think you’re gonna suck and you have to work harder 2 times harder to do well. just like the comics it’s always an uphill battle of willpower lmao
and just like the comics he never kills anyone either
@ spider-man doesn’t kill
Then you get zero kills because Spider-Man doesn't kill
And you have to play like a super mobile annoying jerk because you can't compete head-to-head with almost anyone so you have to wear them down and catch them off guard.
@@MaidenlessScrubive gone 22 and 0 in comp with him and i usually get more final kills than all my team mates. Im not diamond but he does in fact kill.
Played against a Wolverine and Bucky duo. Y'know how you need to flank and position yourself somehow to successfully kidnap a tank as Wolverine? Gone. Bucky kidnaps you by simply looking at your ginormous tank body and then Wolverine kidnaps you after to maximize kidnapping time.
Hell, maybe they even kidnap different tanks to spread the kidnappings around. It's basically an unofficial team up.
I don't think a single character can be kidnapped by both of them and not die, without some heavy duty healing like a Luna ult
Good I haven’t seen this but that sounds like hell lol
I think the issue with Wolverine is that without his passive he has very low survivability and in lower ranks you'd see more team comps with 3 dps and 1 tank which does make Wolverine a lot less effective. His lunge also has some really weird hitbox which can make it harder to land on smaller characters.
Well that's the way the game is meant to be played. I mean it takes skills to perform perfect combo with your teammate and once you succeed in doing that, it's only natural that you'd be rewarded with a kill.
@@shai310imo, that makes it easier. The tank will die and they will be left with no frontline.
Loki is so underrated I swear, I am so glad people are finally waking up to how strong he can be
Yeah definitely tons of potential for sure, watching this game unravel and evolve is really enjoyable so far.
Yeah like I don’t think people realize that if you have a Luna or mantis you basically have a another defensive ult
Immortality goes a long way
@@masterweapon334 the amount of people who have no clue how his kit works is crazy, like especially when they run out of the green circles like please stay inside you’re unkillable lmao
@@RD-um9dy my favourite thing ever is copying luna and using her ult, had a game today where we had mirror teams and we had 4 luna ults going back to back lol
As a staunch cloak and dagger player I don't see many people utilizing them to the fullest extent, they live and die by 3 major things. 1. Proper ult usage. 2. Target priority/awareness. And 3. Positioning. The auto tracking primary fire on both characters helps you keep the healing consistent but it also bursts on impact so it can hurt enemies at the same time it heals so exploit that to the fullest. As a support you are going to get dived its inevitable and you can't sleep or freeze like luna or mantis so your best bet is to stay aware of divers and switch to cloak for the blind and cloak combo, the cloak ability lets you get limited flight abilities while breaking LoS using the blind screen this lets you reposition basically uncontested. As for the ult, it ends when you die (like most ults) so I think its best to actually switch up your positioning and follow right behind the tanks hit the dome as dagger to carve out a safe zone then ult the point or payload (ideally) as part of the push or to stop a push then you still have cloaks abilities to help increase dmg and get to safety so your ult doesn't get shut down early. And for the love of stan lee when I tell you to stop attacking please stop so I can cloak us and shut down most big splashy ults please I'm begging you I'm tired of trying to save the team from a big threat using the cloak only to have you all break the cloak die and then it's just me facing down the enemy team.
that and I do solemnly swear to stand in your shiny dome of goodness
I have major respect for people who main C&D. I have a rather hard time wrapping my head around their play style despite absolutely loving them and their designs and wanting like them so much. Played a much with a C&D earlier and it was neck and neck but they won us the game. By somehow keeping 2 of us alive while we got bum rushed while the rest of our team was running back.
yes. yes. yes. ESPECIALLY THAT LAST PART. YES. IM TRYING TO SAVE YOU!!
As someone who mains Cap when I tank, I'm glad to hear that getting low damage/kills is common even among the good players lmao. That being said, I've found that Cap's use stems from his ability to stall the fuck out of a game; I've managed to solo cling onto a capture point for a solid 30 seconds during overtime and granted my team the chance to steal the victory
Yeah. As a fellow Cap main, he truly does live out the phrase “I can do this all day” lol.
Hulks bubble is also nice because it blocks some ults. For example, you can fully negate doctor strange's ult if you bubble your team before it hits.
And Jeff
And iron man
I saved 4 teammates from scarlet witch's ult doing that too
Basically every burst ultimate.
And Psylocke's. Hers might be prolonged but it always alternates targets to the ones who have been hit the least.
I have strong suspicion that it gives him ult charge based on the overkill damage rather than the shield Max health.
Yea ive saved so many ppl from jeffs ult. Iron man ults etc. Problem is when the other enemies wait to ult until after you use the bubble. Which a jeff was smart and waited until after I saved me and team from iron man ult and then just swallowed us 😂😂😂
last tier list: iron man is the worst character in the game
this time: so about that...
Green Beam go brrrr
Iron Man Is a team up Merchant When season 1 arrives, the Team Up leaves the game and tony goes back to the mud, unfortunately.
Question for Ironman mains; With free flight, the jet flight, and him having projectiles only, does he feel better on a controler than a keyboard?
Hes not that good
@@aaronolson6736I play exclusively on controller and I find it very easy to play him.
Bro that callout at 29:15 was evil LMAO. Well played got my ass
Mine to
yup .-.
He earned my sub instantly with that one!
He earned my sub instantly with that one!
I just skipped more forward to get through it. Ahole. Lol
The Peni disrespect is still crazy and I will die on the hill saying she is S tier. I think we’ll all feel dumb one day when it’s a Wolverine situation where all the cracked Peni’s start revealing optimal playstyles than just pub stomping on defense.
Peni is 4 star for a reason she is the vanguard that requires the most brain to use. The nest can be played in so many ways. You can put nest behind cover and extend the range with your own webs allowing the nano spiders to go further. You can nest right before you ult to create a long pathway for all those mines to follow. Popping your own nest early can save so much down time and increase up time. I can just go on and on about playing around your nest alone but there’s more to her and you need to play smartly. She can permanently keep bonus health up and move at max speed traversing with nests. You can poke with a the tether nest and pull yourself back to safety.
The point is there’s just so much more than just being the low rank anti dive and defense tank. Eventually I’m sure more people will realize.
I feel like she can only become worse as more people become aware of how she works. It doesnt matter what role Im in I shoot the nest and if you have several people aware of it its going to be rough. There are points where there are no good spots to put the nest even with extending the range. Usually when I hear penni ult I look to shoot the nest and my team already got it. The web stun is good though.
While not C I think S is too high (I'd go lower A, at worse high B) just because it takes time to set up to get the most out of her & on ATK that's extremely difficulty to do, I can see the nest getting a rework in the future so it can function better on attack but until then that's the only thing holding her back that it takes too much time to get her set up.
you're a bot.
think its time to die pal lol, talk to me once you reach eternity w peni alr?
Oh also just throw mines into the supports pretty funny and chunks them allows dps to finsh i hope but not always
I think there is a point to be made about certain heroes really requiring voice comms to play properly.
Black Widow and Hawkeye synergize super well because of the shared ult effect, and Scarlet Witch combo ult with Strange goes super hard - but it requires coordination and timing to pull off.
Moon Knight team up with Cloak and Dagger is really strong. When he makes use of the invisibility he has a good amount of time to just spam shots into a team fight and stress out the healers. Giving Cloak/Dagger a +15% healing boost is a big deal. Cloak is one of the best roaming supports because of the dual nature to her kit. She can pocket heal a diver really well, and Cloak gives her solid options to amp damage and reposition with E and right-click. She’s also great at healing flyers because of the homing heals. Trying to heal a mobile Iron Man or Starlord with Luna is a pain in the ass.
Lastly, I think the combo of Jeff and Iron Man is actually super nasty. Jeff’s right click and Iron Mans left click both have similar splash area so if they just bully anybody caught out in the open.
Peni is slept on, she has a 3 sec cooldown on an ability that stops most ults which is huge if you have the skill to hit your webs
Her web slinging is awesome. I have terrible aim yet probably hit 50% or more thanks to it's decent hit box. Stopping alts is huge, she's not well appreciated on this list. I think you have to main her first to understand fully her potential.
Fr her stun is crazy good. She can dominate games
Good trap and nest placement or sometimes flanking and being a self healing tank with nest behind the opponent team can go so hard
Did you not even watch the damn video
Flats himself said peni was niin bait
Sure she has a 4 seconds stun but other than that she's easily dealt with because she's so damn slow
@ireallydontknow278 her being "slow" isn't a valid argument when every character except like... 3 travel at the same speed
So she's literally not slow at all, she actually has better mobility than some others cause of how she's able to wall run and has the web snatch
as a day 1 namor player its nice to see people finally recognize how good he can be once u learn his kit
For reallll. If you don't have Hela, Namor is THE anti-air defense
Any of the high tier play I've seen he's been one of the most banned characters. Really like him even though I'm terrible 😂
Same. Glad he and Spidey are my mains!
Probably the go to #1 dive counter too
It sucks that he’s a good pick no matter the elo cuz playing against him as spidey is so ass 😭
7:05 as a wolverine main.. that whole rant was 100% accurate.
Do you make the noise too?
@ almost always. Playing Wolverine is so infuriating that you find yourself playing him very.. “lore accurate” at times.
@@shadow12kthe noise is a job requirement fr
When you play wolverine enough you become an actual snarling predator with a height complex@@shadow12k
When you play wolverine enough you become an actual snarling predator with a height complex@@shadow12k
Skip the ad to 1:20
You gotta start with the timestamp of where the ad starts or else TH-cam doesn’t show this until the timestamp at the end of the ad
I've had Cloak and Dagger Lord Proficiency since the first week. I love how offensive and defensive you can be. My last game of the night was 41/2/37 with 17k dmg and 45k heals. I do see people that don't play them very well and I feel in time when people learn they could be a scary character
Agreed, I honestly also feel like she is the best pick if you get stuck solo healing. She can put out consistent heals in multiple areas with her dagger bubble and healing shield as well as saving herself (and potentially the whole team) with Cloak and help win fights with the blind/debuff shield too. She can be so powerful if you use her full kit effectively
How the hell u getting 45k HEALS? how long did that match last
@soph6539 I play Cloak only when it's to evade, counter ults, throw out his blinding wall at groups or to do some killing when needed. Otherwise I am always Dagger, and with her I'm throwing darts like crazy during the fight, but I also like to throw the bubble to heal teammates on the other side of walls or if they are on a floor above me. I use her ult and bubble to push the points and when I see my tanks both getting destroyed I'll dash towards them with it, towards the point, then towards a group of enemy's, switch to Cloak, throw wall and try killing before my ult runs out if my team is okay enough to live. But I'm constantly looking for heals and seeing if there are anyone flying that needs health or enemys that need to be ticked by her darts to scare them a bit. The game itself was like 9 min or so.
My argument for C&D is that most of the ultimates in S Tier are countered by Cloaks right click, and every one that isn't (Punisher, Luna, Mantis, Hela) you can trade ult for ult for as a counter.
exactly this. Hell, the timing is hard depending on team coordination but if the enemy does a support ult, the right click is enough to live it out and then chain into your own ulti.
Really quick here, you can trade Ult for Ult on any support not just C&D and usually people don't stay in her ult for some reason I don't know.
And also her ult is not that powerful compared to Luna snow or Mantis due to it being a "Sustain" vs "DMG output" fight.
I feel as though Flat's is basing it off "Average value" rather than "Potential value" because you are correct, C&D can easily dodge and counter some ultimates
However they don't do it often which is why she's not that exceptional.
It's like saying Jeff is S tier because he once killed all 6 enemies at once. Yeah that's possible but it doesn't happen often.
Which is why you can't base a tier list on "potential". Otherwise Spiderman would be S+ and dominating the meta but most people don't have that skill level to pull it off. Which is why he ranks low considering the alternatives (such as punisher who is always consistently getting value no matter the rank because of how easy he is to use).
@@Supboiwell said 😁
@@Supboi the jeff analogy is off, as getting a 6 person ult (ive literally never gotten it once) relies on the enemies being bad, while dodging/countering ults with C&D is reactionary and is purely based on your own skill
more appropriate comparison would be adam warlock, he is pretty atrocious without proper cooldown management and timing, but he is still incredibly good (i just soloq'd him from p3 to d3)
quick edit: you absolutely CAN base a tier list on potential, other characters reach the same, or even higher level than spiderman, given the same level of skill. thats essentially what the tier list is about, how EASY it is to achieve the BEST potential. ex: scarlet witch isnt very good, but shes incredibly easy to play? vs someone like psylocke, who is pretty difficult, but has crazy potential/output
I’m currently a C&D main, people just need to get better in order for the right click value to actually be tiered properly. I have a feeling that the right click may just become the next kiri suzu lmao
personally i think cloak and dagger has the potential to be the most aggressive healer when needed, i cant count how many time i was flanked by spiderman,iron fist,magik and black panthers and as cloak/dagger i actually had the option to fight them and not melt the second they touch me like every other support, and people never expect cloak/dagger to dive into your backline, i cant count the times i dash in with ult, the enemy healer/dps challenges me, and they realize that when they are at like a quarter hp and cant get away while im still full hp eating all their damage like its nothing that they lost the fight, it makes the enemy team either focus attention on me, that would let my other team mates do stuff, or ignore me and let me pick off an enemy or two while my team benefits from infinite hp in my ultimate, and thats not even mentioning the cloak invincibility that will let you and your team escape from any ultimate in game, the main reason i used cloak is to see jeff's despair when they ult but all they eat is my smoke
Agreed. The ult is so OP for pushing or holding objective. I think the downside is your team needs to know how to play with you. I think C&D scales with your comms.
The easiest support in the game...
I would say CD is A tier, I think her healing output is insane when done right. The ult is also quite good for pushing when people understand how it works. Like you said shes pretty good at dealing with flankers and picking off low HP targets and whoever is caught out.
"like every other support" seems like you have only played cloak and dagger because trust me mantis and Luna do not self destruct upon getting jumped
Legit I once had a game where a Spiderman was targeting me as mantis and the only way he killed me was with his ultimate
Why? Because mantis is good at healing and damage
She can legit 3 shot everyone with a headshot
Combine that with a self damage boost
And you will deal a lot of damage
This just shows how dumb cloak and dagger players are
They always think other supports can't defend themselves even though the 2 beat ones can easily
Luna too can easily defend herself legit I once had a game where I went 25-2 with Luna
If you get jumped by flankers and you burn cooldowns, then they already did their job because for me, I am out of there.
Big disagree on Cloak and Dagger, made it to Diamond (and still climbing) just with them. There's so many times where my team can't kill the enemy, that it feels good to have a character that can do both well: do damage and heal. I'm usually MVP most games, with most elims, or same elims as my dps, while still doing 30k in heals. It's actually insane. It feels like the do it all character
Right there with you. Been grinding to diamond just with Cloak and Dagger, just an all around good character. Being able to protect yourself when in the back and actually push in the front as a healer makes it crazy fun
He does mainly talk about the team-up potential lacking. Which I could see I feel like moon Knights teamup isn’t great
pushed to grandmaster 2 with only cloak and dagger with a 80% win rate, i can say this champ is absolutely overpowered in the right scenarios. iron man ult? no problem cloak right click and everyone’s invulnerable, magneto ult? right click. every burst ult in the game is effectively countered and on top of that you can easily 1v1 any other support with the blind and damage boost that it gives
Do you guys have any tips for Cloak and Dagger? I'm diamond right now playing mostly flex support/tank in a 4man stack and for some reason I can't perform well with that hero. I always feel like I reach the ceiling with C&D because of the auto aim, but Mantis/Luna feel more rewarding the better you play (when they are not banned) and I can output more healing and burst damage while also having a CC and coordinate the ultimate better with my team.
@@Snow-Order66so a good thing you can do if you have good dps is just heal then quickly switch and throw the ability that throws the purple square thing and switch back instantly for some extra damage. Also if it’s just you alive you can throw down your healing sphere and then switch and it’ll stay and you can dps while getting som heals while you pray your team makes it back in time
The fact that he knew I skipped to the end of the video is so funny lmao I funnier thing is I went back and watched the whole video to get his explanation
before seeing that part lmao
I would say Peni's pretty slept on. Sure the spider nest is a huge part of her kit and it's a complete noobtrap, but her 3s web stun is also massively underused. Barely see anyone in comp lobbies use that stun and it shuts down a bunch of ults. If you get an insane Peni player with amazing reaction times and flicks, you can shut down a good amount of ults in the game. Psylocke, Strange, Peni, Bucky, Star Lord, etc. She's great anti-dive not just because of her spider nest, but because she can stun any divers and peel easily. Other vanguards can do it, but not with a 3s cooldown ability.
Everyone gangsta until Widow gets seasonal dmg boost
She's my favorite idc , waiting for her time to shine
Black Widow is S tier in the cake department
Psylocke and venom get s+ on that tier list
@@SolarSillySolace IDK man Black Widow got that Cammy-like cake.
Don’t worry all we need is Froggah
The value in c&d ult is the zoning aspect. It charges faster than luna and mantis ult so you can force a fight on objective that favors your team before they can ult trade.
CnD ult is also the strongest healing ult by the numbers since it stacks.
It would help if it did any damage to actually zone people and control the space
@@CowKirbo The ult does 30dps and stacks per layer that they stand in. on cp maps you can set up a 90dps aoe that covers most of the point. then you add cloak's 75dps attack and the +20% damage taken debuff from terror cloak you can easily do 200 dps solo in ult while you get 660 hps in ult from triple stack.
"Maximum Pulse"
@@ravenouselement8278*misses by a mil*
Waiting for the UPDATED Updated Tier List (UPDATED) from all the creators in the next coming months LMAO. All jokes aside, it is cool seeing how the meta is evolving as the game moves through its infancy stages.
This should be the first one they make but they have to jump on the bandwagon while adding nothing becuase half of their picks where trash
@@french_toast223 I'm annoyed at Flats ranking all the 'sleeper picks' low because he either doesn't read their ability tooltips or is following the herd whilst also saying they have high skill caps, so that when he makes the next tierlist, he can just take credit for predicting the sleeper picks were always good and everyone said he was delusional. Same song and dance every list.
Namor (Nay-more) was Marvel's first mutant ever featured in the comics and also was the inspiration for Aquaman in DC comics
Namor (Nah-mor)*
@0vrsa0 no, that pronunciation was a creation for black panther: wakanda forever. The director said that they wanted to change the origin of his name to something that better fit the tone of the film so they had one of the Spaniards in his backstory call him Namõr which roughly translates to no-love. This was also the reasoning behind making him Aztec instead of atlantian, also bc they didn't wanna use Atlantis bc they didn't want people thinking they just copied Aquaman when in reality Namor existed first.
@ whoops i thought that theory was just fanmade headcannon. my bad. Ive ready a few runs with namor before but never really focused on him until BP 2 and Marvel Rivals. thx for the correction
@0vrsa0 np man, a channel I recommend to any comic fan is called new rockstars. They break down everything comic related and I can't recommend them enough
I just want to say Peni on defense versus Peni on offense is 2 totally different characters.
I think Cap is actually pretty decent below diamond. Him and Thor can be hyper aggressive at that rank together. The teamup gives him so much damage and kill potential.
Also, he has a support ult pretty much. I find him to be really useful when we have like a rocket/adam or jeff or something. Which happens a lot at those ranks. He makes up for the lack of defensive supp ults with his own.
He cant do a ton of damage, but if you use your cds right, you can distract, bait abilities, and once you get really good at your shield, reflect certain ults. Hes really annoying for groots to deal with because they’re scared of losing ult.
Since theres no bans, he can reliably dive hawkeyes and helas REALLY well. They’re scared to shoot at his shield because of the deflect. Supports are more inconsistent, so you have kill potential even without the teamup.
He does start to falloff, and he’s really REALLY bad against certain comps (Peni destroys him). But I would say he’s really good at what hes good at. Maybe C is still fair, but I personally think hes B at those ranks
Yea I barely die with cap, you can tell who the bad ones are because they stick around too long. There’s no stat for being a disruptor unfortunately, but if there were he’d be S tier. You can’t put a price on distracting the healers from their team and I have had a lot of success against the Hawkeyes of the world.
When you do well with him it makes people wonder how you even won because his stats at the end are average at best, but my answer would be “because I’m a gigantic piece of shit” lmao
Lol. It’s so entertaining running at a Hawkeye with your shield up and watch them go into panic mode. 😂
Since this game came out, flats looks so much happier. Even his skin looks great. If you read this Flats, I’m proud of you bro!!
yikes
Proud of what playing another game ?
@@mercator5484proud of him being happier and doing something he’s genuinely happy doing
@@mercator5484hahahah fr that comment doesnt make sense
@@mercator5484for playing another game that he actually enjoys instead of being miserable on overwatch
It feels like it's been ages since I've heard this Flats intro.
Cap is really interesting because he is a disruptor, kind of like Sombra in OW1: The point isn't to get kills, its to mess with the enemy team and ruin their strategies while maybe picking off a few weaklings if you have the opportunity
New drinking game: take a shot every time Flats says “potential”.
I feel like people sleep on Rocket's left-click far too much, mostly because of how hard it is to hit at any kind of distance. If you're relatively close to the target though, like maybe you're playing up with the tank or you got dived, it goes crazy. Its less a mini-gun and more a 193 dps shotgun that can headshot.
Exactly this, his damage falloff and slow projectiles makes everyone think his damage isn’t great, meanwhile if you’re playing Rocket and you get dove by a venom, you can force him to use his shield and sometimes even kill him before he even gets you low, Rocket is stupidly good in close quarters
YES, SO TRUE
pls unbind left click
@@fanaria2469 You're a walking L
@@fanaria2469 Not saying to only use his left click, but if a dive hero is pushing you or you want to just jump a tank, he can be a very excellent dive support. Not only his orbs will stay after he shoots them, but he does massive damage. So please, before saying something like that, how about you read the comment correctly as it’s not “Just shoot as it’s OP.”
Peni main here:
I think flat is wrong for a simple reason being she’s team dependent. Essentially a squad catalyst.
Peni as a tank is simply bad as her only tank quality is the larger health, but she has no defense capabilities to mitigate damage.
BUT she’s superb truly shines when her squad is capable (vigilant effective heals, actual defensive tank, and kill hungry damage). The reasons are simple:
•For healers the big spider is chunky enough to be distracting and easy to heal even in harsh burst damage.
•The nest creates a protective zone for tank to maintain their ground or be protected from the flanks.
•DPS thrive on crippled enemies that enter the zone.
Her issue is she’s very strategic and team dependent. Most players cannot do that to an effective degree and do she looks like an overgrown toddler.
By comparison I’m mvp in near every game (even gold ranks) because i can thrive with a good coverage, and I’m not a pro player. It’s and enough that effective enemies will actively target my nest of me first (even to a degree of several ults)
yes lol I'm in plat and whenever there's flankers ljke starlord, spiderman, psylocke, wolverine etc. you can completely lock them down, she's not the best solo tank, but I've won games just off of standing behind my supps and setting up bombs on flank angles
Anything is possible with good strategist
You let them targer the nest? I stand in front of it body blocking if they found the nest LOL to the point the next match all players ignored everyone else except me.
@ no one lets them target the nest but the giga web is pretty hard to ignore. That’s why i said she requires a bit of strategy because you need it in a open enough area to work and covered from range fire.
@ true but some characters do take advantage of strategy more than others.
But sometimes raw skill is simply stronger.
iron fist and spider man in low ranks are top tier. People don't look back when they dive the backline, no one protects you, they just annihilate you in 1v1 or 1v2 at most and just go away unpunished.
Spider-Man is too hard for them to use
Was about to say the same thing. I only play quick match with stuttering FPS, so it might as well be the same thing as low rank. On one hand, the backline typically doesn't ping people that dive them, so everyone else remains unaware when they die. On the other hand, duelists and vanguards will see there's no supports and run to get a healthpack at 1HP, only to get uppercut by a Spiderman out of nowhere, or there's an Iron Fist or Wolverine waiting around the corner.
It'd be a different story if they did, or if people actually enabled the audio cues for dead teammates in their settings.
@@KnucklesWTD i find in my games iron fists and spidermen to consistently get more value than even top tier duelists, heck, i've seen much more spidermen pop off than helas. Even if i know they are there and trying to dive, and i play close to my team, they just shoot splash punch pow and i'm dead, and no one wants to pressure them, then spiderman just ults the backline and walks away with a 3k. Iron fist is even more consistent, just diving on the supports, our tanks and other dps are just in narnia when that happens, i'm like the only one seeing this happen and trying to combo them as winter soldier or trying to line up a good shot with hawkeye, he just either kills the support or kills me and either gets away or trades every times. So much value every fight. They only struggle when there are 3 people on them or our tank is on them.
i think alot of people also have the misconception that in high ranks if a flanker shows up people turn to help. that is typically only the off tank helping and most of the times not even that.
supports are mostly left to fend for themselves and kite back to their team so they cant get redove. if ur team turns around to do with a flank ur giving them WAY to much value for simply being alive. if im playing panther and im distracting 5 of u while being 1/6 im doing my job.
i’ve been playing iron fist in quick play which are sweaty sometimes and the trick is to play the objective and let enemies come to you
"his kidnapping though-"
Flats: "you wanna mnow who else can kidnap?"
Chat threw that right at him and he hit a damn Grand Slam with that one XD
Rocket's right click can be clutch. Just save his ammo for finishing off low health targets when your team is good on health and it will really help pick apart the enemy team.
Overwatch sure does look different after that break I took.
There’s no way you people aren’t paid💀
@@shaquilleoatmeal4389 Got to feed the kids, try to be sympathetic
This is Overwatch 3, you been living under a rock?
@@Darkrai1431Nah this is overwatch 2, a new game and not an update 😂
@@Darkrai1431team fortress 5
Holy shit I just watched another tier list and was thinking the below diamond vs above diamond are actually 2 different games. Thank you Sir Flats
Also as a gold player currently I def agree with your tier list altho star lord and iron man can still be good cuz people really can't dps or just don't play S-A tier heros (yes low elo players are not versatile and 1 trick)
1:34
“We weren’t entirely sure if it [hero bans] was in ranked or just the tournament modes”
He says despite the game telling you hero bans are in ranked.
"Weren't"
Flats is kinda dumb. He acts...no he tells you and wont shut up whenever he says or does something that happens to be right.
@@scotttimbrell8632 "Some Hulk player told me this, it could be misinformation, you get ult charge when they shoot ur shield". It says it right there in the 1 sentence description lol.
@@kilianbalter We should be all well aware that flats cant read or talk. He emphasises words so fucking wrong that it hurts my ears....its just not how a functional sentence is meant to be said.
Rent free
Dang bro, he got me at the end, I'm actually thinking about watching the rest of the vod now😂
Could not disagree more about the cloak and dagger take. I think theyre being slept on hard, and theyre getting the wolverine treatment. They not only off solid damage but, cloaks screen thing, makes enemies more vulnerable to damage, hit a diving tank with it or when a team groups up and it helps push them back out. Theyre ult heals and damages so it helps to either push a point or keep a hold of it. Dagger has auto tracking shots and if you learn how to fuck with it a bit, not only can you get some tight heals off, you can sort out annoying dps characters like Iron Man. Ive also been testing cloaks phase out thing, and the first second of it makes people intangible, so any attack or ult that needs to directly target someone, like Wanda, then it nullifies her ult, because it cant find a target. Im still testing to see what it works against, but thats what Ive personally found at least, plus its a speed boost, so I pop it when we need to scatter from an ult. Her bubble has allowed me to straight up out dps an iron fist who is bullying me, even some tanks. I bubble, go cloak, and hit them with the screen, then start using cloaks basic attack to melt them. If I start to lost, phase out to leave back to my team.
I think as people learn their skill set and where they belong on the team, she'll be more popular, but right now people pick her as a joke sort of. I know its anecdotal, but Im in gold 2 atm and Ive gone games where I have like 20k healing and also 30ish kills. Granted alot of those are probs assists or just the final hit, but they are kill steal and assist masters.
Part of the reason widow is slightly better below diamond is also because Hawkeyes not being banned and her team of ability with Hawkeye is just his ultimate on a cool down
04:05. “Say that again.”
i just need to commend your sense of humor i found this way funnier than it prolly should’ve been 😭
@@High5gh0st Thank you. I also found this way funnier than I should have. 😭
11:00
@@eric-nq6dn "Say that again."
For Rocket Raccoon, I don't see a lot of people talk about how great his mobility is. He can climb walls, dash, and glide. And these abilities, if used well, can get you out of some sticky situations.
Nevermind his great mobility, I never see anyone say anything good about his gun. It's incredible for anti-dive with how much damage it does to tanks like Venom and Hulk who try to jump in to harass the back line. The damage falloff starts at 10m, so it was purposefully designed to be really devastating up close
My issue with Mantis is in quick play, and where I'm at in ranked (gold), they never try to heal. They just damage boost themselves and go for dps numbers
Lots of supports try to play as Duelists, not just mantis. Just like y'all dps try to tank.
@forwardmoving8252 "Yall dps" I commented this with 18 hours on Luna and 25 on Strange. I have below 4 hours on dps. I am now at 36 with Luna and 34 with Strange and in Diamond 1. I still stand by what I said
I love Namor, knowing that hearing that whistle means run away is peakkk
the problem with magik is you have a flanker who isn't as mobile as the rest of the flankers so it's more all in with your engages BUT you also don't have the damage to make up for the fact that you don't have the mobility to really disengage, so then any combo or attempt at a kill you try will just get hilariously out healed with very little effort. Gameplay for magik past a certain point just turns into tank bullying with the minions because she's so fucking abysmal at securing kills with her combos. Not to mention her E dash is hilariously inconsistent and will straight up go through people half the time and that's like the CORE ability to her combo.
Also high elo players just go namor and your hero immediately becomes useless.
yea a lot of her stuff is timing the teleport too not to mention she has a seasonal buff rn
Not entirely true.
The problem with Magik is she doesn't have a good disengage. So with that you are right.
You are also right to point out that she's not a flanker. Which most melees aren't really. They're "dive" characters.
Flankers are those that need awkward angles to dish out damage, but not necessarily be in the middle of enemy lines (Moon Knight, Psylocke)
But Magik is not a flanker. She's a diver. And divers are the ones that go inside enemy lines (Iron Fist, Spiderman, BP, Magik)
So you're right to say she's a bad flanker, but that's because she's a diver. Not a flanker.
Her main weakness is really that she has bad disengage.
One thing you are completely wrong about however, is that Magik has some of the highest burst damage potential in melee champions.
You can compare the total damage output she can deal with her full combo (with animation cancelling) than that of Spider-Man which is fixed at 280.
She can deal 300+ damage in a span of 1-2 second. Which is kinda disgusting.
She's simply too hard to play. She reminds me of Riven in League
@@remveel2443 she straight up can't do that kind of damage. I can do the best combo of my life and it can get out healed instantly by an adam clicking E, a luna hitting her shots, or them simply getting a mantis seed.
Also divers and flankers are the same thing. You go on the backline, and you usually take a flank to get there because you aren't about to just face tank your engage.
@@Westbrook__ just wrong tho. You can flank and not dive. Psylocke is perfect example of that, theres rarely a reason to dive, ur fine just holding an off angle. Starlord is a pure flanker, he cant dive for shit, but he has infinite vertical and horizontal mobility allowing him to shoot from anywhere. Magik on the other hand, wtf does she do on a flank? How does she get there, and why wouldnt she just dash thru the tanks into the backline with her invulns? Waiting to dive from a flank is very different to being a flanker, the latter is able to apply pressure, the former just all ins and either kills or dies.
@kklap3219 my point is literally both can do both. My point is it’s nitpicking terms. It doesnt matter. Especially when the topic of conversation, magik, is both a diver and a flanker. You wouldn’t face tank with magik so you don’t eat unnecessary damage. Yea you have invul while tping, but you don’t before or after it so you want to surprise people, not let them know “hey im here” especially with how shit her disengage is.
Storm is such an awkward character.
She's an aerial character, but she prefers to be near ground level because her primary attack pierces.
But her damage fall off is so sharp that the piercing doesn't really do much.
Her purpose seems to be a damage battery with her lightning field and she watches the backs of her teammates from what I've seen, and waits for enemy supports to throw out their ults for her to ult clear the enemy backline.
She’s meant to be a slightly grounded character who can fly.
A bit awkward but she actually is very useful when ur team doesn’t lose their marbles the moment people see her get picked because of tierlists like this. The only the thing that is not in tandem with her kit is the sphere aura otherwise she’s a great character in need of a few damage buffs.
@@juritudi57yearsago59 in need of an m1 rework*. Literally make her 2 forms (wind and storm) do different things. As of right now it's inting if you leave her on wind mode for anything except ooc. Her m1 is a joke and the only good thing she has is the burst potential her storm shift gives. Storm has really good pathways to go into but as of now she needs a rework (or a proper team up in s2, Thor ability is a joke lmao)
Imo she's insanely good, perfect when you just need to push or defend an objective, she enables the team in such a huge way, and her piercing damage is still useful once it adds up. Plus her ult is extremely dangerous in a tight space.
But she's extremely boring to play, and SHOULD be played near ground level, but most people just go really high for no reason and get dropped lmao
lol as a storm main getting to lord is definitely top priority as when you have the icon, no one jumps on you for picking her
Rocket is goated, man. I love him so much. Not just because I play Punisher a lot, but because I've seen good Rockets put out twice the healing of any other healer in the same match. It's *wild* how much his healing gets slept on.
People ignore the power of his rez too.
People think because he has low HPS it means he has bad healing, like no, Rocket may not have any good burst healing but what he does have is consistent healing for everybody on the map
I just wish he wasn't so map dependent. Like it's not the worst, but relying on a bouncing projectile to maximize HPS just feels bad
Do you shoot your gun at all?
@Wastelander1337 he really isnt. They do fine even with no bounce. They slow down while healing. In a big group they won't even get a bounce. The bounce is just useful for shooting around corners.
As a mantis main in low ranks i love having a Scarlett witch on my team the way she attacks really makes the most of the damage boost
The Hulk bubble giving ult charge is literally on the tooltip
These streamers don't read. Also spread misinformation about the Overwatch Classic event because they don't read properly.
Everyone bow to Wolverine now 😂
And it's nice that people are realizing abducting tanks is the meta to destroy supports. Because they can't chase after their tanks getting abducted because Wolverine perfectly did his job to disrupt formation
It's insane lmao. Hard, HARD counter to Strange, Magneto, Groot.. he melts them so bad
As a psylocke main i will say she can kill iron man really easily if you have good positioning
+1
You can kill anyone with good positioning.
@@COA5Tyes but the point is you might *need* good positioning to kill some characters.
You obviously wouldn't need good positioning for a tank unless you're killing them with Wolverine
Good luck doing that when a Hawkeye will one shot you from across the map
i think people are sleeping on cloak and dagger's best ability which is cloak's cloaking ability...you can save your team from your 90% of ults in the game and it has such a huge range...it gives basically a 2s invincibility for everyone in range
Which power is this you speak of? The darkness wave thing? Or the other one?
@@sockinvaders i think its called dark teleportation which makes himself (and everyone around him) invisible and invincible for 2s
Hehe your wrong if they shoot reload or do anything at all within those two seconds your team is dead
@@sockinvaders Cloak can go invisible and become untargetable. It works on his whole team but will almost never happen because it breaks if they attack. It's pretty gnarly against things like Scarlet Witch ult though where you have time to tell your team to stop attacking.
The thing is…. HOW many people will you save… unless you’re in chat and you don’t have people that KNOW C&D like that… that’s where it becomes a different story.😊
You know the Dev who was cooking on Wolverines kit was just laughing when they saw Wolverine getting ranked low on Tier Lists. Dude is literally a walking Wood Chipper.
I still love penny trends to shut down Jeff ult whenever he eats me. Putting your nest in a corner or a tighter area tends to burst down melee characters a lot
17:10 the point is I’m the amazing spider-man and imma protect my mf friendly neighborhood😤 I’ve made it to diamond tho
evolving meta is awesome. Love when games first come out and we begin to see each character's respective niches and potentials. This is made even better by the 'team-ups'. This game has a toooon of potential.
“Namor is stronger than Black Panther!?” Flats, my guy, you just pissed off a lot of comic fans lol
Namor is stronger than black panther in the comics
I’ve played with Peni Parker as Winter Soldier and have made amazing one shot combos with bucky’s hook to pull enemies into Peni’s Mines, it was such a dominating combo cause we were picking off every enemy so fast.
I think peni’s playstyle shifts in higher ranks and is really good when used properly. In low ranks she plays the mine cheese strat, looking for those one shot mine clusters for people who mindlessly press w. In higher ranks you just spam mines on cooldown and focus on webbing the carries and healers so your dps can easily pick them off. Webs low cooldown hard cc is slept on.
You really know its gonna be a goodie today when you hear "I've got a goodie for you today"
19:50
As a storm player, she offers some great utility, but it isnt really felt by her teamates. In a coordinated team, she can absolutely get work done.
She works a bit like a 3rd support, anf hanging around a punisher or moon knight with damage boost can help them out more than theu realize.
Storm is also pretty good into dive, if she can get 3 people in empowerd damag aura, her ult charges like crazy. That ult can wipe 3-4 people before they know wha thit then.
She also can be very good when your team is like 5 dps 1 healer type situation. This obviously depends if your teamates are actually good, but amping the speed and damage of the most moblie and damage dealing role comes in handy.
Her problems are mostly that she doesn't have enough movement speed (even with speed aura), feeling like her damage is low (when it's actually pretty potent), and her impact not being felt by her teamates.
I agree with all takes here, she is anti dive, she still needs a damage buff or no fall off. Her kit is great aside from the speed. Slowing enemies actually slow them down and her teammates get faster but it’s not enough at times.
@juritudi57yearsago59 right, I forgot about the damage falloff. No reason for it to exist.
I agree she is strong and also a blast to play. One tip: stay with team and almost never leave the ground.
Ctrl+Shift+T brings up the last tab you closed, and you can press it multiple times for more closed tabs, for the future since it looked like you closed the old tier list video tab that you wanted to keep open for cross-reference
As a D1 Magik player when I don't get target banned I almost always get value cause she's actually really versatile. treating her as a 3rd tank she can take space by portaling past tanks into a one shot combo or hold 1 portal and use the second to put her demon out and hold space really really well. Her main constraint is she HAS to have natural cover or she dies immediately and has to know what her tanks are doing so she's not left to die defending cart. On convoy she's really strong cause she can just shove her face into cart, take ranged potshots that do 100 dmg on a 5 second CD, and beat the absolute dogshit out of tanks that try to push her off with demon and melees.
In domination maps she's a bit harder to pull off but if you just hold hands with the tanks and dash in on squishies that get close you'll get good value, or you can be the support babysitter for anti dive. Her ult is also nuts, walk behind a pillar while the animation is happening and if you do a portal left click into uppercut and hit it instantly deletes 250hp enemies. You get enough time in ult to do it twice, and if they run you can full charge a 200dmg ranged attack. She's slower than BP by a mile which sucks, but he does 12 things for 250 dmg, magic does 3 things for the same value and can go toe to toe with tanks (Except awakened thor he rips me apart with haste.)
The i frames are also nuts, a half second of immunity every 6 seconds mitigates an insane amount of dmg and playing as a chokepoint guard dog generates so much shield it. don't think she's S tier, but I think most people haven't figured out the proper playstyle to use with her. it hurts my soul when people play her as a bad dive character/flanker instead of tank lite.
(If you want an absolutely stupid comp that works surprisingly well if you ban iron man, running 3/1/2 with Magik is so much frontline damage the enemy tanks just fold 3 seconds into every single fight.)
Apologies for the essay, Magik is my favorite dps and I love geeking out about her.
Dagger main here in Diamond. Dagger is amazing in triple support but still viable in most games (can't speak to GM and above). Something I recently learned is Dagger's left click can heal multiple people if they're standing close together. If you get dove and you're next to your other support, heal and stay near your other support and you'll heal yourself as well.
Hulk's bubble is great for getting at least 3 percent, potentially 15 or more, in one bubble. It's somewhat similar to Wolverine in that your ult builds faster through the bubble. My personal tip is to have a melee character like Thor or Wolverine right beside you, pop bubble and harass the tanks together to build ult with damage as the both of you get damaged, building even more ult for Hulk. Hopefully Flats sees this, maybe he already picked this up, maybe it's not too great for higher ranked matches idk. But i figured I'd share
I got the Squirrel Girl achievement with the ult. Only 1 percent of the players have it as of a few days ago. I agree. She ain’t menacing but when you get a couple trapped in the right click and they just evaporate, it’s the best.
19:15 certified storm player here and I can say on behalf of the very little of us storm is quite good at boosting and staying alive for the team 👍
Storm is great people just keep trying to play her like Iron Man
I've played her quite a bit in rank as well (diamond) whenever I dont have be a tank or support, I think she has a lot of support-hybrid potential. Also her ultimate is just nuts, you can consistently double kill both healers in the backline and then push towards your team while still in tornado.
I wish her "speed" actually did what it said it supposed to do cause movement feels VERY similar with it on or off... Also pretty sure she has control over ALL weather so it baffles me that she only has lighting and air AND has to reload her primary attack?... Like what? But Peni P doesn't? Makes zero sense.
I enjoy playing her quite a lot. I can’t wait to play human torch with you storm mains
I’m a GM storm main and she’s extremely underrated and super underutilized. Giving your entire team a constant damage boost while also having a game changing ult is insane. You’ll rarely ever do top damage but that’s not really the purpose of playing Storm. You know you did well when you’ve got 30 kills and 30 assists every game and your entire team did double damage compared to the enemy team.
"Iron man is S tier"
"Hes not that good without the team up though"
????
Thats kinda true but you need to add that hes S tier ONLY when there is a hulk in the team AND hela and hawkeye are banned
Yeah he kinda needs a buff or just gotta wait till hawkeye and hela get nerfed
@Kacper-jw3bv thats so dumb lmao so hes not s tier. Peni has more applicable situations than that
@@batteryshower4714 i mean yeah thats extremely dumb but since in and anove diamond hawkeye and hela are banned most of the time it seems then his 2 main counter are banned so he skyrockets and when the enemy team doesnt have Punisher and you have hulk the iron man becomes almost as good as hela or maybe a bad hawkeye
So yeah its bs but yay S tier iron man am I right? Definetely not a weak character that requires many odds to be stacked in his favour to actually keep up or perform above average
I kinda like how the perception of certain heroes shifts completely once you get into A) Higher lobbies because people actually reach the skill ceiling and B) Hero bans force you to adapt to entirely new and always changing situations.
It's really refreshing to see and I hope they balance that well in the future.
I’ve dedicated about 5 hours to playing Spider-Man to learn him, and it became apparent in 2 hours what his problem is: his walking and air speed is too low. Surprisingly SPIDER-MAN of all characters, an assassin Hero, has a hard time sticking to people once he’s in. You have a fat chance of weaving in Auto Attacks most of the time bc 1) they won’t connect more than 75% of the time, and 2) it almost messes up his flow since uppercut is so good and is a a lot of dmg
Like, sure they can easily just reduce his CDs a little bit, but thats probably just gonna make him insufferable to play against. Give him more sticking power with his movement speed or more range on his punches so he can actually weave one in his combos, then he becomes an A tier at least
The Uppercut is Aoe circle around spiderman, you don't have to be close, also use swing t get closer and hit target. but flankers depends on how good the rest of the team. if all of them dead?or weak offense , you wont be able to d anything sadly as flanker. that is the main issue.
I have some ideas as a Spider-Man player. Cut animation lockouts for attaching and detaching from wall climbing. Change keybinding for running on walls or set it to auto/toggle. Increase horizontal movement for double jump air attack. Give him another tracer. Split cooldown of web pull (he has reload key free) or lower cooldown on miss.
Spiderman doesnt need buffs. He is already the best backline killer in the game and it isnt even close.
@@djb1928 Dead wrong, that would be Psylocke. Black Panther also can shield himself, while Spider-Man only has his mobility. I don't think he needs buffs though, I enjoy underdog heroes with finesse playstyles.
@@skarloeythomas5172 you're low elo as **** stop replying to me. BP doesnt even have a shield LMFAO "dead wrong" bro doesnt even know what hes typing
As a Peni main, for defense only, she is great against most close range combat. Black panther, iron fist, wolverine, spider-man, etc will be demolished by the mines because they aren't cautious especially with traps set up on out of the way doorways. As a MoonKnight main I agree flanks are the only way to really excel but people are wring about his ult. It is good because it is built so fast. Want to get that Luna ult out? THE MOON HAUNTS YOU. Hold a choke? THE MOON HAUNTS YOU. People expect ults to kill or provide safety but moonknight's is versatile in it's functions making it good due to the frequency if the moonknight plays advantageously
Swapping to peni on defense is great regardless of rank, on offense I agree with flats, shes noob bait.
@@yotemgote Depends on the map and enemy team composition like most heroes. I've used her quite effectively on offense lots of times (i'm in diamond so I can't speak for higher ranks though). Also Peni has the highest win rate of any tank for a reason. She's a great character imo.
edit: Apparently Peni's winrate has dropped since I last checked to 2nd. Hulk now claims that title.
@@Zekegedd I main her but shes only viable on some maps, on others you just swap to another tank or lose againsed competent opponents
Only works is the enemies are clueless. You can bait mines by literally walking forward and back lol. Agile characters like BP can use dash to bait all if out too. At Grandmaster above your potential to shut down ultimate and dives with your right click is the reason use her. Mines are okayish
@NinjapowerMS your peni doesn't set the traps correctly if they are so easy to bait then and most movement abilities leave sort of like an after image if animation isn't complete
Flats hear me out on Cloak and Dagger
There’s a lot of good teamups and synergies with other strategists but Cloak and Dagger are just as strong and maybe will be more favorable when they eventually get a team up. They can sub in for any combo and pop off cause let me summarize what they bring to the table:
Discord (20% damage boost)
Blind
Healing boost (too lazy to check percentage but increases heals on targets hit by heal wall)
A suzu that can just save an entire team from an ult
A heal bubble that can heal multiple teammates or help you survive one v ones with dives or just increase survivability in general
Op ult that gives up to 660 per second healing (enough to just stare down a punisher ult and be perfectly fine) and creates space.
This is all in one character making them still underrated cause people just don’t understand every part of the kit completely. Once everyone understands and your team stops running away from her ult or understand the blinded enemies take extra damage or to stop running away from the heal bubble then they can do so much to carry a team.
Low ranks they are probably C maybe low B but high ranks should be hitting S with hero bans and possibly top pick when they create a team up to incentive them if you argue the adam warlock team up.
facts…if you put enough time into C&D you’ll see how effective they are I carry game after game with them I love that they never get banned
i think cloak and dagger are a safe 3rd pick when your two main support characters aren’t available
@@ArmedandDangerous918 what makes C&D 3rd in your opinion?
Storm is quite slept on, especially in diamond ranks with hero bans for the following reasons:
1. If you ban Hawkeye and Hela, there aren't really that many good counters anymore
2. If you ban Luna Snow, you can easily use your ultimate most of the time to wipe the enemy's backline without it being countered every 20 seconds by Luna's ultimate
3. She's an excellent counter to brawler characters and in general in 1v1s because of her kit which strikes lightning to nearby enemies. She can greatly help the backline deal with flankers
4. Like Zen in Overwatch, if you're good enough, you can spam her ultimate every 30-40 seconds. The more enemies in your circle taking damage from your ability, the more direct hits on aligned enemies (piercing multiple enemies damage), if she teams up with thor gives her extra ability that bounces off enemies making damage to multiple ones. You can easily recharge your ultimate.
5. Her ultimate is a really strong AOE damage that can regain control over point, end overtime, or deal with Loki's healing ability when people are gathered around him
She works better though in payload maps, in control maps not so much since because she gets more space in terms of actual map space and also teams are more split with people trying to flank or backline staying far at the back to heal etc.
She's easily a B tier at least with Iron Fist
When you said you know who else could kidnap, I got an ad that said, "Hello, I am Patrick Stewart."
I think you take for granted squirrel girl considering her stun has an antiheal, if you stun luna in her ult, you kill her and boom best ult in the game is down
The problem with squirrel girl is you have to have a basic, baby entry level understanding of the concept of physics because if she isn't constantly hitting people, then she is useless. If she has like a 50% accuracy when it comes to bouncing nuts off walls while hitting people, then she becomes an absolute monster. Expecting any player to have any kind of understanding of physics is just too much to ask. So it's understandable why he gets anxious when people pick her. She always does 20k damage or 4k damage. There's no in-between.
Mantis main here, appreciate the through and detailed breakdown of her placement on both lists at 23:19. It’s full of Empathy
Yeah
But what did you expect
She's really good
Like ridiculously good
It's literally just kiriko on crack
I myself have been also making mantis and I have like 19 games or comp on her and like 17 won
She's insane
Also a mantis main, I think she’s the strongest character in the game rn. She’s basically a 3rd dps with self and team damage boosts, faster running speed, aoe sleep, shorter luna ult, good healing, and she doesnt get target banned every game. Currently on a 22 game win streak playing only Mantis with MVP 90% of the games. She’s so broken.
Hero bans will single handedly keep this game alive. I was literally losing motivation to play after just 2 weeks because hela Hawkeye dribblers everygame was just SO UNFUN to play against. But once I got to diamond HOLY SHIT is the game so much more enjoyable now that they’re perma banned every match
I wish hero band existed in quick play too. Sadly I keep running into those characters and getting 1-2 shotted by them across the map.
@@JoeyCentral defeats the concept of a quick fun game if everyone is sweating and banning.
@@zeinnanla5422 yes quickplay should never have role locks or hero bans, it's literally a quick play, a few minutes.
hawkeye is giga busted and its no surprise to see him permabanned, not only is he broken but hes completely anti fun to any competitive game. 1 shots dont deserve a place in any game as for helya i just feel like her ult is way to strong why shes given a wallhack when she presses q truly mind boggles me
@Gan-n9x bro hela’s ult feels reasonable compared to her left click. She can literally do more damage with auto attack headshots than some heroes do with their ults
Bro the last part of your video was hilarious 🤣🤣🤣
I was laughing so hard lol
I love it when my Cap just decides randomly to react that one scene from Forest Gump
The real reason Scarlet Witch is decent in lower elos is because she can reliably take out the flanking Iron Man while your dps are dying to Jeff.
The realest reason is she has two invuln cooldowns and her % based damage wipes out low rank vanguards.
I primarily play Peni, and I gotta say even w/ mines, I had a game where I was solo tank and the Wolverine still made my life incredibly difficult. Was able to clutch up, but was probably the hardest I’ve worked for a win.
Wolverine dive is brutal for peni, if you are out of position at all you are dead
She feels weird to play but honestly I see her mostly as a squishy killer. She's an off-tank not a solo tank. Because you can just throw mines and shoot the healers or pick off dps with 2 mines and some well placed shots. And you're fairly safe against dives with your nest and a stun on 3s cooldown. Pair her with a strange or magnito so she and her nests can't be picked off and she does well. But on her own she drops hard and requires a lot of effort
@ for me she is the most fun to play of any of the tanks. Tanks seem to be underrepresented in my games, so I’m frequently the only one.
I have Magneto as a secondary, and have been considering picking up Strange since I know they are the good solo tanks. They both feel worse to play though. Magneto feels like I’m dragging around bricks with how slow and immobile he is, and I just don’t like Strange’s kit enough to put in practice with him.
Thankfully I’m still only in Silver 2 so it doesn’t really matter just yet. Just hoping for the release of another solo tank that is fun for me.
@@shmooters5599 yeah in silver she'll do fine (however she's reliant on good healers) but higher and higher up people start respecting her area control and try to pick her off because she doesn't actually have as much in defensive value like groot, strange, magnito or hulk. She's more like a fat dps
Rocket really is undervalued as a healer just bc he can’t burst heal like Luna or AW, but his survivability definitely makes up for it. If you’re sick of getting singled out by dive characters as a strat main try him out. A running rocket is most of the time not worth the effort to track down and kill for most dps players, and bc u live, u out heal other characters from staying alive and being consistent.
It's not just his lack of burst heals his ult is underwhelming compared to other ults its6the only support ult that doesnt heal or do something like res you cant counter anything with it, sure it helps deal more dmg but it's not that valuble
One important point for loki is that technically if he is in a 1v1 against any dps he can kill them easily bc he and his clones are invulnerable with his shift and by the time they kill the rocks they're likely close to dead ive never lost a 1v1 to a psylocke on loki
New watcher here lol. I love the video man! Had be crack in up in the first 3 minutes 😂
regarding healers, excluding the ult because you dont have ult every fight unless youre a god, I think cloak and dagger has the greatest healing output. If you are able to use window and bubble with high efficiency i think even including the ult, dagger has higher healing output. the problem, aside from team-ups, is that mantis and luna ult can stop almost any enemy ult in its tracks and thats invaluable counter-play. Dagger ult can keep people alive in a similar manner but teammates have to actually position themselves on the heal while mantis and luna can just walk close to whoever is in need.
Luna has, objectively, more healing output. C&D, just like Mantis, is played for other reasons besides ONLY healing lol
one thing i hate about her is ultimate , so ez to take down by enemy when it delay
29:15 yo thats actually crazy
I usually skip to the end but this the first time I actually watch one through and i get hit with this? lol!
It actually scared me
Im sorry
23:40 cloak and dagger have good healing and good utility, but having to actually switch characters to use that utility really slows you down and can get your team into dire straights. Most of the time you can only heal bot, so switching and using your blind, which takes time, then switching back to heal just is not super useful. Plus they only have the team up with moon knight
Honestly it’s like spider man. You have to do so much. Manage so much just to be affective on her you might as well just play Luna or mantis or even Adam. I love cloak and dagger but I feel like I have to be on meth to play her cause there’s so much going on!
You're kinda overexaggerating. It's less than a reload to switch characters. If your team is all critical obviously stay Dagger. But if your team is all full HP, and you're just sitting there waiting for someone to heal, switch to Cloak and get some damage, throw out a blind. Your blind is also a straight up 20% damage boost and it can affect multiple targets. Cloak's M2 is also straight up OP with how much it can just casually ignore. Iron Man pulse, Scarlett Witch Ult, Magneto Rock, Bucky ult. You almost always have enough time to switch and M2 when you hear the voicelines too.
Fr, as a cloak and dagger main sometimes you just gotta accept ur teams gonna die and go for the picks
@@derpyduck5088 That’s fair. I don’t play the game that much, so those were simply my thoughts on the character. It doesn’t help I’m in a low elo, so my teammates don’t know how to not take a thousand damage per second. I’ll keep that in mind next time I pick the character though.
It’s not even that, she just has much less consistent heals and her ult is also not as consistent and instant for saving teammates with
When the game first came out I put 20 hours on Wolverine, everyone was saying how bad he was. Now he’s high up on everyone’s tier list. I’m calling it with Storm. I’ve been playing her the last few days and my win rate is over 87%. She’s actually super insane at enabling her team, and keeping out divers like spidey, wolverine, and iron fist. She’s also amazing at dueling iron man’s. Since she’s always kind of floating it’s easy to dodge his AoE from his primary fire and with speed boost he’s going to have a hard time landing direct shots. Using speed boost to get your team out of scary ults like Scarlet witch and Pulse is also nutty. Your dps isn’t as high as the other picks, so I make it my job to focus down the deployables like Spider nest, Loki clones, Namor Turrets, Ect.
“Don’t mess with the Amazing Spider-Man!” BRUTHA YOU MESSED WITH ME
80 percent of my games ban Luna. I definitely notice because Namor is one of my mains
Should be 100 percent ban rate. Luna needs nerfs just as badly as hela and hawkeye
I think the problem with Bucky is he’s not hitscan. He can’t really contest flyers or duel hela/hawkeye. His value falls off so much if you are out of his range and you combo that with his lack of mobility and easily divable. He can only play good if you can put him in the middle of the team and protect him like Cassidy in overwatch, but he’s got no stun or hitscan burst. He’s got some extra sauce that Cassidy doesn’t have and a better ult, but he does some of the fundamentals way worse than Cassidy.
One of his abilities is an anti flying tool though I think. But yeah snipers are more effective for that role
I can’t get his kit down at ALL. Love punisher though
I consider him anti dive, if a magic, spider man, etc goes in you just hook em and punch and they die
He also is a hard counter to penny pulling her away from her mines and deleting her health bar due to her massive head hitbox
@@nintendo_ruler he’s not surviving a triple dive, you pull one into you and just get exploded by the others.
Bucky in C is wild
AGAIN
yea i was baffled
Flats doesnt seem to understand how like half the champs work.....all very surface level like he doesnt even mention that Peni just negates almost every S tier hero's ultimate on a 3 second cooldown....
Yeah especially with loki in diamond+ ranks where he is played a lot, its literally free again stack if u need to wait for them to come or you need to wait out their ults or something lol
For real, he is like the 4th highest ban rate character in top 500
Aye I gotta sub for that , I skipped to the end dude say you skipped to the end huh 😂 that’s funny I fw you for that.