I've play with and without a shoulder rest. Overall, I prefer the sound without a shoulder rest, the sound is more "natural" and interesting in my opinion. Shoulder rests tend to produce a more uniform, less natural, sound where it is more difficult to tell violinists apart. Doesn't mean you can't produce a beautiful sound with shoulder rest, or course. But, I do go back in forth.
First we as violinist should realize that as beautiful as the look and sound of a violin might be , it is still the worst ergonomically designed musical instrument till date ,which later led into various inventions such as the Chinrest, Shoulder rest , tailpiece fine-tuners , geared pegs e.t.c, all this as enabled great players of today to do what older masters would have thought impossible with a violin such as dancing and playing simultaneously. what he said about old masters not entirely true for example lseac stern himself claimed to have used foam padding tucked underneath his jacket before playing which people don't see, David Oistrakh had a Cremona sponge-like padding attached underneath his violin . This shows that the most ergonomically stable way to hold the violin without necessarily touching is to use a shoulder rest or an hybrid of it.
People debating and doubting the words or one of the best violinist and teacher of the 20th century who is mentioning the very best players in the world ever! 😂
Great violinists who do use shoulder rests: Vengerov, Hahn, Benedetti, Bell, Jansen, and no doubt others. Playing without a shoulder rest may be the ideal, unfortunately it just doesn't work for everyone.
He talks about the level of Heifetz, Milstein, Perlman, Zukerman, and Mutter... Although it's subjective, I do doubt it's very true that's why many modern violinists can't reach the level of them...
@@ariannavicari1858 I agree, plus without one surely significant contact with the shoulder must dampen the sound. Also I understand that some of the "no shoulder rest" violinists (eg Hadelich, Zukermann) use padding under their shirt.
@@ariannavicari1858 although some might, I wouldn't say they have "basically no impact"... I think all shoulder rests and pads affect the sound, it's just a matter if people have sensitive enough ears to hear the difference.
Tuve la suerte de tocar para Ruggiero Ricci y el no usaba hombrera ni almohadilla siendo ya un legendario violinista y luego toque con Eugene Fodor el Doble de Bach y tbm el Maestro Fodor tampoco usaba ninguna Hombrera y Fodor fue más duro al decir que "La Hombrera es una muleta para el Violín" .. en mi opinión para mi es cómodo pero puede que para otros no lo sea y respeto todo aunque el sonido si puede cambiar al no usarlo puesto que puedes mover el Violín en la Dirección que te convenga para producir sonido o facilitar un cambio de arco incluso . la Hombrera si te limita los movimientos y aprisiona el sonido con sus patas ..
Hey, there used to be a video from this session with Rosand taking about vibrato and glisandi but it is now private. I was wondering if you happen to have access to that segment (I don't know if you originally uploaded it). If you do I would genuinely appreciate being able to watch it again.
@@violinviolin9052me too! Can you please give us the permission to access the video? It’s private and I’m really eager to learn from the master🥲 thank you very much
I began violin by a Viola teacher. Some were allowed a. Shoulder rest some were not. It may have been an experiment the teacher could enjoy I don't know. Some used copper wire tail guts these would not stretch I. Wouldn't think. I was allways accused of left hand death grip. I could not shake it. I still have left hand death grip. It was my great grandfather's violin so I naturally did not want to drop it. Thank you for the reassurance of no shoulder rest. You sound awesome on your violin. In order to do what you did in that quick scale you must have great independence of the fingers. Im very impressed by your brevity And would like to hear more. I in your opinion should a beginning student of the violin take l😊e😊sons f😊rom aViolist? Would that simple f😊😊😮
Would that simple fact derail a beginning student fom proper violin form or technique? Ve😊ry curious. Thank you for any help. Yours very truly Chris in USA. D😊ec.3 202
Yes there are more contemporary violinists who use one, but that doesn’t mean it’s better or worse. It’s just a matter of preference. Plus nowadays there are way more variants of SR, than before. And there are plenty of great contemporary violinists who don’t use one, such as Hadelich, Mutter, Zuckerman, Repin, to name just a few.
He means that, when your holding the violin, your elbow should be forward enough to let your fingers be curved and relaxed - this is especially helpful when playing on the G string. This is why when you’re young teachers will have you hold the violin and swing your left elbow back and forth so you can feel the difference in where your fingers are. Personally it’s sort of the equivalent of moving your right elbow up and down to bow the different strings. With the left elbow, it might be farther forward so I can reach the G string (with curved fingers) comfortably, while my elbow might be farther back when I’m playing on the E string. Basically, you want to keep your elbow under the violin, but align it as you play so your fingers can stay nice and curves and you have a “tunnel” over the strings. Hope that makes sense!
Ugh is right. Short violinists with short necks don't need much padding. People taller than Heifetz and Joeseph Fuchs who both about 5'1" don't have space for a pad. Stern would fuss at orchestral violinists and then stuff a big pad under his shirt. He was 5'6". Aaron Rosand was quite short. Ricci was short. Pictures of Joseph Szigiti playing clearly show a big pad under his shirt. Carl Flesch had the most sensible point of view: measure the distance between the collar bone and the jaw, Compare it to the heigth of the violin and chinrest. The difference is how much you will either have to raise your shoulder or fill in with a pad of some kind. Don't pretend to know what it's like for your students if they are 6 inches or a foot taller than you are. I want to know how many violinists have been ruined and injured by this complete lack of insight and empathy. Easily many thousands.
at about 03:00 he also mentioned tall people with long necks. However, based on modern education (mostly based on suzuki), most violinists even never try or be taught to hold a violin without shoulder rest. So I think his thoughts are very valuable, the injury caused by not using shoulder rest??? It May or may not be because I don't think most violinists are taught the right way to play without shoulder rests. I personally am told that my neck is too long, so I was convinced to buy a different kind of shoulder rest or the taller one. Without shoulder rest, my neck is relaxed and all the pains caused by the fixed position of my violin on my shoulder and tight chin and neck are gone.
Interesting playing without a shoulder rest. We've all tried it. Seems more contemporary famous players use a SR. Without one it's fine in first position and even 3rd, but going up to 4th and higher etc.. the neck wants to clamp, the thumb has to work harder and you get tension the left shoulder comes up and slippage. However in 1st you certainly feel more connected.
I am 6’2 and play without a shoulder rest but do use a Kreddle chin rest. Which allows for enough height to support my long neck. Tried three different shoulder rests including a bon musica. Not only were all three uncomfortable but they left my neck and shoulder feeling like I had been beat with a bag of rocks! Personally, I do not think the shoulder rest was ever meant to be a “have to use” device. But thanks to assholes like Suzuki, it has become gospel.
Ugh. Those violinists didn’t use shoulder rests because they weren’t available at the time!! Virtually every player now uses a shoulder rest of some kind, including Zukerman and many others who actually grew up without them. They are helpful for most people.
@@frankwalker5040 No. Shoulder rests did not become available until sometime in the 1950s, and then of course the early designs weren’t very good at first, so musicians like my parents can’t remember anyone using using them in the 50s or 60s. They didn’t become widely used until the 70s and 80s. This is why most of the successful violinists of the early 1900s had very little neck, and why virtually no women played at a high level, since they typically have longer necks.
I am so tired of men trying to tell women they don’t need a shoulder rest. How the heck would you know what it’s like to play violin in a female body?? We have longer necks and more narrower chests and shoulders. For most women, it is impossible to play properly without a shoulder rest, unless you just happen to have a very short neck. This is why almost every female soloist uses a shoulder rest: Hilary Hahn, Midori, Sarah Chang, Pamela Frank, Lucia Micarelli, Chloe Chua, Karen Gomyo, Nicola Benedetti, Maria Duenas, and the list can go on forever. These people are not misinformed. They are doing what is necessary to play the instrument in the bodies they were born in. It’s awfully rich for someone with a stocky build and no neck to go and tell someone with a neck that they shouldn’t use a shoulder rest. What absolute bullshit.
Maybe it's good to invite Anne-Sophie Mutter to give her thoughts on this issue Hilary Hahn has given her opinion on this issue. I don't think either using a shoulder rest or not using it is bullshit. Using shoulder rest has benefits and damages, not using it also. Please be open-minded, thanks!
I think you're missing out one important factor, and that is the chinrest. Many violinists who have long necks use a tall chinrest with a cup deep enough to support the violin with the weight of their head and in some cases combined with the support of their left thumb.
I am a woman with a long neck. I threw away my shoulder rest several years ago, and it was the best thing I ever did. I love the sound, and I love the freedom. If you have problems using no shoulder rest, you’re not doing it right. It takes time and patience to get the position and the balance correct.
Don't worry, when you 'smash the white patriarchy' that invented the violin and all the technique, so you can properly educate the future generations on how to play the violin. The real reason why almost all females need a rest is because it's easier and requires far less hand strength and endurance. You don't have more neck space, it only seems that way relative to your bodies, males are 5 inches taller on average.
Always loved him - a great artist and a great person - continues to inspire me.
More contemporary, Hadelich and Nathan Melzter. I also came to this conclusion and started using a pad rather than a shoulder rest.
I've play with and without a shoulder rest. Overall, I prefer the sound without a shoulder rest, the sound is more "natural" and interesting in my opinion. Shoulder rests tend to produce a more uniform, less natural, sound where it is more difficult to tell violinists apart. Doesn't mean you can't produce a beautiful sound with shoulder rest, or course. But, I do go back in forth.
Very Instructive, Bravo !
wow, this is one of the best explanations I found (been watching a few videos on the subject... 🙂 )
Wonderful-Thank you!
Just found your video. Excellent! Thanks for sharing your knowledge!
OMG !!! Thanks so much for this video! Do you have more videos like this with Mr. Rosand ?
Yes, ! I will post more!
@@violinviolin9052 eagerly waiting!
He's Phenomenal! His other lessons on Bowing and Sound production, as well as Personal Expression, changed my playing!🥀
He was Incredible, wasn't he? Watch his other Videos. Tremendous Teacher!.🥀
Hilary Hahn uses a shoulder rest!
There are great violinist that use shoulder pads, one being Vladimir Spivakov, there is more freedom without one.
And almost other female player as well. Because their anatomy does not lend itself to playing without one.
While Esther Abrami is the opposite. She doesn't use shoulder rest 😅😆
First we as violinist should realize that as beautiful as the look and sound of a violin might be , it is still the worst ergonomically designed musical instrument till date ,which later led into various inventions such as the Chinrest, Shoulder rest , tailpiece fine-tuners , geared pegs e.t.c, all this as enabled great players of today to do what older masters would have thought impossible with a violin such as dancing and playing simultaneously. what he said about old masters not entirely true for example lseac stern himself claimed to have used foam padding tucked underneath his jacket before playing which people don't see, David Oistrakh had a Cremona sponge-like padding attached underneath his violin . This shows that the most ergonomically stable way to hold the violin without necessarily touching is to use a shoulder rest or an hybrid of it.
Yes indeed.. that's why iam feel more enjoy without shouldrest..❤
People debating and doubting the words or one of the best violinist and teacher of the 20th century who is mentioning the very best players in the world ever! 😂
Not everyone has the same physique! This is not in my opinion a one size fits all issue.
Great violinists who do use shoulder rests: Vengerov, Hahn, Benedetti, Bell, Jansen, and no doubt others. Playing without a shoulder rest may be the ideal, unfortunately it just doesn't work for everyone.
He talks about the level of Heifetz, Milstein, Perlman, Zukerman, and Mutter... Although it's subjective, I do doubt it's very true that's why many modern violinists can't reach the level of them...
Shoulder rest is a matter of comfort: nowadays there is plenty of models which have basically no impact on the sound.
@@ariannavicari1858 I agree, plus without one surely significant contact with the shoulder must dampen the sound. Also I understand that some of the "no shoulder rest" violinists (eg Hadelich, Zukermann) use padding under their shirt.
@@masintec True; of the guys I listed surely Vengerov has to be up there with the best.
@@ariannavicari1858 although some might, I wouldn't say they have "basically no impact"... I think all shoulder rests and pads affect the sound, it's just a matter if people have sensitive enough ears to hear the difference.
Tuve la suerte de tocar para Ruggiero Ricci y el no usaba hombrera ni almohadilla siendo ya un legendario violinista y luego toque con Eugene Fodor el Doble de Bach y tbm el Maestro Fodor tampoco usaba ninguna Hombrera y Fodor fue más duro al decir que "La Hombrera es una muleta para el Violín" .. en mi opinión para mi es cómodo pero puede que para otros no lo sea y respeto todo aunque el sonido si puede cambiar al no usarlo puesto que puedes mover el Violín en la Dirección que te convenga para producir sonido o facilitar un cambio de arco incluso . la Hombrera si te limita los movimientos y aprisiona el sonido con sus patas ..
Does anyone know what is the chin rest model he uses?
If I am not mistaken he uses Kaufman chinrest. Mr. Heifetz used the same. 🎩
Hey, there used to be a video from this session with Rosand taking about vibrato and glisandi but it is now private. I was wondering if you happen to have access to that segment (I don't know if you originally uploaded it). If you do I would genuinely appreciate being able to watch it again.
th-cam.com/video/wC-CsUyFCmU/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/kwq9tXk65pY/w-d-xo.html
@@violinviolin9052 hello would you be able to give me access to both video links you posted?
@@violinviolin9052me too! Can you please give us the permission to access the video? It’s private and I’m really eager to learn from the master🥲 thank you very much
I began violin by a Viola teacher. Some were allowed a. Shoulder rest some were not. It may have been an experiment the teacher could enjoy I don't know. Some used copper wire tail guts these would not stretch I. Wouldn't think. I was allways accused of left hand death grip. I could not shake it. I still have left hand death grip. It was my great grandfather's violin so I naturally did not want to drop it. Thank you for the reassurance of no shoulder rest. You sound awesome on your violin. In order to do what you did in that quick scale you must have great independence of the fingers. Im very impressed by your brevity And would like to hear more. I in your opinion should a beginning student of the violin take l😊e😊sons f😊rom aViolist? Would that simple f😊😊😮
Would that simple fact derail a beginning student fom proper violin form or technique? Ve😊ry curious. Thank you for any help. Yours very truly Chris in USA. D😊ec.3 202
Thank you Sir! Over and out!
Many great violinists use shoulder rest . Hilary Hahn for one.
@@davidrosenman1889 Hilary Hahn uses one
Leonidas Kavakos also uses a shoulder rest.
@@vrca and he is fantastic
I agree. He’s old school and a bit out of touch with the many fantastic contemporary violinists that DO use one.
Yes there are more contemporary violinists who use one, but that doesn’t mean it’s better or worse. It’s just a matter of preference. Plus nowadays there are way more variants of SR, than before. And there are plenty of great contemporary violinists who don’t use one, such as Hadelich, Mutter, Zuckerman, Repin, to name just a few.
❤
Could someone please clarify what he is meaning by 'aligning the elbow for the ideal fingertip position'?
He means that, when your holding the violin, your elbow should be forward enough to let your fingers be curved and relaxed - this is especially helpful when playing on the G string. This is why when you’re young teachers will have you hold the violin and swing your left elbow back and forth so you can feel the difference in where your fingers are. Personally it’s sort of the equivalent of moving your right elbow up and down to bow the different strings. With the left elbow, it might be farther forward so I can reach the G string (with curved fingers) comfortably, while my elbow might be farther back when I’m playing on the E string. Basically, you want to keep your elbow under the violin, but align it as you play so your fingers can stay nice and curves and you have a “tunnel” over the strings. Hope that makes sense!
@@emmalynncraft9636 Thanks! My teacher calls it "arm steering" haha.
Ugh is right. Short violinists with short necks don't need much padding. People taller than Heifetz and Joeseph Fuchs who both about 5'1" don't have space for a pad. Stern would fuss at orchestral violinists and then stuff a big pad under his shirt. He was 5'6". Aaron Rosand was quite short. Ricci was short. Pictures of Joseph Szigiti playing clearly show a big pad under his shirt. Carl Flesch had the most sensible point of view: measure the distance between the collar bone and the jaw, Compare it to the heigth of the violin and chinrest. The difference is how much you will either have to raise your shoulder or fill in with a pad of some kind. Don't pretend to know what it's like for your students if they are 6 inches or a foot taller than you are. I want to know how many violinists have been ruined and injured by this complete lack of insight and empathy. Easily many thousands.
at about 03:00 he also mentioned tall people with long necks. However, based on modern education (mostly based on suzuki), most violinists even never try or be taught to hold a violin without shoulder rest. So I think his thoughts are very valuable, the injury caused by not using shoulder rest??? It May or may not be because I don't think most violinists are taught the right way to play without shoulder rests. I personally am told that my neck is too long, so I was convinced to buy a different kind of shoulder rest or the taller one. Without shoulder rest, my neck is relaxed and all the pains caused by the fixed position of my violin on my shoulder and tight chin and neck are gone.
I’m 6’0” and play without a shoulder rest..
you can tell be heifetz standing next to erick friedman he was definitley not 5'1 lol, maybe like 5'8
I have struggled with all kinds of shoulder rest. I took the latest of and I feel more free playing. Will see what happens over time.
idk im 185cm, i think thats what yous call 6'0, and I play most comfortably without a shoulder rest, i find them only restrictive and cumbersome.
Interesting playing without a shoulder rest. We've all tried it. Seems more contemporary famous players use a SR. Without one it's fine in first position and even 3rd, but going up to 4th and higher etc.. the neck wants to clamp, the thumb has to work harder and you get tension the left shoulder comes up and slippage. However in 1st you certainly feel more connected.
Old school thinking, almost every contemporary violinist is using a shoulder rest.
Old Scholl is the best...
I am 6’2 and play without a shoulder rest but do use a Kreddle chin rest. Which allows for enough height to support my long neck. Tried three different shoulder rests including a bon musica. Not only were all three uncomfortable but they left my neck and shoulder feeling like I had been beat with a bag of rocks!
Personally, I do not think the shoulder rest was ever meant to be a “have to use” device. But thanks to assholes like Suzuki, it has become gospel.
Suzuki didn’t use one, nor did he teach anyone to use them. You don’t know what you’re talking about.
Ugh. Those violinists didn’t use shoulder rests because they weren’t available at the time!! Virtually every player now uses a shoulder rest of some kind, including Zukerman and many others who actually grew up without them. They are helpful for most people.
Of course shoulder rests were available to players, they chose not to use them.
@@frankwalker5040 No. Shoulder rests did not become available until sometime in the 1950s, and then of course the early designs weren’t very good at first, so musicians like my parents can’t remember anyone using using them in the 50s or 60s. They didn’t become widely used until the 70s and 80s. This is why most of the successful violinists of the early 1900s had very little neck, and why virtually no women played at a high level, since they typically have longer necks.
Augustin Hadelich, Anne Sophie Mutter
Using shoulder rest is like using condom.
I've got a crick in my neck from just looking at him.
I am so tired of men trying to tell women they don’t need a shoulder rest. How the heck would you know what it’s like to play violin in a female body?? We have longer necks and more narrower chests and shoulders. For most women, it is impossible to play properly without a shoulder rest, unless you just happen to have a very short neck. This is why almost every female soloist uses a shoulder rest: Hilary Hahn, Midori, Sarah Chang, Pamela Frank, Lucia Micarelli, Chloe Chua, Karen Gomyo, Nicola Benedetti, Maria Duenas, and the list can go on forever. These people are not misinformed. They are doing what is necessary to play the instrument in the bodies they were born in. It’s awfully rich for someone with a stocky build and no neck to go and tell someone with a neck that they shouldn’t use a shoulder rest. What absolute bullshit.
Maybe it's good to invite Anne-Sophie Mutter to give her thoughts on this issue Hilary Hahn has given her opinion on this issue. I don't think either using a shoulder rest or not using it is bullshit. Using shoulder rest has benefits and damages, not using it also. Please be open-minded, thanks!
I think you're missing out one important factor, and that is the chinrest. Many violinists who have long necks use a tall chinrest with a cup deep enough to support the violin with the weight of their head and in some cases combined with the support of their left thumb.
I am a woman with a long neck. I threw away my shoulder rest several years ago, and it was the best thing I ever did. I love the sound, and I love the freedom. If you have problems using no shoulder rest, you’re not doing it right. It takes time and patience to get the position and the balance correct.
Don't worry, when you 'smash the white patriarchy' that invented the violin and all the technique, so you can properly educate the future generations on how to play the violin. The real reason why almost all females need a rest is because it's easier and requires far less hand strength and endurance. You don't have more neck space, it only seems that way relative to your bodies, males are 5 inches taller on average.
Chip on your shoulder much? 😂😂😂
I disagree.
Hillary Hahn uses a shoulder rest