I don't use one and on the occasion that I do have to turn pages, turn the page with my bowing arm, or if I do have to do it with left hand, I just let the violin dip down.. it won't slip due to the "lip" on the edge of the chinrest.
As a viola player, I have always used shoulder rests simply because of the extended size, hence a lot more weight for your shoulder to support. But I did start on the violin without shoulder rest. One extremely important thing you said is the fact that the shoulder rest MUST match the chin rest. This is overlooked by almost everyone. Lovely to watch you, Julia. You're very calm, knowledgeable and charismatic (and a hell of a good player). Also, thank you for calling out those who just because think they hold the absolute truth for playing without shoulder rests, shame those who play with shoulder rests. That is ridiculous and bullyish behavior (especially coming from teachers), and that kind of behavior is simply not acceptable. I have heard a few sarcastic comments about shoulder rests before, but never felt ashamed for using one (even when it came from one particular teacher who I shall not mention the name). The dampening of the sound by shoulder rests really is negligible. A bad posture affects the sound a lot more than the shoulder rest itself.
I have used rests and no rest, but now prefer a fitted pad which attaches to the lower treble corner with an elastic band. You can get these as Gewa or Huber pads and they stop the violin slipping and give a clockwise small tilt which facilitates bowing angles. Also it stops you from hunching the left shoulder. Some of the top players today use rests such as Hilary Hahn and James Ehnes. Stern used a cushion, but under his shirt and not on the violin.
What a very wise teacher you are. When you mentioned "natural padding" at the shoulder I thought you were going to mention a nice big fat double chin. That is the Elephant in the living room for violinists . So Oistrakh used a discrete pad but also a big white handkerchief to dry his "double chin". Thankyou for a thorough Russian analysis .
I have a reasonably short neck and being deaf in my right ear I can hear and feel the instrument sound and vibration so much more without a shoulder rest. Of course the whole technique is different because you are supporting the violin with your left hand and not and not canterleavering the violin between your chin and shoulder. Many thanks for your teaching videos.
Ms Bushkova, I remember you from masterclasses from my youth when you were teaching in Canada near Niagara (course run by Mr. A. B.) I was really happy to find you on TH-cam!
Thank you for your video. I learned to play violin with a shoulder rest. As I advanced something kept me from advancing. I discovered the shoulder rest was hindering my performance I decided to remove it. Yes! Freedom! As a violin teacher I encourage the shoulder rest. I never discourage a student from exploring violin playing without a shoulder rest. The bottom line is it is an individual matter.
I play without a shoulder rest, I started years ago after watching the menuhin master classes. My neck is not very long so I rest my jaw on my chin rest and allow my completely relaxed head lock my violin in place.
That's exactly what I do. I too have a shorter neck and use the weight of my head to hold it in place, so no shoulder problems at all as I don't need to raise my left shoulder at all.
Very indepth analysis; very cool. Btw, I happened upon a violinist rock star who became a Violin designer and manufactures his own custom Violins and Violas, and he invented another kind of rest which is a strap harness over the shoulder with a ring at the front; the Violin has a hook at the bottom and two thin metal legs that braces against the players upper chest; this leaves the player extremely relaxed and can have total head and hands movement. It is most useful with electric violins and violas to use extreme hand movement without a supporting thumb. All very cool. The more people play music, the more happier a world. ciao.
Great video Professor ! I have a long neck and would never dream of playing without. I've tried and it becomes very uncomfortable in short order. My teachers were Mauricio Fuks and Gwen Thompson - Fuks, also a Heifetz student, had horrendous neck problems early in his career possibly from playing without. I know also that Zukerman tries to get his students to throw it away, yet I've seen him use padding under his jacket when he's played concertos with us. I had a student who recently went to attend Royal Conservatory in London - and the young female teacher she ended up with 'insisted' she discard the shoulder rest. She couldn't feel comfortable and kept it - the teacher told her to take it off or leave. I'm proud of her for walking out! She found a more open-minded teacher :)
Thank you for your valuable comment. I truly do not understand the recently raised antagonism between "with SR" vs "without SR". It should be obvious to anyone that people are built very differently and have very different hands physique as well. I wonder if the "Remove-SR" teachers would agree to wear shoes (or shirts) that are three sizes too small, let's say; probably, not. Why this sane approach is not applied to violin is beyond my comprehension :)
Very comprehensive, effective and the best video on the topic I have found! In this case, I think there was a noticeable difference in sound between the two methods.
I am super impressed and very much appreciating how well you put all the complicated issues of the violin to an understandable, digestable matters. It was always a big myth to me about how old masters played without. I really appreciate that you share such a gem knowledge to people like me, a bit lost sheep in the big violin field.. ! Thank you so so much professor Julia, I wish you the best and wonderful days..!!
Is a good video! I play without shoulder rest since years, and I always say: "don't play without shoulder rest trying to imitate how you did play with it, otherwise your shoulder will be rised all the time in an attempt to keep the violin up, and that's bad. It is a differente way to play, more difficult maybe, and it takes time...but highly rewarding..Also Szeryng played without..... P.S. congratulation, you play really well! (and you're handsome)
Thank you so much for this video. You have a lovely voice, and you don't chatter just to hear yourself talk. You also don't constantly repeat yourself. It was a joy to watch this, and so informative!
Nice video! I like your voice! Somehow it is very relaxing to listen to! Also you explain very clearly! I played one year without shoulder rest and without any padding or other support (influenced by Yehudi Menuhin's books). It was soundwise a very pleasing experience. I felt closer to the sound I made. I also developed a technique which let me shift. But over that year I suffered regularly with some serious headache, not even shoulder or neck pain. So only after I played with a shoulder rest again, I could see the problem clearly, when the regular headaches went away. Also I am quite tall for a violinist, like 1.86m, I think most of the "great" old masters weren't actually very big in height compared to nowadays average height. My experience with shoulder rests and sound is, that sometimes a more expensive shoulder rest (like a wood one) can leave you with less sound than a cheaper plastic shoulder rest. I think in the video I can also hear a big difference in sound when you play with and without the shoulder rest. And again: soundwise I highly prefer the sound without the shoulder rest! It sounds more grounded and at the same time clearer. Especially first position E-String with shoulder rest sounds very thin.. and that is the same experience I had. Without a shoulder rest it is much easier to have some kind of Fritz Kreisler sweetness on the E-String. Still I use a shoulder rest and would recommend to use one for 95% of my students.
Your video is one of the most helpful, if not the most helpful. Thank you, Madame. Zukerman puts a sponge wrapped in a carpet underneath his clothes. So did Isaac Stern, if you're ever wondering. They both laughed about it, on separate ocassions. I watched on TH-cam that they were amused of the fact that some students might be drawn to question how they were able to hold the violin with ease and pain-free, despite having long necks (on the contrary though, Isaac had a short neck). Heifetz's student Eric used shoulder rests in his later years. Maybe what you said about having chronic pain in the long run was applicable to him. His movements were indeed constricted but that might be because of his age, contrary to his early recordings wherein he played Tchaikovsky and he really lived the piece. My teacher who was taught by Max Rostal and Prof. Ulrick in Germany was brought up to not use the shoulder rest. When he came back to my country to serve as concertmaster in the country's leading orchestra, he came back to using a shoulder rest. But now, he has abandoned it completely and even in his retirement years he has not complained of any pain. He secures the violin by placing it on the collar bone and locking with the chin. He sounds much better now. He does not force me to do the same but is rather persuasive, if I can manage it. Again, thank you so very much.
Well done! When I saw the title of your video, I was expecting you to advocate for no shoulder rest. I was pleased to see your balanced approach to making a choice. I have known many who use one and many who don't. As you said, it's critical to fit the shoulder rest and chinrest to the player so that they are able to free up the shoulder.
Great video Julia! I have suffered with problems with chin-rest/shoulder-rest set up for around 4/5 years, ever since i first developed pain in my shoulder. After trying many chin rests and shoulder rests, as well as playing without, I'm still yet to find something that I find really comfortable. I love the sound I make without a rest, and I because of being more active with the thumb I feel more in tune with exactly what my Left Hand is doing, yet I find going over to the lower strings I lose my violin position and end up raising my shoulder as you described. With a shoulder rest I find myself much more free with shifting, yet because of my thick shoulders the shoulder rests bring my violin position into something much less comfortable and reduce the freedom in my shoulder and ability to bring my arm round the instrument, as well as changing the angle causing me to find it hard to get to the tip. Thanks for the informative video, great to watch somebody talking about this topic.
Thank you really, really much. This is the one video that ends all the debate and confusions about shoulder rest. As a beginner violinist this is super helpful for me!
I played the violin on both scenario (with and without a shoulder rest) and these are my experiences: Without: I have a better left hand grip and vibrato especially the pinky but I am losing smooth shifts. With: I love how my shifts sound especially when playing jazz, sounds like singing but I am losing a left hand grip, my vibrato is okay, my pinky vibrato though is horrible(it locks most of the time). I wish to have all the good sides but I have to choose one. "Mastery" is the only choice. Liked the video. :)
Did you mix up with and without shoulder rest? You lose left hand grip with shoulder rest? With a shoulder rest your left hand is more free. If you want more grip, then you can grip harder. With a rest, you literally have more freedom to do what you want with your left hand.
Great video. You play beautifully. Heifetz used shoulder pads. He had one sewn into all his jackets and suits. Zukerman also always used pads. He said the best one was his door stop...
Excellent video! I switched from using a shoulder rest to not using one. My shoulder had frozen and I was forced to change. Thankfully a friend of mine gave me some helpful advice and I was able to make the switch without damage. I don’t use my shoulder any longer. One tiny detail I would like to mention, if you use the no shoulder rest method without the use of the shoulder, one must develop a wrist vibrato rather than an arm vibrato. Most people in their careers switch from arm vibrato (shoulder rest or non shoulder rest) anyway but without a shoulder rest this becomes crucial.
Dear Ms. Bushkova, Thank you so much for this video! I've recently started to practice and work without a shoulder rest (I love your use of shoulder help much more) and your video calmed a lot of my worries. I have been afraid to make a switch but this helped my mind be more open to both approaches. It's great to have unbiased knowledge to reference! Not to mention its accessibility to everyone Thank you for the time you put into this:)
I started around the time you made this video with viola and violin a bit before that.. I’ve arrived at the point recently where I can sometimes play without a shoulder rest on either instrument. On intermediate stuff I still like the confidence that the shoulder rest provides, but on easier stuff, can play fine without one. Because of the larger size of the viola, it tends to be the easier instrument for me to go without the rest. Great video for the pros and cons and historical perspective..
Great explanation. Thanks . 🥰 It amazed me you could so seemingly easy shift between the two alternatives. Especially as I'm already struggling to play in one way 😄.
Thank you very much for your video. I found really helpful. It’s a pleasure to hear the tone and rhythm of your voice when explaining the topics. As usual, a marvellous present to me.
Your videos are excellent. My teacher taught me, the right way to play without shoulder rest and is different. The violin rest on the clavicle. My shoulder never touches the violin's back. When I play in a very high position by inertia the the violin goes down and approaches the shoulder. The important thing in the end is not play with support or without support, the Important thing is the music and that you feel free of some physical tension.
I am very glad to read your comment. I would be interested to see you playing a bit filmed from the right back side. Please let me know if you have any videos posted anywhere!
Just starting the violin being a mandolinist, and being of average size, have tried to get the feel of the instrument using both methods. I'm leaning towards without as the violin seems to naturally fit against the neck and collar bone supports the body of the violin without having to raise the shoulder. I use a folded pad used for lining kitchen drawers which is that black material that is fairly thick and well perforated. Folded to fit, it nicely lays across the shoulder and stays put. The violin will not slide off this material and very little chin pressure keeps it in place during hand slides.
8:40 Never felt more inept at anything in my life after watching that. Haha, but thank you! You make FANTASTIC videos! They're truly wonderful and informative!
Great video. May I mention that today there are many more chin rest models available. The most important development been the 'adjustable height' that enables longer necked players to more easily achieve a balanced position when using no shoulder rest. I also differentiate between 'ridged' versus 'flexible' SR and 'attachable' vs 'unattached' (usually sponge types) as these also change the physiological and technical 'experience' considerably. Firm sponge type SR are a sort of compromise experience. That are virtually weightless and can be easily cut to size/shape to suit individual needs. Continual assessment needs to be done especially with growing children.
These videos are excellent in every respect. The content, the clarity, the expertise. Very concise, highly relevant, easy to understand. (A small but nice feature, showing attention to detail, is the coordination of Professor Bushkova's outfit with the black and white of the piano!)
I love this video, I studied with Erick Friedman he used a shoulder rest after then removed it. You can see in the videos of him 1980s, his sound was always beautiful
Great video! I don’t know if it was the shoulder rest itself making the difference, or the freedom of not having it, but listening to you play without one: it sang more, with longer reverberation time, and sounded brighter with more higher harmonics. This could be the shoulder rest damping the violin, or the way you played, it’s difficult to tell, but you seemed more free without it! I personally gave up the shoulder rest because it kept falling off and it took up space in my case, and seemed to be an extra thing that takes up playing time! Now when I try to play with one I feel couped up, tight and immobile. I have a prominent collar bone, which I use as a table for the violin, which helps. I have not seen it compared so clearly as in your videos, and it has never been explained to me how it works with shoulder mobility, so it is really helpful to have it explained by someone with such a beautiful style! I am by no means a virtuoso or even a very good violin player, but I am grateful for your explanation. Thank you!
I am glad you find the video useful. To the question of which of the takes sounded better, here is a little story: I myself thought that the violin sounded a bit better without the rest, while my videographer had a different opinion. During the shoot, I played the examples 8 times: 4 with the rest and 4 without the rest. So afterward, I asked to play back all 8 in random order and I tried to tell (without looking) which one was which. I guessed only TWO of all 8! The ones I was sure were without the rest (i.e. they sounded freer, brighter, with more overtones, etc.) were played with the rest, and vice versa. So, I do not think the sound has anything to do with the reality. It DOES sound better right there near the ear of the player; however, all that is lost within 10-12 feet of space. The main thing is the freedom and comfort of playing. Good luck to you!
As an adult learner I couldn't get comfortable with a shoulder rest, had some pain and settled without a shoulder rest. I found my left hand had better feel around the finger board without a shoulder rest. I feel more "one" with the violin without a shoulder rest if that makes sense...but what do I know, I'm just in Suzuki book 4 and starting on Kreutzer Etudes.
Thank you for this extremely informative video. I wish my son's teacher would pay a bit attention to shoulder rest (the teacher's attitude on shoulder rest is very relaxed as in, "if it's comfortable, go for it") and as the result I have no idea if he is gripping with his shoulder or not (his teacher also never checked). I will check this next time he practices. He is a skinny child. Also, your choice of t-shirt is excellent as to I can see clearly when your shoulder move based on the lines on the t-shirt. Simply brilliant!! Thank you so, so much!
In a video of Leonid Kogan playing without a shoulder rest you can see him bend his wrist to readjust the violin under his chin . It was fitted in convenient points in the music . At the time I was looking at his arm vibrato . I used to bend my wrist ocassionally like that years ago .
Another con with the shoulder rest is that some cases don't have the space for a shoulder rest so it makes is so much easier to forget it. Also, I'm a violinist who plays the viola sometimes and for all 8 year's of playing, I've never even considered playing with a shoulder rest and I'm one of only 2 or 3 people in my orchestra who don't use one. I've always found it weird - and still do sometimes to be honest - to use a shoulder rest (mostly because I've never used one during conventional practicing) and people who use them think I'm weird for not using one (I assume their teachers taught them to use them when practicing). Nothing wrong with people who do use them, but I usually outright refuse to use one (even when my current teacher and parents told me to consider getting one) and that's just because I'm stubborn and I had a bad experience with shoulder rest in the past (I didn't get hurt or anything, but the rest was a piece of shit and wouldn't stay on my violin, and it was so bad, that I consider it to be a potential hazard - and I still have it to this very day and hasn't been touched for at least 2 years). I feel like as long as you have a very very good posture, it's optional to get one but you don't need it. A lot of the times - and I don't mean this in a mean way or anything - violinist I came across that used shoulder rest (or pads) had terrible postures when trying to play without one (and sometimes even with one on). And these people knew how to play, so it's not like they didn't have skill. And I don't like to brag, but I have a good posture and pride myself on having one because I feel like it's very important. My first teacher and my father (who wasn't a violinist but works out a lot and what a medical pro in the US Air Force) taught me that posture was very important. It's important that when playing a violin or viola (this is a lesson most violinist and violist should know, so y'all listen up, also, from this point on, I am no longer saying viola in this comment, just assume that I mean violin and viola unless I say otherwise) that you're posture is correct because the violin is already in a very unnatural holding position (not because humans can't hold things that way but because you're not supposed to hold anything that way for long periods of time), so keeping a good posture ensures that you won't have a messed up back, neck, shoulder, or arms. One, you should always have your back (more or less) straight - this doesn't mean it has to be perfect, but don't be all bent up and bent in a very uncomfortable position - this is why you don't sit back in a chair when playing. Two, you should have your whole palm touching the neck of the instrument. Not only is this not good for your wrist, it makes it harder and miserable to play anything that requires any position higher than 1st position. It needs to be out and away from the neck. Lastly, when holding in playing position, you want to hold it the right way, but in a comfortable position otherwise it will bother you neck, shoulder, and collar bone (and maybe you're back too). I can't really tell you how to do this one, this is something you as an individual have to figure out. Another pro for the shoulder rest is that if you have terrible posture, it kinda fixes it because is sorta forces you into the right position, but this pro is only relevant to people who don't have good postures. Mine is pretty good, and my teacher never acted like I needed one so badly, so I never considered getting one.
Thank you so much, you have answered so many questions especially throughout your demonstrations! You very quickly showed from the video the front position ( high) the wrist, which as I play very tense in the wrist arpeggios especially Paganini number 5, the highest notes, I have seen so many different hand positions with the thumb, I am very confused with a shoulder rest how to go up and down without straining my wrist, yet violinists seem never to move the hand position and extend to play it! Shoulder rest and no shoulder rest, what a problem! If you have the time to give tips that would be wonderful, many many thanks, Larry
Great video, thank you. I've studied for some years (although I never was a very good player), and one of the reasons I left it was because after playing for a while I got of pain in my shoulders, back and arms, every time. I'm currently trying to practice again, I guess 'll have to invesigate a little and try different options of shoulder rests, chin rests, etc.
I have returned to the violin at 64. Now I have a neck C4 C5 problem, and also a deep partial tear in my left shoulder muscle. So the shoulder rest is the only way for me to avoid pain. But I guess I'm a special case. And I've had to relearn muscular movements which were automatic when I was young
Many years ago, I decided to start playing the violin without a shoulder rest. It turned out that the issue was not SR vs NSR, but the difficulty of supporting the violin with the left arm/hand. I essentially needed to relearn how to play the violin in order to do this. Since I was relatively young and had plenty of time on my hands, I was able to regain my skills. I'm not sure I would be able to go through that now that I am quite a bit older.
Thanks for your insights Julia What's your argument to those who insist on not using a shoulder rest? They claim that way their violin resonates freer with bigger sound. In theory that may be true, but I feel comfort is priority. Agree? If I follow my ideal philosophy of simplicity and simplify by ditching the shoulder, then I'll be fussing with experimenting with the right chinrest or some pad......Which actually defeats the purpose of simplicity.
S shaped shoulder rest cause neck pain to some people. For me free from shoulder rest was best liberation. Heifetz told all of his students not to use s.rest, women too. Do not try to hold violin only with your neck if not using the s rest. Without the rest left hand touch with violin neck is essential.
I have a scoliosis, rigid neck (not yogi at all...), thumb arthrisis beginning, several muscular pains, no natural pad at all. So the soulder rest is very useful to let the right hand (thumb pain...) free. Play with a soulder rest is like hiking (I live in french Alpes) : you should be able to talk, that means that the neck keep free.
Great video, information, and playing! (by a pretty lady no less...) I am a beginner, and I had the shoulder rest on backwards... Sad... But now I am happy! I drive a standard, and maybe in a month or so, I will try playing W/O the "help"... IMHO
I would fly to N Texas especially to consult you re: positioning and setup of my violin! Upper right arm pain is beginning to set in. Thank you for such a great video - from a struggling adult learner... BSA
I've tried playing with and without. I've found it to be easier to hit notes correctly without a rest (and I'm a relative beginner at THIS instrument, but proficient in piano, guitar, theory and composition, etc). However, the slippage is real. So I have a found a very good compromise.... My shoulder rest (a Kun) is as low as possible. Secondly, and this is very important, I have the "shoulder side" of the rest as far towards the middle of the violin as possible (right before the bottom left of the ribbing flares out), and the other side of the rest is pretty much at the bottom-right of the violin's body. So this allows the base of the violin to rest on my clavicle, as it should, and yet the shoulder rest acts as a "stop" to keep the violin from slipping off. I will also mention that I'm about 5'11" and lanky, and I usually practice while wearing a fleece robe (or a hoodie, depending on daytime clothing or pajamas hahaha), so this is what I've found to work best for me.
My personal experience of playing restless is that finding the right chin-rest is critical. It needs to be high enough that you need a minimum drop of the jaw to get a snug fit, so the neck retains a natural and safe angle. To my eye, many people seem to be using chin-rests that are far too low for them. And I find it helpful if the chin-rest has a bit of a lip, so it stays secure on the down-shift with minimum pressure. With this set-up, I find I can shift without having to raise the shoulder or move the thumb in advance. Perhaps I'm lucky with the shape of my collar-bone, but it all feels very secure and relaxed. I only need to lift the shoulder for page-turning or tuning, and even then it's minimal. But it did take a year or two of experimentation to find this setup - at the outset it's more challenging than using a shoulder-rest, so you have to be motivated to work though the difficulties. Personally, I hated the feel of the shoulder-rest, so I was happy to make the effort. I would never go back now.
Thanks for your thoughtful comment. Yes, it takes a year or two to switch for those who are lucky on both counts - the patience and the right upper body.
Olá, Júlia!... Muito bom este vídeo, e bastante esclarecedor! De uma forma bastante equilibrada, e imparcial, você demonstrou que na verdade, entre usar ou não o acessório, cada violinista deve buscar a melhor forma de tocar, que se adapte ao seu biotipo sem ser pesado... Gostei muito!
Dear Professor Bushova - I am truly a fan of your incisive informative videos. I'm a beginner who cannot get comfortable with a shoulder rest - I've tried for over a year (3 different brands) I want to play without one. You showed shifting with no shoulder rest. I want to learn vibrato and have seen others who say vibrating is more difficult (or different) with no shoulder rest. I was hoping you'd demonstrate that. Do you squeeze the instrument between your chin and shoulder to hold it steady?
Vibrato is in some ways different without the shoulder rest - like everything else is, actually. Whether it is more difficult or not, depends on the person. Vibrato in the upper positions is not much different as you can see in my wrist vibrato video. In lower positions, it would be.
Excelente video muchas gracias. Ojalá alguien pueda traducir al español. Hay muy poca información en nuestro idioma tan perfectamente bien explicado como lo has hecho. Mil gracias felicidades por tu buen trabajo
I am a long time player, and have always used a shoulder rest. However just now I am finding that I have some severe shoulder pain. In looking at a lot of videos like this - I have seen that using the shoulder rest does NOT necessarily stop the clenching of the shoulder. Indeed in working through my difficulties, I have realized that the shoulder pad ENCOURAGES the squeezing of the shoulder in order to use the rest for its purpose of holding the violin with it - going back to our early childhood when one of the first lessons was learning how to hold the violin WITHOUT using the arm. While the rest allows us to not APPEAR to lift the shoulder, It seems to me that by NOT having a shoulder rest we are encouraged to eschew the use of the shoulder to actually hold the violin at all - making it much easier to relax the shoulder. At any rate I plan on trying that method after over 60 years of playing. I'll let you know how it goes!
I find it the most useful to try 'the other' method, correctly. If done correctly, switching to the opposite method may be beneficial. I am glad that I learned to play without the rest and performed like that for a year. Even though I did return back to the rest eventually, it was with a different understanding.
Hello Professor, thank you so much for the video as it was very informative. I have been playing the violin for a long time now and am messing around with and without shoulder rest. I just wondered if you had any advice on how best to vibrate when not using a shoulder rest. I feel that I must be doing something wrong since, in order not to drop my instrument, my first finger has to contact the neck of the instrument (in low positions) but this makes it very difficult to vibrate since there is now that friction between the first finger and the instrument. Thanks so much from England!!
Thank yo very much. After endless search, finally someone saw all my problems and answered them, the pain from rising shoulder, i like the sound and vibration without SR, but my neck is long, I was wondering whether it is because they have short neck, my favourite violinists don't use SR i always feel very uncomfortable without it, i have tried many times to remove it, i will accept my situation, use a SR
To be honest, the people I know that are used to playing without a shoulder rest do not raise their shoulder region (it's still part of the collar bone, anatomically speaking, which is actually part of your arm) because through the proper balance of the thumb and the proper movement of the arm leading the shoulder blade in movement in shifting up or down, there is no need to raise the "shoulder". Strength in the left hand is not needed to hold up the violin- you use muscles in the side and back of your body to support the arm and because you have additional support in the head gently resting the jaw ( sometimes the chin as well) on the chin rest that should be of sufficient height to not require your head to drop down very much) and the violin resting into the side of your neck, and the bow stabilizing the instrument as it rests on the strings, you do not need to "hold" your arm in space and do not require lots of built up muscle. Everything is in a dynamic balance moving around without requiring strength building exercises to hold up dead weight. Also, the violin weighs only a pound and 1/4-1/3 of that rests in the hand, the rest on the collar bone. I would examine the following video for further elucidation: vimeo.com/163487675
The main point of my video is to provide clarity on the issue and calm down the fruitless debate of what is better, 'with' or 'without.' I am happy you have met those people who do not raise their shoulder region while playing 'without'. In my long life in music, I met only one - Sir Yehudi Menuhin. The rest of those I closely observed, all raise the shoulder here or there (or a lot) - although many profess not doing so. The video you are referring to is done by my younger colleague Jonathan Schwarz. There is nothing new in it - but it is a nice pep talk for those who contemplate playing shoulder-rest-less.
Reporting my own restless bias here but... You sound so much better without a shoulder rest :) Your tone has more "core" and the bow seems to "stick" a whole lot better. The biggest hurdle for students and teachers is basiclly relarning the entire left hand technique. When a student proposes restlessness to a rested teacher who's never fathomed even trying playing without one... It's easy to understand why a vast majority recommend playing with a shoulder rest, because... Because they don't know any other way, simple as that. My own gripe with these contraptions is the loss of shoulder mobility in higher positions, especially on the G string. The shoulder naturally wants to come close to the violin, but the rest puts a hard stop to it. PS: Even you won't commit to it, you should nonetheless learn how to play restless. It helps reframe the hand into a better position. PPS: Watch Hilary Hahn shift and see her thumb working as there's no rest.
"You sound so much better without a shoulder rest" is what I usually hear from the 'restless' players :) I teach quite a few rest-less students and also those who switch back-and-forth. The whole point of the video is quell the unnecessary dichotomy of the "rest or no rest".
Without a shoulder rest, a larger area of the back of the violin is in contact with the shoulder. Doesn't that take away sound more than the spots where the shoulder rest touches the violin?
There are techniques you can play without having the back contacting the shoulder. It's that we have to support the violin with our left hand yet be relax. So by that mean, only the area around the end block of the violin contacts the collar bone. The left shoulder is just free in the air.
No because you're less clamped down on it. The violin is made to project sound into the air. Only if you clam will it dampen the vibration. Something I do is to use a shoulder rest but only clamp when necessary to let my violin speak more. It sounds the best without a shoulder rest, but eh. It's hard to play like that.
I have left arm soreness shoulder and elbow so I decided to experiment without the shoulder rest. This is just my first day but I've been so terrified of not using my shoulder rest. What I discovered is that I can play without the shoulder rest and my violin sounds better. But even thinking about it right now terrifies me lol
I'm returning to playing and have decided that I'm still not comfortable with a shoulder rest so why not try without. I don't know if anyone agrees but in your two demonstrations, I prefer the sound without the rest.
During a master class in China, Itzhak Perlman was asked why he didn't use a shoulder rest. He answered by sending his right hand under his jacket, up to his left shoulder, and producing a sponge rubber. This I had seen in a YT video many years ago, which I can no longer locate on YT. So, yes, Perlman used a shoulder pad.
My shoulder rest appreciation is highest while turning pages in the orchestra.
Become concert master, and have the person next to you turn pages ... heh heh!
I don't use one and on the occasion that I do have to turn pages, turn the page with my bowing arm, or if I do have to do it with left hand, I just let the violin dip down.. it won't slip due to the "lip" on the edge of the chinrest.
😂
The first teacher to comment on the physical demands of the violin. 👏🏽👏🏽
As a viola player, I have always used shoulder rests simply because of the extended size, hence a lot more weight for your shoulder to support. But I did start on the violin without shoulder rest. One extremely important thing you said is the fact that the shoulder rest MUST match the chin rest. This is overlooked by almost everyone. Lovely to watch you, Julia. You're very calm, knowledgeable and charismatic (and a hell of a good player). Also, thank you for calling out those who just because think they hold the absolute truth for playing without shoulder rests, shame those who play with shoulder rests. That is ridiculous and bullyish behavior (especially coming from teachers), and that kind of behavior is simply not acceptable. I have heard a few sarcastic comments about shoulder rests before, but never felt ashamed for using one (even when it came from one particular teacher who I shall not mention the name). The dampening of the sound by shoulder rests really is negligible. A bad posture affects the sound a lot more than the shoulder rest itself.
Thank you very much for your detailed and thoughtful comment.
I am glad to have found another unbiased and analytical professional colleague.
😢😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😮😂😊😅😊😊😊😊😊😊😊
I have used rests and no rest, but now prefer a fitted pad which attaches to the lower treble corner with an elastic band. You can get these as Gewa or Huber pads and they stop the violin slipping and give a clockwise small tilt which facilitates bowing angles. Also it stops you from hunching the left shoulder. Some of the top players today use rests such as Hilary Hahn and James Ehnes. Stern used a cushion, but under his shirt and not on the violin.
What a very wise teacher you are. When you mentioned "natural padding" at the shoulder I thought you were going to mention a nice big fat double chin. That is the Elephant in the living room for violinists . So Oistrakh used a discrete pad but also a big white handkerchief to dry his "double chin". Thankyou for a thorough Russian analysis .
I have a reasonably short neck and being deaf in my right ear I can hear and feel the instrument sound and vibration so much more without a shoulder rest. Of course the whole technique is different because you are supporting the violin with your left hand and not and not canterleavering the violin between your chin and shoulder. Many thanks for your teaching videos.
Ms Bushkova, I remember you from masterclasses from my youth when you were teaching in Canada near Niagara (course run by Mr. A. B.) I was really happy to find you on TH-cam!
Excellent, first-class video - your explanation is so clear! And no 'uptalk' or 'vocal fry'! Your articulation is so clear and easy to listen to.
Thank you for your video. I learned to play violin with a shoulder rest. As I advanced something kept me from advancing. I discovered the shoulder rest was hindering my performance I decided to remove it. Yes! Freedom!
As a violin teacher I encourage the shoulder rest. I never discourage a student from exploring violin playing without a shoulder rest.
The bottom line is it is an individual matter.
I play without a shoulder rest, I started years ago after watching the menuhin master classes. My neck is not very long so I rest my jaw on my chin rest and allow my completely relaxed head lock my violin in place.
That's exactly what I do. I too have a shorter neck and use the weight of my head to hold it in place, so no shoulder problems at all as I don't need to raise my left shoulder at all.
Very indepth analysis; very cool. Btw, I happened upon a violinist rock star who became a Violin designer and manufactures his own custom Violins and Violas, and he invented another kind of rest which is a strap harness over the shoulder with a ring at the front; the Violin has a hook at the bottom and two thin metal legs that braces against the players upper chest; this leaves the player extremely relaxed and can have total head and hands movement. It is most useful with electric violins and violas to use extreme hand movement without a supporting thumb. All very cool. The more people play music, the more happier a world. ciao.
This video is so nice. The history, technique and nice message. Thank you so much.
Great video Professor ! I have a long neck and would never dream of playing without. I've tried and it becomes very uncomfortable in short order. My teachers were Mauricio Fuks and Gwen Thompson - Fuks, also a Heifetz student, had horrendous neck problems early in his career possibly from playing without. I know also that Zukerman tries to get his students to throw it away, yet I've seen him use padding under his jacket when he's played concertos with us.
I had a student who recently went to attend Royal Conservatory in London - and the young female teacher she ended up with 'insisted' she discard the shoulder rest. She couldn't feel comfortable and kept it - the teacher told her to take it off or leave. I'm proud of her for walking out! She found a more open-minded teacher :)
Thank you for your valuable comment. I truly do not understand the recently raised antagonism between "with SR" vs "without SR". It should be obvious to anyone that people are built very differently and have very different hands physique as well. I wonder if the "Remove-SR" teachers would agree to wear shoes (or shirts) that are three sizes too small, let's say; probably, not. Why this sane approach is not applied to violin is beyond my comprehension :)
Very comprehensive, effective and the best video on the topic I have found!
In this case, I think there was a noticeable difference in sound between the two methods.
I am super impressed and very much appreciating how well you put all the complicated issues of the violin to an understandable, digestable matters. It was always a big myth to me about how old masters played without. I really appreciate that you share such a gem knowledge to people like me, a bit lost sheep in the big violin field.. ! Thank you so so much professor Julia, I wish you the best and wonderful days..!!
Thank you, Prof. Bushkova, for sharing your knowledge and wisdom!
Is a good video! I play without shoulder rest since years, and I always say: "don't play without shoulder rest trying to imitate how you did play with it, otherwise your shoulder will be rised all the time in an attempt to keep the violin up, and that's bad. It is a differente way to play, more difficult maybe, and it takes time...but highly rewarding..Also Szeryng played without..... P.S. congratulation, you play really well! (and you're handsome)
A wonderful thinker and teacher. And such a warm personality. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and understanding of violin playing.
Thank you so much for this extremely helpful and open minded video. Clear, informative and thought provoking.
Thanks for this video. You showed pros and cons of both sides and gave us enough material to try it out and make a choice.
Julia , I´m from Mexico. I like your violin clases thank you for learning english, and speeak slowly. I can understand you a lot.
I am glad to hear this!
And I was just about to answer to someone who wants to speed my videos up 1.75 times :)))
Thank you so much for this video. You have a lovely voice, and you don't chatter just to hear yourself talk. You also don't constantly repeat yourself. It was a joy to watch this, and so informative!
Thank you - glad it was helpful
What an eye opener. Great video!!!
Nice video! I like your voice! Somehow it is very relaxing to listen to! Also you explain very clearly! I played one year without shoulder rest and without any padding or other support (influenced by Yehudi Menuhin's books). It was soundwise a very pleasing experience. I felt closer to the sound I made. I also developed a technique which let me shift. But over that year I suffered regularly with some serious headache, not even shoulder or neck pain. So only after I played with a shoulder rest again, I could see the problem clearly, when the regular headaches went away. Also I am quite tall for a violinist, like 1.86m, I think most of the "great" old masters weren't actually very big in height compared to nowadays average height.
My experience with shoulder rests and sound is, that sometimes a more expensive shoulder rest (like a wood one) can leave you with less sound than a cheaper plastic shoulder rest.
I think in the video I can also hear a big difference in sound when you play with and without the shoulder rest. And again: soundwise I highly prefer the sound without the shoulder rest! It sounds more grounded and at the same time clearer. Especially first position E-String with shoulder rest sounds very thin.. and that is the same experience I had. Without a shoulder rest it is much easier to have some kind of Fritz Kreisler sweetness on the E-String.
Still I use a shoulder rest and would recommend to use one for 95% of my students.
You
Thank you, Julia for this very helpful information. Very clearly presented, and much appreciated.
Your video is one of the most helpful, if not the most helpful. Thank you, Madame. Zukerman puts a sponge wrapped in a carpet underneath his clothes. So did Isaac Stern, if you're ever wondering. They both laughed about it, on separate ocassions. I watched on TH-cam that they were amused of the fact that some students might be drawn to question how they were able to hold the violin with ease and pain-free, despite having long necks (on the contrary though, Isaac had a short neck). Heifetz's student Eric used shoulder rests in his later years. Maybe what you said about having chronic pain in the long run was applicable to him. His movements were indeed constricted but that might be because of his age, contrary to his early recordings wherein he played Tchaikovsky and he really lived the piece. My teacher who was taught by Max Rostal and Prof. Ulrick in Germany was brought up to not use the shoulder rest. When he came back to my country to serve as concertmaster in the country's leading orchestra, he came back to using a shoulder rest. But now, he has abandoned it completely and even in his retirement years he has not complained of any pain. He secures the violin by placing it on the collar bone and locking with the chin. He sounds much better now. He does not force me to do the same but is rather persuasive, if I can manage it. Again, thank you so very much.
Thank you for such a well balanced presentation. It was so helpful to have some insight in to the history 😃👍
Thank you dear Aunt! Absolutely fantastic video.
Well done! When I saw the title of your video, I was expecting you to advocate for no shoulder rest. I was pleased to see your balanced approach to making a choice. I have known many who use one and many who don't. As you said, it's critical to fit the shoulder rest and chinrest to the player so that they are able to free up the shoulder.
Great video Julia! I have suffered with problems with chin-rest/shoulder-rest set up for around 4/5 years, ever since i first developed pain in my shoulder. After trying many chin rests and shoulder rests, as well as playing without, I'm still yet to find something that I find really comfortable.
I love the sound I make without a rest, and I because of being more active with the thumb I feel more in tune with exactly what my Left Hand is doing, yet I find going over to the lower strings I lose my violin position and end up raising my shoulder as you described.
With a shoulder rest I find myself much more free with shifting, yet because of my thick shoulders the shoulder rests bring my violin position into something much less comfortable and reduce the freedom in my shoulder and ability to bring my arm round the instrument, as well as changing the angle causing me to find it hard to get to the tip.
Thanks for the informative video, great to watch somebody talking about this topic.
Thank you Julia, for this wonderful video
Thank you really, really much. This is the one video that ends all the debate and confusions about shoulder rest. As a beginner violinist this is super helpful for me!
I played the violin on both scenario (with and without a shoulder rest) and these are my experiences:
Without: I have a better left hand grip and vibrato especially the pinky but I am losing smooth shifts.
With: I love how my shifts sound especially when playing jazz, sounds like singing but I am losing a left hand grip, my vibrato is okay, my pinky vibrato though is horrible(it locks most of the time).
I wish to have all the good sides but I have to choose one. "Mastery" is the only choice.
Liked the video. :)
Did you mix up with and without shoulder rest? You lose left hand grip with shoulder rest?
With a shoulder rest your left hand is more free. If you want more grip, then you can grip harder. With a rest, you literally have more freedom to do what you want with your left hand.
Great video. You play beautifully. Heifetz used shoulder pads. He had one sewn into all his jackets and suits. Zukerman also always used pads. He said the best one was his door stop...
I am kind of saying this in a 'nice' form :) Thank you!
Excellent video! I switched from using a shoulder rest to not using one. My shoulder had frozen and I was forced to change. Thankfully a friend of mine gave me some helpful advice and I was able to make the switch without damage. I don’t use my shoulder any longer. One tiny detail I would like to mention, if you use the no shoulder rest method without the use of the shoulder, one must develop a wrist vibrato rather than an arm vibrato. Most people in their careers switch from arm vibrato (shoulder rest or non shoulder rest) anyway but without a shoulder rest this becomes crucial.
I admire You so much, dear teacrher ❤❤❤
Dear Ms. Bushkova,
Thank you so much for this video! I've recently started to practice and work without a shoulder rest (I love your use of shoulder help much more) and your video calmed a lot of my worries. I have been afraid to make a switch but this helped my mind be more open to both approaches. It's great to have unbiased knowledge to reference! Not to mention its accessibility to everyone
Thank you for the time you put into this:)
You have excellent posture. And that is where it starts! Great message at the end. Thank you for this informative video.
Fantastic presentation! Many thanks, professor
Love this video and how you reveal both the pros and cons of both sides. Excellent!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Simply amazing to listen and to watch . I wish !!
I started around the time you made this video with viola and violin a bit before that.. I’ve arrived at the point recently where I can sometimes play without a shoulder rest on either instrument. On intermediate stuff I still like the confidence that the shoulder rest provides, but on easier stuff, can play fine without one. Because of the larger size of the viola, it tends to be the easier instrument for me to go without the rest. Great video for the pros and cons and historical perspective..
Great explanation. Thanks . 🥰
It amazed me you could so seemingly easy shift between the two alternatives.
Especially as I'm already struggling to play in one way 😄.
Thank you very much for your video. I found really helpful. It’s a pleasure to hear the tone and rhythm of your voice when explaining the topics. As usual, a marvellous present to me.
Your videos are excellent. My teacher taught me, the right way to play without shoulder rest and is different. The violin rest on the clavicle. My shoulder never touches the violin's back. When I play in a very high position by inertia the the violin goes down and approaches the shoulder. The important thing in the end is not play with support or without support, the Important thing is the music and that you feel free of some physical tension.
I am very glad to read your comment. I would be interested to see you playing a bit filmed from the right back side. Please let me know if you have any videos posted anywhere!
I didn’t think I would hear it, but the sound was actually better when you played without!
Just starting the violin being a mandolinist, and being of average size, have tried to get the feel of the instrument using both methods. I'm leaning towards without as the violin seems to naturally fit against the neck and collar bone supports the body of the violin without having to raise the shoulder. I use a folded pad used for lining kitchen drawers which is that black material that is fairly thick and well perforated. Folded to fit, it nicely lays across the shoulder and stays put. The violin will not slide off this material and very little chin pressure keeps it in place during hand slides.
Drawer liner! Hadn't thought of that but I like it and will try it, thanks! Also, 7 months in, I wonder how you're getting on with your solution
8:40 Never felt more inept at anything in my life after watching that.
Haha, but thank you! You make FANTASTIC videos! They're truly wonderful and informative!
Great video. May I mention that today there are many more chin rest models available. The most important development been the 'adjustable height' that enables longer necked players to more easily achieve a balanced position when using no shoulder rest. I also differentiate between 'ridged' versus 'flexible' SR and 'attachable' vs 'unattached' (usually sponge types) as these also change the physiological and technical 'experience' considerably. Firm sponge type SR are a sort of compromise experience. That are virtually weightless and can be easily cut to size/shape to suit individual needs. Continual assessment needs to be done especially with growing children.
Thank you for your thoughtful and useful comment.
Not only a virtuoso but especially the great gift of personal sound and elegant body language in performance love and affection from admirer .
Thank you
These videos are excellent in every respect. The content, the clarity, the expertise. Very concise, highly relevant, easy to understand. (A small but nice feature, showing attention to detail, is the coordination of Professor Bushkova's outfit with the black and white of the piano!)
I love this video, I studied with Erick Friedman he used a shoulder rest after then removed it. You can see in the videos of him 1980s, his sound was always beautiful
I just love listening to her talk
Thanks :)
Thank you!
Great video! I don’t know if it was the shoulder rest itself making the difference, or the freedom of not having it, but listening to you play without one: it sang more, with longer reverberation time, and sounded brighter with more higher harmonics. This could be the shoulder rest damping the violin, or the way you played, it’s difficult to tell, but you seemed more free without it! I personally gave up the shoulder rest because it kept falling off and it took up space in my case, and seemed to be an extra thing that takes up playing time! Now when I try to play with one I feel couped up, tight and immobile. I have a prominent collar bone, which I use as a table for the violin, which helps. I have not seen it compared so clearly as in your videos, and it has never been explained to me how it works with shoulder mobility, so it is really helpful to have it explained by someone with such a beautiful style! I am by no means a virtuoso or even a very good violin player, but I am grateful for your explanation. Thank you!
I am glad you find the video useful. To the question of which of the takes sounded better, here is a little story: I myself thought that the violin sounded a bit better without the rest, while my videographer had a different opinion. During the shoot, I played the examples 8 times: 4 with the rest and 4 without the rest. So afterward, I asked to play back all 8 in random order and I tried to tell (without looking) which one was which. I guessed only TWO of all 8! The ones I was sure were without the rest (i.e. they sounded freer, brighter, with more overtones, etc.) were played with the rest, and vice versa. So, I do not think the sound has anything to do with the reality. It DOES sound better right there near the ear of the player; however, all that is lost within 10-12 feet of space. The main thing is the freedom and comfort of playing. Good luck to you!
As an adult learner I couldn't get comfortable with a shoulder rest, had some pain and settled without a shoulder rest. I found my left hand had better feel around the finger board without a shoulder rest. I feel more "one" with the violin without a shoulder rest if that makes sense...but what do I know, I'm just in Suzuki book 4 and starting on Kreutzer Etudes.
Such good points presented here. Thank you very much
Glad you enjoyed it!
Thank you for this extremely informative video. I wish my son's teacher would pay a bit attention to shoulder rest (the teacher's attitude on shoulder rest is very relaxed as in, "if it's comfortable, go for it") and as the result I have no idea if he is gripping with his shoulder or not (his teacher also never checked). I will check this next time he practices. He is a skinny child. Also, your choice of t-shirt is excellent as to I can see clearly when your shoulder move based on the lines on the t-shirt. Simply brilliant!! Thank you so, so much!
This video is very helpful, thank you for sharing it ❤
thank you...what a great lesson and loveable teacher!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Great video ..i never used a shoulder rest when i was younger ..but as i got older and body changed i need 1 now ..Merry Xmas !
In a video of Leonid Kogan playing without a shoulder rest you can see him bend his wrist to readjust the violin under his chin . It was fitted in convenient points in the music . At the time I was looking at his arm vibrato . I used to bend my wrist ocassionally like that years ago .
Beatiful passage that you play!
Another con with the shoulder rest is that some cases don't have the space for a shoulder rest so it makes is so much easier to forget it. Also, I'm a violinist who plays the viola sometimes and for all 8 year's of playing, I've never even considered playing with a shoulder rest and I'm one of only 2 or 3 people in my orchestra who don't use one.
I've always found it weird - and still do sometimes to be honest - to use a shoulder rest (mostly because I've never used one during conventional practicing) and people who use them think I'm weird for not using one (I assume their teachers taught them to use them when practicing). Nothing wrong with people who do use them, but I usually outright refuse to use one (even when my current teacher and parents told me to consider getting one) and that's just because I'm stubborn and I had a bad experience with shoulder rest in the past (I didn't get hurt or anything, but the rest was a piece of shit and wouldn't stay on my violin, and it was so bad, that I consider it to be a potential hazard - and I still have it to this very day and hasn't been touched for at least 2 years). I feel like as long as you have a very very good posture, it's optional to get one but you don't need it. A lot of the times - and I don't mean this in a mean way or anything - violinist I came across that used shoulder rest (or pads) had terrible postures when trying to play without one (and sometimes even with one on). And these people knew how to play, so it's not like they didn't have skill. And I don't like to brag, but I have a good posture and pride myself on having one because I feel like it's very important. My first teacher and my father (who wasn't a violinist but works out a lot and what a medical pro in the US Air Force) taught me that posture was very important. It's important that when playing a violin or viola (this is a lesson most violinist and violist should know, so y'all listen up, also, from this point on, I am no longer saying viola in this comment, just assume that I mean violin and viola unless I say otherwise) that you're posture is correct because the violin is already in a very unnatural holding position (not because humans can't hold things that way but because you're not supposed to hold anything that way for long periods of time), so keeping a good posture ensures that you won't have a messed up back, neck, shoulder, or arms. One, you should always have your back (more or less) straight - this doesn't mean it has to be perfect, but don't be all bent up and bent in a very uncomfortable position - this is why you don't sit back in a chair when playing. Two, you should have your whole palm touching the neck of the instrument. Not only is this not good for your wrist, it makes it harder and miserable to play anything that requires any position higher than 1st position. It needs to be out and away from the neck. Lastly, when holding in playing position, you want to hold it the right way, but in a comfortable position otherwise it will bother you neck, shoulder, and collar bone (and maybe you're back too). I can't really tell you how to do this one, this is something you as an individual have to figure out. Another pro for the shoulder rest is that if you have terrible posture, it kinda fixes it because is sorta forces you into the right position, but this pro is only relevant to people who don't have good postures. Mine is pretty good, and my teacher never acted like I needed one so badly, so I never considered getting one.
That's very helpful, thank you very much
Thank you so much, you have answered so many questions especially throughout your demonstrations! You very quickly showed from the video the front position ( high) the wrist, which as I play very tense in the wrist arpeggios especially Paganini number 5, the highest notes, I have seen so many different hand positions with the thumb, I am very confused with a shoulder rest how to go up and down without straining my wrist, yet violinists seem never to move the hand position and extend to play it! Shoulder rest and no shoulder rest, what a problem! If you have the time to give tips that would be wonderful, many many thanks,
Larry
Great video, thank you. I've studied for some years (although I never was a very good player), and one of the reasons I left it was because after playing for a while I got of pain in my shoulders, back and arms, every time. I'm currently trying to practice again, I guess 'll have to invesigate a little and try different options of shoulder rests, chin rests, etc.
MARC IS YOUR NEPHEW? Whoa, what a talented family!!
Yes, he sure is :)
I have returned to the violin at 64. Now I have a neck C4 C5 problem, and also a deep partial tear in my left shoulder muscle. So the shoulder rest is the only way for me to avoid pain. But I guess I'm a special case.
And I've had to relearn muscular movements which were automatic when I was young
Most professional violinists use some form of the shoulder support. I would say that fewer of us play without any support. So do not feel bad!
I'm from twoset. When Julia mentions Hahn, I'm like yayyyyyyyyyyyyy
Many years ago, I decided to start playing the violin without a shoulder rest. It turned out that the issue was not SR vs NSR, but the difficulty of supporting the violin with the left arm/hand. I essentially needed to relearn how to play the violin in order to do this. Since I was relatively young and had plenty of time on my hands, I was able to regain my skills. I'm not sure I would be able to go through that now that I am quite a bit older.
Thanks for your insights Julia
What's your argument to those who insist on not using a shoulder rest? They claim that way their violin resonates freer with bigger sound. In theory that may be true, but I feel comfort is priority. Agree?
If I follow my ideal philosophy of simplicity and simplify by ditching the shoulder, then I'll be fussing with experimenting with the right chinrest or some pad......Which actually defeats the purpose of simplicity.
S shaped shoulder rest cause neck pain to some people. For me free from shoulder rest was best liberation. Heifetz told all of his students not to use s.rest, women too. Do not try to hold violin only with your neck if not using the s rest. Without the rest left hand touch with violin neck is essential.
I have a scoliosis, rigid neck (not yogi at all...), thumb arthrisis beginning, several muscular pains, no natural pad at all. So the soulder rest is very useful to let the right hand (thumb pain...) free. Play with a soulder rest is like hiking (I live in french Alpes) : you should be able to talk, that means that the neck keep free.
Great video, information, and playing! (by a pretty lady no less...) I am a beginner, and I had the shoulder rest on backwards... Sad... But now I am happy! I drive a standard, and maybe in a month or so, I will try playing W/O the "help"... IMHO
Джулия I love you ❤️
Really good video thank you!
I would fly to N Texas especially to consult you re: positioning and setup of my violin! Upper right arm pain is beginning to set in. Thank you for such a great video - from a struggling adult learner... BSA
I've tried playing with and without. I've found it to be easier to hit notes correctly without a rest (and I'm a relative beginner at THIS instrument, but proficient in piano, guitar, theory and composition, etc). However, the slippage is real. So I have a found a very good compromise.... My shoulder rest (a Kun) is as low as possible. Secondly, and this is very important, I have the "shoulder side" of the rest as far towards the middle of the violin as possible (right before the bottom left of the ribbing flares out), and the other side of the rest is pretty much at the bottom-right of the violin's body. So this allows the base of the violin to rest on my clavicle, as it should, and yet the shoulder rest acts as a "stop" to keep the violin from slipping off. I will also mention that I'm about 5'11" and lanky, and I usually practice while wearing a fleece robe (or a hoodie, depending on daytime clothing or pajamas hahaha), so this is what I've found to work best for me.
I am glad that you found the way to play in the most comfortable way.
My personal experience of playing restless is that finding the right chin-rest is critical. It needs to be high enough that you need a minimum drop of the jaw to get a snug fit, so the neck retains a natural and safe angle. To my eye, many people seem to be using chin-rests that are far too low for them. And I find it helpful if the chin-rest has a bit of a lip, so it stays secure on the down-shift with minimum pressure.
With this set-up, I find I can shift without having to raise the shoulder or move the thumb in advance. Perhaps I'm lucky with the shape of my collar-bone, but it all feels very secure and relaxed. I only need to lift the shoulder for page-turning or tuning, and even then it's minimal.
But it did take a year or two of experimentation to find this setup - at the outset it's more challenging than using a shoulder-rest, so you have to be motivated to work though the difficulties. Personally, I hated the feel of the shoulder-rest, so I was happy to make the effort. I would never go back now.
Thanks for your thoughtful comment. Yes, it takes a year or two to switch for those who are lucky on both counts - the patience and the right upper body.
Olá, Júlia!... Muito bom este vídeo, e bastante esclarecedor! De uma forma bastante equilibrada, e imparcial, você demonstrou que na verdade, entre usar ou não o acessório, cada violinista deve buscar a melhor forma de tocar, que se adapte ao seu biotipo sem ser pesado... Gostei muito!
Dear Professor Bushova - I am truly a fan of your incisive informative videos. I'm a beginner who cannot get comfortable with a shoulder rest - I've tried for over a year (3 different brands) I want to play without one. You showed shifting with no shoulder rest. I want to learn vibrato and have seen others who say vibrating is more difficult (or different) with no shoulder rest. I was hoping you'd demonstrate that. Do you squeeze the instrument between your chin and shoulder to hold it steady?
Vibrato is in some ways different without the shoulder rest - like everything else is, actually. Whether it is more difficult or not, depends on the person. Vibrato in the upper positions is not much different as you can see in my wrist vibrato video. In lower positions, it would be.
Great video.
Excelente video muchas gracias. Ojalá alguien pueda traducir al español. Hay muy poca información en nuestro idioma tan perfectamente bien explicado como lo has hecho. Mil gracias felicidades por tu buen trabajo
I am a long time player, and have always used a shoulder rest. However just now I am finding that I have some severe shoulder pain. In looking at a lot of videos like this - I have seen that using the shoulder rest does NOT necessarily stop the clenching of the shoulder. Indeed in working through my difficulties, I have realized that the shoulder pad ENCOURAGES the squeezing of the shoulder in order to use the rest for its purpose of holding the violin with it - going back to our early childhood when one of the first lessons was learning how to hold the violin WITHOUT using the arm. While the rest allows us to not APPEAR to lift the shoulder, It seems to me that by NOT having a shoulder rest we are encouraged to eschew the use of the shoulder to actually hold the violin at all - making it much easier to relax the shoulder. At any rate I plan on trying that method after over 60 years of playing. I'll let you know how it goes!
I find it the most useful to try 'the other' method, correctly. If done correctly, switching to the opposite method may be beneficial. I am glad that I learned to play without the rest and performed like that for a year. Even though I did return back to the rest eventually, it was with a different understanding.
Hello Professor, thank you so much for the video as it was very informative. I have been playing the violin for a long time now and am messing around with and without shoulder rest. I just wondered if you had any advice on how best to vibrate when not using a shoulder rest. I feel that I must be doing something wrong since, in order not to drop my instrument, my first finger has to contact the neck of the instrument (in low positions) but this makes it very difficult to vibrate since there is now that friction between the first finger and the instrument.
Thanks so much from England!!
in vibrato, we do not touch the neck with the finger. The thumb goes sort of underneath the neck a bit, so you get two points of support then.
Thank yo very much. After endless search, finally someone saw all my problems and answered them, the pain from rising shoulder, i like the sound and vibration without SR, but my neck is long, I was wondering whether it is because they have short neck, my favourite violinists don't use SR i always feel very uncomfortable without it, i have tried many times to remove it, i will accept my situation, use a SR
To be honest, the people I know that are used to playing without a shoulder rest do not raise their shoulder region (it's still part of the collar bone, anatomically speaking, which is actually part of your arm) because through the proper balance of the thumb and the proper movement of the arm leading the shoulder blade in movement in shifting up or down, there is no need to raise the "shoulder". Strength in the left hand is not needed to hold up the violin- you use muscles in the side and back of your body to support the arm and because you have additional support in the head gently resting the jaw ( sometimes the chin as well) on the chin rest that should be of sufficient height to not require your head to drop down very much) and the violin resting into the side of your neck, and the bow stabilizing the instrument as it rests on the strings, you do not need to "hold" your arm in space and do not require lots of built up muscle. Everything is in a dynamic balance moving around without requiring strength building exercises to hold up dead weight. Also, the violin weighs only a pound and 1/4-1/3 of that rests in the hand, the rest on the collar bone. I would examine the following video for further elucidation:
vimeo.com/163487675
The main point of my video is to provide clarity on the issue and calm down the fruitless debate of what is better, 'with' or 'without.' I am happy you have met those people who do not raise their shoulder region while playing 'without'. In my long life in music, I met only one - Sir Yehudi Menuhin. The rest of those I closely observed, all raise the shoulder here or there (or a lot) - although many profess not doing so. The video you are referring to is done by my younger colleague Jonathan Schwarz. There is nothing new in it - but it is a nice pep talk for those who contemplate playing shoulder-rest-less.
Reporting my own restless bias here but...
You sound so much better without a shoulder rest :)
Your tone has more "core" and the bow seems to "stick" a whole lot better.
The biggest hurdle for students and teachers is basiclly relarning the entire left hand technique.
When a student proposes restlessness to a rested teacher who's never fathomed even trying playing without one...
It's easy to understand why a vast majority recommend playing with a shoulder rest, because...
Because they don't know any other way, simple as that.
My own gripe with these contraptions is the loss of shoulder mobility in higher positions, especially on the G string.
The shoulder naturally wants to come close to the violin, but the rest puts a hard stop to it.
PS: Even you won't commit to it, you should nonetheless learn how to play restless.
It helps reframe the hand into a better position.
PPS: Watch Hilary Hahn shift and see her thumb working as there's no rest.
"You sound so much better without a shoulder rest" is what I usually hear from the 'restless' players :)
I teach quite a few rest-less students and also those who switch back-and-forth. The whole point of the video is quell the unnecessary dichotomy of the "rest or no rest".
Excellent!
Without a shoulder rest, a larger area of the back of the violin is in contact with the shoulder. Doesn't that take away sound more than the spots where the shoulder rest touches the violin?
Adrian Demian absolutely right
There are techniques you can play without having the back contacting the shoulder. It's that we have to support the violin with our left hand yet be relax. So by that mean, only the area around the end block of the violin contacts the collar bone. The left shoulder is just free in the air.
nope
No because you're less clamped down on it. The violin is made to project sound into the air. Only if you clam will it dampen the vibration. Something I do is to use a shoulder rest but only clamp when necessary to let my violin speak more. It sounds the best without a shoulder rest, but eh. It's hard to play like that.
In fact you get a nice sense of the sound through your body from this contact, which is a big advantage in some types of music eg. Bach.
go julichka...hi from julie in italy............
I have left arm soreness shoulder and elbow so I decided to experiment without the shoulder rest. This is just my first day but I've been so terrified of not using my shoulder rest. What I discovered is that I can play without the shoulder rest and my violin sounds better. But even thinking about it right now terrifies me lol
Bravo!
Please make a video about how a chin rest should fit.
I am a fan now
aku dulu tak pakai shouldrest, tapi ternyata aku lebih nyaman memakai shouldrest. Matur Suksma
I'm returning to playing and have decided that I'm still not comfortable with a shoulder rest so why not try without. I don't know if anyone agrees but in your two demonstrations, I prefer the sound without the rest.
During a master class in China, Itzhak Perlman was asked why he didn't use a shoulder rest. He answered by sending his right hand under his jacket, up to his left shoulder, and producing a sponge rubber. This I had seen in a YT video many years ago, which I can no longer locate on YT.
So, yes, Perlman used a shoulder pad.
Yes, that is correct :)
Thankyou beautiful violin goddess.