We all have those favorite videos that pop up on our subscriptions... 4 squares reviews are hands down my favorite to see in my inbox from the hundreds of channels I subscribe to. Hope this series goes on as long as the dice tower does! Great work!
I'm in the boat of I dislike the randomness of the Summer and Winter cards in Viticulture Essential Edition, but I would be willing to try this version. I do like Co-ops and this one not being the same bad stuff happens every round that Wendy mentioned, makes me more excited to try it.
I would highly recommend the Visitors from the Rhine Valley card expansion. It changes the visitor cards to be more wine focused, and they also feel less swingy.
I've just bought it purely to improve the solo experience, so it was nice to hear Mike's final comment on how much better he thinks this is. Hope he's right 🙂
Very nice review! Two quick things in case someone happens to watch the review and see this reply :P 1) It doesn't fit in the base box. The board is too big unfortunately so you'll need to keep it separate (or pick it up with the big box releasing alongside the expansion) 2) To Chris & Tom's point about the intro scenario needing to be easier: they are releasing the game with a free promo pack to do just that!
Nice to see the co-op expansion being rated that high, I was excited about it when I saw it being advertised, so now I am even more excited to try it out; great job as always every one in the Dice Tower team, this was a great 4 squares review.
Nice review! Chris always gets some entertaining references in and Wendy articulates her opinions very well (it probably doesn't hurt that we seem to have similar tastes in games). I was on the fence about this expansion because I like Viticulture well enough but find it very random... but I am quite keen on thinky co-ops, and I like the idea of the different regions providing distinct playing experiences.
After watching this video, I've come to the conclusion that I've been dodging this franchise long enough. As a fan and owner of Scythe and Wingspan, I feel that it's time that I take the plunge and get on board the Viticulture bandwagon.
I prefer to play without Tuscany because I like my game to be simple, I still can't decide if I like to play this game in a co-op way, I think maybe when you have more players. We usually just play 2-4 players, thanks guys.
At first I was kind of negative on this idea, but it could solve a big issue for me.. I’ve taught Viticulture to lots of people, so when I play with them I'm much better (it has enough skill involved that 30 plays to 2 really matters). They love the game, but I have to play pretty badly on purpose to avoid destroying them. Also, I have plenty of friends who prefer Co-op to competitive. So yeah, it would be a cool to introduce this game to someone and let them learn it without being competition.
I'm honestly surprised you don't upgrade your workers and ADD the hats, making them specialize in a specific season. Instead of getting the bonuses when they're upgraded, instead allow them to get just the bonuses of the season they're good in. Would give the game an additional layer of "where and when do I use my workers or save them for latter?".
I like that they start with the hats! It indicates their limitation and where they can be used since you start with all 4 and it allows everyone to use the neat new component every game no matter what. Upgrading the worker does give you that layer of “where and when do I use my workers or save them for later.”
So if I toss the insert in the original essentials game, could I fit everything viticulture? Chris was about to give the answer and I was hanging off the edge of me seat… but he got cut off by Tom! 🥺
I've never been a big fan of co-op games. Spirit Island is the only co-op game I enjoy and would play anytime. If I'm not a fan of co-op games would this expansion change my mind?
I played this for the first time today and absolutely loved it except for the one card in the beginning scenario that gives you points. It was really tense. We were trying really hard to get everybody in a position to win on the last time, and then, the game just straight up gives you points. It felt patronizing. I’m not a fan, but it’s a great game. I don’t ever have to play the beginning scenario again, and I won’t.
@@felicitycarter79 The Wine Crate doesn't *include* Viticulture or Tuscany (or the other small expansions), but they will be available to purchase from Stonemaier at the same time as Viticulture World is released.
Here's hoping, I love co-ops and I love Viticulture. I've no idea whether I'll love this or not. No review copy sadly so I'll have to play the waiting game and review it later. The idea of this being a longer length game though is a concern. Viticulture isn't exactly a "short" game.
As a cooperative game, how would Viticulture compare with other designs? I love co-op games, but I did not like Viticulture (with expansions) enough to keep it. Now I'm considering repurchasing everything to play the co-op version. But that's a big chunk of change when it's not a sure thing I'm going to like it.
I don't understand what you mean with how it would compare, beyond their extensive explanation of the game and their scores and their critiques and their accolades, etc already in the video.
@@Sam-vk8xd I agree with your premise but there’s a difference between not liking the game and not liking the game enough to keep it. Many people keep tight collections.
I don't like the assertion that "cards" and "randomness" are flaws. I can appreciate you disliking them as we all have different tastes, but they aren't flaws. They're deliberately structured design choices which many people enjoy.
Not inherent "flaws", per se, just preferences. I have the same problem with enjoying the game. Once I had a game or two where someone drew all white grapes and red contracts (or vice versa) it's killed any enthusiasm I have about the game. BUT that's not a design flaw, it's just a design choice I didn't enjoy. And that's not to mention the visitor cards. I don't hate the game. I'll play it if someone asks for it. I just wouldn't choose it.
@@johnathanrhoades7751 That's my point. I'm not even saying I personally enjoy that element, but if people didn't like the randomization of things like cards and dice, half the industry wouldn't be built around it! On the flip side, some people love the structured lack of randomized elements from games like Terra Mystica, Caylus, Puerto Rico.. but then there are those who don't like it and would call the "solvability" of a fixed game like that or the lack of variability to be a flaw and I'd say the same to them as I did here. It's a specific design decision and it's something some people absolutely love and there's room for both types of games. For me, a design flaw is something that is unintended and probably wasn't discovered as being an issue until the game hit the public and tens of thousands of people put many hours into it. One thing I can think of off the top of my head was the poor success rate of the mining win conditions in the Stardew Valley board game. After enough play and math, there are ways the game can be literally unwinnable if you get the wrong set of objectives and mine map tiles, and that should never have been the case. But the creators did a lot of post launch play testing and made some changes that fixed the issues.
@@DeltathRiylaan yeah. That's definitely how I would think about it. I love randomness is some games (Nemesis, Dice Throne) and I love perfect information games. For some reason I just don't love viticulture. But I would never call its design "flawed" in any way that I have found.
I love Viticulture, but in terms of co-ops I’ve already got what I need (Arkham, Sentinels, Gloomhaven, Kingdom Death, Aeon’s End, and Mechs vs Minions). There’s just no reason to buy an expansion that adds a mode we won’t play.
Looks goods but I think I’d rather play viticulture and have my wife throw her wine in my face after winning. I’m buying Table Golf Association instead.
Out of all the dice tower people I think I disagree with Wendy the most, but I appreciate her perspective and thoughts on games, because it brings a different perspective than I prefer and there is value to that to better appreciating games and understanding the diverse perspectives of all gamers. For me I like some randomness in games. If you can just completely math out a game it doesn't usually legs for the long haul for me. I don't want a ton of randomness ,but Viticulture (It is my favorite game) has the perfect amount of randomness for my tastes.
@@RadeTcg interesting! I think that's why she's a great fit to the team, balances out the viewpoints. I often feel most of the other reviewers are too multi dimensional in what they like, it can be hard to remember who likes what when they all like so many different things ,😊
When I learned of this coming out, this was an instant pass for me and my wife. She's not a big co-op fan, I'm more of one, but no, and the more I watch reviews/plays it reinforces that decision. This game just sparks no desire in me to play it. Viticulture w/ Tuscany Essential edition is a 10 for me and one of my top 10 games.
Not sure why they wouldn’t since it’s great branding. By referencing your other products, consumers are more likely to try out the company’s other games.
We all have those favorite videos that pop up on our subscriptions... 4 squares reviews are hands down my favorite to see in my inbox from the hundreds of channels I subscribe to. Hope this series goes on as long as the dice tower does! Great work!
Hat's off to Chris for making that awesome point.
Tihi ...
Always like when Mike is on screen.
I love viticulture, I love co Ops, and I love any game mike loves…so this is an easy one for me. Nice video guys!
I love Viticulture.
I'm in the boat of I dislike the randomness of the Summer and Winter cards in Viticulture Essential Edition, but I would be willing to try this version. I do like Co-ops and this one not being the same bad stuff happens every round that Wendy mentioned, makes me more excited to try it.
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I would highly recommend the Visitors from the Rhine Valley card expansion. It changes the visitor cards to be more wine focused, and they also feel less swingy.
I've just bought it purely to improve the solo experience, so it was nice to hear Mike's final comment on how much better he thinks this is.
Hope he's right 🙂
This seems pretty interesting. Makes me want to try Viticulture
Very nice review! Two quick things in case someone happens to watch the review and see this reply :P
1) It doesn't fit in the base box. The board is too big unfortunately so you'll need to keep it separate (or pick it up with the big box releasing alongside the expansion)
2) To Chris & Tom's point about the intro scenario needing to be easier: they are releasing the game with a free promo pack to do just that!
Nice to see the co-op expansion being rated that high, I was excited about it when I saw it being advertised, so now I am even more excited to try it out; great job as always every one in the Dice Tower team, this was a great 4 squares review.
I agree this episode seemed to flow perfectly.
Nice review! Chris always gets some entertaining references in and Wendy articulates her opinions very well (it probably doesn't hurt that we seem to have similar tastes in games). I was on the fence about this expansion because I like Viticulture well enough but find it very random... but I am quite keen on thinky co-ops, and I like the idea of the different regions providing distinct playing experiences.
The upgrades feel like the ones in Scythe because Mihar is a Scythe beast!
After watching this video, I've come to the conclusion that I've been dodging this franchise long enough. As a fan and owner of Scythe and Wingspan, I feel that it's time that I take the plunge and get on board the Viticulture bandwagon.
Chris’ point might’ve been the best in the whole discussion
Which point?
Once again I agree with Wendy, thinky co-ops are rather lacking in games but I really am excited that this is one. Can’t wait to play it, 👍🏻
I prefer to play without Tuscany because I like my game to be simple, I still can't decide if I like to play this game in a co-op way, I think maybe when you have more players. We usually just play 2-4 players, thanks guys.
You would think that Tom is a one person in Dice Tower who knows how to put a hat on...
Are you talking about summer worker Tom or winter worker Tom?
At first I was kind of negative on this idea, but it could solve a big issue for me.. I’ve taught Viticulture to lots of people, so when I play with them I'm much better (it has enough skill involved that 30 plays to 2 really matters). They love the game, but I have to play pretty badly on purpose to avoid destroying them. Also, I have plenty of friends who prefer Co-op to competitive.
So yeah, it would be a cool to introduce this game to someone and let them learn it without being competition.
Tuscany is a must.
i didnt thought this would be good. Really love viticulture so I am happy that this is good to!
I'm honestly surprised you don't upgrade your workers and ADD the hats, making them specialize in a specific season. Instead of getting the bonuses when they're upgraded, instead allow them to get just the bonuses of the season they're good in. Would give the game an additional layer of "where and when do I use my workers or save them for latter?".
I like that they start with the hats! It indicates their limitation and where they can be used since you start with all 4 and it allows everyone to use the neat new component every game no matter what. Upgrading the worker does give you that layer of “where and when do I use my workers or save them for later.”
Thanks for the queen reference, time to listen to an album
So if I toss the insert in the original essentials game, could I fit everything viticulture? Chris was about to give the answer and I was hanging off the edge of me seat… but he got cut off by Tom! 🥺
You cannot. Board is too big.
I've never been a big fan of co-op games. Spirit Island is the only co-op game I enjoy and would play anytime. If I'm not a fan of co-op games would this expansion change my mind?
If you like Spirit Island then there are high chances you will love this too :)
I played this for the first time today and absolutely loved it except for the one card in the beginning scenario that gives you points. It was really tense. We were trying really hard to get everybody in a position to win on the last time, and then, the game just straight up gives you points. It felt patronizing. I’m not a fan, but it’s a great game. I don’t ever have to play the beginning scenario again, and I won’t.
we play with the hat workers flipped upside down .. its more obvious where your workers are.
Sounds like you could just use your hat as the marker until you train meeple
I wish they had an option to buy this packaged with the base game.
They do - you can buy the expansion from Stonemaier games in a “wine crate” box that holds base, Tuscany and World.
@@felicitycarter79 The Wine Crate doesn't *include* Viticulture or Tuscany (or the other small expansions), but they will be available to purchase from Stonemaier at the same time as Viticulture World is released.
Hype!!
Here's hoping, I love co-ops and I love Viticulture. I've no idea whether I'll love this or not. No review copy sadly so I'll have to play the waiting game and review it later. The idea of this being a longer length game though is a concern. Viticulture isn't exactly a "short" game.
Hmmmm interesting I wasn’t planning on getting this but I might have to now
As a cooperative game, how would Viticulture compare with other designs? I love co-op games, but I did not like Viticulture (with expansions) enough to keep it. Now I'm considering repurchasing everything to play the co-op version. But that's a big chunk of change when it's not a sure thing I'm going to like it.
I don't understand what you mean with how it would compare, beyond their extensive explanation of the game and their scores and their critiques and their accolades, etc already in the video.
If you don’t like viticulture this expansion will not make you like it. Don’t buy it.
@@Sam-vk8xd I agree with your premise but there’s a difference between not liking the game and not liking the game enough to keep it. Many people keep tight collections.
@@peterblack_ ? Irrelevant to anything that was said.
What I meant with my original question is if there are other co-op games out there that play like Viticulture World.
I don't like the assertion that "cards" and "randomness" are flaws. I can appreciate you disliking them as we all have different tastes, but they aren't flaws. They're deliberately structured design choices which many people enjoy.
Not inherent "flaws", per se, just preferences. I have the same problem with enjoying the game. Once I had a game or two where someone drew all white grapes and red contracts (or vice versa) it's killed any enthusiasm I have about the game. BUT that's not a design flaw, it's just a design choice I didn't enjoy. And that's not to mention the visitor cards.
I don't hate the game. I'll play it if someone asks for it. I just wouldn't choose it.
@@johnathanrhoades7751 That's my point. I'm not even saying I personally enjoy that element, but if people didn't like the randomization of things like cards and dice, half the industry wouldn't be built around it! On the flip side, some people love the structured lack of randomized elements from games like Terra Mystica, Caylus, Puerto Rico.. but then there are those who don't like it and would call the "solvability" of a fixed game like that or the lack of variability to be a flaw and I'd say the same to them as I did here. It's a specific design decision and it's something some people absolutely love and there's room for both types of games.
For me, a design flaw is something that is unintended and probably wasn't discovered as being an issue until the game hit the public and tens of thousands of people put many hours into it. One thing I can think of off the top of my head was the poor success rate of the mining win conditions in the Stardew Valley board game. After enough play and math, there are ways the game can be literally unwinnable if you get the wrong set of objectives and mine map tiles, and that should never have been the case. But the creators did a lot of post launch play testing and made some changes that fixed the issues.
@@DeltathRiylaan yeah. That's definitely how I would think about it. I love randomness is some games (Nemesis, Dice Throne) and I love perfect information games. For some reason I just don't love viticulture. But I would never call its design "flawed" in any way that I have found.
Wendy, what other thinky co-op games do you like?
She put Spirit Island in the middle of her top 100 today so that's probably one of them
Thumbs up for the Queen reference. 👍
Does this work with the other expansion decks.or just base cards
9:29
I love Viticulture, but in terms of co-ops I’ve already got what I need (Arkham, Sentinels, Gloomhaven, Kingdom Death, Aeon’s End, and Mechs vs Minions). There’s just no reason to buy an expansion that adds a mode we won’t play.
Agree, iam with you.
Yes, it is reasonable to not buy a game you don’t plan to ever play.
Looks goods but I think I’d rather play viticulture and have my wife throw her wine in my face after winning. I’m buying Table Golf Association instead.
Out of all the dice tower people I think I disagree with Wendy the most, but I appreciate her perspective and thoughts on games, because it brings a different perspective than I prefer and there is value to that to better appreciating games and understanding the diverse perspectives of all gamers. For me I like some randomness in games. If you can just completely math out a game it doesn't usually legs for the long haul for me. I don't want a ton of randomness ,but Viticulture (It is my favorite game) has the perfect amount of randomness for my tastes.
I feel like Wendy seems a bit too one dimensional in the games she likes.
@@RadeTcg interesting! I think that's why she's a great fit to the team, balances out the viewpoints. I often feel most of the other reviewers are too multi dimensional in what they like, it can be hard to remember who likes what when they all like so many different things ,😊
When I learned of this coming out, this was an instant pass for me and my wife. She's not a big co-op fan, I'm more of one, but no, and the more I watch reviews/plays it reinforces that decision. This game just sparks no desire in me to play it. Viticulture w/ Tuscany Essential edition is a 10 for me and one of my top 10 games.
Extreme distaste for variance in games is an excuse for being bad at adaptive strategy.
BOOM! 😅
I hereby challenge Stonemeier games to design a product that doesn't reference any of their other products.
Not sure why they wouldn’t since it’s great branding. By referencing your other products, consumers are more likely to try out the company’s other games.
Yeah who cares
Why on earth wouldn't they promote their own brand in their own products?
Everyone replying seriously is very, very silly.
I didn't like the idea of a Viticulture Co-op.
Not going to put viticulture on the table to play co-op. Not for me.