You do NOT need to glue the cube tower ship if you build it correctly. That said, the ship was a major PITA to build. The tolerances were way too tight, and it's way too easy to damage. They should release an STL of the ship so you can 3D print your own.
No glue necessary for me either. Never even crossed my mind actually because everything fits so tightly. The holes were too small and made a few parts tough to put together for sure.
Trying to carefully sqeeze the cardboard pieces together to build the ship also results in squeaking noises that thematically sound like creaking wood.
Great review! I love it, but you're right to say this may not be for everyone because of it's fiddliness, it's length, and setup/clean up. It's a fair and solid review.
My group has been LOVING Dead Reckoning! We have one more game to go for our first campaign playthrough. I'm kicking myself for not getting the second expansion. I'm excited to see what the third expansion will bring, as well.
Me too! This is battling for my favorite game of all time and I haven’t even touched saga 1 or 2 yet. Looking forward to saga 3 Kickstarter this summer.
Yep, played it with four and three of us gave it a ‘9’ or higher. There is so much to like about this game that any “messy” parts are negligible when everything else is so good.
I am not sure a lot of this tracks. John D Clair is NOT my favorite designer, but this game is a masterpiece. Its not meant to be something non-sandbox (which appears to be the desire). It has about as many mechanisms as say Western Legends, but in a more cohesive way (thanks to the objective systems and end game trigger). The game giving players the ability to go Merchantile, Full on savage pirate or some hodgepodge of them is GREAT. No play of this, even at 3 with adding the AI has ever went more than 1 and a half hour (something was said about upgrading crew on others turns... which is in the rules anyway isn't it?). Also the Saga expansions DON'T need to be played as campaigns. We simply add and alter decks with each play using Saga 1 and 2. So far it isn't any additional overhead really, and the added materials are great. The Sagas add sooo much to the sense of discovery as well.
Completely agree with everything you said. Dead Reckoning is easily the best pirate themed board game I've ever played. When you add sagas into the mix it basically becomes Pirates of The Caribbean in a box. I've only played it 3 times so far, but it's very close to knocking Twilight Imperium 4 from my top 1. Mechanically this game might have some flaws, but it perfectly captures everything you might want from a pirate board game. Top notch game design, card crafting itself is just genius imo. The only part I agree about with Tom is the component problems. After multiple playthroughs some parts of this game like the ship, chests and sleeves might be damaged. Also, too few cubes, we end up using cubes from islands in the end game which is eeeeeeeh, feels weird.
@@crossrhodes14 Agreed. We have played well over 20 times now. I treated my ship with Midgepodge from a craft store and after that many plays, our ship is in perfect condition till. The Chests saw that same treatment recently. The sleeves, they are great quality and have replacements in case something happens. We played Mystic Vale from AEG well over 100 plays and never had more than a single sleeve remotely tear so I worry little about these. The cubes are meant to be a limited resource, and while I don't love the feeling, the thematic integration of spreading your people too thin, and thus recalling people to the ship from islands does make sense.
Around the 9:40 ish time you state you place a cube to mark the achievement. I believe you place your Achievement markers to show you have completed the achievement. There are 3 achievements where you mark your progress with cubes but once the player has fulfilled that achievement they get their cubes back. The 3 spots are Exploration (# of cubes is dependent on player count), Expert Sailor (x4, so max of 3 cubes) and Legendary (i.e. ship combat (x4, max of 3 cubes)). This is stated in the rule book pages 21-22. I believe the game is resource limited including cubes so you have to manage them as well.
I played my first game with the first saga/expansion components mixed in. I was really happy that you don't need to play the campaign and that you can just let new events unfold as you continue to play. The new stuff definitely made exploring way more interesting. It does add some legacy-like reveals, so if you are overwhelmed with everything going on already, the expansion is going to add to that. I really need to print up some player aides for battles. Those are the rules I have to keep explaining to players and there are 3 different types of battles that can occur.
Tom is wrong! This game should be seal of excellence, and maybe other Dice Tower members will help it get there eventually. I will just highlight the items I disagree with what Tom stated, and actually surprised he didn't give this an excellence rating given all of the positives he mentioned, which are spot on. Components 1. Not going to deal with putting 3 cardboard pieces together on the ship board that takes less than a minute to do? Is it extra set up steps, yes, but it is not difficult or a big deal unless you are putting it away and playing it every day. Especially for a 2 hour game (a 30 minute game, yes I can see how this could get a little annoying). 2. A lot of symbology that players will take awhile to learn all of it. I thought the learning of the symbology was actually very straightforward and easy to learn. Probably one of the easiest things to learn in the game, and will probably only take 1-2 plays to have those down solid. 3. Yes pirate ship goes inside a big box, but it all fits inside the game box nicely...excellent, I don't want to put it together every game and I want it to last! All of the component trays (which are labeled by component) used during game are also the storage trays when put back into box. Excellent production choice there which also helps reduce set up and tear down tremendously. 4. The individual player aids that show the leveling up of each sailor is very well done. Really surprised this didn't get a plus rating because these are very useful for beginners. 5. The clear, individual advancements are very well made and easy to insert in sleeves, which makes the card crafting mechanic so much fun. Final Thoughts "I like it a lot, but it has a lot of problems." What?! A LOT of problems?! This is an exaggeration and shouldn't bring the game down. 1. "Set up and tear down are immense." I think for the amount of pieces and length of game play, set up and tear down are actually very streamlined. AEG did an awesome job putting this together, and although I haven't timed myself, I definitely can't agree with it being "immense". It is no Azul set up and tear down, but that shouldn't be expected for a 2 hour 4X style game. Since there is no main board, and instead 12 ocean tiles make up the board which allows variable play and strategy each time, not to mention room for expansion ocean tiles is a huge PLUS. Think of Istanbul individual tiles that set up the main board. I would take this variability over a single game board any day. As for sorting and putting away the clear advancements going into the sleeves (probably 8-12 per player per game), think of it as putting Space Base away and reorganizing all the cards back into level 1, level 2, level 3, or putting away all your Dominion deck cards back into their specific deck piles. Could you tear a sleeve? I suppose if you are careless, but I have played over 15 games myself and haven't even come close (although I also like to take care of my game components, so maybe I am an anomaly). 2. "There is too much." There is a lot but there is not "too much" because all the mechanics are intertwined smoothly and flow together well, which make it a very strategic and tactical game. End game conditions are solid and guide you to certain strategies/actions throughout the game (which they could also be customized into an expansion to create even more variability); leveling up and upgrading your pirates is one of the most enjoyable things in this game; how to upgrade your ship is interesting since I want all the upgrade abilities; area control is a very important part of the game and how it is designed with managing your cube resources since you only have 30 cubes; exploring new tiles is not difficult and actually not that rewarding unless more unique ocean tiles are introduced as expansions, but as you play the game more deciding what tiles to explore can be very strategic; the 3 different types of buildings are close to being "too much" but once you learn how to build and utilize them they are another viable support strategy for this pirate sandbox experience. Tom is right in that we will want a 4 Square Review at some point to get more opinions. The key to making the game play enjoyable for all players at the table is having one person know all the possible rules inside and out (this is probably true for all games, but especially true for a unique game like this). What wasn't mentioned in the review, or atleast it didn't come across this way, is there are some very specific situational rules to remember since it is a sandbox style game (3 different types of battles and how those interactions all work, pirate mode for defense purposes, when you can or can't take something on the island when you win/lose a battle, when your ship is full of cargo/coins and you gain more from battle rewards where does that plunder go, losing control of an island even though you have the most recent permanent cube, etc... ). I think there will be some meh's/it's ok, some it is a really fun/great game, but there will be way more this game is one of my top 10 games of all time and definitely best pirate game out there.
I agree with most of your points and can see the case you make for the others. I disagree with one though: I don't think the assembled ship fits in the box nicely... or at least not in the version I got. From what I've seen in Tom's video, neither did his. I cut off the bent front part. I would also just add under "Components" that one can easily identify the open ocean tiles from their backs, which is really unfortunate. Still, I REALLY like this game.
@@antonieschwartz I had to take the cardboard insert out of the pirate ship box in order for it to fit. That cardboard insert was only to help stabilize it during shipping. You are right on the ocean tile backs and I should have mentioned that as a flaw. Maybe they will offer new, corrected open sea tiles to backers in next correct Kickstarter.
I think the scoring is meant to be part of the teardown. You score 1 point for every 2 upgrades, so when you do you last turn, unless somebody attacks you, you can start pulling out upgrades from the cards. We've been doing this and set up + teardown take 25 minutes at most. Compared to other 4x games like TI4 this is very fast imo.
Good review! Here are my thoughts on some points Tom brought up. For context, this is the not the sort of game I usually play but I've always wanted to have a 4x-type game I could bring out occasionally. I've played the game three times. 1. I was very hesitant to open my copy until I knew I could teach it to my game group. We mostly play light-medium to medium weight. I created a player aid (which I posted on BGG) which really helped me feel comfortable teach the game and not need to reference the rules. I strongly recommend it for those intimated by the rulebook. With the rules summary, I would put this in the medium to medium-heavy weight category. I think Paladins of the West Kingdom is the 'heaviest' weight game I own according to BGG. 2. Setup is actually pretty quick. I agree with Tom that teardown takes a little time with having to 'deconstruct' your decks, but no more than any other card-crafting game. 3. The ship is fine. It is a pain to build but it does not require glue. AEG (I think) posted a great video on BGG on how to put it together. The key is to take your time. And once you have it built, it's done. The box you store it in is fine and it's really no big deal to take the walls off the bottom piece after each game. I also don't understand the complaint that it takes up a lot of space in the box. Who cares? It's not like you can shrink the box. The box size has already been set. Everything fits in the box easily with room to spare. 4. The component that is most frustrating is the barrels. There simply aren't enough so you constantly have to trade to the 3-value barrels. The chest is fine. I don't even bother closing mine. I just let the lid sit on the box. It still hides the coins fine. 5. I actually think battles are fairly low-stakes. You actually don't lose anything unless your ship is sunk (which takes 5 damage). And even then, all you really lose is a minimum of 5 gold up to any gold currently on your ship. Otherwise, you can actually gain gold/cargo in battles (which come from the supply and not your opponent) quite easily. I agree that I wish there were more fights but I think that is the people I play with. 6. The icons are very straightforward and no more complicated than other games of similar weight. 7. Our consistent play time has been 2 1/2 hours for 4 players, and that's with one AP player. 8. I don't get the "this game is too much" comment. It's no more than any other games of similar weight, including the current Ark Nova hotness. Buildings are simple. Exploration is simple. Upgrading your ship is simple. Upgrading your card is simple. The two most complicated parts of the game are island control and combat. 9. I agree with Tom. The best part of the game is upgrading your pirates!
Box fits everything, including both sagas The Sagas truly make this game a 10/10 for me. They add story, some legacy stuff and they make exploration into an actual thing.
@@crossrhodes14is it truly legacy? I.e. do you put stickers on somewhere or stuff like that? Or a legacy game in a way that you slowly add stuff like new cards to the game?
I really disagree about the buildings. They really add to the depth and strategic part of the game. Some islands give way more points and you want to defend those islands when you're not around to prevent others from putting influence cubes there. The way to that is via buildings. Also you can boost your production on your islands via buildings if production is your strategy to gain a lot of coins (and therefore points). I certainly wouldn't cut out the buildings, it would make the game worse. Also the setup is pretty fast. You can be up and running in 10 minutes after a few games, which isn't bad for an experience like this. The teach isn't that bad either. Just look at the how to play of jongetsgames, it's not that long compared to other games. And the rulebook is great in my opinion. It's not huge as said. To me it's the perfect mix of fun gameplay, depth and strategy. I didn't know what to expect but I was very pleasantly surprised. I think I like this game better than Scythe for example, which I played a lot too.
I think having buildings helps with strategy for sure and gives another type of card in deck, but I think there are additional rules that make the buildings confusing or hard to remember with the player interactions. I don’t think they should be taken out, but I wonder if they could have been streamlined a little better. It took me multiple games before I understood the buildings completely without referencing rule book. Set up is not bad and good for this length and type of experience. The teach isn’t difficult, just a lot to go over given the “sandbox” type experience.
This, I think the fact you don't HAVE to make buildings and can win does not suggestion that buildings have no value. I think this game simply requires numerous plays in order to see all that can be done and figure out the best way to generate points.
This is an absolute 10/10 for me and I would not have cut a thing. It feels like Scythe or Tapestry in how much "stuff" you can do. Even the component quality, I would say, is absolutely perfect. The treasure chest goes into itself rather than outside? That seems like a serious nitpick. I have been searching for a "perfect pirate game" for years and I've literally hated most I've played, not just not loved. This is definitely the best pirate game of them all.
When the whole game seems so deliberate in design, the element of the cubes rolling into the pirate ship seems too random, and I would imagine that it could screw you over and take away from a well-built strategy that you have going on if you get bad rolls.
Prior to this merchants and marauders was my favorite pirate game. This is now my favorite. Being able to upgrade my crew, my ship and even control islands is really cool. The cube tower makes the game very exciting and not as punishing. When you die in merchants and marauders it is very hard to come back from, not so much in this one.
@@andrewww3389 Thanks for your response! I’ll have to check this one out. I’ve been hearing things about it for a while but hadn’t seen any playthrough’s or reviews yet. Pirates feels like an underutilized theme in games, I’m glad to see more of them!
@@andrewww3389 Still hesitating about this one. I hated merchants and merauders. Most hated game I ever played . The luck factor was gigantic. I was stuck with bad dice Rolls and kept on repeating my action over and over. IT was that of dying. And dying is...well yeah... And that took hours... So now dead is compared to M&M... Is the luck in dice a big thing here? I like to have control over my games.
@@4Tforyou sorry to hear that, I usually dont like a lot of randomness in my games also but M&M is an exception, I like the story it creates and if you go the path of the merchant it's much less random (less battles). Dead Reckoning doesnt share a lot of similarities besides the fact that it's a large pirate game where you are sailing around the board. There is no dice and the combat system is far more forgiving (even if you lose you still get loot and you dont lose progress in the game). Dead Reckoning is more mechanism driven as opposed to being story driven like M&M. Hope this helps.
I found that adding the Saga content added a real something extra to the exploration aspect. Oooooh, is that a Saga card? What light story aspect is going to be revealed? If I explore a new island, am I going to reveal a Saga advancement? I've just left it integrated and clarify for new people as necessary. It makes the game more fun imho.
Totally with you on a lot of points, both good and bad. I love card crafting and Edge of Darkness was the peak of that for me. It works well here along with the pirate upgrades. The theme works well even though I'm not a pirate fan and it's cool getting new cards. And there are a few interesting paths in the game, I actually have done well without levelling up the Bosun for ship upgrades. But exploring is pretty rubbish, none of the islands are interesting and totally this game could have been cut down. Buildings feel very tacked on as a mechanism and not worth actually building if you want to do well in the game and this is easily a 3 hour game with 4 players - 2 hours with 4 players, yeah that is a total exception, not the rule. And it was a humongous teach from my friend with the game and the setup/takedown took ages. The combat is also fun, but very swingy. It's a 13 point swing if your ship gets sunk by a player, nothing else in the game comes close to that level of points swing and in a 2-3 hour game swings aren't a good thing so I'm hit and miss on that cube combat. This was the card crafting game I decided to not back on KS because of owning MV and EoD already - and I don't have regrets despite enjoying the game overall. The stuff that works well in this game works very well which is everything to do with the cards and the production, but "streamlining" is a word that needed to be applied in the development stage as I think if this was a 2 hour max affair even at 4 with teach it would be amazing.
I absolutely am loving Dead Reckoning. Don't usually disagree with Tom, but I wouldn't want anything pared down/out from this. Practically a perfect pirate game imo. :)
It's funny, because I somewhat agree with you about it feeling like there's too much in this game, but at the same time, I wouldn't actually remove anything at all. I do think the cube tower feels woefully under utilised in most games, and commented on this in my own review. I must confess that I don't find the tear down to be quite as onerous as you make out either. I think it's a really good game, but I do agree that there is a LOT going on. Despite its appearances, it's actually a very in-depth and complicated game, though you can play it at a far quicker and more accessible level. The sagas also add a ton to the game when playing the game as a short campaign. The way it adds in narrative, but also incentive to explore and trade off immediate gains for potential long terms points makes for a really solid campaign experience - which is even better because you're doing stupid things like ripping up cards or stickering things like in legacy games. If you want, you can reset the game fully and explore the content from scratch.
I love it. The only 2 component issues I agree with is the pirate flag and not being able to store the battle mat with the sides glued in. They are a bit flimsy as is. My first game teaching it to 2 New players ran very long though. I think perhaps i underestimated the complexity a bit. Still loved it, but so far enjoyed it most at 2 players and solo due to that length issue. Would love to get it to a more efficuent point within my group, but that is true for other games as well.
You can fit the battle board with sides on. I superglued mine on. You can stack some of the sea tiles inside, they fit, and the rest spread around the box.
3 plays in, I would say that this is a great 4X Pirate game. My Quibbles include the fact that there isn't quite enough pieces but as to all of the mechanisms, no, that is basically perfect.
@@Joshua_Tymchyn I understand that the 30 cubes are there for the purposes of balance, the more of them you use for one thing the less you have for another (although the fact that they get used to track achievements seems ... wrong). But there isn't enough buildings if you get into a game where lots are being built, Barrels have to be consolidated or you run out, coins have to be taken out of the chest and counted out so that you can replace 1s with higher denominations, bc you are going to run out of the lower numbers. I just feel like they could have given us more of these components.
I think nowadays designers are losing focus and just making things far too sand box or open ended. I like dungeon crawls and exploring in games, but why add 4-7 major mechanisms to further bloat a game. Not only is it hard to keep track of everything, but it takes far too much space on the shelf and table, and not to mention the cost. I think board games are trying to hard to simulate video games, and it's just not going to happen. The book keeping alone becomes a nightmare, and this just look like to much to the point of being an RPG at this point.
I want a pirate week lol. Play sea of legends live please. And this one. And tiny epic pirates... and forgotten waters. I cant think of a 5th recent release pirate game... but there has to be one... i guess merchant cove???
I love Mystic Vale and respect the designer for his innovation. But this feels like a lighter version of Seafall without the legacy component. Am I off base?
@@crossrhodes14 very similar with what John D Claire did with Space base "Shy Pluto", there's some story elements that add some cards and limited game rules
Odd production decisions? Definitely. Best game I've played this year? It possibly could have been had I not played Obsession. Dead Reckonig is a great game! (And yes, clean up is a pain.)
What are the odd production decisions? The ship is solid and makes it thematic and useful during the game. I am not sure if Tom said in his review this is a Kickstarter only game, but Kickstarters allow games to have overproduced pieces. The box for the ship will keep the ship intact and not all bent up. The ship board with the removable borders is unfortunate that they don’t lock in, but again I wonder if those pieces would get bent up in the box. It literally takes less than 1 minute to put the borders on the board. This is NOT an issue and I think Tom is being too nit picky for how minimal this is during setup. If the piece fell apart when cubes dropped or it didn’t fit, then that is a valid issue, but I haven’t seen this issue in over 10 plus plays. The pirate flag doesn’t stay well on each player’s ship, and I think that affects game play because it is somewhat hard to see and can fall off ship. This seemed like an odd or poorly made production piece. I think some of the back of ocean boards (specifically the open sea tiles) are a discolored and can be distinguished from the other ocean boards with a good eye. This is a poor production issue though, not odd. Tom again didn’t mention how storage and take down works. You probably do 8-12 sleeve advancements per player per game. They need to put them back in their respective boxes, but this take down for a 2-3 hour game is fine by me. Probably similar to dominion or space base tear down, which can be much shorter games. There are even storage boxes to use as containers during game that are LABELED to make set up and tear down more convenient. Very nice production touches in my mind that not sure if they were mentioned. Will the individual player chests tear after multiple plays? Possibly. Could you keep the chest open and still have the chest secretive…yes. Would magnetic be better? I think so especially for Kickstarter, but it works and all individual player pieces fit nicely in it when putting game away and stacks nicely in box…no storage bags needed here. Again, another production nitpick that I don’t think should matter. I completely agree with you that this game is great!
@@KingMePlease3 perhaps "odd" for me here includes "poor" production decisions. I would actually have liked the box to be 1mm bigger as it led to the front of my ship getting bent. I cut a part off to make it fit better. I read other gamers' solutions to the issue of preventing bent/frayed cardboard, but I guess I'm not as clever/skilled or patient as they are. I agree, the pirate flags are odd. I actually don't mind assembling the conflict area every game that much, other that the eventual fraying it'll cause. I would've preferred it somehow be a single piece, but understand the cost, pratical and graphic appeal limitations/implications that presents. I wouldn't want a grey piece of plastic as a replacement, for instance. I didn't think of the difference in colouration on the tile backs initially (thanks for reminding me), making the open ocean tile easy to spot. But, to your point, i agree this would be better described as a "poor" rather than an "odd" production decision (or insufficient quality control).
@@antonieschwartz Wait the boat fits perfectly in the box. Did you not remove the cardboard that was added solely for transport? Seriously, the boat fits without issue.
I have and enjoy Edge of Darkness, as well as this and while setup and teardown are involved, I smirk at the idea that this someone counts as a negative. The game is fun, possibly lasts longer, although this is group determined, and worth the play as it is a very unique and compelling play system. I think the suggestion it need longer development is silly, same with Edge of Darkness, the games play as designed and provide unique experiences. They may not be for everyone, but we certainly had fun moving around the board and putting our pirate flags on.
If one had a choice, would you choose scythe or dead reckoning? I have both, but I'm looking to get rid of one, they seem so similar (even though there is so much more luck in DR) I'm moving so have to cut down on games, help me keep one!
I hated edge of darkness, but this is one of my favourite games right now! That pirate mode token though is the worst thing ever, it does not work! I HATE it!
Is this game available in retail or direct from the publisher? Or is this a review only for people who already own the game (i.e. kickstarter backers)? :)
The Saga content does not need the campaign. The Saga content is amazing!!! Works best organically. You can just add it to the game and start playing. No campaign necessary. Any persistent items stay with player color that unlocked it so players can hop in and out. All Saga content has the story info on the cards so you have all the information needed on where the cards came from for the players that were not present when the card came out. I will disagree. Not messy in my opinion. The game said up front it was a 4x game. Go into it knowing that and you will love it. Best pirate game I have ever played.
I really disagree on this one. It’s heads and shoulders the best pirate game I have ever played. I love how epic everything is. There are so many ways to play. It’s a 4x game really. Losing battles is often a benefit. This is likely a top 10 game all time for me.
Real pirates aren’t actually necessarily as bad as they’re remembered. Pirates were working class and poor people, free or escaped slaves, even women. They were fighting for their lives against huge navies of conscripted sailors who lived in terrible conditions. Pirates were often welcomed by crews who would hand over their captains and use the chance to either escape or he rid of a cruel captain. Obviously the defining issues of the time were slavery, colonialism, and large scale warfare. Pirates were either not part of any of those or worked against them. Officially sanctioned pirates like Francis Drake are remembered positively even though their actions were actually more cruel and violent than most pirates. Fear of pirates was propaganda from both empires who hated them and pirates who wanted their targets to just surrender and avoid costly battles. Out of everyone at sea in those days, pirates were probably the best people on the ocean.
@@malcolmdouglasmichaluk8263 A General History of the Pyrates is a great book, but I found it difficult to read. Do not read it online, you will lose your eyesight lol
My wife and I really love this game, we even got it to the table 5 times the first weekend it arrived! I can absolutely see what you mean about the fiddliness, there are a lot of rules that I wish were cleaner but understand why they are the way they are (setting sails with a full ship while docked seeming to trip people up more than most). As for set up and tear down, I actually found set up to be a breeze with the storage system it comes with, and the scoring at the end is designed so you can put the game away as you count points which makes the end of the game a lot smoother. Glad you're also enjoying your time as a pirate!
I got my pledge for this and STILL haven't gotten it played! Ugh! I need to make it happen! heh :-) Been hearing really positive things... and I'm curious how I will feel about everything. I often align with Tom, so we'll see if that holds true here too. UPDATE: Yeah, this time I don't align with Tom as much... I definitely enjoyed this one a lot more than Tom. Very fun game! :-D
Well, I have to say Tom, we have similar taste in games and I normally agree with you 70 to 90% of what you say, but in this case, you are 100% spot on, for me. I'm going to play my third game Thursay and although you can completely forget some aspect fo the games like ships upgrade or buildings, this is a fun game with multiple way to win. We will start the campaign soon and we expect to love it. But all in all, it is not a perfect game, I'm not even sure I'll say a great game... But by God, I have so much fun playing it! Thank you for your honest review.
I wish it would go to retail, and just sell it for high $. It would atleast be an option for those that can’t get it now, and puts the game in more peoples hands then.
Add the saga content but don't play the campaign mode-campaign mode has very little continuity and no storyline so it's totally not necessary. I totally love this game.
The sleeve+transparent cards seem more like a fancy novelty to me. It is nice, but the same result could be achieved with a bunch of regular cards and deckbuilding. Or is there something that I can't get?
I think the card crafting is really nice and provides a different experience to traditional deck building. You customize the cards to your liking, and have more control over what synergies are on each card. The biggest difference though is your deck will always be 12 cards. With traditional deck building you might buy a really good card but you'll only see it a few times during the game, if that. With this you don't have to worry about cards watering down your deck and it's more fun because you'll get to play the stuff you bought a lot more frequently.
Luke is right on. You have the opportunity to create and combine up to 3 cards of your liking into 1 powerful card, which allows you to draw that powerful card in your hand more frequently. The decision making on which advancement/transparent card to purchase (can it fit on the first, second or third section of your sailor card) and what sailor to put it on is also enjoyable.
I think sometimes people miss the fact that some board games, like this one, are going more to the field of what I call "board game videogame", which is something I really like, love to have so many things to do, they feel like video games or board games, that´s something so good, I find these games amazing, all the thought the designer had to put on it. I believe development was just about right.
Great review (as always)!! One question for everyone, if you have a minute to answer: Dead Reckoning vs Shiver me Timbers: which one would you prefer as a more thematic pirate game? I find it difficult to decide between these too.
Man, I really disagree with a lot of what you said. The setup is quick, but yes the tear down can be a lot. This is not a long event type game. 2 hours or less, maybe 3 if you have 4 new players. The game feels streamlined in comparison to a game like merchants and marauders. The buildings are not fluff, it helps to flesh out different strategies. Quite frankly I dont see the production flaws, the cube tower could be slightly better quality but everything else I think is great. 9 out of 10, could be a 10 once I play through the campaigns
As others have mentioned, I also want to echo that I would love to see an actual 4-squares review of this. Tom's assessment feels surprisingly dismissive to me, though I am sure that this isn't the intention.
I like that they are MUCH more concise.. However I miss having three different scores. I often wish their overviews were at 50% shorter and that most of the review was just feedback and scores. Separating out overviews and reviews wouldn't be a terrible idea.
I also much prefer the solo format over the 4 square reviews; often you get the sense that one player has played the game a lot and the others have maybe played the game once, or even just half. Get the guy who's played it the most and likes it the most, make sure he understands what others' issues are with the game so he can communicate them, and review.
@@simonadams Yeah 4 Squares are good IF all participants have played the game plenty. Otherwise it becomes a little jumbled and you get opinions mixed in that are based purely on first assumptions.
I often find I want to fight even when I know I will almost certainly lose because I get stuff even when I lose. John D Clair is a master at making pushing your luck beneficial and losing still a boon.
I think the game is not trimmed down because it works very well in the legacy variant. If I didn’t play the legacy variant, a lot of the game would be just ignored. Without the campaign mode I probably wouldn’t like this game that much. For the campaign mode, it is cool. Probably not worth the cost, but it is awesome.
I liked everything except combat resolution. The randomness there is so massive and there are too few cards that allow you to affect that in any way. Essentially it comes down to having too many spaces in the combat area that do nothing in half the battles. In PvP, these do nothing. In ship to shore these others do nothing and then the same for player vs NPC ship. So many parts of the game could be almost euro, but then combat wants to be a dexterity game, but then fails to commit to that and makes it a sloppy randomizer instead.
The randomness of combat resolution is not that massive. You get to control how many cubes you drop by upgrading ship, sailors along with deciding who you should attack or not. This in a way controls part of combat resolution. But let’s say you lose combat, you only take 1 damage and you don’t gain the battle achievement. I’ve won plenty of games where I lost a battle. I do think the 2 damage spot on battle board is a too swingy. I think a combined space with 1 damage and 1 coin would be better. I do dislike sinking when I only have 1 damage going into battle because sinking can be a game changer, but if I know an opponent has a heavy cannon strategy, I am going to try my best to avoid, repair damage, end turn in harbor, or build defensive buildings and end turn on that island.
@@KingMePlease3 I needed to take a port with 1 defense cube. In 3 battles with 6-7 cubes each, I got 0 wins. But that was attacking land. For land battles, damage does nothing. For land battles pillage/loot does nothing. Throw as many cubes as you want, if 2/3 of results give you nothing, it is easy to fail constantly.
@@ApesAmongUs yeah, I don’t want you to be guaranteed to win if you have 6 cubes and my fort has 5. I spent my resources to build that fort and protect my island. I don’t expect it to just go down easy. There are 7 to 9 more islands to pick on and target.
Finally got Dead Reckoning to the table. Full 4 people with everyone learning. I watched several videos and went over the book. Yeah, Tom Vasel is not wrong, this game is fiddly, and has maybe more mechanisms than it needs...and it's long. For our group, we know to basically double any play times listed on the box (because that's how our group is) and we're OK with it. The game took us an extra hour on top of that (so about 5 hours total). That said, we all really liked the game, and are willing to play it again. We'll likely shave 1.5-2 hours off on a subsequent play, because we all know the rules now, and have a feel for what decisions merit deep though, vs ones that don't. Also, I'm not entirely sure what I excise from the rules to shorten the game up. My group largely liked all the mechanisms. Tag teaming clean-up made that part go a lot faster, vs set up where I was basically the only one who knew how. Again, something that'll go faster on subsequent plays. I agree with the commenters below me. Fair and solid review.
Everyone learning the game for the first time is probably not the ideal situation for this game or any complex game. I am sure there were a lot of revisits to rule book during the play because there are some unique rules/situations that have to be remembered to keep the game flowing. I played a bunch solo before my first 4P game, and teaching it to three for first time took us 3 hours and 5 minutes to finish, versus 2 hours on the box. There is hope you will get your game plays under 3 hours, but keep in mind the game end triggers are based on how everyone plays and not specific rounds, which that will factor in too if no one is completing achievements.
I'm very interested in this game but it sounds like one that I might want to create some alternate rules for after playing it a bit. (As far as I'm concerned, when I I buy a game it's also a game development kit if need be. 😉)
Hi Tom. I backed this game and was really hyped about it. Like you, I like the game, its fun. But it didn't quite live up to my expectations. Good just not great for me. I did only play 2 players and adding a 3rd or 4th player would have made it better probably. My wife agrees with me that adding an automated rogue pirate marauder ship would have added more tension and more fun. Also, I think really needs asymmetric factions with different art for each. Would be a good expansion I believe.
One of the expansions available in the kickstarter gave you unique pirates with asymmetric powers that you draft before you play. I haven't played with it yet but that might fit your bill.
You only played a 2 player game and think it needs an expansion? I suggest playing a 3 and 4 player game, or playing multiple 2 player games. Coop is good with 2 players too. Either way, giving a suggestion for an expansion, which by the way the sea dogs expansion kind of does what you are looking for. This game is solid and like Tom says, needs multiple plays by the entire group, or a solid teacher that doesn’t need to sift through rulebook to make it an enjoyable experience for everyone at table.
I was sad I missed the KS before but now I don't mind. Seas of Havoc looks more like the kind of pirate game I'm looking for. Mostly the combat in Dead Reckoning doesn't appeal to me.
The combat is quite fun TBH. And is good in that even if you don't achieve your main goal of winning the fight, you still usually come out with some positive - either damaging your opponent or gaining resources. The only time this doesn't apply is if you are attacking a building, so in that scenario you just want to go in with an advantage and be aware of risk/reward.
That combat turned me off to this game. It looks way to random. Plus I can just picture the arguments that are to come on cubs being halfway on a line.
No arguments necessary. If the cube is on a line but leaning on a space, that's the action triggered. And if it's solely on the line you drop it back in. No ambiguity at all.
You can't tell in videos, but the areas between regions are raised a bit. So, cubes are either resting on the raised part (and then get re-dropped) or they are leaning into one of the regions and then are considered in the region they are leaning. It's impossible for there to be ambiguity due to the raised edges. That said, the cube combat against merchant ships was the only part I really enjoyed about the game. The other people I play with seem to really love it though.
Glad i did not back it. Pretty boring for a pirate game. Theme with fleet of the 17th/18th century whould be better here. With fleet from Dutch, England, Spain, France. Seeing the problems already with the components. Wonder how long those sleeves will last.
This is a fantasy pirate game like Sea of Thieves, they didn't want the miserable story of how piracy went down, AEG just wanted adventure and looting parts of piracy
Silly comment. Tom clearly does like this game quite a bit. He just pointed out a few things that preventing it from being one of his favorites. We can feel free to disagree in either direction, but hyperbole isn't helpful in any way. :)
You do NOT need to glue the cube tower ship if you build it correctly.
That said, the ship was a major PITA to build. The tolerances were way too tight, and it's way too easy to damage.
They should release an STL of the ship so you can 3D print your own.
No glue necessary for me either. Never even crossed my mind actually because everything fits so tightly. The holes were too small and made a few parts tough to put together for sure.
Trying to carefully sqeeze the cardboard pieces together to build the ship also results in squeaking noises that thematically sound like creaking wood.
had only one problem with the rear part, but it was terrible, had to use a cutter to widen the slit to put the piece
Great review! I love it, but you're right to say this may not be for everyone because of it's fiddliness, it's length, and setup/clean up. It's a fair and solid review.
My group has been LOVING Dead Reckoning! We have one more game to go for our first campaign playthrough. I'm kicking myself for not getting the second expansion. I'm excited to see what the third expansion will bring, as well.
Me too! This is battling for my favorite game of all time and I haven’t even touched saga 1 or 2 yet. Looking forward to saga 3 Kickstarter this summer.
Yep, played it with four and three of us gave it a ‘9’ or higher. There is so much to like about this game that any “messy” parts are negligible when everything else is so good.
We're due for a chat on this, aren't we
I am not sure a lot of this tracks. John D Clair is NOT my favorite designer, but this game is a masterpiece. Its not meant to be something non-sandbox (which appears to be the desire). It has about as many mechanisms as say Western Legends, but in a more cohesive way (thanks to the objective systems and end game trigger). The game giving players the ability to go Merchantile, Full on savage pirate or some hodgepodge of them is GREAT. No play of this, even at 3 with adding the AI has ever went more than 1 and a half hour (something was said about upgrading crew on others turns... which is in the rules anyway isn't it?).
Also the Saga expansions DON'T need to be played as campaigns. We simply add and alter decks with each play using Saga 1 and 2. So far it isn't any additional overhead really, and the added materials are great. The Sagas add sooo much to the sense of discovery as well.
Completely agree with everything you said. Dead Reckoning is easily the best pirate themed board game I've ever played. When you add sagas into the mix it basically becomes Pirates of The Caribbean in a box. I've only played it 3 times so far, but it's very close to knocking Twilight Imperium 4 from my top 1. Mechanically this game might have some flaws, but it perfectly captures everything you might want from a pirate board game. Top notch game design, card crafting itself is just genius imo.
The only part I agree about with Tom is the component problems. After multiple playthroughs some parts of this game like the ship, chests and sleeves might be damaged. Also, too few cubes, we end up using cubes from islands in the end game which is eeeeeeeh, feels weird.
@@crossrhodes14 Agreed. We have played well over 20 times now. I treated my ship with Midgepodge from a craft store and after that many plays, our ship is in perfect condition till. The Chests saw that same treatment recently. The sleeves, they are great quality and have replacements in case something happens. We played Mystic Vale from AEG well over 100 plays and never had more than a single sleeve remotely tear so I worry little about these.
The cubes are meant to be a limited resource, and while I don't love the feeling, the thematic integration of spreading your people too thin, and thus recalling people to the ship from islands does make sense.
@@cjpeach11 I was not aware of the cubes being a limited resource. Thanks for this! It pays to read the comments. :-)
Around the 9:40 ish time you state you place a cube to mark the achievement. I believe you place your Achievement markers to show you have completed the achievement. There are 3 achievements where you mark your progress with cubes but once the player has fulfilled that achievement they get their cubes back. The 3 spots are Exploration (# of cubes is dependent on player count), Expert Sailor (x4, so max of 3 cubes) and Legendary (i.e. ship combat (x4, max of 3 cubes)). This is stated in the rule book pages 21-22. I believe the game is resource limited including cubes so you have to manage them as well.
Yes, I misspoke. You place the achievement markers.
I played my first game with the first saga/expansion components mixed in. I was really happy that you don't need to play the campaign and that you can just let new events unfold as you continue to play. The new stuff definitely made exploring way more interesting. It does add some legacy-like reveals, so if you are overwhelmed with everything going on already, the expansion is going to add to that.
I really need to print up some player aides for battles. Those are the rules I have to keep explaining to players and there are 3 different types of battles that can occur.
Tom is wrong! This game should be seal of excellence, and maybe other Dice Tower members will help it get there eventually. I will just highlight the items I disagree with what Tom stated, and actually surprised he didn't give this an excellence rating given all of the positives he mentioned, which are spot on.
Components
1. Not going to deal with putting 3 cardboard pieces together on the ship board that takes less than a minute to do? Is it extra set up steps, yes, but it is not difficult or a big deal unless you are putting it away and playing it every day. Especially for a 2 hour game (a 30 minute game, yes I can see how this could get a little annoying).
2. A lot of symbology that players will take awhile to learn all of it. I thought the learning of the symbology was actually very straightforward and easy to learn. Probably one of the easiest things to learn in the game, and will probably only take 1-2 plays to have those down solid.
3. Yes pirate ship goes inside a big box, but it all fits inside the game box nicely...excellent, I don't want to put it together every game and I want it to last! All of the component trays (which are labeled by component) used during game are also the storage trays when put back into box. Excellent production choice there which also helps reduce set up and tear down tremendously.
4. The individual player aids that show the leveling up of each sailor is very well done. Really surprised this didn't get a plus rating because these are very useful for beginners.
5. The clear, individual advancements are very well made and easy to insert in sleeves, which makes the card crafting mechanic so much fun.
Final Thoughts
"I like it a lot, but it has a lot of problems." What?! A LOT of problems?! This is an exaggeration and shouldn't bring the game down.
1. "Set up and tear down are immense." I think for the amount of pieces and length of game play, set up and tear down are actually very streamlined. AEG did an awesome job putting this together, and although I haven't timed myself, I definitely can't agree with it being "immense". It is no Azul set up and tear down, but that shouldn't be expected for a 2 hour 4X style game. Since there is no main board, and instead 12 ocean tiles make up the board which allows variable play and strategy each time, not to mention room for expansion ocean tiles is a huge PLUS. Think of Istanbul individual tiles that set up the main board. I would take this variability over a single game board any day. As for sorting and putting away the clear advancements going into the sleeves (probably 8-12 per player per game), think of it as putting Space Base away and reorganizing all the cards back into level 1, level 2, level 3, or putting away all your Dominion deck cards back into their specific deck piles. Could you tear a sleeve? I suppose if you are careless, but I have played over 15 games myself and haven't even come close (although I also like to take care of my game components, so maybe I am an anomaly).
2. "There is too much." There is a lot but there is not "too much" because all the mechanics are intertwined smoothly and flow together well, which make it a very strategic and tactical game. End game conditions are solid and guide you to certain strategies/actions throughout the game (which they could also be customized into an expansion to create even more variability); leveling up and upgrading your pirates is one of the most enjoyable things in this game; how to upgrade your ship is interesting since I want all the upgrade abilities; area control is a very important part of the game and how it is designed with managing your cube resources since you only have 30 cubes; exploring new tiles is not difficult and actually not that rewarding unless more unique ocean tiles are introduced as expansions, but as you play the game more deciding what tiles to explore can be very strategic; the 3 different types of buildings are close to being "too much" but once you learn how to build and utilize them they are another viable support strategy for this pirate sandbox experience.
Tom is right in that we will want a 4 Square Review at some point to get more opinions. The key to making the game play enjoyable for all players at the table is having one person know all the possible rules inside and out (this is probably true for all games, but especially true for a unique game like this). What wasn't mentioned in the review, or atleast it didn't come across this way, is there are some very specific situational rules to remember since it is a sandbox style game (3 different types of battles and how those interactions all work, pirate mode for defense purposes, when you can or can't take something on the island when you win/lose a battle, when your ship is full of cargo/coins and you gain more from battle rewards where does that plunder go, losing control of an island even though you have the most recent permanent cube, etc... ). I think there will be some meh's/it's ok, some it is a really fun/great game, but there will be way more this game is one of my top 10 games of all time and definitely best pirate game out there.
I agree with most of your points and can see the case you make for the others. I disagree with one though: I don't think the assembled ship fits in the box nicely... or at least not in the version I got. From what I've seen in Tom's video, neither did his. I cut off the bent front part. I would also just add under "Components" that one can easily identify the open ocean tiles from their backs, which is really unfortunate. Still, I REALLY like this game.
@@antonieschwartz I had to take the cardboard insert out of the pirate ship box in order for it to fit. That cardboard insert was only to help stabilize it during shipping. You are right on the ocean tile backs and I should have mentioned that as a flaw. Maybe they will offer new, corrected open sea tiles to backers in next correct Kickstarter.
I think the scoring is meant to be part of the teardown. You score 1 point for every 2 upgrades, so when you do you last turn, unless somebody attacks you, you can start pulling out upgrades from the cards. We've been doing this and set up + teardown take 25 minutes at most. Compared to other 4x games like TI4 this is very fast imo.
Good review! Here are my thoughts on some points Tom brought up. For context, this is the not the sort of game I usually play but I've always wanted to have a 4x-type game I could bring out occasionally. I've played the game three times.
1. I was very hesitant to open my copy until I knew I could teach it to my game group. We mostly play light-medium to medium weight. I created a player aid (which I posted on BGG) which really helped me feel comfortable teach the game and not need to reference the rules. I strongly recommend it for those intimated by the rulebook. With the rules summary, I would put this in the medium to medium-heavy weight category. I think Paladins of the West Kingdom is the 'heaviest' weight game I own according to BGG.
2. Setup is actually pretty quick. I agree with Tom that teardown takes a little time with having to 'deconstruct' your decks, but no more than any other card-crafting game.
3. The ship is fine. It is a pain to build but it does not require glue. AEG (I think) posted a great video on BGG on how to put it together. The key is to take your time. And once you have it built, it's done. The box you store it in is fine and it's really no big deal to take the walls off the bottom piece after each game. I also don't understand the complaint that it takes up a lot of space in the box. Who cares? It's not like you can shrink the box. The box size has already been set. Everything fits in the box easily with room to spare.
4. The component that is most frustrating is the barrels. There simply aren't enough so you constantly have to trade to the 3-value barrels. The chest is fine. I don't even bother closing mine. I just let the lid sit on the box. It still hides the coins fine.
5. I actually think battles are fairly low-stakes. You actually don't lose anything unless your ship is sunk (which takes 5 damage). And even then, all you really lose is a minimum of 5 gold up to any gold currently on your ship. Otherwise, you can actually gain gold/cargo in battles (which come from the supply and not your opponent) quite easily. I agree that I wish there were more fights but I think that is the people I play with.
6. The icons are very straightforward and no more complicated than other games of similar weight.
7. Our consistent play time has been 2 1/2 hours for 4 players, and that's with one AP player.
8. I don't get the "this game is too much" comment. It's no more than any other games of similar weight, including the current Ark Nova hotness. Buildings are simple. Exploration is simple. Upgrading your ship is simple. Upgrading your card is simple. The two most complicated parts of the game are island control and combat.
9. I agree with Tom. The best part of the game is upgrading your pirates!
Box fits everything, including both sagas
The Sagas truly make this game a 10/10 for me. They add story, some legacy stuff and they make exploration into an actual thing.
@@crossrhodes14 I’ve finally started playing with Saga 1 and agree, discovering all the new content within a light story wrapper is really fun.
@@crossrhodes14is it truly legacy? I.e. do you put stickers on somewhere or stuff like that? Or a legacy game in a way that you slowly add stuff like new cards to the game?
Ghost meeple moves across the board at 7:39 😱
I really disagree about the buildings. They really add to the depth and strategic part of the game. Some islands give way more points and you want to defend those islands when you're not around to prevent others from putting influence cubes there. The way to that is via buildings. Also you can boost your production on your islands via buildings if production is your strategy to gain a lot of coins (and therefore points). I certainly wouldn't cut out the buildings, it would make the game worse.
Also the setup is pretty fast. You can be up and running in 10 minutes after a few games, which isn't bad for an experience like this.
The teach isn't that bad either. Just look at the how to play of jongetsgames, it's not that long compared to other games. And the rulebook is great in my opinion. It's not huge as said.
To me it's the perfect mix of fun gameplay, depth and strategy. I didn't know what to expect but I was very pleasantly surprised. I think I like this game better than Scythe for example, which I played a lot too.
I think having buildings helps with strategy for sure and gives another type of card in deck, but I think there are additional rules that make the buildings confusing or hard to remember with the player interactions. I don’t think they should be taken out, but I wonder if they could have been streamlined a little better. It took me multiple games before I understood the buildings completely without referencing rule book.
Set up is not bad and good for this length and type of experience.
The teach isn’t difficult, just a lot to go over given the “sandbox” type experience.
This, I think the fact you don't HAVE to make buildings and can win does not suggestion that buildings have no value. I think this game simply requires numerous plays in order to see all that can be done and figure out the best way to generate points.
This is an absolute 10/10 for me and I would not have cut a thing. It feels like Scythe or Tapestry in how much "stuff" you can do. Even the component quality, I would say, is absolutely perfect. The treasure chest goes into itself rather than outside? That seems like a serious nitpick. I have been searching for a "perfect pirate game" for years and I've literally hated most I've played, not just not loved. This is definitely the best pirate game of them all.
When the whole game seems so deliberate in design, the element of the cubes rolling into the pirate ship seems too random, and I would imagine that it could screw you over and take away from a well-built strategy that you have going on if you get bad rolls.
AEG is a legit BG manufact. It behooves them to put it in retail shops.
Not hunting for "cheap" FOMO effect buyers.
They're lucky to have John D Claire, he created their "card crafting" system, but also Space Base
Strong agree. Their brand needs to go retail. At this point kickstart-only feels like snobbery.
I have to ask! For everyone that’s played merchants and marauders, where does this land for you? Better, worse, about the same?
Prior to this merchants and marauders was my favorite pirate game. This is now my favorite. Being able to upgrade my crew, my ship and even control islands is really cool. The cube tower makes the game very exciting and not as punishing. When you die in merchants and marauders it is very hard to come back from, not so much in this one.
@@andrewww3389 Thanks for your response! I’ll have to check this one out. I’ve been hearing things about it for a while but hadn’t seen any playthrough’s or reviews yet. Pirates feels like an underutilized theme in games, I’m glad to see more of them!
I like Merchants and Marauders better, bit the game is nice... they are fairly different experiences
@@andrewww3389 Still hesitating about this one. I hated merchants and merauders. Most hated game I ever
played . The luck factor was gigantic. I was stuck with bad dice Rolls and kept on repeating my action over and over. IT was that of dying. And dying is...well yeah... And that took hours...
So now dead is compared to M&M... Is the luck in dice a big thing here? I like to have control over my games.
@@4Tforyou sorry to hear that, I usually dont like a lot of randomness in my games also but M&M is an exception, I like the story it creates and if you go the path of the merchant it's much less random (less battles). Dead Reckoning doesnt share a lot of similarities besides the fact that it's a large pirate game where you are sailing around the board. There is no dice and the combat system is far more forgiving (even if you lose you still get loot and you dont lose progress in the game). Dead Reckoning is more mechanism driven as opposed to being story driven like M&M. Hope this helps.
I found that adding the Saga content added a real something extra to the exploration aspect. Oooooh, is that a Saga card? What light story aspect is going to be revealed? If I explore a new island, am I going to reveal a Saga advancement? I've just left it integrated and clarify for new people as necessary. It makes the game more fun imho.
Totally with you on a lot of points, both good and bad.
I love card crafting and Edge of Darkness was the peak of that for me. It works well here along with the pirate upgrades. The theme works well even though I'm not a pirate fan and it's cool getting new cards. And there are a few interesting paths in the game, I actually have done well without levelling up the Bosun for ship upgrades.
But exploring is pretty rubbish, none of the islands are interesting and totally this game could have been cut down. Buildings feel very tacked on as a mechanism and not worth actually building if you want to do well in the game and this is easily a 3 hour game with 4 players - 2 hours with 4 players, yeah that is a total exception, not the rule. And it was a humongous teach from my friend with the game and the setup/takedown took ages. The combat is also fun, but very swingy. It's a 13 point swing if your ship gets sunk by a player, nothing else in the game comes close to that level of points swing and in a 2-3 hour game swings aren't a good thing so I'm hit and miss on that cube combat.
This was the card crafting game I decided to not back on KS because of owning MV and EoD already - and I don't have regrets despite enjoying the game overall. The stuff that works well in this game works very well which is everything to do with the cards and the production, but "streamlining" is a word that needed to be applied in the development stage as I think if this was a 2 hour max affair even at 4 with teach it would be amazing.
I'm just here for final thoughts and The Broken Meeple comment 😂
@@papaspapbar2736 Both worth it I hope 😁
@@TheBrokenMeeple Yes! They go hand in hand ;)
oof could not disagree more. Now after 10 games in, it would be a travesty to trim out anything from this game. 10/10
This game blew me away- can’t wait to play it again!
I absolutely am loving Dead Reckoning. Don't usually disagree with Tom, but I wouldn't want anything pared down/out from this. Practically a perfect pirate game imo. :)
This is how I feel too. Love this game and it's been a big hit with my friends.
Likewise!
Wow, I thought Tom would like this more. I’ve played a couple games solo, and so far for my tastes it’s just about perfect.
I LOVE the sandbox feeling this game has.
It's funny, because I somewhat agree with you about it feeling like there's too much in this game, but at the same time, I wouldn't actually remove anything at all. I do think the cube tower feels woefully under utilised in most games, and commented on this in my own review. I must confess that I don't find the tear down to be quite as onerous as you make out either.
I think it's a really good game, but I do agree that there is a LOT going on. Despite its appearances, it's actually a very in-depth and complicated game, though you can play it at a far quicker and more accessible level. The sagas also add a ton to the game when playing the game as a short campaign. The way it adds in narrative, but also incentive to explore and trade off immediate gains for potential long terms points makes for a really solid campaign experience - which is even better because you're doing stupid things like ripping up cards or stickering things like in legacy games. If you want, you can reset the game fully and explore the content from scratch.
This is still one of my top if not the top game of 2022.
I love it. The only 2 component issues I agree with is the pirate flag and not being able to store the battle mat with the sides glued in. They are a bit flimsy as is.
My first game teaching it to 2 New players ran very long though. I think perhaps i underestimated the complexity a bit. Still loved it, but so far enjoyed it most at 2 players and solo due to that length issue. Would love to get it to a more efficuent point within my group, but that is true for other games as well.
You can fit the battle board with sides on. I superglued mine on. You can stack some of the sea tiles inside, they fit, and the rest spread around the box.
@@korologosmichael0 will probably give that a try.
3 plays in, I would say that this is a great 4X Pirate game. My Quibbles include the fact that there isn't quite enough pieces but as to all of the mechanisms, no, that is basically perfect.
When you say "isn't quite enough pieces..." what do you mean? There's exactly the number of pieces to balance the game.
@@Joshua_Tymchyn I understand that the 30 cubes are there for the purposes of balance, the more of them you use for one thing the less you have for another (although the fact that they get used to track achievements seems ... wrong). But there isn't enough buildings if you get into a game where lots are being built, Barrels have to be consolidated or you run out, coins have to be taken out of the chest and counted out so that you can replace 1s with higher denominations, bc you are going to run out of the lower numbers. I just feel like they could have given us more of these components.
I think nowadays designers are losing focus and just making things far too sand box or open ended. I like dungeon crawls and exploring in games, but why add 4-7 major mechanisms to further bloat a game. Not only is it hard to keep track of everything, but it takes far too much space on the shelf and table, and not to mention the cost. I think board games are trying to hard to simulate video games, and it's just not going to happen. The book keeping alone becomes a nightmare, and this just look like to much to the point of being an RPG at this point.
Love these ideas together a deck builder, and a cube tower randomiser To my fave mechanics in gameing
I want a pirate week lol. Play sea of legends live please. And this one. And tiny epic pirates... and forgotten waters. I cant think of a 5th recent release pirate game... but there has to be one... i guess merchant cove???
I love Mystic Vale and respect the designer for his innovation. But this feels like a lighter version of Seafall without the legacy component. Am I off base?
It does have legacy component in both expansions but it doesn't focus on them, you can just add all of them to your game any time.
@@crossrhodes14 very similar with what John D Claire did with Space base "Shy Pluto", there's some story elements that add some cards and limited game rules
Odd production decisions? Definitely. Best game I've played this year? It possibly could have been had I not played Obsession. Dead Reckonig is a great game! (And yes, clean up is a pain.)
What are the odd production decisions? The ship is solid and makes it thematic and useful during the game. I am not sure if Tom said in his review this is a Kickstarter only game, but Kickstarters allow games to have overproduced pieces. The box for the ship will keep the ship intact and not all bent up.
The ship board with the removable borders is unfortunate that they don’t lock in, but again I wonder if those pieces would get bent up in the box. It literally takes less than 1 minute to put the borders on the board. This is NOT an issue and I think Tom is being too nit picky for how minimal this is during setup. If the piece fell apart when cubes dropped or it didn’t fit, then that is a valid issue, but I haven’t seen this issue in over 10 plus plays.
The pirate flag doesn’t stay well on each player’s ship, and I think that affects game play because it is somewhat hard to see and can fall off ship. This seemed like an odd or poorly made production piece.
I think some of the back of ocean boards (specifically the open sea tiles) are a discolored and can be distinguished from the other ocean boards with a good eye. This is a poor production issue though, not odd.
Tom again didn’t mention how storage and take down works. You probably do 8-12 sleeve advancements per player per game. They need to put them back in their respective boxes, but this take down for a 2-3 hour game is fine by me. Probably similar to dominion or space base tear down, which can be much shorter games. There are even storage boxes to use as containers during game that are LABELED to make set up and tear down more convenient. Very nice production touches in my mind that not sure if they were mentioned.
Will the individual player chests tear after multiple plays? Possibly. Could you keep the chest open and still have the chest secretive…yes. Would magnetic be better? I think so especially for Kickstarter, but it works and all individual player pieces fit nicely in it when putting game away and stacks nicely in box…no storage bags needed here. Again, another production nitpick that I don’t think should matter.
I completely agree with you that this game is great!
@@KingMePlease3 naming islands in French/Spanish/German was a really bad production decision.
@@MrGainify what's wrong with that?
@@KingMePlease3 perhaps "odd" for me here includes "poor" production decisions.
I would actually have liked the box to be 1mm bigger as it led to the front of my ship getting bent. I cut a part off to make it fit better. I read other gamers' solutions to the issue of preventing bent/frayed cardboard, but I guess I'm not as clever/skilled or patient as they are.
I agree, the pirate flags are odd. I actually don't mind assembling the conflict area every game that much, other that the eventual fraying it'll cause. I would've preferred it somehow be a single piece, but understand the cost, pratical and graphic appeal limitations/implications that presents. I wouldn't want a grey piece of plastic as a replacement, for instance. I didn't think of the difference in colouration on the tile backs initially (thanks for reminding me), making the open ocean tile easy to spot. But, to your point, i agree this would be better described as a "poor" rather than an "odd" production decision (or insufficient quality control).
@@antonieschwartz Wait the boat fits perfectly in the box. Did you not remove the cardboard that was added solely for transport? Seriously, the boat fits without issue.
I have and enjoy Edge of Darkness, as well as this and while setup and teardown are involved, I smirk at the idea that this someone counts as a negative. The game is fun, possibly lasts longer, although this is group determined, and worth the play as it is a very unique and compelling play system. I think the suggestion it need longer development is silly, same with Edge of Darkness, the games play as designed and provide unique experiences. They may not be for everyone, but we certainly had fun moving around the board and putting our pirate flags on.
Has the Dice Tower done a top 10 sandbox games list?
I would like to play an app version
This game still isn’t to retail….
If one had a choice, would you choose scythe or dead reckoning? I have both, but I'm looking to get rid of one, they seem so similar (even though there is so much more luck in DR) I'm moving so have to cut down on games, help me keep one!
Depends on if you like pirates or post apoc
I own both games as well, I find them different enough
I hated edge of darkness, but this is one of my favourite games right now! That pirate mode token though is the worst thing ever, it does not work! I HATE it!
I'd love to see a follow up review of Sea of Legends when Guildhall Studios releases their new rule book and improved app.
This or merchants & marauders?
Is this game available in retail or direct from the publisher? Or is this a review only for people who already own the game (i.e. kickstarter backers)? :)
It’s a Kickstarter only game
Coming back to Kickstarter on August 9th I believe with a 3rd expansion.
The Saga content does not need the campaign. The Saga content is amazing!!! Works best organically. You can just add it to the game and start playing. No campaign necessary. Any persistent items stay with player color that unlocked it so players can hop in and out. All Saga content has the story info on the cards so you have all the information needed on where the cards came from for the players that were not present when the card came out.
I will disagree. Not messy in my opinion. The game said up front it was a 4x game. Go into it knowing that and you will love it.
Best pirate game I have ever played.
So far I'm loving it and I wouldn't cut a thing!!
Is it better than merchants and marauders?
I personally think it is. It's my favorite pirate themed game
While it's long, I felt that there was less downtime compared with M&M
I really disagree on this one. It’s heads and shoulders the best pirate game I have ever played. I love how epic everything is. There are so many ways to play. It’s a 4x game really. Losing battles is often a benefit. This is likely a top 10 game all time for me.
Yeah I actually love how battles against other players can often be a win/win as the loser can often come away with more supplies or coin as well.
Real pirates aren’t actually necessarily as bad as they’re remembered. Pirates were working class and poor people, free or escaped slaves, even women. They were fighting for their lives against huge navies of conscripted sailors who lived in terrible conditions. Pirates were often welcomed by crews who would hand over their captains and use the chance to either escape or he rid of a cruel captain. Obviously the defining issues of the time were slavery, colonialism, and large scale warfare. Pirates were either not part of any of those or worked against them. Officially sanctioned pirates like Francis Drake are remembered positively even though their actions were actually more cruel and violent than most pirates. Fear of pirates was propaganda from both empires who hated them and pirates who wanted their targets to just surrender and avoid costly battles. Out of everyone at sea in those days, pirates were probably the best people on the ocean.
¿Any book references/documentaries so I can read of this?
@@malcolmdouglasmichaluk8263 A General History of the Pyrates is a great book, but I found it difficult to read. Do not read it online, you will lose your eyesight lol
I love this game, easily ended up in my top 5, and I love the passion that Tom showed in this review. Probably my favorite of his. Great job Tom!
My wife and I really love this game, we even got it to the table 5 times the first weekend it arrived! I can absolutely see what you mean about the fiddliness, there are a lot of rules that I wish were cleaner but understand why they are the way they are (setting sails with a full ship while docked seeming to trip people up more than most). As for set up and tear down, I actually found set up to be a breeze with the storage system it comes with, and the scoring at the end is designed so you can put the game away as you count points which makes the end of the game a lot smoother. Glad you're also enjoying your time as a pirate!
More buildings would improve it ;¬)
I got my pledge for this and STILL haven't gotten it played! Ugh! I need to make it happen! heh :-) Been hearing really positive things... and I'm curious how I will feel about everything. I often align with Tom, so we'll see if that holds true here too.
UPDATE: Yeah, this time I don't align with Tom as much... I definitely enjoyed this one a lot more than Tom. Very fun game! :-D
We played it and loved it on the first play though. Hope you table is soon
Same here KK!
man, I love this game. Each time I play it it gets better
At last! Have waited so long for this… would have thought it would be a 4 square review, but it’s okay. Ok, NOW I will check out the review! 😃
Well, I have to say Tom, we have similar taste in games and I normally agree with you 70 to 90% of what you say, but in this case, you are 100% spot on, for me. I'm going to play my third game Thursay and although you can completely forget some aspect fo the games like ships upgrade or buildings, this is a fun game with multiple way to win. We will start the campaign soon and we expect to love it. But all in all, it is not a perfect game, I'm not even sure I'll say a great game... But by God, I have so much fun playing it!
Thank you for your honest review.
I'd love to get Dead Reckoning, but it seems like it's nearly impossibly to find if you didn't back the KS.
They are going to have a second Kickstarter this summer. But yeah it is hard to find.
That virtually no one is selling their pledge is saying a lot. I'm hanging tight to my one, it's an outstanding game.
I wish it would go to retail, and just sell it for high $. It would atleast be an option for those that can’t get it now, and puts the game in more peoples hands then.
@@nathansutterfield If I wasn't completely done with KS, I'd be on that. C'est la vie, I guess.
Add the saga content but don't play the campaign mode-campaign mode has very little continuity and no storyline so it's totally not necessary. I totally love this game.
The sleeve+transparent cards seem more like a fancy novelty to me. It is nice, but the same result could be achieved with a bunch of regular cards and deckbuilding. Or is there something that I can't get?
I think the card crafting is really nice and provides a different experience to traditional deck building. You customize the cards to your liking, and have more control over what synergies are on each card. The biggest difference though is your deck will always be 12 cards. With traditional deck building you might buy a really good card but you'll only see it a few times during the game, if that. With this you don't have to worry about cards watering down your deck and it's more fun because you'll get to play the stuff you bought a lot more frequently.
Luke is right on. You have the opportunity to create and combine up to 3 cards of your liking into 1 powerful card, which allows you to draw that powerful card in your hand more frequently. The decision making on which advancement/transparent card to purchase (can it fit on the first, second or third section of your sailor card) and what sailor to put it on is also enjoyable.
I think sometimes people miss the fact that some board games, like this one, are going more to the field of what I call "board game videogame", which is something I really like, love to have so many things to do, they feel like video games or board games, that´s something so good, I find these games amazing, all the thought the designer had to put on it. I believe development was just about right.
Great review (as always)!! One question for everyone, if you have a minute to answer: Dead Reckoning vs Shiver me Timbers: which one would you prefer as a more thematic pirate game? I find it difficult to decide between these too.
Played it yesterday. A lot of fun!
One of your more nuanced reviews.
It would've been nice if the sleeves had a cut in the corner or something. Looks like it'd be a pain to keep taking out and putting back in
I've not found sleeving or unsleeving to be an issue in four or so plays so far.
This is the best game I've played this year!
Man, I really disagree with a lot of what you said. The setup is quick, but yes the tear down can be a lot. This is not a long event type game. 2 hours or less, maybe 3 if you have 4 new players. The game feels streamlined in comparison to a game like merchants and marauders. The buildings are not fluff, it helps to flesh out different strategies. Quite frankly I dont see the production flaws, the cube tower could be slightly better quality but everything else I think is great. 9 out of 10, could be a 10 once I play through the campaigns
I sold this fiddly game. It was okay, but not worth the clean up. I wish Merchants and Marauders would come out with a new edition.
As others have mentioned, I also want to echo that I would love to see an actual 4-squares review of this. Tom's assessment feels surprisingly dismissive to me, though I am sure that this isn't the intention.
I'd be interested in a game with that cube tower combat mechanic...
To be honest, I enjoy your reviews by yourself. I don't care for the 4 square reviews.
I like that they are MUCH more concise.. However I miss having three different scores. I often wish their overviews were at 50% shorter and that most of the review was just feedback and scores. Separating out overviews and reviews wouldn't be a terrible idea.
I also much prefer the solo format over the 4 square reviews; often you get the sense that one player has played the game a lot and the others have maybe played the game once, or even just half. Get the guy who's played it the most and likes it the most, make sure he understands what others' issues are with the game so he can communicate them, and review.
@@simonadams Yeah 4 Squares are good IF all participants have played the game plenty. Otherwise it becomes a little jumbled and you get opinions mixed in that are based purely on first assumptions.
The cube tower combat resolution is very unappealing to me. The imprecise nature of it. Also, it's very random.
I often find I want to fight even when I know I will almost certainly lose because I get stuff even when I lose. John D Clair is a master at making pushing your luck beneficial and losing still a boon.
I think the game is not trimmed down because it works very well in the legacy variant. If I didn’t play the legacy variant, a lot of the game would be just ignored.
Without the campaign mode I probably wouldn’t like this game that much. For the campaign mode, it is cool. Probably not worth the cost, but it is awesome.
I suggest you 1 round Lv Up 2 different card, it will be great game.~
I liked everything except combat resolution. The randomness there is so massive and there are too few cards that allow you to affect that in any way. Essentially it comes down to having too many spaces in the combat area that do nothing in half the battles. In PvP, these do nothing. In ship to shore these others do nothing and then the same for player vs NPC ship. So many parts of the game could be almost euro, but then combat wants to be a dexterity game, but then fails to commit to that and makes it a sloppy randomizer instead.
The randomness of combat resolution is not that massive. You get to control how many cubes you drop by upgrading ship, sailors along with deciding who you should attack or not. This in a way controls part of combat resolution. But let’s say you lose combat, you only take 1 damage and you don’t gain the battle achievement. I’ve won plenty of games where I lost a battle.
I do think the 2 damage spot on battle board is a too swingy. I think a combined space with 1 damage and 1 coin would be better. I do dislike sinking when I only have 1 damage going into battle because sinking can be a game changer, but if I know an opponent has a heavy cannon strategy, I am going to try my best to avoid, repair damage, end turn in harbor, or build defensive buildings and end turn on that island.
@@KingMePlease3 I needed to take a port with 1 defense cube. In 3 battles with 6-7 cubes each, I got 0 wins. But that was attacking land. For land battles, damage does nothing. For land battles pillage/loot does nothing. Throw as many cubes as you want, if 2/3 of results give you nothing, it is easy to fail constantly.
@@ApesAmongUs which makes buildings so good. Where did 1 defense cube come from?
@@KingMePlease3 And by "good" you mean "prone to randomness".
@@ApesAmongUs yeah, I don’t want you to be guaranteed to win if you have 6 cubes and my fort has 5. I spent my resources to build that fort and protect my island. I don’t expect it to just go down easy. There are 7 to 9 more islands to pick on and target.
Finally got Dead Reckoning to the table. Full 4 people with everyone learning. I watched several videos and went over the book. Yeah, Tom Vasel is not wrong, this game is fiddly, and has maybe more mechanisms than it needs...and it's long. For our group, we know to basically double any play times listed on the box (because that's how our group is) and we're OK with it. The game took us an extra hour on top of that (so about 5 hours total). That said, we all really liked the game, and are willing to play it again. We'll likely shave 1.5-2 hours off on a subsequent play, because we all know the rules now, and have a feel for what decisions merit deep though, vs ones that don't. Also, I'm not entirely sure what I excise from the rules to shorten the game up. My group largely liked all the mechanisms. Tag teaming clean-up made that part go a lot faster, vs set up where I was basically the only one who knew how. Again, something that'll go faster on subsequent plays.
I agree with the commenters below me. Fair and solid review.
Everyone learning the game for the first time is probably not the ideal situation for this game or any complex game. I am sure there were a lot of revisits to rule book during the play because there are some unique rules/situations that have to be remembered to keep the game flowing. I played a bunch solo before my first 4P game, and teaching it to three for first time took us 3 hours and 5 minutes to finish, versus 2 hours on the box. There is hope you will get your game plays under 3 hours, but keep in mind the game end triggers are based on how everyone plays and not specific rounds, which that will factor in too if no one is completing achievements.
I'm very interested in this game but it sounds like one that I might want to create some alternate rules for after playing it a bit. (As far as I'm concerned, when I I buy a game it's also a game development kit if need be. 😉)
I almost bought that Game On sign from Hobby Lobby 🤣
Hi Tom. I backed this game and was really hyped about it. Like you, I like the game, its fun. But it didn't quite live up to my expectations. Good just not great for me. I did only play 2 players and adding a 3rd or 4th player would have made it better probably.
My wife agrees with me that adding an automated rogue pirate marauder ship would have added more tension and more fun.
Also, I think really needs asymmetric factions with different art for each. Would be a good expansion I believe.
One of the expansions available in the kickstarter gave you unique pirates with asymmetric powers that you draft before you play. I haven't played with it yet but that might fit your bill.
You only played a 2 player game and think it needs an expansion? I suggest playing a 3 and 4 player game, or playing multiple 2 player games. Coop is good with 2 players too. Either way, giving a suggestion for an expansion, which by the way the sea dogs expansion kind of does what you are looking for. This game is solid and like Tom says, needs multiple plays by the entire group, or a solid teacher that doesn’t need to sift through rulebook to make it an enjoyable experience for everyone at table.
Thanks Tom! I think I will wait for version 2.0 to cut out the flotsam.
Great game, one of the few good pirate themed games as well, albeit a bit long
Sounds like it needs a 2nd Edition.
Seems very finicky. I agree that the cube dropping looks like an awesome mechanic. Give me a lighter merchants and marauders that uses this mechanic.
Disagree with you on this one. This game hits the sweet spot
I was sad I missed the KS before but now I don't mind. Seas of Havoc looks more like the kind of pirate game I'm looking for. Mostly the combat in Dead Reckoning doesn't appeal to me.
Combat is why I didn’t back this
The combat is quite fun TBH. And is good in that even if you don't achieve your main goal of winning the fight, you still usually come out with some positive - either damaging your opponent or gaining resources. The only time this doesn't apply is if you are attacking a building, so in that scenario you just want to go in with an advantage and be aware of risk/reward.
That combat turned me off to this game. It looks way to random. Plus I can just picture the arguments that are to come on cubs being halfway on a line.
No arguments necessary. If the cube is on a line but leaning on a space, that's the action triggered. And if it's solely on the line you drop it back in.
No ambiguity at all.
You can't tell in videos, but the areas between regions are raised a bit. So, cubes are either resting on the raised part (and then get re-dropped) or they are leaning into one of the regions and then are considered in the region they are leaning. It's impossible for there to be ambiguity due to the raised edges.
That said, the cube combat against merchant ships was the only part I really enjoyed about the game. The other people I play with seem to really love it though.
@@PickleTheHutt that does help.
A messier version of Sailblazer then?
Just as I thought, too much...
Glad i did not back it.
Pretty boring for a pirate game.
Theme with fleet of the 17th/18th century whould be better here.
With fleet from Dutch, England, Spain, France.
Seeing the problems already with the components.
Wonder how long those sleeves will last.
This is a fantasy pirate game like Sea of Thieves, they didn't want the miserable story of how piracy went down, AEG just wanted adventure and looting parts of piracy
I think it's fun. but it just adds a lot of stuff that are just components in search of mechanics that drag it down.
Ok, got it, the game sucks! Tks
Not at all what I said!
Clearly you didn't watch the entire review. What a ridiculous take.
Silly comment. Tom clearly does like this game quite a bit. He just pointed out a few things that preventing it from being one of his favorites. We can feel free to disagree in either direction, but hyperbole isn't helpful in any way. :)