“The age of consent is 16” yes, the age of consent is 16 here. But you have to still be within 2 years of each other. Not 25 months, 24 months or less. No, middle aged men, you cannot make out with a 16 year old. That is still illegal.
That’s why there should be *two* legal ages of consent. One that is restricted to teenagers and defines their sexual relationships as only being appropriate when both teens are the same age, and the other age of consent would be for legal adults of any age to have relationships with other legal adults of any age but never with children or teenagers. Ideally, with Romeo and Juliet laws, there would be two legal ages of consent because preventing teenagers from having relationships with each other isn’t feasible or practical, but in practice, those laws are abused in many states to allow child marriages between older adults and teens.
@ I agree. Although some evil people want to lower the age of consent and to legalize child marriage. Unfortunately, those people are the ones currently in power.
I'm the kind of person who believes that it's okay to ship two canonically teenage characters as long as it's in a PERFECTLY sfw way. As long as you are not sexualizing either character or their relationship in any capacity I think it's okay to ship them.
Yeah like she starts with, like youll see some characters like for example tao and elle in heartstopper and be like “aw theyd be so cute tg i ship it” and thats normal to say, thats differnt from the gross things proshippers say like theyll dismiss pedophelia in tv
exactly you can ship bakudeku as long as you don’t have them in an intense sexual s&m/subdom relationship! is that so hard to do? (yeah for some people it is i knew someone like that)
I was assaulted by my stepbrother. I cringe at how people normalize it and call it “love”, because that’s what he tried to do with me. The stepsibling normalization needs to stop.
Jesus Christ, I'm sorry you had to deal with that. You're right, nobody should be normalizing this or anything adjacent to it. I hope you're doing alright now.
Also, about the "step siblings" part, i feel like alot of people don't realize how fucking rude and insensitive it is to say? Just admit you see any family that isnt nuclear as lesser because some people in it aren't blood related. Family isnt dictated by blood but by love and "they arent siblings so its okay" feels like a slap across the face of all the parents and siblings who'd go above and beyong for their adopted kids and siblings.
the reason incest is even frowned upon is because the lack of genetic data from relatives AKA family, that aint really the case with step siblings. step family is brought into the family and the incest is bad sentiment manifested into like the general dynamic of family members. Does this mean those people view step family as lesser? no, it's just because the root problem of incest is genetics, which wouldn't be a problem with step siblings. Btw not defending, just explaining
YEAH. Like 3 of my cousins are adopted, and I genuinely usually forget because they're no less family than my bio cousins. Shipping any type of family even if not blood related urks me out fr fr...
@@sabreena5611 I only write dark themes respectfully. You don’t need to be a proshipper to agree with this statement either, stalking is absolutely terrifying because your home, the one place you’re supposed to be safe in, is dangerous. That sound above could be regular house noises, or a person walking upstairs. I have multiple ideas of stories (including murder, rape, and pedophilia as core features) but it’s never sexualized or shown as glamorous, even if the characters are killing terrible people.
Sexualized doesn't mean like good, it's neutral perpective on a thing. So I don't agree with that, I do agree on having stories using that for meaning. I believe you mean using the sexualaztion for just gratification rather than what I said.
What would atcually be related would be "freedom of action" which actually connects to the topic about Proshipping. in the anology it would be something like-thinking about it's alot harder due to how that statement has both SiMilarities and differences. Pancakes and waffles are made from the same material just different forms, liking one suggest the other wasn't up to par But it's not enough because nothing in the main sentence was decriptive or mentioned any dislike because the relation was too weak. I was gonna say so your fine with animal molestation but that has the same issue of siMilar but not enough since it's just merely a liking of a random food item. The only condoing done is the food item itself, nothing about it's parts nothing about it's similar forms, just a thing that is liked that doesn't have much more to it. That be different if it was like" I Like the current twitter owner(I cannot believe he was so forgetable I forgot his name)" which still the has the same issue because it doesn't mention aNything specific. So noone can really have a "got ya!" Moment, it's a like of something related to him thats it. Thats why finding a way to counter "I like Pancakes" it's almost impossible because there isn't much to work with or care about past just adding to it or stading your own opinion on it. @@undeadswans
THANK YOU /GEN I ship characters frequently as LONG AS THEY ARE UNRELATED AND ARE IN THE SAME AGE RANGE. I don’t ship pedophilia, incest, and zoophilia because like I DON’T THINK WE SHOULD ROMATICIZE PEDOPHILIA, INCEST, ZOOPHILIA, AND THEIR ILK. /gen
I hate hate hate when people say they're proshippers to help with their trauma because I do use fan media to deal with my trauma, but not in the same way. I don't ship characters into bad relationships, but if I read a fanfiction where, let's eay Levi Ackerman has a complicated relationship woth intimacy because his mother was a sex worker and might have accidentally exposed him to that world and how he was almost sex trafficked, or how Momo Yaoyorozu deals with objectification at such a young age, it's because I want to feel seen. This character understands how I feel and it's like I'm less alone. There are healthy ways to engage with art that doesn't justify these bad things. I think it should also be mentioned that just because you're a victim doesn't mean you can't have your mind warped by this stuff and act as a perpetrator because you think it's okay. It's actually quite common in underage sex offenders for them to have been abused first and learn it from somewhere. I have empathy for these people's pain but it doesn't absolve them of spreading harm or directly harming others.
8:20 "When you consume something repeatedly it changes the way you think" this! This is why diversity is so important in fiction! Movies and film trigger similar parts in your brain as interacting with those groups. It normalizes it to you, which with diversity is a good thing... but you don't want to normalize problematic relationships in your brain...
😇 When you’re so fatuous you openly admit that the diversity push is in fact brainwashing. I’m very grateful for the puerile posters on youtube now. Saying the quiet part aloud. Once again, more content to allow people in the middle to make their own decision (we don’t need to MKULTRA them like you do).
No, that is not true. She is spreading misinformation, consuming dark content will not ‘poison’ your brain, that is rooted in conservative Christian rhetoric, and is blatantly false and anti-science. There are many studies that prove that taboo fantasies are normal, and exploring dark fictional content helps MANY victims cope with their trauma. (And IS SUPPORTED by licensed therapists) To compare them to their abusers for consuming dark fiction (a completely non-harmful and safe way to cope with their trauma) is insulting to victims and is disrespectful.
Im going to be saying this as someone studying psychology atm. This is frankly untrue, just from a logic perspective, removed from academic conjecture Not only does this now enable the idea that the audience may turn violent if consuming enough violent content. This also enables the hoπophobic worldview that someone could possibly be "made hoπose×μaI" from consuming particular content if given enough time the influence that media has on people is _much_ more nuanced than just exposure = action. And frankly, it's disappointing seeing this position out in the wild
@ThatsCyrus Okay 1: do a little research before trying to say something. Look for the Stanford University article "The transformative power of film" (I tried to put a link, but it caused my comment to disappear). And 2: I never said you can change your orientation or gender. It's impossible, I'm trans, if it were possible, i would have done so. I didn't choose to be trans, i was always like this since i was born.
@ThatsCyrus Okay 1: do a little research before trying to say something. Look for the standard university article called "The transformative power of film" (i tried to post the link, but it didn't work) And 2: I never said you can change your orientation or gender. It's impossible, I'm trans, if it were possible, i would have done so. I didn't choose to be trans, i was always like this since i was born. also did you even read my comment? I never said exposure = action. You're arguing against your own imagination. All i said was that seeing things in media makes you begin to think of it as normal, it also causes you to be more empathetic. This is why diversity in film is so important.
i would like to add something as a vocaloid fan: *vocaloids don't have canon ages* because they're instruments, but rather the producers change their ages depending on the context of the song, so hatsune miku isn't canonically 16, her age changes depending on the song ^^ i get why there's this misconception because it's been a problem in the vocaloid community itself, so i wanted to clear it out!!
Agree, however I think for songs like that one Miku uno song where Miku is clearly drawn as a child, then it’s wrong. Songs like Sad Girl Sex by Deco*27, Miku is drawn as an adult, so it’s okay. I don’t like the “Miku is canonically ageless”, because what it means is you can draw Miku as an adult or as a child, not “you can sexualize children because Miku isn’t _technically_ a child, even if you draw her as one”.
as a kid, i had been in the proshipping community. there were so many adults (and kids parroting them) who kept saying "if it's okay in fiction, it should be okay in real life" and a lot of proshippers are in denial of this problem. so many say "victims never object to proshipping, so it's okay" it's egregious
As a child, I almost got into that community. Almost. The first fanfic I found was extremely brutal. And I just sat there like "holy shit this isn't okay actually". And I never went back
I’m sorry that this has happened to you, but the problem does not lie within proshippers or the content itself, you were manipulated by people who took advantage of you because they are **predators.** There seems to be this narrative going on claiming that all proship adults are groomers and anti adults are safe, and this is **far from the truth**. A child predator is a child predator, regardless if they are a proshipper or not. And I want you to understand this. Believe me, there are plenty of child predators who are also antis as well, and they claim that they are ‘safe adults’ that can be trusted (which is a HUGGGEE red flag). Please be careful and watch out for those people. Predators can be ANYONE, and just because someone is a proshipper DOES NOT MEAN they are a child predator. And just because an adult is an anti, DOESN’T MEAN they are safe to be around. And being in an adult oriented space as a minor is not safe, regardless if it’s proshipping or not. You were manipulated into being in an adult-oriented space, and adults took advantage of you and abused you for that reason.. This is why minors should NEVER, NEVER be in adult spaces. And this is ALSO why minors need to learn internet safety and their parents NEED TO MONITOR THE CONTENT THEY CONSUME, and they shouldn’t be on popular social media platforms. Because unfortunately, there are dangerous predators **everywhere…** Overall, I wish you nothing but the best.. and I’m sorry this happened to you. but please look at this from a different angle. For your own safety..
About the Miku thing, I feel like you’re allowed to make sexual songs with her if you make it very clear she’s an adult. For example, Rabbit hole sexualized her as an adult and that’s okay but Mimikunawata nice try sexualizes her as a child which is bad
I think the problem comes when you divide yourself into pro and anti so you're blind to critique Because im very okay with shipping for the most part but there are times it crosses the line and goes to into justifying anything because it's fiction and i can't stand for that.
There’s no shot someone used Mizuki Akiyama to say “Fiction doesn’t affect reality.” My guy, people have stated their story literally saved their life. Are you insane? Like sure, rage bait, I’m probably falling for it, but I’m not commenting on their post and giving them traction so it’s fine. I wanna be upset about it.
fiction doesnt affect reality in the way people think, ur not gonna murder people cuz someone in fiction did it. Our brains can desperate fiction from reality. It can def inspire you to become a better person tho
I hate proshippers because they CONSTANTLY misuse the “fiction doesn’t affect reality” argument. “Fiction doesn’t affect reality” used to mean “you can’t blame a kids show or a video game for someone becoming a pedo or a murderer, that is on them.” Now it means “I’m allowed to sexualize kids and the idea of rape because it’s just fiction!” I hate it here.
6:15 i love how “cnc” yaoi is so popular and the clear abuse is disregarded as “veiled love” all the while 177013 became a known meme BECAUSE of the content. emergence even has basically the same plot as jinx, not for the entire story but there is a portion. people still don’t see sexual abuse towards men as sexual abuse and this social phenomenon is a great example of that.
YES. Deadass it feels like nobody knows what CNC means anymore, a CNC book doesn’t mean reading a character get raped, it means reading a character roleplay a rape scene, still something I’d avoid like the plague, but at least THAT is CNC. EDIT: ALSO THIS!! It feels like a HUGE tell whenever someone can only read “BL” rape, like really? It’s also with that “I can make him worse” in reference to that “I can fix him” stuff, both are bad mentalities but “I can make him worse” is so focused on letting a man dwell in his own pain (you know, “he’s abusive but he has a bad past!!” Stuff) rather than helping him out of it, literally making him a worse person instead of getting the man the help he needs. “Bad boy” books are so focused on sexualizing a man’s pain that causes him to be abusive, which then sexualized a woman’s pain.
Bro i needed this these people will not listen. they are excusing their mental coping methods by saying they’re a proshipper. which also says “i don’t want to change these habits” leading to this mentality as adults. and before i hear “oh they will change as adults” not everyone will automatically switch out of their YEARS of habits and could genuinely lead to predatory behavior.
Fiction doesn’t affect reality… until it does Edit: Looking back on this comment it feels kind of vague so I’m gonna say what I meant. Even though some fictional violent things don’t affect reality like shooter games you can’t just say because one fictional thing doesn’t affect reality doesn’t means everything doesn’t affect reality that’s why trigger warnings and filters exist to keep kids and people who aren’t mentally ok enough to see those things from consuming it like me I’m very sensitive to gore and animal abuse so knowing how it affects me I try staying away from it and that’s how fiction affects me it’s not how you probably get affected but we all have are own triggers because that’s how humans work you can make gore and depictions of animal abuse just don’t indorse it clarify it’s bad and to not simulate it and to click off if it makes the viewer uncomfortable
@@therewasnomino No, it doesn't. By that logic, GTA causes more mass shootings, GOT causes more cases of incest, and Coffin of Andy and Leyley makes people eat their parents. And also, by 'proshipping community' you mean 'adult oriented spaces' Well, kids and teens shouldn't be in adult spaces to begin with. Regardless if it is proship or not.
@@chloesnightmaresUGGGHHH don’t get me started on Mel bro. I stopped listening to everything she did and released after the SA allegations, I’m happy she’s getting outed for the creep she is.
On the miku bit, I would like to say many modules have different ages, especially fan made ones. So something like rabbit hole miku is significantly older than base miku
Also, I agree with some stuff from the video and some not, about Hatsune Miku, I get shes 16 (it depends since in some medias her age is 18 like bunny hole) but when you look at her she looks unrealistic, big eyes and small nose. People call sailor mars a waifu and shes 16 but if you just look at her she has big eyes and a small nose. Anime character's dont look realistic. Granted people who make waifu teir lists arent as degenerate as proshippers. It's just not real, I don't get tryna apply real world logic to fiction. Just wondering ur take on it
@@RainGamma I 100% agree with you. The only thing I may disagree on is the "fiction is fiction" bit because the whole "2000 year old loli " bit But as long as the character isn't a prepubesant kid/clearly without any doubt supposed to be depicted as underaged, I don't see much issue with it
@ Well the opinions may be slightly biased as I play blue archive and a H game called Black Souls, but in my mind ik I’d never do anything bad to kids. To be honest as long as lolicons realize that sexualizing kids irl is bad I have no problem.
@ Also i think that people who think “you cant find fiction disgusting or weird cuz its fiction” is wrong cuz I think we should still criticize fiction while having normal conversation about it. However mostly conversation in mainstream mostly boils "You are bad because you consume this type of content." There barely nuances to it.
@ About the fiction is fiction part, best way I can put it is the vast majority of fictional content is made with no intention of being confused with reality, but also I think fiction does effect some parts of reality like for example: you watch an anime and it teaches you to never give up vs like watching a creepypasta, wont turn you into a murderer.
One time I made a post on Tumblr saying that me being anti proship doesn't mean I'm going to harass them. I got a lot of comments of people claiming that me even making the post was harassing them
thats weird bc i still get called proship in part bcs i REFUSE to harrass proshippers. a lot of them are minors, and i think bombarding them with hate will cause more harm than good. also i have untreated PTSD nd some of the stuff those people post can be legitimately triggering, but i guess i should value having a moral high ground over my own mental health?
@@actualgoblinthere's a block button, so use it. Like you said and I agree, there are people who are comforted by seeing that kind of content. As a person with high amounts of childhood trauma and PTSD, I understand how looking at triggering topics can be a form of therapy, though it appears morally depraved because the actions portrayed, in a vacuum, are morally depraved. The reason people willingly look at that content is not because they live in a vacuum where it pleases them, but because it comforts them about what happened to them unwillingly by being relatable. The reason why the human brain latches onto what's relatable is dubiously interesting, but complex. TLDR: If you are not the target audience, it is not for you and don't engage.
LOL now THAT'S a lie! Anti-Sippers literally threaten to murder minors who ship teens their own age, with pages of documented proof of this already available and curated from screenshots of Discord, Tik Tok and Tumblr messages among others. This is not "criticism", you disgusting puritan freaks literally threaten to murder people and bait vulnerable people into suicide. But hey, that's what happens when you're a community of adult groomers pretending to "protect children" the same way Christian priests do.
9:15 Hatsune Miku doesnt have a canonical age, the age is ALWAYS up to interpretation. The age 16 should be treated more of a default setting than an actual age, Miku is by design a blank slate. There are many songs with Miku being different ages than 16. Please don't spread misinformation that causes people to be harassed, it's a shitty thing to do, especially since it's so easy to look it up.
if you actually look it up it does say sixteen and also even if it is just a default state it means most people when they see sexualised hatsune miku they will be seeing her as a sixteen year old girl
To add onto this, Hatsune Miku's original design is 16, sexualizing that is not okay. She was created to be 16 for marketing purposes, appealing to idol fans. I have 2 examples of Miku designs on complete opposite ages: Reboot Miku looks around 12 years old. And Blue Planet includes a version of Miku which is obviously way older, maybe around 80?
as someone pursuing a career in psychology (specifically as a ß€× Therapist) i need people here to understand something very important just as we have physiological responses to stimuli that isnt conducive to what we _actually_ find sixμally arousing, we ALSO experience arousal to ideas/concepts that may excite us ߀×μally, but we do not want to perform those actions in real life for any number of reason for the individual This conversation seems centered on people who do not understand this distinction, and frankly people who arent well educated in psychology. I feel it is important to remember the distinction brought up. Especially since I see multiple people in this comment section condemning healthy expressions of sexuality through art for being too problematic, which in of itself has roots in some problematic emotions (most likely being emblematic of cultural pressure)
the problematic emotions in question, being the pursuit to appear "normal" and general ß£× negativity And no, there is no moral conundrum for consuming, or even enjoying, adult material with problematic themes. We already accept this on the front of horror films, violence, and all the battles we as a society had to fight to drop the Haye's Code just so we could depict guns on screen in the early 1900's The only time there is a moral conundrum is when you decide to attach behavior used with fictional characters, towards real people instead. Which doesn't only apply to suggestive content either. Acting like it's exclusive to suggestive content is dishonest and not conducive to reality.
yeah, I wish I can send links backing you up but youtube hates links, this video is just filled with misinformation also, she's a hypocrite, she made a video months ago about her liking shipping killer stalkers together, which, based on her own logic, will influence her
@ethanissupercool7168 I was not aware, as this is the only video I've seen from them Misinformation is incorrect, at least imo. They seem misguided but genuinely want to help people, but do not have the education or information to understand what it is they're talking about. And don't recognize the rhetoric they're using is archaic and shown to be problematic. Especially when we look back on modern history and how authoritative bodies tried to follow this rhetoric of "fiction begets harm" to its logical conclusion _gestures towards the Haye's Code_
*slaps this post* This! I'm aroace tho I happen tend to get off to explicit material surrounding mind control that if it was real I would be disgusted by happening. Because for me, the appeal of the fantasy is letting someone else be in control.
This. I've struggled $3x negativity in the past (and I'm still quite the prude even now, but on a personal opinion type-level) as an ace person, and hating on shipping in general due to not understanding it. I've just now starting to try and be more open and honest with myself about f3tishes or fictional characters that I like (haha I hate typing this, but I'm doing so in the chance someone else finds it relatable). (additionally, the aforementioned interests of mine are so painfully mild and normal compared to any of the problematic content mentioned in the video, that it's honestly pathetic) And yet now, I see the way online fandoms behave in regards to anything deemed weird or problematic, and it seems impossible that I'll ever defeat my shame and embarrassment on these topics. Not that I think shame or embarrassment is bad or must be defeated, but rather it seems even the realm of pure fiction - a place that should be a safe space for expression - is there now a sort of strict enforcement of a moral code you must follow, lest ye be marked as evil or something.
Fiction, in my opinion, is a great way to simulate uncomfortable and immoral situations without making them happen in the real world to document. That being said, it's only great if the said situations are depicted accurately and as close to actual/natural human reaction as possible and most importantly NOT romanticized or sexualized. That's disgusting, not relatable and frankly a slap to those who experienced said situations. 'It's okay, because it's fiction!' It is not. Just because your (future) actions might not be influenced by it, doesn't mean that others won't be influenced. Also, the more normalized such fiction becomes, the more acceptance it will garner from society, thus leading more and more people to commit unethical actions, while seeing nothing wrong. This needs to stop. To everyone who'd like to add something or give their own two cents to this comment, feel free to share your opinion, I like seeing other's perspectives :)
SAME. I have some fucked up characters, there are some that are human traffickers, murderers, stalkers, and pimps (but let’s be honest, pretty close to the first), but they are NEVER romanticized. The shit they do is NEVER sexualized, never shown as glamorous except in their eyes alone. I have more morally grey characters as well, two in particular are partners in crime who murder pedophiles and rapists (as they are former victims of that). I still don’t glamorize it, and the two act as foils, while one sees it as fun and even sexual, the other finds it necessary and is disgusted by the other character at times. It isn’t that hard to show that this stuff isn’t supposed to be sexual or romantic or glamorous, a notorious one being mafias, which had been SO butchered by romance media that it makes me want to charge headfirst into a wall (as someone who spends an unhealthy amount of time researching my favorite/most interesting times in history, like prohibition er).
Thank you, you put exactly what I had been thinking into words (whereas before it had just been an incoherent Thing in my head) This is the first comment I saw that I fully, completely agree with. Fiction affects reality, reality affects fiction, those are facts of life. However, if a person is healthily able to distinguish the two, I believe they should use fiction to explore things that they would NEVER want or consider attractive in reality. A very tame example would be that a lot of people like romance novels with jealous boyfriends, when real life jealous bfs are toxic and overbearing and not fun to date at all! When you KNOW THE DIFFERENCE, I think it is possible to let yourself explore more taboo things privately. Thought crimes don’t exist :)
Let's just put it this way, if fictional depictions of things prompted people to do that stuff in the real world, the violent crime rate compared to the sale of video games would not look like that.. Fiction doesn't fully represent individual who consumes nor the ones who creates it.We should still criticize fiction while having normal conversation about it. However mostly conversation in mainstream mostly boils "You are bad because you consume this type of content." There barely nuances to it. If its fictional, then its fictional. It's not real. Now, this isn't to say fictional things can't have real world repercussions, but that is on the people who act on it or choose to use it as justification, not on the work of fictions very existence.
In my opinion, if we’re talking problematic relationships in media, I don’t think it’s harmful AS LONG AS it isn’t available to minors. I don’t think any adult would actually be influenced by these stories. The real problem is when teenagers get their hands on content with questionable morals.
There's a lot of art that personally squicks me out, and I think it's completely fair to point out that it's pretty messed up when people come away from media thinking something egregious is okay. But here's my problem: Buying fully into this belief that Media exclusively serves to imprint a fully formed set of values on walking blank slates, 1: does a profound disservice to the complex way we interpret and internalize what we're exposed to. John Carpenter made "THEY LIVE" as a commentary on Capitalism for bigoted idiots to go "The Rich Aliens are Jews Actually!!" or like- Fight Club or Verhoeven's Starship Troopers being taken at face value as the very things they were intended to ridicule. 2. Turns all of art into this weird, sterile test of whether something is Morally Didactic enough. In short, I think it's just *complicated.* Too complicated for me to just go "Problematic Art is A-OK!!" without some example biting me in the ass. I think the best example of what I'm worried about is the response to the Isabel Fall story "Attack Helicopter". A closeted trans woman writes this raw, ugly, complicated story about gender and violence and depersonalization; to an almost unilateral "This is a fake troll pretending to be trans, and even she is trans, Having Ugly Complicated Feelings You Need To Get Out As Art is Self Harm, Actually." Like, I know it's not as simple as "Ough you should just Know Better than to let fiction affect you, dumb teen!", but human beings are messy and complicated, and sometimes art is a space for The Exact Things the real lived world CAN'T accomodate. Like at what point does this impulse to Protect People from corrupting material turn into Tipper Gore going after violent video games & gangster rap? To say NOTHING of how this specific impulse to protect impressionable youths from exploitation (an impulse I completely support, let me be clear) metastasize to sh*t like "well your brain isn't REALLY mature until you're 25, 30, 35, 40" and Problematic Height Gaps. I see a lot of this stuff coming from young, progressive people; but like when I hear teenagers online invent this new definition of p*dophilia that can exist between a 27 and a 23 year old; and then a couple months later some Republican lawmaker comes out using that same vocabulary to declare that Existing As Visibly Queer In Public is abusive to whoever sees you, I'm sorry but I HAVE to call it as I see it!! This conversation could be about SO MANY things: • The way the internet- hell, culture Just In General, has shut down age-group focused experiences and forced media literate adults and impressionable kids to share every media ecosystem. • The way we're only willing to look at art as Expressly Instructional now, Media Literacy going from "understanding this media was made by someone for reasons" to "Does This Media Meet The Good Moral Standard?" • The way- and I'm not blaming The Parents, or The Viewer- that our society Does Not Give People the time nor room nor inclination to engage with ANYTHING outside of Monkey See Monkey Do. When generations of kids are growing up trained to read snippets of texts to Glean The Right Data for a Standardized Test instead of engaging and thinking critically, when we live in a society where media is one of the few things left To Do in a post-third space, increasingly isolated, society; yeah our ability to engage with media in a healthy way Has Been Bludgeoned. But the conversation is never about any of this. It's taken as a given that we're supposed to just choose between Consuming Safe Moral Pablum or Being Instantly Brainwashed By Anything Else. Could the films of John Waters or Cronenberg, or Punk Music exist today; when the progressive 16-25 year old crowd is taking the same "No Filth!" approach to art as the fascist morons blubbering about Degenerate Art? I'm sorry, but we aren't failing society by letting anyone ever see something gross or unconscionable, we're failing it by refusing to teach people to engage critically with anything. Furthermore, I think it's ludicrously blithe to reduce people who use this stuff to cope as Too Stupid/Damaged To Think For Themselves. Again- it's Complicated- I'm SURE there are exceptions; but I've seen so many people go "Yea I consume/make Gross Art similar to Some Crap I've Experienced, I do not practice anything portrayed in it." just for throngs of people to go "Don't care + Self Harm + Gooner". It's preposterous. TL;DR: I'm sorry, but Skill Isue. Skills society has Failed to teach almost any of us, Skill Issue that is not a moral failing of the reader, but Skill Issue. Perverts & abusers shouldn't be pushing this stuff on a general audience, and people who make gross ugly art shouldn't have to live in fear of The Most Impressionable Teen on Earth taking pieces of personal catharsis as manifestos.
Did you read my mind??? Bc literally. There comes a point when it goes too far, but potraying something awful in media is not glorifying it. Writing, reading, drawing, and consuming strange er0t1ca doesn't mean you're going to enact it in real life. Making vent art of something you went through don't mean you're excusing abusers. We need to learn that not everyone dipicts things they think is ok or moral. I may simp over Wanderer from genshin or Scar from wuwa, but if they were real would i still like them?? No!! Fiction is meant for us to explore odd or messed up things without putting anyone in danger.
Oh my god, this might be one of the best comments I've ever read. I don't know who you are but this is extremely well-done and well put. It always boils down to media literacy, i believe. Consumption of art where the main focal point and idea is something messed up like, let's say Dennis Cooper's disturbing, grimy LGBT horror literature is particularly prohibited to be consumed because of moral reasons or what-not, we have failed art. Consumption of art or media analysis has become a weird contest of who can be into the least "problematic" piece of art out there.
@@echoesouth exactly, this is why people have started calling it purity culture. Its very literally an obsession with being as morally pure as possible. Art depicting dark topics is bad/impure so anyone who makes and interacts with dark art is also bad/impure, and anyone who’s friends with someone who interacts with dark art is also bad/impure. Its social contagion shit and it is so intensely toxic. Anti shippers want to purify society, and they dont understand that a pure society is impossible and attempting to make one has only ever gone very badly. If you want to improve society you have to support victims, prevent people from becoming abusers in the first place(by supporting them), change the culture and society that enables and cultivates so much abuse, look at the root causes for problems instead of blindly attacking the symptoms.
With the Miku part, Miku is more of a template and people base different characters off of her. (Rabbit hole). But there’s some who sexualize her 16 year old avatar rather than a character based on her template
There was a phase where I kept getting proshippers on my FYP for a while. It was awful. They were trying to paint themselves as the victims when they were held accountable for promoting this kind of thing. And they always water it down, like "a proshipper is just someone who doesn't harass others for their ships".
@@kittkat-rl8fu did you completely skip the beginning of this video? definitions change, and it does not mean that now. the people who say that are using the terminology as a scapegoat to water down their heinous actions.
@bombs4w4y I know definitions change but why are the group were talking about is still using the "being proship = anti harrassment" The creator used an example where the lgbt community took the word and changed the definition. It's exactly what people who are against problematic ships are doing, changing the definition of a word to fit their message
@ the thing is, proshippers use the new definition. the only time they mention the old definition is to excuse their behavior and escape being held accountable. its nothing but a scapegoat to them, any idiot could see that. its not just a matter of 'anti-proshippers' changing a definition to make it conflicting, PROSHIPPERS did that and wanted to backpedal in order to water down their actions, just like how op mentioned. Not even to mention, being the original definition of a proshipper isnt good either! its being complacent to pedophile, rapist, etc. dynamics under the gaze of it all being "just fiction"
When I first found out about the Hadink situation I didn’t realize how bad it was so I googled some of their art and…I was shaking and throwing up for hours I can never unsee that disgusting crap 😭😭
My ex turned out to be proshipper and when i confronted them about interacting with person who has drawn cp on their twitter they defended it.... that was the day they turned in my ex and im still disgusted i was with someone like that
Calling it "drawn cp" has always felt weird, Like yeah, it's disgusting and definitely something to be suspicious of but it feels just, insulting to compare it to actual csem
@@allinairhanson6886 There is another term for it when it's drawn art. "Lolicon" when it involves an underage female characters and "shotacon" when it involves an underage male characters
@@RainGamma Fictional or not, it's porn of a child character, and therefore feeds REAL predators with more material until they can get their hands on actual CP
I do wanna bring up that sexually explicit content is aimed at adults and that the taboo *is* what makes problematic relationships in fiction attractive. A show aimed at teenagers like Pretty Little Liars should not romanticize such relationships, dynamics or behaviours because it is partly what shapes younger folks understanding of human relationships as you said. Pornography or any age restricted content though can engage with these dynamics because they are a way for adults to explore fantasies that excites them, same way BDSM does. When a dynamic happens between two consenting adults or within the realm of fiction aimed at adults it is hard to make the point that this should reflect badly on a human being morals without diving into thought-policing. An adult fantasizing about situations where sex is had without consent isn't an adult that wants the situation to happen, it *is* an adult who finds exploring the ideas in the safety of their minds satisfying. It is a value that I hold fantasies written on paper or drawn digitally should not reflect on a human being morals, because then the pages and pages of murder/torture fantasies written by teenagers AND adults everywhere would be incriminating and I relate to that. P.S I want to remind people though that by Federal law in Canada any depiction of minors real or fictional in any sort of medium from written, drawn, still images or video form is considered ch*ld p**nography and the possession and/or distribution of it is a criminal offense. Even if you agree with me this argument won't get your far in court when you're charged because of your All-Might x Deku porn. It is stated clear as day.
On that PS While it's technically true, there have been barely any cases where someone has been arrested for that kinda stuff, even much more extreme stuff, and plenty of websites that host it don't have any legal troubles with that The only cases I have heard of where they were arrested for it is when it led to an investigation that found actual csem
i completely agree with everything you said , but i need to point out how when you said you don't like Miku being sexualized because she's 16 that is FALSE and i'm so tired of people making this point 😭 with Vocaloids / Vocal Synths the entire purpose is for them to be ANYTHING you imagine because they are INSTRUMENTS. that includes age , gender , race , overall design , and other such things that are changed to help portray the songs artistry. for example in the song Rabbit Hole where Miku is clearly meant to be an adult and has her own unique design seperate from the Original Miku and i will say there's also plenty of Vocaloid songs where they portray the character as elementary school age and then continue to sexualize them which then IS wrong it's on a song by song basis because each one has it's own characteristics applied to the Vocal Synth ^^
I just realized why I like her videos it's how she deals with arguments she deals with them in a similar way as my foster brother, which isn't a insult its a compliment because they both have a very matter a fact way of bringing up points and that's good although it does make people you shouldn't sugar coat your beliefs on a situation or idea
As a very active Ao3 user, I stand for what it all is, and I disagree with all the anti-shipping rhetoric. To start off, if this is about non-general media like fan fiction or fan content of any kind, then please fuck off if you don't like it, but unless this is about someone like Shadman, who has done questionable art concerning real people (Keemstar's kid), then go on about your day and ignore it. I think this just boils down to a tagging (trigger warnings) problem in general. Like in a more decent world, most media would have tags, but that is not ours, so just curate your own experience to avoid unnecessary grievances or attacking artists by the disguise of critique.
Okay I agree 100% but the Miku example is wrong, if people simp over a teenage/ younger version of Miku it’s bad, but Miku has no canon age, if they simp over for example rabbit hole Miku which is over 18, it’s fine! I don’t mean to sound harsh or anything I just want to make sure you knew! :) also amazing video!
I agree with some stuff from the video and some not, about Hatsune Miku, I get shes 16 (it depends since in some medias her age is 18 like bunny hole) but when you look at her she looks unrealistic, big eyes and small nose. People call sailor mars a waifu and shes 16 but if you just look at her she has big eyes and a small nose. Anime character's dont look realistic. Granted people who make waifu teir lists arent as degenerate as proshippers. It's just not real, I don't get tryna apply real world logic to fiction
While fictional stories can effect reality it's not In the way you think. If an story emotionally or intellectually resonates with someone it's possible that person may change their behavior or beliefs. But liking something bad in fiction does not mean that person would like it in reality. Otherwise every Grand theft Auto player would be hardened criminals.
Exactly. Its only a problem if bad behavior comes to be seen as high status, like when celebrities or other famous people promote things like that as good.
@@itz_blue_hairur logic: shooting ppl in gta DOESN’T make you want to shoot ppl irl, but liking lolis DOES make u want to touch kids irl? why’s that? both are fictional. just because u find one more gross than the other doesn’t mean u can have double standards
There is also proof that indulging in a paraphilla makes said paraphilla worse and more out of hand (just like addiction). But proshippers don’t want to talk about that part. Theres a HUGEEE difference between someone delving into a dark topic and portraying it, and a person blatantly romanticizing it. Yes, it can be a ‘coping mechanism’ for victims. But it’s unhealthy, it’s a form of self harm and it only makes you feel worse. I turned to content like proshipping at age 12 when I was being gr00med, and ended up getting gr00med AGAIN by a proshipper. It only made me more traumatized and feel more disgusting, and it also made me stay with my gr00mer because the media I consumed was so common I thought it was okay. Proshipping is NOT A HEALTHY COPING MECHANISM. While I can see why some victims, especially young ones, turn to it, it’s not healthy. Yes you can explore your trauma through fiction, but trying to romanticize or normalize it is never okay for you, or anyone else.
Same here, I “coped” with trauma and emotions by beating the shit out of myself, but thank god I only had squishy parts of my skull instead of getting groomed like people going into pro shipping end up. I’m so sorry about what happened to you, proshipping communities enable predators so much it’s insane. Victims on a silver platter and nobody in the community wants to talk about it.
8:20 this is why so many predators think literal 13 year olds look 18.. as a victim at 13 being told my body definitely looked like an adult YES THIS IS ONE OF THE BIGGEST REASONS other than the fact they're stupid and refuse to listen to those points
I don't agree with consuming fiction will make that seep into the real world, like for the example for hatune miku, shes 16 (depends what media you look at cuz her age is not canon) but also she just doesn't look realistic and I'm talking about her eyes and small nose. Also it's just not real, you gotta have a mental illness to look at that then think its ok to do something to a 16yr irl. Also I'm sorry that a horrifying thing like that happened to u
17:10 THANK YOU someone had to say this. I have been looking into drama around for example people who have paraphilia. And they to have a problem, while they should not be attack, ITS NOT A GOOD COPING MECHANISM! Go to any therapist and ask them that, if they disagree, they probably aren't that good!
I feel bad that my comment became the most popular when all it was was a TLDR. And then my best friend saw it. 😢😢😢 But yeah. Storytelling has always been about messaging. It's one of the fundamentals. Almost every story has a lesson. It's just how stories work. Sometimes stories can have unintentional lessons due to things being so normalized. As a storyteller, you have to be conscious of that.
Fiction will always affect reality, because "Fiction is fiction until someone makes it", this is true. Fiction will one day become reality, and fiction is our culture. On what we build on, because without fiction, there is no creativity. The fact of the matter is, that fiction is culture, on what we build on, but culture doesn't always mean fiction.
Fiction affects reality, always has been sadly. I just hope it affect the world in a good way as much as it can. And I hope that any community never has a Slenderman or Poly incident.
I was 18 when I graduated high school and moved away for college. As it just so happened, my almost 40 year old (at the time) brother lived really close to my college and had a spare room that he was offering to me for less than any dorm. Plus, if I moved in with him, I could bring my cat with me while I wouldn't be able to if I moved into a dorm. It seemed like the perfect deal! As soon as I moved in, he found out how much I like anime. He started looking up anime and found a fandom phrase that was pretty common back then (2014). "Incest is wincest", to be specific. He was also a porn addict, citing it as his most valuable source of information on human biology. ... I can't stand to be in the same room as him anymore.
I really hate the proship antiship discourse. Because I do agree that lolicon and incest really don’t need to be in popular media as frequently as they are. I desperately hunt down anime with adult casts because I am so sick of seeing sexualized teenagers. At the same time, I think it’s a bad idea to outright ban anything that romanticizes questionable content, whether it come from bad writing, the romanticizing being the point and it being like a horror movie scenario, or something or other. And the discourse always just boils down into ‘you’re harassing me’ and ‘you’re all a bunch of pdfs’. Consensual non consent gets dragged into it a lot. It think its complicated why people enjoy it really. But most of it stems around matters of control. Guilt, Christian guilt is one aspect of it. In a culture where sex is such a taboo, sometimes it’s easier to enjoy it if you don’t feel like you’re fully in control of it. Otherwise it just ends with some big, guilty feelings. And of course with cnc you can say no and stop at any point, it’s just roleplay, but it takes that feeling of guilt away. On another hand, sometimes it’s more about being able to say no or stop at any point and knowing you have power in this situation. Knowing that you have full control and that, in this scenario, you aren’t saying to stop because you’re enjoying yourself. Alternatively if a person is in the active role, it’s probably because it’s nice having so much control in the situation, and knowing that any other party has so much trust in you. Personally, I love being in situations where I am fully control to dote on and take care of a person, even if they don’t necessarily want me to. It makes me feel good to demand that my partner eat goes and eats a sandwich even when their depression monkey says that the sandwich is the enemy. I love when my partner says I’m allowed to make them take care of themself, even if they’re upset and stomping their feet and saying they don’t want to. I know on their end, it centers around a lot of unconditional love and care, even when they’re having a tantrum and are behaving at their worst. So when it comes to fictional abuse stories, it kinda gets complicated for me. Cause when I read these stories or pick up games themed around romanticized abuse, it feels more like cnc between me and the author than it does between the characters. Like the author is going ‘I’m gonna show you this really fucked up story, but if you wanna leave now, that’s okay.’ And then I go ‘For real? Lemme see that.’ And then I read and kick my legs and go ‘Wow, that was really fucked up!’ and clap because this is what we both agreed to upon starting. But this only works if the story has trigger warnings or at least a tagging system. The trigger warning is like our handshake agreeing that this content is really fucked up, and even if it’s being romanticized in the story, we both know it’s fucked up. We’re exploring the dynamic purely in a fictional sense. It’s like a horror movie. Ya stuck horror into the genre, I know what’s coming. I came for the horror and the thrills. When I watch tv show and it suddenly just throws in a graphic sexual assault scene and I didn’t know that the story was going to be about that, that’s no longer fun. We did not come to agreement on this. You shoulda warned me, big man. If they at least don’t romanticize it and portray it as abuse, then I get what they’re doing. I would still have liked a heads up that it would be coming. If they don’t warn me, and they still romanticize it, then now I’m worried about the author and how the author feels on these matters. But that’s just how I experience media, and I know that not everybody experiences it like that.
Finally something that seems just a little bit more developed than the rest of the comments here. You explained your reasoning in full depth, had nuance, and I may or may not disagree, but I love that you said it's not universal. Kudos to you.
Thank you for the nuance, this seems to be missing in this comment section. A lot of this discourse comes dangerously close to censorship which is not a good thing.
God i wanna tattoo this comment on my forehead I absolute *despise* loli/shota + incest and the culture around it, but the whole anti vs proshipper discourse has Zero nuance There are irl consequences to fiction, but that too depends on many other aspects (Plus there can be a *lot* of ableism on both sides)
I’m of the belief that it’s important to know where you draw the line. While I do subscribe to the anti beliefs of incest and lolisho/pdf are never okay, everything else is definitely in a grey area like you say. While I draw the line at those things and cannot respect anyone who doesn’t, I’m not gonna go out of my way to harass people who do. But if they come to me first (which does happen) I’m gonna block them at the very least. I follow an account on instagram that posts proshipper accounts not to send people to harass them but to raise awareness and basically serve as a block list. They have a strong anti harassment policy and only encourage individuals to block the accounts.
Life is like a series of waves created by the things we experience; we're like a small lake, and even a single bad event can ripple through it, shaping everything, even if we try to overlook it.
this is always hard to argue in text but anyway liking bad things in fiction does not indicate you like it in real life, else we'd have plenty to worry about from people playing violent video games Like, they are deeply enjoying that fictional violence, but because they properly distinguish it from real violence in their head, they aint gonna get actually violent same applies with other messed up fiction, universally
THISS... like i don't even interact with too much "problematic media" but i do find myself in related spaces. One question I've always had is why people are okay with murder being depicted in fiction, often glorified or romanticised, but they draw the line at proshipping. It just feels oddly puritan, somehow?
Bruh the whole "fiction doesn't affect reality" argument went out the window when a Brony from Indianapolis committed a MASS SHOOTING over Applejack. ALSO I actually got into a fight over this on Tumblr, being the cesspool that it was, after making a post talking about an artist who shipped two twin brother characters. I made it purely to warn people triggered by such content to block them in advance, but a lot of proshippers still got made at me and two separate people wrote an entire book about how I was so much more toxic for "kink-shaming" when fetishizing incest desensitizes people to real cases of incest and the harm it causes because it's constantly portrayed as "just a kink." Their only argument? "It's just fiction. No one's getting hurt." I expected nothing else, and when I asked them about it, they had nothing to say.
The mass shooter was already mentally ill before. Just because he got attached to Applejack doesn't mean he randomly became a mass shooter, he probably would have ended up as one even if he never became a Brony and was attached to Applejack. This situation is a lot more complex than just getting obsessed and attached over a fictional character from MLP. Becoming a brony = mass shooter.
@tempestpbkh Yeah, no kidding, the point is there are still a lot of people who will take things too far and do something like this over a fictional character or something out of the media. Not to mention all the studies done on things like porn addictions, child predation/grooming, and how communities of proshippers give these freaks a place to congregate and be validated and exposes very young people to wildly unhealthy relationship dynamics to look up to.
@ Then why are fictional pieces so often credited for pushing social change? Like "Silent Spring," in 1962. It was about how DDT pesticides were killing birds, and the book did a LOT to get people to start getting up to make a difference before it was too late. Yeah, the dude had a lot of other things going on, that's absolutely true, but he ultimately was influenced by fiction. NON-VIOLENT fiction at that. And if you want a really common example, just look at Otaku culture. Those people are so obsessed with hentai and shitty fanservice anime that it's ruined their social skills and makes them unbearable to be around. Not on quite the same level as a mass shooting, thank god, but it's much more wide-spread and is pretty concerning.
@ Can't tell if this was replied to me or not, but I wasn't disagreeing, I just thought that you were just blaming it entirely on one fictional character from a show. Also, with Otaku culture, they were likely anti-social or socially awkward beforehand that is how it is usually, and once again mentally ill. Sorry for the confusion if this reply was directed towards me.
"Fiction doesn't affect reality" Everything on the internet affects reality. This can be positive but also negative effects, which is important to take into account. When we tell you (the proshipper) that your content affects reality, we don't insinuate that your media is the only thing that affects reality, because everything on the internet affects it, it's all about HOW it affects reality.
of course fiction affects reality, but the problem here is asserting that engaging with problematic content outside of explicitly negative contexts will somehow lead to people committing those actions that assertion is literally just made up, academic conjecture proved this wrong almost three decades ago and we've only gotten more articulate as to how this is the case Saying anything besides agreement on that front is like trying to refute the acceleration of gravity on Earth in the middle of physics class
@@stargirIll be more specific on how im wrong, because it's been long debunked (since the 80s) that media is a causal force behind people committing taboo actions/breaking the law
I agree with most of the video, but not all fictional media glorifying some bad behavior causes it's audience to do said behavior. For example, time and time again studies show that consumers of violent media, especially games, aren't more likely to commit violence. Now as for why some views and behaviors are picked up by audiences and some aren't probably makes for a fascinating video. Is it a lack of counter-acting media? Is it because everyone knows violence is bad? Or is it something else? My guess would be that it's mainly that fictional media only has a "soft" influence on your opinions, which is only able to significantly form or change beliefs when you didn't have strong opinions on that topic beforehand.
like I have a strong opinion since there's stuff in fiction I like but is def not okay irl, but I'm able to understand it's not real. There's a game called black souls and it's a very good story but a lot of ppl don't like it cuz of lolis and it has grape in it (which the game never justifies it and its a h game)
Another good example of fiction affecting reality is the Nicholas White case; he was trapped in an elevator for two days in 1999, and because of the publicity he received, TV shows started basing episode plots on what happened to him, glorifying it drastically (even to the point he stopped doing interviews in 2011 because people kept laughing at him); I also got trapped in an elevator when I was 12 and that's left me traumatized since. A bit over a year later, my teacher assigned that as a prompt to me and she didn't know it actually happened to real people even though she was old enough to have heard about it at the time it happened, she thought of it as just "a way to spend time with someone/" I did get a new writing prompt later (about how I cope after traumatic events) but the damage had already been done
I think most of your points were really well put at the first half of the video, though i’m not sure this is the best way to go about art in life as a whole. I think socially inept & unaware people are everywhere and sadly, you can’t control them, the most you can do is correct them and leave them alone/block them. There’s lots of people who have different ways of coping & different ways of expressing their love for the world and some of it comes out in really weird ways, don’t get me wrong. i’m not here to say the proshipping community is good, it most of the time just isn’t at all. What i’m trying to say is there’s people out there that are respectful, loving, peaceful & mature about their odd attractions, even if the loudest of paraphiles/proshippers are admittedly very hopelessly lost in the human experience. The second half of the video to me came off a bit more harsh, like people should be bullied for something weird about them, and while i do understand pushing a random person who’s being rude away, if it’s a friend, I think if theirs respect going both ways, then their should be either healthy discussion or no discussion depending on what’s best for the relationship. Wishing you the best, i know how weird the world and life is!
2:30 So, I'm not even a proshipper and all that stuff but I feel that even if we don't like that stuff it's better to use the correct definitions, being that proshipper actually means "Pro fanfiction", like they are refering to not caring about other people do if it stays as a thing only in fictionary stuff, so yeah it doesn't mean "Problematic". I read about it, it's more like "I support people doing any kind of art with any kind of character", like a "pro-vegan" or a "pro-choice" but just with fandom stuff ig.
FINALLY BRO. I AM SO SSICK AND TIRED OF PEOPLE SAYING "erm it's just fiction, it's not hurting anybody" LIKE HELLO??? YES IT IS WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUTTTt
I just ignore stuff like this. If they want to consume stuff like this so be it, I only care if they act on it. Anything else is just a waste of ressources. The only time one should care if it gets popular and seen as high status but instead of having a moral freakout one should portray it as low status and disgusting, just as it is in real life. For example: instead of crying for a ban on lolis or morally browbeating people who consume them just send a meme with how they look in real life and that no matter how they will portray themselves as hero in their fiction, in real life they are low status and ugly.
This, I think people will do what they want no matter how I feel, and I’ve accepted that. If they act on it, however, then that’s where I cross the line.
This. Like getting reports on drawn depictions of csem instead of csem is very resource wasteful. Yes, fiction affects reality, but like I feel like you should focus on reality on what harm it causes instead of browbeating. And worse: not so fun fact, not even lolis can be used as an indicator on who offends. It's literally demoralizing. :/
Calling something cringe has always been more effective than calling something bad. I used to consume this stuff, it got bad and I got addicted and while I never went out and raped or groomed, it fucked with the way I perceived victims and downplayed the absolute horror an abusive or stalker partner is. The only proshippers I FW are the ones who thought the label meant “I know these two adult/two teenage characters met like, once, but fuck it their dynamic is interesting.” I don’t care if you like getting pissed on or getting whipped in your own bedroom or an appropriate adult space, as long as you don’t fantasize about pedophilia or rape.
I agree, I mean also I play BA and I finished a game called Black Souls which has lolis in it but I'm not mentally ill and i realize that it's not real and I have my own morals and that crap is wrong irl.
i hate proshippers, but a lot of them are using it as a coping mechanism because they have been traumatized. to some, this coping mechanism is the best one they have so let's not send death threats to them please
dude why are you reading them then. 💀💀 if you're actively searching for the content, and looking through the tags and still reading it despite ALL THE WARNINGS, that seems like you're shooting yourself in the foot bruv
@N30-LUCIF3R I'm not reading them NOW, i was referring to when I was younger and didn't know it was problematic 😭😭 I've consumed so much borderline toxic relationship from c-dramas, mangas, and stuff that it just didn't seemed all that bad. Now I only read toxic relationships when I felt like hating myself and want the fuck up my mental health even more
@@N30-LUCIF3R I mean, I DO still sometimes read toxic relationships but I was referring to when I was younger cuz like, back then I didn't really read the tags and I didn't really know how problematic they were at the time and I read A LOT of it that im pretty much desensitized. Now? im just reading to see how worse it can get and the answer is: it can ALWAYS get worse.
@@Lmao_moood yeah bro you’re just shooting yourself in the foot. all your doing is desensitizing yourself to that content more and over-exposure to it will cause more problems
Thank you for this explanation! I'm online, but not, like, *that* online so i dont think I've really seen pro shipping labeled as such. What i have seen is people condemning it, or saying X person is problematic because they're a pro-shipper. I do think, as someone who is an outsider to this, creators should explain a little bit more when they say someone is problematic because they're a pro-shipper. Like, how do you know that person is a pro-shipper and what specifically have they supported? I think this paints a better picture for audience members who think "well pro shipping could mean anything."
it baffles me how people allow themselves to indulge in such odd things while also letting it seep into their real life. like, I didn't have enough internet restrictions as a kid, I saw some messed up stuff, and yeah it definitely affected me, but I still managed to keep a baseline of like, not bringing that shit to reality at all? like no matter what I saw it was entirely disconnected from everyone I met irl. I get others have different situations maybe making them more susceptible to being affected by things, I just haven't had that experience myself so its harder to understand. while I may occasionally consume media with messed up stuff, no way in hell will it ever be justified in my mind. the moment something like that seeps into someone's real life, they need a damn therapist or SOMETHING.
Hi, recovering porn addict... I feel down that rabbit hole and I have had to rewire my brain to desexualize those around me because for a long time I thought of the people around me in a sexual manor and I hated it. It made me feel disgusting and awful and for people to glorify this stuff is so gross. It makes me want to vomit sometimes.
I haven’t watched this yet but here’s my opinion on proshippers and darkships as a victim: it is genuinely a very good coping mechanism, recommended by mental health professionals, to get out the intrusive thoughts through media/fiction. HOWEVER, posting it online and publically is useless and causes many victims harm. not everyone copes that way. it triggers people. it should be kept private.
I just think this is drama for the sake of drama. I like any kind of horror and gruesome fictional content because of how bad it is. Would I act on it? No. So the problem is...? This makes me remember of certain groups that banned books because they were seen as impure and evil.
the biggest sign that someone doesnt have any real opinions and just regurgitates whatever they read online is not understanding that fiction being able to depict things we wouldnt do in real life is a good thing actually
Idk man, tell that to Neil Gateman when he wrote about a boyfriend sexually harassing his girlfriend. Tell that to the people who draw child porn then go and groom children. Saying that “fiction influences reality” IS an opinion, even if something is a common one. If you’re talking about flawed/incorrect opinions, “The earth is flat” is a very incorrect opinion yet it’s STILL a real opinion. Even RESPECTFUL fiction that shows pedophilia (Lolita) was glamorized and used as justification for real predators. It was shown in fiction, yet pedophilia was a very real thing in real life.
You know, a few years ago I would've complained that shipping anime characters who are canonically underage was fine because most of them act or are treated in a way that isn't consistent with teenagers. However, I was also a fucking teenager, I was stupid as fuck. I didn't actually believe that, I was just a teenager finding other teenagers attractive and pretending I was older than I am online. Now, I completely agree with you. I don't find these children attractive anymore because I'm older than them and attracted to women my own age now.
I Just find this video funny because you’re okay with killing and stalking which contains abusive relationship and I’d technically counts as a dark romance (and a dark ships too) going to far as calling it “my favorite gay couple??” I’m so confused
Also with your point about Miku i slightly disagree and think it depends on the scenario. As someone who had a crush on a 16 year old character that i fell in love with when i was literally 14 (and currently is still in love with as a now 20 year old) My (and many others like me) feelings didn't go away and i understandably wanted to see that character grow like i did. We as humans like to see things like us and understandably we would like to see characters that we've grown attached to grow and change along side us but since they're not alive they can't unless official work or fans age them up. So I believe that if a canonically teenage character is put into an adult situation but is aged up to no longer be a teen and it has been long enough in real life since their first appearance that they would be an adult. It is okay and understandable. And the whole canon age thing also completely disregards things like canon flash forward sequences, non-canon flash forward sequences or creators making non canon aged up versions. Things like *insert characters* all grown up spin-offs or the many season finales where the characters are now shown as adults usually because the audience has grown up. Or let's bring up miku as an example again grandma/old lady Miku But since cannotically for majority of the show they've been underage would you still fault a person for now s3xualizing the adult version?
Also teenage anime character's do often look like adults and this can be proven when showing them to people who have never watched it, so would you automatically fault them for thinking the character is attractive?
Also i shouldn't have to say this but being physically attracted to prepubescent characters or characters made to look prepubescent is 100% wrong always
I agree with some stuff from the video and some not, about Hatsune Miku, I get shes 16 (it depends since in some medias her age is 18 like bunny hole) but when you look at her she looks unrealistic, big eyes and small nose. People call sailor mars a waifu and shes 16 but if you just look at her she has big eyes and a small nose. Anime character's dont look realistic. Granted people who make waifu teir lists arent as degenerate as proshippers. It's just not real, I don't get tryna apply real world logic to fiction
This whole situation reminds me of how my unrestricted access to the internet made me dive into yaoi and i developed a very warped sense of reality of being gay meant and believed how it was portrayed was what it was. (If yall know anything about old school yaoi, yall know how bad it is 😭😭) it wasn’t until someone who drew ships of some characters I liked on instagram called someone out in their asks for having ‘as long as it’s gay it’s okay’ mindset because it wasn’t ok. That’s what made me step back a bit and I was like ‘oh.. OH’ I still think back to that, shits haunting.
I dont care about darker themes in fiction when it isnt fetishization or romanticization. But people dont realize that darkshipping is ALWAYS that, as that is what shipping is entirely. Fiction may not affect reality in the “Reach out and touch your face” way, but it affects reality and reality uses it enough to the point where the type of fiction you enjoy can infact say alot about your interest, fantasies, and if your weird.
i think that the arguement that fiction doesnt affect reality is really stupid because if youre using it as a coping mechanism then its clearly affecting you
are you stupid? something making you feel a certain way isn’t affecting reality, its affecting your feelings. a dead dog in a movie doesnt affect REALITY because it doesnt make an actual dog die, it can however make you feel sad. so is a writer voluntarily making the decision to affect reality by writing a story about a dog being killed, something not condoned in real life? of course not, thatd be stupid. is he choosing to write something that will cause the reader to feel a certain emotion? yes, thats not the same thing.
think about if you’d hold the affecting reality argument to anything besides erotica, do you hate gta for glorifying vehicle theft and making it out to be fun? most likely not unless you are a mom from the 2000s
@@madimew i actually agree with you i think i just phrased my comment wrong,, what i meant to say was that i agree that fiction affects reality in its ability to evoke an emotion so strong of the audience and maybe even affect how they may think about certain things, not their actions,, my bad
might i also add that if say someone were to use shipping as a coping mechanism then yes i think it is affecting them if it makes them feel better about something
Totally unrelated to the overall topic, but I was in the MHA fandom for a while and I'm not sure I ever heard KiriBaku referred to as "Pop Rocks." That's honestly adorable.
One thing that irks me is that while it's still very much terminally online (and I will stand by this), the whole discourse is just an invitation for a lot of bad faith arguments popping from either side. Tons of weird reactionaries on the "pro" side who use people's aversion to loli/shotacon as "the woke West hating on based Japan" as if not wanting to see sexualised fictional children makes you some "triggered sjw". On the other, you have genuine moral puritans on the "anti" side who jump to ANOTHER slippery slope (more of a cliff tbh) and use the prevalence of toxic yaoi/yuri to refer to LGBT folks as "degenerates" or "groomers" just because of media romanticising same-gender couples in toxic/wide age gap relationships. The Boyfriends/refrainbow hate train also gave transphobes the opportunity to invalidate the author's identity as a trans man by claiming that he is a "girl fetishising mlm relationships". Which is why this whole discourse surrounding fiction feels less like a discussion on how problematic elements should be handled in media and more one side trying to claim a superficial sense of "superiority" over the other side. Neither end up solving any problem and the people who are affected by real world abuse/grooming do not receive any help by people who'd rather win an online debate. TL;DR Proship discourse has opened the gates for bad faith arguments while accomplishing next to nothing to help victims in this back and forth bullshit.
Edit: I’m still anti censorship, still believe that dark topics have a place in media (if not actively promoting the idea that it’s morally right in the plot) and I think people with those disgusting fetishes should keep it to themselves
@@superpandaidol_3 dark topic media should be targeted towards mature audiences. I think the main issue comes from underage audiences are consuming this. (This is where I should say it's the parent's fault).
@@superpandaidol_3 YES. Keep that shit to yourself, something I’m seeing plenty of people who think rape is hot not grasp. I love writing dark topics, pedophilia, necrophilia, cannibalism, Murder, rape, and human trafficking are all things I love writing about, but never in a SEXUAL or glamorous light. The characters are still reprehensible, they’re never shown as romantic except in their own eyes. Lolita is an amazing book that creeped me the fuck out and made my skin itch while never feeling sexual or disrespectful. Those Lolita movies are an absolute scorn on the author’s legacy.
@@wibs0n68 It's the parent's fault for not monitoring their kid's online activity, and the anti-shippers for making a crusade out of it, deliberately shoving adult material in children's faces while screaming "look at how disgusting this is!!!", while also having huge rings of "concerned adults" taking those same kids aside to groom them. Anytime a pro-shipper actually points this out, we get shouted down, and videos like this will embolden them, while also shielding the actual peds from harm because they know what buzzwords antis like to hear.
i use art to vent my trauma, and to do that, it doesn’t require drawing fictional characters in situations that are widly inappropriate if they were real people. i get people cope in different ways, thats fine and dandy, but i am so so so SO sick of people using the blanket excuse of “This is just my vent art” Like if that’s how your venting, you need therapy
well, your side isnt much better. ive seen antis shipping REAL kids with REAL predators because "its funny" or some horseshit, and yet you guys still claim yourselves as """normal.""" "rules for thee but not for me" i suppose
I define an adult as anyone 21 or older. Anyone who is old enough to vote, serve on jury duty, and drink alcohol in the USA is an adult. I do not approve of shipping adults over the age of 20 with anyone under the age of 20. However, large age gap relationships between consenting adults are fine by me as long as the participants first met when they were both adults. My definition of a healthy appropriate relationship is the same as what the BDSM community defines as good: As long as the sexual relationship is safe, sane, and consensual, then it’s fine by me. Children cannot consent, and they are harmed by CSA, so I would never ship an adult with a child in a sexual manner.
@@knucklepilled aye aiya I never said I'm on THAT side of the shipping spectrum either 😭 id say I'm in the good middle as in I'm too tired to care and just scroll if I don't like something
@ hate to break it to ya but thats just the REAL meaning of proship. no matter how much you think its gross or even immoral you do NOT waste your precious time hating and curate your fandom experience. you could also just say youre a "dont like dont read" person if you dont like proship
Okay, here's my stance as someone who has been on proship Tumblr. It is okay to not like proshippers for what they ship, you don't owe people an explanation for your shipping discourse stance. You don't have to accept them or like them or interact with them. What's not okay is harassing them for what they ship. Also both proshippers and antishippers have done really bad things to each side. What we really need to be on the lookout for are the abusers, groomers, and predators in those communties. And yes, fiction DOES affect reality, but not on a 1 to 1 basis. Simply consuming fiction isn't gonna harm you, but if you continuously consume certain fiction and it starts taking a toll on you, that's when you need to take a break or get help. If you consume fiction and think it's okay in real life, then you need to get help, this shit is not okay in real life. In addition, fiction CAN be used for harm, but that does not justify censorship, it just means we need to restrict this from people who are impressionable. Also content warnings and tags exist. In addition, YOU are responsible for curating your online experience, that means filtering out any tags, blocking people that make you uncomfortable, and tagging your stuff properly. Don't like? don't read, it's that simple. And if you think proshippers are ACTUALLY doing harm, please report them. Shazimei, I love your vids, but I have to disagree with you on this one. You calling the creator of Boyfriends a proshipper was a red flag on your LGBTQ+ video, and as I have heard, proshippers have been accused of being groomers just like the LGBTQ+ community. Also I highly reccomend checking these sources: proshipresources.carrd.co/ drive.google.com/drive/folders/12eleMSs7sj_g4Wy6jbArnNq_POJyzo9l freedom-of-fanfic.tumblr.com/fandomfaq Let proshippers do what they want, as long as they are not harming people. They stand for anti-harassment and freedom of expression, not normalizing taboo subject matter to minors (oh, and some of them have minors dni). I cannot change your opinion, but I can give my insight as someone who has been in the proship community on Tumblr.
Comparing queer people to people who fantasize ABOUT KIDS is incredibly distasteful and i hope the fact that you said that sits with you at night. What the actual hell.
you have to understand people call proshippers groomers because there are lots of proship communities where kids have been actually groomed - i saw a comment by someone who experienced that, and I've seen many more. on the other hand, lgbt are called groomers because some people can't stomach the fact that a kid can be gay or trans
@@narwhalocean791there are groomers in every community. I see a concerning amount of people who are actively anti ship get outed as groomers. Theres also both straight and gay, cis and trans groomers. What we need to be talking about is ACTUAL grooming, not accusing people we know nothing about individually of being groomers just because of a community they’re in.
What rlly peeves me is when they make the argument that "Fiction doesnt affect reality" but then turn around and say "i use it to cope!!!" so it clearly does...
the only problem i have with this video is you claiming pirates don't exist, cause they do they have existed since colonization and are still a big problem in the seas due to the difficulty of prosecution
“The age of consent is 16” yes, the age of consent is 16 here. But you have to still be within 2 years of each other. Not 25 months, 24 months or less. No, middle aged men, you cannot make out with a 16 year old. That is still illegal.
That’s why there should be *two* legal ages of consent. One that is restricted to teenagers and defines their sexual relationships as only being appropriate when both teens are the same age, and the other age of consent would be for legal adults of any age to have relationships with other legal adults of any age but never with children or teenagers. Ideally, with Romeo and Juliet laws, there would be two legal ages of consent because preventing teenagers from having relationships with each other isn’t feasible or practical, but in practice, those laws are abused in many states to allow child marriages between older adults and teens.
Consent of 16 was made for teenagers is how I view it. Doesn't mean it was made for older people to go after children at that age. That's still yuck.
@ I agree. Although some evil people want to lower the age of consent and to legalize child marriage. Unfortunately, those people are the ones currently in power.
@@MelissaWickersham-k4o Easily manipulated people (read as brainless) voted them into power, sadly.
@@MelissaWickersham-k4o While 80% or so of child marriage is between a minor and some creepy ass adult…
I'm the kind of person who believes that it's okay to ship two canonically teenage characters as long as it's in a PERFECTLY sfw way. As long as you are not sexualizing either character or their relationship in any capacity I think it's okay to ship them.
Yeah like she starts with, like youll see some characters like for example tao and elle in heartstopper and be like “aw theyd be so cute tg i ship it” and thats normal to say, thats differnt from the gross things proshippers say like theyll dismiss pedophelia in tv
She even mentioned that shipping in general is not inherently bad it’s what ships you do
exactly you can ship bakudeku as long as you don’t have them in an intense sexual s&m/subdom relationship! is that so hard to do? (yeah for some people it is i knew someone like that)
@@ville-c4u from what? Spamming “no one cares”?
@ LMFAO LOOK AT HIS COMMUNITY POSTS
I was assaulted by my stepbrother. I cringe at how people normalize it and call it “love”, because that’s what he tried to do with me. The stepsibling normalization needs to stop.
Jesus Christ, I'm sorry you had to deal with that. You're right, nobody should be normalizing this or anything adjacent to it. I hope you're doing alright now.
depicting it isnt the problem, it’s glorifying it thats the problem.
Yeah, I agree.
100% agree!
exactly!!!
Also, about the "step siblings" part, i feel like alot of people don't realize how fucking rude and insensitive it is to say? Just admit you see any family that isnt nuclear as lesser because some people in it aren't blood related. Family isnt dictated by blood but by love and "they arent siblings so its okay" feels like a slap across the face of all the parents and siblings who'd go above and beyong for their adopted kids and siblings.
Yes!
Fr
the reason incest is even frowned upon is because the lack of genetic data from relatives AKA family, that aint really the case with step siblings. step family is brought into the family and the incest is bad sentiment manifested into like the general dynamic of family members. Does this mean those people view step family as lesser? no, it's just because the root problem of incest is genetics, which wouldn't be a problem with step siblings. Btw not defending, just explaining
@@sneakyfloats Ok, buddy.
YEAH. Like 3 of my cousins are adopted, and I genuinely usually forget because they're no less family than my bio cousins. Shipping any type of family even if not blood related urks me out fr fr...
I don't mind darker themes as long as they aren't seen as good, romantic, sexualized, or glamorized.
omg this. I'm not even a proshipper lol
@@sabreena5611 I only write dark themes respectfully. You don’t need to be a proshipper to agree with this statement either, stalking is absolutely terrifying because your home, the one place you’re supposed to be safe in, is dangerous.
That sound above could be regular house noises, or a person walking upstairs.
I have multiple ideas of stories (including murder, rape, and pedophilia as core features) but it’s never sexualized or shown as glamorous, even if the characters are killing terrible people.
what if they're used for humor? i'm curious on what people think of this
@@whact depends on who the butt of the joke is. Also SA is viewed a lot differently than murder
Sexualized doesn't mean like good, it's neutral perpective on a thing.
So I don't agree with that, I do agree on having stories using that for meaning.
I believe you mean using the sexualaztion for just gratification rather than what I said.
18:58 "i like pancakes" "so you hate waffles" situation
pretty sure that's called the strawman fallacy
What would atcually be related would be "freedom of action" which actually connects to the topic about Proshipping.
in the anology it would be something like-thinking about it's alot harder due to how that statement has both SiMilarities and differences.
Pancakes and waffles are made from the same material just different forms, liking one suggest the other wasn't up to par
But it's not enough because nothing in the main sentence was decriptive or mentioned any dislike because the relation was too weak.
I was gonna say so your fine with animal molestation but that has the same issue of siMilar but not enough since it's just merely a liking of a random food item.
The only condoing done is the food item itself, nothing about it's parts nothing about it's similar forms, just a thing that is liked that doesn't have much more to it.
That be different if it was like" I Like the current twitter owner(I cannot believe he was so forgetable I forgot his name)" which still the has the same issue because it doesn't mention aNything specific.
So noone can really have a "got ya!" Moment, it's a like of something related to him thats it.
Thats why finding a way to counter "I like Pancakes" it's almost impossible because there isn't much to work with or care about past just adding to it or stading your own opinion on it.
@@undeadswans
If being “chronically online” means I don’t ship incest and don’t normalize this behavior to the young then so be it
i literally dont understand why pro shippers of all people are telling me to go outside
@ oh they yap about it alongside media literacy when they don’t have it
@@Aricoatl The type of people to GENUINELY treat Lolita as a love story 💀
THANK YOU /GEN I ship characters frequently as LONG AS THEY ARE UNRELATED AND ARE IN THE SAME AGE RANGE. I don’t ship pedophilia, incest, and zoophilia because like I DON’T THINK WE SHOULD ROMATICIZE PEDOPHILIA, INCEST, ZOOPHILIA, AND THEIR ILK. /gen
I hate hate hate when people say they're proshippers to help with their trauma because I do use fan media to deal with my trauma, but not in the same way.
I don't ship characters into bad relationships, but if I read a fanfiction where, let's eay Levi Ackerman has a complicated relationship woth intimacy because his mother was a sex worker and might have accidentally exposed him to that world and how he was almost sex trafficked, or how Momo Yaoyorozu deals with objectification at such a young age, it's because I want to feel seen. This character understands how I feel and it's like I'm less alone.
There are healthy ways to engage with art that doesn't justify these bad things.
I think it should also be mentioned that just because you're a victim doesn't mean you can't have your mind warped by this stuff and act as a perpetrator because you think it's okay. It's actually quite common in underage sex offenders for them to have been abused first and learn it from somewhere. I have empathy for these people's pain but it doesn't absolve them of spreading harm or directly harming others.
8:20 "When you consume something repeatedly it changes the way you think" this! This is why diversity is so important in fiction! Movies and film trigger similar parts in your brain as interacting with those groups. It normalizes it to you, which with diversity is a good thing... but you don't want to normalize problematic relationships in your brain...
😇
When you’re so fatuous you openly admit that the diversity push is in fact brainwashing. I’m very grateful for the puerile posters on youtube now. Saying the quiet part aloud.
Once again, more content to allow people in the middle to make their own decision (we don’t need to MKULTRA them like you do).
No, that is not true. She is spreading misinformation, consuming dark content will not ‘poison’ your brain, that is rooted in conservative Christian rhetoric, and is blatantly false and anti-science. There are many studies that prove that taboo fantasies are normal, and exploring dark fictional content helps MANY victims cope with their trauma. (And IS SUPPORTED by licensed therapists) To compare them to their abusers for consuming dark fiction (a completely non-harmful and safe way to cope with their trauma) is insulting to victims and is disrespectful.
Im going to be saying this as someone studying psychology atm. This is frankly untrue, just from a logic perspective, removed from academic conjecture
Not only does this now enable the idea that the audience may turn violent if consuming enough violent content. This also enables the hoπophobic worldview that someone could possibly be "made hoπose×μaI" from consuming particular content if given enough time
the influence that media has on people is _much_ more nuanced than just exposure = action. And frankly, it's disappointing seeing this position out in the wild
@ThatsCyrus
Okay 1: do a little research before trying to say something.
Look for the Stanford University article "The transformative power of film"
(I tried to put a link, but it caused my comment to disappear).
And 2: I never said you can change your orientation or gender. It's impossible, I'm trans, if it were possible, i would have done so. I didn't choose to be trans, i was always like this since i was born.
@ThatsCyrus
Okay 1: do a little research before trying to say something.
Look for the standard university article called
"The transformative power of film" (i tried to post the link, but it didn't work)
And 2: I never said you can change your orientation or gender. It's impossible, I'm trans, if it were possible, i would have done so. I didn't choose to be trans, i was always like this since i was born.
also did you even read my comment? I never said exposure = action. You're arguing against your own imagination. All i said was that seeing things in media makes you begin to think of it as normal, it also causes you to be more empathetic. This is why diversity in film is so important.
i would like to add something as a vocaloid fan: *vocaloids don't have canon ages* because they're instruments, but rather the producers change their ages depending on the context of the song, so hatsune miku isn't canonically 16, her age changes depending on the song ^^ i get why there's this misconception because it's been a problem in the vocaloid community itself, so i wanted to clear it out!!
Agree, however I think for songs like that one Miku uno song where Miku is clearly drawn as a child, then it’s wrong. Songs like Sad Girl Sex by Deco*27, Miku is drawn as an adult, so it’s okay.
I don’t like the “Miku is canonically ageless”, because what it means is you can draw Miku as an adult or as a child, not “you can sexualize children because Miku isn’t _technically_ a child, even if you draw her as one”.
The Japanese official website says she's 16 though...
@@100nentamago yeah, Miku IS 16, but she can also be whatever u want her to be
Biggest flaw about this type of thing is weirdos using this fact to make lolibait miku :/
@@100nentamago The official design for Miku is 16. Her age can change however you want, just like her design.
as a kid, i had been in the proshipping community. there were so many adults (and kids parroting them) who kept saying "if it's okay in fiction, it should be okay in real life"
and a lot of proshippers are in denial of this problem. so many say "victims never object to proshipping, so it's okay"
it's egregious
I am so sorry to hear that. I’m so glad you’re out of that horrible cesspool
I hope no mental issues came from that :((( i know that could be really traumatic 💔
I'm happy you got out safely take care of yourself buddy
As a child, I almost got into that community. Almost. The first fanfic I found was extremely brutal. And I just sat there like "holy shit this isn't okay actually". And I never went back
I’m sorry that this has happened to you, but the problem does not lie within proshippers or the content itself, you were manipulated by people who took advantage of you because they are **predators.** There seems to be this narrative going on claiming that all proship adults are groomers and anti adults are safe, and this is **far from the truth**. A child predator is a child predator, regardless if they are a proshipper or not. And I want you to understand this. Believe me, there are plenty of child predators who are also antis as well, and they claim that they are ‘safe adults’ that can be trusted (which is a HUGGGEE red flag). Please be careful and watch out for those people. Predators can be ANYONE, and just because someone is a proshipper DOES NOT MEAN they are a child predator. And just because an adult is an anti, DOESN’T MEAN they are safe to be around.
And being in an adult oriented space as a minor is not safe, regardless if it’s proshipping or not. You were manipulated into being in an adult-oriented space, and adults took advantage of you and abused you for that reason.. This is why minors should NEVER, NEVER be in adult spaces. And this is ALSO why minors need to learn internet safety and their parents NEED TO MONITOR THE CONTENT THEY CONSUME, and they shouldn’t be on popular social media platforms. Because unfortunately, there are dangerous predators **everywhere…** Overall, I wish you nothing but the best.. and I’m sorry this happened to you. but please look at this from a different angle. For your own safety..
About the Miku thing, I feel like you’re allowed to make sexual songs with her if you make it very clear she’s an adult. For example, Rabbit hole sexualized her as an adult and that’s okay but Mimikunawata nice try sexualizes her as a child which is bad
Yeah
Was Miku not in a song with Ashnikko? That song wasn't PG.
@ I don’t know of Ashnikko was that one of the vocaloids using a kids voice?
It's still weird when people push that into places where it isn't wanted and just make people uncomfortable.
rabbit hole does NOT have miku in it, she's a different character
I forget her name but a lady said "there's a point where coping strategies just retraumatizing you"
This^^^
I think the problem comes when you divide yourself into pro and anti so you're blind to critique Because im very okay with shipping for the most part but there are times it crosses the line and goes to into justifying anything because it's fiction and i can't stand for that.
There’s no shot someone used Mizuki Akiyama to say “Fiction doesn’t affect reality.” My guy, people have stated their story literally saved their life. Are you insane? Like sure, rage bait, I’m probably falling for it, but I’m not commenting on their post and giving them traction so it’s fine. I wanna be upset about it.
When I saw that I was like don't use my mizuki for that 😭
REAL LIKE THEY SHOULD GET AWAY FROM MIZUKI 😭
Unrelated but am I allowed to use any pronouns for mizuki?
@@SmolViola313I think for Mizuki it’s only they/them and she/her. In the global version they never used any other pronouns
@UmbranCrow ok ty!
fiction doesnt affect reality in the way people think, ur not gonna murder people cuz someone in fiction did it. Our brains can desperate fiction from reality. It can def inspire you to become a better person tho
I hate proshippers because they CONSTANTLY misuse the “fiction doesn’t affect reality” argument. “Fiction doesn’t affect reality” used to mean “you can’t blame a kids show or a video game for someone becoming a pedo or a murderer, that is on them.” Now it means “I’m allowed to sexualize kids and the idea of rape because it’s just fiction!” I hate it here.
REAL
@@ville-c4u you do
@ i care
ville is a bot ignore it
@@ville-c4uif you dont care, why you wrote this comment?
6:15 i love how “cnc” yaoi is so popular and the clear abuse is disregarded as “veiled love” all the while 177013 became a known meme BECAUSE of the content. emergence even has basically the same plot as jinx, not for the entire story but there is a portion. people still don’t see sexual abuse towards men as sexual abuse and this social phenomenon is a great example of that.
YES. Deadass it feels like nobody knows what CNC means anymore, a CNC book doesn’t mean reading a character get raped, it means reading a character roleplay a rape scene, still something I’d avoid like the plague, but at least THAT is CNC.
EDIT: ALSO THIS!! It feels like a HUGE tell whenever someone can only read “BL” rape, like really? It’s also with that “I can make him worse” in reference to that “I can fix him” stuff, both are bad mentalities but “I can make him worse” is so focused on letting a man dwell in his own pain (you know, “he’s abusive but he has a bad past!!” Stuff) rather than helping him out of it, literally making him a worse person instead of getting the man the help he needs. “Bad boy” books are so focused on sexualizing a man’s pain that causes him to be abusive, which then sexualized a woman’s pain.
Bro i needed this these people will not listen. they are excusing their mental coping methods by saying they’re a proshipper. which also says “i don’t want to change these habits” leading to this mentality as adults. and before i hear “oh they will change as adults” not everyone will automatically switch out of their YEARS of habits and could genuinely lead to predatory behavior.
Fiction doesn’t affect reality… until it does
Edit: Looking back on this comment it feels kind of vague so I’m gonna say what I meant. Even though some fictional violent things don’t affect reality like shooter games you can’t just say because one fictional thing doesn’t affect reality doesn’t means everything doesn’t affect reality that’s why trigger warnings and filters exist to keep kids and people who aren’t mentally ok enough to see those things from consuming it like me I’m very sensitive to gore and animal abuse so knowing how it affects me I try staying away from it and that’s how fiction affects me it’s not how you probably get affected but we all have are own triggers because that’s how humans work you can make gore and depictions of animal abuse just don’t indorse it clarify it’s bad and to not simulate it and to click off if it makes the viewer uncomfortable
Fictions bleeds into reality for sure. You may not notice it at first, but once you do you will never stop noticing it
@@marchalloweenn many people that were in a proshipping community ( esp. kids and teens ) had their views changed, fiction always affects
@@therewasnomino No, it doesn't. By that logic, GTA causes more mass shootings, GOT causes more cases of incest, and Coffin of Andy and Leyley makes people eat their parents. And also, by 'proshipping community' you mean 'adult oriented spaces' Well, kids and teens shouldn't be in adult spaces to begin with. Regardless if it is proship or not.
@@therewasnomino It's called being delusional. If anyone do genuinely have this issue, please seek medical attention. No one should be normalizing it.
@@marchalloweenn And yet, Jaws made everyone afraid of sharks. Hi, I was groomed into proshipping. Fiction affects reality, period.
“But it’s fiction-“ BUT ITS A FUCKING MINOR AHHHHHHH
FR!!! Like, there is so much fiction out there, but you chose to draw the child in an inappropriate way? 🤨 There is no excuse
@@Eazypeazy13 FOR REAL OMG! Especially with the insane Melanie Martinez fans who are excusing the straight up lolicon in her Crybaby coloring book 🤮
@@chloesnightmaresUGGGHHH don’t get me started on Mel bro. I stopped listening to everything she did and released after the SA allegations, I’m happy she’s getting outed for the creep she is.
are they aging the character up? because you can do that so long as they aren't a toddler. like just come up with an AU where they're an adult
@@sabsain2399 the reason people are so upset is that they’re not
On the miku bit, I would like to say many modules have different ages, especially fan made ones. So something like rabbit hole miku is significantly older than base miku
Also, I agree with some stuff from the video and some not, about Hatsune Miku, I get shes 16 (it depends since in some medias her age is 18 like bunny hole) but when you look at her she looks unrealistic, big eyes and small nose. People call sailor mars a waifu and shes 16 but if you just look at her she has big eyes and a small nose. Anime character's dont look realistic. Granted people who make waifu teir lists arent as degenerate as proshippers. It's just not real, I don't get tryna apply real world logic to fiction. Just wondering ur take on it
@@RainGamma I 100% agree with you. The only thing I may disagree on is the "fiction is fiction" bit because the whole "2000 year old loli " bit But as long as the character isn't a prepubesant kid/clearly without any doubt supposed to be depicted as underaged, I don't see much issue with it
@ Well the opinions may be slightly biased as I play blue archive and a H game called Black Souls, but in my mind ik I’d never do anything bad to kids. To be honest as long as lolicons realize that sexualizing kids irl is bad I have no problem.
@ Also i think that people who think “you cant find fiction disgusting or weird cuz its fiction” is wrong cuz I think we should still criticize fiction while having normal conversation about it. However mostly conversation in mainstream mostly boils "You are bad because you consume this type of content." There barely nuances to it.
@ About the fiction is fiction part, best way I can put it is the vast majority of fictional content is made with no intention of being confused with reality, but also I think fiction does effect some parts of reality like for example: you watch an anime and it teaches you to never give up vs like watching a creepypasta, wont turn you into a murderer.
"If you don't stop yourself from consuming it it starts to consume you" LOUDER FOR THE PEOPLE IN THE BACK.
Antiship doesnt mean harassment, proshippers just claim it does bc they think all criticism is an attack
One time I made a post on Tumblr saying that me being anti proship doesn't mean I'm going to harass them. I got a lot of comments of people claiming that me even making the post was harassing them
thats weird bc i still get called proship in part bcs i REFUSE to harrass proshippers.
a lot of them are minors, and i think bombarding them with hate will cause more harm than good.
also i have untreated PTSD nd some of the stuff those people post can be legitimately triggering, but i guess i should value having a moral high ground over my own mental health?
@@actualgoblinthere's a block button, so use it. Like you said and I agree, there are people who are comforted by seeing that kind of content. As a person with high amounts of childhood trauma and PTSD, I understand how looking at triggering topics can be a form of therapy, though it appears morally depraved because the actions portrayed, in a vacuum, are morally depraved. The reason people willingly look at that content is not because they live in a vacuum where it pleases them, but because it comforts them about what happened to them unwillingly by being relatable. The reason why the human brain latches onto what's relatable is dubiously interesting, but complex. TLDR: If you are not the target audience, it is not for you and don't engage.
FRRR PROSHIPPERS SEE YOURE AGAINST PROSHIPPING AND THEY AUTOMATICALLY THINK YOU GO OUT OF YOUR WAY TO HARASS PROSHIPPERS. they're actually so dumb.
LOL now THAT'S a lie! Anti-Sippers literally threaten to murder minors who ship teens their own age, with pages of documented proof of this already available and curated from screenshots of Discord, Tik Tok and Tumblr messages among others. This is not "criticism", you disgusting puritan freaks literally threaten to murder people and bait vulnerable people into suicide. But hey, that's what happens when you're a community of adult groomers pretending to "protect children" the same way Christian priests do.
9:15 Hatsune Miku doesnt have a canonical age, the age is ALWAYS up to interpretation. The age 16 should be treated more of a default setting than an actual age, Miku is by design a blank slate. There are many songs with Miku being different ages than 16. Please don't spread misinformation that causes people to be harassed, it's a shitty thing to do, especially since it's so easy to look it up.
if you actually look it up it does say sixteen and also even if it is just a default state it means most people when they see sexualised hatsune miku they will be seeing her as a sixteen year old girl
To add onto this, Hatsune Miku's original design is 16, sexualizing that is not okay. She was created to be 16 for marketing purposes, appealing to idol fans.
I have 2 examples of Miku designs on complete opposite ages: Reboot Miku looks around 12 years old. And Blue Planet includes a version of Miku which is obviously way older, maybe around 80?
I get where the misconception could be found, googling it says she’s 16 so it makes sense she’d get that impression.
gonna be honest this yt spreads a fuckton of misinformation but i agree w a lot of their points but this is just not it
@@hengrencloudy same
as someone pursuing a career in psychology (specifically as a ß€× Therapist) i need people here to understand something very important
just as we have physiological responses to stimuli that isnt conducive to what we _actually_ find sixμally arousing, we ALSO experience arousal to ideas/concepts that may excite us ߀×μally, but we do not want to perform those actions in real life for any number of reason for the individual
This conversation seems centered on people who do not understand this distinction, and frankly people who arent well educated in psychology. I feel it is important to remember the distinction brought up. Especially since I see multiple people in this comment section condemning healthy expressions of sexuality through art for being too problematic, which in of itself has roots in some problematic emotions (most likely being emblematic of cultural pressure)
the problematic emotions in question, being the pursuit to appear "normal" and general ß£× negativity
And no, there is no moral conundrum for consuming, or even enjoying, adult material with problematic themes. We already accept this on the front of horror films, violence, and all the battles we as a society had to fight to drop the Haye's Code just so we could depict guns on screen in the early 1900's
The only time there is a moral conundrum is when you decide to attach behavior used with fictional characters, towards real people instead. Which doesn't only apply to suggestive content either. Acting like it's exclusive to suggestive content is dishonest and not conducive to reality.
yeah, I wish I can send links backing you up but youtube hates links, this video is just filled with misinformation
also, she's a hypocrite, she made a video months ago about her liking shipping killer stalkers together, which, based on her own logic, will influence her
@ethanissupercool7168 I was not aware, as this is the only video I've seen from them
Misinformation is incorrect, at least imo. They seem misguided but genuinely want to help people, but do not have the education or information to understand what it is they're talking about. And don't recognize the rhetoric they're using is archaic and shown to be problematic. Especially when we look back on modern history and how authoritative bodies tried to follow this rhetoric of "fiction begets harm" to its logical conclusion
_gestures towards the Haye's Code_
*slaps this post*
This! I'm aroace tho I happen tend to get off to explicit material surrounding mind control that if it was real I would be disgusted by happening. Because for me, the appeal of the fantasy is letting someone else be in control.
This.
I've struggled $3x negativity in the past (and I'm still quite the prude even now, but on a personal opinion type-level) as an ace person, and hating on shipping in general due to not understanding it. I've just now starting to try and be more open and honest with myself about f3tishes or fictional characters that I like (haha I hate typing this, but I'm doing so in the chance someone else finds it relatable). (additionally, the aforementioned interests of mine are so painfully mild and normal compared to any of the problematic content mentioned in the video, that it's honestly pathetic)
And yet now, I see the way online fandoms behave in regards to anything deemed weird or problematic, and it seems impossible that I'll ever defeat my shame and embarrassment on these topics. Not that I think shame or embarrassment is bad or must be defeated, but rather it seems even the realm of pure fiction - a place that should be a safe space for expression - is there now a sort of strict enforcement of a moral code you must follow, lest ye be marked as evil or something.
Fiction, in my opinion, is a great way to simulate uncomfortable and immoral situations without making them happen in the real world to document. That being said, it's only great if the said situations are depicted accurately and as close to actual/natural human reaction as possible and most importantly NOT romanticized or sexualized. That's disgusting, not relatable and frankly a slap to those who experienced said situations.
'It's okay, because it's fiction!' It is not. Just because your (future) actions might not be influenced by it, doesn't mean that others won't be influenced. Also, the more normalized such fiction becomes, the more acceptance it will garner from society, thus leading more and more people to commit unethical actions, while seeing nothing wrong. This needs to stop.
To everyone who'd like to add something or give their own two cents to this comment, feel free to share your opinion, I like seeing other's perspectives :)
SAME.
I have some fucked up characters, there are some that are human traffickers, murderers, stalkers, and pimps (but let’s be honest, pretty close to the first), but they are NEVER romanticized. The shit they do is NEVER sexualized, never shown as glamorous except in their eyes alone.
I have more morally grey characters as well, two in particular are partners in crime who murder pedophiles and rapists (as they are former victims of that). I still don’t glamorize it, and the two act as foils, while one sees it as fun and even sexual, the other finds it necessary and is disgusted by the other character at times. It isn’t that hard to show that this stuff isn’t supposed to be sexual or romantic or glamorous, a notorious one being mafias, which had been SO butchered by romance media that it makes me want to charge headfirst into a wall (as someone who spends an unhealthy amount of time researching my favorite/most interesting times in history, like prohibition er).
Thank you, you put exactly what I had been thinking into words (whereas before it had just been an incoherent Thing in my head)
This is the first comment I saw that I fully, completely agree with. Fiction affects reality, reality affects fiction, those are facts of life. However, if a person is healthily able to distinguish the two, I believe they should use fiction to explore things that they would NEVER want or consider attractive in reality.
A very tame example would be that a lot of people like romance novels with jealous boyfriends, when real life jealous bfs are toxic and overbearing and not fun to date at all! When you KNOW THE DIFFERENCE, I think it is possible to let yourself explore more taboo things privately. Thought crimes don’t exist :)
If you are influenced by fiction to act on bad stuff you see, then you literally have a mental illness. Blame the person not the piece of work
Let's just put it this way, if fictional depictions of things prompted people to do that stuff in the real world, the violent crime rate compared to the sale of video games would not look like that.. Fiction doesn't fully represent individual who consumes nor the ones who creates it.We should still criticize fiction while having normal conversation about it. However mostly conversation in mainstream mostly boils "You are bad because you consume this type of content." There barely nuances to it. If its fictional, then its fictional. It's not real. Now, this isn't to say fictional things can't have real world repercussions, but that is on the people who act on it or choose to use it as justification, not on the work of fictions very existence.
In my opinion, if we’re talking problematic relationships in media, I don’t think it’s harmful AS LONG AS it isn’t available to minors. I don’t think any adult would actually be influenced by these stories. The real problem is when teenagers get their hands on content with questionable morals.
Okay, pirates are real though... Maybe not like in the one piece but yeah they are real(Like modern pirates)
Including internet pirates. Lol
yar har a pirate is free you are a pirate
I was just about to say cuz I remember learning about pirates in history class like Anne bonny and Blackbeard, I was confused like- 😭
One Piece generally can be considered as fantasy pirates and not an actual depiction of previous or even current lives of pirates.
There's a lot of art that personally squicks me out, and I think it's completely fair to point out that it's pretty messed up when people come away from media thinking something egregious is okay.
But here's my problem:
Buying fully into this belief that Media exclusively serves to imprint a fully formed set of values on walking blank slates,
1: does a profound disservice to the complex way we interpret and internalize what we're exposed to. John Carpenter made "THEY LIVE" as a commentary on Capitalism for bigoted idiots to go "The Rich Aliens are Jews Actually!!" or like- Fight Club or Verhoeven's Starship Troopers being taken at face value as the very things they were intended to ridicule.
2. Turns all of art into this weird, sterile test of whether something is Morally Didactic enough.
In short, I think it's just *complicated.* Too complicated for me to just go "Problematic Art is A-OK!!" without some example biting me in the ass.
I think the best example of what I'm worried about is the response to the Isabel Fall story "Attack Helicopter". A closeted trans woman writes this raw, ugly, complicated story about gender and violence and depersonalization; to an almost unilateral "This is a fake troll pretending to be trans, and even she is trans, Having Ugly Complicated Feelings You Need To Get Out As Art is Self Harm, Actually."
Like, I know it's not as simple as "Ough you should just Know Better than to let fiction affect you, dumb teen!", but human beings are messy and complicated, and sometimes art is a space for The Exact Things the real lived world CAN'T accomodate.
Like at what point does this impulse to Protect People from corrupting material turn into Tipper Gore going after violent video games & gangster rap? To say NOTHING of how this specific impulse to protect impressionable youths from exploitation (an impulse I completely support, let me be clear) metastasize to sh*t like "well your brain isn't REALLY mature until you're 25, 30, 35, 40" and Problematic Height Gaps.
I see a lot of this stuff coming from young, progressive people; but like when I hear teenagers online invent this new definition of p*dophilia that can exist between a 27 and a 23 year old; and then a couple months later some Republican lawmaker comes out using that same vocabulary to declare that Existing As Visibly Queer In Public is abusive to whoever sees you, I'm sorry but I HAVE to call it as I see it!!
This conversation could be about SO MANY things:
• The way the internet- hell, culture Just In General, has shut down age-group focused experiences and forced media literate adults and impressionable kids to share every media ecosystem.
• The way we're only willing to look at art as Expressly Instructional now, Media Literacy going from "understanding this media was made by someone for reasons" to "Does This Media Meet The Good Moral Standard?"
• The way- and I'm not blaming The Parents, or The Viewer- that our society Does Not Give People the time nor room nor inclination to engage with ANYTHING outside of Monkey See Monkey Do. When generations of kids are growing up trained to read snippets of texts to Glean The Right Data for a Standardized Test instead of engaging and thinking critically, when we live in a society where media is one of the few things left To Do in a post-third space, increasingly isolated, society; yeah our ability to engage with media in a healthy way Has Been Bludgeoned.
But the conversation is never about any of this. It's taken as a given that we're supposed to just choose between Consuming Safe Moral Pablum or Being Instantly Brainwashed By Anything Else.
Could the films of John Waters or Cronenberg, or Punk Music exist today; when the progressive 16-25 year old crowd is taking the same "No Filth!" approach to art as the fascist morons blubbering about Degenerate Art?
I'm sorry, but we aren't failing society by letting anyone ever see something gross or unconscionable, we're failing it by refusing to teach people to engage critically with anything.
Furthermore, I think it's ludicrously blithe to reduce people who use this stuff to cope as Too Stupid/Damaged To Think For Themselves. Again- it's Complicated- I'm SURE there are exceptions; but I've seen so many people go "Yea I consume/make Gross Art similar to Some Crap I've Experienced, I do not practice anything portrayed in it." just for throngs of people to go "Don't care + Self Harm + Gooner". It's preposterous.
TL;DR: I'm sorry, but Skill Isue. Skills society has Failed to teach almost any of us, Skill Issue that is not a moral failing of the reader, but Skill Issue. Perverts & abusers shouldn't be pushing this stuff on a general audience, and people who make gross ugly art shouldn't have to live in fear of The Most Impressionable Teen on Earth taking pieces of personal catharsis as manifestos.
I wish i could repost comments
Did you read my mind??? Bc literally. There comes a point when it goes too far, but potraying something awful in media is not glorifying it. Writing, reading, drawing, and consuming strange er0t1ca doesn't mean you're going to enact it in real life. Making vent art of something you went through don't mean you're excusing abusers. We need to learn that not everyone dipicts things they think is ok or moral. I may simp over Wanderer from genshin or Scar from wuwa, but if they were real would i still like them?? No!! Fiction is meant for us to explore odd or messed up things without putting anyone in danger.
Oh my god, this might be one of the best comments I've ever read. I don't know who you are but this is extremely well-done and well put.
It always boils down to media literacy, i believe. Consumption of art where the main focal point and idea is something messed up like, let's say Dennis Cooper's disturbing, grimy LGBT horror literature is particularly prohibited to be consumed because of moral reasons or what-not, we have failed art. Consumption of art or media analysis has become a weird contest of who can be into the least "problematic" piece of art out there.
@@echoesouth exactly, this is why people have started calling it purity culture. Its very literally an obsession with being as morally pure as possible. Art depicting dark topics is bad/impure so anyone who makes and interacts with dark art is also bad/impure, and anyone who’s friends with someone who interacts with dark art is also bad/impure. Its social contagion shit and it is so intensely toxic. Anti shippers want to purify society, and they dont understand that a pure society is impossible and attempting to make one has only ever gone very badly.
If you want to improve society you have to support victims, prevent people from becoming abusers in the first place(by supporting them), change the culture and society that enables and cultivates so much abuse, look at the root causes for problems instead of blindly attacking the symptoms.
With the Miku part, Miku is more of a template and people base different characters off of her. (Rabbit hole). But there’s some who sexualize her 16 year old avatar rather than a character based on her template
There was a phase where I kept getting proshippers on my FYP for a while. It was awful. They were trying to paint themselves as the victims when they were held accountable for promoting this kind of thing. And they always water it down, like "a proshipper is just someone who doesn't harass others for their ships".
That's what the original definition meant though?
@@kittkat-rl8fu did you completely skip the beginning of this video? definitions change, and it does not mean that now. the people who say that are using the terminology as a scapegoat to water down their heinous actions.
@bombs4w4y I know definitions change but why are the group were talking about is still using the "being proship = anti harrassment"
The creator used an example where the lgbt community took the word and changed the definition. It's exactly what people who are against problematic ships are doing, changing the definition of a word to fit their message
Idk if I explained my point very well but my point is that anti proshippers took a term and changed it to make it a conflicting one
@ the thing is, proshippers use the new definition. the only time they mention the old definition is to excuse their behavior and escape being held accountable. its nothing but a scapegoat to them, any idiot could see that. its not just a matter of 'anti-proshippers' changing a definition to make it conflicting, PROSHIPPERS did that and wanted to backpedal in order to water down their actions, just like how op mentioned.
Not even to mention, being the original definition of a proshipper isnt good either! its being complacent to pedophile, rapist, etc. dynamics under the gaze of it all being "just fiction"
I SAW HADINK IN THE THUMBNAIL. PLEASE, NO😭😭
I thought I'd never see them or their work again but they keep showing back up every so often😭
When I first found out about the Hadink situation I didn’t realize how bad it was so I googled some of their art and…I was shaking and throwing up for hours I can never unsee that disgusting crap 😭😭
@ I tried to find it too but I couldn't so for a month straight I DEFENDED them😭😭😭
My ex turned out to be proshipper and when i confronted them about interacting with person who has drawn cp on their twitter they defended it.... that was the day they turned in my ex and im still disgusted i was with someone like that
Calling it "drawn cp" has always felt weird,
Like yeah, it's disgusting and definitely something to be suspicious of but it feels just, insulting to compare it to actual csem
@@allinairhanson6886 There is another term for it when it's drawn art. "Lolicon" when it involves an underage female characters and "shotacon" when it involves an underage male characters
I wouldn't call it "drawing cp" that word should be used for the actual cases
its literally just someone whos a lolicon drawing fictional characters, which is way less worse than actual cp
@@RainGamma Fictional or not, it's porn of a child character, and therefore feeds REAL predators with more material until they can get their hands on actual CP
I do wanna bring up that sexually explicit content is aimed at adults and that the taboo *is* what makes problematic relationships in fiction attractive.
A show aimed at teenagers like Pretty Little Liars should not romanticize such relationships, dynamics or behaviours because it is partly what shapes younger folks understanding of human relationships as you said.
Pornography or any age restricted content though can engage with these dynamics because they are a way for adults to explore fantasies that excites them, same way BDSM does. When a dynamic happens between two consenting adults or within the realm of fiction aimed at adults it is hard to make the point that this should reflect badly on a human being morals without diving into thought-policing. An adult fantasizing about situations where sex is had without consent isn't an adult that wants the situation to happen, it *is* an adult who finds exploring the ideas in the safety of their minds satisfying.
It is a value that I hold fantasies written on paper or drawn digitally should not reflect on a human being morals, because then the pages and pages of murder/torture fantasies written by teenagers AND adults everywhere would be incriminating and I relate to that.
P.S I want to remind people though that by Federal law in Canada any depiction of minors real or fictional in any sort of medium from written, drawn, still images or video form is considered ch*ld p**nography and the possession and/or distribution of it is a criminal offense. Even if you agree with me this argument won't get your far in court when you're charged because of your All-Might x Deku porn. It is stated clear as day.
On that PS
While it's technically true, there have been barely any cases where someone has been arrested for that kinda stuff, even much more extreme stuff, and plenty of websites that host it don't have any legal troubles with that
The only cases I have heard of where they were arrested for it is when it led to an investigation that found actual csem
i completely agree with everything you said , but i need to point out how when you said you don't like Miku being sexualized because she's 16 that is FALSE and i'm so tired of people making this point 😭
with Vocaloids / Vocal Synths the entire purpose is for them to be ANYTHING you imagine because they are INSTRUMENTS. that includes age , gender , race , overall design , and other such things that are changed to help portray the songs artistry.
for example in the song Rabbit Hole where Miku is clearly meant to be an adult and has her own unique design seperate from the Original Miku
and i will say there's also plenty of Vocaloid songs where they portray the character as elementary school age and then continue to sexualize them which then IS wrong
it's on a song by song basis because each one has it's own characteristics applied to the Vocal Synth ^^
I just realized why I like her videos it's how she deals with arguments she deals with them in a similar way as my foster brother, which isn't a insult its a compliment because they both have a very matter a fact way of bringing up points and that's good although it does make people you shouldn't sugar coat your beliefs on a situation or idea
As a very active Ao3 user, I stand for what it all is, and I disagree with all the anti-shipping rhetoric. To start off, if this is about non-general media like fan fiction or fan content of any kind, then please fuck off if you don't like it, but unless this is about someone like Shadman, who has done questionable art concerning real people (Keemstar's kid), then go on about your day and ignore it.
I think this just boils down to a tagging (trigger warnings) problem in general. Like in a more decent world, most media would have tags, but that is not ours, so just curate your own experience to avoid unnecessary grievances or attacking artists by the disguise of critique.
Okay I agree 100% but the Miku example is wrong, if people simp over a teenage/ younger version of Miku it’s bad, but Miku has no canon age, if they simp over for example rabbit hole Miku which is over 18, it’s fine! I don’t mean to sound harsh or anything I just want to make sure you knew! :) also amazing video!
I agree with some stuff from the video and some not, about Hatsune Miku, I get shes 16 (it depends since in some medias her age is 18 like bunny hole) but when you look at her she looks unrealistic, big eyes and small nose. People call sailor mars a waifu and shes 16 but if you just look at her she has big eyes and a small nose. Anime character's dont look realistic. Granted people who make waifu teir lists arent as degenerate as proshippers. It's just not real, I don't get tryna apply real world logic to fiction
While fictional stories can effect reality it's not In the way you think. If an story emotionally or intellectually resonates with someone it's possible that person may change their behavior or beliefs. But liking something bad in fiction does not mean that person would like it in reality. Otherwise every Grand theft Auto player would be hardened criminals.
Exactly. Its only a problem if bad behavior comes to be seen as high status, like when celebrities or other famous people promote things like that as good.
@@izzymosley1970 Very well said!
Theres a differnce in playing war and car games and supporting pedophelia
@@itz_blue_hairur logic: shooting ppl in gta DOESN’T make you want to shoot ppl irl, but liking lolis DOES make u want to touch kids irl? why’s that? both are fictional. just because u find one more gross than the other doesn’t mean u can have double standards
Thank you
There is also proof that indulging in a paraphilla makes said paraphilla worse and more out of hand (just like addiction). But proshippers don’t want to talk about that part. Theres a HUGEEE difference between someone delving into a dark topic and portraying it, and a person blatantly romanticizing it. Yes, it can be a ‘coping mechanism’ for victims. But it’s unhealthy, it’s a form of self harm and it only makes you feel worse. I turned to content like proshipping at age 12 when I was being gr00med, and ended up getting gr00med AGAIN by a proshipper. It only made me more traumatized and feel more disgusting, and it also made me stay with my gr00mer because the media I consumed was so common I thought it was okay. Proshipping is NOT A HEALTHY COPING MECHANISM. While I can see why some victims, especially young ones, turn to it, it’s not healthy. Yes you can explore your trauma through fiction, but trying to romanticize or normalize it is never okay for you, or anyone else.
Same here, I “coped” with trauma and emotions by beating the shit out of myself, but thank god I only had squishy parts of my skull instead of getting groomed like people going into pro shipping end up.
I’m so sorry about what happened to you, proshipping communities enable predators so much it’s insane. Victims on a silver platter and nobody in the community wants to talk about it.
8:20 this is why so many predators think literal 13 year olds look 18.. as a victim at 13 being told my body definitely looked like an adult YES THIS IS ONE OF THE BIGGEST REASONS other than the fact they're stupid and refuse to listen to those points
I don't agree with consuming fiction will make that seep into the real world, like for the example for hatune miku, shes 16 (depends what media you look at cuz her age is not canon) but also she just doesn't look realistic and I'm talking about her eyes and small nose. Also it's just not real, you gotta have a mental illness to look at that then think its ok to do something to a 16yr irl. Also I'm sorry that a horrifying thing like that happened to u
Paraphilias and kinks are two different things.
17:10 THANK YOU someone had to say this. I have been looking into drama around for example people who have paraphilia. And they to have a problem, while they should not be attack, ITS NOT A GOOD COPING MECHANISM! Go to any therapist and ask them that, if they disagree, they probably aren't that good!
I feel bad that my comment became the most popular when all it was was a TLDR. And then my best friend saw it. 😢😢😢
But yeah. Storytelling has always been about messaging. It's one of the fundamentals. Almost every story has a lesson. It's just how stories work. Sometimes stories can have unintentional lessons due to things being so normalized. As a storyteller, you have to be conscious of that.
If fiction didnt affect reality then diversity in terms of minorities in shows, video games, etc. Wouldnt matter
Fiction will always affect reality, because "Fiction is fiction until someone makes it", this is true. Fiction will one day become reality, and fiction is our culture. On what we build on, because without fiction, there is no creativity.
The fact of the matter is, that fiction is culture, on what we build on, but culture doesn't always mean fiction.
Fiction affects reality, always has been sadly. I just hope it affect the world in a good way as much as it can. And I hope that any community never has a Slenderman or Poly incident.
I was 18 when I graduated high school and moved away for college. As it just so happened, my almost 40 year old (at the time) brother lived really close to my college and had a spare room that he was offering to me for less than any dorm. Plus, if I moved in with him, I could bring my cat with me while I wouldn't be able to if I moved into a dorm. It seemed like the perfect deal!
As soon as I moved in, he found out how much I like anime.
He started looking up anime and found a fandom phrase that was pretty common back then (2014). "Incest is wincest", to be specific.
He was also a porn addict, citing it as his most valuable source of information on human biology.
...
I can't stand to be in the same room as him anymore.
"fiction doesn't affect reality" is the dumbest shit I've ever herd, I watched blue lock and thought I could play soccer, spoiler alert: i CANNOT
I really hate the proship antiship discourse. Because I do agree that lolicon and incest really don’t need to be in popular media as frequently as they are. I desperately hunt down anime with adult casts because I am so sick of seeing sexualized teenagers.
At the same time, I think it’s a bad idea to outright ban anything that romanticizes questionable content, whether it come from bad writing, the romanticizing being the point and it being like a horror movie scenario, or something or other. And the discourse always just boils down into ‘you’re harassing me’ and ‘you’re all a bunch of pdfs’.
Consensual non consent gets dragged into it a lot. It think its complicated why people enjoy it really. But most of it stems around matters of control. Guilt, Christian guilt is one aspect of it. In a culture where sex is such a taboo, sometimes it’s easier to enjoy it if you don’t feel like you’re fully in control of it. Otherwise it just ends with some big, guilty feelings. And of course with cnc you can say no and stop at any point, it’s just roleplay, but it takes that feeling of guilt away.
On another hand, sometimes it’s more about being able to say no or stop at any point and knowing you have power in this situation. Knowing that you have full control and that, in this scenario, you aren’t saying to stop because you’re enjoying yourself.
Alternatively if a person is in the active role, it’s probably because it’s nice having so much control in the situation, and knowing that any other party has so much trust in you.
Personally, I love being in situations where I am fully control to dote on and take care of a person, even if they don’t necessarily want me to. It makes me feel good to demand that my partner eat goes and eats a sandwich even when their depression monkey says that the sandwich is the enemy. I love when my partner says I’m allowed to make them take care of themself, even if they’re upset and stomping their feet and saying they don’t want to. I know on their end, it centers around a lot of unconditional love and care, even when they’re having a tantrum and are behaving at their worst.
So when it comes to fictional abuse stories, it kinda gets complicated for me. Cause when I read these stories or pick up games themed around romanticized abuse, it feels more like cnc between me and the author than it does between the characters. Like the author is going ‘I’m gonna show you this really fucked up story, but if you wanna leave now, that’s okay.’ And then I go ‘For real? Lemme see that.’ And then I read and kick my legs and go ‘Wow, that was really fucked up!’ and clap because this is what we both agreed to upon starting.
But this only works if the story has trigger warnings or at least a tagging system. The trigger warning is like our handshake agreeing that this content is really fucked up, and even if it’s being romanticized in the story, we both know it’s fucked up. We’re exploring the dynamic purely in a fictional sense. It’s like a horror movie. Ya stuck horror into the genre, I know what’s coming. I came for the horror and the thrills.
When I watch tv show and it suddenly just throws in a graphic sexual assault scene and I didn’t know that the story was going to be about that, that’s no longer fun. We did not come to agreement on this. You shoulda warned me, big man.
If they at least don’t romanticize it and portray it as abuse, then I get what they’re doing. I would still have liked a heads up that it would be coming.
If they don’t warn me, and they still romanticize it, then now I’m worried about the author and how the author feels on these matters.
But that’s just how I experience media, and I know that not everybody experiences it like that.
Finally something that seems just a little bit more developed than the rest of the comments here. You explained your reasoning in full depth, had nuance, and I may or may not disagree, but I love that you said it's not universal. Kudos to you.
Thank you for the nuance, this seems to be missing in this comment section. A lot of this discourse comes dangerously close to censorship which is not a good thing.
most sane take here in this video and comment section
God i wanna tattoo this comment on my forehead
I absolute *despise* loli/shota + incest and the culture around it, but the whole anti vs proshipper discourse has Zero nuance
There are irl consequences to fiction, but that too depends on many other aspects
(Plus there can be a *lot* of ableism on both sides)
I’m of the belief that it’s important to know where you draw the line.
While I do subscribe to the anti beliefs of incest and lolisho/pdf are never okay, everything else is definitely in a grey area like you say.
While I draw the line at those things and cannot respect anyone who doesn’t, I’m not gonna go out of my way to harass people who do.
But if they come to me first (which does happen) I’m gonna block them at the very least.
I follow an account on instagram that posts proshipper accounts not to send people to harass them but to raise awareness and basically serve as a block list.
They have a strong anti harassment policy and only encourage individuals to block the accounts.
Life is like a series of waves created by the things we experience; we're like a small lake, and even a single bad event can ripple through it, shaping everything, even if we try to overlook it.
this is always hard to argue in text but anyway
liking bad things in fiction does not indicate you like it in real life, else we'd have plenty to worry about from people playing violent video games
Like, they are deeply enjoying that fictional violence, but because they properly distinguish it from real violence in their head, they aint gonna get actually violent
same applies with other messed up fiction, universally
@ clearly plenty of people do if theyre making videos and having arguments on the subject
@@violet_silly9929it's a troll, just ignore it.
THISS... like i don't even interact with too much "problematic media" but i do find myself in related spaces. One question I've always had is why people are okay with murder being depicted in fiction, often glorified or romanticised, but they draw the line at proshipping. It just feels oddly puritan, somehow?
agree
@@runnerupoftheoldworld literally, they are ok with murder but not sexual violence
"I post on TH-cam of course I'm chronically online"
what the fuck is that emoji and how
Bruh the whole "fiction doesn't affect reality" argument went out the window when a Brony from Indianapolis committed a MASS SHOOTING over Applejack.
ALSO I actually got into a fight over this on Tumblr, being the cesspool that it was, after making a post talking about an artist who shipped two twin brother characters. I made it purely to warn people triggered by such content to block them in advance, but a lot of proshippers still got made at me and two separate people wrote an entire book about how I was so much more toxic for "kink-shaming" when fetishizing incest desensitizes people to real cases of incest and the harm it causes because it's constantly portrayed as "just a kink." Their only argument? "It's just fiction. No one's getting hurt."
I expected nothing else, and when I asked them about it, they had nothing to say.
The mass shooter was already mentally ill before. Just because he got attached to Applejack doesn't mean he randomly became a mass shooter, he probably would have ended up as one even if he never became a Brony and was attached to Applejack. This situation is a lot more complex than just getting obsessed and attached over a fictional character from MLP. Becoming a brony = mass shooter.
@tempestpbkh Yeah, no kidding, the point is there are still a lot of people who will take things too far and do something like this over a fictional character or something out of the media. Not to mention all the studies done on things like porn addictions, child predation/grooming, and how communities of proshippers give these freaks a place to congregate and be validated and exposes very young people to wildly unhealthy relationship dynamics to look up to.
fiction doesnt effect reality, he literally mentally ill..
@ Then why are fictional pieces so often credited for pushing social change? Like "Silent Spring," in 1962. It was about how DDT pesticides were killing birds, and the book did a LOT to get people to start getting up to make a difference before it was too late.
Yeah, the dude had a lot of other things going on, that's absolutely true, but he ultimately was influenced by fiction. NON-VIOLENT fiction at that. And if you want a really common example, just look at Otaku culture. Those people are so obsessed with hentai and shitty fanservice anime that it's ruined their social skills and makes them unbearable to be around. Not on quite the same level as a mass shooting, thank god, but it's much more wide-spread and is pretty concerning.
@ Can't tell if this was replied to me or not, but I wasn't disagreeing, I just thought that you were just blaming it entirely on one fictional character from a show.
Also, with Otaku culture, they were likely anti-social or socially awkward beforehand that is how it is usually, and once again mentally ill.
Sorry for the confusion if this reply was directed towards me.
Ok but is it just me or I LOVE your intros?!
"Fiction doesn't affect reality" Everything on the internet affects reality. This can be positive but also negative effects, which is important to take into account. When we tell you (the proshipper) that your content affects reality, we don't insinuate that your media is the only thing that affects reality, because everything on the internet affects it, it's all about HOW it affects reality.
real, people these days are brainrotting on they're screen 24/7 not knowing was real or not anymore.
of course fiction affects reality, but the problem here is asserting that engaging with problematic content outside of explicitly negative contexts will somehow lead to people committing those actions
that assertion is literally just made up, academic conjecture proved this wrong almost three decades ago and we've only gotten more articulate as to how this is the case
Saying anything besides agreement on that front is like trying to refute the acceleration of gravity on Earth in the middle of physics class
@@ThatsCyrusnope you’re wrong
@@stargirIll be more specific on how im wrong, because it's been long debunked (since the 80s) that media is a causal force behind people committing taboo actions/breaking the law
Literally only people who take harmful acts from fiction to reality, are people with mental illness.
I agree with most of the video, but not all fictional media glorifying some bad behavior causes it's audience to do said behavior. For example, time and time again studies show that consumers of violent media, especially games, aren't more likely to commit violence.
Now as for why some views and behaviors are picked up by audiences and some aren't probably makes for a fascinating video. Is it a lack of counter-acting media? Is it because everyone knows violence is bad? Or is it something else?
My guess would be that it's mainly that fictional media only has a "soft" influence on your opinions, which is only able to significantly form or change beliefs when you didn't have strong opinions on that topic beforehand.
agree
like I have a strong opinion since there's stuff in fiction I like but is def not okay irl, but I'm able to understand it's not real. There's a game called black souls and it's a very good story but a lot of ppl don't like it cuz of lolis and it has grape in it (which the game never justifies it and its a h game)
How dare i not see this in 3 seconds TH-cam trippin
Edit: we should sue TH-cam for making us wait that long to see this masterpiece of a video
Lucky 😟, I had to wait 21 minutes
@@Ellexxxie I had 2 wait 3 hours :[
@@catdan_787 I had to wait 4 hours 😭
i had to wait 8 hours ☹️☹️☹️😔😔😔
Another good example of fiction affecting reality is the Nicholas White case; he was trapped in an elevator for two days in 1999, and because of the publicity he received, TV shows started basing episode plots on what happened to him, glorifying it drastically (even to the point he stopped doing interviews in 2011 because people kept laughing at him);
I also got trapped in an elevator when I was 12 and that's left me traumatized since. A bit over a year later, my teacher assigned that as a prompt to me and she didn't know it actually happened to real people even though she was old enough to have heard about it at the time it happened, she thought of it as just "a way to spend time with someone/" I did get a new writing prompt later (about how I cope after traumatic events) but the damage had already been done
I think most of your points were really well put at the first half of the video, though i’m not sure this is the best way to go about art in life as a whole. I think socially inept & unaware people are everywhere and sadly, you can’t control them, the most you can do is correct them and leave them alone/block them. There’s lots of people who have different ways of coping & different ways of expressing their love for the world and some of it comes out in really weird ways, don’t get me wrong. i’m not here to say the proshipping community is good, it most of the time just isn’t at all. What i’m trying to say is there’s people out there that are respectful, loving, peaceful & mature about their odd attractions, even if the loudest of paraphiles/proshippers are admittedly very hopelessly lost in the human experience. The second half of the video to me came off a bit more harsh, like people should be bullied for something weird about them, and while i do understand pushing a random person who’s being rude away, if it’s a friend, I think if theirs respect going both ways, then their should be either healthy discussion or no discussion depending on what’s best for the relationship. Wishing you the best, i know how weird the world and life is!
2:30 So, I'm not even a proshipper and all that stuff but I feel that even if we don't like that stuff it's better to use the correct definitions, being that proshipper actually means "Pro fanfiction", like they are refering to not caring about other people do if it stays as a thing only in fictionary stuff, so yeah it doesn't mean "Problematic".
I read about it, it's more like "I support people doing any kind of art with any kind of character", like a "pro-vegan" or a "pro-choice" but just with fandom stuff ig.
FINALLY BRO. I AM SO SSICK AND TIRED OF PEOPLE SAYING "erm it's just fiction, it's not hurting anybody" LIKE HELLO??? YES IT IS WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUTTTt
1:58 i think proshipping actually means not being toxic to any ship whereas darkshipping is the term you're looking for.
I just ignore stuff like this. If they want to consume stuff like this so be it, I only care if they act on it. Anything else is just a waste of ressources. The only time one should care if it gets popular and seen as high status but instead of having a moral freakout one should portray it as low status and disgusting, just as it is in real life. For example: instead of crying for a ban on lolis or morally browbeating people who consume them just send a meme with how they look in real life and that no matter how they will portray themselves as hero in their fiction, in real life they are low status and ugly.
This, I think people will do what they want no matter how I feel, and I’ve accepted that. If they act on it, however, then that’s where I cross the line.
This.
Like getting reports on drawn depictions of csem instead of csem is very resource wasteful.
Yes, fiction affects reality, but like I feel like you should focus on reality on what harm it causes instead of browbeating.
And worse: not so fun fact, not even lolis can be used as an indicator on who offends. It's literally demoralizing. :/
Calling something cringe has always been more effective than calling something bad.
I used to consume this stuff, it got bad and I got addicted and while I never went out and raped or groomed, it fucked with the way I perceived victims and downplayed the absolute horror an abusive or stalker partner is.
The only proshippers I FW are the ones who thought the label meant “I know these two adult/two teenage characters met like, once, but fuck it their dynamic is interesting.”
I don’t care if you like getting pissed on or getting whipped in your own bedroom or an appropriate adult space, as long as you don’t fantasize about pedophilia or rape.
I agree, I mean also I play BA and I finished a game called Black Souls which has lolis in it but I'm not mentally ill and i realize that it's not real and I have my own morals and that crap is wrong irl.
You r rlly real for this thanks for making this vid… a lot of ppl online need to see this
i hate proshippers, but a lot of them are using it as a coping mechanism because they have been traumatized. to some, this coping mechanism is the best one they have so let's not send death threats to them please
Bro didn’t watch the video
it's a weird ass coping mechanism they're just living it again and again
I would never do that to myself
i hate pro shippers so much😭 idk how ppl like them
or like shipping those certain characters😭🙏
The way i CRINGED having read a shit ton of proships before. Tbf, most of them DO come with a warning and a dead dove do not eat tag but DAMN 🖐️😭😭
dude why are you reading them then. 💀💀 if you're actively searching for the content, and looking through the tags and still reading it despite ALL THE WARNINGS, that seems like you're shooting yourself in the foot bruv
@N30-LUCIF3R I'm not reading them NOW, i was referring to when I was younger and didn't know it was problematic 😭😭 I've consumed so much borderline toxic relationship from c-dramas, mangas, and stuff that it just didn't seemed all that bad. Now I only read toxic relationships when I felt like hating myself and want the fuck up my mental health even more
@@N30-LUCIF3R THANK YOU LITERALLY THIS
@@N30-LUCIF3R I mean, I DO still sometimes read toxic relationships but I was referring to when I was younger cuz like, back then I didn't really read the tags and I didn't really know how problematic they were at the time and I read A LOT of it that im pretty much desensitized. Now? im just reading to see how worse it can get and the answer is: it can ALWAYS get worse.
@@Lmao_moood yeah bro you’re just shooting yourself in the foot. all your doing is desensitizing yourself to that content more and over-exposure to it will cause more problems
Thank you for this explanation! I'm online, but not, like, *that* online so i dont think I've really seen pro shipping labeled as such.
What i have seen is people condemning it, or saying X person is problematic because they're a pro-shipper. I do think, as someone who is an outsider to this, creators should explain a little bit more when they say someone is problematic because they're a pro-shipper. Like, how do you know that person is a pro-shipper and what specifically have they supported? I think this paints a better picture for audience members who think "well pro shipping could mean anything."
it baffles me how people allow themselves to indulge in such odd things while also letting it seep into their real life. like, I didn't have enough internet restrictions as a kid, I saw some messed up stuff, and yeah it definitely affected me, but I still managed to keep a baseline of like, not bringing that shit to reality at all? like no matter what I saw it was entirely disconnected from everyone I met irl. I get others have different situations maybe making them more susceptible to being affected by things, I just haven't had that experience myself so its harder to understand.
while I may occasionally consume media with messed up stuff, no way in hell will it ever be justified in my mind. the moment something like that seeps into someone's real life, they need a damn therapist or SOMETHING.
Hi, recovering porn addict... I feel down that rabbit hole and I have had to rewire my brain to desexualize those around me because for a long time I thought of the people around me in a sexual manor and I hated it. It made me feel disgusting and awful and for people to glorify this stuff is so gross. It makes me want to vomit sometimes.
I haven’t watched this yet but here’s my opinion on proshippers and darkships as a victim:
it is genuinely a very good coping mechanism, recommended by mental health professionals, to get out the intrusive thoughts through media/fiction. HOWEVER, posting it online and publically is useless and causes many victims harm. not everyone copes that way. it triggers people. it should be kept private.
I'm also not okay with a character who physically looks like, acts like, and sounds like a child but is supposed to be an adult woman or vice versa.
I just think this is drama for the sake of drama. I like any kind of horror and gruesome fictional content because of how bad it is. Would I act on it? No. So the problem is...? This makes me remember of certain groups that banned books because they were seen as impure and evil.
THANK YOU
sorry for thinking romanticizing pedophilia and incest is weird i guess 🙄🙄🙄
@@CYCL0PZZZZme when i purposely miss the point
@@lualas then what's the point
@@CYCL0PZZZZ u can think it’s wierd, but don’t try to police fiction? just don’t look at it if u don’t like it
17:00 NOT THE SMARTSCHOOLBOY JUMPSCARE 😭😭😭😭😭😭
13:44 hating a victim for something that theyre abuser is doing is kind of wild tbh, but idk what to expect from the bsd fandom
the biggest sign that someone doesnt have any real opinions and just regurgitates whatever they read online is not understanding that fiction being able to depict things we wouldnt do in real life is a good thing actually
Idk man, tell that to Neil Gateman when he wrote about a boyfriend sexually harassing his girlfriend.
Tell that to the people who draw child porn then go and groom children.
Saying that “fiction influences reality” IS an opinion, even if something is a common one. If you’re talking about flawed/incorrect opinions, “The earth is flat” is a very incorrect opinion yet it’s STILL a real opinion.
Even RESPECTFUL fiction that shows pedophilia (Lolita) was glamorized and used as justification for real predators. It was shown in fiction, yet pedophilia was a very real thing in real life.
You know, a few years ago I would've complained that shipping anime characters who are canonically underage was fine because most of them act or are treated in a way that isn't consistent with teenagers. However, I was also a fucking teenager, I was stupid as fuck. I didn't actually believe that, I was just a teenager finding other teenagers attractive and pretending I was older than I am online.
Now, I completely agree with you. I don't find these children attractive anymore because I'm older than them and attracted to women my own age now.
I Just find this video funny because you’re okay with killing and stalking which contains abusive relationship and I’d technically counts as a dark romance (and a dark ships too)
going to far as calling it “my favorite gay couple??”
I’m so confused
Also with your point about Miku i slightly disagree and think it depends on the scenario. As someone who had a crush on a 16 year old character that i fell in love with when i was literally 14 (and currently is still in love with as a now 20 year old)
My (and many others like me) feelings didn't go away and i understandably wanted to see that character grow like i did.
We as humans like to see things like us and understandably we would like to see characters that we've grown attached to grow and change along side us but since they're not alive they can't unless official work or fans age them up.
So I believe that if a canonically teenage character is put into an adult situation but is aged up to no longer be a teen and it has been long enough in real life since their first appearance that they would be an adult. It is okay and understandable.
And the whole canon age thing also completely disregards things like canon flash forward sequences, non-canon flash forward sequences or creators making non canon aged up versions.
Things like *insert characters* all grown up spin-offs or the many season finales where the characters are now shown as adults usually because the audience has grown up.
Or let's bring up miku as an example again grandma/old lady Miku
But since cannotically for majority of the show they've been underage would you still fault a person for now s3xualizing the adult version?
Also teenage anime character's do often look like adults and this can be proven when showing them to people who have never watched it, so would you automatically fault them for thinking the character is attractive?
Also i shouldn't have to say this but being physically attracted to prepubescent characters or characters made to look prepubescent is 100% wrong always
I agree with some stuff from the video and some not, about Hatsune Miku, I get shes 16 (it depends since in some medias her age is 18 like bunny hole) but when you look at her she looks unrealistic, big eyes and small nose. People call sailor mars a waifu and shes 16 but if you just look at her she has big eyes and a small nose. Anime character's dont look realistic. Granted people who make waifu teir lists arent as degenerate as proshippers. It's just not real, I don't get tryna apply real world logic to fiction
This whole situation reminds me of how my unrestricted access to the internet made me dive into yaoi and i developed a very warped sense of reality of being gay meant and believed how it was portrayed was what it was. (If yall know anything about old school yaoi, yall know how bad it is 😭😭) it wasn’t until someone who drew ships of some characters I liked on instagram called someone out in their asks for having ‘as long as it’s gay it’s okay’ mindset because it wasn’t ok. That’s what made me step back a bit and I was like ‘oh.. OH’ I still think back to that, shits haunting.
The exception to the thing about the "brother sister" joke is that one coffee advert which was DEFINITELY incest. 😂
Im gay (cheerful/fun)
Hi gay, I'm dad!
@Uragan00829 dad? You're finally back from getting milk? Oh dad it's been so long.. i.. i 😭
@ Oh right it's me boy good to see...
God damn it I forgot to buy something, stay there I'll be here in a minute okay?
@@Uragan00829 Nooooo, I'll go get it, you stay. (Locks you into the basement :3)
@ (When you check the basement after the while he's not there)
I dont care about darker themes in fiction when it isnt fetishization or romanticization. But people dont realize that darkshipping is ALWAYS that, as that is what shipping is entirely.
Fiction may not affect reality in the “Reach out and touch your face” way, but it affects reality and reality uses it enough to the point where the type of fiction you enjoy can infact say alot about your interest, fantasies, and if your weird.
i think that the arguement that fiction doesnt affect reality is really stupid because if youre using it as a coping mechanism then its clearly affecting you
are you stupid? something making you feel a certain way isn’t affecting reality, its affecting your feelings. a dead dog in a movie doesnt affect REALITY because it doesnt make an actual dog die, it can however make you feel sad.
so is a writer voluntarily making the decision to affect reality by writing a story about a dog being killed, something not condoned in real life? of course not, thatd be stupid. is he choosing to write something that will cause the reader to feel a certain emotion? yes, thats not the same thing.
think about if you’d hold the affecting reality argument to anything besides erotica, do you hate gta for glorifying vehicle theft and making it out to be fun? most likely not unless you are a mom from the 2000s
@@madimew i actually agree with you i think i just phrased my comment wrong,, what i meant to say was that i agree that fiction affects reality in its ability to evoke an emotion so strong of the audience and maybe even affect how they may think about certain things, not their actions,, my bad
might i also add that if say someone were to use shipping as a coping mechanism then yes i think it is affecting them if it makes them feel better about something
Also…….stuff like propaganda and Jim Crow
0:56 a persons perceived reality is often more important than the actual reality
Totally unrelated to the overall topic, but I was in the MHA fandom for a while and I'm not sure I ever heard KiriBaku referred to as "Pop Rocks." That's honestly adorable.
One thing that irks me is that while it's still very much terminally online (and I will stand by this), the whole discourse is just an invitation for a lot of bad faith arguments popping from either side.
Tons of weird reactionaries on the "pro" side who use people's aversion to loli/shotacon as "the woke West hating on based Japan" as if not wanting to see sexualised fictional children makes you some "triggered sjw".
On the other, you have genuine moral puritans on the "anti" side who jump to ANOTHER slippery slope (more of a cliff tbh) and use the prevalence of toxic yaoi/yuri to refer to LGBT folks as "degenerates" or "groomers" just because of media romanticising same-gender couples in toxic/wide age gap relationships. The Boyfriends/refrainbow hate train also gave transphobes the opportunity to invalidate the author's identity as a trans man by claiming that he is a "girl fetishising mlm relationships".
Which is why this whole discourse surrounding fiction feels less like a discussion on how problematic elements should be handled in media and more one side trying to claim a superficial sense of "superiority" over the other side. Neither end up solving any problem and the people who are affected by real world abuse/grooming do not receive any help by people who'd rather win an online debate.
TL;DR Proship discourse has opened the gates for bad faith arguments while accomplishing next to nothing to help victims in this back and forth bullshit.
I think proship antiship debate is dumb but I’ll hear u out
Edit: I’m still anti censorship, still believe that dark topics have a place in media (if not actively promoting the idea that it’s morally right in the plot) and I think people with those disgusting fetishes should keep it to themselves
@@superpandaidol_3 dark topic media should be targeted towards mature audiences. I think the main issue comes from underage audiences are consuming this. (This is where I should say it's the parent's fault).
@@superpandaidol_3 YES. Keep that shit to yourself, something I’m seeing plenty of people who think rape is hot not grasp.
I love writing dark topics, pedophilia, necrophilia, cannibalism,
Murder, rape, and human trafficking are all things I love writing about, but never in a SEXUAL or glamorous light.
The characters are still reprehensible, they’re never shown as romantic except in their own eyes.
Lolita is an amazing book that creeped me the fuck out and made my skin itch while never feeling sexual or disrespectful. Those Lolita movies are an absolute scorn on the author’s legacy.
@@wibs0n68 It's the parent's fault for not monitoring their kid's online activity, and the anti-shippers for making a crusade out of it, deliberately shoving adult material in children's faces while screaming "look at how disgusting this is!!!", while also having huge rings of "concerned adults" taking those same kids aside to groom them. Anytime a pro-shipper actually points this out, we get shouted down, and videos like this will embolden them, while also shielding the actual peds from harm because they know what buzzwords antis like to hear.
i use art to vent my trauma, and to do that, it doesn’t require drawing fictional characters in situations that are widly inappropriate if they were real people. i get people cope in different ways, thats fine and dandy, but i am so so so SO sick of people using the blanket excuse of “This is just my vent art”
Like if that’s how your venting, you need therapy
good for you? if you find someone’s art weird just block and move on? art doesn’t always need to be sanitised and easily digestible
@@lualas See, that's the problem. They *can't* do that. The very idea that one can ignore and move the hell on is alien to them.
@@ville-c4u THIS ONE IS A TROLL. Avoid it.
@@lualasart’s going to be judged, whether the person likes it or not.
@ never said otherwise?
I was so disgusted by just the few images of the Jinx manga, I can't believe some people read it and find it romantic/hot
Yeah theres no way you can be normal AND actively love shipping kids with adults 😭😭
well, your side isnt much better. ive seen antis shipping REAL kids with REAL predators because "its funny" or some horseshit, and yet you guys still claim yourselves as """normal."""
"rules for thee but not for me" i suppose
I define an adult as anyone 21 or older. Anyone who is old enough to vote, serve on jury duty, and drink alcohol in the USA is an adult. I do not approve of shipping adults over the age of 20 with anyone under the age of 20.
However, large age gap relationships between consenting adults are fine by me as long as the participants first met when they were both adults. My definition of a healthy appropriate relationship is the same as what the BDSM community defines as good: As long as the sexual relationship is safe, sane, and consensual, then it’s fine by me.
Children cannot consent, and they are harmed by CSA, so I would never ship an adult with a child in a sexual manner.
@@knucklepilled aye aiya I never said I'm on THAT side of the shipping spectrum either 😭 id say I'm in the good middle as in I'm too tired to care and just scroll if I don't like something
@ hate to break it to ya but thats just the REAL meaning of proship. no matter how much you think its gross or even immoral you do NOT waste your precious time hating and curate your fandom experience. you could also just say youre a "dont like dont read" person if you dont like proship
@@knucklepilledchat am i an anti for thinking that people who fantasize touching kids are weird or am i just a normal person
Okay, here's my stance as someone who has been on proship Tumblr.
It is okay to not like proshippers for what they ship, you don't owe people an explanation for your shipping discourse stance. You don't have to accept them or like them or interact with them. What's not okay is harassing them for what they ship. Also both proshippers and antishippers have done really bad things to each side. What we really need to be on the lookout for are the abusers, groomers, and predators in those communties.
And yes, fiction DOES affect reality, but not on a 1 to 1 basis. Simply consuming fiction isn't gonna harm you, but if you continuously consume certain fiction and it starts taking a toll on you, that's when you need to take a break or get help. If you consume fiction and think it's okay in real life, then you need to get help, this shit is not okay in real life. In addition, fiction CAN be used for harm, but that does not justify censorship, it just means we need to restrict this from people who are impressionable. Also content warnings and tags exist.
In addition, YOU are responsible for curating your online experience, that means filtering out any tags, blocking people that make you uncomfortable, and tagging your stuff properly. Don't like? don't read, it's that simple. And if you think proshippers are ACTUALLY doing harm, please report them.
Shazimei, I love your vids, but I have to disagree with you on this one. You calling the creator of Boyfriends a proshipper was a red flag on your LGBTQ+ video, and as I have heard, proshippers have been accused of being groomers just like the LGBTQ+ community.
Also I highly reccomend checking these sources:
proshipresources.carrd.co/
drive.google.com/drive/folders/12eleMSs7sj_g4Wy6jbArnNq_POJyzo9l
freedom-of-fanfic.tumblr.com/fandomfaq
Let proshippers do what they want, as long as they are not harming people. They stand for anti-harassment and freedom of expression, not normalizing taboo subject matter to minors (oh, and some of them have minors dni).
I cannot change your opinion, but I can give my insight as someone who has been in the proship community on Tumblr.
Thank you for the nuance here!
Comparing queer people to people who fantasize ABOUT KIDS is incredibly distasteful and i hope the fact that you said that sits with you at night. What the actual hell.
comparing proshippers to ppl who are part of the LGBTQ+ community is really gross btw!
you have to understand people call proshippers groomers because there are lots of proship communities where kids have been actually groomed - i saw a comment by someone who experienced that, and I've seen many more. on the other hand, lgbt are called groomers because some people can't stomach the fact that a kid can be gay or trans
@@narwhalocean791there are groomers in every community. I see a concerning amount of people who are actively anti ship get outed as groomers. Theres also both straight and gay, cis and trans groomers. What we need to be talking about is ACTUAL grooming, not accusing people we know nothing about individually of being groomers just because of a community they’re in.
What rlly peeves me is when they make the argument that "Fiction doesnt affect reality" but then turn around and say "i use it to cope!!!" so it clearly does...
12:29 i swear everytime i look for fanfics to read on ao3 i see at least one inc3st fic and its so insane to me!!!
I ship air with my lungs.
I'll escort myself out that door.
In and out? 😏
@SuperMonaLisaBros Exactly. 😉
Lack of consent isn’t sexy when it’s happening to you in real life. I speak from too much experience, unfortunately.
the only problem i have with this video is you claiming pirates don't exist, cause they do they have existed since colonization and are still a big problem in the seas due to the difficulty of prosecution