Hot take but I think humanizing rapists and abusers in media is a good thing. When in an abusive relationship, it is so easy to feel like the person you're with couldn't be abusive, because you've seen them be human. You've seen them show empathy and sympathy, you know about the things in their past that haunt them. If your entire exposure to abuse in media is pure villains, with nothing "redeemable" it is really hard to see someone you care about as an abuser. It's important to approach it carefully, and there will always be fans that romanticize abuse. Even so, it's important to be able to show "this is a person with some good traits and reasons someone would stay with them" while also showing that their actions are unjustifiable
This is why Mouthwashing is a really good game, it forces you to experience things from the perspective of the rapist in such a way that you as the viewer have to face the similarities between you and him. People act like acknowledging rapists as humans is the same as excusing their actions.
Holy moly, someone that understands! We need content that isn't afraid to show good things about bad people. We need people to think a little harder about the nuances of a situation. It can't be all black and white all the time.
Exactly. Older portrayals of SA typically make perpetrators either strangers or ugly psychopaths a “real man couldn’t possibly relate to” which is not only ableist, but also ignores the gendered dynamics within society that contribute to such behaviors. Like the average man, or hell, the average person couldn’t commit such a crime because they’re not “insane.” Yet a significant portion of SA tend to be perpetrated by acquaintances or partners which I’m glad more media portrayals like Mouthwashing are acknowledging (i need more recommendations pls i cant keep glazing this game)
I think alot of people mistake "writing about your experiences" as a coping mechanism with "romanticizing your experiences" as a coping mechanism, it is in fact a therapeutic thing for alot of writers/artist who had to deal with things such as domestic abuse or SA for example, to end up in some form writing about it but there is a very very clear and giant diffrence between that and romanticizing it, there is a giant diffrence between writing those things as those things and putting a bunch of bows and gilitter around it and attempting to normalize those gross things to people especialy younger people while proshipping is gross as hell and my empathy towards proshippers is very tightly limited I cant help but hope all those people some day will find a way to cope with their experiences that isnt so wrong
Yeah, I'm pretty sure when most people write stories about their trauma anyways, they usually make it very clear that it's bad? Not like, romanticize it like proshippers tend to do.
Yea, i know people say proshippers use it as a way to cope but how on earth are they supposed to get help if all they do is nonstop harass the people who reject their disgusting fantasies trauma or not? Plus like 99% of the people who say "fiction doesnt affect reality!!!" are incredibly stupid as you can just do a google search and find actual examples of fiction influencing reality. if you dont want to take the 3 seconds into looking up examples: After the movie Jaws was released, there was an increase in ilegal shark hunting and the creator hates it because it has created the "bloodthirsty man-eater" stereotype of sharks we know today. Real men ((sometimes women but very rarely because theyre usually the victims of the violence in films)) mimick what they see in P0rn because they think the woman will like it, choking has also became more normalized from an extreme no mans land thing to just barely "kinky" Real people watch adult films of what theyre into and engage in content that usually contains their type, so i dont understand the "its just a drawing" thing either, yeah its just a drawing, but if you chronically look at black/asian women in freaky situations im gonna assume you have a thing for black/asian women, its no different from children and they dont seem to get that. I wouldn't let a l0licon near a child the same way i wouldnt let an otaku/kpop stan near my asian friends. P0rn has and is continuing to normalize stepsiblingXstepsibling ships because "its not tehcnically related!!" and its taboo
@wafflezz-are-sick people are shipping lyney and freminet?? I've never really like kaeluc because even though they aren't blood related they were raised as brothers so its weird and lyney and I assume freminet are in the same boat, like it's weird BTW I didn't read it properly I didn't realise you meant lyney and freminet
When I was younger I was taken advantage of- that lead me down a rabbit hole of intentionally getting myself gr00med by older men, over and over just to be praised. It ruined me, made me so depressed I tried to end it 8 times by the time I was 13. While I was never a "proshipper", I had the tendencies. I'm so glad I got myself out of there, and that I never harassed anyone calling things like that out. This is a real thing that happens, it's not something to romanticize. I live in fear every day that cp of me will be leaked- because, unfortunately, it exists in the internet. I'm sorry for everyone else that has to go through similar things- we'll be okay.
I think my least favourite thing about the proshipper/anti discourse is how black and white people make it. I made a post on a fanfiction subreddit explaining that I felt the community was glorifying the dark content more than celebrating the community as a whole, and therefore pushing people out if they don't want to see darkship content. I also brought up how often proshippers incorrectly tag their work or intentionally insert it in places where it is not wanted, like putting Kaeluc smut in a ragbros tag or trying to turn a post joking about Amber and Collei being siblings into one about them dating despite the OP explaining that he is not comfortable with that sort of thing. I was frustrated with how the subreddit constantly ragged on "antis" and joked about how they're all puritans, without considering the fact that the majority of people in fandom aren't comfortable with darkshipping. Despite me explaining that I agree with using fiction to explore these themes and have enjoyed dark medias like DDDNE fics or think some darkships can be a good way to play with character dynamics as well as reiterating that I think the fighting between them is stupid and I just want everyone to be able to be comfortable in the community, I got violently downvoted. Everyone in the comments was telling me I was an idiot, an anti who didn't belong and should leave, that I was morality policing and it's my fault that I was seeing stuff I didn't want to despite blocking every tag under the sun. I was harassed out of that subreddit and have since left all fanfiction related communities because I did not feel comfortable in places where people are encouraged to romanticise and glorify abusive behaviours, ignore people's boundaries, tell people that "adopted families aren't real families so it isn't incest" or weaponise cultures to downplay people's discomfort with harmful topics. By that point, I realised it wasn't a me problem. It wasn't my fault I wasn't blacklisting enough words or blocking enough accounts. It was the community being more concerned with celebrating their freedom to write sibling smut than making sure they followed their own "values" and making sure it was a safe place for everyone within it.
i think i know what subreddit you're talking about, i don't interact with that one for the same reason. but, it's also reddit, and i've noticed how some reddit communities don't like critical thinking.
Not to mention that they're very staunchly against DNIs, saying they're childish... I don't get it, WHY do you want people to be exposed to upsetting things when they don't want to? Apparently, if you don't want to interact with someone who makes triggering content, they'd rather you have to see that content than them to be bothered to read a simple statement in a bio...
@ It's ridiculous. They say that it's your responsibility to avoid subjects that upset you, but then go out of their way to bother you because you have a DNI list. They act like they're the victims when people are uncomfortable with the content they make, but then insist on putting it in very visible places instead of adding tags that people can block without getting rid of stuff they do want to see.
Media that shows you that your trauma wasn't your fault and lets you sympathize with the victim, and thus yourself, can be powerful. Sadly, I think too many writers identify with the predator and make the victimizer into the sympathetic character.
As someone who has multiple characters who are victims of abuse, especially SA, I can promise you that I love them with all my heart and despise the characters I made that hurt them. Even the main villains go after abusers specifically, and are really good dads to a boy that was neglected and semi-adopted daughter who was SA’ed by her father. I love every character of that family, and I love the daughter, Bee, with all my heart and gave her the happy ending she deserved. Same with the son, though the villain dads do both die, which sucks since the one is my personal favorite OC-
Im so glad we can talk about this without wishing harm on these kids. As a survivor of CSA, I understand how it feels to seek refuge in morbid fantasy. Ive learned the healthy difference between something romanticizing abuse rather than actually coping. I think that in private, consensual scenarios with someone you trust, engaging in that kind of fantasy can feel very reclaiming and freeing. I ALSO know that engaging with that kind of fantasy on a public platform ESPECIALLY AS AN IMPRESSIONABLE KID, Is a fast track to receiving attention from adults who want to exploit something that is meant to be safe and reclaiming into making that child ACTUALLY relive those experiences. Understanding sexuality and engaging with it healthily is something that is learned with time and care, and you should KNOW how to healthily engage with your own sexuality before putting yourself in sexual situations wether that be on social media be in private. these children don't truly understand the nature of the media that they're consuming because they are CHILDREN.
I feel like this easily ties into kink/ bdsm as well. Sometimes It is hard to see the line between working with a traumatic scenario to help your partner feel safe and heal in a safe environment (especially with, as an example dd/lg, hard s/d, heavy degradation and cnc) and just redoing the same abusive and dangerous behaviours that lead to them feeling this way. Even tho bdsm relationships are supposed to be 18/20+ consensual and safe, it might not always be good for the person re acting their trauma. That’s why communication and self awareness is so important in it. This is why abusive doms should be locked up.
It always really bothers me when media shows something really wrong and doesn't treat it as such, or even glorifies it - I've noticed it in anime more than other media I've seen and it why i like saiki k so much since it points out the common tropes and shows them more in the lense of 'real life' in that it acknowledges when something is weird
Less severe example, but I hate how one of the more common cartoon plots is two (or more) people getting stuck in an elevator (considering i went through the trauma myself), and how this plot seemingly spiked in popularity after what happened to Nicholas White- a man trapped in an elevator for two days. It’s even gotten to the point where my trauma was used as a glorified writing prompt because my teacher hadn’t realized it actually happened to people along with an extremely out of touch commercial I saw a *lot* over the holiday season
I like how the show can joke about Makato, but still portray him and creepy and something that makes Teruhashi uncomfortable (whether she knows his feelings or not). While we still have the purple haired creep (I haven’t seen the show in a few years, I forget him), it’s still looked down upon, especially since Saiki himself seems to be sex repulsed in some way, and just is the straight man of his own show.
@@ShadeATV it annoys me to no end whenever theres clear examples like this, which fiction affecting reality and vice versa, and people will STILL insist that "fiction doesnt affect reality!!" just ask them what they think of sharks and itll tell you everything
I hate proshipping because when I was a kid, I used to read non-con as a way to cope. I needed to vent, I needed to feel like someone related, but I didn't have any friends, so I read angst on ao3 most of the time. But when it came to that specific thing, it was awful, because thanks to proshippers, it was so hard to find a non-con story that DIDN'T glorify or romantizice the situation instead of treating it as the horror it was. I wanted to read angst, pure angst, but I just never found it. It ended triggering me when I accidently ended up reading tropes like "dubious consent" or "gray rape" and I was so disgusted I stopped trying entirely.
Tbh those tags shouldn’t even be a thing, dubious consent is so stupid, a person either consents or does not consents to sex, and don’t even get me started on gray rape cause what the fuck does that even mean? Killing is something that can have a grey area but sa can’t be justified in any way
One thing that bothers the hell out of me, so much, to no end, is that I feel kids as they get older, they’re not being taught literary analysis. Like, it’s not gonna stop incidences like this, but I feel if children were taught literary analysis, I feel they’d be less likely to fall into the holes of not being able to distinguish between depicting traumatic situations, and romanticizing traumatic situations. For example, I used to make vent pieces about parental abuse, cause I was abused by a step-parent, and my other parents helped me learn the signs of abuse, and I got stronger. I don’t romanticize going through abuse by framing it as “something that makes you stronger”, cause that makes it sound good. In reality, it’s more like Saw, where more often than not, people are left worse off than before, and it’s the process of healing that makes you stronger, not the abuse itself. Stab wounds don’t make the skin thicker, it’s scars.
Kids shouldn't be surfing the internet without supervision; they need to be kept an eye on. Parents who don't support their children's mental health have no business raising them, period. It really grinds my gears when characters with PTSD are played for laughs or to upset the hero, while their actual struggles get ignored. But, let's be clear, there's nothing wrong with liking those killer characters like Hannibal (from the ABC show) or Michael Myers. I appreciate them for their looks or behavior, not for their actions. Killing is terribly wrong, and I sure as hell wouldn't want to marry a killer.
Yeah a huge problem with kids online these days is there's no spaces for them to properly talk about the media they like without creeps going to their dm's
2:47 plus like ofc they’re going to be nice and welcome you into their community because you’re apart of the community, they’re not going to be mean to someone in the community. I’m a swiftie and only like one time I was hated on by another swiftie, but does that mean it’s not an extremely toxic fan base? OF COURSE NOT
It irks me to no end when my aunt says that kids are doing more bullying because they show it on TV and movies. Children see, children do? Yes, of course. Children see that thing is bad? Absolutely. In most media, the bully gets their comeuppance and their acts are portrayed as bad. Social media influencers aren't portrayed as bad when they act like total douchers in public and still have a large following. Censoring only exacerbates an issue. Portrayal is what matters. Think of landmines. Now, censor everything about landmines. You can't talk about them, you can't warn anyone about them, and you can't explain what to do about them. When someone inevitably steps on a landmine, what are they to do? They can't say anything about the landmine because they aren't allowed to. Choosing not to talk about landmines isn't going to do anything about the minefield. In fact, an article was written on exactly this in regard to suicide and The Wall. The author refuted the idea that teens become suicidal by listening to the album because of its themes of suicide. The author retorts by essentially claiming that anyone who listened to the album knows that it's all about combating and overcoming suicidal ideation and, if anything, has helped countless teens overcome such ideation. Full article here: www.nytimes.com/1984/12/15/opinion/l-censorship-is-not-a-cure-for-teen-age-suicide-153578.html Yes, that article is from 1984. Adults have been plugging their ears for more than four decades.
I always felt like kids bully people because the bullying on TV wasn't accurate and didn't represent what victims actually go through. I had a very specific idea of bullying in elementary school, and thought that I wasn't bullying anyone by "roasting" them, because I wasn't shoving them in lockers or stuffing their faces in toilets like bullies on TV did. I would claim that I had never gotten bullied, because I didn't know that my teachers harassing me and lying to my mom about it was bullying, or that kids making school shooter jokes about me was bullying.
That's such a dumb argument lol, on your aunt's part, like yeah media can and has influenced behaviors in reality, but children don't bully other kids because it's seen in tv. Bullying has always existed, and it's just an easy way to place blame on an unrelated target rather than getting to the root of the issue. Which is apparently the main issue overall-people pretend and claim to care about certain topics, but they never actually care to get to the root of an issue. Instead of checking for a poor home life or bullying in school, they jump and clutch onto the vagueness of "scary mental illnesses" or video games. When it's someone calling out another person for using their kids to make lowkey pedo bait content, they're the ones attacked for "seeing the kid in a sexual way" when it's just basic awareness and child safety. Because confronting the root of the problem takes time and effort, and in a lot of cases could change a lot of things that have been normalized or even seen as morally correct. Again, that takes effort, and nobody whos more focused on "appearing good" actually wants to do any good. Nobody who wants to look like a hero or a martyr will actually go out of their way with others to make things safer, prevent more cases of csa and abuse, etc etc. That is true virtue signaling, not whatever people think virtue signaling is nowadays like putting a content warning or smth.
The thing that frustrates me about the whole ‘fiction =/= reality’ thing is it erases all the nuance of fiction as a tool. Propaganda is often heavily rooted in promoting a specific type of fiction to support a certain narrative, and media that focuses on eliciting strong emotions absolute affects how people respond to certain topics in reality (such as shark culling greatly reducing the numbers of many shark species after the release of Jaws in the 70s, or clowns being associated with fear and murder after Steven King’s IT released and had multiple adaptations) If fiction never affects reality in any tangible way, then why have we fought so hard to have proper representation of historically oppressed groups in fiction? Why have people used specific pieces of media as justification/inspiration for hate crimes? To act like there’s absolutely no link is irresponsible at minimum, and actively harmful and dangerous at worst because it makes you vulnerable to manipulation tactics. The key is finding balance between taking everything at face value and ignoring any red flags present in fiction
another example, a lot of people to this day still seem to romanticize the 1950's purely off of the propaganda/commercials/media at the time, despite things being pretty damn shitty back then, especially for women.
propaganda is not fiction... It's literally meant to make you believe it's real, 99.9% of fictional media is not trying to make you believe it's real. By definition propaganda is not meant to be fiction.
What's the point of caring about representation of people in fiction, it's LITERALLY not real. They aren't real people. "Why have people used specific pieces of media as justification/inspiration for hate crimes? " It's literally mental illness, thats why. These people think fiction is reality and take stuff from it and act on it in reality.
I would also like to add that Jurassic Park had made people think that the dinosaurs that were in said movie originated from the jurassic era despite being off for a LONG time period
I have a hot take: you can age up characters AS LONG AS it's NOT for sexual purposes. Like if you just want to show off what you think they'd look like as an adult. If it's not harming anyone and does not perpetuate harm, then I think it's okay. But again only in a COMPLETELY SFW CONTEXT
My take is go wild do your things but make sure to properly tag and hide those medias from minors. Everythings good as long as no real people were harmed or traumatized
This was my stance for a while too, but I came to realize this standard is honestly a little arbitrary and hard to hold people to; even yourself. Once I noticed how common it was in canon to show characters as adults in order to write about them going through more adult experiences (ie having kids and whatnot) it occurred to me that forbidding the same in fandom was maybe a bit too paranoid. I'm still very wary of "aged-up" nsfw, because I think a lot of times people aren't really actually drawing characters as adults so much as they are just claiming that to shove off criticism; so now I usually say, as long as they put effort into portraying this version of the character as meaningfully different from their child self then I think it's alright (ie, drawing them with a more developed body). Granted, I'm not a part of fandoms like BNHA where I hear this problem is really rampant, I'm more familiar with the Homestuck fandom where postcanon adult fics are a very common avenue of smut. (That being said, I still think that aging up a canon child character to ship them with a canon adult character is mondo creepy. Definitely doesn't come from the same place as just running the calendar a decade or two to see what's going on then.)
10:38 Ugh I'm so glad you're talking about this. I get weird looks all the time because I 'enjoy' (if you could call it that) Light x Misa. I wouldn't even say I ship them, more so I just see it as a portrayal of a manipulative relationship. In the same way people might 'enjoy' a story that includes a character ending up in a bad partnership just for the sake of it being a well-written portrayal. Such as Harley Quinn and The Joker for example. They obviously are not good for eachother and Joker is a psychopath, so that makes the audience root for Harley to be able to escape from his toxicity.
Yeah, Light and Misa is pretty good, just Light is a pretty bad guy. Y'know? Which is why I think people tend to gravitate towards L x Light, unfortunately. I myself had shipped Lawlight in the past and yeah, while I do still see how people could ship them, it's just a bit weird in my eyes nowadays.
As I writer, I personally never understand the concept of having a child be shipped with an adult. I have two characters who were SA'd as kids and literally never in my mind did I go "oml that's so cute!" I really wanna see the writers who do *that* on a watch list.
@Chester0rSomething fr tho. literally everyone in my class (who read my ocs backstory) was damn disgusted at the abuser, not one person thought it was cute, so how are there writers who think it is
I hate those kinds of ships! OMG they ruin stories for me if it’s not treated as seriously as it should be. It half the reason I tend to shy away from enemies to lovers stories. Most of them glorify or romanticize a toxic relationship that MIGHT stop being toxic and it’s like ew, gross, get this out of my face please!!
same, a few of my ocs have sexual trauma and it is NOT meant to be 'cute' or just a 'part of their character!!!' no its sexual abuse. also when i said this before someone said "multiple? i bet you get off to that." babe what
It's so fucking gross like I could never imagine myself getting off to my child characters having sexual or romantical relations with adults (and ppl who get of to it need some help srsly)
my only issue with anti proshippers is that the term proship sounds too broad. so broad to the point that i thought anti proshipers were anti shipping in general. like i was comissioning an artist once and i saw in their tos no proship. so i asked them what it ment and they just decribed shipping. so it it wasent till recently that i figured out it wasent pro as in pro and conn and was problematic shipping.
Or that people will label anything as proship if it's slightly "problematic." I'm not a proship, I'm honestly closer to an anti, but people have called my ships proships because they had age gaps (the younger one in the ship was 32), or were toxic (which is sort of up to interpretation. They k-ll each other but they have infinite respawn). Or see exploring a toxic relationship as romanticizing it.
@gaywizard-u7v even though that's definitely annoying, I'm pretty sure most of them are just younger people who haven't fully grasped the meaning yet. Still annoying and sometimes leading to hate mobs (if any tbh), but at least the misunderstanding is somewhat reasonable
As far as I'm aware, that is one of the biggest issues. I wasn't online from 2013 and before, i was both too young and the only things i cared about was ihascupquake and venturiantale, but from a lot of older internet users I've heard that proship did initially mean pro-shipping. As in shipping is good and fun and a valid form of enjoying the og media. But as time went on and discussions supposedly evolved, to a growing number of people, "proship" then meant "problematic shipping". So in other words, you could come across two different users who are "proship" and they could mean vastly different things by that. And unfortunately, at least based on my experience there's a lot more "antishippers" in the case of shipping in general, who are easily able to look "mature and coherent" by pretending all shipping is is enabled and romanticized toxic relationships. People that are unironically mad at people who harmlessly ship, no matter if it's straight or gay, canon or non canon. I think with those antishippers, people entirely against shipping, are mostly unreasonable and irrational-the only point they can (sometimes) have is bringing up how a lot of shippers end up confusing headcanons with canon or completely mischaracterizing a character. ...i went off track but ykwim
my therapist never recommended me romanticizing my trauma and says its actually quite a bad idea who are these mfs seeing LMAO edit: elaboration perhaps: ive had a romanticizing pattern of thinking about myself before as well. i was never open about it (which is something some people can learn from, it seems), but it did eventually lead to me undermining my own experiences and leaving me feeling worse off (like. doubting my own validity as a person for things that extended beyond abuse, which i feel like isnt discussed as much as it should be. romanticizing anything bad you have experienced/struggle with is bound to lead you somewhere similar, i'm sure). when i spoke to her about this, she said she has seen similar cases and agrees that it was not a good path to go down. outwardly showcasing your romanticization of these experiences of yours can also hurt others who have dealt with similar issues as you, whether they are in that cycle of thinking themselves or not. similar thoughts regarding these things will still creep into my mind, but i know not to feed into them. there is a huge difference between projecting your experiences onto fiction (which i would recommend, in fact, as long as it is done so safely, is not made accessible to the wrong people (children, those who can't handle the topic, etc), and you are considerate), and making unnecessary light of them edit 2: bot core 😂😂
Right like if a therapist is saying to ship problematic ships and engage with proship online spaces to help you cope with your trauma they probabl aren't that good of a therapist
I dont think she was advocating for harassment of pro-shippers, they were just stating that it can be harmful and that it's more beneficial to shy away from that kind of content that they got into for one reason or another. Seeking professional help should be a top priority.
I got into that pipe-line as a teen, because I didn't really understand why it's wrong. My brain always operated in a way that I needed to get a proper reason behind a rule or a law. Nobody at the time really explained it to me. I guess I was lucky not to get directly groomed by someone, but still...I wish I never saw or read some of that stuff.
"Well only someone stupid would fall for this!" Yeah... that's why we have consent ages, and things in place to help protect kids. (When they're upheld, that is.)
A friend of mine had an interesting comparison: proshipping is like having a nest of termites at the edge of your yard. It may not be an issue in the beginning but if left unchecked for too long it will cause problems down the road.
Meanwhile 90% of the people in the Black Butler fandom being completely okay with shipping a traumatized 13 year old with a 1000+ year old (26 in human years) who is tormenting him and wants to eat his soul: EDIT!: ⚠️‼️ALSO IF YOU SHIP SEBACIEL PLEASE DO NOT REPLY TO THIS I DONT HAVE TIME FOR YOUR DRAMA‼️⚠️
NAW BECAUSE THIS SHIT WEIRDED ME OUT oml my older sister loves Black Butler and she has art of the two of them and I've never asked her about it (the art isn't inherently sexual, romantic, etc. They're just there) but I've never gotten around to it. I'm praying she doesn't ship them because eugh...
@@TheUnderNerd FRRR LIKE I STOPPED WATCHING BLACK BUTLER BECAUSE I WAS SO DISGUSTED LIKE EACH TIME I WATCH IT I GET REMINDED OF SEBACIEL AND I THOUGHT FOR A MINUTE THAT I WAS THE VILLAN SINCE MOST PEOPLE SHIP THEM
I watched your last proshipping video while I ironed my school clothes, so I feel like ironing my uniform while watching this one is tradition at this point😅
People complain about representations of women and minority groups in fiction. It should NOT be any different when you’re justifiably weirded out by pdfilia and SA being romanticized. Media should be freely criticized about any of its aspects, cause it doesn’t fucking exist just to spawn new pretty anime girls to look at. Ofc though, sending death threats isn’t justifiable at all and there is only a certain amount of “critical media analysis” you can do before it crosses the line into obsession fuelled by hatred, which is something a lot of antis do.
Comical video timing. Literally yesterday I stumbled across loli art of a character who was very explicitly stated MINOR. (on tumblr, which is probably to be expected atp) I've been down the rabbit hole ever since of proshippers, specifically the ones who try to justify paedophilia and all sorts of bullshit like that.
@M4t_P4tGTsometimes i mourn the fact that my six year old self never learned of tumblr or ao3 but then it's moments like these that make me thankful. Same for amino and discord as i got older, way too many people grew up and left those sites with trauma and it should probably be investigated
10:55 same with azumanga, there's this teacher called Kimura Sensei who is in love with high school girls, and he makes it very clear, and his design is unattractive and quite reluctant it is incredibly easy to portray stuff like this as creepy or bad (which is a good thing)
@@Wonderhoy-er it’s so easy to not romanticize something if you just put effort into it. Idk how people can say they aren’t trying to when they very clearly are… from experience that is, not saying everyone does
That may be true, but even if this can come off as a nitpick, i dont think it helps to only rely on "ugly characters" or whatnot to portray how something is bad or dangerous. I get it, it makes it easier and overtly clear, but that also comes with the consequence of dangeous behaviors such as assault or predation being attributed to looking "off", or different. After all in media such as anime, isn't a character's predatory or generally disgusting behavior able to be ignored by their "good looks"? It's also easy to dismiss that as an issue of age or intelligence, believing only children would see an ugly character being creepy and associate it with appearance, but it's not limited to children whatsoever. It shouldn't be used to foster paranoia of course (unless the intent of some creation is meant to represent that and a general fear of everyone), but it would help in showing how anybody could do bad. It isn't just the conventionally ugly fat character, with the cartoonish buck teeth or the greasy hair or "man boobs" or...idk, being a cat owner. Glasses, even. I'd say there's a lot of how beauty standards and discrimination in terms of appearance influences who's seen as a threat and who isn't, who's allowed to get away with more compared to who wouldn't even get the chance to imagine it. It's similar to the idea that women can't harm men or people in general, and therefore a woman can never grape somebody-sure there may be statistically more male grapists than female or nonbinary ones, but that doesn't mean it's only ever done by men. That could invalidate a lot of people who have been abused or assaulted by someone that wasn't a man...not like abuse victims want to/should be validated in the same way a person is validated for being smart or creative but you get ky point. Again, could be seen as a small nitpick and even though this comment is long i definitely have no intention of attacking you, just wanted to add some nuance to that.
He’s never expressed attraction to anybody, and while he can appreciate kindness from the woman who has a crush on him (specifically because he sees her as an equal human instead of being distracted by her sex appeal that she typically uses to turn people to stone) it doesn’t extend to being interested in her romantically, and canonically his “true love” is meat. So for those reasons he’s pretty much an aro/ace icon.
A lot of arguments I saw was ‘comparing proshipping to actual real life exploitation is wrong!!’ But I’ve NEVER seen anyone do that. Like of course real life exploitation is terrible and always worse than proshipping, but that does NOT make proshipping okay? Another thing being worse does not make anything else better. That’s like saying breaking a bone isn’t ’that bad’ because ‘well some people end up DYING!’
this isn't to defend proshippers, if anything what i'm about to say should add at least a bit more merit to my point here but as an ex-radical anti (i'm still an "anti-proshipper" so to say, i just don't argue online about it 24/7 because i'm a tax-paying adult now), i did used to have to call out other "antis" for threatening/wishing real SA onto proship minors to "make them understand" or, at best, accusing them of being actual offenders. yes, i think there is nothing sane or mentally healthy about consuming proship content- but i completely disagree that a 14 year old sexualizing a minor character as a way to sexualize themselves by proxy inherently makes them a real predator, much less do i believe they DESERVE to be harmed when, to parrot this video and 86 million others, most proship minors have obviously already been harmed. as much as it is a loud minority, it is still unfortunately it is a real phenomenon that hurts all of us in the end.
@@spiritsandsuchyeesh, I wouldn't expect anti-proshippers to go that far. Then again no matter what it is, no matter what's being argued over, a death or sa threat can always be said by anyone...the blessing and curse of superficial anonymity online. You would think being so staunchly against something that causes more harm than good would imply you understand why those kind of statements are just as wrong, but i guess not. If anything, I'd say the "i hope you never have to experience this" (in the context of a proshipper who hasn't been in a traumatic situation, but still) is a significantly better statement. But wishing violence so somebody "understands"? Backwards logic, you don't have to be a victim of something to know it's bad the same way you don't have experience being murdered to know murder is death.
No therapist would activly tell someone let alone a child to draw or fantasize about pdfila, grape, or sa to cope. If they are call the authorities immediately...
I was on twitter and accidentally came across a pro-ship account run by a minor. It frustrates me to no end how many minors get exposed to this stuff because their parents can't be bothered to moniter them as well as these creeps that take advantage of that.
I'm reminded of the discourse that came out during the "Do video games cause violence" panic. The studies at the time found that video games don't cause violence *but violent people are particularly attracted to violent games* which isn't to say that everyone who plays COD will take up firearm practice or that those who pay Fire Emblem will become egg-brained monarchists. But that is to say that those who like game hunting will probably like Game hunting simulators, or those who play guitar will probably like Guitar Hero. Yes, even if it's not at all like playing an actual guitar, it's the _subject_ itself the player enjoys. So, of course, someone who hasn't actually played guitar or partook in the open season but _wants to or is otherwise interested in exploring the subject_ will be more likely to play it. The same is true with proshipping, IMO. This is the time when I admit I don't know much about the specifics of this discourse. It's an interesting trench, surrounding a hill people are willing to die on, but I'm not interested in fully hopping in yet. Speaking of war, I personally loathe COD and anything realistically military. I hate how it's used by the US government as a recruiting tool. I hate how many people use it to fulfil their racist fantasies.Yet, in recent years, I've found that the only kind of person I've met who hates the military more than me were people who have actually joined and seen service. Minds are broken into a bolus by the chewing of the industrial, military complex of the US. They hate the same things as I do, but I *_know_* I don't understand it as they do, and I'm not malicious enough to challenge that. Yet, the only place where they can explore themselves and their feelings towards their experiences is in games like COD, where a safe simulation validates their experiences in a that saying " I hate the system too" hardly does. I think proshipping is a lot like COD. You get the kids & passersby who don't know what the horrors entail, yet are eager to play with what they've learned to understand further. You get the predators, waiting to groom any person, no matter their age or capabilities, into their horrific bidding. You get those who understand better than most people reading this and are just trying to get something, anything, that could tell them, " You saw what you saw. Your experience was real, and your emotions are valid." And finally, (the most common one in both spheres IMO), which is a mix of all three to varying degrees. The predator that wants to validate the trauma they've received by inflicting it on another. The kid who wants to be in a community with the same morbid interest. The victims who are *able* and wanting to shut down the predatory practices & teach the passersby. So on, and so forth, May you bring kindness
The Visions of V manga is what I use to cope occasionally. I struggle a lot with trying to just be a better person in general, and whenever I read it, it makes me feel a little better seeing V talk to Vergil at the end, knowing that it’s possible to overcome all of the shitty things you’ve been through in life. “Thou dost smile I sing the while Sweet joy befall thee.”
I used to call myself a "proshipper" on Twitter back when I was 14 because I misinterpreted it as multiship (Which is yknow. COMPLETELY DIFFERENT.) Fun times.
I dont have the age justification, i was also pretty teminally online (this was literally a year or two ago), but i also called myself a proshipper because i was annoyed by people who whined about shipping. This is why we dont use vague and broad names for nuanced issues lmao
I definitely think minors shouldn't interact with proshipper content because at younger ages, content like this can literally change their brain chemestry (Which his how kids get addicted to gore and other things). I think if Proshipping is still going to exist, it should exist offline and in private.
People really see alot of thing as black and white, they don't understand that in most cases "It depends". Is sad to see how people now think in absolutes when the world is so rich and diverse. Nuance. "Oh you don't like sweet potatoes, you must hate ALL POTATOES" mindset. Totally agree with the video.
0:28 if a therapist recommended proshipping content to me, that would fuck me up so hard. I tend to easily believe something is right if a good majority of people say it's right. I nearly believed incest and pedophilia were okay if both parties were "consenting" because that's all my ex would talk about. I also almost started to believe child like characters were attractive because people would keep talking about how attractive they were, and it made my sick that I almost fell down that rabbit hole.
when the heartstopper webcomic was first published on tapas in the mid-late 10's, it was very common for queer webcomics to have stuff like dubious consent and power imbalances and have it romanticized (because the "abuser" was hot or something), and heartstopper got a lot of praise for 1) having all the main couples have a healthy dynamic with communication and consent and 2) the one couple that DID contain these problematic tropes was NOT romanticized the netflix adaptation adds another layer to it by having the abuser actually try to apologize, but the victim doesn't accept the apology
Didnt know you were a therapist!! I don't know if this has ever happened but what would you do If like a patient found your channel if you wanna answer
People who talk about stories as if they are the most serious business in the world shouldn’t be taken seriously, regardless of which “side” they say they’re on. Real life problems are just so much bigger than they are capable of understanding.
@@heyitsnyixie_1559 the initial definition of the term proship - made by those in the community themselves - is "ship and let ship", nothing about romanticization as mentioned in the video (this is a more recent re-interpretation of the term post the...lots of discourse around it, as I understand it). therefore, by blocking someone whom you do not want to interact, you're indeed following the true meaning of the term. im not here to discuss anything i just like explaining to people the history behind stuff btw :D have a good day!
@@araven2472 ok, but you do understand that language evolves over time. Wouldn't say something is awful and mean it was good nowadays because no one uses it like that anymore. "proshiping" means you encourage or participate in shipping character in unethical relationships now, because that is the broadly understood definition of it. So, I'd really appretiate it if you didn't lump me in with those people becase I choose *not* to engage with them.
@@heyitsnyixie_1559 I wasn't particularly calling you a proshipper. And I get it, you and I have the same "way of dealing" with those things --- blocking and moving on! It's understandable you wouldn't want to be called or identified as something that carries bad fame nowadays. I was just explaining what the previous commenter meant 🦐
I'm not normally in favor of proshipping at all but when it comes to the coping side of it, I can kind of see it in this light. For the longest time being an SA survivor, I still found myself gravitating to SA NSFW. Not because I wanna assault someone but imagine my shoes as the victim. It's quite common for SA survivors to relive and even get aroused by that genre. I felt ashamed of it for so long but its more common than not and a means to live out the situation where you have more control of it. Context is key to be sure, but in my case, it was 100% for coping, not for nefarious reasons.
I have seen many people criticize that scene in adventure time for the exact opposite of what you said, many people felt that it didn't handle the situation seriously and was offensive to victims. Personally i feel like both parties are missing the point of that scene, i don't think finn was sa'd there, he was at a point in time where he felt numb to everything and was trying to find something to fill that void (kissing princesses) LSP expected more and pushed for more not knowing what state he was in (because lsp is selfish and only thinks about herself), finn didn't stop nor did he hate her after, he just continued to feel numb, and it's not like he couldn't or wouldn't fight back, LSP isn't really respected by most of the cast and finn has been shown to push off advances before from larger threats. Idk, maybe I'm just reading it wrong.
5:07 empathy isn’t as simple as excusal or justification of actions (no I’m not supporting the person in the argument) empathy is seeing the person as a human being and seeing there pain as understandable, one doesn’t have to justify someone’s actions to understand their pain, and empathy isn’t something people can just turn on and off. Anyway I still enjoyed the video.
One thing that frustrates me the most about what "proshippers" have to say is that I think most of them realize that what people are arguing against doesn't actually have to do with the depiction of abuse itself, it has to do with the romanticization of it. Believing that you shouldn't be writing about those things at all is a relatively niche stance in this discourse, and, yes, it's mostly held by younger teens who aren't clear on the nuance of the situation. But proshippers know that if they acknowledge that, then they also have to come to terms with the fact that the thing they're defending isn't just "dark fiction", it's pornography (ie art made specifically to titilate) written about children and incest. Which sounds a lot less noble than being "anti-censorship", because it is. It's really refreshing to see people on the other side of the argument like Patricia Taxxon just come out and say, yes, what I'm defending is incest porn. Because even if I disagree and think that's a really dangerous thing to be enjoying, at least she's being honest about her argument. I don't necessarily think it's bad to write graphic fiction about sa and csa, and I think even pornographic fiction about same have the potential to be permissible under the right circumstances. But I certainly don't think that doing so publicly in a fandom setting is the right approach. There's endless testimony from survivors of abuse over the internet who were groomed using fanart and fanfiction like that. Putting that work out in the open where predators can easily access it and use it to groom kids is wildly irresponsible. Do what you have to do if you need to do it, but do it in private-- there's arguments against that, too, but as long as you keep it to yourself, you're still the only person that you're harming by fetishizing it. I think that there definitely is plenty of fanfiction out there that is graphic and yet explores the delicate subject matter in a nuanced way, but I think just by the nature of fandom this usually isn't the case. "Brainrot" is inescapable in fandom, even in fandoms that are more organized around meta than they are around things like shipping. It's the impulse to put all the components of the story in a jar and shake it around. Most of the proshippers I see aren't interested in analyzing the abuse in the situation so much as they are squeeing about it into pillows. And that usually isn't a problem for most pairings, but when what you're writing about is child abuse, the situation requires a little more tact than that. Not doing so is how you get people arguing that minors can consent to relationships with adults, and that sibling incest is actually not so bad, because we are informed by what we read about and if we are presented story after story about these stances being true then we are absolutely going to be influenced by it. That isn't a matter of poor reading comprehension, that's just how the human brain works.
@PaulGallagher-hj4rq It’s on her tumblr; she’s not super diligent with tagging so I doubt I could find the specific post again, but she talks about similar topics quite frequently on her blog.
@PaulGallagher-hj4rq Yeah, me too, for the most part. It is a bit interesting I suppose, though, that a lot of the things on her blog really contextualize the rest of her commentary; for instance there's a moment in "On The Ethics of Boinking Animal People" where she says something along the lines of "If given the opportunity, I would **** my--" before being cut off as a joke. Because of her tumblr, I know the implied word there was "dad". I'm kinda glad she left most of that stuff out of the video, but just my knowledge of it sort of sours the whole thing for me. It only gets more frustrating knowing that she believes being against incest fetishism is a form of bigotry-- apparently she considers it a foundational part of her sexuality. She's a really thoughtful art critic for the most part, but has a few glaring opinions that make me want to bang my head against a wall.
I love how immediately at the start of this vid the definition of proship is wrong... Proship is just that. You just like to ship and don't care about what others ship. And that's all. If you don't like a ship, or it makes you uncomfortable, you block the person or tag. Simple as. Hhhh. Shipping has never and will never be about morals and superiority. Its about smushing some fictional dolls you like together and seeing what happens. It can also be a way to explore topics or things that are dark or mortally grey in a safe manner. A therapist wouldn't say "yeah go consume adult content to cope, minor." But what would be said is "if writing and drawing your trauma helps to understand and cope, I will not shame you, nor stop you from your expression. But I will help you further unpack why you want to write/draw these things." I like how this also blames the media over the bad person themselves for being gross... The media didn't make them harm others; there's a high likelihood of that happening anyway with or without. (You can look at most true crime cases for that) Also, if you're consuming media and taking it as a blueprint on how to act/what morals you should have? Then I'm sorry your parents and other safe adults that should be in your life failed you so hard. Teachers and parents are supposed to be your role models and explain any media you happen to find. As well as keep away media that would be too much for you based on age and/or content. Fitcional fantasy media as a whole isn't there to teach, to babysit, or give you a lesson on how to be a decent person. Its there for exploring and entertainment. Whatever you take from it will always be different to how others interpret it. Period. Also, banning everything "questionable" or "toxic" outright will quickly lead to a ban of things that aren't. That wholesome queer media you love? Gone. That adorable art of a mixed couple? Gone. Cuz believe it or not, those things are inherently proship as well since it's different from the "norm". Do your do diligence. Learn to block media you don't like. Don't harass/doxx people. And keep kids away from 18+ media rather than make the media not exist. It's not for them in the first place.
THIS!! Saying that proshopping is bad and things that fall under its **very broad** category shouldn't be allowed to be created is such an issue. When it comes to censorship, you're either all for it or all against it. Proshipping allows people to explore kinks and dark topics safely in FICTION. Saying that it's gross and needs to be censored opens the gates to censoring other things, such as lgbtq+ topics, because anyone could come up with an argument as to why it's "immoral". Give an inch and they'll take a mile when it comes to censoring topics they don't like in the name of "safety".
Agreed with everything you said. However, I believe that all public media should be open to criticism. It’s just nobody likes having actual discussions in good faith anymore. It’s sad.
I also think that realism is something to take into consideration. For horror fans, it’s easy to be enamored by a slasher or a serial killer on screen because we’re aware that it’s not real, it’s dramatized, it’s out of proportion, that’s not what violence if that nature really looks like, etc. Patrick Bateman and Hannibal Lecter are so absurdly fictional and their deeds so bizarre/unrealistic that it’s easy to look past them, especially when the actor is good looking or captivating. A gentlemanly millionaire cannibal with superhuman intelligence helping the fbi and a psychotic yuppie having breakdowns over restaurants/business cards to the point of murder is nothing that will ever happen in the history of ever. Audiences get comfortable in the unreal aspects and bloom into fandom culture
Thanks for making this video, it made me realize i might have been consuming some problematic media that glorify things i do not think are good or agree with. I sometimes read a book or watch something that is very problematic and i just kinda say "well i dont think that it is good so its fine and i go on to enjoy it" but this video made me realize how much media can effect my own views and no matter how "media literate" i am or how well i think i can tell what is okay too consume i should still be cautious.
18:55 I wouldn't say so, the straw hat's are rather morally ambigious, they do things for selfish reasons, it just so happens that often times their idea of being selfish is helping someone they like. For instance in skypiea they did straight up pillage the gold even if the skypieans were gonna give it as thanks. Your point still stands though, it's made clear by Luffy himself that he doesn't see himself as some kind of good guy or hero, he see's his actions as him being selfish and that stands for your point of it not being glorified.
Adventure time actually did showing getting pressured into doing something Really well, not like habzin hotel or helluva boss where they make it look funny, quirky, silly, and fun because it’s not, though I can’t say how it is or feels like because I haven’t been taken advantage of yet
'proshipping' can be a nunced scale with shades of gray but a lot of people treat it as black and white and it SUCKS Something that happaned to me: I sometimes like to draw stuff involving 'age gaps between adults' ,( shipping a 30yo with a 50yo for example) I like this kinda stuff IN FICTION and I don't think it's that big a deal, but some people might think that's problematic and that's fine, if they are unconfortable with that they can just block me right?? So, at one point I was kicked out of a discord server because they thought I was a 'proshipper' and while I was panicking do you know WHO came to offer a friendly word?? A 'REAL' proshipper that was drawing ACTUALLY messed up stuff like inc3st and p3do!!!!! I knew better and ignored it cuz the stuff they drew made me sick, but I could see this happening to someone younger and more desperate and they ending up actually being embraced by the 'other side' because of the aceptance!! That's what happens when you reject and shun people because of the tiniest 'moral failure'!
i think proshipping can be a good coping method, if done correctly. with that, i mean consuming content that talks about these issues without romanticizing it, as a way to be seen. and especially in private!!!! not on tiktok. i don't currently have the strength to explain my whole opinion, but I'm open to questions i guess
I get pretty frustrated with the "fiction doesn't affect reality" comments, or arguments that things like this "aren't that bad," because me and a lot of my friends have mental disabilities and/or disorders. A lot of use interact with fiction in a different way, and fiction affects our lives deeply. Specifically, most of us are autistic, and just thinking about our interests too hard can make you lightbeaded or start to cry or start to visibly shake/move uncontrollably. I, personally, can only really feel empathy for fictional characters, so seeing them get put through the most horrific situations and then treated like it's "cute" can fuck me up mentally for DAYS. It just feels sort of privileged. Every time I see content like that pop up I think "wow they're so lucky they have no empathy, sympathy or care towards these fictional characters who I have devoted so much time and thought towards." And when I see people go "oh its to cope with my trauma😢," I think "haha wow I have to do the exact opposite but good for you i guess." Because i also use media to cope, which is exactly why i hate proshipping.
Same on a lot of aspects, but your comment reminded me of this comment i read a decent while back. I dont know what it was, and they didn't know themselves, but they had this both amazing and horrifying capacity to completely lose themself in this video game. Genshin, just to be clear. When they were in a sewer like area they could smell the garbage and mold and rusted metal, to the point their eyes would water. They described it being impossible to get through the main story or even side quests because their heart ached when a character got harmed in any way. They felt like they were drowning when underwater, genuinely afraid when someone else was afraid, literally able to get inside that world. And i know it's pretty unrelated to the topic at hand, i just wanted to add this because i thought it was an interesting thing. Something I didn't know people were capable of experiencing. The main point is that they physically couldn't play the game anymore after doing the fontaine quest (involves a lot of water and tragedy) because of how much it affected them. How there was a lot of media they loved and wanted to engage with that they couldn't watch or play or read, because they got stuck for lack of a better term. To me reading their comment was beautiful, i thought about all the cut scenes and landscapes i wished i could experience the same way they did, but it also sounded horrifying. All the parts of the game that have become "unremarkable", or still has a level of disconnect because it's not physically real, became a stressor. And even outside of that person's comment, even outside what the topic is meant to be, the idea that fiction is entirely separate from reality irks me in every way. It's like this gen z curse of trying not to care about things to seem nonchalant and cool, i guess trying to be the opposite of millennials in some way (i wouldn't know im not a millennial) has left people with no hobbies, no passion or things they care about. It's all about looking cool, appearing cool and confident, when we are all so aggressively chalant. Of course that's not every gen z, just a generalization, but still. With all the beautiful and tragic and thoughtful works of art that exist out there, how could you not be impacted? How could you not cry or cackle or kick your feet at some scene no matter how silly or serious?? Do they sleep with their eyes open watching or reading or playing media, is some lazy bloodshed or lazier sex appeal that much more interesting that worldbuilding or the magic system or the character dynamics or the fictional politics playing out in the background???
i also use media to cope as an autistic person, but more in the form of comfort characters and such. spamton is one of these comfort characters for me cause i started getting very hyperfixated on him when i was in a very, VERY bad place mentally back in 2022. fast forward to today and now i like to draw arts of him happy and comfortable for once and made an entire fanfiction in my head just so that he could have a genuine friend again and also heal from all of his trauma both because i (unfortunately) related or used to relate to some of his issues and also just because i feel extremely bad for him every time i think about his backstory too hard sorry if this comment comes off weird or out of the place by the way, i tend of ramble about any of my hyperfixations at any opportunity
Hii! I'm sure you didn't mean any harm from this video, but my mom used to work for a company that assisted mentally disabled adults, and she often would work with Jupiter. The rumors spread online about him being in possession of that kind of content or hurting other people are all false, and any time he posts online there is always another adult in the room with him. He really is a nice person, he just struggles mentally, and being vulnerable it's easier for people to spread rumors and target him.I'm not saying he has never done anything wrong, but those allegations in particular are false.
Some of the ships I like could be argued has problematic elements, they develop to a more mature state and the characters become better people than where they started out. Outright glamorizing those elements or brushing them aside is both wrong and irresponsible.
I really hate the excuse that "it's fiction and it doesn't affect me", or that "fiction is not reality" because... Well, obviously it's not that simple! I've heard some proshippers online actually saying that fiction doesn't affect reality, when it's clearly an asinine take, and also a very privileged one. Because fiction has been used time and time again to do harm, create stereotypes, and demonize/dehumanize oppressed groups. It doesn't matter that it's fiction, because the brain relates fiction to reality and uses it as a framework through which to see it through. Some use the excuse that, "but these things only happened because there was already a precedent of hatred against those groups", which is fair, but when you're using this argument to excuse explicit fanfiction/content of child characters, or childxadult, you might miss the fact that... In society, there's also a precedent for pedophilia! Lots of people see this content when they're young and it normalizes it in their mind. I remember there was a study that found that men who consumed explicit content where consent wasn't explicit for "hardcore"/ rough behaviors, they were more likely to enact those behaviors in real life with partners that hadn't consented to the acts (things like choking, slapping, rough handling). The human brain simply isn't wired to not be affected by fiction, for pretty much evolutionary reasons. I believe that pro/anti discourse has poisoned the well for fandom discussions, that we could have if these terms weren't involved... When studying literature it's a given that fiction affects reality, and that reality affects fiction. I guess I wish these topics were handled with more seriousness, but the people involved on both sides (even if proshippers want to pretend they don't let minors in their spaces) are young, or casual, don't-think-about-it-too-hard people.
just a question is it ok for a teen to have a crush on a fictional teenage character because as a teen myself i feel really guilty about having a crush on fictional character my age or older so around 16, like ik some characters are older than me but than i read stuff like it’s wrong to find these characters attractive no matter what so please tell me ur opinion i am really just just trying to figure it out. or maybe i am just too chronically online. this particular part in this tik tok show got me thinking 21:05
Definitely, it’s completely okay, you’re not going to be a pedophile for having a fictional crush on a fictional drawn character, it’s not possible, you’re not going to be doing that to real life kids once you’ve become a mature adult and you’re definitely not going to support any inappropriate behavior between a minor and a grown adult, if its not affecting anybody in real life for having a crush on a fictional character, have fun
@ ty i guess i was just hearing so much of other people doing it and hearing that it was bad like the proshipers, so i kinda just slipped into my psyche, unconscious mind or something like that but really thanks a lot 🫶🫶
Personally I’ve been attracted to characters canonically in their 20s since I was a kid, and still am attracted to them. Usually because they’re the most appealing characters. Most of the teenage characters I was into I am no longer into because it’s completely normal to be attracted to a character that looks and acts similarly to your own age group.
Hey so i used to have this fear a lot as teen, and ngl the fact that ive seen multiple ppl express this same anxiety makes the whole pro/anti ship discourse piss me off. Dude, you're so fine. When you find yourself having to ask "is it ok for a teen to have a crush on a fictional teen," I need you to listen to that question. I'm not saying this to be hostile to you -- again, I empathize with that worry having been there myself. But it's exactly at that point that you need to go and say "oh wow, this entire discourse is dumb and weird and designed to cause moral anxiety spirals." Fiction and fandom are supposed to be fun. So long as you aren't hurting any actual people, you can literally do and feel and enjoy whatever you want. So don't feel guilty, not only because it is a waste of your emotional energy, but also because life is going to involve MUCH grayer, more difficult moral dilemmas than "can a teen have a crush on a fictional teen".
21:10 First of all, swastika isn't always a Nazi symbol. Second of all, why does all "depicting isn't the same as glorifying" discourse always vanish the moment Nazis are mentioned? I know it isn't the main theme of this video, but it really felt like you're contradicting your own point here...
@@darkstarr984Or to be an actual threat to other characters. Or for a serious analysis of how wrong their beliefs are. Or to showcase how easy it is to be indoctrinated into a system you wouldn't like if you looked at it from outside. Or for them to realize their misdeeds and turn against that system. There's really a lot of ways to have these characters without agreeing with/glorifying the ideology!
@@TiredMoonRabbitI'm not an expert on that, but from what I know both right-facing and left-facing swastikas were present in the "original" cultures (in quotes because the symbol was used pretty much everywhere on earth, there isn't a singular place of origin), so it might not be a reliable identifier^^"
The closest I have ever gotten to proshipping is playtherapy with AI characters where I make them do the traumatic thing to me. I didn't even realise I was doing it and it never helped in the first place. Yet I'm addicted and don't want to tell anyone because my parents will ban me from the app if they find out I'm having those kinds of chats because I've learned things they don't want me to know on there Edit: I've seen how irresponsible teenagers OLDER than me can be. There was an open classroom for a big awards assembly. After I got my award, I went into one of those classrooms because I was getting overwhelmed. That classroom was full so they got two teachers to go into another one. There were already 2 kids who looked to be in their senior years. (Idk if they actually were) This was judging by how much taller they were than me. They were putting songs up on the board usung yt. The problem is, they kept putting on songs with swear words or innapropriate topics. They're choosing wrap songs so as you can expect, they say a rude word for black ppl a couple hundred times. I ask the teachers if I can put a song on. They said yes, so after their song finnished (probably more likely that the teacher had to turn off the song because it was so innapropriate) I walked up and searched up a song on yt. I had thought for a moment on what song to pick. One song I thought of mentioned a deadly gambling game so I decided not to pick that. A bunch of other songs had swear words in them. So I settled on "Welcome to the black parade" by My Chemicle Romance. The boys groaned as they realised what song it was. They complained through it while I sung at a polite volume and swayed to the music. The boys even changed the song at one point to which the teachers changed it back. As they continued to argue with the teachers once my song was over, The boys used me as a reason why the teachers were being unfair. The boys said that they let me put on whatever I wanted but wouldn't let them do the same. This was wrong. I had thought about what would be appropriate for the setting I was in at the time. They were just mad that they couldn't put on the songs they wanted because they were all innapropriate for school.
@@CapunderpantsYeah, It never really helped me cope tho, The coping had to be done in other ways. It more as made me relapse so, It's not fine in that area... Edit: The key difference is the only time I ever fangirled hard was when I played a romantic relationship between me as a full adult and another girl (I suspected gay at the time but am unsure now) who was also an adult. I proceeded to write stories about a normal relationship.
6:16 That tiktok talking about a 4yrs age gap in europe being "normal" cuz it's legal. Trust me, I hate it but i'm not the only one who does. My partner for example has a friend who is 21yrs old and dating a 16yrs old, yes her parents have met him and are okay with the relationship. But here's the thing, unfortunately it's LEGALLY not pdophilia cuz they aren't having any sexual intercourse, YEP- I know, absolutely disgusting. I have tried convincing my partner that it is still pdophilia cuz of the age gap being way too big for a 16yrs old, but their response was that they know it's wrong and that they're keeping an eye on their friend, but because the girl's parents are okay with their daughter's boyfriend being 5yrs older than her, and that it's not my partner's decision, there isn't much to do except keep an eye on the couple. HERES THE THING, yes the age of consent in my current country is 15yrs old (ik, too young imo) but it doesn't change the fact that she still has 2yrs as a minor and he has been a legal adult for 3yrs now already. It's revolting ik, but there's nothing I can do cuz the bf is a total stranger to me, so i have "no say" in their awful relationship. The irony is that this guy, who i am also a complete stranger to, nearly ruined my relationship with my partner by telling them that I was "too childish" to be in a relationship, but dating a LITERAL CHILD is okay??? Like ew, he groomed a child, doesn't know anything about me, so what gives him the right. Anyways that was my rant.
very off topic: as terrible as what elon musk did was, I can't help but laugh and take it lightly, like: "hey Elon, try out this new salute we taught you" Elon: "alr" *proceeds to do it right away"
I HATE where they character who have actually have PTSD of them and trying to cope with it just using as comedy or just brush off to make the hero upset ignoring the actual character who have to deal with horrific things on them
USUK IN THE BEGINNING ENGLAND MY HUSBAND HIIIIII. Also if fiction always affects reality then why despite all the 2-D ecchi I’ve loved for years, I have a huge disgust for real sex and I’m ace? This is a huge problem on the individual alone and not anyone else. If you need a cartoon to repeatedly tell you “SA is bad” to know it’s bad, think WHY you need that. Look deep within yourself and ask why.
Ugh, maybe one of my points was addressed in the video, I can’t tell because I kept thinking of how prettt England looks in the artworks… See, I also wanted to mention most “proshippers” on Tiktok are young and immature anti-shippers thinking they’re going “under cover”. I’m not “proship” by the way, I don’t use that label, I was in fandoms during a time “pro shipper” wasn’t a word because everyone expected that anyway and anti-ship was abnormal. Anyway England you’re so sexy heehee it looks like you’re in the wrong country, get away from that trigger happy overgrown child, he won’t treat you as good as I will.
I will defend cutting out the Finn scene as I always thought it was treated more as a very throwaray "dark joke" and it's also a kid's show and not the place to talk about such dark topics imo. Coping w media is great, I love media like perfect blue, Baby raindeer or very recently Jojolands that do not shy away from the fact. But there's an abundance of media like "get hard" or "horrible bosses" where it's all treated like a joke and pokes fun at the victim rather than sympatising. And it's really unbearable to live with. I've talked a bit about my experiences with people I care about or they've either laughed at me or in the worst case, ghosted me to avoid the topic. The finn scene just never sat well with me. In a way I can understand why people liked it, but I got a completely different interpretation from me
Like, when I was 12 I had read gachia kuta and had a crush on the main character who was also 12, now I’m older and don’t have a crush on them anymore, simple??? Like.. even if the character is fictional, if you, as an adult like a teenager.. that’s like, weird af.
Hot take but I think humanizing rapists and abusers in media is a good thing.
When in an abusive relationship, it is so easy to feel like the person you're with couldn't be abusive, because you've seen them be human. You've seen them show empathy and sympathy, you know about the things in their past that haunt them. If your entire exposure to abuse in media is pure villains, with nothing "redeemable" it is really hard to see someone you care about as an abuser.
It's important to approach it carefully, and there will always be fans that romanticize abuse. Even so, it's important to be able to show "this is a person with some good traits and reasons someone would stay with them" while also showing that their actions are unjustifiable
This is why Mouthwashing is a really good game, it forces you to experience things from the perspective of the rapist in such a way that you as the viewer have to face the similarities between you and him. People act like acknowledging rapists as humans is the same as excusing their actions.
I think you'd like The Offence (1973)
THIS 👏🏼
Holy moly, someone that understands! We need content that isn't afraid to show good things about bad people. We need people to think a little harder about the nuances of a situation. It can't be all black and white all the time.
Exactly. Older portrayals of SA typically make perpetrators either strangers or ugly psychopaths a “real man couldn’t possibly relate to” which is not only ableist, but also ignores the gendered dynamics within society that contribute to such behaviors. Like the average man, or hell, the average person couldn’t commit such a crime because they’re not “insane.” Yet a significant portion of SA tend to be perpetrated by acquaintances or partners which I’m glad more media portrayals like Mouthwashing are acknowledging (i need more recommendations pls i cant keep glazing this game)
I think alot of people mistake "writing about your experiences" as a coping mechanism with "romanticizing your experiences" as a coping mechanism, it is in fact a therapeutic thing for alot of writers/artist who had to deal with things such as domestic abuse or SA for example, to end up in some form writing about it but there is a very very clear and giant diffrence between that and romanticizing it, there is a giant diffrence between writing those things as those things and putting a bunch of bows and gilitter around it and attempting to normalize those gross things to people especialy younger people
while proshipping is gross as hell and my empathy towards proshippers is very tightly limited I cant help but hope all those people some day will find a way to cope with their experiences that isnt so wrong
THIS!!
Yeah, I'm pretty sure when most people write stories about their trauma anyways, they usually make it very clear that it's bad? Not like, romanticize it like proshippers tend to do.
Agreed!!!
this is exactly how i feel! you put it wonderfully
Yea, i know people say proshippers use it as a way to cope but how on earth are they supposed to get help if all they do is nonstop harass the people who reject their disgusting fantasies trauma or not? Plus like 99% of the people who say "fiction doesnt affect reality!!!" are incredibly stupid as you can just do a google search and find actual examples of fiction influencing reality.
if you dont want to take the 3 seconds into looking up examples:
After the movie Jaws was released, there was an increase in ilegal shark hunting and the creator hates it because it has created the "bloodthirsty man-eater" stereotype of sharks we know today.
Real men ((sometimes women but very rarely because theyre usually the victims of the violence in films)) mimick what they see in P0rn because they think the woman will like it, choking has also became more normalized from an extreme no mans land thing to just barely "kinky"
Real people watch adult films of what theyre into and engage in content that usually contains their type, so i dont understand the "its just a drawing" thing either, yeah its just a drawing, but if you chronically look at black/asian women in freaky situations im gonna assume you have a thing for black/asian women, its no different from children and they dont seem to get that. I wouldn't let a l0licon near a child the same way i wouldnt let an otaku/kpop stan near my asian friends.
P0rn has and is continuing to normalize stepsiblingXstepsibling ships because "its not tehcnically related!!" and its taboo
Did you find the infinite content glitch or something
It definately has a lot of stuff to make content about
five hundred proships 🚬
@@Kittneyy "the aroma is quite pleasing"
Kaeluc and Lyninet shippers never give up 😒
@wafflezz-are-sick people are shipping lyney and freminet?? I've never really like kaeluc because even though they aren't blood related they were raised as brothers so its weird and lyney and I assume freminet are in the same boat, like it's weird
BTW I didn't read it properly I didn't realise you meant lyney and freminet
When I was younger I was taken advantage of- that lead me down a rabbit hole of intentionally getting myself gr00med by older men, over and over just to be praised. It ruined me, made me so depressed I tried to end it 8 times by the time I was 13. While I was never a "proshipper", I had the tendencies. I'm so glad I got myself out of there, and that I never harassed anyone calling things like that out. This is a real thing that happens, it's not something to romanticize. I live in fear every day that cp of me will be leaked- because, unfortunately, it exists in the internet. I'm sorry for everyone else that has to go through similar things- we'll be okay.
Gee!!! I'm so sorry that happened to you! :(( Are you alright now?
@Achii_4 yeah! Ty for your concern mate. I'm doing better
I’m so sorry this has happened
Im really sorry such terrible things happened to you, i pray that everything will be okay in your life from now.
@@ville-c4u thanks
I think my least favourite thing about the proshipper/anti discourse is how black and white people make it. I made a post on a fanfiction subreddit explaining that I felt the community was glorifying the dark content more than celebrating the community as a whole, and therefore pushing people out if they don't want to see darkship content. I also brought up how often proshippers incorrectly tag their work or intentionally insert it in places where it is not wanted, like putting Kaeluc smut in a ragbros tag or trying to turn a post joking about Amber and Collei being siblings into one about them dating despite the OP explaining that he is not comfortable with that sort of thing. I was frustrated with how the subreddit constantly ragged on "antis" and joked about how they're all puritans, without considering the fact that the majority of people in fandom aren't comfortable with darkshipping.
Despite me explaining that I agree with using fiction to explore these themes and have enjoyed dark medias like DDDNE fics or think some darkships can be a good way to play with character dynamics as well as reiterating that I think the fighting between them is stupid and I just want everyone to be able to be comfortable in the community, I got violently downvoted. Everyone in the comments was telling me I was an idiot, an anti who didn't belong and should leave, that I was morality policing and it's my fault that I was seeing stuff I didn't want to despite blocking every tag under the sun.
I was harassed out of that subreddit and have since left all fanfiction related communities because I did not feel comfortable in places where people are encouraged to romanticise and glorify abusive behaviours, ignore people's boundaries, tell people that "adopted families aren't real families so it isn't incest" or weaponise cultures to downplay people's discomfort with harmful topics. By that point, I realised it wasn't a me problem. It wasn't my fault I wasn't blacklisting enough words or blocking enough accounts. It was the community being more concerned with celebrating their freedom to write sibling smut than making sure they followed their own "values" and making sure it was a safe place for everyone within it.
Literally just this… I hate that this isn’t treated with enough nuance
i think i know what subreddit you're talking about, i don't interact with that one for the same reason. but, it's also reddit, and i've noticed how some reddit communities don't like critical thinking.
Not to mention that they're very staunchly against DNIs, saying they're childish... I don't get it, WHY do you want people to be exposed to upsetting things when they don't want to?
Apparently, if you don't want to interact with someone who makes triggering content, they'd rather you have to see that content than them to be bothered to read a simple statement in a bio...
@kc8391 ong I’ve seen this so many times…
@ It's ridiculous. They say that it's your responsibility to avoid subjects that upset you, but then go out of their way to bother you because you have a DNI list. They act like they're the victims when people are uncomfortable with the content they make, but then insist on putting it in very visible places instead of adding tags that people can block without getting rid of stuff they do want to see.
Media that shows you that your trauma wasn't your fault and lets you sympathize with the victim, and thus yourself, can be powerful.
Sadly, I think too many writers identify with the predator and make the victimizer into the sympathetic character.
As someone who has multiple characters who are victims of abuse, especially SA, I can promise you that I love them with all my heart and despise the characters I made that hurt them. Even the main villains go after abusers specifically, and are really good dads to a boy that was neglected and semi-adopted daughter who was SA’ed by her father. I love every character of that family, and I love the daughter, Bee, with all my heart and gave her the happy ending she deserved. Same with the son, though the villain dads do both die, which sucks since the one is my personal favorite OC-
Im so glad we can talk about this without wishing harm on these kids. As a survivor of CSA, I understand how it feels to seek refuge in morbid fantasy. Ive learned the healthy difference between something romanticizing abuse rather than actually coping. I think that in private, consensual scenarios with someone you trust, engaging in that kind of fantasy can feel very reclaiming and freeing. I ALSO know that engaging with that kind of fantasy on a public platform ESPECIALLY AS AN IMPRESSIONABLE KID, Is a fast track to receiving attention from adults who want to exploit something that is meant to be safe and reclaiming into making that child ACTUALLY relive those experiences. Understanding sexuality and engaging with it healthily is something that is learned with time and care, and you should KNOW how to healthily engage with your own sexuality before putting yourself in sexual situations wether that be on social media be in private. these children don't truly understand the nature of the media that they're consuming because they are CHILDREN.
Absolutely agree. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this as a survivor/srs/gen
@ville-c4u clearly, you do.
I feel like this easily ties into kink/ bdsm as well. Sometimes It is hard to see the line between working with a traumatic scenario to help your partner feel safe and heal in a safe environment (especially with, as an example dd/lg, hard s/d, heavy degradation and cnc) and just redoing the same abusive and dangerous behaviours that lead to them feeling this way. Even tho bdsm relationships are supposed to be 18/20+ consensual and safe, it might not always be good for the person re acting their trauma. That’s why communication and self awareness is so important in it. This is why abusive doms should be locked up.
It always really bothers me when media shows something really wrong and doesn't treat it as such, or even glorifies it - I've noticed it in anime more than other media I've seen and it why i like saiki k so much since it points out the common tropes and shows them more in the lense of 'real life' in that it acknowledges when something is weird
Reporting the bot!!
Less severe example, but I hate how one of the more common cartoon plots is two (or more) people getting stuck in an elevator (considering i went through the trauma myself), and how this plot seemingly spiked in popularity after what happened to Nicholas White- a man trapped in an elevator for two days. It’s even gotten to the point where my trauma was used as a glorified writing prompt because my teacher hadn’t realized it actually happened to people along with an extremely out of touch commercial I saw a *lot* over the holiday season
I like how the show can joke about Makato, but still portray him and creepy and something that makes Teruhashi uncomfortable (whether she knows his feelings or not). While we still have the purple haired creep (I haven’t seen the show in a few years, I forget him), it’s still looked down upon, especially since Saiki himself seems to be sex repulsed in some way, and just is the straight man of his own show.
@@ShadeATV it annoys me to no end whenever theres clear examples like this, which fiction affecting reality and vice versa, and people will STILL insist that "fiction doesnt affect reality!!" just ask them what they think of sharks and itll tell you everything
I hate proshipping because when I was a kid, I used to read non-con as a way to cope. I needed to vent, I needed to feel like someone related, but I didn't have any friends, so I read angst on ao3 most of the time. But when it came to that specific thing, it was awful, because thanks to proshippers, it was so hard to find a non-con story that DIDN'T glorify or romantizice the situation instead of treating it as the horror it was. I wanted to read angst, pure angst, but I just never found it. It ended triggering me when I accidently ended up reading tropes like "dubious consent" or "gray rape" and I was so disgusted I stopped trying entirely.
I know what you mean. it's really frustrating🫂
I lowkey love angst stories but just showing the tragedy not the ... other thing
"gray rape"
Uh what the actual fuck
I think you're searching for "r@p3 recovery" stories rather than non-con but I'm not too knowledgeable about this
Tbh those tags shouldn’t even be a thing, dubious consent is so stupid, a person either consents or does not consents to sex, and don’t even get me started on gray rape cause what the fuck does that even mean? Killing is something that can have a grey area but sa can’t be justified in any way
One thing that bothers the hell out of me, so much, to no end, is that I feel kids as they get older, they’re not being taught literary analysis. Like, it’s not gonna stop incidences like this, but I feel if children were taught literary analysis, I feel they’d be less likely to fall into the holes of not being able to distinguish between depicting traumatic situations, and romanticizing traumatic situations. For example, I used to make vent pieces about parental abuse, cause I was abused by a step-parent, and my other parents helped me learn the signs of abuse, and I got stronger. I don’t romanticize going through abuse by framing it as “something that makes you stronger”, cause that makes it sound good. In reality, it’s more like Saw, where more often than not, people are left worse off than before, and it’s the process of healing that makes you stronger, not the abuse itself. Stab wounds don’t make the skin thicker, it’s scars.
Kids shouldn't be surfing the internet without supervision; they need to be kept an eye on. Parents who don't support their children's mental health have no business raising them, period. It really grinds my gears when characters with PTSD are played for laughs or to upset the hero, while their actual struggles get ignored. But, let's be clear, there's nothing wrong with liking those killer characters like Hannibal (from the ABC show) or Michael Myers. I appreciate them for their looks or behavior, not for their actions. Killing is terribly wrong, and I sure as hell wouldn't want to marry a killer.
Yeah a huge problem with kids online these days is there's no spaces for them to properly talk about the media they like without creeps going to their dm's
2:47 plus like ofc they’re going to be nice and welcome you into their community because you’re apart of the community, they’re not going to be mean to someone in the community. I’m a swiftie and only like one time I was hated on by another swiftie, but does that mean it’s not an extremely toxic fan base? OF COURSE NOT
There’s already a comment of someone telling their experience of how they were mistreated on that community which they were a part of
It irks me to no end when my aunt says that kids are doing more bullying because they show it on TV and movies. Children see, children do? Yes, of course. Children see that thing is bad? Absolutely. In most media, the bully gets their comeuppance and their acts are portrayed as bad. Social media influencers aren't portrayed as bad when they act like total douchers in public and still have a large following. Censoring only exacerbates an issue. Portrayal is what matters.
Think of landmines. Now, censor everything about landmines. You can't talk about them, you can't warn anyone about them, and you can't explain what to do about them. When someone inevitably steps on a landmine, what are they to do? They can't say anything about the landmine because they aren't allowed to. Choosing not to talk about landmines isn't going to do anything about the minefield.
In fact, an article was written on exactly this in regard to suicide and The Wall. The author refuted the idea that teens become suicidal by listening to the album because of its themes of suicide. The author retorts by essentially claiming that anyone who listened to the album knows that it's all about combating and overcoming suicidal ideation and, if anything, has helped countless teens overcome such ideation.
Full article here: www.nytimes.com/1984/12/15/opinion/l-censorship-is-not-a-cure-for-teen-age-suicide-153578.html
Yes, that article is from 1984. Adults have been plugging their ears for more than four decades.
crazy a comment can have a link without being deleted
Fucking thank you hhhh
I always felt like kids bully people because the bullying on TV wasn't accurate and didn't represent what victims actually go through. I had a very specific idea of bullying in elementary school, and thought that I wasn't bullying anyone by "roasting" them, because I wasn't shoving them in lockers or stuffing their faces in toilets like bullies on TV did. I would claim that I had never gotten bullied, because I didn't know that my teachers harassing me and lying to my mom about it was bullying, or that kids making school shooter jokes about me was bullying.
That's such a dumb argument lol, on your aunt's part, like yeah media can and has influenced behaviors in reality, but children don't bully other kids because it's seen in tv. Bullying has always existed, and it's just an easy way to place blame on an unrelated target rather than getting to the root of the issue.
Which is apparently the main issue overall-people pretend and claim to care about certain topics, but they never actually care to get to the root of an issue. Instead of checking for a poor home life or bullying in school, they jump and clutch onto the vagueness of "scary mental illnesses" or video games. When it's someone calling out another person for using their kids to make lowkey pedo bait content, they're the ones attacked for "seeing the kid in a sexual way" when it's just basic awareness and child safety.
Because confronting the root of the problem takes time and effort, and in a lot of cases could change a lot of things that have been normalized or even seen as morally correct. Again, that takes effort, and nobody whos more focused on "appearing good" actually wants to do any good. Nobody who wants to look like a hero or a martyr will actually go out of their way with others to make things safer, prevent more cases of csa and abuse, etc etc. That is true virtue signaling, not whatever people think virtue signaling is nowadays like putting a content warning or smth.
they cant talk about the landmine because they are blown up
The thing that frustrates me about the whole ‘fiction =/= reality’ thing is it erases all the nuance of fiction as a tool.
Propaganda is often heavily rooted in promoting a specific type of fiction to support a certain narrative, and media that focuses on eliciting strong emotions absolute affects how people respond to certain topics in reality (such as shark culling greatly reducing the numbers of many shark species after the release of Jaws in the 70s, or clowns being associated with fear and murder after Steven King’s IT released and had multiple adaptations)
If fiction never affects reality in any tangible way, then why have we fought so hard to have proper representation of historically oppressed groups in fiction? Why have people used specific pieces of media as justification/inspiration for hate crimes? To act like there’s absolutely no link is irresponsible at minimum, and actively harmful and dangerous at worst because it makes you vulnerable to manipulation tactics. The key is finding balance between taking everything at face value and ignoring any red flags present in fiction
another example, a lot of people to this day still seem to romanticize the 1950's purely off of the propaganda/commercials/media at the time, despite things being pretty damn shitty back then, especially for women.
propaganda is not fiction... It's literally meant to make you believe it's real, 99.9% of fictional media is not trying to make you believe it's real. By definition propaganda is not meant to be fiction.
What's the point of caring about representation of people in fiction, it's LITERALLY not real. They aren't real people. "Why have people used specific pieces of media as justification/inspiration for hate crimes? " It's literally mental illness, thats why. These people think fiction is reality and take stuff from it and act on it in reality.
I would also like to add that Jurassic Park had made people think that the dinosaurs that were in said movie originated from the jurassic era despite being off for a LONG time period
@@steampunk-llama propaganda is not fiction… By definition it’s literally meant to be real
I have a hot take: you can age up characters AS LONG AS it's NOT for sexual purposes. Like if you just want to show off what you think they'd look like as an adult. If it's not harming anyone and does not perpetuate harm, then I think it's okay. But again only in a COMPLETELY SFW CONTEXT
you can also do whatever you want with the characters because they aren’t real 👍🏼
@elkie9300 uhhh not ANYTHING....
My take is go wild do your things but make sure to properly tag and hide those medias from minors. Everythings good as long as no real people were harmed or traumatized
This was my stance for a while too, but I came to realize this standard is honestly a little arbitrary and hard to hold people to; even yourself. Once I noticed how common it was in canon to show characters as adults in order to write about them going through more adult experiences (ie having kids and whatnot) it occurred to me that forbidding the same in fandom was maybe a bit too paranoid. I'm still very wary of "aged-up" nsfw, because I think a lot of times people aren't really actually drawing characters as adults so much as they are just claiming that to shove off criticism; so now I usually say, as long as they put effort into portraying this version of the character as meaningfully different from their child self then I think it's alright (ie, drawing them with a more developed body). Granted, I'm not a part of fandoms like BNHA where I hear this problem is really rampant, I'm more familiar with the Homestuck fandom where postcanon adult fics are a very common avenue of smut.
(That being said, I still think that aging up a canon child character to ship them with a canon adult character is mondo creepy. Definitely doesn't come from the same place as just running the calendar a decade or two to see what's going on then.)
@ yes, you can, the characters are imaginary and not real and no one is harmed
10:38 Ugh I'm so glad you're talking about this. I get weird looks all the time because I 'enjoy' (if you could call it that) Light x Misa. I wouldn't even say I ship them, more so I just see it as a portrayal of a manipulative relationship. In the same way people might 'enjoy' a story that includes a character ending up in a bad partnership just for the sake of it being a well-written portrayal. Such as Harley Quinn and The Joker for example. They obviously are not good for eachother and Joker is a psychopath, so that makes the audience root for Harley to be able to escape from his toxicity.
Yeah, Light and Misa is pretty good, just Light is a pretty bad guy. Y'know? Which is why I think people tend to gravitate towards L x Light, unfortunately. I myself had shipped Lawlight in the past and yeah, while I do still see how people could ship them, it's just a bit weird in my eyes nowadays.
Wouldn't Joker be more of a sociopath?
@alphalostcontrol Lmao probably, I don't think I thought of that at the time
@@ville-c4u okay? I have no idea how that relates to my comment but pop off ig
Minors dating adults will never not be gross.
minors dating adults is tragic, adults dating minors is gross.
@keysystem Both are gross.
@ but it’s important to stress that the kids are not at fault, and with “minors” being the subject of your sentence, the blame is placed on them
@keysystem If they force themselves on adults it's still gross, even if less common. Kids liking adults is gross, adults liking kids is gross.
@ so what you just said isn’t “kids dating adults” but “kids forcing themselves on adults” which is a WHOLE different thing
0:17 look at my therapist dawg IM GOING TO THE ASYLUM 🤬😭🙏🏻🤣
As I writer, I personally never understand the concept of having a child be shipped with an adult. I have two characters who were SA'd as kids and literally never in my mind did I go "oml that's so cute!"
I really wanna see the writers who do *that* on a watch list.
SAME BUT I DONT TELL PEOPLE ABOUT MY OC GETTING S/A'D BECAUSE IM SCARED THEY'LL THINK I'M INTO THIS STUFF GUHHH
@Chester0rSomething fr tho. literally everyone in my class (who read my ocs backstory) was damn disgusted at the abuser, not one person thought it was cute, so how are there writers who think it is
I hate those kinds of ships! OMG they ruin stories for me if it’s not treated as seriously as it should be. It half the reason I tend to shy away from enemies to lovers stories. Most of them glorify or romanticize a toxic relationship that MIGHT stop being toxic and it’s like ew, gross, get this out of my face please!!
same, a few of my ocs have sexual trauma and it is NOT meant to be 'cute' or just a 'part of their character!!!' no its sexual abuse.
also when i said this before someone said "multiple? i bet you get off to that." babe what
It's so fucking gross like I could never imagine myself getting off to my child characters having sexual or romantical relations with adults (and ppl who get of to it need some help srsly)
IVE PLAYED THESE GAMES BEFORE
YOU SAID YOU PLAYED THESE GAMES BEFORE!
NSH?!
@ JOHNNY?!
Rainworld fan spotted
my only issue with anti proshippers is that the term proship sounds too broad. so broad to the point that i thought anti proshipers were anti shipping in general. like i was comissioning an artist once and i saw in their tos no proship. so i asked them what it ment and they just decribed shipping. so it it wasent till recently that i figured out it wasent pro as in pro and conn and was problematic shipping.
Honestly for a little while I thougt proshipping meant that you had to be a pro at shipping.... and anti-proshippers where a bit jealous? Idk man 😭
@averagesimp-620 LOL
Or that people will label anything as proship if it's slightly "problematic." I'm not a proship, I'm honestly closer to an anti, but people have called my ships proships because they had age gaps (the younger one in the ship was 32), or were toxic (which is sort of up to interpretation. They k-ll each other but they have infinite respawn). Or see exploring a toxic relationship as romanticizing it.
@gaywizard-u7v even though that's definitely annoying, I'm pretty sure most of them are just younger people who haven't fully grasped the meaning yet. Still annoying and sometimes leading to hate mobs (if any tbh), but at least the misunderstanding is somewhat reasonable
As far as I'm aware, that is one of the biggest issues. I wasn't online from 2013 and before, i was both too young and the only things i cared about was ihascupquake and venturiantale, but from a lot of older internet users I've heard that proship did initially mean pro-shipping. As in shipping is good and fun and a valid form of enjoying the og media. But as time went on and discussions supposedly evolved, to a growing number of people, "proship" then meant "problematic shipping". So in other words, you could come across two different users who are "proship" and they could mean vastly different things by that.
And unfortunately, at least based on my experience there's a lot more "antishippers" in the case of shipping in general, who are easily able to look "mature and coherent" by pretending all shipping is is enabled and romanticized toxic relationships. People that are unironically mad at people who harmlessly ship, no matter if it's straight or gay, canon or non canon. I think with those antishippers, people entirely against shipping, are mostly unreasonable and irrational-the only point they can (sometimes) have is bringing up how a lot of shippers end up confusing headcanons with canon or completely mischaracterizing a character.
...i went off track but ykwim
my therapist never recommended me romanticizing my trauma and says its actually quite a bad idea who are these mfs seeing LMAO
edit: elaboration perhaps: ive had a romanticizing pattern of thinking about myself before as well. i was never open about it (which is something some people can learn from, it seems), but it did eventually lead to me undermining my own experiences and leaving me feeling worse off (like. doubting my own validity as a person for things that extended beyond abuse, which i feel like isnt discussed as much as it should be. romanticizing anything bad you have experienced/struggle with is bound to lead you somewhere similar, i'm sure). when i spoke to her about this, she said she has seen similar cases and agrees that it was not a good path to go down. outwardly showcasing your romanticization of these experiences of yours can also hurt others who have dealt with similar issues as you, whether they are in that cycle of thinking themselves or not. similar thoughts regarding these things will still creep into my mind, but i know not to feed into them.
there is a huge difference between projecting your experiences onto fiction (which i would recommend, in fact, as long as it is done so safely, is not made accessible to the wrong people (children, those who can't handle the topic, etc), and you are considerate), and making unnecessary light of them
edit 2: bot core 😂😂
@@ville-c4ucool??? Want a cookie buddy
Right like if a therapist is saying to ship problematic ships and engage with proship online spaces to help you cope with your trauma they probabl aren't that good of a therapist
@@jordanlovestheosc It's a spammer
Proshippers still don’t deserve death threats or getting doxxed nobody does( I know she said that)
I think proshippers deserve help ESPECIALLY if they're kids or victims of whatever they're romanticizing
Yes, a therapist and to get off internet, same for antis.
I dont think she was advocating for harassment of pro-shippers, they were just stating that it can be harmful and that it's more beneficial to shy away from that kind of content that they got into for one reason or another. Seeking professional help should be a top priority.
I got into that pipe-line as a teen, because I didn't really understand why it's wrong. My brain always operated in a way that I needed to get a proper reason behind a rule or a law. Nobody at the time really explained it to me. I guess I was lucky not to get directly groomed by someone, but still...I wish I never saw or read some of that stuff.
Yeah, nobody does. That should be the standard…
"Well only someone stupid would fall for this!"
Yeah... that's why we have consent ages, and things in place to help protect kids. (When they're upheld, that is.)
8:50 as an autistic i also believe they don’t know what autism is
I'm autistic but I know Nazi signaling is a bad sign.
@ Same here he knew damn well what he was doing and he’s more than old enough to know
A friend of mine had an interesting comparison: proshipping is like having a nest of termites at the edge of your yard. It may not be an issue in the beginning but if left unchecked for too long it will cause problems down the road.
Meanwhile 90% of the people in the Black Butler fandom being completely okay with shipping a traumatized 13 year old with a 1000+ year old (26 in human years) who is tormenting him and wants to eat his soul:
EDIT!: ⚠️‼️ALSO IF YOU SHIP SEBACIEL PLEASE DO NOT REPLY TO THIS I DONT HAVE TIME FOR YOUR DRAMA‼️⚠️
Not only that they overseggulize Ciel even tho he's 13 and was m0|3$ted (I don't know much about BB but that's what somebody said)
Ship name is Sebaciel btw
@@Marbel421because author is into shotacon
NAW BECAUSE THIS SHIT WEIRDED ME OUT oml my older sister loves Black Butler and she has art of the two of them and I've never asked her about it (the art isn't inherently sexual, romantic, etc. They're just there) but I've never gotten around to it. I'm praying she doesn't ship them because eugh...
@@TheUnderNerd FRRR LIKE I STOPPED WATCHING BLACK BUTLER BECAUSE I WAS SO DISGUSTED LIKE EACH TIME I WATCH IT I GET REMINDED OF SEBACIEL AND I THOUGHT FOR A MINUTE THAT I WAS THE VILLAN SINCE MOST PEOPLE SHIP THEM
I watched your last proshipping video while I ironed my school clothes, so I feel like ironing my uniform while watching this one is tradition at this point😅
kids shouldnt have unsupervised internet and parents who wont offer any mental help to a kid shouldnt have them. End of the argument.
People complain about representations of women and minority groups in fiction. It should NOT be any different when you’re justifiably weirded out by pdfilia and SA being romanticized. Media should be freely criticized about any of its aspects, cause it doesn’t fucking exist just to spawn new pretty anime girls to look at. Ofc though, sending death threats isn’t justifiable at all and there is only a certain amount of “critical media analysis” you can do before it crosses the line into obsession fuelled by hatred, which is something a lot of antis do.
Comical video timing.
Literally yesterday I stumbled across loli art of a character who was very explicitly stated MINOR. (on tumblr, which is probably to be expected atp)
I've been down the rabbit hole ever since of proshippers, specifically the ones who try to justify paedophilia and all sorts of bullshit like that.
I have seen similar art but it's the 1000+ years loli looking character it's horrifying
Have these people learned nothing from Drake?
Refuse to touch tumblr for this exact reason lowkey 😭🙏
@M4t_P4tGTfr
@M4t_P4tGTsometimes i mourn the fact that my six year old self never learned of tumblr or ao3 but then it's moments like these that make me thankful. Same for amino and discord as i got older, way too many people grew up and left those sites with trauma and it should probably be investigated
10:55 same with azumanga, there's this teacher called Kimura Sensei who is in love with high school girls, and he makes it very clear, and his design is unattractive and quite reluctant
it is incredibly easy to portray stuff like this as creepy or bad (which is a good thing)
@@Wonderhoy-er it’s so easy to not romanticize something if you just put effort into it.
Idk how people can say they aren’t trying to when they very clearly are… from experience that is, not saying everyone does
why'd you become a highschool teacher kimura 😭?
That may be true, but even if this can come off as a nitpick, i dont think it helps to only rely on "ugly characters" or whatnot to portray how something is bad or dangerous. I get it, it makes it easier and overtly clear, but that also comes with the consequence of dangeous behaviors such as assault or predation being attributed to looking "off", or different. After all in media such as anime, isn't a character's predatory or generally disgusting behavior able to be ignored by their "good looks"? It's also easy to dismiss that as an issue of age or intelligence, believing only children would see an ugly character being creepy and associate it with appearance, but it's not limited to children whatsoever. It shouldn't be used to foster paranoia of course (unless the intent of some creation is meant to represent that and a general fear of everyone), but it would help in showing how anybody could do bad. It isn't just the conventionally ugly fat character, with the cartoonish buck teeth or the greasy hair or "man boobs" or...idk, being a cat owner. Glasses, even.
I'd say there's a lot of how beauty standards and discrimination in terms of appearance influences who's seen as a threat and who isn't, who's allowed to get away with more compared to who wouldn't even get the chance to imagine it. It's similar to the idea that women can't harm men or people in general, and therefore a woman can never grape somebody-sure there may be statistically more male grapists than female or nonbinary ones, but that doesn't mean it's only ever done by men. That could invalidate a lot of people who have been abused or assaulted by someone that wasn't a man...not like abuse victims want to/should be validated in the same way a person is validated for being smart or creative but you get ky point.
Again, could be seen as a small nitpick and even though this comment is long i definitely have no intention of attacking you, just wanted to add some nuance to that.
@luminescent.lumine ”because I like high school girls okay😨😨😨😨!!!!!”
mister kimura! why'd you decide become a high school teacher?
Man I didn't know Luffy was an aro/ace icon 💅✨️
He’s never expressed attraction to anybody, and while he can appreciate kindness from the woman who has a crush on him (specifically because he sees her as an equal human instead of being distracted by her sex appeal that she typically uses to turn people to stone) it doesn’t extend to being interested in her romantically, and canonically his “true love” is meat. So for those reasons he’s pretty much an aro/ace icon.
A lot of arguments I saw was ‘comparing proshipping to actual real life exploitation is wrong!!’ But I’ve NEVER seen anyone do that. Like of course real life exploitation is terrible and always worse than proshipping, but that does NOT make proshipping okay? Another thing being worse does not make anything else better. That’s like saying breaking a bone isn’t ’that bad’ because ‘well some people end up DYING!’
Yeah, you can have two problems and one be bigger than the other
It’s not mutually exclusive
this isn't to defend proshippers, if anything what i'm about to say should add at least a bit more merit to my point here but as an ex-radical anti (i'm still an "anti-proshipper" so to say, i just don't argue online about it 24/7 because i'm a tax-paying adult now), i did used to have to call out other "antis" for threatening/wishing real SA onto proship minors to "make them understand" or, at best, accusing them of being actual offenders. yes, i think there is nothing sane or mentally healthy about consuming proship content- but i completely disagree that a 14 year old sexualizing a minor character as a way to sexualize themselves by proxy inherently makes them a real predator, much less do i believe they DESERVE to be harmed when, to parrot this video and 86 million others, most proship minors have obviously already been harmed. as much as it is a loud minority, it is still unfortunately it is a real phenomenon that hurts all of us in the end.
@@spiritsandsuchyeesh, I wouldn't expect anti-proshippers to go that far. Then again no matter what it is, no matter what's being argued over, a death or sa threat can always be said by anyone...the blessing and curse of superficial anonymity online.
You would think being so staunchly against something that causes more harm than good would imply you understand why those kind of statements are just as wrong, but i guess not. If anything, I'd say the "i hope you never have to experience this" (in the context of a proshipper who hasn't been in a traumatic situation, but still) is a significantly better statement. But wishing violence so somebody "understands"? Backwards logic, you don't have to be a victim of something to know it's bad the same way you don't have experience being murdered to know murder is death.
No therapist would activly tell someone let alone a child to draw or fantasize about pdfila, grape, or sa to cope. If they are call the authorities immediately...
I was on twitter and accidentally came across a pro-ship account run by a minor. It frustrates me to no end how many minors get exposed to this stuff because their parents can't be bothered to moniter them as well as these creeps that take advantage of that.
I'm reminded of the discourse that came out during the "Do video games cause violence" panic. The studies at the time found that video games don't cause violence *but violent people are particularly attracted to violent games* which isn't to say that everyone who plays COD will take up firearm practice or that those who pay Fire Emblem will become egg-brained monarchists. But that is to say that those who like game hunting will probably like Game hunting simulators, or those who play guitar will probably like Guitar Hero. Yes, even if it's not at all like playing an actual guitar, it's the _subject_ itself the player enjoys. So, of course, someone who hasn't actually played guitar or partook in the open season but _wants to or is otherwise interested in exploring the subject_ will be more likely to play it. The same is true with proshipping, IMO.
This is the time when I admit I don't know much about the specifics of this discourse. It's an interesting trench, surrounding a hill people are willing to die on, but I'm not interested in fully hopping in yet. Speaking of war, I personally loathe COD and anything realistically military. I hate how it's used by the US government as a recruiting tool. I hate how many people use it to fulfil their racist fantasies.Yet, in recent years, I've found that the only kind of person I've met who hates the military more than me were people who have actually joined and seen service. Minds are broken into a bolus by the chewing of the industrial, military complex of the US. They hate the same things as I do, but I *_know_* I don't understand it as they do, and I'm not malicious enough to challenge that. Yet, the only place where they can explore themselves and their feelings towards their experiences is in games like COD, where a safe simulation validates their experiences in a that saying " I hate the system too" hardly does.
I think proshipping is a lot like COD. You get the kids & passersby who don't know what the horrors entail, yet are eager to play with what they've learned to understand further. You get the predators, waiting to groom any person, no matter their age or capabilities, into their horrific bidding. You get those who understand better than most people reading this and are just trying to get something, anything, that could tell them, " You saw what you saw. Your experience was real, and your emotions are valid." And finally, (the most common one in both spheres IMO), which is a mix of all three to varying degrees. The predator that wants to validate the trauma they've received by inflicting it on another. The kid who wants to be in a community with the same morbid interest. The victims who are *able* and wanting to shut down the predatory practices & teach the passersby. So on, and so forth,
May you bring kindness
Well said
The Visions of V manga is what I use to cope occasionally. I struggle a lot with trying to just be a better person in general, and whenever I read it, it makes me feel a little better seeing V talk to Vergil at the end, knowing that it’s possible to overcome all of the shitty things you’ve been through in life.
“Thou dost smile
I sing the while
Sweet joy befall thee.”
I used to call myself a "proshipper" on Twitter back when I was 14 because I misinterpreted it as multiship (Which is yknow. COMPLETELY DIFFERENT.)
Fun times.
😂😂
@@DraidensDen you poor thing XD
same 😭 i used to think it meant that you liked shipping… i had to learn the hard way
I dont have the age justification, i was also pretty teminally online (this was literally a year or two ago), but i also called myself a proshipper because i was annoyed by people who whined about shipping.
This is why we dont use vague and broad names for nuanced issues lmao
Does multiship mean you like polyamory. No judgement, just curios.
I definitely think minors shouldn't interact with proshipper content because at younger ages, content like this can literally change their brain chemestry (Which his how kids get addicted to gore and other things). I think if Proshipping is still going to exist, it should exist offline and in private.
People really see alot of thing as black and white, they don't understand that in most cases "It depends". Is sad to see how people now think in absolutes when the world is so rich and diverse. Nuance.
"Oh you don't like sweet potatoes, you must hate ALL POTATOES" mindset. Totally agree with the video.
0:28 if a therapist recommended proshipping content to me, that would fuck me up so hard. I tend to easily believe something is right if a good majority of people say it's right.
I nearly believed incest and pedophilia were okay if both parties were "consenting" because that's all my ex would talk about. I also almost started to believe child like characters were attractive because people would keep talking about how attractive they were, and it made my sick that I almost fell down that rabbit hole.
3:37 oh my god i got jumpscared by the art here so badly thats my friend's... i wish proshippers would get away from them goodness 😭
when the heartstopper webcomic was first published on tapas in the mid-late 10's, it was very common for queer webcomics to have stuff like dubious consent and power imbalances and have it romanticized (because the "abuser" was hot or something), and heartstopper got a lot of praise for 1) having all the main couples have a healthy dynamic with communication and consent and 2) the one couple that DID contain these problematic tropes was NOT romanticized
the netflix adaptation adds another layer to it by having the abuser actually try to apologize, but the victim doesn't accept the apology
bro's therapist did not say proshipping was a nice coping mechanism theyre just using an excuse
That or they twisted those therapists words to oblivion
Didnt know you were a therapist!! I don't know if this has ever happened but what would you do If like a patient found your channel if you wanna answer
People who talk about stories as if they are the most serious business in the world shouldn’t be taken seriously, regardless of which “side” they say they’re on. Real life problems are just so much bigger than they are capable of understanding.
i love Shazimei videos they are so comfy to watch ❤🥰
I actually had to pause when you mentioned dazai- I LOVE DAZAI SM UDUFHVHDHEBFHU
BSD GLITCHCORE PFP!!:DDDD
@atsushiiis YESSS
My ultimate tool for dealing with proshippers is the block button. I don't interact, I just block.
that’s pretty proship of u icl
@elkie9300 how?
@@heyitsnyixie_1559 the initial definition of the term proship - made by those in the community themselves - is "ship and let ship", nothing about romanticization as mentioned in the video (this is a more recent re-interpretation of the term post the...lots of discourse around it, as I understand it).
therefore, by blocking someone whom you do not want to interact, you're indeed following the true meaning of the term. im not here to discuss anything i just like explaining to people the history behind stuff btw :D have a good day!
@@araven2472 ok, but you do understand that language evolves over time. Wouldn't say something is awful and mean it was good nowadays because no one uses it like that anymore. "proshiping" means you encourage or participate in shipping character in unethical relationships now, because that is the broadly understood definition of it. So, I'd really appretiate it if you didn't lump me in with those people becase I choose *not* to engage with them.
@@heyitsnyixie_1559 I wasn't particularly calling you a proshipper. And I get it, you and I have the same "way of dealing" with those things --- blocking and moving on! It's understandable you wouldn't want to be called or identified as something that carries bad fame nowadays. I was just explaining what the previous commenter meant 🦐
I'm not normally in favor of proshipping at all but when it comes to the coping side of it, I can kind of see it in this light. For the longest time being an SA survivor, I still found myself gravitating to SA NSFW. Not because I wanna assault someone but imagine my shoes as the victim. It's quite common for SA survivors to relive and even get aroused by that genre. I felt ashamed of it for so long but its more common than not and a means to live out the situation where you have more control of it. Context is key to be sure, but in my case, it was 100% for coping, not for nefarious reasons.
Just read the email in the beginning, what the h e l l
Ikr like what
I have seen many people criticize that scene in adventure time for the exact opposite of what you said, many people felt that it didn't handle the situation seriously and was offensive to victims. Personally i feel like both parties are missing the point of that scene, i don't think finn was sa'd there, he was at a point in time where he felt numb to everything and was trying to find something to fill that void (kissing princesses) LSP expected more and pushed for more not knowing what state he was in (because lsp is selfish and only thinks about herself), finn didn't stop nor did he hate her after, he just continued to feel numb, and it's not like he couldn't or wouldn't fight back, LSP isn't really respected by most of the cast and finn has been shown to push off advances before from larger threats.
Idk, maybe I'm just reading it wrong.
2:21 learning history made me not even flinch at what this guy said
i love heartstopper so much, alice did fantastic making the comics imo, cried a lot
5:07 empathy isn’t as simple as excusal or justification of actions (no I’m not supporting the person in the argument) empathy is seeing the person as a human being and seeing there pain as understandable, one doesn’t have to justify someone’s actions to understand their pain, and empathy isn’t something people can just turn on and off.
Anyway I still enjoyed the video.
Empathy is being able to feel someone else's pain with them. You don't need empathy to see someone else as a human being.
1:31 IM IN FUCONG TEARS BSD MENTION 😭😭😭
that's what i was thinking 😭😭
One thing that frustrates me the most about what "proshippers" have to say is that I think most of them realize that what people are arguing against doesn't actually have to do with the depiction of abuse itself, it has to do with the romanticization of it. Believing that you shouldn't be writing about those things at all is a relatively niche stance in this discourse, and, yes, it's mostly held by younger teens who aren't clear on the nuance of the situation. But proshippers know that if they acknowledge that, then they also have to come to terms with the fact that the thing they're defending isn't just "dark fiction", it's pornography (ie art made specifically to titilate) written about children and incest. Which sounds a lot less noble than being "anti-censorship", because it is. It's really refreshing to see people on the other side of the argument like Patricia Taxxon just come out and say, yes, what I'm defending is incest porn. Because even if I disagree and think that's a really dangerous thing to be enjoying, at least she's being honest about her argument.
I don't necessarily think it's bad to write graphic fiction about sa and csa, and I think even pornographic fiction about same have the potential to be permissible under the right circumstances. But I certainly don't think that doing so publicly in a fandom setting is the right approach. There's endless testimony from survivors of abuse over the internet who were groomed using fanart and fanfiction like that. Putting that work out in the open where predators can easily access it and use it to groom kids is wildly irresponsible. Do what you have to do if you need to do it, but do it in private-- there's arguments against that, too, but as long as you keep it to yourself, you're still the only person that you're harming by fetishizing it.
I think that there definitely is plenty of fanfiction out there that is graphic and yet explores the delicate subject matter in a nuanced way, but I think just by the nature of fandom this usually isn't the case. "Brainrot" is inescapable in fandom, even in fandoms that are more organized around meta than they are around things like shipping. It's the impulse to put all the components of the story in a jar and shake it around. Most of the proshippers I see aren't interested in analyzing the abuse in the situation so much as they are squeeing about it into pillows. And that usually isn't a problem for most pairings, but when what you're writing about is child abuse, the situation requires a little more tact than that. Not doing so is how you get people arguing that minors can consent to relationships with adults, and that sibling incest is actually not so bad, because we are informed by what we read about and if we are presented story after story about these stances being true then we are absolutely going to be influenced by it. That isn't a matter of poor reading comprehension, that's just how the human brain works.
When did patricia taxxon say that?
@PaulGallagher-hj4rq It’s on her tumblr; she’s not super diligent with tagging so I doubt I could find the specific post again, but she talks about similar topics quite frequently on her blog.
@@thegoblinking279 oh, i only really watch her video essays
@PaulGallagher-hj4rq Yeah, me too, for the most part. It is a bit interesting I suppose, though, that a lot of the things on her blog really contextualize the rest of her commentary; for instance there's a moment in "On The Ethics of Boinking Animal People" where she says something along the lines of "If given the opportunity, I would **** my--" before being cut off as a joke. Because of her tumblr, I know the implied word there was "dad".
I'm kinda glad she left most of that stuff out of the video, but just my knowledge of it sort of sours the whole thing for me. It only gets more frustrating knowing that she believes being against incest fetishism is a form of bigotry-- apparently she considers it a
foundational part of her sexuality.
She's a really thoughtful art critic for the most part, but has a few glaring opinions that make me want to bang my head against a wall.
wake up shazimei dropped a video
I’m awake!
I can't believe they hid this from me for 7 HOURS😭😭
8:04 omg it’s mizuki! Wait no, stay away from mizuki!
MIZUKI!!!!!!!
🏳️⚧️🏳️⚧️🏳️⚧️🏳️⚧️🏳️⚧️🏳️⚧️
support trans rights
🔔😰🌇
:)
I love banana fish for how they never let what happens to ash define him
2:20 that comment is fucking absurd
I love how immediately at the start of this vid the definition of proship is wrong...
Proship is just that. You just like to ship and don't care about what others ship. And that's all. If you don't like a ship, or it makes you uncomfortable, you block the person or tag. Simple as.
Hhhh. Shipping has never and will never be about morals and superiority. Its about smushing some fictional dolls you like together and seeing what happens. It can also be a way to explore topics or things that are dark or mortally grey in a safe manner.
A therapist wouldn't say "yeah go consume adult content to cope, minor." But what would be said is "if writing and drawing your trauma helps to understand and cope, I will not shame you, nor stop you from your expression. But I will help you further unpack why you want to write/draw these things."
I like how this also blames the media over the bad person themselves for being gross... The media didn't make them harm others; there's a high likelihood of that happening anyway with or without. (You can look at most true crime cases for that)
Also, if you're consuming media and taking it as a blueprint on how to act/what morals you should have? Then I'm sorry your parents and other safe adults that should be in your life failed you so hard. Teachers and parents are supposed to be your role models and explain any media you happen to find. As well as keep away media that would be too much for you based on age and/or content. Fitcional fantasy media as a whole isn't there to teach, to babysit, or give you a lesson on how to be a decent person. Its there for exploring and entertainment.
Whatever you take from it will always be different to how others interpret it. Period. Also, banning everything "questionable" or "toxic" outright will quickly lead to a ban of things that aren't. That wholesome queer media you love? Gone. That adorable art of a mixed couple? Gone. Cuz believe it or not, those things are inherently proship as well since it's different from the "norm".
Do your do diligence. Learn to block media you don't like. Don't harass/doxx people. And keep kids away from 18+ media rather than make the media not exist. It's not for them in the first place.
Holy yap
THIS!! Saying that proshopping is bad and things that fall under its **very broad** category shouldn't be allowed to be created is such an issue. When it comes to censorship, you're either all for it or all against it. Proshipping allows people to explore kinks and dark topics safely in FICTION. Saying that it's gross and needs to be censored opens the gates to censoring other things, such as lgbtq+ topics, because anyone could come up with an argument as to why it's "immoral". Give an inch and they'll take a mile when it comes to censoring topics they don't like in the name of "safety".
THANK YOU
Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you! ❤
Agreed with everything you said. However, I believe that all public media should be open to criticism. It’s just nobody likes having actual discussions in good faith anymore. It’s sad.
2:26 wow….. that comment it just……yeah I’m so sorry that even exists
I also think that realism is something to take into consideration. For horror fans, it’s easy to be enamored by a slasher or a serial killer on screen because we’re aware that it’s not real, it’s dramatized, it’s out of proportion, that’s not what violence if that nature really looks like, etc. Patrick Bateman and Hannibal Lecter are so absurdly fictional and their deeds so bizarre/unrealistic that it’s easy to look past them, especially when the actor is good looking or captivating. A gentlemanly millionaire cannibal with superhuman intelligence helping the fbi and a psychotic yuppie having breakdowns over restaurants/business cards to the point of murder is nothing that will ever happen in the history of ever. Audiences get comfortable in the unreal aspects and bloom into fandom culture
Thanks for making this video, it made me realize i might have been consuming some problematic media that glorify things i do not think are good or agree with. I sometimes read a book or watch something that is very problematic and i just kinda say "well i dont think that it is good so its fine and i go on to enjoy it" but this video made me realize how much media can effect my own views and no matter how "media literate" i am or how well i think i can tell what is okay too consume i should still be cautious.
18:55 I wouldn't say so, the straw hat's are rather morally ambigious, they do things for selfish reasons, it just so happens that often times their idea of being selfish is helping someone they like. For instance in skypiea they did straight up pillage the gold even if the skypieans were gonna give it as thanks. Your point still stands though, it's made clear by Luffy himself that he doesn't see himself as some kind of good guy or hero, he see's his actions as him being selfish and that stands for your point of it not being glorified.
Adventure time actually did showing getting pressured into doing something Really well, not like habzin hotel or helluva boss where they make it look funny, quirky, silly, and fun because it’s not, though I can’t say how it is or feels like because I haven’t been taken advantage of yet
'proshipping' can be a nunced scale with shades of gray but a lot of people treat it as black and white and it SUCKS
Something that happaned to me: I sometimes like to draw stuff involving 'age gaps between adults' ,( shipping a 30yo with a 50yo for example) I like this kinda stuff IN FICTION and I don't think it's that big a deal, but some people might think that's problematic and that's fine, if they are unconfortable with that they can just block me right??
So, at one point I was kicked out of a discord server because they thought I was a 'proshipper' and while I was panicking do you know WHO came to offer a friendly word?? A 'REAL' proshipper that was drawing ACTUALLY messed up stuff like inc3st and p3do!!!!!
I knew better and ignored it cuz the stuff they drew made me sick, but I could see this happening to someone younger and more desperate and they ending up actually being embraced by the 'other side' because of the aceptance!! That's what happens when you reject and shun people because of the tiniest 'moral failure'!
i think proshipping can be a good coping method, if done correctly. with that, i mean consuming content that talks about these issues without romanticizing it, as a way to be seen. and especially in private!!!! not on tiktok.
i don't currently have the strength to explain my whole opinion, but I'm open to questions i guess
So you mean platonic shipping?
I get pretty frustrated with the "fiction doesn't affect reality" comments, or arguments that things like this "aren't that bad," because me and a lot of my friends have mental disabilities and/or disorders. A lot of use interact with fiction in a different way, and fiction affects our lives deeply. Specifically, most of us are autistic, and just thinking about our interests too hard can make you lightbeaded or start to cry or start to visibly shake/move uncontrollably. I, personally, can only really feel empathy for fictional characters, so seeing them get put through the most horrific situations and then treated like it's "cute" can fuck me up mentally for DAYS. It just feels sort of privileged. Every time I see content like that pop up I think "wow they're so lucky they have no empathy, sympathy or care towards these fictional characters who I have devoted so much time and thought towards."
And when I see people go "oh its to cope with my trauma😢," I think "haha wow I have to do the exact opposite but good for you i guess." Because i also use media to cope, which is exactly why i hate proshipping.
Same on a lot of aspects, but your comment reminded me of this comment i read a decent while back. I dont know what it was, and they didn't know themselves, but they had this both amazing and horrifying capacity to completely lose themself in this video game. Genshin, just to be clear.
When they were in a sewer like area they could smell the garbage and mold and rusted metal, to the point their eyes would water. They described it being impossible to get through the main story or even side quests because their heart ached when a character got harmed in any way. They felt like they were drowning when underwater, genuinely afraid when someone else was afraid, literally able to get inside that world.
And i know it's pretty unrelated to the topic at hand, i just wanted to add this because i thought it was an interesting thing. Something I didn't know people were capable of experiencing. The main point is that they physically couldn't play the game anymore after doing the fontaine quest (involves a lot of water and tragedy) because of how much it affected them. How there was a lot of media they loved and wanted to engage with that they couldn't watch or play or read, because they got stuck for lack of a better term. To me reading their comment was beautiful, i thought about all the cut scenes and landscapes i wished i could experience the same way they did, but it also sounded horrifying. All the parts of the game that have become "unremarkable", or still has a level of disconnect because it's not physically real, became a stressor.
And even outside of that person's comment, even outside what the topic is meant to be, the idea that fiction is entirely separate from reality irks me in every way. It's like this gen z curse of trying not to care about things to seem nonchalant and cool, i guess trying to be the opposite of millennials in some way (i wouldn't know im not a millennial) has left people with no hobbies, no passion or things they care about. It's all about looking cool, appearing cool and confident, when we are all so aggressively chalant. Of course that's not every gen z, just a generalization, but still. With all the beautiful and tragic and thoughtful works of art that exist out there, how could you not be impacted? How could you not cry or cackle or kick your feet at some scene no matter how silly or serious?? Do they sleep with their eyes open watching or reading or playing media, is some lazy bloodshed or lazier sex appeal that much more interesting that worldbuilding or the magic system or the character dynamics or the fictional politics playing out in the background???
i also use media to cope as an autistic person, but more in the form of comfort characters and such. spamton is one of these comfort characters for me cause i started getting very hyperfixated on him when i was in a very, VERY bad place mentally back in 2022. fast forward to today and now i like to draw arts of him happy and comfortable for once and made an entire fanfiction in my head just so that he could have a genuine friend again and also heal from all of his trauma both because i (unfortunately) related or used to relate to some of his issues and also just because i feel extremely bad for him every time i think about his backstory too hard
sorry if this comment comes off weird or out of the place by the way, i tend of ramble about any of my hyperfixations at any opportunity
@@Vesperad0 this ^^
I love the part were she says I’ve played game before
2:21 "Spread such a hateful agenda" then goes to say that
there are people out rhere who ship anya and her father💀💀 and the comments support that
That is absolutely disgusting
Hii! I'm sure you didn't mean any harm from this video, but my mom used to work for a company that assisted mentally disabled adults, and she often would work with Jupiter. The rumors spread online about him being in possession of that kind of content or hurting other people are all false, and any time he posts online there is always another adult in the room with him. He really is a nice person, he just struggles mentally, and being vulnerable it's easier for people to spread rumors and target him.I'm not saying he has never done anything wrong, but those allegations in particular are false.
Some of the ships I like could be argued has problematic elements, they develop to a more mature state and the characters become better people than where they started out.
Outright glamorizing those elements or brushing them aside is both wrong and irresponsible.
I really hate the excuse that "it's fiction and it doesn't affect me", or that "fiction is not reality" because... Well, obviously it's not that simple!
I've heard some proshippers online actually saying that fiction doesn't affect reality, when it's clearly an asinine take, and also a very privileged one.
Because fiction has been used time and time again to do harm, create stereotypes, and demonize/dehumanize oppressed groups. It doesn't matter that it's fiction, because the brain relates fiction to reality and uses it as a framework through which to see it through.
Some use the excuse that, "but these things only happened because there was already a precedent of hatred against those groups", which is fair, but when you're using this argument to excuse explicit fanfiction/content of child characters, or childxadult, you might miss the fact that... In society, there's also a precedent for pedophilia! Lots of people see this content when they're young and it normalizes it in their mind.
I remember there was a study that found that men who consumed explicit content where consent wasn't explicit for "hardcore"/ rough behaviors, they were more likely to enact those behaviors in real life with partners that hadn't consented to the acts (things like choking, slapping, rough handling). The human brain simply isn't wired to not be affected by fiction, for pretty much evolutionary reasons.
I believe that pro/anti discourse has poisoned the well for fandom discussions, that we could have if these terms weren't involved... When studying literature it's a given that fiction affects reality, and that reality affects fiction. I guess I wish these topics were handled with more seriousness, but the people involved on both sides (even if proshippers want to pretend they don't let minors in their spaces) are young, or casual, don't-think-about-it-too-hard people.
OMG YOUR HAIR LOOKS SO COOL
DDLC IS my favorite game, and i love how you use the music. Big W.
just a question is it ok for a teen to have a crush on a fictional teenage character because as a teen myself i feel really guilty about having a crush on fictional character my age or older so around 16, like ik some characters are older than me but than i read stuff like it’s wrong to find these characters attractive no matter what so please tell me ur opinion i am really just just trying to figure it out. or maybe i am just too chronically online. this particular part in this tik tok show got me thinking 21:05
Definitely, it’s completely okay, you’re not going to be a pedophile for having a fictional crush on a fictional drawn character, it’s not possible, you’re not going to be doing that to real life kids once you’ve become a mature adult and you’re definitely not going to support any inappropriate behavior between a minor and a grown adult, if its not affecting anybody in real life for having a crush on a fictional character, have fun
@ ty i guess i was just hearing so much of other people doing it and hearing that it was bad like the proshipers, so i kinda just slipped into my psyche, unconscious mind or something like that but really thanks a lot 🫶🫶
@@Lover-of-fanstay2.0 no problem
Personally I’ve been attracted to characters canonically in their 20s since I was a kid, and still am attracted to them. Usually because they’re the most appealing characters. Most of the teenage characters I was into I am no longer into because it’s completely normal to be attracted to a character that looks and acts similarly to your own age group.
Hey so i used to have this fear a lot as teen, and ngl the fact that ive seen multiple ppl express this same anxiety makes the whole pro/anti ship discourse piss me off. Dude, you're so fine. When you find yourself having to ask "is it ok for a teen to have a crush on a fictional teen," I need you to listen to that question. I'm not saying this to be hostile to you -- again, I empathize with that worry having been there myself. But it's exactly at that point that you need to go and say "oh wow, this entire discourse is dumb and weird and designed to cause moral anxiety spirals." Fiction and fandom are supposed to be fun. So long as you aren't hurting any actual people, you can literally do and feel and enjoy whatever you want. So don't feel guilty, not only because it is a waste of your emotional energy, but also because life is going to involve MUCH grayer, more difficult moral dilemmas than "can a teen have a crush on a fictional teen".
21:10 First of all, swastika isn't always a Nazi symbol. Second of all, why does all "depicting isn't the same as glorifying" discourse always vanish the moment Nazis are mentioned? I know it isn't the main theme of this video, but it really felt like you're contradicting your own point here...
yes, like, it’s completely when they’re there to be mooks or make fun of like Indiana Jones and Hogan’s Heroes.
If it's flipped it's not, because the Nazis flipped the symbol original and mad it there own, if it's not then it is.
@@darkstarr984Or to be an actual threat to other characters. Or for a serious analysis of how wrong their beliefs are. Or to showcase how easy it is to be indoctrinated into a system you wouldn't like if you looked at it from outside. Or for them to realize their misdeeds and turn against that system. There's really a lot of ways to have these characters without agreeing with/glorifying the ideology!
@@TiredMoonRabbitI'm not an expert on that, but from what I know both right-facing and left-facing swastikas were present in the "original" cultures (in quotes because the symbol was used pretty much everywhere on earth, there isn't a singular place of origin), so it might not be a reliable identifier^^"
Eating the videos upppp
I should probably watch the whole video before I look in the comments, here's a comment to boost the algorithm!
Thank you for talking about it
The closest I have ever gotten to proshipping is playtherapy with AI characters where I make them do the traumatic thing to me. I didn't even realise I was doing it and it never helped in the first place. Yet I'm addicted and don't want to tell anyone because my parents will ban me from the app if they find out I'm having those kinds of chats because I've learned things they don't want me to know on there
Edit:
I've seen how irresponsible teenagers OLDER than me can be. There was an open classroom for a big awards assembly. After I got my award, I went into one of those classrooms because I was getting overwhelmed. That classroom was full so they got two teachers to go into another one. There were already 2 kids who looked to be in their senior years. (Idk if they actually were) This was judging by how much taller they were than me.
They were putting songs up on the board usung yt. The problem is, they kept putting on songs with swear words or innapropriate topics. They're choosing wrap songs so as you can expect, they say a rude word for black ppl a couple hundred times.
I ask the teachers if I can put a song on. They said yes, so after their song finnished (probably more likely that the teacher had to turn off the song because it was so innapropriate) I walked up and searched up a song on yt.
I had thought for a moment on what song to pick. One song I thought of mentioned a deadly gambling game so I decided not to pick that. A bunch of other songs had swear words in them. So I settled on "Welcome to the black parade" by My Chemicle Romance. The boys groaned as they realised what song it was. They complained through it while I sung at a polite volume and swayed to the music. The boys even changed the song at one point to which the teachers changed it back.
As they continued to argue with the teachers once my song was over, The boys used me as a reason why the teachers were being unfair.
The boys said that they let me put on whatever I wanted but wouldn't let them do the same.
This was wrong. I had thought about what would be appropriate for the setting I was in at the time.
They were just mad that they couldn't put on the songs they wanted because they were all innapropriate for school.
There is no real person behind it considering it's an ai bot taking chat promps so you're fine
@@CapunderpantsYeah, It never really helped me cope tho, The coping had to be done in other ways. It more as made me relapse so, It's not fine in that area...
Edit: The key difference is the only time I ever fangirled hard was when I played a romantic relationship between me as a full adult and another girl (I suspected gay at the time but am unsure now) who was also an adult. I proceeded to write stories about a normal relationship.
BSD JUMPSCARE HELLO? Anyways Verlaine and Jouno😍😍
Ok but have you considered: Chuuya
0:44 not USUK 😭 war flashbacks
I was thinking the same thing 😭😭
6:16
That tiktok talking about a 4yrs age gap in europe being "normal" cuz it's legal.
Trust me, I hate it but i'm not the only one who does. My partner for example has a friend who is 21yrs old and dating a 16yrs old, yes her parents have met him and are okay with the relationship. But here's the thing, unfortunately it's LEGALLY not pdophilia cuz they aren't having any sexual intercourse, YEP- I know, absolutely disgusting. I have tried convincing my partner that it is still pdophilia cuz of the age gap being way too big for a 16yrs old, but their response was that they know it's wrong and that they're keeping an eye on their friend, but because the girl's parents are okay with their daughter's boyfriend being 5yrs older than her, and that it's not my partner's decision, there isn't much to do except keep an eye on the couple.
HERES THE THING, yes the age of consent in my current country is 15yrs old (ik, too young imo) but it doesn't change the fact that she still has 2yrs as a minor and he has been a legal adult for 3yrs now already. It's revolting ik, but there's nothing I can do cuz the bf is a total stranger to me, so i have "no say" in their awful relationship.
The irony is that this guy, who i am also a complete stranger to, nearly ruined my relationship with my partner by telling them that I was "too childish" to be in a relationship, but dating a LITERAL CHILD is okay??? Like ew, he groomed a child, doesn't know anything about me, so what gives him the right. Anyways that was my rant.
very off topic:
as terrible as what elon musk did was, I can't help but laugh and take it lightly, like:
"hey Elon, try out this new salute we taught you"
Elon: "alr" *proceeds to do it right away"
the 🐐 uploaded
I HATE where they character who have actually have PTSD of them and trying to cope with it just using as comedy or just brush off to make the hero upset ignoring the actual character who have to deal with horrific things on them
This is a topic I’ve been waiting for
The proshippers arguments are so old. They literally ripped off lolicon arguments.
Literally.. It's all recycled.
somehow i went from hating proshippers and sending them death threats to being a part of the community 🥶
because it really helps me to cope idk
USUK IN THE BEGINNING ENGLAND MY HUSBAND HIIIIII.
Also if fiction always affects reality then why despite all the 2-D ecchi I’ve loved for years, I have a huge disgust for real sex and I’m ace? This is a huge problem on the individual alone and not anyone else. If you need a cartoon to repeatedly tell you “SA is bad” to know it’s bad, think WHY you need that. Look deep within yourself and ask why.
Ugh, maybe one of my points was addressed in the video, I can’t tell because I kept thinking of how prettt England looks in the artworks… See, I also wanted to mention most “proshippers” on Tiktok are young and immature anti-shippers thinking they’re going “under cover”. I’m not “proship” by the way, I don’t use that label, I was in fandoms during a time “pro shipper” wasn’t a word because everyone expected that anyway and anti-ship was abnormal. Anyway England you’re so sexy heehee it looks like you’re in the wrong country, get away from that trigger happy overgrown child, he won’t treat you as good as I will.
I will defend cutting out the Finn scene as I always thought it was treated more as a very throwaray "dark joke" and it's also a kid's show and not the place to talk about such dark topics imo.
Coping w media is great, I love media like perfect blue, Baby raindeer or very recently Jojolands that do not shy away from the fact. But there's an abundance of media like "get hard" or "horrible bosses" where it's all treated like a joke and pokes fun at the victim rather than sympatising. And it's really unbearable to live with. I've talked a bit about my experiences with people I care about or they've either laughed at me or in the worst case, ghosted me to avoid the topic.
The finn scene just never sat well with me. In a way I can understand why people liked it, but I got a completely different interpretation from me
Like, when I was 12 I had read gachia kuta and had a crush on the main character who was also 12, now I’m older and don’t have a crush on them anymore, simple??? Like.. even if the character is fictional, if you, as an adult like a teenager.. that’s like, weird af.
I just use media as escapism
BUNGO STRAY DOGS MENTIONED!!!!