I’ve always seen laser etching as a cheap alternative to stamping or rolling, but that logo is super nice looking on them axes. Maybe make it a little deeper for longevity? So in 50-100 years when someone finds one of those in a relatives shed, with a coat of rust it can be restored and the logo still be visible. Or maybe use your laser engraver to make a stamp like that and use the press to stamp the axes when finishing forging? Just ideas man, good work!
i would do the positive/negative strategy, but put steel powder in the middle to take up the extra space. I think the laser doesn't cut straight down (it leaves a bit of a slope), so there will always be some imperfections in the matchup.
His laser is not automatically adjusting the focus point as it removes material, It results in the beam diverging making the process take longer and be less precise, The better way of doing it on this machine would be to have stop points every 2 mm of depth and adjust the distance of the lens to compensate for the beam divergence. Laser etching can be incredibly accurate, just need to take account of the beam divergence
Could even make the gaps bigger on purpose, and then basically have three patterns from the two materials and the powder. It should also make less chance of cold shuts.
Fascinating stuff, however, I am genuinely concerned for your eye safety. Lasers can reflect, bounce, with no control over direction. Please consider adding a shield! I want to continue to see (pun intended) more of your content! :)
I think that the laser creates oxidation on the burnt surface... I would try a vinegar etch on the parts before welding and instead of borax as a flux I would soak it in diesel... I think you could make some incredible patterns that way... Also if instead of etching you make cutouts to fill with powder, then you won't have to worry about the pattern going away from grinding
That’s also something I was wondering, since the laser is burning the metal away. I also thought of maybe a heavy bead or sand blasting but I bet etching would work better
Hey dude, you can just use the metal power for negative part. This will help you with the gaps. And use the acid for positive part after laser. Regards from Ukraine.
I think you should try again the positive/negative technique but with a much larger clearance (like .25 mm/0.01 inches) AND filling the gap in between using a very thin layer of powder. Nice experiment anyway !
I think you need to try to find a more organic pattern - one that doesn't rely quite so heavily on perfectly straight lines. ANY work you do to the steel after is just going to mess up your original pattern. So if you can find something that's more organic, it'll be ok when it warps.
This method would be awesome to use copper in-between the steel for mokume gane billet. Because the weakness of mokume gane is that it's difficult to make a mosaic pattern, but with lasers you can.
Tim you may want to laser etch completely through two pieces of say 15N20 1/16" thick material, then sandwich that with a piece of CRV80 then sandwich the whole thing with some stainless sheet in essence creating a canister style. of course before adding the stainless you will need to fill the voids with some 1085 powder or whatever contrasting steel powder. then forge that as you would a canister, this was the pattern will show consistent through both sides? Just a suggestion.
It feels like the powder is much better for the small and intricate patters, since its easier for it to melt and fill the spaces. I'd imagine the positive & negative technique would be great for larger patters, where youre able to properly design in some draft angles to let it mesh together better. You may want to try it again and add in some powdered 1095 to see if it helps to fill in those cracks and coldshuts?
If you want to keep experimenting with this type of pattern welding steel you really should get some designs cut out using wire EDM. It will be the most precise method as well as giving you the cleanest surfaces to try welding to. I know you can't afford to buy the machine to do it but there are plenty of companies that will do it for you as long as you send them the 3D model of what you want them to make and of course pay them. For what you are doing, it shouldn't cost very much to get everything made.
Its a super interesting concept makes me wonder if you were to take a Damascus billet and use the laser to burn in the design a couple layers deep sort of like making a rain drop or ladder pattern and drawing out the billet into a bar. I know the design would distort but that could make for some pretty wild designs.
I think you should integrate both process' into one. Do the negative and positive engravings but add powder to it as well to fill in the gaps. Probably even make lower tolerances between the two so you have room for plenty of powder. So combine the 2 process'.
For the positive negative, perhaps a mid heat to melt some flux with iron powerder betwen the billets, then melt them together, would have a better chance of a solid, no void weld. Good luck, this is a kicka$$ path!
Popped in from a youtube recommendation. Really glad i did. Great content. And with so many youtube smiths all using gas forges, it's great to see someone use a coke forge.
Good job, Tim. I wasn't always a fan of your forge, but you've been picking it up lately with unique ways of using modern tools. Thank you for providing interesting content to me.
How gross. "I wasn't always a fan of your forge but..." what terrible childhood did you have that you think that is a compliment. Or that anyone cares if.you were "fan" previously. Get a life.
Timothy, Well you win some and you lose some. But the main thing is you learn something from experimenting. Thank you for taking the time to film, edit and post this video.
Try cleaning after the laser, before sandwiching. Or perhaps tolerate out the pieces by 0.1mm or such to allow the pieces to fit together without allowing tons of air to be trapped
I'd would venture to guess pressing a small amount of metal powder between the positive and negative would do the trick, maybe even using a 3rd type of steel to vary the contrasts even more. Another idea would be adjusting to give just a little more tolerance between the two parts for a positive/negative fitup.
Hey bud if you try this again get the bottom half hot so it will expand and put the top in the freezer so it will shrink a bit before trying to put them together like when you re sleeve a cylinder on a motor and see if that helps them pop together! Then tig three of the sides and try to get some powder steel in between them to fill the voids.
What would look pretty cool is if you laser etched the pattern then melted a thin copper plate on top and finally forge weld 15n20 on top giving you the dark pattern from the carbon steel outlined by the copper and nickel
It seems like the 2 part piece wants to have the negative be through holes rather than etched to depth. That way there is no way for entrapment at the bottom of the holes, and if the positive plate is just a bit thicker/proud on the other end of the through holes then it would upset more readily to make total pattern contact. Probably a lot faster to cut through holes rather than deep etch too!
I really don't see that laser working out on this pos/neg technique, the tolerances are pushing it. Cool technique and design! The powder really compressed and cleaned up after forging! you'll want to account for that shrinkage in designs. awesome stuff cheers.
The coolest idea here is using dissimilar properties in alloys to create much more precise internal structures. These structures could utilize the dissimilar properties more precisely. You’d need a Materials Scientist to tell you exactly the equations and specs for that. But it’s probably some of the things that make up parts and designs in things like Classified Military stuff. On a completely unrelated note. You ever think to try three tone Patterned Welded Steel?
That could be a pretty amazing thing. I can see knives or axes with intricate dragons or Wolves or whatever other design actually pattern welded into the metal. As far as the first Billet that you used to metal powder on looking grainy previously and then looking better after this experiment, I would guess that's just down to more forging. Extra heat and pounding compressed the grains into a more uniform substance.
ok so crazy idea, can you etch the pattern into something like acrylic, and make a mold for 1080 power and add in a binder (something thin that would burn off Paraffin? bees wax? sugar water? Maple syrup??) which would get you your positive shape. then in a canister add in the 15n20 power which would fill in the negative. you'd get the same(ish) effect, but the laser should be able to etch the acrylic way faster and you could make way bigger blanks, also the mold could be reused.
I would agree with your results there Timothy, that the powder filled pattern is definitely the best option to go forward with, but the cracks in the steel where you forged it into shape concern me. I think that the nature of the Lazer etching of the cold steel might be a problem. I saw you had the blank up to temperature but yet there are still cracks in the steel where the steel pattern meets and distorts due to forging. perhaps it might require a hotter temperature before forging to shape or perhaps making a blank and simply cutting the knife shape out of the blank would be the best way to use the powder filled laser etched blank. it certainly might be a problem for those who would want a hand hammer forged blade but if those cracks still keep occurring, I can't see much of an alternative way to incorporate the laser etching into a blade, other than simply using the laser for logo etching into the steel. which looks totally Dope, BTW.
you might try etching the pieces in a nitro or argon blanket, get some cleaner pieces out that should weld better. Think of it as if your CNC'ing, the gas being the "flushing fluid" keeping the oxygen out while also actually flushing out any vaporized metals, just putting a tig blasting into the surface at an angle should work.
I think positive/negative would work, but you just need a different pattern: the stars are just too "sharp" at the ends and even with a lot of forging don't have enough material to squish out and fill the gaps unless you have a 100% perfect positive/negative fit up (which you did not, even after pressing).. Secondly, I think you have to not be afraid of a little distortion and really squish the parts together: I don't recall if you have a hydraulic press, but it may be what's required for the pressure vs. the fly press..
The moment i saw how cold the damascus was getting whith you still hammering away i knew there would be cracks everywhere..and it looks like i was right once it was shown at the end.
hey tim! this new project is very cool!! 😎 cant wait to see more of it. It does seem like the gaps are caused by a side effect of the lasering process, the side walls are probably tapered from the gradually changing depth/focal point of the beam. as depth increases beam accuracy decreases making the cut softer/less crisp. seems like the negative side needs extra depth clearance so that the positive can properly wedge its self in place. also wire EDM cutting would be able to produce the perfect pre conditions for this forge welding process, almost guaranteeing that it would weld without any gaps (might be out of budget though😅).
Cool.. Im just thinking... If u have a solid plate and drill holes in it to forge press in metal powder in the cavity , you need more powder than you can fill in one press. You have to figure out a technique to overfill any cavity or else you'll always have an issue with a risk for cracks in-between powder and steel when yo decide to hammer it out to a new form. to Sustain a forge that is flexible ro be able to later be altered and driven int o a new shape or form, overfill is needed.. Loved your ideas, gave me some perspective and help in my dreams.
There's definitely potential here. I know that when doing inlaid patterns in wood (on a cnc) you can use tapered shapes to make assembly easier and I think gluing better. Tapering for you might help with the forge welding because you'll be pushing the metals into each other rather than relying on mushrooming to weld them. You'd have to be more careful with grinding because the pattern will now vary because of the taper, but that seems like a small price if it actually welds properly.
Very interesting idea. At this point, I don't know how/if I can really control the tapering. There is some naturally there from the "kerf" but its pretty small. Keep the ideas coming!
@@TimothyDyckso what I would do is make a square of know what size, say 1cm x 1cm, run it however deep you want and then measure the angle of that wall. But I think it would really just depend on where you do your design since the beam is essentially coming down in a cone as the mirror moves. Sooo if you can always do it at the same point then you could kind of figure out how you need to skew your design to get a true negative. In CNC a lot of people do a flat bottom and angled walls so there is more contact for the glue, but I think in this case that would just give you more areas that wouldn't weld. I think you need to look into topographic greyscale 3D images that way you can kind of control the 3D aspect of the engrave.
looking at this, I see a possibility of planning a pattern that would plan ahead for distortions while forging. so the pattern planned for the tip would be different from the rest.
Why not put a little metal power for the positive/negative forging process, maybe make the gaps a fraction wider between the patterns so the powder goes in between ? Maybe it would help with the cold shuts?
I think there is something to be said about the star?!?! pattern one that didn't turn out to "well". I think that it looks super cool but you should try do a pattern with less intersections and maybe not such fine detail. I think that before it gets welded those tips of the inside of the star are so small that they are burning off or breaking off or something like that. so maybe try it with a stripped pattern. yes that probably wont look super cool but I think it has a better chance of success to learn from for future stuff.
you can use a hybrid powder but with a binder so you can squish it in. maybe something like one of those liquid metal thermal pastes or some kind of solder paste with added iron or something similar, molecular steel or something to bridge the gaps. ie make both blocks with the patterns coat them in the metal paste squish them together see how it works out. maybe even some metal that's got high solubility inside steel so it amalgamates like a glue should also highlight it a bit. Colloidal silver would be ideal, you can also try running your laser over the metal in an oxygen atmosphere to help with machining away the pattern more quickly and consistently if you can treat your metal beforehand to get a decent tempering pattern you'll be able to get a better reaction with oxygen so make several bars with several different tempers then compare how the laser erodes them and one of the tempers will erode better than the others, you want your metals' crystallization to be as dense as possible with as many crystals as possible minimizing for size so whichever temper level gets you this will give you the best surface finish to your ablation. so maximising for smooth surface finish by pre-preparing your blocks before you erode them will give you a better result than trying to solve the issue after the fact with a hack even if the colloidal silver will probably give you a nicer finish it's better to have both and then use gold or silver as your glue. so yeah start preparing a set of billets for every temper you can then narrow this down and repeat until you can get to an optimal temper for the best surface finish, you're burning metal crystals so the smaller they are the smoother your finish is going to be and you also need to have enough oxygen to burn away the metal at a consistent rate and the better ability you have to burn it off and blow it away the more likely it is to be consistent, so either blast it with a high pressure stream of air while you're ablating it or run some oxygen over it to burn it off faster, you've probably got a better shot just blasting it with a high pressure air stream than oxygen not to mention to fire hazard. you want a maximum net mass flow away from the parent metal so that you're getting rid of as much metal from the location as possible and not having a plasma cloud sticking around eroding things willy-nilly. There's probably a goldilocks zone for this so finding it will be a matter of messing with your pressure. But yeah just make an assay out of it by doing everything in parallel and you'll find a balance and then if you give it the amalgamation option with gold leaf or colloidal silver or something similar it'll probably not have any gaps left in it at the end.
maybe laser completely through, set up the same canister rig, but with the flat open, instead of the top, fill with powder and smoosh. hopefully all the extra power gets pressed into the holes without gaps
Can you imagine the possibilities if this upcoming (etch and powder) knife works? We could custom design a fairly intricate Damascus design on a knife- like a knife tattoo!
I feel like if you did a pattern with the powder inlay with a knife, i think etching the "Keep the Forge lit" pattern from the wallet into the steel and then seeing how it turns out after being forged. I would be curious to see how much it would distort the parttern and if it might be viable as a limited run of a patterned knives. Just because it might be a bit distorted, doesnt mean i wouldnt make for an interesting and unique design born from the original.
Wow. Would that positive-negative work with the titanium forge-welding technique (the one with the patent that expired last year)? Stack cleaned p-n titanium plate layers in a cannister, feed argon through the canister while heating and forge welding (at the low end of the temperatures the patent recommends, I think), to prevent oxidation, and cross your fingers.
Would love to see the negative/positive work with powder. This kind of project seems right up the alley of these other creators: @AlecSteele @shurap @KyleRoyerKnives Again, keep up the good work! Also, extremely well done on those axes; they look gorgeous! God Bless you and yours!
A zero oxygen atmosphere would be best for the etched pattern. I can't help but wonder if etching the pattern, then powdered steel in a canister would work.
I'm a newcomer to your channel and enjoy your creative thought processes. You've probably already thought about this but with the piece you did with the powder, would it work if you made the laser-etched stock the same size but made the canister a bit thicker so you could fit more powder in it. My thinking is that this could allow the powder to be compressed more densely into the voids, making it more likely to fully forge weld the stock and the powder together and avoid the cold shuts. (FYI: full disclosure here> I know only what I've watched on TH-cam about forging for the past 11 years, so I really 'know' about how things work but have thought about getting into it after I retire in another couple of years.)
Its too bad that didn't work. I could see a process where you mill both sides equally and you'd have a pattern on one side and the negative on the other.
How clean is the surface left after lasering, does it leave any residue? Wonder if a quick once over in blast cabinet would improve the cold shut problem. I may also be talking complete bollocks.
I believe you forgot to account for the draft angle created by your laser source emanating from a single point. Typically, that draft angle due to the beam emanating from a central location as it expands down to the engraving surface is pretty high the larger you're engraving. The way around this is to use a gantry-type machine with a fiber laser source. So far, these are expensive so you should have your parts produced by someone else. Good luck: I can't wait to see what you make with the powder-filled parts.
Tim, I've never used a laser etcher, so I might be slightly talking out of my ass here, but... if these parts are different grades or alloys of steel, they're probably prone to slightly different rates/degrees of thermal expansion. that means that, while they both shrink back down to the same size they were to begin with after the fact, if blasting them with a high powered laser for 8 hours changes their temperature at all (which I kinda have to assume it does), one of them is bound to expand a little more during the engraving process. It's probably not enough to see with the naked eye, but as a result of this, the part that expanded more is going to have a slightly shrunken and distorted engraving when compared to the other, and with this many features, that's absolutely going to throw off the mating alignment. the way I see it, you could fix this the smart and super precise way, or... the easy and probably-not-so-good way. The former would be to look up the properties of each metal you're working with, measure how warm they're getting on the etcher, calculate the expansion percentage, and adjust at least one of your CAD files to compensate... the latter way would be to simply try mating them at the exact same temperature the laser got them up to. As a side note, a slightly shallower draft angle would probably also help account for any distortion caused by un-even expansion/contraction of the part.
My experience in blacksmithing is a whole whopping 0 lol but I'm wondering if you added some flux inside the star pattern before you press them together would that have filled in those cold shuts? Still amazing work
What would have happened if you sandblasted the two pieces before forging them together? There was alot of discoloration/ black stuff from the laser etching and it might affect the forge welding I suppose?
I have no experience forge welding (I'm a professor from the school of TH-cam though) but were the potential welding issues a result of air being trapped in portions of the pattern? Would it be best not have a super tight initial fit (clearance as opposed to interference) then rely on even distortion when welding to push everything together. I would expect the variance in the 2 designs would be +/- the accuracy of the laser that your using. Really interesting seeing you try these things.
In both methods, won't the pattern come through only on one side of the steel? Would it be feasible to etch all the way through with the laser, and then fill the pattern with the powder steel? That might take several more hours on the laser, but then the pattern would show on both sides of the steel.
My gut tells me that if you made two blanks and sandwiched the powder between them youll get cleaner welds. I dont know why, cause ive never tried it. Though i have done copper inlays by grinding out sections and mmpouring molten copper in.... could you do that with steel?
IMO the new logo is fine for the box but is too clean for the axe. It just seems too modern or the texture of your forged axe. Maybe if the axe was polished smooth, but even then I would prefer a more artisan mark vs a laser engraved logo. Just my preference.
So what if instead of using the laser to make those indents you instead make a die that presses the designed into the metal and then put that newly pressed piece into a canister and make canister Damascus out of it so it saves you some time
Why didn't you just laser the pattern on one and then hot forge it into the other? Like you would do with a patterning fuller for making bark texture ir such. Then you would have a perfect match and much less likely to have those cold shuts
haha! you know! I'm waiting till maybe some day when I have a proper heat treat oven to be able to "correctly" soak it. 😉 I wan't to give it an honest go.
@@TimothyDyckanhydrous borax is as simple as heating up the borax you use from the box for a short period of time. This removes all the water from the borax. So, when you add it to the steel, it just melts right onto it instead of becoming these flakes that curl and lift up. But, if out of the box borax works fine for you, that’s fine. You’ve done much more forge welding than I have.
This is basically what damasteel does, but with powder. I really think you are on to something. You might go with a simpler pattern to start with until you refine your technique.
![What's in the box?! 1890s Safe [Restoration]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/kugqGatwLDY/mqdefault.jpg)
I’ve always seen laser etching as a cheap alternative to stamping or rolling, but that logo is super nice looking on them axes. Maybe make it a little deeper for longevity? So in 50-100 years when someone finds one of those in a relatives shed, with a coat of rust it can be restored and the logo still be visible. Or maybe use your laser engraver to make a stamp like that and use the press to stamp the axes when finishing forging? Just ideas man, good work!
My thoughts exactly. I'm still dialling in and learning this laser thing! Thanks man!
I agree, however, if you look at old hand saws, those have a very minor etch and still can be seen today more of the time.
I dont possibly get how laser engraving is the cheaper option 😂.
i would do the positive/negative strategy, but put steel powder in the middle to take up the extra space. I think the laser doesn't cut straight down (it leaves a bit of a slope), so there will always be some imperfections in the matchup.
His laser is not automatically adjusting the focus point as it removes material, It results in the beam diverging making the process take longer and be less precise, The better way of doing it on this machine would be to have stop points every 2 mm of depth and adjust the distance of the lens to compensate for the beam divergence. Laser etching can be incredibly accurate, just need to take account of the beam divergence
Could even make the gaps bigger on purpose, and then basically have three patterns from the two materials and the powder.
It should also make less chance of cold shuts.
This is why I enjoy your videos, creativity and curiosity
Fascinating stuff, however, I am genuinely concerned for your eye safety. Lasers can reflect, bounce, with no control over direction. Please consider adding a shield! I want to continue to see (pun intended) more of your content! :)
I think that the laser creates oxidation on the burnt surface... I would try a vinegar etch on the parts before welding and instead of borax as a flux I would soak it in diesel... I think you could make some incredible patterns that way... Also if instead of etching you make cutouts to fill with powder, then you won't have to worry about the pattern going away from grinding
Yes this.
That’s also something I was wondering, since the laser is burning the metal away. I also thought of maybe a heavy bead or sand blasting but I bet etching would work better
Hey dude, you can just use the metal power for negative part. This will help you with the gaps. And use the acid for positive part after laser. Regards from Ukraine.
I think you should try again the positive/negative technique but with a much larger clearance (like .25 mm/0.01 inches) AND filling the gap in between using a very thin layer of powder. Nice experiment anyway !
I think you need to try to find a more organic pattern - one that doesn't rely quite so heavily on perfectly straight lines. ANY work you do to the steel after is just going to mess up your original pattern. So if you can find something that's more organic, it'll be ok when it warps.
This method would be awesome to use copper in-between the steel for mokume gane billet. Because the weakness of mokume gane is that it's difficult to make a mosaic pattern, but with lasers you can.
Tim you may want to laser etch completely through two pieces of say 15N20 1/16" thick material, then sandwich that with a piece of CRV80 then sandwich the whole thing with some stainless sheet in essence creating a canister style. of course before adding the stainless you will need to fill the voids with some 1085 powder or whatever contrasting steel powder. then forge that as you would a canister, this was the pattern will show consistent through both sides? Just a suggestion.
It feels like the powder is much better for the small and intricate patters, since its easier for it to melt and fill the spaces. I'd imagine the positive & negative technique would be great for larger patters, where youre able to properly design in some draft angles to let it mesh together better. You may want to try it again and add in some powdered 1095 to see if it helps to fill in those cracks and coldshuts?
If you want to keep experimenting with this type of pattern welding steel you really should get some designs cut out using wire EDM. It will be the most precise method as well as giving you the cleanest surfaces to try welding to. I know you can't afford to buy the machine to do it but there are plenty of companies that will do it for you as long as you send them the 3D model of what you want them to make and of course pay them. For what you are doing, it shouldn't cost very much to get everything made.
Its a super interesting concept makes me wonder if you were to take a Damascus billet and use the laser to burn in the design a couple layers deep sort of like making a rain drop or ladder pattern and drawing out the billet into a bar. I know the design would distort but that could make for some pretty wild designs.
Like duel layer Damascus - two contrasting designed inlayed. I love it
I think you should integrate both process' into one. Do the negative and positive engravings but add powder to it as well to fill in the gaps. Probably even make lower tolerances between the two so you have room for plenty of powder. So combine the 2 process'.
Make a kukri with the successful pattern. The triangles with the swoop would make a nice contrast
For the positive negative, perhaps a mid heat to melt some flux with iron powerder betwen the billets, then melt them together, would have a better chance of a solid, no void weld. Good luck, this is a kicka$$ path!
Popped in from a youtube recommendation. Really glad i did. Great content. And with so many youtube smiths all using gas forges, it's great to see someone use a coke forge.
Good job, Tim. I wasn't always a fan of your forge, but you've been picking it up lately with unique ways of using modern tools. Thank you for providing interesting content to me.
How gross. "I wasn't always a fan of your forge but..." what terrible childhood did you have that you think that is a compliment. Or that anyone cares if.you were "fan" previously. Get a life.
Timothy,
Well you win some and you lose some. But the main thing is you learn something from experimenting. Thank you for taking the time to film, edit and post this video.
Try cleaning after the laser, before sandwiching. Or perhaps tolerate out the pieces by 0.1mm or such to allow the pieces to fit together without allowing tons of air to be trapped
I'd would venture to guess pressing a small amount of metal powder between the positive and negative would do the trick, maybe even using a 3rd type of steel to vary the contrasts even more. Another idea would be adjusting to give just a little more tolerance between the two parts for a positive/negative fitup.
Hey bud if you try this again get the bottom half hot so it will expand and put the top in the freezer so it will shrink a bit before trying to put them together like when you re sleeve a cylinder on a motor and see if that helps them pop together! Then tig three of the sides and try to get some powder steel in between them to fill the voids.
Take a damascus steel blank engrave a pattern and press hot like raindrop but better
What would look pretty cool is if you laser etched the pattern then melted a thin copper plate on top and finally forge weld 15n20 on top giving you the dark pattern from the carbon steel outlined by the copper and nickel
It seems like the 2 part piece wants to have the negative be through holes rather than etched to depth. That way there is no way for entrapment at the bottom of the holes, and if the positive plate is just a bit thicker/proud on the other end of the through holes then it would upset more readily to make total pattern contact. Probably a lot faster to cut through holes rather than deep etch too!
It seems like a great way to make stamping dies to press the pattern into layered steel and then grind to flat, like latter or raindrop.
Awesome! Could you maybe laser cut thin sheets stack them then fill with metal powder?
I really don't see that laser working out on this pos/neg technique, the tolerances are pushing it. Cool technique and design!
The powder really compressed and cleaned up after forging! you'll want to account for that shrinkage in designs. awesome stuff cheers.
Positive and negative made by wire EDM would be interesting to try
The coolest idea here is using dissimilar properties in alloys to create much more precise internal structures. These structures could utilize the dissimilar properties more precisely. You’d need a Materials Scientist to tell you exactly the equations and specs for that. But it’s probably some of the things that make up parts and designs in things like Classified Military stuff.
On a completely unrelated note. You ever think to try three tone Patterned Welded Steel?
That could be a pretty amazing thing. I can see knives or axes with intricate dragons or Wolves or whatever other design actually pattern welded into the metal.
As far as the first Billet that you used to metal powder on looking grainy previously and then looking better after this experiment, I would guess that's just down to more forging. Extra heat and pounding compressed the grains into a more uniform substance.
ok so crazy idea, can you etch the pattern into something like acrylic, and make a mold for 1080 power and add in a binder (something thin that would burn off Paraffin? bees wax? sugar water? Maple syrup??) which would get you your positive shape. then in a canister add in the 15n20 power which would fill in the negative. you'd get the same(ish) effect, but the laser should be able to etch the acrylic way faster and you could make way bigger blanks, also the mold could be reused.
Thank you for a brilliant and very interesting video
I would agree with your results there Timothy, that the powder filled pattern is definitely the best option to go forward with, but the cracks in the steel where you forged it into shape concern me. I think that the nature of the Lazer etching of the cold steel might be a problem. I saw you had the blank up to temperature but yet there are still cracks in the steel where the steel pattern meets and distorts due to forging. perhaps it might require a hotter temperature before forging to shape or perhaps making a blank and simply cutting the knife shape out of the blank would be the best way to use the powder filled laser etched blank. it certainly might be a problem for those who would want a hand hammer forged blade but if those cracks still keep occurring, I can't see much of an alternative way to incorporate the laser etching into a blade, other than simply using the laser for logo etching into the steel. which looks totally Dope, BTW.
i would like to see more of this two halves joined. i feel it just needs a touch of tweeking to get the fit to be flush
you might try etching the pieces in a nitro or argon blanket, get some cleaner pieces out that should weld better. Think of it as if your CNC'ing, the gas being the "flushing fluid" keeping the oxygen out while also actually flushing out any vaporized metals, just putting a tig blasting into the surface at an angle should work.
I think positive/negative would work, but you just need a different pattern: the stars are just too "sharp" at the ends and even with a lot of forging don't have enough material to squish out and fill the gaps unless you have a 100% perfect positive/negative fit up (which you did not, even after pressing).. Secondly, I think you have to not be afraid of a little distortion and really squish the parts together: I don't recall if you have a hydraulic press, but it may be what's required for the pressure vs. the fly press..
The moment i saw how cold the damascus was getting whith you still hammering away i knew there would be cracks everywhere..and it looks like i was right once it was shown at the end.
hey tim!
this new project is very cool!! 😎 cant wait to see more of it. It does seem like the gaps are caused by a side effect of the lasering process, the side walls are probably tapered from the gradually changing depth/focal point of the beam. as depth increases beam accuracy decreases making the cut softer/less crisp. seems like the negative side needs extra depth clearance so that the positive can properly wedge its self in place. also wire EDM cutting would be able to produce the perfect pre conditions for this forge welding process, almost guaranteeing that it would weld without any gaps (might be out of budget though😅).
Cool.. Im just thinking... If u have a solid plate and drill holes in it to forge press in metal powder in the cavity , you need more powder than you can fill in one press. You have to figure out a technique to overfill any cavity or else you'll always have an issue with a risk for cracks in-between powder and steel when yo decide to hammer it out to a new form. to Sustain a forge that is flexible ro be able to later be altered and driven int o a new shape or form, overfill is needed.. Loved your ideas, gave me some perspective and help in my dreams.
Maybe the etched surfaces had scale on them from the laser preventing a good weld?
There's definitely potential here. I know that when doing inlaid patterns in wood (on a cnc) you can use tapered shapes to make assembly easier and I think gluing better. Tapering for you might help with the forge welding because you'll be pushing the metals into each other rather than relying on mushrooming to weld them. You'd have to be more careful with grinding because the pattern will now vary because of the taper, but that seems like a small price if it actually welds properly.
Very interesting idea. At this point, I don't know how/if I can really control the tapering. There is some naturally there from the "kerf" but its pretty small. Keep the ideas coming!
@@TimothyDyckso what I would do is make a square of know what size, say 1cm x 1cm, run it however deep you want and then measure the angle of that wall. But I think it would really just depend on where you do your design since the beam is essentially coming down in a cone as the mirror moves. Sooo if you can always do it at the same point then you could kind of figure out how you need to skew your design to get a true negative. In CNC a lot of people do a flat bottom and angled walls so there is more contact for the glue, but I think in this case that would just give you more areas that wouldn't weld. I think you need to look into topographic greyscale 3D images that way you can kind of control the 3D aspect of the engrave.
keep up the good work man, love it!
looking at this, I see a possibility of planning a pattern that would plan ahead for distortions while forging. so the pattern planned for the tip would be different from the rest.
Another option would be to use the laser to make die's that would press regular damascus the way you would do a ladder pattern with a die.
i would imagine soaking the pieces in oil before combining the positive and negative would help with adhesion
Why not put a little metal power for the positive/negative forging process, maybe make the gaps a fraction wider between the patterns so the powder goes in between ? Maybe it would help with the cold shuts?
Do a mirrored cut sandwich together add powder then forge it.
I think there is something to be said about the star?!?! pattern one that didn't turn out to "well". I think that it looks super cool but you should try do a pattern with less intersections and maybe not such fine detail. I think that before it gets welded those tips of the inside of the star are so small that they are burning off or breaking off or something like that. so maybe try it with a stripped pattern. yes that probably wont look super cool but I think it has a better chance of success to learn from for future stuff.
Not sure how either process will be viable.. sometimes the old way is the best way
LOVE THE NEW LOGO THOUGH…..
you can use a hybrid powder but with a binder so you can squish it in. maybe something like one of those liquid metal thermal pastes or some kind of solder paste with added iron or something similar, molecular steel or something to bridge the gaps. ie make both blocks with the patterns coat them in the metal paste squish them together see how it works out. maybe even some metal that's got high solubility inside steel so it amalgamates like a glue should also highlight it a bit. Colloidal silver would be ideal, you can also try running your laser over the metal in an oxygen atmosphere to help with machining away the pattern more quickly and consistently if you can treat your metal beforehand to get a decent tempering pattern you'll be able to get a better reaction with oxygen so make several bars with several different tempers then compare how the laser erodes them and one of the tempers will erode better than the others, you want your metals' crystallization to be as dense as possible with as many crystals as possible minimizing for size so whichever temper level gets you this will give you the best surface finish to your ablation. so maximising for smooth surface finish by pre-preparing your blocks before you erode them will give you a better result than trying to solve the issue after the fact with a hack even if the colloidal silver will probably give you a nicer finish it's better to have both and then use gold or silver as your glue. so yeah start preparing a set of billets for every temper you can then narrow this down and repeat until you can get to an optimal temper for the best surface finish, you're burning metal crystals so the smaller they are the smoother your finish is going to be and you also need to have enough oxygen to burn away the metal at a consistent rate and the better ability you have to burn it off and blow it away the more likely it is to be consistent, so either blast it with a high pressure stream of air while you're ablating it or run some oxygen over it to burn it off faster, you've probably got a better shot just blasting it with a high pressure air stream than oxygen not to mention to fire hazard. you want a maximum net mass flow away from the parent metal so that you're getting rid of as much metal from the location as possible and not having a plasma cloud sticking around eroding things willy-nilly. There's probably a goldilocks zone for this so finding it will be a matter of messing with your pressure. But yeah just make an assay out of it by doing everything in parallel and you'll find a balance and then if you give it the amalgamation option with gold leaf or colloidal silver or something similar it'll probably not have any gaps left in it at the end.
to make the positive and negative fit together properly you should probably give both sides a significant taper
maybe laser completely through, set up the same canister rig, but with the flat open, instead of the top, fill with powder and smoosh. hopefully all the extra power gets pressed into the holes without gaps
Can you imagine the possibilities if this upcoming (etch and powder) knife works? We could custom design a fairly intricate Damascus design on a knife- like a knife tattoo!
I feel like if you did a pattern with the powder inlay with a knife, i think etching the "Keep the Forge lit" pattern from the wallet into the steel and then seeing how it turns out after being forged. I would be curious to see how much it would distort the parttern and if it might be viable as a limited run of a patterned knives.
Just because it might be a bit distorted, doesnt mean i wouldnt make for an interesting and unique design born from the original.
The laser doesn't engrave straight down. There will be a slight angle.
Also the engraved area will have burnt metal in it and will need cleaned
Wow. Would that positive-negative work with the titanium forge-welding technique (the one with the patent that expired last year)? Stack cleaned p-n titanium plate layers in a cannister, feed argon through the canister while heating and forge welding (at the low end of the temperatures the patent recommends, I think), to prevent oxidation, and cross your fingers.
Would love to see the negative/positive work with powder. This kind of project seems right up the alley of these other creators:
@AlecSteele
@shurap
@KyleRoyerKnives
Again, keep up the good work! Also, extremely well done on those axes; they look gorgeous! God Bless you and yours!
A zero oxygen atmosphere would be best for the etched pattern. I can't help but wonder if etching the pattern, then powdered steel in a canister would work.
Great job. Thank you 😊
I like the new logo. Old style.
Maybe try sand blasting before welding to clean the welding surfaces
Is cnc not accurate enough? Cnc would definitely be faster (and cheaper if it’s outsourced by a cnc shop).
I'm a newcomer to your channel and enjoy your creative thought processes. You've probably already thought about this but with the piece you did with the powder, would it work if you made the laser-etched stock the same size but made the canister a bit thicker so you could fit more powder in it. My thinking is that this could allow the powder to be compressed more densely into the voids, making it more likely to fully forge weld the stock and the powder together and avoid the cold shuts. (FYI: full disclosure here> I know only what I've watched on TH-cam about forging for the past 11 years, so I really 'know' about how things work but have thought about getting into it after I retire in another couple of years.)
Its too bad that didn't work. I could see a process where you mill both sides equally and you'd have a pattern on one side and the negative on the other.
How clean is the surface left after lasering, does it leave any residue? Wonder if a quick once over in blast cabinet would improve the cold shut problem. I may also be talking complete bollocks.
bollocks that do make sense - so balls great!
I believe you forgot to account for the draft angle created by your laser source emanating from a single point. Typically, that draft angle due to the beam emanating from a central location as it expands down to the engraving surface is pretty high the larger you're engraving. The way around this is to use a gantry-type machine with a fiber laser source. So far, these are expensive so you should have your parts produced by someone else. Good luck: I can't wait to see what you make with the powder-filled parts.
Tim, I've never used a laser etcher, so I might be slightly talking out of my ass here, but... if these parts are different grades or alloys of steel, they're probably prone to slightly different rates/degrees of thermal expansion. that means that, while they both shrink back down to the same size they were to begin with after the fact, if blasting them with a high powered laser for 8 hours changes their temperature at all (which I kinda have to assume it does), one of them is bound to expand a little more during the engraving process. It's probably not enough to see with the naked eye, but as a result of this, the part that expanded more is going to have a slightly shrunken and distorted engraving when compared to the other, and with this many features, that's absolutely going to throw off the mating alignment. the way I see it, you could fix this the smart and super precise way, or... the easy and probably-not-so-good way. The former would be to look up the properties of each metal you're working with, measure how warm they're getting on the etcher, calculate the expansion percentage, and adjust at least one of your CAD files to compensate... the latter way would be to simply try mating them at the exact same temperature the laser got them up to. As a side note, a slightly shallower draft angle would probably also help account for any distortion caused by un-even expansion/contraction of the part.
Would probably be amazing with Edm parts
I tried welding some waterjetted inverses, but the kerf was too thick. EDM would be fun.
My experience in blacksmithing is a whole whopping 0 lol but I'm wondering if you added some flux inside the star pattern before you press them together would that have filled in those cold shuts? Still amazing work
I feel like maybe air bubbles are getting trapped in there, preventing the metal from joining together everywhere
Wired EDM would be the way to go to match two patterns together.
What would have happened if you sandblasted the two pieces before forging them together? There was alot of discoloration/ black stuff from the laser etching and it might affect the forge welding I suppose?
You know what would be the icing on the cake? Put two arrows in an ''X'' shape through your logo. Believe me, it'll be a winner.10:30
I have no experience forge welding (I'm a professor from the school of TH-cam though) but were the potential welding issues a result of air being trapped in portions of the pattern? Would it be best not have a super tight initial fit (clearance as opposed to interference) then rely on even distortion when welding to push everything together. I would expect the variance in the 2 designs would be +/- the accuracy of the laser that your using. Really interesting seeing you try these things.
OMG my comment was one of the "interesting ones" in the begging. NICE!
Sooooo glad you decided not to fake it 👍👍👍👍👍
New logo looks great dude
Super awesome stuff
In both methods, won't the pattern come through only on one side of the steel? Would it be feasible to etch all the way through with the laser, and then fill the pattern with the powder steel? That might take several more hours on the laser, but then the pattern would show on both sides of the steel.
My gut tells me that if you made two blanks and sandwiched the powder between them youll get cleaner welds. I dont know why, cause ive never tried it. Though i have done copper inlays by grinding out sections and mmpouring molten copper in.... could you do that with steel?
If heated the one female piece up, I feel they would have pressed better together. Does that laser leave a bunch of crud behind though?
Maybe acid etch after the laser?
Paisley might work well
IMO the new logo is fine for the box but is too clean for the axe. It just seems too modern or the texture of your forged axe. Maybe if the axe was polished smooth, but even then I would prefer a more artisan mark vs a laser engraved logo. Just my preference.
is there going to be any concern with the cracks around the pockets of the powder after you hammered the second version?
jawohl, denke kommt gut in einem San-Mai Damast als Aussenlage, in der Mitte als Schneidlage
einen feinen 1.2562 Stahl.👌💪
So what if instead of using the laser to make those indents you instead make a die that presses the designed into the metal and then put that newly pressed piece into a canister and make canister Damascus out of it so it saves you some time
How much would it cost to buy a small square of the finished item when you get it right
Stamp form key chain 🤔🤙
Why didn't you just laser the pattern on one and then hot forge it into the other? Like you would do with a patterning fuller for making bark texture ir such. Then you would have a perfect match and much less likely to have those cold shuts
yey timmy, thanks!
Why don't more people seem to forge using stainless as opposed to carbon steels? What's the big downside to using it?
If ya wernt to far away I’d come film for ya I’m a retired vet wanting to learn lol
It was looking good… maybe it Wells better if the pattern is a bit bigger😇
Hey Tim, any idea when the content of that cardboard tube @1:49 is going to feel the heat of your forge? Sorry to nag about it 😅
haha! you know! I'm waiting till maybe some day when I have a proper heat treat oven to be able to "correctly" soak it. 😉 I wan't to give it an honest go.
What kind of laser etcher are you using? Thinking about getting one for my shop
Omtech Mopa Fiber laser. 80watt. If you do want to help out the channel, there is a affiliate link under this video to Omtechs machines. 🙏
Know anyone with a wire EDM? Bet you could stack some sweet billets of sweet patterns with some sweet steels!
Do you usually use anhydrous borax? It supposedly doesn’t lift up when applied like you see at 6:39.
I've never tried anything else then just plan Borax. Someday I'd like to try some different stuff.
@@TimothyDyckanhydrous borax is as simple as heating up the borax you use from the box for a short period of time. This removes all the water from the borax. So, when you add it to the steel, it just melts right onto it instead of becoming these flakes that curl and lift up. But, if out of the box borax works fine for you, that’s fine. You’ve done much more forge welding than I have.
This is basically what damasteel does, but with powder. I really think you are on to something. You might go with a simpler pattern to start with until you refine your technique.