Why Did Gandalf Fear Sauron If They’re Both Maiar?
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 7 พ.ค. 2022
- It might seem strange that two beings of the same created "order" would have extremely different power levels, but there are at least four reasons why one Maia (Sauron) might be more powerful than another (say, Gandalf).
For more on the "Morgoth's Ring" concept, check out The Red Book's great video on the subject: • Morgoth's Ring | The E...
He also has his own video on essentially this topic, though with a broader focus: • The Ainur | Their Diff...
Other Links:
Rumble at rumble.com/c/c-355195
Odysee: odysee.com/@TolkienLore:f
Twitter: / jrrtlore
Patreon: www.patreon.com/tolkiengeek
![แฟนแนวใด๋ - ยูริ โตเกียวมิวสิค [OFFICIAL MUSIC VIDEO ]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/4_XVMuhhbsU/mqdefault.jpg)
Sauron was a Maia of the forge. Gandalf is a Maia of compassion. Sauron's power is inherently mighty and impressive, and aimed at control and domination. Gandalf's power is subtle and quiet, aimed at comforting others and reinforcing their own positive qualities. Sauron makes volcanos explode, collapses mountains, and spreads massive storm clouds over the sky. Gandalf enables the good and virtuous to be brave and resist their negative impulses. Sauron beats people down. Gandalf props them up.
Sauron does DPS, Gandalf does support buffs.
Great comparison. However, I would argue, Gandalf helps people prop themselves up.
To me, it has always felt like Gandalf had passed some test when he fell to the Balrog, showing he could be trusted with more of his natural power, without taking over in some form, for his own sake or "for the good of others". I imagine the nerves of the Valour as they decided they needed to send more, super powerful, beings into a world they did not want to directly interfere with, to combat one of there own already doing just that, justifiably so, as Saruman proved.
Gandalf didn't fall to the Balrog. He defeated it and was exhausted. He was drifting back to Valinor but was told his work wasn't done.
The complication is that Gandalf was less than certain of his ability to defeat the Witch King long after the fight with the Balrog. And the Witch King would seem a far less powerful opponent.
From my understanding it wasn't the Valar that sent Gandalf back but Eru Ilúvatar himself that sent him back although I could be wrong about that.
@@Marsmuncher Tolkien said specifically that the Valar did not send him back, but refused to definitively say who did send him back.
@@Jim-Tuner If it wasn't the Valar then it would stand to reason that Eru Ilúvatar did given he was the only other being within that universe that had the power and authority to revive a Maiar and allow the incarnate form of a Maiar greater access to the own power.
Great video. Two things to mention. Firstly another reason why Sauron is more powerful is that he doesn’t have to play by the rules. Saruman decided to chuck the rule book out the window and defeat Sauron by building his own armies and stealing the One Ring. For instance Gandalf, likely, could have destroyed the Witch-King but he knew that was not his fate.
Secondly, Gandalf was not sent back by the Valar. He would have said that he passed into the West, from whence he came, and was returned to fill his mission. Passing into the West and the existence of the Valar was no secret. In fact he has no problem at all with talking about the West. But, in this case he is evasive. He talks of passing out of time completely and that’s not Valinor. Time still passes in the Undying Land just as fast as everywhere else. He was pulled completely out of Arda to the Halls of Eru and got a power boost from Illuvatar himself. Gandalf the Grey was weaker because, as a Maiar, he was one of the lesser ones. Gandalf the White was jacked up to a power level comparable with Sauron or at least Sauron without the Ring. I think this isn’t just a reduction of the inhibitions of his incarnate form, I think this is a reflection of a boost to him as a Maiar. He recalls being Olorin, in his youth, but now he is something more. It makes sense because, although Melkor was far more powerful, Manwe was the closest to Eru in thought. Gandalf was Manwe’s choice so he was, indirectly, Illuvatar’s choice as well.
nicely put
The fact that circumstances took Gandalf off the battlefield during the Battle of Pellenor Field is curious. He's mucking about yeeting Faramir from a pyre and debating Denethor when he could have been kicking ass on the battle field is telling. Telling of what? Not sure. But the book drove me nuts with keeping Gandalf in the keep during the biggest battle of the Age.
Sauron influences men through fear, Sauruman influences through secrets and lies, Gandalf influences men through kindling hope.
Olorin truly embodies what I once heard someone say about praying; 'pray not for what your deity could do for you, but for him or her to inspire in you the ability to help yourself' or something to that effect. Olorin truly is the best of the Maiar for embodying this belief (well him and Melian are my favourites!).
Great explanation as always.
Great sentiment for LOTR, terrible apologetic for actual religion.
Nienna is actually the one who taught Olorin and Melian to be compassionate and caring for all living things, so what you say makes a lot of sense.
@Thisis Gettinboring You serve God, not yourself.
Wow, that’s a powerful quote! Thanks for sharing that, I will try to remember it.
Of the Istari, he was the only one who feared Sauron and had a healthy respect for his power. Cirdan saw that and gave him the Fire Ring.
Melkor also took on corruption as one of his themes in the song of the Ainur. This meant that he and his people possessed the power to twist illuvatar's creations. This is probably one of the only powers that would be truly terrifying to an immortal being like a Maiar. Gandalf was extremely tempted by the ring, and if he had taken it he would have been twisted like Sauron, who was to Maiar as orcs are to elves.
The answer is much easier
Me AS a child:
Oh good Wizard , oh big Bad evil Dude!
And AS an adult:
"Aha maiar big Deal, who the fuck Cares."
Melkor invented corruption, he literally added entropy and chaos to the physics of the universe. All matter is part of Melkor, this is why Morgoths ring being every atom of arda can not be destroyed without destroying all of Arda(total destruction of all Middle Earth and every living thing on it). Just picture the nuclear fission of an entire solar system, hence the need for a second singing.
Orodruin or Mount Doom was created by Morgoth (one of the many things he vested his power in) and is simply a power resource he left behind in Arda, akin to a battery. Sauron was able to tap into that resource by forging the One Ring in its fires, but only by pouring his own spirit into it could Sauron then access that power left behind my Morgoth. Gandalf was aware of this and knew well that he was no match for Sauron, especially when in possession of his ring. So tied to the one ring was Sauron, he was able to draw power from it although not being in possession of it. Which is why Mount Doom erupted upon the ring’s destruction in its fires, much like a massive energy surge would explode a battery.
Yeah now that makes sense, I always wondered how the Ring made Sauron more powerful if it only contained his own power, which is always how it was described.
@@Todyo1798 I always saw it as Sauron simply being able to more readily access his power by having it in the Ring. This is somewhat conjecture but the power of Maiar seems to require some serious "effort" to use to its greatest extent, because they're having to "draw" it from the spiritual world. By placing that power in the Ring, that power is at his fingertips, figuratively and literally. And unlike Morgoth, that power isn't dissipated, it's right there. He doesn't need to "try" anymore, he simply does.
That's my take, anyway.
Yo that makes so much sense. I never understood why Sauron vesting so much of his own power into a trinket would make him stronger besides the mind control aspect but if Morgoth has either corrupted/imbued his potent power into the land and specifically, mount Doom, the ring being a vessel for said energy with Sauron having to give up some of his to control it makes it much simpler.
Something about the power levels of Melkor/Morgoth and Sauron. They both were significantly more power at their creation than their defeat. In both cases it was their fault for similar reasons.
Melkor at the point of time that Middle Earth was first finished, could have crushed any Elf, Vala, Maia, human or any other living thing excepting Eru.
Sauron, when he first joined Melkor, could have easily crushed most elves, most Maia, humans and most other creatures.
The major reason for Melkor's depowering is that he invested much of is power in the corruption of living things, dragons, orcs, etc and the powering up certain Maia that became balrogs. He invested so much power in his creations/corruptions that by the time of the War of Rath, his power was a shadow of his previous strength and still gave the Vala and Maia a lot of trouble and restructured the entirety of Middle Earth geography. All battles where he is bested is after a major part of his power has already been invested in his corruptions. I include the burning of him that was done by the Silmarils.
Sauron seems to have been more slowly depowered as his rebellion against Eru and the Vala continued.
The Silmarillion expressly states that Sauron was fearful of his existence at the drowning of Numenor and that his ability to shapeshift was taken from him at this time, possibly by Eru. The greatest loss of power occurred when forged the One Ring and imbued much of his power into it. While creating the one ring the One Ring seems to have given him greater power in some ways, it seems to have weakened him in others. One specific weakness appears, to me, to be the loss of protection of his body during combat allowing his defeat and the cutting off of his finger.
When he lost his ring his power was further reduced, taking him longer to recover his power and command his orcs and Nazgul. He was still likely more powerful than the Istari, but not nearly as powerful prior to the One Ring's creation.
So yeah, Sauron is more powerful that most of the Maiar, could have crushed any of the Astari when Melkor lived. By the time of the War of the RIng, was still powerful, but not as powerful as Melkor lived. Likely could have still crushed any of the Istari in a direct confrontation with a single Astari.
So Gandolf gets to meet a stronger foe, with a significantly weakened Elven population, dwarves that are nearly non-existant and weak men, susceptible corruption. Yeah, I would have been scared. too.
Another indication that Gandalf the White was still incarnate is when, on the ride with the Rohirrim, Merry, and Pippin from Orthanc, when they stop that night and Pippin steals the palantir, he's able to do that because Gandalf is _asleep_. If Gandalf simply didn't need sleep any more, why would he when he had the palantir to guard and could use the quiet time to plan or change the spark plugs on his staff or whatever? At a minimum, he could relieve one of the Rohirrim watchmen of guard duty. Why sleep when you don't have to when there's a war on?
How did you know about the spark plugs?
@@jonathonfrazier6622
🖐😂 🤣👌
@@jonathonfrazier6622 Despite rumors that Gandalf may be gay, his staff was a Straight Eight model requiring hot titanium tips (say THAT three times, fast!!).
Or the part where Galdalf battles and goes "do not Morb!" And morbius goes "I shall Morb as i please!"
Yes the spark plugs!
I really like this, you break it down in a way that’s not too analytical/mechanistic but does get into the weeds of who is more powerful and why.
I do think there is another reason - Ainur are all aspects of Illuvatar and unique beings. Melkor’s aspect was pure power - the ability to not just shape, but to nearly obliterate Arda if he chose. However, he’s surprisingly weak in other ways. He doesn’t seem to have much (if any) gift of foresight. He was repeatedly tricked by Elves and is completely surprised by the War of Wrath.
One of my favorite Ainur is Melian. Most would say Melian is a ‘weak’ Maia - she leaves Valinor, falls in love with an Elf, guards a beautiful realm, and then peace’s as soon as Elu dies.
But IMO Melian was not weak, not at all. It’s just that her aspect was love, the deepest most passionate love for the Elves, love so powerful that she incarnated herself as an Elven figure and single-handedly protected Doriath for hundreds of years. Not even Sauron at his full power could pierce the Girdle. Her foresight might only be second to Mandos or Ulmo - she knows almost exactly what will happen in the First Age.
So why does she leave? Her aspect was not to love ‘Elves’ in general - she loved, with every iota of her power, one Elf in particular. She poured all of her power and love and wisdom into his kingdom. When he died, her power faded - he was her ‘Ring’, if we want to use that metaphor.
However, again, Melian is crazy powerful. She *knew* Thingol would die, but she loved him anyways - and loved him so deeply that she could no longer survive without him. She did not abandon Doriath - her power was broken.
Of course, she did not die, her spirit went back to Valinor. But her legacy lives on in her descendants as an example of choosing love over immortality - a choice that they will have to make for themselves. Her aspect was love - to bridge the gap between the Maia and the Elves, and then between Elves and humans
This is a thoughtful, subtle bit of analysis; I like it very much. Among other things, it implies that the Ainur, whether Valar or Maiar, had specialized abilities and needed to work in concert to best express and realize them. That is perfectly in keeping, of course, with Eru Ilúvatar's means of manifesting creation: music. Individual actors could wield great power (Sauron or Melian, in their individual ways) but their achievements were brittle, with singular focus on a narrow object (the One Ring and control and Elu Thingol, respectively) and when that object was lost so was their power.
I always interpreted Gandalf's return with greater power as Eru assigning him the role that Saruman abandoned. Basically, Saruman got fired and Gandalf was promoted to his position.
Uh, that's what it says in the book so either you READ it and forgot or worse....
@@donaldcarpenter5328 I don't remember that ever being explicitly stated in the text, and apparently, neither does this guy, because what I said was in direct response to him saying it's unclear what exactly the implication was of Gandalf returning as white as opposed to grey.
@@malcolm32Because white is a purer color than grey. That’s about it really. It’s for thematic reasons.
Excellent video, just want to help complement the difference in power between the Ainur. As you said and it is excellently put on The Red Book channel, the Ainur were not equal in power, even among the Valar there were the most powerful, the Aratar...
From the Tolkien Gateway website:
"Aratar or Máhani (Val. māchanumāz) were the High Ones of Arda, the greatest of the Valar: Manwë, Varda, Ulmo, Yavanna, Aulë, Mandos, Nienna and Oromë. Though Manwë was held to be the High King of Arda, the Eight were held in equal reverence, and were said to possess a majesty that surpassed even the other Valar. The Aratar were originally nine, and included Melkor. He was removed from this 'order' after his rebellion."
In the case of Sauron, Gandalf and the other Istari:
In a footnote to Letter 183, Tolkien says that Sauron was "of the same kind [i.e., the Maia] as Gandalf and Saruman, but of a far higher order."
So Sauron was not just of a "higher order" relative to Gandalf and Saruman, but of a "far higher order.", no wonder why Gandalf feared him.
Indeed there were differences in power between the Maiar as between the Valar. But it would not be the most important thing that the Istari were more powerful than Sauron, as the original idea was not to face him by force (since The Powers knew the consequences of this in ages past), but to inspire the free peoples so that they oppose him. At least Gandalf was considered the wisest of all the Maiar.
So it would be something like this, in my opinion: Melkor > Aratar > the other Valar > High Order Maiar > the other Maiar
Namarië.
That also sheds new light on how powerful Isildur and Anárion were. How could it be that two men defeated Sauron, a being who was way more powerful than Gandalf?
From across the pond - thanks so much for that - it was genuinely very interesting and answered several questions I’ve been carrying around with me for 50yrs. Brilliant stuff.
Thanks for answering my question! I really appreciate it.
It is SO NICE to come here and hear such a knowledgeable person discus ALL the things I am constantly wondering about (as I’m reading The Silmarillion for the 12th time!) Thank you for this video.
Great video. I think it is worth bringing up a few things that happened when Gandalf first met Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas in Fangorn. When Gimli mistook Gandalf for Saruman and threatened him, Gandalf leapt to the top of a large rock. This would be another indication that his body might have looked aged but could act as though it were much younger and stronger.
Later, Gandalf says to Gimli "'Dangerous!' cried Gandalf. 'And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord." I take this to mean Gandalf's abilities were restored to close to what they were as a maia.
When I read Gandalf's description of what happened after he died, he uses the phrase "and I strayed out of thought and time." I take this to mean that he did not actually return to Valinor but that Eru Ilúvatar intervened and took Gandalf to his timeless halls.
Thoughts?
That’s possible, though I always just took it to mean he was just beyond mortal experience.
@@TolkienLorePodcast In the movie at least, he says something like "I stayed this way for 1000 lifespans of the earth" 😳 that line already freaked me out to think about.
@@DirtySouthJR He says "And I strayed out of thought and time. Stars wheeled overhead, and every day was as long as a life-age of the Earth"
@@mxu_medinx9709 thank you for clearing that up. The real line sounds even heavier. Every day as long as the earth will live?! That's freaky to think about man
* its really odd in the movie if you don't know the lore. Gandalf just returns to life and hes more powerful after floating in the abyss for millions of years. Ok, cool. Magic and stuff.
I think you need a girlfriend, op
I always saw it as of course not all maiar are created equal. Always figured that to ask why Gandalf is less powerful than Sauron would be the same thing as asking why The Innkeeper Barton butterbur isn't as powerful as Aragorn. Some maiar are far more dangerous than others. Some of them have relatively innocent and inconsequential gifts, while some of them have earth-shattering abilities at their disposal. It's why radagast, being a maiar could never beat a balrog
Well radagast could find a way to beat a balrog, just not with a sword probably. I can see him calling the eagles for instance
@@davidpereira4455 exactly. In 1v1, Radagast would generally lose, I think, but he could totally summon creatures to gain the advantage.
@@JohnGeorgeBauerBuis
I think that’s an important thing to consider though, depending what a less powerful maiar like Gandalf uses to fight someone like Sauron it can work as long as they use what they have to their advantages, Gandalf had his relationships to the peoples and radagast had his beasts and Sauron had his inherited forces from melkor as well as some of his own physical prowess and cunning
@@davidpereira4455 I can see the eagles telling Radagast to get fucked if he rang them up and asked them to come fight a balrog. They won’t be much use against a Balrog unless it happened to be on top of a mountain rather than under or in one
@@iKennectz Do you think Gothmog or any other Balrog rejects its Master call cause they re summoned to fight on a harsh environment? Like balrogs won't go on water if Morgoth doesn't tell them to... Radagast has influence on animals, sure he doesn't have the evil in him but if the need arose he could summon the eagles and use them outside Moria, where Durin's Bane would chase him.
Interesting commentary! I think your third point really nailed it. We know that at the end of the first age, after Morgoth has been defeated, Sauron is ordered to return to Valinor to face justice for his role. We are told he doesn’t go back in large part because he doesn’t want to forfeit the immense power that he gained by being in the league with Morgoth. Simply put, other Maia had not been given extraordinary extra power from the Valar that they served in the way that Morgoth empowered Sauron. This is why he is so much more powerful than Gandalf.
Great content as usual, cheers.
wonderful video as ever my good scholar
I totally enjoyed this. Thank you!
What rich lore Tolkein has provided and such deep analysis provided here, thank you
I love how you explain this. Now I'm a subscriber.
VERY informative, you know a LOT about Tolkiens world. Thanks, a had many doubts about these points. 👍👍
While you were talking about Sauron being a mad scientist, it occured to me that he essentially filled the same role that Manwë was supposed too. It's interesting that in his attempt to break away from paradigm set for him, he needed to recreate it. Even if you consider that now he lords over the operation officer instead of sharing the office, he never could have done everything he accomplished without Sauron
Nice explanations of how the logic of the universe would fit together and the roles intended for these entities and purpose of disparities.
Nice analysis 👍🏻
I had to sub!
Brilliant !!!!!
Quite interesting, thanks for sharing
i notice the shadows over camelot game in the background, i see you are a man of good taste my friend. that is a really fun game.
Nicely Done
I like the honest way you explain things. With Tolkiens books we cant speak with total "scientific" like certainty in most things. Many people talk as if there were rules in stone(there are but not so many nor so clear), you dont do that, and i thank you for it.
This was so good! Thank you! Comment for the algorithm :)
Very astute observations and wonderful explanation! 😎😍🤩
Great talk
very good, brother! ty
This as ever is good stuff. However I always feel that Gandalf feared most what he himself would do. He was an inspirational leader, and like a captain who must go down with his ship, he would be always in a position which demands that he should sacrifice himself, even knowing that he had a higher purpose. Going into Moria he knew his life could be spent in the defence of the fellowship. A meeting with Sauron would be an impossible choice for him. Also he knew that no being can pass the test alone. He feared his failure, might like Frodos failure be an abandonment of duty. Thanks and keep up the good work.
Exactly. I’ve always thought it was less that Olórin thought Sauron was too powerful and more that he feared his own failure. After all, the Ainur don’t have the best track record when it comes to stopping dark lords. If he thought he’s need to lead the effort all by himself, then it’s very understandable why he’d be worried.
@@sophiejones3554 I think he was concerned about the possibility of Sauron gaining power over him in some unforeseeable manner, and what the consequences might be
Very true, otherwise he wouldn't have been gifted the ring of fire
Really cool video
Super interesting video!
"It was believed by many of the 'Faithful' that 'Gandalf' was the last appearance of Manwë himself... But I think it was not so... To the overthrow of Morgoth he sent his herald Eonwë. To the defeat of Sauron would he not then send some lesser (but mighty) spirit of the angelic people, one coeval and equal, doubtless, with Sauron in their beginnings, but not more? Olórin was his name. But of Olórin we shall never know more than he revealed in Gandalf"
from what I understand Olórin and Sauron were created equal in power but Sauron gained power later by creating ring. So in my opinion Olórin>Third age Sauron without a ring
“Equal” here means of the same category, meaning they’re both Maiar, not that they have equal power.
Very good explanation
Gandalf was a heavy hitter, as you point out: wisest of the Maiar. There are Valar who aren't on the wiser-than-Gandalf list. That's a big deal.
Very interesting, I hadn't thought about the subtle difference between Maia manifesting a form and Maia incarnating into a body before. I have also always been intrigued by Gandalf's words to the Balrog, 'I am a servant of the secret fire'. We know he has the ring of fire, Narya, but this seems to refer to something else, the secret fire that is with Eru and which Melkor longed to discover?
It's the fire at the heart of the world: "And I will send forth into the Void the Flame Imperishable, and it shall be at the heart of the World" -- Ainulindale
The fire seems to be mirrored in the first description of the Palantir: "A globe of crystal, dark, but glowing with a heart of fire."
It's a metaphor based off the analogy of the Sun in Plato's Republic. As the Sun lights up the world, so the ideal of the Good lights up the mind. "Flame of Anor" nails the Sun motif.
@@pwmiles56 wonderful... thank you
'The Sectre Fire' is a way to refer to the Ainur. With that phrase, Gandalf (or Olorin, if you prefer) is stating to the Balrog that, like him, he too, is a Maiar.
and wise-versa the Balrog is declared a servant of the flames of Udûn if I remember correctly? Which would refer to Melkor/Morgoth and his "creational spirit".
@@6666Imperator Actually, I think the mention of Udûn is a reference to Melkor's first headquarters in Middle Earth
One thing is that Morgoth (through his corruption of the land) and Sauron (less directly through the ring) bound themselves to Middle-Earth. Even if the ring was washed to sea, Gandalf thought it was not safe there. That it would find its way back to Sauron. So, through the ring, Sauron binds himself closer to Middle Earth... remember that Morgoth's punishment was to be cast away from Middle Earth (and into the void).
My understanding is the Wizards had limits on their power imposed on them by the Valar. The wizards weren’t supposed to fight and win battles but to simply provide advice and emotional support. On the other hand, the evil Maiar didn’t have those limits and therefore could wield as much power as they wanted.
That is true but you miss an important detail , Gandalf feared Sauron even before he got sent to Middle-Earth , that proves that Sauron was indeed much more powerful
While true, even in his Maiar form, Gandalf (or rather, Olorin) feared Sauron's power and thus did not want to go to Middle-Earth. Later, this ended up being the reason why Manwë insisted he should go. I believe among the NAMED maia, Sauron was third in power, surpassed by Ilmarë and Eönwë.
I always had the feeling that Sauron wasn't just more powerful than Gandalf, but also, and more importantly, supremely competent at his job.
Morgoth was kind of a caricatural villain, driven by pure hatred, which made him reckless and largely ineffective. In the Silmarillion, Morgoth is very reactive, always jumping from one evil plot to the next, almost like a cartoon villain who has a different plot to take over the world in each episode.
By contrast, Sauron had an actual plan for Arda. He was patient, driven by a higher purpose, that being to bring absolute order to Arda. He was smart, calculating, focused, cunning, and extremely good at organizing things.
And I think that played a huge part in why Gandalf feared him; because in Gandalf's eyes, Sauron probably was a slow but unstoppable tyrant. Just knowing that the enemy wouldn't rest or stop at anything to conquer all, spending thousands of years trying to oppose him and slowly losing ground anyway, must have been terrifying.
Yeah, I think he Detested Morgoth , and saw him as a means to an end , but lost himself in the order that he sought..sort of a Grima/Sauron situation writ large..but with Sauron being far more cunning, patient, and intelligent.. Once Morgoth was ousted, he got to play with all the toys left in the Mansion, Morgoth left behind..
As for Gandalf, we know he was mortal, as the Witch King, broke his staff pretty easily one on one, until they were saved by the Rohirim... That Angmar must have been a bad MOFO, mind you he was very close to his power base and did possess a ring of power, which is why I'm thinking Gandalf could take em on Weathertop...but not this close to Mordor.. plus he had a Hobbit to protect at the time as well, and he was exhausted from his trip..
Gandalf surely did gain a ton of (Wizardry) power while he was gone, as he freed King Theodin from Grima/Saruman's clutches pretty quickly when he threw down for real at Edoras...I'm thinking Gandlaf may have gotten a little drop of Eluvitar's Charisma right from the creator himself, as he proved himslef an un dying servant willing to give eveything he had smoting that Balrog...a merciless enemy easily his equal. Eru knew he had larger things to face that Balrog's, and, as such, gave him what he needed to complete his task..
Do you think the Rohirim arriving just in time was a coincidence? The oathbreakers getting their chance to be freed just now when they were needed most? Eru tips the scales in our hero's quest in sublte but powerful ways, the chess pieces having been placed long ago. Tom Bombadil saving Frodo, Radaghast probably went off to heal lands corrupted by Sauron, this may have had implications we will never know..
@@planegaper Witch King never broke Gandalfs staff. Jackson movies are not canon.
In real lore, witch king is nothing compared to gandalf the white. Witch king is a muppet while gandalf is angelic being blessed by god, universe creator himself.
@@Theydas Witch King is an extension of Sauron himself and also wears a Ring of Power. The stronger Sauron is right now and the nearer he is to Mordor the Witch Kings power grows. If Sauron recovered the One Ring the Witch King would have demolished Saruman, Gandalf and Radagast all together lol
@@vlad_47 Seems to be a lot for the spirit of a mortal man to take on three Maiar and demolish them.
I see what you mean by the incarnation process having an influence on the power I Maia could exhibit. It makes sense that Gandalf the Gray would be weaker than Sauron since Eru created bodies for Istari that were not so powerful. This was probably to keep them from becoming corrupt and using their powers to hurt the very people's that Eru sent them to Middle Earth to help.
very good video. In regards to Gandalfs promotion: For me it was more like that his "new job" as "The White" wizard basically required the change that we see. If it was given to him by the Einur in Valinor or if an anime style "limiter" was removed I can't say but for me the names of the wizards always were connected to their rank/job. As Saruman moved away from being "The White" and becoming "The Colorful" the job of "The White" was open and Gandalf was deemed to be worthy of that position.
I just read LOTR and have read The Hobbit long ago
I took a look a couple Histories of Middle Earth volumes at the book shop... Anybody who has read them all is an OG in my opinion
Fantastic channel bro
Cheers!
If you enjoy delving deep into lore, and have the time for appendices research, read the Silmarillion and The Lost Tales. It's in those details that bits in the story link up. It blew my mind when I finally connected who Gandalf really was. So satisfying. Happy reading!
@@valad_nym5600 I'm already reading The Silmarillion
Thank you!
There are indications that Mithrandyr has much more power than he uses before the narrow bridge. He suggests that Gandalf “uncloaked” is not something you would want to witness for example. When he returns, his confrontation with Saruman indicates that authority is a significant aspect of his strength. He has the backing of ‘his order’ and amongst other things this allows him to call Saruman back to the window at Orthanc. We also have Saruman’s jibe about the rods of the seven wizards; and it’s fruition when Gandalf breaks Saruman’s staff (and the clear diminution of Saruman’s power thereafter).
In traditional Catholic angelology there always was a hierarchy. Milton (not a Catholic, but definitely a presence in Tolkien) puts it thus
Thrones, Dominations, Princedoms, Vertues, Powers
-- Paradise Lost V, 601
These aren't just synonyms, there is a ranking implied. It sounds odd to modern ears but... it's what it is.
In Catholic teaching there are 9 hierarchical choirs of angels, which Tolkien would have absolutely been familiar with. Seraphim, cherubim, and thrones are the highest three choirs. Then come dominations, powers, and virtues. The last three are principalities, archangels, and angels. Each choir has separate purposes, with the higher choirs associated more closely with direct contemplation of God and those basic concepts and functions which allow Creation to exist/function. Lower orders are in many ways more similar to humans, such that we would probably most easily understand the nature of an angel (though they are still quite different from humans!) Maiar would probably be most similar to angels, maybe archangels.
I think that comes from certain Jewish lore…it’s also mentioned by St Paul in one of the letters I think
Also I thought Tolkien hated Milton? Of course Milton was a miserable, bitter old puritan republican which Tolkien would not like very much
@@john.premose Well, the rebellion of Melkor seems to be at least in a conversation with the opening books of Paradise Lost. In "Author of the Century" Tom Shippey points to various other influences. E.g.
The Black Rider flung back his hood, and behold! he had a kingly crown; and yet upon no head visible was it set... [it speaks] 'Do you not know Death when you see it?'
-- The Siege of Gondor
This is Milton's "Death":
...The other shape,
If shape it might be call’d that shape had none
Distinguishable in member, joynt, or limb,
Or substance might be call’d that shadow seem’d,
For each seem’d either; black it stood as Night,
Fierce as ten Furies, terrible as Hell,
And shook a dreadful Dart; what seem’d his head
The likeness of a Kingly Crown had on.
--Paradise Lost Book 2 lines 666-674
really enjoyed this... its good to hear from someone who actually knows the lore... especially after seeing that dumpster fire that was rings of power.
To me the wizards had a cast system. Gandolf returned after the battle means he pretty much got promoted since their robe colors identify their power level. Saruman taking on a cloak of many colors was his down fall as he pursued power rather complete his mission they were sent to middle earth for. Gandolf is, best we know of the onky miare to complete the reason they where sent to begin with.
Radagast the Brown was TRUE to the END! Radagast was a surrogate of Gandalf, an Istari but a lesser one, in a supportive role just as Gandalf was to support Saruman. But, Saruman was probably duped before he was ever sent since he WANTED to go to Middle Earth. Plus, Saruman came earlier with the two Blue Wizards.....
Interesting thoughts on the idea of power level. I'm not familiar with the idea of "Morgoth's Ring", so I'll have to look up Redbook's video. However, it gave me a shocking thought that I think I should put here. If Melkor put himself into Arda, could it make sense that Tom Bombadil might the good part of Melkor that he imprisoned in Arda so that the more ambitious part of himself could become Morgoth?
That's a heck of a theory and would explain so much. I highly doubt a ring created by a Maia, even if was the most powerful Maia, would have any affect on a Vala. That would be why Tom couldn't care less about the ring and why the ring had no affect on him.
1:00 It's also very much like any other being in (or outside) the Tolkien universe. Humans as well as elves, dwarves or orcs, all have individual differences including how powerful (strong, charismatic, influential, or in fantasy settings, powerful or good with magic), how skilled in a particular skill or how tall, fast, or good looking they are. Pretty common natural variance.
I just found this channel, and I don't know enough about the maiar and I would like to know the different manifestations or incarnations of Sauron over the years
You might try this on for size: A Brief History of Sauron
th-cam.com/video/nP5GxyXWv2o/w-d-xo.html
The One Ring also had powers of domination of minds of others -- whether they were ringbearers or not. As well as slowing time and the invisibility thing as well.
Tolkien tended to favor non-traditional strengths, which were manifested in characters like Frodo and Gandalf who lacked traits commonly associated with strength. In Tolkien's universe, Gandalf's self-doubt and humility are what made him as powerful as he was. His enemies underestimated him, and his role as a compassionate and selfless "servant leader" are ultimately what won the war.
I always thought that gandalf was scared partially cause ainurs kinda forbid the 5 wizards to use their full power ( except last cases) but rather shape and unite all middle earth races to defeat evil themselves...
I really wanted to read his whole shirt
To address one or two other comments, the Valar and Maiar function in part as demiurges; instruments of creation in varying degrees. Tolkien (rather amazingly) spent a lot of words on the question "what are fairies" and this was one of the answers:
"Thus a tree-fairy (or a dryad) is, or was, a minor spirit in the process of creation who acted as 'agent' in the making effective of the divine Tree-idea or some part of it, or even of some one particular example: some tree."
--- Bodleian Tolkien Ms.6 Folios 6-8, in Flieger and Anderson (eds.) 'Tolkien on Fairy-stories'
The concept descends from Plato's dialogue Timaeus. Melkor is a demiurge gone wrong. Apparently some Gnostics claimed this had happened with the (singular) Demiurge.
damn, idk if i would bow like you did in the intro, your hair is thinner than mine!
One of the strengths of the series is that it leaves answers to questions like this vague at best rather than make it some kind of D&D stat comparison. Being Maiar might have given both Gandalf and Sauron certain innate abilities, but their power seemed to be a product of both that which they were granted but also that which they gathered to themselves during their long lives. Certainly there seemed to be a power/pecking order among the wizards, and Saruman's comments about Radagast indicated that he could have been a more powerful wizard who largely squandered his potential. Gandalf was promoted to The White upon his return, but what effect this had upon his powers/abilities seemed a little unclear. He cast Saruman out of the Council and broke his staff, but was that the result of Gandalf's increased power or of Saruman being demoted/diminished?
Power within Middle Earth also seemed to be the result of accumulated study and creation/use of various magical devices over time - Sauron was powerful, but more so with the One Ring than without it. A Maiar, like Sauron, could be defeated and have their power reduced for a time, but it could also be restored with sufficient time if they were not destroyed outright. The Balrogs were also Maiar, physically formidable, but were not seen as powerful as Sauron, who, like Morgoth, had his power enhanced by the various allies he drew to his cause.
One of the major powers of evil in Middle Earth was the power to corrupt - something which even Gandalf feared with regard to himself and the One Ring - and, by its nature, it was a power inaccessible to the forces of good. Corruption of good and the winning of allies seemed to enhance the power of evil and this seemed to apply to Sauron, while good seemed to have no power to reform evil, only to either destroy or banish it. This being the case, the powerful evil characters did expend more of their energy/interest/power into corrupting Middle Earth and gathering allies because it WAS a route for them to gather more power unto themselves within the physical setting of that world. Expanding physical power/influence within the physical setting required that power first be invested in physical creations/pursuits - those that were evil tended to create only to expand their power, while those who were good seemed to create to preserve and enhance good and beauty within Middle Earth.
While Gandalf might have feared the power of Sauron in some absolute sense - and had to respect that level of power in any case - he probably, and naturally, feared the ends to which that power would be put far more: the destruction of good within Middle Earth. Gandalf's own destruction was of minor consequence to him compared to the impending victory of evil, which is why he risked fighting/delaying the Balrog in Moria.
This video made me consider Gandalf as a sort of mega-bard...something that has never occurred to me before; thanks for that haha
I had figured Olorin to have been the chosen leader all along, being primarily a Maiar of Manwë, the most reluctant one to take the task. Dude was mostly loved, but sometimes hated by men, dwarves, elves, and was the only to recognize/appreciate halflings. He had strong will, a pure heart with discernment, all had a name for him, and was tempted freely but refused. Curunir and Miaron were both under Aluë, had intimate knowledge of each other, and succumbed to desires of creation and control like their Valar (i.e. the dwarves), but Aulë's was more innocent and meant in the song. Dude got cocky and upgraded himself to "Saruman of many colors" got yeeted with his betrayal and the rightful head of the Istari was placed after proving his true loyalty to the cause of their incarnation time and again. He wanted to come back, thus, the White he became. All within the song of Eru before it happened. My favorite fantasy novel hands down.
While it was Manwe who told him to put on his big boy pants, Olorin was a Maia of Lorien.
"Melkor is THE most powerful of all the Ainur."
Tulkas: "And I took that personally."
So quick question about incarnations; does the incarnation that they take (with the exception of Gandalf's second incarnation) when coming to middle earth make them more susceptible to the desires/emotions/thoughts of being mortal, at least while they maintain said incarnation? If so, do you think this could have exacerbated Suramon's desires that lead to his betrayal?
Quite likely, I think.
Important to note that when Gandalf got "sent back," that was the doing of the Valar - they wouldn't have been able to do that. As an incarnate being he was d.e.a.d. dead. That was handiwork of Eru himself. And he was sent back "new and improved." But this is really beside the point - *Olorin* was afraid of Sauron. That was before he was incarnated.
I also think the thing we saw Gandalf do when he went out to drive the Nazgul away from the incoming riders was more than we'd seen him do before. I also think some of the Grey -> White change was "mental" - I think he saw more clearly and had "even more" resolve than he'd had before. More certainty and surety. They filmed it well - Gandalf the White just *radiated* a kind of presence and power that he hadn't as Gandalf the Grey.
Huh, this makes me think that Gandalf is an avatar for Tolkien: influencing the world with hope, inspiration, a vision of meeting the challenge of evil and building a good world.
Well met friend.
Great video, you & Red Book do a lot of the heavy lifting on TH-cam.
I’ve always found personally that it almost goes without saying Sauron was simply a fearsome entity. He’s worked millennia with malevolent intent alongside the most powerful being next to Illuvatar, and his projects are fearsome works of war and sly subterfuge. Gandalf couldn’t have perceived his incarnate limitations when he stated his fear of Sauron, he just feared him. They were on different levels. Tolkien stated that Sauron was of “a far higher order” than Gandalf & Saruman. In the same way I personally would fear a professional fighter or soldier even though we’re both human and technically on the same level.
There’s a sort of belief that multiple people could overthrow Sauron if they had the ring, Gandalf, Galadriel, Aragorn etc. I’m not sure it’s ever stated to actually be possible, only that Sauron feared the possibility in his likely irrational paranoia, or the ring projecting onto the people who considered it.
If any Maiar were capable of overthrowing Sauron just by being part of his race, I’m not sure how it could have gotten so far. Sauron in LotR is in a severely diminished state, yet he’s won the war militarily before the story even starts without the Ring, only being stopped by its destruction.
The Ring itself isn’t particularly powerful, Numenor subjugated Sauron complete with Ring by sheer military might. He was defeated with the Ring at the Last Alliance. Were Saruman to have actually gotten the Ring, what advantage over Mordor would it have actually provided? It’s not as if the ring can sweep aside armies, nor is it expressly stated (to my knowledge) that the Ring would simply obey someone of compatible power. Maybe Gandalf feared Sauron’s Machiavellian mind and sinister plotting, something alien to him and thusly completely unpredictable and frightening. The Maiar in exile from Valinor in general I could see being frightening to the loyalists, choosing to disobey and be in open rebellion of Valar law being an incomprehensible mindset to them.
A thought that always interested me is a What if sauron hadn't lost some of his older powers (such as his transformation abilities) would he have just werewolfed his way through isildur perhaps?
I read the title and immediately thought "why do criminals fear armed police even though they're both human?"
Great post :) - can't help but check out your board games in the background tho! I have the same Lord of the Rings Board game :D
Sauron had spent however many tens of thousands of years in Middle Earth building things and interacting with it's peoples while Gandalf was only there for 2020-ish years before he went back to Aman. Sauron must have been much more powerful than is even described in detail, otherwise he would just be a Balrog. It makes me very grateful that Arien never took Melkor up on his offer to join him. Imagine her with the heat of the literal Sun being Saurons Coworker in Angband.
White Gandalf is basically "new game+" gandalf
The 'One Ring" was infused with Saurons 'Spirit' and with it he had control of the rings of power for men and dwarves, but not as much as the elven rings (since he did not actually have contact with them) but he would eventually have control because he taught the elves how to make the rings. So, since the elves put much of their own spirit into the making of the rings they would lose that power once Sauron had his ring back because they knew that Sauron would find their rings and they would be much weaker with out them.
They didn't want him to be another Sauron or Saruman 😅
So they let him be the Grand Wizard after he showed he wouldn't fall to shadow~
I'm always intrigued by the one possibility that ive not seen addressed anywhere, Galadriel and Gandalf both fear posession of the RIng for what it would do to them and that they would (from the context of what they say) become more powerfull than Sauron and end up as replacement Dark Lords. So my thoughts are what would have happened if the Balrog had go hold of the Ring....
What if Bill had got the Ring?
The pony, or Ferny? 😂
Is that one of the Deadric swords in the background?
Nope, all from PJ’s LOTR trilogy
You mentioned that dragons are fallen maiar that took dragon form, what's the source for that? From what I remember (it's been a while since I read it, admittedly) it's either implied or stated dragons were bred by Morgoth.
It’s probably somewhere in the History of Middle-earth series; there’s too much to keep up with. 😂
@@TolkienLorePodcast thanks, will look it up on my own there
Gandolf also adhered to the rules he’s was given when brought to Middle Earth” to appear as a weak ,old man and not use his magic to its full potential “ Sauron didn’t listen and craved power-using his to his full potential and utilizing the creations of dragons,orcs ,etc.
My understanding was Morgoth made Goblins via the corruption of elves, Sauromon creates the Oruki via hybridizing Golbins and men, they did not exist until the events of LotR. Orc then became the common slang term which often gets used to refer to both collectivly, Goblinoid also being a similar broad term used in the fantasy realms and which I prefer because Goblins are the original race.
Orc is an Old English word meaning “demon” which Tolkien used early to describe the whole “race.” Goblin is just an alternate term.
This explanation is pretty good actually. I'd have further notes at reincarnation thing, but I won't bother today.
Another aspect is that Gandalf is modest and not proud, so he naturally sells himself short, underestimating his own powers. In contrast to Saruman, whose arrogance and pride would naturally make him overconfident against others, or at least pretend to in front of others.
Could it be possible that the Maiar, especially those who came in corporeal form, could have somewhat forgotten who they are in true form?
So if dragons are fallen maya but they can also be killed by normal arrows are they incarnated like the wizards? Can Ainur fade like elves do or is becoming incarnated a hack to avoid fading like the rings of power?
Being incarnate for the wizards is more a limitation, almost like making them mortal in the sense they are now tied to the physical world (which is why Gandalf’s memory is imperfect). Whether it’s the same for dragons I don’t know, because we have too little data.
Sauron was a smithy type fighter who used magic and was several levels higher than the old gray wizard. Gandalf had reason for trepidation. While normally, level for level, a wizard can take a fighter, this given goes away when adding levels, the ability to forge one's own magic items of wondrous quality and magic resistance.
Except that Sauron was also a wizard. Tolkien calls him a "sorcerer of dreadful power", and on-screen, he's done things like drive a man mad with illusions to casual mind control over armies.
Durin's Bane: "Well... I found Gandalf to be sufficiently powerful in a direct way."
Which is another example of the power gradient among Maiar, since the balrogs were also Maiar.
Inn a one to one duel Gandalf might have had a chance but Souron had spent thousands of years drawing power to himself, he has a whole empire of powerful entities and vast armies at his command which makes him difficult to get to. A one to one fight with a being like Gandalf was off the table.
Gandalf the white had a fresh body that wasn't polluted with pipe weed, so he just had a lot more energy. 😆
😉 He also got his short term memory back.
Seriously though, maybe Gandalf got a new body that wasn't corrupted by 1000s of years exposure to Morgoth's essence interspersed into the fabric of Middle Earth?
It's very elegant, Sauron is a craftsman, and so it's his nature to pour his essence into things that he creates.
So, he creates a thing that resembles himself, something that is beautiful, comfortable and harmless. It gives great power but the users pour their own essence into it, and when they have poured all they have, they return it to their new master's hands and report for service, mere empty vessels of borrowed power.
Only humans were influenced fully, one and all. Elves were too knowing and cautious. Dwarfs just stashed them into jewelry boxes and never used them.
Sauron was mentored by a stronger valor..and also his vile nature allowed him to do things gandalf simply wouldn't dream of
I don't recall dragons ever being stated as maiar. Where can I read about that?
I’m not sure it’s explicit anywhere, but there’s not much else they could be. There might be something fairly clear on the History of Middle-Earth series but I don’t remember which volume.
I would suggest the fact Sauron has been in middle earth fighting battles under Morgoth and using his magic differently then what he was designed for. Gandalf immediately had a power gain after his big battle against another Miayr in the form of the Balrog. They weren't designed to fight battles but seem to gain power through them.
Totally unrelated, but you have a nice board game collection. Shadows Over Camelot is fun. Is that Lord of the Rings Risk?
Yep! Many other games you can’t see here, too. Not a permanent backdrop, it’s just my “studio” is in a transition lol
When Glorfindel received his second hröa, he also became much more powerful, described as almost as powerful as the Istari. That's one of the things that really annoys me with Peter Jacksons movies, where Glorfindel is replaced by Arwen when Frodo is rescued. It had to be Glorfindel, because it was he who was the emissary of the Valar, not Arwen. When the same thing happens to Gandalf, he also comes back much stronger. But this might not be a reward as such, but perhaps it's just that you learn something in the Halls of Mandos that the world usually never gets to see, because it's usually a one-way trip.
So that's what I call having a Field advantage. .D I mean Sauron in ME.
What's the benefit to a Maiar of incarnating a corporeal body? Does it allow them to use things like the rings that enhance their innate abilities? It seems like they'd lose more strength than they'd gain, and any assistance would just be a bit of a rebate while they're still incarnated. Or is it an intentional limitation placed on them by the Valar when they need to send a Maiar over, to ensure that they don't go power-mad like Sauron did?
Probably an intentional limitation, since they were forbidden from just matching Sauron’s power with power.