N64 folks: I'm seeing a lot of comments about games you think are 60fps, but aren't really. If you're playing them in an emulator, they are likely enhanced compared to what the real hardware is capable of. The emulator is not representative of the real console when they're used in this manner.
on N64 it was easiest to run games at 20fps because of the data path design most games going faster on the screen draw were letting the RDP run most parts independent of user input.
I believe Star Wars: Rogue Squadron has an uncapped framerate. While it never hits 60fps on original hardware, it will on an emulator. Probably why many are confused.
I really loved it at the time, and like it a lot more than N64. At least in the United States I have to give PSX the overall nod as the best of the four main systems that gen just because of the library, but Saturn is still amazing. Honestly while I prefer the typical graphics in a Saturn game I was still surprised by how much better and more powerful it looks in this video after you get done with the N64 segment. It’s kind of making me think even even more that N64 was the worst design system that generation.
One major thing I love about Game Sack is ol' boy is COMMITTED to excellence. Critiques are relevant and on point, the humor is A1, and you're never left uninformed about a game you don't necessarily know.
and theyre just comforting man lol i love falling asleep to their vids and waking up in the middle of the night with it playing lol joe has a nice voice for relaxing viewing, i love all the cheesy dad jokes LOL
@@DawnRazor-wy8uv im asian so i know how to hold my drinks and a friend who didnt drink drives everyone home. besides if i was drunk i wouldnt be able to type.
Richard Divizio(the digitized actor for Kano and Baraka) technically wasn't fired as his likeness was still used for Quan Chi on the arcade cabinet for MK4... but yeah a lot of people were "future endeavored"...
One more game on the N64 that tries it's best to maintain it's 60fps is the amazing Mischief Makers! I love this game and it uses some polygonal backgrounds at times and it scrolls and runs smootly. :)
Golden fox on the cylindrical oval track (Silence I think). Get max speed boost and hit the boosters while boosting and ull go so fast ull fly upwards off the track
@@tfofgaming3413 GX is an insane title. I really hope that it either gets remastered or a sequel, but that would depend on Nintendo doing another collab with Sega.
@@Pooby1000 ikr? it's insane the amount of Genesis collections, we had a Dreamcast Collection for the 360 but other than that nothing else, just Genesis 😅
We’re probably just now getting to the point where emulating the Saturn is possible on the very newest consoles. The PS4 and XBOne probably couldn’t handle it, they have worse CPUs than my old laptop, which can’t run Saturn at full speed.
I didn't grow up playing video games, I don't own any gaming consoles, majority of these games I've never played nor heard of, but I love watching Game Sack on Sunday morning!
Yep VDP2 was the best trick the Saturn has up its sleeve. My favorite usage of it is in Panzer Dragoon II where it uses it to create these huge landscapes & set pieces. Such as when you're in the ravine and you fly off the cliff, the scope is insane.
@@jsr734 This is true but its still a tiny fraction compared to how many games came out (~100 60fps 3D games vs. 7000+ total games). Games that come to mind are the Tekken trilogy, Both Bloody Roars, Both Tobals, Dead or Alive, Dynasty Warriors, Rival Schools, Ehrgeiz, Raystorm, Raycrisis, Einhander, Xevious 3D/G+, Klonoa, Tomba, The Granstream Saga, Pong: The Next Level, Tempest X3, Micro Machines V3, Rat Attack, iS: Internal Section, Roll Away, Intelligent Qube, Devil Dice, Forsaken, etc.
I think the Saturn had a technical - perhaps RAM-based - limitation, which forced 8-bit textures on VDP1 at high resolutions, which meant no lighting. This will be why there are mixed-resolution titles where VDP2 runs in high resolution but VDP1 runs in standard resolution, as I don't think the image would fit in VDP1's 256KB frame buffers. This could explain Virtua Fighter 2's baked-in lighting as compared to the real-time lighting in, say, Fighters Megamix.
I haven't watched GameSack in a while and I gotta say, there's just something so nostalgic about watching Joe do what he does best! I love this channel! 😁
Hey Joe! I thought it was weird that you mentioned Skeleton Warriors was “from Playmates,” which is true, as it was published by them, but there’s another reason that game is sort of noteworthy and also the only reason I remember it. It’s the first game developed by Neversoft, a game developer that went on to make the Tony Hawk’s Pro Skater series and also some Guitar Hero games before being sucked up into the Call of Duty mines that every Activision-Blizzard owned studio is fated to being designated to. Thankfully, they got to dissolve the company after working on Ghosts, probably the most panned CoD entry in recent memory.
These games bring back 90s nostalgia of a Blockbuster run and sleepovers with friends trying to stay up late with copies of EGM and Gamepro all over the floor.
The reality is that the Saturn is not less powerful than the N64. The N64 hardware could do nice effects but the console was very underpowered, this is why you either see nice looking games running at sub 10fps, or barebone games running at 60fps.
Kind of sounds like a repeat of the SNES vs Genesis, if I'm understanding right. So one's got better visual fidelity while the other has more raw power? Now that I think about it, raw power definitely makes sense for the very arcadey approach Sega took to the Saturn's hardware design (even if that did make it way more difficult to develop for unless the devs were already accustomed to Sega's super-bespoke and complex arcade systems of the day).
As an early adopter of the Sega Saturn.. when I first rented Virtua Fighter 2.. I was mindblown. not only did it have a high resolution, but it ran at 60fps. hadn't seen any polygon console game run at 60fps until then. Wish I bought that game instead of Fighting Vipers.
But Fighting Vipers is an exellent fighting game. I mean is not that Virtua Fighter 2 is bad, but i think Fighting Vipers looks a little more advanced technically on the Saturn.
I can’t believe how often Joe puts these videos out now. Long, high quality, informative videos with a ton of editing and script, plus game footage. And he still has been cranking them out every week or two. Makes Sunday mornings better.
Such a great idea for an episode! I didn't expect the N64 to have many games, but it was mind-blowing playing either F-Zero X or MK4, and seeing how smooth those ran. The Saturn had a bunch that I never realized! Imagine if Virtual Hydlide could run at that framerate?! Seriously though, awesome episode as always Joe!
For an excellent example of the advantages of 480i60 over 240p60, check out the original arcade version of Tekken 3. There's a setting in the options menu that lets you choose. The 240p mode looks like a chunky mess with the high-detail character models, especially when zoomed out.
240p60 is still much better for sprite-based 2D fighters and shooters though, also on CRTs. The flickering of 480i is not good for typical 2D assets. It's one thing I appreciate with the Dreamcast and PS2 as well, for the 2D arcade ports that still supported 240p when appropriate, although I wish more of them did.
It looks like a chunky mess because the game was never intended for 240p resolution.I am guessing 512x240 because Tekken 3 Arcade normally renders at 512x480.
Saturn devs definitely focused more on fast-paced, action-orientated arcade-style experiences (kinda what you would expect from SEGA), mainly 3D Fighters in this case, which probably benefitted the most from 60FPS. N64 on the other hand had more experiences featuring new, "big" 3D worlds where the 3D itself was the main selling point. Consumers and developers didn't care that much about frame rate - most N64 games don't even reach 30FPS consistently - it was probably also not really worth it. Like Ocarina of Time doesn't need 60 FPS, even if it would've been nice. You sort of just accepted a lower frame rate as a trade-off. Nowadays, many Saturn games look leagues better than many N64 games, because early 3D and its "big" levels really haven't aged well and because most of us actually think the 2D (or 2.5D) games weren't at all outdated.
It looks on par i would say. But that is because none of those games were really pushing the N64 really hard. With more complex games like Conker, Bajo Kazooie/Tooie, Golden Eye, Perfect Dark, etc. there is no competition.
I love the use of chapter markers in the video. There are so many times i have to scrub around and find the name of the game again. Please continue to do so!!
Hello, great episode these were great clips: @13:50 - this was good @14:37 - i love the wall kick in this these two clips kind of show of all the neat things you could do in the game and they're only 20 seconds long each, great stuff.
looking at fighting vipers with mesh textures running on the model2 i can assume that for the saturn real half transparencies were never considered from the beginning of platform specs development.
This video brought back so many memories. Sega had some great fighting games on the Saturn. I loved Fighting Vipers and Last Bronx but my favourite was always Virtua Fighter 2. That music on Akira’s stage is still amazing after all these years.
PlayStation 1 games that run at 60 fps: Fighting: Tekken 1, 2 and 3, Bloody Roar 1 and 2, Tobal 1 and 2, Dead or Alive, Street fighter EX 1 and 2 + plus, Rival Schools, Zero Divide 2, Mortal Kombat 4, Dynasty Warriors, Kensei - Sacred Fist, Critical Blow, Genei Tougi: Shadow Struggle, FatalFury Wild Ambition. Shoot em Ups and similar: Einhander, R-Type Delta, G-Darius , Thunder Force V, Ray Storm and Ray Crisis, Night Raid, Philosoma, Elemental Gearbolt, IS:Internal Section, N2O: Nitrous Oxide, Tempest X3, Sanvein. Racing: Rapid Racer, Motorhead (60fps mode), Crime Killer, Running Wild, Street Racer, Micro Machines V3, RC de GO! , Ridge Racer Turbo (RR4 bonus disc) , Gran Turismo (Hi-Fi mode Time Trial-only) , Colin McRae Rally via a cheat code. others: Klonoa: Door to Phantomile, Rascal, Forsaken, Devil Dice/Xi, I.Q.: Intelligent Qube and I.Q. Final, Roll Away (Kula World), Floating Runner, Agent Armstrong, The Granstream Saga, Pong: The Next Level, Skeleton Warriors, Contra games...
Forsaken is not 60fps on PSX, but it's close to that on PC/N64. But Shadowmaster is smooth on PSX. Playstation also has a game called 360° that was 60fps i think.
@@M1XART Wrong, Forsaken on PS1 has a much higher frame rate than on N64. On the N64 it's 30 fps (with drops) there are smaller stages, etc., it's very different from the PS1/PC version. While the PS1 goes up to 60 FPS (but with drops too), it has the same stages in the same size as the PC version.
@@DEN-ROCK i don't know what you're on, or do you just emulate N64. I do own Forsaken for PSX, N64 and PC. N64 & PC has zero drops. While PSX-version is barely 25fps on PAL.
16:40 if the ground is 'completely flat', it was almost certainly rendered w/ VDP2, meaning it's not made up of 'polygons' it's actually a background layer tilemap - like a board - being scaled & rotated & subject to perspective-correct affine transformations a lá SNES' *Mode 7*, so naturally it'll be completely flat but it's a much cheaper fill rate for faster performance & much more visually stable (won't warp/warble or pop-in & -out) than if one were to construct a large surface out of polygons w/ VDP1 or on PlayStation. Almost every one of these 60 FPS 3D Saturn games are making extensive use of this hardware feature, & it's often used to draw so-called 'infinite planes' out to the horizon which competing consoles could never. セガサターン、シロ！
Nah, VDP2 was definitely the ace up Saturn's sleeve, yes I guess N64 could draw two faces to a similar effect (PS1 definitely can't) but I mean the results of this video speak for themselves: just five 60 FPS 3D N64 games versus - probably more than - twenty-eight 60 FPS 3D Saturn games many of which render in a high-res 640×480i or even 704×480i. Neither PS1 nor N64 have anything quite like _DecAthlete_ for instance & that's a fact, which is especially embarrassing for a system w/ 3D acceleration like N64 (hope all the blurry graphical effects were worth it)!@@jhkuno88
@@powerfulaura5166 Believe it or not, i think the Ps1 can do mode 7 graphics too. Just look at the world map in the Final Fantasy Snes compilations on the Ps1 and also the Jumping Flash games are using a similar tech to achieve the floor´s textures.
So in that Mortal Kombat 4 continue screen, what saves your character from falling to their death if you continue? Does the bottom of that pit turn into a giant marshmallow or something?
17:45 As a European, the moment I played my totally legit NTSC-U Version of Tekken 3 on my totally-not-modded PS1 was when I converted to the Church of 60 FPS, and never looked back. Compared to my actually legit PAL version, it was a true revelation.
Ah, good to see the classic "three connected pieces of metal" as an awkward weapon, because nunchucks were so dangerous it was too risky to even show them to you.
Nintendo kinda demanded you to use several of the N64 features that did indeed hit the memory hard. If the game had any sort of visual issue that could be described as "playstation like", they would consider it a defect and not let publish the game. The biggest one of those is the Z-Buffer. It triples the memory bandwidth demands of writing a pixel, but you either have to use it, or you have to be absolutely 100% freaking sure no polygon will intersect or go over another or it's a block. Most of those 60 FPS games, and even some very impressive 30 FPS ones like world driving championship chose the "carefully manage polygons" route.
@@3dmarth It's 90's nintendo, totally completely fair (tm) Now don't complain or there will be a terrible chip shortage and your cartridges will take longer to be manufactured.
Yep. I read somewhere that World Driver Championship is actually running without Z-Buffer and the developers were praying Nintendo didn´t notice. I think is mostly unnoticeable during gameplay, but during replays with some camera angles you can notice some weird texture shaking, it is also noticeable in the car selection screen on the road floor texture.
@@goralski21 Unfortunately, many emulators just use "60 FPS" to mean "100% speed", as the console outputs a 60Hz video signal, even in 30fps games. PCSX2 comes to mind. On the other hand, Dolphin and Project 64 both let you see the actual FPS or DLs, as well as the 60Hz video output.
Just by looking. Try comparing some 60fps games with some 30fps games, and the difference should be apparent. Ideally, play the games yourself, as there are a lot of fake 60fps videos on TH-cam. If you have any modern-ish PC games, see if there's an option to switch between the two and compare them.
I just wanted to stop watching and go play any game, and I don't think there is a better feeling than that, so thank you Game Sack for always bringing joy to my days.
With games like Dead or Alive, how exactly did the Saturn output a high res mode 480 image @ 60fps? AFAIK, this was before the area of HDTV and the NTSC televisions of the time couldn't display XXXx480 images at 60fps. 480 anything would have to be interlaced @ 29.97hz which is why most games used some variation of XXXx240 to display 60fps with the even and odd 480i fields each making up a unique "frame" An image that was say, 720x480 would be limited to 29.97Hz (close enough to say 30fps was the NTSC limit for 480 images) Systems like Gamecube got around this by offering a special 480P mode over component cables if used with a compatible TV and Dreamcast had an optional VGA connector for use with a PC monitor, but I thought Saturn only had basic TV modes.
There were not any 29hz TVs back in the day. All tvs were 60hz in Ntsc territories and 50hz in Pal. I don´t think any tv would have worked at all if you feed them a 29hz signal.
@@jsr734 They were 60hz as in 60 fields per second, not frames. They had to interlace two 240 line images to make a single 480i image @ 29.97hz. The only way they could do 60fps is to display each 240 (or less) field as its own frame. This is why all 60fps games ran at 240 or less (less usually because of the problem of overscan). 480p 60hz was beyond NTSC of that time.
@@Claudius_Nero In a true 480i interlaced video signal that is displaying a 480 lines picture the 2 "fields" correspond to 1 "frame" in time. So when a modern tv deinterlace the 480i video signal it produces a progresive 60fps video frames.
In effect you get 60 half frames per second, with the bandwidth cost of only 30 full frames. As far as the game is concerned, it simulates and draws 60 frames per second. Fun fact: any PS1 or Saturn game running in interlaced mode *had* to run at a stable 60fps, otherwise it would cause graphical glitches. That's because they didn't have the VRAM capacity to hold two full high-resolution frames at once, so you can't use the traditional buffer swap technique. Instead, those consoles render directly to the interlaced fields and have to be done drawing before those fields get scanned to the display output.
@@Astfgl No, at least in the Ps1 case. All Ps1 games rendering at high resolution are rendering at least one "progressive" framebuffer, so its just the video output that is interlaced. In the Saturn´s case, i really don´t know, but they actually may be using "filed rendering" to achive its 704x480 high res mode? It Is possible i think, and amazing too. As you said that technique requires locked 60fps rendering all the time. As an interesting note. The only Ps1 game i have found using field rendering to achive a high res picture is Mission Impossible, but only in the mission briefing screens, the ingame graphics are 512x240 progressive.
I like these compilation videos - I always find at least one new game to look up and maybe play. If you're taking suggestions - I think it would be interesting to have a compilation of PS2 games with widescreen support, as the PS2 did catch that transitional timeframe of the standard switching from 4:3 to 16:9.
I had to restart this video because i started reading the comments immediately and wasnt paying attention to the video. Boy howdy, that was a rollercoaster
All 240p games from Atari 2600, Nes, Master System, PC Engine, Megadrive, Super Nintendo to tons of 240p games in the Saturn, Play Station, N64 and even some 240p games on Dreamcast and Ps2?
@@jsr734 I was more thinking of consoles like GameCube, PS2, Xbox, Wii, etc that allow games to run in 480p (aka Progressive Scan). My bad for not making that clear.
@@RadioTails Well, 240p is also "progressive scan" that is why i was asking. The Gamecube, Ps2 and Xbox are interesting as it seems the availability for progressive scan depends on the region. It seems the Pal Gamecube and Pal Xbox don´t support progressive scan natively, only the Pal Ps2 had some games with progressive scan (480p) option. Of course on Ntsc consoles progressive scan was out of the box in most cases but still some games were not compatible.
@jsr734 Most PAL GameCube games changed the Progressive Scan screen to 60/50 Hz screen (or just used 50 Hz | In some rare cases used 60 Hz). It is possible to force some PAL GameCube games to use 480p, and even ones where the NTSC games didn't (like Super Monkey Ball). The post was more of a joke because Joe gets very upset in his videos where interlace is used. Plus there are way too many games to talk about. Maybe games that don't support 480p officially?
@@RadioTails Yes, I am in ex-ntsc land so i was shocked to learn than the european Gamecube and Xbox didn´t support progressive scan 😲. Really weird, specially for the Xbox but is good to know at least they offered a 60/50 hz option
That Taramaru game is one game I will definitely emulate or play on a modded Saturn that can play burned CDs. Also, Skeleton Warriors is based on a Saturday morning cartoon that aired on CBS.
I remember the Skeleton Warriors cartoon, but not the toy line. I remember enjoying MK 4 a lot on N64. And yes, do a PS1 games at 60 FPS video or three.
N64 folks: I'm seeing a lot of comments about games you think are 60fps, but aren't really. If you're playing them in an emulator, they are likely enhanced compared to what the real hardware is capable of. The emulator is not representative of the real console when they're used in this manner.
on N64 it was easiest to run games at 20fps because of the data path design most games going faster on the screen draw were letting the RDP run most parts independent of user input.
I'm gay
@@bksgames9891 ur gay
I’m gay
I believe Star Wars: Rogue Squadron has an uncapped framerate. While it never hits 60fps on original hardware, it will on an emulator. Probably why many are confused.
This episode has a lot of Fun Per Second!
Great to see Savaki being covered. It is such weirdly neat Saturn jank.
Panda spotted
Hey man great video on Sega's failure, BTW. I watched in two parts. I watched the 2nd part right after I released this video, LOL.
@@GameSack Thanks Joe!! Glad you liked it, and great to see you feature some wonderful Saturn games in creamy 60fps.
And F-Zero too. :)
I had n64, ps1, and the saturn. The older i get, the more i appreciate the saturn. Love that amazing system.
I really loved it at the time, and like it a lot more than N64. At least in the United States I have to give PSX the overall nod as the best of the four main systems that gen just because of the library, but Saturn is still amazing.
Honestly while I prefer the typical graphics in a Saturn game I was still surprised by how much better and more powerful it looks in this video after you get done with the N64 segment.
It’s kind of making me think even even more that N64 was the worst design system that generation.
You should do an episode on the lowest frame rate games.
2/3 of the N64 library. Done. Lol
@@TooBokoothat would be a long ass video lol
There's already been a few n64 compilation on the channel
Trolllolol
Do you really wish to inflict upon Joe the torturous pain that is Virtual Hydlide?
@@Astfgl he did that one already. I mean it was more of a skit than an actual review, but still lol
One major thing I love about Game Sack is ol' boy is COMMITTED to excellence. Critiques are relevant and on point, the humor is A1, and you're never left uninformed about a game you don't necessarily know.
and theyre just comforting man lol i love falling asleep to their vids and waking up in the middle of the night with it playing lol joe has a nice voice for relaxing viewing, i love all the cheesy dad jokes LOL
Yup😊
@@Dominicn123Me too. It's audio-visual comfort food.
This video unintentionally reminded me of how awesome the Virtua Fighter 2 OST is. Takenobu Mitsuyoshi is a legend.
nothing beats getting home from the bar and seeing a Game Sack video is up
Imagine drinking alcohol
@@SeanPennIIit’s good for you
It's the best! I'm on a train ride home. This helps
@@DawnRazor-wy8uv lol sucks to suck I guess
@@DawnRazor-wy8uv im asian so i know how to hold my drinks and a friend who didnt drink drives everyone home. besides if i was drunk i wouldnt be able to type.
I’m so impressed by the quality Joe continues to bring to this show. It’s the most consistently good thing in my life lol. Thanks Game Sack!
Joe is one of the few guys that was involved in this stuff early and still going strong today.
True! Its been years and Gamesack is still as good as ep1.
No kidding. the passion really shows
In regards to longevity, he has even surpassed James Rolfe.
Joe puts out more content more often than James does at this point, too.
@@thisisnotachannelAlso James's stuff is still... fine.
Meanwhile Joe's output has only improved, year on year.
Funny enough, the actors might've "lost" their jobs in MK4 but more jobs were created as a result of the mocap techniques used for the 3d fighters
True!
I think most of the more famous or known ones are basically still doing mocap.
Richard Divizio(the digitized actor for Kano and Baraka) technically wasn't fired as his likeness was still used for Quan Chi on the arcade cabinet for MK4... but yeah a lot of people were "future endeavored"...
Não. Foram criados empregos precarizados.
One more game on the N64 that tries it's best to maintain it's 60fps is the amazing Mischief Makers! I love this game and it uses some polygonal backgrounds at times and it scrolls and runs smootly. :)
F-Zero X may still be my favourite racing game. Worth owning an N64 just for this one game IMO. And what an awesome soundtrack.
Ever play GX?
theres 1 track where u can break gravity
Golden fox on the cylindrical oval track (Silence I think). Get max speed boost and hit the boosters while boosting and ull go so fast ull fly upwards off the track
@@tfofgaming3413 GX is an insane title. I really hope that it either gets remastered or a sequel, but that would depend on Nintendo doing another collab with Sega.
No idea how I managed to never play it. Had a PS1 but all my friends had N64s, and yet none had F-Zero.
"The Nintendo 64... does what it can." is a very apt review of the entire system. Graphics, sound, games, all of it.
I LOVED Killer Instinct Gold on the N64 and play so many hours of it. Had great music and awesome fighting with all of its crazy combos.
F-Zero X was mind blowing at the time seeing a polygonal 3D game run that smoothly at home.
Would love to see Sega release a Saturn games collection like they do with the Genesis ones
X2! I've got a Genesis Collection game on PS2, 3, and 4. Where's the Saturn/Dreamcast Collections?
Yes, and one holding Panzer Dragoon Saga. That game is too expensive otherwise to own physically!
@@Pooby1000 ikr? it's insane the amount of Genesis collections, we had a Dreamcast Collection for the 360 but other than that nothing else, just Genesis 😅
We’re probably just now getting to the point where emulating the Saturn is possible on the very newest consoles. The PS4 and XBOne probably couldn’t handle it, they have worse CPUs than my old laptop, which can’t run Saturn at full speed.
never gonna happen. they want the dreamcast and saturn to be forgotten. just Genesis and Sonic Sonic Sonic
I didn't grow up playing video games, I don't own any gaming consoles, majority of these games I've never played nor heard of, but I love watching Game Sack on Sunday morning!
You should be at church, heathen!
that's very odd but interesting
Most Saturn games that look like they have a flat polygonal floor are likely just using VDP2 instead. Great video, would love to see a PS1 version.
Yeah same. Not too many 3d games on the PS1 managed it. That bonus disc of ridge racer type 4 comes to mind
Yep VDP2 was the best trick the Saturn has up its sleeve.
My favorite usage of it is in Panzer Dragoon II where it uses it to create these huge landscapes & set pieces. Such as when you're in the ravine and you fly off the cliff, the scope is insane.
@@Autotrope Nope. There are a ton of games running at 60fps on the Play Station including lots of 3d fighting games in high res mode.
@@jsr734 This is true but its still a tiny fraction compared to how many games came out (~100 60fps 3D games vs. 7000+ total games).
Games that come to mind are the Tekken trilogy, Both Bloody Roars, Both Tobals, Dead or Alive, Dynasty Warriors, Rival Schools, Ehrgeiz, Raystorm, Raycrisis, Einhander, Xevious 3D/G+, Klonoa, Tomba, The Granstream Saga, Pong: The Next Level, Tempest X3, Micro Machines V3, Rat Attack, iS: Internal Section, Roll Away, Intelligent Qube, Devil Dice, Forsaken, etc.
@@AutotropeOr the high-fi mode of GT1...
I think the Saturn had a technical - perhaps RAM-based - limitation, which forced 8-bit textures on VDP1 at high resolutions, which meant no lighting. This will be why there are mixed-resolution titles where VDP2 runs in high resolution but VDP1 runs in standard resolution, as I don't think the image would fit in VDP1's 256KB frame buffers. This could explain Virtua Fighter 2's baked-in lighting as compared to the real-time lighting in, say, Fighters Megamix.
Gotta love a late night game sack video
I haven't watched GameSack in a while and I gotta say, there's just something so nostalgic about watching Joe do what he does best! I love this channel! 😁
For me (and my time schedule) are the Game Sack sunday mornings, I have been watching this show like this for a while now.
That has nothing to do with the video.
Would definitely enjoy a PS1 video about this. Also Dreamcast. Their lists are longer, but you could always break them up into different episodes.
Hey Joe! I thought it was weird that you mentioned Skeleton Warriors was “from Playmates,” which is true, as it was published by them, but there’s another reason that game is sort of noteworthy and also the only reason I remember it. It’s the first game developed by Neversoft, a game developer that went on to make the Tony Hawk’s Pro Skater series and also some Guitar Hero games before being sucked up into the Call of Duty mines that every Activision-Blizzard owned studio is fated to being designated to. Thankfully, they got to dissolve the company after working on Ghosts, probably the most panned CoD entry in recent memory.
They were also responsible for the excellent Spider-Man games on the original Playstation.
These games bring back 90s nostalgia of a Blockbuster run and sleepovers with friends trying to stay up late with copies of EGM and Gamepro all over the floor.
We grew up during the golden age
That's a false memory.
@@prezidenttrump5171you're fake news.
Thunder Force V is 60fps and using polygons for all the enemies and some of the background elements.
I considered adding that one, but there's just too much slowdown for me to include it.
The reality is that the Saturn is not less powerful than the N64. The N64 hardware could do nice effects but the console was very underpowered, this is why you either see nice looking games running at sub 10fps, or barebone games running at 60fps.
Kind of sounds like a repeat of the SNES vs Genesis, if I'm understanding right. So one's got better visual fidelity while the other has more raw power?
Now that I think about it, raw power definitely makes sense for the very arcadey approach Sega took to the Saturn's hardware design (even if that did make it way more difficult to develop for unless the devs were already accustomed to Sega's super-bespoke and complex arcade systems of the day).
As an early adopter of the Sega Saturn.. when I first rented Virtua Fighter 2.. I was mindblown. not only did it have a high resolution, but it ran at 60fps. hadn't seen any polygon console game run at 60fps until then. Wish I bought that game instead of Fighting Vipers.
I wish at the time, (as sadly had to sell collection a decade ago) I bought fighters megamix in the day.... to this day I've never played it.
But Fighting Vipers is an exellent fighting game. I mean is not that Virtua Fighter 2 is bad, but i think Fighting Vipers looks a little more advanced technically on the Saturn.
@@jsr734 nah the higher resolution on vf2 looks far better to me personally
@@orderofmagnitude-TPATP But i think both use the same resolution 704x480.
I can’t believe how often Joe puts these videos out now. Long, high quality, informative videos with a ton of editing and script, plus game footage. And he still has been cranking them out every week or two. Makes Sunday mornings better.
It's inspiring!
Joe, thank you for sharing the secret everyday struggle of the audio engineer in your end sketch! That was hilarious :D
Mischief Makers on the N64 also had a few polygonal stages!
Very true!
Such a great idea for an episode! I didn't expect the N64 to have many games, but it was mind-blowing playing either F-Zero X or MK4, and seeing how smooth those ran. The Saturn had a bunch that I never realized! Imagine if Virtual Hydlide could run at that framerate?! Seriously though, awesome episode as always Joe!
if i remember correctly, konami fighter Rakugakids was also a 60FPS N64 game, and a rather unknown one at that
definitely worth a look!
That cut to the Game Sack logo right when Samus gets knocked out of the Smash Bros. arena was a damn smooth bit of editing there.
It's always a good night when a new Game Sack video pops up.
For an excellent example of the advantages of 480i60 over 240p60, check out the original arcade version of Tekken 3. There's a setting in the options menu that lets you choose.
The 240p mode looks like a chunky mess with the high-detail character models, especially when zoomed out.
240p60 is still much better for sprite-based 2D fighters and shooters though, also on CRTs. The flickering of 480i is not good for typical 2D assets. It's one thing I appreciate with the Dreamcast and PS2 as well, for the 2D arcade ports that still supported 240p when appropriate, although I wish more of them did.
It looks like a chunky mess because the game was never intended for 240p resolution.I am guessing 512x240 because Tekken 3 Arcade normally renders at 512x480.
@@Mogura87480i can look great on 2D games if the art was created for that resolution. For example, the Guilty Gear games.
Is it just me or does the Saturn just look phenomenal next to the N64?
Saturn devs definitely focused more on fast-paced, action-orientated arcade-style experiences (kinda what you would expect from SEGA), mainly 3D Fighters in this case, which probably benefitted the most from 60FPS.
N64 on the other hand had more experiences featuring new, "big" 3D worlds where the 3D itself was the main selling point. Consumers and developers didn't care that much about frame rate - most N64 games don't even reach 30FPS consistently - it was probably also not really worth it. Like Ocarina of Time doesn't need 60 FPS, even if it would've been nice. You sort of just accepted a lower frame rate as a trade-off.
Nowadays, many Saturn games look leagues better than many N64 games, because early 3D and its "big" levels really haven't aged well and because most of us actually think the 2D (or 2.5D) games weren't at all outdated.
@@jhkuno88wrong
It looks on par i would say. But that is because none of those games were really pushing the N64 really hard. With more complex games like Conker, Bajo Kazooie/Tooie, Golden Eye, Perfect Dark, etc. there is no competition.
I love the use of chapter markers in the video. There are so many times i have to scrub around and find the name of the game again. Please continue to do so!!
Yes, 60 FPS Playstation games!
And that skit definitely hits home, lol.
The PSX 60FPS video would be fantastic! Also, the microphone struggle is real. I felt that one in my soul.
So now I’m really curious, what games have “unlockable” high frame rate modes?
Only one I can think of is Sin & Punishment for n64
@@VexX6 You don't say? 🤔 How do you unlock it?
@@thefroyukenfiles3641 beat the game on Hard
Panzer Dragoon and Super Monkey Ball Jr are the only ones I'm aware of
As an absolute noob to content creation, that end skit was gold!!
Hello, great episode
these were great clips:
@13:50 - this was good
@14:37 - i love the wall kick in this
these two clips kind of show of all the neat things you could do in the game and they're only 20 seconds long each, great stuff.
Awesome video Joe, thank you again! Great seeing Zero Divide get the attention it deserves, a real hidden gem and masterpiece!
Your skits at the end are getting really funny.
looking at fighting vipers with mesh textures running on the model2 i can assume that for the saturn real half transparencies were never considered from the beginning of platform specs development.
That post credit skit is the best one yet. Genuinely made me laugh! 😅
If memory serves me correctly, the background layer in NiGHTS runs at 60fps while all the 3D models run at 30fps.
Yes that's true! More than a couple of Saturn games did that. Of course I couldn't count such a thing for this episode.
This is why I love Game Sack. Only Joe would ever think to make a video about this.
So you're saying that the Saturn is more powerful than the N64. Got it.
The narration during the Rugby game was a riot 😂
This video brought back so many memories. Sega had some great fighting games on the Saturn. I loved Fighting Vipers and Last Bronx but my favourite was always Virtua Fighter 2. That music on Akira’s stage is still amazing after all these years.
Thanks!
Thanks!!!
That is impressive! I mean both the Saturn and you being able to compile a list like this.
Mind blown!
Outro was really funny
Breakfast in Germany and watching GameSack 🤩 Greetings from Wuerzburg 😉
Just think, Doom (Sat) could of been in there if Carmack wasn't a baby.
World Driver Championship for the N64 apparently runs at 60fps and has very good graphics, and doesn't need the expansion pak to do it.
Late 90's PC games felt like goddamn magic with the refresh rate and resolution available.
Jonah Lomu Rugby is low key one of the best multiplayer games of that generation
Isn’t Zero Divide the one that has a version of Phalanx on it?
One of the Best Retro gaming channels! 👍🏿
The best part of Clockwork Knight is the uncanny low poly cutscenes. They are unintentionally super creepy.
Cool, in Mortal Kombat 4 (N64), the sword actually comes flying towards you. 5:24
Skeleton Warriors is among my favorite games and cartoons.💀
PlayStation 1 games that run at 60 fps: Fighting: Tekken 1, 2 and 3, Bloody Roar 1 and 2, Tobal 1 and 2, Dead or Alive, Street fighter EX 1 and 2 + plus, Rival Schools, Zero Divide 2, Mortal Kombat 4, Dynasty Warriors, Kensei - Sacred Fist, Critical Blow, Genei Tougi: Shadow Struggle, FatalFury Wild Ambition.
Shoot em Ups and similar: Einhander, R-Type Delta, G-Darius , Thunder Force V, Ray Storm and Ray Crisis, Night Raid, Philosoma, Elemental Gearbolt, IS:Internal Section, N2O: Nitrous Oxide, Tempest X3, Sanvein.
Racing: Rapid Racer, Motorhead (60fps mode), Crime Killer, Running Wild, Street Racer, Micro Machines V3, RC de GO! , Ridge Racer Turbo (RR4 bonus disc) , Gran Turismo (Hi-Fi mode Time Trial-only) , Colin McRae Rally via a cheat code.
others: Klonoa: Door to Phantomile, Rascal, Forsaken, Devil Dice/Xi, I.Q.: Intelligent Qube and I.Q. Final, Roll Away (Kula World), Floating Runner, Agent Armstrong, The Granstream Saga, Pong: The Next Level, Skeleton Warriors, Contra games...
Yep! And probably more!
Forsaken is not 60fps on PSX, but it's close to that on PC/N64. But Shadowmaster is smooth on PSX. Playstation also has a game called 360° that was 60fps i think.
@@M1XART Wrong, Forsaken on PS1 has a much higher frame rate than on N64. On the N64 it's 30 fps (with drops) there are smaller stages, etc., it's very different from the PS1/PC version. While the PS1 goes up to 60 FPS (but with drops too), it has the same stages in the same size as the PC version.
@@DEN-ROCK i don't know what you're on, or do you just emulate N64. I do own Forsaken for PSX, N64 and PC. N64 & PC has zero drops. While PSX-version is barely 25fps on PAL.
I love when the game sack episodes have time stamps !!
The most incredible pronunciation of Jonah Lomu I have ever heard in my life
Since it's from the same era, what PS1 games ran at 60fps? I remember that bonus version of Ridge Racer was at 60fps
16:40 if the ground is 'completely flat', it was almost certainly rendered w/ VDP2, meaning it's not made up of 'polygons' it's actually a background layer tilemap - like a board - being scaled & rotated & subject to perspective-correct affine transformations a lá SNES' *Mode 7*, so naturally it'll be completely flat but it's a much cheaper fill rate for faster performance & much more visually stable (won't warp/warble or pop-in & -out) than if one were to construct a large surface out of polygons w/ VDP1 or on PlayStation. Almost every one of these 60 FPS 3D Saturn games are making extensive use of this hardware feature, & it's often used to draw so-called 'infinite planes' out to the horizon which competing consoles could never. セガサターン、シロ！
Nah, VDP2 was definitely the ace up Saturn's sleeve, yes I guess N64 could draw two faces to a similar effect (PS1 definitely can't) but I mean the results of this video speak for themselves: just five 60 FPS 3D N64 games versus - probably more than - twenty-eight 60 FPS 3D Saturn games many of which render in a high-res 640×480i or even 704×480i. Neither PS1 nor N64 have anything quite like _DecAthlete_ for instance & that's a fact, which is especially embarrassing for a system w/ 3D acceleration like N64 (hope all the blurry graphical effects were worth it)!@@jhkuno88
@@powerfulaura5166 Believe it or not, i think the Ps1 can do mode 7 graphics too. Just look at the world map in the Final Fantasy Snes compilations on the Ps1 and also the Jumping Flash games are using a similar tech to achieve the floor´s textures.
Capcom wanted that Final Fight fighting game to work so badly that they just let FF take over the Street Fighter universe.
Thank you so much Gamesack for your content
If you count Clockwork Knight on Saturn, why didn't you count Mischief Makers on N64 as well?
So in that Mortal Kombat 4 continue screen, what saves your character from falling to their death if you continue? Does the bottom of that pit turn into a giant marshmallow or something?
If memory serves me right, it just hardcuts back to the character select screen or the game.
lolol
He's saved by plot armour.
Wait, you're telling me the N64 can do over 16FPS!? Blasphemy!!!
17:45 As a European, the moment I played my totally legit NTSC-U Version of Tekken 3 on my totally-not-modded PS1 was when I converted to the Church of 60 FPS, and never looked back. Compared to my actually legit PAL version, it was a true revelation.
Ah, good to see the classic "three connected pieces of metal" as an awkward weapon, because nunchucks were so dangerous it was too risky to even show them to you.
Nintendo kinda demanded you to use several of the N64 features that did indeed hit the memory hard.
If the game had any sort of visual issue that could be described as "playstation like", they would consider it a defect and not let publish the game.
The biggest one of those is the Z-Buffer. It triples the memory bandwidth demands of writing a pixel, but you either have to use it, or you have to be absolutely 100% freaking sure no polygon will intersect or go over another or it's a block.
Most of those 60 FPS games, and even some very impressive 30 FPS ones like world driving championship chose the "carefully manage polygons" route.
Yet F-Zero X somehow got away with the entire track disappearing when you turn sideways? Sounds like a double standard to me.
@@3dmarth It's 90's nintendo, totally completely fair (tm)
Now don't complain or there will be a terrible chip shortage and your cartridges will take longer to be manufactured.
Yep. I read somewhere that World Driver Championship is actually running without Z-Buffer and the developers were praying Nintendo didn´t notice. I think is mostly unnoticeable during gameplay, but during replays with some camera angles you can notice some weird texture shaking, it is also noticeable in the car selection screen on the road floor texture.
How do you find out if a game runs at 60 fps for these older games?
Almost all games before the 5th generation are with a few exceptions like super double dragon on the snes.
You can use an emulator and turn on the option “fps on” to see it.
@@goralski21 Unfortunately, many emulators just use "60 FPS" to mean "100% speed", as the console outputs a 60Hz video signal, even in 30fps games.
PCSX2 comes to mind. On the other hand, Dolphin and Project 64 both let you see the actual FPS or DLs, as well as the 60Hz video output.
@@3dmarth didn’t know that
Just by looking. Try comparing some 60fps games with some 30fps games, and the difference should be apparent. Ideally, play the games yourself, as there are a lot of fake 60fps videos on TH-cam. If you have any modern-ish PC games, see if there's an option to switch between the two and compare them.
I just wanted to stop watching and go play any game, and I don't think there is a better feeling than that, so thank you Game Sack for always bringing joy to my days.
With games like Dead or Alive, how exactly did the Saturn output a high res mode 480 image @ 60fps?
AFAIK, this was before the area of HDTV and the NTSC televisions of the time couldn't display XXXx480 images at 60fps.
480 anything would have to be interlaced @ 29.97hz which is why most games used some variation of XXXx240 to display 60fps with the even and odd 480i fields each making up a unique "frame"
An image that was say, 720x480 would be limited to 29.97Hz (close enough to say 30fps was the NTSC limit for 480 images)
Systems like Gamecube got around this by offering a special 480P mode over component cables if used with a compatible TV and Dreamcast had an optional VGA connector for use with a PC monitor, but I thought Saturn only had basic TV modes.
There were not any 29hz TVs back in the day. All tvs were 60hz in Ntsc territories and 50hz in Pal. I don´t think any tv would have worked at all if you feed them a 29hz signal.
@@jsr734 They were 60hz as in 60 fields per second, not frames. They had to interlace two 240 line images to make a single 480i image @ 29.97hz. The only way they could do 60fps is to display each 240 (or less) field as its own frame. This is why all 60fps games ran at 240 or less (less usually because of the problem of overscan). 480p 60hz was beyond NTSC of that time.
@@Claudius_Nero In a true 480i interlaced video signal that is displaying a 480 lines picture the 2 "fields" correspond to 1 "frame" in time. So when a modern tv deinterlace the 480i video signal it produces a progresive 60fps video frames.
In effect you get 60 half frames per second, with the bandwidth cost of only 30 full frames. As far as the game is concerned, it simulates and draws 60 frames per second. Fun fact: any PS1 or Saturn game running in interlaced mode *had* to run at a stable 60fps, otherwise it would cause graphical glitches. That's because they didn't have the VRAM capacity to hold two full high-resolution frames at once, so you can't use the traditional buffer swap technique. Instead, those consoles render directly to the interlaced fields and have to be done drawing before those fields get scanned to the display output.
@@Astfgl No, at least in the Ps1 case. All Ps1 games rendering at high resolution are rendering at least one "progressive" framebuffer, so its just the video output that is interlaced.
In the Saturn´s case, i really don´t know, but they actually may be using "filed rendering" to achive its 704x480 high res mode? It Is possible i think, and amazing too. As you said that technique requires locked 60fps rendering all the time.
As an interesting note. The only Ps1 game i have found using field rendering to achive a high res picture is Mission Impossible, but only in the mission briefing screens, the ingame graphics are 512x240 progressive.
Saw the video title and thought "So, a lot of Saturn games,and a few N64 games?" 😅
Always excited for a new Game Sack. Let's get to it.
I like these compilation videos - I always find at least one new game to look up and maybe play.
If you're taking suggestions - I think it would be interesting to have a compilation of PS2 games with widescreen support, as the PS2 did catch that transitional timeframe of the standard switching from 4:3 to 16:9.
I had to restart this video because i started reading the comments immediately and wasnt paying attention to the video. Boy howdy, that was a rollercoaster
Can't wait for the episode where Joe talks about games that run in Progressive Scan (480p / 720p)!
All 240p games from Atari 2600, Nes, Master System, PC Engine, Megadrive, Super Nintendo to tons of 240p games in the Saturn, Play Station, N64 and even some 240p games on Dreamcast and Ps2?
@@jsr734 I was more thinking of consoles like GameCube, PS2, Xbox, Wii, etc that allow games to run in 480p (aka Progressive Scan). My bad for not making that clear.
@@RadioTails Well, 240p is also "progressive scan" that is why i was asking.
The Gamecube, Ps2 and Xbox are interesting as it seems the availability for progressive scan depends on the region. It seems the Pal Gamecube and Pal Xbox don´t support progressive scan natively, only the Pal Ps2 had some games with progressive scan (480p) option. Of course on Ntsc consoles progressive scan was out of the box in most cases but still some games were not compatible.
@jsr734 Most PAL GameCube games changed the Progressive Scan screen to 60/50 Hz screen (or just used 50 Hz | In some rare cases used 60 Hz).
It is possible to force some PAL GameCube games to use 480p, and even ones where the NTSC games didn't (like Super Monkey Ball).
The post was more of a joke because Joe gets very upset in his videos where interlace is used. Plus there are way too many games to talk about. Maybe games that don't support 480p officially?
@@RadioTails Yes, I am in ex-ntsc land so i was shocked to learn than the european Gamecube and Xbox didn´t support progressive scan 😲. Really weird, specially for the Xbox but is good to know at least they offered a 60/50 hz option
Joe even though the videos are awesome we all know we come here to see the ending sketches too. You deliver on those :D
I like how both Sega and Nintendo both made great F-Zero games
A great day to watch game sach.
Edit: I know the pain in that end sketch. Perfect
Man, jonah lomu rugby is such a fantastic (rugby) game.
Great episode as always, man! thanks!
"All those actors put out of work by technology" that's a good joke give state of Hollywood right now
Game sack is one of my go tos for cleaning, eating, sleeping etc. ❤️❤️❤️
Also for sitting on the toilet which I'm currently doing lol
That Taramaru game is one game I will definitely emulate or play on a modded Saturn that can play burned CDs.
Also, Skeleton Warriors is based on a Saturday morning cartoon that aired on CBS.
21:52 Why are they so tall? Why are their legs so long?
the skit at the end: top shelf comedy😂
This video will be amazing to refer to in the future. I wonder if you have plans to do a similar style video with maybe the PSP?
I remember the Skeleton Warriors cartoon, but not the toy line. I remember enjoying MK 4 a lot on N64. And yes, do a PS1 games at 60 FPS video or three.
The post credits scene is like adjusting the temperature in my shower.
For real. I'd make a skit like that, but those damn censors don't wanna see my sack!
Radiant Silvergun truly is a..... treasure
It truly is a treasure, made by Treasure to treasure forever.....
The animation on go go goal is super impressive for the time
What a treat, thanks a ton Joe
Can’t wait for the 5 hour long video about the 60fps 2D games on Saturn