I adore the way Wind Waker connects itself to oot. I think it's got a theme of _moving on from tradition_ though, actually. There's still the influence of oot under the surface, literally and figuratively, but at the end, the King destroys it. He says that old conflict never was Link and Tetra's, and gives them the chance to be free from it and create a new kingdom. It kind of feels like the developers trying to give themselves an opening to have more freedom. I think oot, mm, ww, and botw* all have meta narratives about the process of creating the game and it's place in the franchise/gaming world. (*At least, might be others.)
In the end, I think you're right, but certainly the impetus for the game is DEEPLY rooted in tradition. 'Dedicated to the future with honor to the past,' or so it goes.
Wind Waker was my first Zelda, in fact it was my first story-based game. I hadn't the chance to ever experience the others games. So when the "legend" about the Hero of Time was told at the beginning, it really felt like just that to me, a myth from a forgotten time that I, like Link in WW, was hearing as something to fantastical to be true. I was also the same age as Link in WW when I played it. It is such a special game for me.
I had played OoT and MM before WW, so I never had that experience. It's cool to know it impacted you so deeply! Hope you ended up playing those games ;)
This is why I love Windwaker so much. I love the idea of Link not being choosen but forceing the gods to choose him to save his sister. My favorite game of all time definitely
Thank you for this, absolutely loved it! I remember first seeing the intro as a kid and the feeling of witnessing a legend, especially due to the amazing art and music. I just replayed the game after decades and the depth and maturity in the writing hit so hard, especially the subversions of traditional legends you mentioned. Ages after the Hero of Time it is now ironically Ganondorf who fights for the same Hyrule of old, but unlike the Hero who fought for the future Ganondorf tries to destroy the new world’s future by clinging to the past. I could go on and on but suffice it to say there‘s a reason why this game‘s Ganondorf, Link and even Zelda are maybe my favorite in the whole series.
And they're made all the more great because of how well Nintendo tapped into those old games to add additional depth to WW story - thanks for checking it out!
@@LittleBeanGreen Sure, immediately subbed! Then I saw all the other videos you did, even on Tunic (one of my all-time favorites), so I guess I know what I‘ll be watching the next few days haha. Replaying the old games and watching videos like yours really hammered it home for me again how well Nintendo can write stories and weave in lore when the try. So fingers crossed for more of that in future games!
@@lmnt66 Hopefully you enjoy them! Back in the old days of that Tunic video, I was still finding my way...and maybe a little harsher than I needed to be 😅 I'd appreciate your thoughts on them!
I have had a hunch for a while that for many players of The Legend of Zelda titles, one primary motivator for completing each game is uncovering the story and myth of that title-that is to say that it's not just stimulating puzzles and exciting gameplay mechanics; it makes gameplay an analog to being patient and attentive and building the story in your mind as you listen to a myth being told by a storyteller. (This would explain at least part of why both Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom felt different, since a significant portion of the myth of their world is not being experienced through gameplay in the present as it had been in previous titles) As a corollary to that hunch, and with the additional note that it seems to me that modern myth and storytelling are possibly less archetypal and profound than they have ever been (when looking at 21st century fiction media and storytelling overall; there are exceptions like Studio Ghibli's films), I tend to think that the stories told in The Legend of Zelda are for some people their only or one of very few sources of moving and disbelief-suspending archetypal myths. So I would have to agree with you on many points you made, including that this game series works very effectively as a canvas on which to overlay stories that resonate with universal and timeless human experiences, and the failure to do this as seamlessly in the most recent titles may be why some fans are calling for a return to form. I imagine that if our storytelling ancestors could watch their myths play out on a screen they would be astounded and glued to their seats, and if they could've played as a character in their myths and experienced it first person like a video game, I imagine it would have been one of the most memorable experiences of their lives-and considering that humans don't change much across many thousands of years... well you already know.
Well put - I think you're definitely onto something. It'll be interesting to see how Nintendo reacts to some of the audience's reception to the story and if they'll still put gameplay first, but maybe also but more effort into a deeper, richer story.
@@LittleBeanGreen It will definitely be interesting to see! Will watch your suggested game plan (lol) video to see what you're thinking〜 Also top tier reference in your bio-I once had a prof who made every student recite that entire speech from memory in front of the class so that we would never forget it 🫣
@@waterfallfaerie Let me know what you think of that - I've got waaaay to many ideas floating around for a new game but I definitely think the themes could be very interesting. I guess it worked!
It’s funny, the big selling point of the new titles is you can actually go out and touch hyrule’s history. But for some reason they felt the need to also stick to direct storytelling which sometimes results in “info dumping” (the king explaining what happened during the calamity in botw or watching the memories out of order and spoiling stuff in totk for example). Which breaks the immersion. It is no longer a legend, it’s more of a report. But to be fair, older titles also have weak exposition for the most part. Overall sure, there series has evolved but the situation is not as black and white as many Zelda haters would have you believe.
@@56ty_ I think the difference, and the problem with the new games, is that WW used a reference to an old game to enhance its story. The newer games are referencial for the easter eggs, not because it makes sense in the game or deepens the world in any meaningful way.
This is why I never had an issue with the triforce hunting quest. 1. you'll collect the charts and several pieces before it's necessary so it isn't a big deal if you explore somewhat thoroughly and 2. because you're plundering for treasure of a long lost civilization that is tied thematically to the rest of the story and world. I remember feeling like I was uncovering something ancient, something nearly forgotten only being spoken by weird fish men. Then you go under the ocean and find that same legendary world frozen in stasis. Just something truly magical about that setup. Wind Waker should've gotten more dev time it was a gem. I love Pokemon Platinum and a lot of it had to do with the theme of myth and legend that gave me a true sense of wonder about the game I was exploring. Some people really don't process this game is a post apocalypse with the art style being what it was.
Ultimately WWs theme is more about letting go from the past., but it is nuanced enough in that it doesn't end up being "old = bad". Let go of the past specifically when it holds you back and stops you from moving forward to the future. Also it's kind of a pet peeve of mine but WW Link is still very much an incarnation of Link, I know you didn't say that but I keep hearing that when it's only based on very flimsy statements.
I think it's like you said "know where you came from so you can decide whether to take it with you." As for Link - my understanding is that there's kind of a hero 'bloodline' and that this Link may or may not fall into it. It doesn't mean that this Link isn't a incarnation of capital L Link, but that he becomes an incarnation, he isn't born one, which is an idea I much prefer.
Great video! love the concept of Zelda games not just taking from, but also contributing to our interpretation of mythology in our own world. Keep up the great work!
I don’t disagree, these are three of my favorites story wise - that being said, I have a particular fondness for the story of Skyward Sword. I think it often gets overlooked due to its gameplay. The whole game is very linear and I don’t think I’ve ever met anyone who absolutely loved the motion controls. But story wise? Freekin epic. I love a good origin story.
@@TheBatmanMan1 I agree with you. I would honestly put Skyward Sword #4 and Link’s Awakening #5. Those would be my top 5 Zelda games especially when it comes to storytelling.
Tradition matters... Until people arbitrarily decide that the formula is too samey and the developers reinvent the franchise to remove anything traditional about it at all lol
As far as I'm aware, it's not a theory that Wind Waker Link isn't a reincarnation of a previous Link, it's canon and said in-game between Jabun and The King Of Red Lions. I don't remember which of them says it, but one of them says something along the lines of "This one bears no connection to the hero of legend". The soul of the previous Link also isn't in that timeline any longer, so I don't think he would be able to be reincarnated.
@@LittleBeanGreen I agree. I do however think there's a difference, because born or being a reincarnation doesn't necessarily mean you have it easy, you arguably just have more potential. That's kind of my argument to the "chosen one" meaning a character doesn't work for their power. Every Link regardless of blood, spiritual connection, or lack of either still had to set off on a journey they didn't ask to be the protagonist of, and fight their way through serious trials to save the world pretty much. Quite a large burden. But that's the whole heroes journey aspect you mentioned gives Zelda staying power. I'm sorry if this comment is a mess. It's 3:30am, I'm tired, and I'm typing this while listening to a podcast.
If I were to put this logically, given the fact that OOT Adult Zelda sends Hero of Time Link back to the past to the point BEFORE he first met Zelda, his knowledge of Ganondorf’s treachery thwarted his plot to bring Hyrule to its knees, thus leading to his (failed) execution and banishment into the Twilight Realm, the events of Twilight Princess happen long after the Hero of Time mysteriously vanished after the events of Majora’s Mask… Wind Waker’s timeline really ceases to exist… But I don’t want to dismiss it. It’s more of a “what if this timeline/plane of existence/reality continued to exist” scenario. A continuation of an expanded universe sort of speak. An illogical interpretation, but a welcome one for what it was and still is today. The Zelda series is no stranger to expand lore by perspective.
My favourite thing about the whole Atlantis debate is that there really shouldn't be a debate at all. We know the answer: Plato made it up. He admitted he made it up, he was known for creating fiction to explain philosophy and he even described exactly where Atlantis was meant to be and it wasn't there. People just assumed that the whole thing was true EXCEPT where it was and boom. Instant conspiracy theory.
To me there is just something fascinating about lost or secret civilizations: Atlantis in the Atlantic, Lemuria in the Indian Ocean; even the Romans had Thule. Plus I just like ancient civilizations to begin with. It's a wonder why it's hung on THIS long even after its apparent debunking.
I do think the way WW handles tradition makes for an interesting contrast with BotW, and especially TotK. Both are about moving on from tradition in some way, and not being beholden to the past. But in WW, there’s clearly still a respect for what came before, even as there’s a recognition that we should look toward the future, while with BotW, it feels (deliberately) cut off from the past to allow it to do its own thing. Where this gets messy, I think, is TotK, which tried to reconnect the era to the past, but it came out feeling (to me, at least) halfhearted. Closer to lip service than connection. Which really is unfortunate because Zelda is a series that has long been in conversation with itself, but as of TotK it feels like it’s no longer on speaking terms.
And the conversation with itself was shaping up to be the best part! "Dedicated to the future with honor to the past" is how I was thinking of it...but you're right about the new games - Nintendo is trying to have their cake and eat it to.
everything about _Wind Waker_ is great… except for the actual gameplay. I like the way Link controls, how the combat works, how most of the items work… but while an amazing idea in concept, exploring the Great Sea could just be so boring and tedious and unrewarding, at least after the first couple hours of gameplay… and worst of all, the dungeons are the worst in the series (or rather, of the five classic 3D games). sad. …and also, I do think the art style sorta mutes and homogenizes the atmosphere of all the locations, but the atmosphere is does create is so darn charming that I can forgive it 👍
Yeah the sea needed more - probably a console limitation rather than a design one. Might be cool to see a new game return to a similar art style but have the game go wild with the art design.
@@jskywalker58 - could you elaborate? what do you like so much about the gameplay? I think _Wind Waker_ has the lowest finish-to-start ratio for me, because I’ve started it many times, but it’s so one-note that they charm wears off well before the end I’d the game, and I rarely finish it 🤷🏻♂️
I adore the way Wind Waker connects itself to oot. I think it's got a theme of _moving on from tradition_ though, actually. There's still the influence of oot under the surface, literally and figuratively, but at the end, the King destroys it. He says that old conflict never was Link and Tetra's, and gives them the chance to be free from it and create a new kingdom. It kind of feels like the developers trying to give themselves an opening to have more freedom. I think oot, mm, ww, and botw* all have meta narratives about the process of creating the game and it's place in the franchise/gaming world. (*At least, might be others.)
In the end, I think you're right, but certainly the impetus for the game is DEEPLY rooted in tradition. 'Dedicated to the future with honor to the past,' or so it goes.
A title for what would normally be a 20 minute slog of a video essay shortened into 5 minutes of short sweet to the point content. I love you.
Thanks, bub - glad you enjoyed it!
Wind Waker was my first Zelda, in fact it was my first story-based game. I hadn't the chance to ever experience the others games. So when the "legend" about the Hero of Time was told at the beginning, it really felt like just that to me, a myth from a forgotten time that I, like Link in WW, was hearing as something to fantastical to be true. I was also the same age as Link in WW when I played it. It is such a special game for me.
I had played OoT and MM before WW, so I never had that experience. It's cool to know it impacted you so deeply! Hope you ended up playing those games ;)
This is why I love Windwaker so much. I love the idea of Link not being choosen but forceing the gods to choose him to save his sister. My favorite game of all time definitely
I love that aspect of the story!
Thank you for this, absolutely loved it!
I remember first seeing the intro as a kid and the feeling of witnessing a legend, especially due to the amazing art and music.
I just replayed the game after decades and the depth and maturity in the writing hit so hard, especially the subversions of traditional legends you mentioned. Ages after the Hero of Time it is now ironically Ganondorf who fights for the same Hyrule of old, but unlike the Hero who fought for the future Ganondorf tries to destroy the new world’s future by clinging to the past.
I could go on and on but suffice it to say there‘s a reason why this game‘s Ganondorf, Link and even Zelda are maybe my favorite in the whole series.
And they're made all the more great because of how well Nintendo tapped into those old games to add additional depth to WW story - thanks for checking it out!
@@LittleBeanGreen Sure, immediately subbed! Then I saw all the other videos you did, even on Tunic (one of my all-time favorites), so I guess I know what I‘ll be watching the next few days haha.
Replaying the old games and watching videos like yours really hammered it home for me again how well Nintendo can write stories and weave in lore when the try. So fingers crossed for more of that in future games!
@@lmnt66 Hopefully you enjoy them! Back in the old days of that Tunic video, I was still finding my way...and maybe a little harsher than I needed to be 😅 I'd appreciate your thoughts on them!
this style of video is actually really optimal. Because it's short, it leaves me wanting more. That's why I just watched 2 videos in a row
Thanks!
I have had a hunch for a while that for many players of The Legend of Zelda titles, one primary motivator for completing each game is uncovering the story and myth of that title-that is to say that it's not just stimulating puzzles and exciting gameplay mechanics; it makes gameplay an analog to being patient and attentive and building the story in your mind as you listen to a myth being told by a storyteller. (This would explain at least part of why both Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom felt different, since a significant portion of the myth of their world is not being experienced through gameplay in the present as it had been in previous titles) As a corollary to that hunch, and with the additional note that it seems to me that modern myth and storytelling are possibly less archetypal and profound than they have ever been (when looking at 21st century fiction media and storytelling overall; there are exceptions like Studio Ghibli's films), I tend to think that the stories told in The Legend of Zelda are for some people their only or one of very few sources of moving and disbelief-suspending archetypal myths. So I would have to agree with you on many points you made, including that this game series works very effectively as a canvas on which to overlay stories that resonate with universal and timeless human experiences, and the failure to do this as seamlessly in the most recent titles may be why some fans are calling for a return to form. I imagine that if our storytelling ancestors could watch their myths play out on a screen they would be astounded and glued to their seats, and if they could've played as a character in their myths and experienced it first person like a video game, I imagine it would have been one of the most memorable experiences of their lives-and considering that humans don't change much across many thousands of years... well you already know.
Well put - I think you're definitely onto something. It'll be interesting to see how Nintendo reacts to some of the audience's reception to the story and if they'll still put gameplay first, but maybe also but more effort into a deeper, richer story.
@@LittleBeanGreen It will definitely be interesting to see! Will watch your suggested game plan (lol) video to see what you're thinking〜
Also top tier reference in your bio-I once had a prof who made every student recite that entire speech from memory in front of the class so that we would never forget it 🫣
@@waterfallfaerie Let me know what you think of that - I've got waaaay to many ideas floating around for a new game but I definitely think the themes could be very interesting.
I guess it worked!
It’s funny, the big selling point of the new titles is you can actually go out and touch hyrule’s history.
But for some reason they felt the need to also stick to direct storytelling which sometimes results in “info dumping” (the king explaining what happened during the calamity in botw or watching the memories out of order and spoiling stuff in totk for example).
Which breaks the immersion. It is no longer a legend, it’s more of a report.
But to be fair, older titles also have weak exposition for the most part.
Overall sure, there series has evolved but the situation is not as black and white as many Zelda haters would have you believe.
@@56ty_ I think the difference, and the problem with the new games, is that WW used a reference to an old game to enhance its story. The newer games are referencial for the easter eggs, not because it makes sense in the game or deepens the world in any meaningful way.
This is why I never had an issue with the triforce hunting quest. 1. you'll collect the charts and several pieces before it's necessary so it isn't a big deal if you explore somewhat thoroughly and 2. because you're plundering for treasure of a long lost civilization that is tied thematically to the rest of the story and world. I remember feeling like I was uncovering something ancient, something nearly forgotten only being spoken by weird fish men. Then you go under the ocean and find that same legendary world frozen in stasis. Just something truly magical about that setup. Wind Waker should've gotten more dev time it was a gem. I love Pokemon Platinum and a lot of it had to do with the theme of myth and legend that gave me a true sense of wonder about the game I was exploring.
Some people really don't process this game is a post apocalypse with the art style being what it was.
The art style I think ended up hurting it a lot more because so many people overlooked it, even though it is a great game.
Traditions are solutions to problems we've forgotten.
Well said.
As someone who's first game was Wind Waker, I stand by the statements you made at the start of the video!
What a cool experience!
Ultimately WWs theme is more about letting go from the past., but it is nuanced enough in that it doesn't end up being "old = bad". Let go of the past specifically when it holds you back and stops you from moving forward to the future.
Also it's kind of a pet peeve of mine but WW Link is still very much an incarnation of Link, I know you didn't say that but I keep hearing that when it's only based on very flimsy statements.
I think it's like you said "know where you came from so you can decide whether to take it with you."
As for Link - my understanding is that there's kind of a hero 'bloodline' and that this Link may or may not fall into it. It doesn't mean that this Link isn't a incarnation of capital L Link, but that he becomes an incarnation, he isn't born one, which is an idea I much prefer.
Great video! love the concept of Zelda games not just taking from, but also contributing to our interpretation of mythology in our own world. Keep up the great work!
Thanks for checking it out!
fantastic analysis!
Thanks for watching!
Ocarina of Time, Wind Waker, and Majora’s Mask have the best stories in the series.
I think Majora's Mask is my favorite - I've got something cookin' on that front.
100% agree, the series peaked with those 3 games
@@Level_Eleven There's still an opportunity for a new peak ;)
I don’t disagree, these are three of my favorites story wise - that being said, I have a particular fondness for the story of Skyward Sword.
I think it often gets overlooked due to its gameplay. The whole game is very linear and I don’t think I’ve ever met anyone who absolutely loved the motion controls. But story wise? Freekin epic. I love a good origin story.
@@TheBatmanMan1 I agree with you. I would honestly put Skyward Sword #4 and Link’s Awakening #5. Those would be my top 5 Zelda games especially when it comes to storytelling.
Awesome Video Bro!
Thanks for checking it out!
No Problem.
“It makes you wonder what other legends may be true.”
Toon Link X Hat Kid? :)
WE MUST GET TO THE BOTTOM OF THIS.
Tradition matters... Until people arbitrarily decide that the formula is too samey and the developers reinvent the franchise to remove anything traditional about it at all lol
Yeeeeeah about that haha
Different people wrote the game and this was before Aonuma was on his "I hate everything I have created and everything Zelda" arc.
As far as I'm aware, it's not a theory that Wind Waker Link isn't a reincarnation of a previous Link, it's canon and said in-game between Jabun and The King Of Red Lions. I don't remember which of them says it, but one of them says something along the lines of "This one bears no connection to the hero of legend". The soul of the previous Link also isn't in that timeline any longer, so I don't think he would be able to be reincarnated.
I much prefer the idea of someone becoming the hero anyway, rather than being born one.
@@LittleBeanGreen I agree. I do however think there's a difference, because born or being a reincarnation doesn't necessarily mean you have it easy, you arguably just have more potential. That's kind of my argument to the "chosen one" meaning a character doesn't work for their power. Every Link regardless of blood, spiritual connection, or lack of either still had to set off on a journey they didn't ask to be the protagonist of, and fight their way through serious trials to save the world pretty much. Quite a large burden. But that's the whole heroes journey aspect you mentioned gives Zelda staying power. I'm sorry if this comment is a mess. It's 3:30am, I'm tired, and I'm typing this while listening to a podcast.
If I were to put this logically, given the fact that OOT Adult Zelda sends Hero of Time Link back to the past to the point BEFORE he first met Zelda, his knowledge of Ganondorf’s treachery thwarted his plot to bring Hyrule to its knees, thus leading to his (failed) execution and banishment into the Twilight Realm, the events of Twilight Princess happen long after the Hero of Time mysteriously vanished after the events of Majora’s Mask…
Wind Waker’s timeline really ceases to exist…
But I don’t want to dismiss it. It’s more of a “what if this timeline/plane of existence/reality continued to exist” scenario. A continuation of an expanded universe sort of speak. An illogical interpretation, but a welcome one for what it was and still is today. The Zelda series is no stranger to expand lore by perspective.
Yeah, the franchise has never been one to try and logical stay consistent with all its time travel shenanigans. And I think that's fine.
My favourite thing about the whole Atlantis debate is that there really shouldn't be a debate at all. We know the answer: Plato made it up. He admitted he made it up, he was known for creating fiction to explain philosophy and he even described exactly where Atlantis was meant to be and it wasn't there. People just assumed that the whole thing was true EXCEPT where it was and boom. Instant conspiracy theory.
To me there is just something fascinating about lost or secret civilizations: Atlantis in the Atlantic, Lemuria in the Indian Ocean; even the Romans had Thule. Plus I just like ancient civilizations to begin with. It's a wonder why it's hung on THIS long even after its apparent debunking.
I do think the way WW handles tradition makes for an interesting contrast with BotW, and especially TotK.
Both are about moving on from tradition in some way, and not being beholden to the past. But in WW, there’s clearly still a respect for what came before, even as there’s a recognition that we should look toward the future, while with BotW, it feels (deliberately) cut off from the past to allow it to do its own thing. Where this gets messy, I think, is TotK, which tried to reconnect the era to the past, but it came out feeling (to me, at least) halfhearted. Closer to lip service than connection.
Which really is unfortunate because Zelda is a series that has long been in conversation with itself, but as of TotK it feels like it’s no longer on speaking terms.
And the conversation with itself was shaping up to be the best part! "Dedicated to the future with honor to the past" is how I was thinking of it...but you're right about the new games - Nintendo is trying to have their cake and eat it to.
Wind Waker is alive.
and kickin'
everything about _Wind Waker_ is great… except for the actual gameplay. I like the way Link controls, how the combat works, how most of the items work… but while an amazing idea in concept, exploring the Great Sea could just be so boring and tedious and unrewarding, at least after the first couple hours of gameplay… and worst of all, the dungeons are the worst in the series (or rather, of the five classic 3D games). sad.
…and also, I do think the art style sorta mutes and homogenizes the atmosphere of all the locations, but the atmosphere is does create is so darn charming that I can forgive it 👍
Yeah the sea needed more - probably a console limitation rather than a design one. Might be cool to see a new game return to a similar art style but have the game go wild with the art design.
that's a matter of opinion i personally think it has the best game play of classic 3d zelda's
@@jskywalker58 - could you elaborate? what do you like so much about the gameplay?
I think _Wind Waker_ has the lowest finish-to-start ratio for me, because I’ve started it many times, but it’s so one-note that they charm wears off well before the end I’d the game, and I rarely finish it 🤷🏻♂️
uh EXCUSE ME? GET MORE SUBS YESTERDAY!!
?????!