AK-47 vs AR-15 for Bear Defense Part 1

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  • เผยแพร่เมื่อ 14 พ.ย. 2024

ความคิดเห็น • 79

  • @VYBEKAT
    @VYBEKAT 2 หลายเดือนก่อน +14

    I believe Small Arms Solutions covered the AR-15 reliability myth. If i remember correctly, the Army re-used old gunpowder stores that were not calibrated to the cycle timing of the AR-15

    • @infogunvault6920
      @infogunvault6920  2 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      Yes the port pressure and timing was off because they used WWII era ammo instead. Which caused failures to extract, the fouling problem was caused by this ammo.
      He mentioned the book that I used as a source in that video. The primary problem as mentioned was the lack of chrome-plating.
      I probably should have mentioned the ammunition problem as well. While it matters from a historical perspective, it doesn't matter that much for purely practical modern use today.
      His videos are always interesting.
      th-cam.com/video/NYar4Zf8jH8/w-d-xo.htmlfeature=shared

    • @alouiciousjackson5812
      @alouiciousjackson5812 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Also too much calcium carbonate added as a flash suppressant which caused deposits to build up.

  • @stevenmike1878
    @stevenmike1878 2 หลายเดือนก่อน +8

    there are recorded event in 2008 in Alaska where people were tasked with tracking down a really big bear that was wandering into the town and didnt show any signs of fear around people, in alaska the go to rifle is the ar-15. when they were walking the bear charged out of a bush a 10 yards a way so the guy with the ar started quickly started hip firing into the bear. the bear only got a few yards before it was dead, then they realized it was a polar bear.

    • @infogunvault6920
      @infogunvault6920  2 หลายเดือนก่อน +4

      Yes I remember reading about that, what little I could find. The guy said if he had taken the time to aim it would've been too late for him or something similar.

  • @Thechameleonofall
    @Thechameleonofall 2 หลายเดือนก่อน +5

    The issue with the original m16 was that it wasn’t issued with a cleaning kit and the original ammunition contained inadequate powder resulting in failure

    • @infogunvault6920
      @infogunvault6920  2 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      The powder you are referring to had a high level of calcium carbonate in it if I remember correctly. Regardless of lack of the cleaning kit and the calcium carbonate the chambers would still rust and create extraction issues as previously mentioned.

    • @Daniel-du7pv
      @Daniel-du7pv 2 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      It was sabotaged by some officers, they didn’t enjoyed the idea of the new caliber

    • @infogunvault6920
      @infogunvault6920  2 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      @@Daniel-du7pv There was both sabotage and general ignorance.

  • @jacobpresley7112
    @jacobpresley7112 2 หลายเดือนก่อน +4

    i watched the podcast shown in the beggining and it made me rethink how effective bullets can be. have a nice day

    • @infogunvault6920
      @infogunvault6920  2 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      Yes, it was very good. 🙂

  • @mfallen2023
    @mfallen2023 2 หลายเดือนก่อน +7

    The big difference in hunting and defense is we're looking to kill the bear humanely with the former. In the latter, we just need the charging bear/etc to STOP and make it think "this isn't worth pursuing". Either platform COULD work extremely well for defense... I'd probably give the nod to the AR platform just because the recoil is so low that rapid, accurate follow-up's can easily be stacked on the bear. Though anyone well-versed with an AK in 7.62 can probably keep roughly the same pace.
    It just depends on the bear... I've seen a video of a guy that put 5 .454 casull's in the bear and it didn't quit coming until he hit a vital with the 6th and final shot. I've also heard of bears being driven-off with a warning shot in the dirt. So the state of the bear is going to be very important, which is why this topic is a long-standing debate: there is no objective means of measuring how effective x/y/z is going to be at protecting yourself since there is no way to have the same bear, under a controlled stress level, take the same hits in the same locations from different chambering's. Big bore, wide/flat meplat's, traveling at magnum revolver velocities (1300-1800fps) seems to be a good minimum rule of thumb but there are exceptions to every rule.
    Though I think the "right" answer to this question is AR15... chambered in 450BM or .50 Beo, lol. Mainly because bears attack so quickly you're probably not getting off more than 3 shots no matter the caliber/chambering. If you've got time to mag-dump into a bear, I greatly question who the real aggressor is in that situation...

    • @infogunvault6920
      @infogunvault6920  2 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      Basically any caliber or amount of damage could make a bear stop and think whether it should keep charging you. Bear spray largely works on the "psychological stop" principle.
      The determination or the amount of anger the bear has is ultimately irrelevant if you understand how to physically incapacitate the bear.
      The same applies for defense against humans as well.
      I would not resign myself to "it depends on the bear" because that assumes the bear is what determines the outcome. More specifically, the situation is largely what determines the outcome. The situation involves many things that are variable including your awareness, your weapon, if there are other people with you etc.
      To say that situations are variable and therefore there is no one weapon that is preferable for most or all situations doesn't make sense to me.
      It's like saying that one car is not preferred to others because not all driving conditions are the same. All wheel drive or four wheel drive is preferred in variable conditions because it minimizes the effect of low traction. Likewise physical incapacitation through broken shoulder bones minimizes the ability of the bear to do pretty much anything.

    • @mfallen2023
      @mfallen2023 2 หลายเดือนก่อน +3

      @@infogunvault6920 I'm not saying I resign myself to the bear's mood, I'm saying always assume the worst as you're never going to know... The video topic is theoretical, as was my comment, but I'm not going to be the one testing these theories... Always assume you'll have 1 shot, as my "close calls" with brown's would have afforded me MAYBE one/two shots had they not been bluff's, whether it was a .22 pistol or .500Smith.
      It's why I'm not a proponent for 10mm carry in brown bear country: too light, and having a 15+rd magazine means little when there's a good chance you won't even have it unholstered by the time Bruno's on you.
      I carry .44mag for light days (ie black bear country).480 Ruger or .454 casull when I know it's rough country (ie "The Bob" in Montana or any fishing spots in AK) and I always have a '95 .45-70 Guide Gun on me if at all possible. They're light, short, and probably the easiest long gun to carry in rough country that has enough ass to deal with Grizzly.
      When elk hunting in areas with high brown bear populations I tend to hunt with a .338winmag instead of my beloved 7mm rem mag, just in case. But I still have a big bore magnum on me regardless.
      AR's and AK's are great tools, but not in bear country, especially if you're alone. But I'd rather have one than nothing.

    • @infogunvault6920
      @infogunvault6920  2 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      @@mfallen2023 As always I respect differing opinions.
      So what about the 10mm makes it too light or otherwise not effective enough for bears?

    • @mfallen2023
      @mfallen2023 2 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      @@infogunvault6920 It's too light because it's too light... No room to seat bullets out for longer/heavier pills with a passable sectional density (highest I've seen is 220gr which is under a 0.200 SD) and not enough case capacity to heft it out of the mildly powerful range for handguns. For context, prior to bonded/monolithic projectiles coming on the scene, it used to be that the minimum sectional density for deer hunters was a 0.22x, which is why the 150gr .30 cal's and 100gr .243win have always been so ubiquitous. So we're clear on sectional densities between common bear defense rounds:
      10mm: 190gr = 0.170, 220gr = 0.196
      .44: 305 gr = 0.237, 340gr = 0.264.
      .45: 325gr = 0.227, 360gr = 0.252
      .475: 400gr = 0.253
      And all of these are loaded to velocities equal to/often far greater than the hottest 220gr 10mm, so they're going to penetrate dangerous game much better...
      These are the same reasons Tim Sundles, (who has killed more bears than you and I have ever seen in situ) says the 10mm is not a real dangerous game cartridge, and that due to overwhelming popularity he begrudgingly created a "dangerous game" load for 10mm. Called it a "compromise cartridge"
      From one of his articles on stopping a dangerous animal attack:
      "Stopping a bear/moose/bison attack is far different than hunting them. When hunting, you get to choose the shot at your leisure, without the critter often knowing you are around. So when hunting you can use smaller calibers and make up for smaller calibers with carefully timed and placed shots. However, when you are under attack, you have no time to think or to plan. The animal and you are both adrenaline charged.
      You have to take the shot offered by circumstance, and if you make a poor hit you'll be glad to have a lot of power on hand to make up for the lack of perfect bullet placement." - while discussing his handgun of choice for dangerous game, a .500 Linebaugh.
      But my reasoning is not just a call to authority: I've handgun hunted with close to 2 dozen different handgun chambering's. At one point I was living down south on family property, and was able to take as many feral hogs as I could shoot as per the landowner's ability to protect their property from invasive species. I'm not talking 1 or 2 here/there, packs of a dozen or more constantly roamed the property. You could get out there with an AR10 and drop 4-5 in a couple minute span if you were a couple hundred yards out and running a can...
      They can get well into black bear sizes, and as they mature the boars get this armored plate thing of hard something: not bone, but it's almost as hard to get through as bone.
      I used a 10mm Super Redhawk quite a bit, with a barrel far longer than what most will have in their Glock/Springfield/M&P/etc. (Not that it really matters as 10mm doesn't have enough case capacity to take great advantage of longer barrels... I might have gotten 75fps more with a 7.5" than what you'd see in a 5.5")
      If you hit them in the head 10mm is lights out. If you take a broadside shot through a shoulder it'll break the shoulder, but I rarely saw it carry through and break the opposite shoulder; just not enough energy. Still kills them if you collapse their lungs/heart, but it's right at the edge of being just enough gun to humanely kill them. I've used 9mm and that's too little power on the bigger/older hogs for going through the shoulder.
      And these are bones/hide/fat that is nowhere near as thick/dense as a healthy, mature brown bear. Yet when I'd use a .44mag or .454 or .475 Linebaugh (or 480Ruger.. they're pretty much the same round. You can run .480 in a .475L, just like you can run .45 colt in a .454) hitting them at the same distances with more than twice the energy of the 10mm, they break both shoulders and keep trucking through. I've shot one walking straight toward me through the skull, all the way through the body length-wise, shattering the rear hip, and still passing clean through. That was a moderately-loaded .454 casull (probably 325gr as that's what I was casting at the time)
      And I'm talking homemade hardcasts that I cast and oil quenched myself... When hunting nuisance species IS your practice, you can't afford to load expensive bonded or monolithic projectiles.
      So I've seen how much damage these rounds can do on dozens upon dozens of animals, and 10mm, just like .357mag, is pretty much the minimum for a hunting round on MEDIUM game. Hitting a hog with a 10mm vs a hot .44 or .45 is like the difference between hitting an animal with a .223 and a .308. They're just in a different league. THAT is why I say 10mm is not a brown bear defense caliber. As a backup to a long gun? Sure. If you're with others that have proper brown bear arms, sure. But as THE firearm one has to defend themselves it just leaves you no margin of error: hit the skull in 1-2 shots (as you're probably not going to have time for any more) otherwise you'll be in a wrestling match... Same is true of ANY handgun round, accept you have a better chance of that "miss" busting through the shoulder and collapsing a lung or another vital that is otherwise shielded.

    • @mfallen2023
      @mfallen2023 2 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      @@infogunvault6920 And yes, I know people have used it to good effect. They've also killed brown bear with 9mm, .45acp hardball, and even .22lr, but no one claims these are up to the task of brown bear defense.
      No handgun is "enough" for brown. But some are a lot closer to enough than others...

  • @Evasion.Survival.Alaska
    @Evasion.Survival.Alaska 2 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    YT eats everything I put here..

    • @infogunvault6920
      @infogunvault6920  2 หลายเดือนก่อน

      YT is extra weird today, I can't even read my response to you.
      I just wanted to edit it for clarification.

    • @Evasion.Survival.Alaska
      @Evasion.Survival.Alaska 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@infogunvault6920 If you email me, ill fill you in.

    • @infogunvault6920
      @infogunvault6920  2 หลายเดือนก่อน

      I'm sorry buy youtube won't let me post my email address here.
      Go to my community tab, and read my most recent post.
      Then comment back and let me know you got my email.

  • @LowIQinHQ
    @LowIQinHQ 2 หลายเดือนก่อน +6

    AKM

  • @revvyishonisd5027
    @revvyishonisd5027 2 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    The largest polar bear ever killed got got with a 22lr. But still. Overkill is underrated.

    • @infogunvault6920
      @infogunvault6920  2 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Ahh, the "there is no kill like overkill" logic.

  • @PerceptionVsReality333
    @PerceptionVsReality333 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Either will work with FMJs but I prefer something in 308 FMJs & semi auto.

  • @infogunvault6920
    @infogunvault6920  2 หลายเดือนก่อน

    I understand the preference for semi-auto and .308, but why FMJ?

  • @uberfalcon1965
    @uberfalcon1965 2 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    The dangerous game series have opened my eyes on what can be effective.

    • @infogunvault6920
      @infogunvault6920  2 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      I was thinking about something yesterday. The fact that conventional wisdom is what most everyone assumes to be true without asking for any evidence to back it up.
      This is essentially the opposite of rational/logical thought and the scientific method.
      Operating without making assumptions is the key to an accurate understanding of the world. When you accept this, most of your previous understandings of the world quickly fall away because they were simply unproven.
      There is a great quote from Christopher Hitchens that goes along the lines of "That which can be stated without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence."

  • @ethan5.56
    @ethan5.56 2 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    I’d feel confident with either platform. Both capable of delivering the goods with proper shot placement

    • @ethan5.56
      @ethan5.56 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@iRedacted 👌😂😂 please tell how many bear you’ve taken oh great one

  • @Zane-It
    @Zane-It 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

    I'm left handed so i prefer the AK over the AR. I can rack the bolt and operate the safety with out taking my finger off the trigger. AR platforms are the opposite for me.

  • @hairydogstail
    @hairydogstail 2 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    The AR platform can be a very reliable system or a real turd depending on the manufacturer or the build quality..The first gauges I use is a barrel function gauge and minimum go head space gauge..If the chamber is wrong, the entire rifle is compromised..I could write a book on other parts and build necessities that are important with either platform, but your take on the difference between the AK and AR is spot on....
    I'm one of the few who actually lives in Grizzly country and carries an AK and AR for protection..I started carrying an AK back in the 1980's and now carry my own built AR in 300 black out..Studies have found even a 9mm hand gun has better results than pepper spray..Much to the surprise of many, bears are like people and don't like to be shot either..
    Protection from a bear is different than hunting them..Most bear encounters will be close and fast..Being able to run your rifle fast while facing a charging bear requires different firearms and training than hunting..
    Both rifle platforms are an excellent choice for bear, moose, mountain lion, wolves or the 2 legged kind of threats that could be encountered in the woods..

    • @infogunvault6920
      @infogunvault6920  2 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      And before people had AR-15s there was some people that carried .30-30s for bear defense. I believe there was one person who was nicknamed ".30-30 Jack" because of this.

  • @ivankalash2696
    @ivankalash2696 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Binary trigger in 16 inch barrel dissipator build with drum mag lol
    (That or a shotgun with an extended tube)

    • @infogunvault6920
      @infogunvault6920  2 หลายเดือนก่อน

      LOL! I wonder if you could fit both a BRI sabot and steel ball bearings (buckshot) inside of a 3.5" shell. That would be pretty cool from a Stoeger M3500.

  • @LMGConnoisseur
    @LMGConnoisseur 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

    thanks for the video man, im really excited for what you got in store for part 2. Up here in Canada, we don't have Ak's nor Ar's currently, but we do have have a LOT of sks's and type 81's. And the type 81 which i use is kinda the closest thing to an Ak that we got currently, basically just a short stroke AK. I would say that i am more partial to the AK but mainly because i don't have any experience with and Ar's, but talking to my friends down south, they're telling me they have that same level of trust with their Ar's so i bet its good. We're still getting the Chinese ammo so the prices are not bad and i can shoot a lot of em, almost exclusively steel-core ammo and i don't have any problems with it even for bear defense, though i admit its not exactly ideal. Ive shot a lot of dead trees and logs with the steel-core stuff and it has remarkable penetration, thought it probably doesnt correlate with shooting a real bear or any other animal. still very fun

    • @infogunvault6920
      @infogunvault6920  2 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      Glad you liked it! You guys have the cheap Russian ammo available too right?

    • @LMGConnoisseur
      @LMGConnoisseur 2 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      @infogunvault6920 not really. We, alongside the US, banned all russian imports, including ammo

  • @waterishdrake8693
    @waterishdrake8693 หลายเดือนก่อน

    If you ever find yourself in bear country and are unlucky enough to run into a bear, don’t use a gun! Guns are bad! Simply apologize to the animal on behalf of all humans and tell it you’re on its side!!! The bear will recognize your an ally and leave you alone! On some occasions it might even offer you some honey.

    • @infogunvault6920
      @infogunvault6920  หลายเดือนก่อน

      Ahh! The "bear ally" approach. I've heard that just wearing a red shirt and nothing else just like Winne the Pooh also helps.
      The downside is that a park ranger will arrest you and call you a weirdo, then you and can't live with your bear friends in the woods.

  • @donnharper8815
    @donnharper8815 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

    What caliber AR ? .556, not my choice. Nothing smaller than 7.62 would be my choice. You can get an AR in many calibers.
    Remember a Bear hibernates, they can soak up a lot of damage and keep going. Maybe an AR carbine in 10mm.

    • @infogunvault6920
      @infogunvault6920  2 หลายเดือนก่อน +3

      Why 10mm when you could get an actual rifle caliber?

    • @baneofbanes
      @baneofbanes 2 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      Doesn’t want to use 5.56 for being too weak, so suggests a pistol caliber.

    • @donnharper8815
      @donnharper8815 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@baneofbanes I should be clear, 10mm would be the lightest I would carry.
      Personally I would have 10 mm side arm, and a lever action 45/70. There's plenty that carry 10mm up there in Alaska.

    • @baneofbanes
      @baneofbanes 2 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      @@donnharper8815 yah that doesn’t change my point at all. If you’re opposed to 5.56 why would you be ok with a weaker cartridge?

  • @josephchatfield3983
    @josephchatfield3983 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Well either one of those calibers would be fine against bears if you were using armor-piercing rounds.

    • @infogunvault6920
      @infogunvault6920  2 หลายเดือนก่อน

      How many bears have you seen that were wearing armor?

  • @andrewyegge6018
    @andrewyegge6018 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Thanks for the video, lots of great information.

  • @danielaramburo7648
    @danielaramburo7648 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Ak would be my choice. Dependable on extreme weather, and plenty power.

  • @Montross4440
    @Montross4440 2 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    Mass and shot placement

    • @infogunvault6920
      @infogunvault6920  2 หลายเดือนก่อน

      I would emphasize shot placement (via weapon familiarity and understanding of anatomy), expansion (a small wound from a FMJ is not good enough), and penetration (mass by itself doesn't always result in more penetration if the projectile comes apart).

  • @lostpyper
    @lostpyper 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

    AR10

    • @infogunvault6920
      @infogunvault6920  2 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Just to clarify, the question I was originally asked was specifically about AKM vs AR-15 if I recall correctly. So that was what I covered.

  • @RNagy-ke4se
    @RNagy-ke4se 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

    I’d go with an AR in .450 bushmaster or 500 auto max for bigger game

    • @infogunvault6920
      @infogunvault6920  2 หลายเดือนก่อน

      The original question that the one subscriber had was AKs vs AR-15s and I took that to mean the most common variations of those rifles (7.62x39 and 5.56).
      If I was talking about the less common variations of the weapons I would have also mentioned the AK shotguns as well as .458 Bushmaster, .458 SOCOM, etc.

  • @jefferyboring4410
    @jefferyboring4410 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

    I love em both but if u forget to oil that ar15 it’ll not function for long. The ak is just more forgiving. That silly forgotten weapons video is a click bait set up. U can’t close up the ar then claim because of that it’s better. The ar must must stay oiled if I forget it jams up every time. I think I need to mount a
    Oil bottle on the sling permanently.

    • @infogunvault6920
      @infogunvault6920  2 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      I don't know, that sounds like something is wrong with your rifle. The military arms channel did a demonstration where they shot thousands of a rounds through a rifle without cleaning it.
      Do you happen to have a manganese-phosphated bolt carrier group?

    • @baneofbanes
      @baneofbanes 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

      What? You don’t need to be constantly lubing an AR for it operate dude.
      You have no clue what you’re talking about.