The First Wives Club is something I find incredibly detestable on top of not being funny. I don't have any sympathy for the protagonists because they're petulant, insufferable harpies with co-morbid BPD+NPD who just want to exact disproportionate retribution on their exes to fund their crisis center as a vanity project to boost their own egos like a lot of women who get dumped by their husbands for their mistresses. It was a fitting end for the author of the book it was adapted from to die from a botched plastic surgery procedure after spending her professional career making vapid critiques of society's female beauty standards through the tripe she had published.
One of my favorite authors described revenge as something that "gets your soul sticky" and I think about that a lot. Revenge doesn't make things better, particularly. It doesn't usually right any wrongs. Just makes you feel a different kind of awful, potentially for a lot longer.
If you like the idea of restorative justice, I recommend the TV series Leverage. It's essentially a heist-a-week crime show with the premise that the ensemble protagonists are the best thieves in the world who, in the pilot, score the "buy a private island and retire money" payout, so decide to get together to use their talents against the rich and powerful untouchable by conventional justice. There's also elements of found family and personal redemption (these people were not the Good Guys for most of their lives and are now having to confront that as they become the Good Guys). The show can be pretty formulaic, but so is the heist genre by its nature. And it's just a fun power anti-capitalist fantasy of being able to con the billionaires out of their power and into accountability for their actions.
That sounds fun as hell! Can I ask what level of violence/gore it is? I'm squeamish and would hate to get invested in something I won't be able to finish.
@@emilyrln It's primarily a heist show. They're not going around killing the baddies, they're conning them and robbing them and exposing their corruption. The bad guy is defeated not by getting shot or stabbed, but by losing all their money or having their secrets exposed or getting framed for a crime similar to the one they're already committing or stuff like that. A few times the baddies to end up dead, it's never on-screen that I can remember and it's more commonly someone saying "I don't think we'll be seeing anymore of that guy after his mob friends find out..." in the episode wrap-up. To go into more specifics: There's usually a fight scene or two, but it's about Jackie Chan levels of violence. Lots of punching and kicking and use of the environment to smack people into stuff, but I can't recall more than a trickle of blood from the corner of the mouth or dripping from the hairline. There are a few times over the series where people get shot/stabbed, but it's again broadcast TV levels of violence where there's a red splotch on their shirt and that's pretty much it for "gore".
@@emilyrln it's PG, according to the parental guidance of IMDb, no nudity/sex and slight violence, alcohol/drug use, scary scenes. It's mostly spy stuff and mind games, nothing like a CSI, for example
Personally my two favorite revenge stories are The Locked Tomb and The Princess Bride. The Locked Tomb because the message is that no amount of revenge will ever undo the fact that it happened in the first place and wasting your time trying to find that will only scar you deeper. The Princess Bride because Inigo focusing on revenge for fifteen years got him nowhere and it was the friendships he built and the skills he loved that actually led him not just to his revenge, but onto the life afterwards. It was only because of Fezzik that he found Rugen and because of Westley that he had a life after Rugen was dead. Yes, he got his revenge, but the only reason it happened and it was enough was because he didn't let it completely consume him.
Abby and Ellie kind of serve as foils in the their revenge plot lines. Abby kind takes the mutual aid route when she helps those kids and takes care of Lev. She had her "vibes based justice" but she found real solace in helping others and being around those she cared about. Ellie cant get her revenge but has people she cares about and can help. But instead she goes after Abby anyways in search of what she already has.
Sure, but the game makes the odd choice of never having Abby reckon with what she’s done to Joel. There’s no point with Lev where she’s like “Was he like this?” And a subsequent “oh shit, I’m just like he was.” For a game about cycles of violence, it’s very uneven in its storytelling
I disagree that the player being able to turn TLOU2 off means that they have a say in whether its violence takes place. That's like saying that a reader has narrative agency in the plot of a book because they're capable of closing it at any time. Or an audience has agency over a play because they can get up and leave. Although you don't get to see the full story, that doesn't mean that the story ended where you left off.
honestly the hospital section in tlou2 was amazing storytelling and forcing the player to be complicit in this gruesome act of ellie is key, as it kind of implies that she too had already lost control of herself in the act of revenge.
Sure, but it’s a pretty hamfisted way to implicate the player in all that, especially when the game forces you to partake in the violence or otherwise soft lock yourself out of the story. MGS3 does a better job of conveying the same point by making the consequences of your violence come later.
@@AM13226 It's a criticism that applies to a few other games, trying to guilt trip and say a lot of yous in a story the player doesn't actually make choices in. I think Fallout: The Frontier may be the worst example I know of in that regard.
“Vibes Based Justice” This. This is what I watch your videos for. I never know what I’m in for going in but I’m always amazed at how much I’ve gotten on the way out. I’ve supported you on Patreon for years and yet I’m still continually impressed by your work. I can’t wait to find out where we’re gong next.
I think The Crow works so well is because it's original comic story, was written by a man who was actually grieving the loss of his girlfriend he lost due to a drunk driver.
Yes I've always liked the first Pumpkinhead because Pumpkinhead only went after those he was assigned to go after so it wasn't killing for the sake of healing like you had in a lot of 1980s slasher movies. You'll have to let it run its course did you think it was going to be easy all neat and painless.
TLOU2 is my favorite game of all time. It is so rich in story, character, and its messaging. I love how it withholds the context until the right moment. Ellie's motivation for sparing Abby, to me, is for a variety of reasons. There isn't a single reason the player or even Ellie can name. That is often true to life when we have a desire to do something and cannot exactly pinpoint why. Sometimes what informs a decision can be too complex to articulate but there's a pull toward it that is undeniable.
I was deeply moved by that story, even more so than the first. I found a deep love for it that grew so slowly I didn't realize how much it meant to me until I was sobbing over the ending credits music. As an added bonus, it was so lovely to have a trans character with agency who was able to be respected and loved and who wasn't killed off in the end despite the dangerous setting. That got me too
@@legendswarble2845 I am not a big crier but part two got me a handful of times, lol. When I got to the credits, I was a mess. I couldn't stop thinking about the game for weeks. I love Lev! I really don't appreciate when some people reduce him to his suffering when he is so much more. He has a dry sense of humor, he is brave and loyal, tough, and he empathizes with people incredibly even after seeing the worst that man has to offer. Great character that brought so much humanity to a very dark tale.
I have never been good at video games, but I love watching people play them. I watched a playthrough of TLOU2 and it was an incredible story experience. I agree there isn't 'a reason' for why Ellie made that decision. It's almost allegorical; the vengeance and violence was senseless, so too was her abrupt decision to end it.
i appreciate your analysis of tlou2. i always found ellie going after abby that final time incredibly frustrating given all she was sacrificing to do it, but now i see it can be read as needed closure to ellie’s story. i also like hate to say it but i think the idea that abby was a ‘non traditional’ built woman who killed their video game man and who they didnt get to brutally murder in the end was a major sticking point for alot of fans of the first game.
@@botanicalitus4194 What if vengeance isn't possible? Such as, the person who wronged you isn't available, through incarceration, death, or just can't be located.
You are one of the most important of the contemporary philosophers. Thank you for sharing your wisdom. What I thought was going to be a light (ish) film analysis, had me in tears. You bring so much to our attention, so much to the table. Serge, you make the world better. Thank you.
Talking about important contemporary philosophers and this video’s topic, I just cannot resist to share that video: th-cam.com/video/smQsfNw_7V4/w-d-xo.html (duh, it‘s an important contemporary philosopher‘s take on justice. With cats or whatever.)
literally like the game stops if you don't want to do it, that is precisely why it works, you *choose* to keep playing to see what happens. you could just go watch someone play if you just want the basic story but you _choose to keep playing_ this is sort of why Jessica Jones S02 didn't work for me but that's a different story. anyway, yeah, it's always so funny to me that people said you don't have a choice in that moment.
@@James.Stark.Ben.Edition Sure, but that's not the only choice you can make, and it completely clashed with ND's style of storytelling, which is trope-based and well-crafted. MGS 3 did the same thing while also giving player control AND giving us a good character-based story. That's the true power of video games as art, when it acknowledges the player input and rolls with that.
@@lman318 yeah I've seen the Naked Jacob video too, but here's the thing: if you didn't agree with Joel's choices in the ending of the first game, you also had a choice to turn it off. that was a choice. most people who played on just happened to like the character enough to see where it went or to defend him. The whole point of this game was to see how far you could push your empathy, by making characters actually make choices that might stretch your backing of them and taking control away from the player during that sequence would have made the themes run much more hollow. in a game about retribution rather than justice, should we not be made to experience that feeling of wanting retribution, of wanting revenge for what happened? if you don't agree with Ellie there, that's fine, you're a normal person but if you liked Joel like so much of the fanbase did, you probably at least understood her need for revenge, for closure and most likely, you were feeling it too. that's why the Abby sections work so well because they actually force you to empathize with someone you hated and it ties your success, your need to see the story unfold with wanting to survive and succeed at the game thus making you literally be in her shoes, especially with the 'rivalry' between the WLF and the Seraphites serving another example of how those things tear us apart. You'd at least understand Ellie's choice, just like you would've understood Joel's choice to kill all those people in the hospital. If you didn't, that's fine, I hated Joel after the first game because he denied Ellie any agency in the situation but I understood why he needed to do it to get closure. I hated Ellie for slaughtering so many people like she does but I understand why she needed to do it to get closure. She literally became Joel pre-TLOU when he was with Tommy just with a bone to pick. Abby became Joel post-TLOU by the end of the game. It might not have resonated with you but that's more likely a you thing. And the choice works precisely because it's a naughtydog game. If it was a telltale game or something where you could choose the story or make choices, nobody would actually feel the full weight of all that crushing pain and bitterness and anger that drives Ellie to where she ends up by the end. By continuing to play, it's an implicit agreement that you want to see what happens.
@@James.Stark.Ben.Edition But that's the achilles heel in ND's storytelling here. That came at the end of the game, whereas they completely start you off on a bad footing with Abby here, only for you to play a lot of her story afterwards. It would have been way easier for players to empathize with her if the plot was told in parallel instead of stopping the plot to explain all of her backstory (not all of which was important). Not only that, there isn't an empathizing moment where Abby has to reckon with what she's done. No "maybe Joel was more complicated," no "I fucked up," nothing. I get that's the point in the game, but it can be both the point AND not actually work. Her taking care of Lev doesn't actually take away what she did, and ND refused to reckon with that for some reason.
@@lman318 I wrote like over two thousand words going into detail on why that's a bad idea but the comment accidentally got deleted so here's the basics because honestly I cannot be bothered to retype all that: 1. Asking the game's stories to run parallel isn't just asking for structural differences, it's asking for a different game entirely. The way the game handles the themes it wants to is built on getting you to experience the emotions they want you to, to marinate in a character's psyche for an extended period of time and to jump between perspective is asking for an entirely different story because you could never get the same visceral reactions if you didn't experience the story as you do now. The story is basically perfect in making the audience experience exactly what it wants them to experience. It's just the people assume games must be ludologically gratifying. The game is made to be a miserable experience because all that the path Ellie is on brings is misery. Abby's journey in this game is literally Joel's journey in the first game: after losing someone they loved because they were murdered, they lost touch with their humanity, slowly diving deep into the worst aspects of themselves and alienating basically everyone around them until a young child shows up that makes them reconnect with their humanity and understand why life is worth living and how we move on from the horrific shit we suffer. If their stories ran parallel, you wouldn't experience the emotions naughtydog wanted you to feel. If anything, you probably just get whiplash or emotional exhaustion jumping from Abby's story to Ellie's constantly. The game is meant to be a miserable experience and if the game was structured by alternating between Abby and Ellie, it would be a fundamentally different game telling a fundamentally different story with fundamentally different themes. That's not trying to improve what ND set out to do, that's asking for something else entirely. 2. Abby does not need to reflect on how Joel might have been more complicated or anything of the sort. That's Ellie's journey to take. Abby has already had her revenge and it did not bring her peace. She still has nightmares and has a miserable life until she finds a purpose and a reason to live in Lev. The only way she actually heals and gets closure is to find another reason to keep living, to reconnect with her humanity and love another person wholeheartedly instead of chasing down the person who's wronged her in need for revenge. Abby's story is there to tell you that even if Ellie killed Abby, she wouldn't know peace. She wouldn't get closure. She couldn't move on. The only thing killing Abby would do is take her away from Lev, like Joel was taken from Ellie. The only way for Ellie to be happy again, to have closure, is to move on, find another reason to live, which is why the ending with the guitar is like that. She literally leaves her last connection to Joel to move on and discover what life has in store for her after this instead of focusing on trying to get revenge as if it would bring Joel back. 3. The Abby flashbacks were all necessary to draw parallels between Joel in TLOU and Ellie in this game. She evolves like Joel did and we needed to see the extent of that, how she was like Joel and how her quest for revenge was similar to Ellie's and how it brought her no joy. If we just heard about it or saw it chronologically, half the game wouldn't have the impact it does. If we knew what Joel and Ellie's last conversation was in the beginning, it would make the ending be less emotionally effective and affecting. If we saw how Abby was driving away everyone before we saw what the need for revenge and closure did to Ellie, we'd be working our way backwards in drawing an empathic line between the two characters, and that would be even more weird if we knew that she killed Joel. Also, if that scene of her killing him came at the end, it would be even worse because it'd be reduced to pure shock value as the crazy twist at the end instead of something fueling the story to deliver a touching, artistic message about healing from grief an trauma and pain and breaking the cycles of violence and protecting your heart and innocence and your humanity in a world that constantly seeks to rob it from you. It would also lead to a different story entirely like I said. there was a lot more here but I forgot some of what I said and some feels inorganic to retype now because the moment has passed so yeah. anyway, you're asking for an entirely different game instead of trying to improve what ND wanted to do. that's your prerogative I suppose but that doesn't mean TLOU2 is bad. It just means it didn't resonate for you like it did for so many others. The choices it made in making you actually experience the emotions that the characters do by holding you captive in their perspective is literally the best choice the game made lol.
I really love your point about morality in stories, I think it's way too easy to fall in the trap of moralizing and wanting to moralize our stories, when it should be more about how we as an audience understand (or try to understand) actions and emotions within stories.
I don't know how you ended up in my algorithm, but I'm certainly pleased you did. It's obvious how much you enjoy the work you put into your channel after watching only one upload. Thought provoking and well produced.
I want the algorithm to know just how mad I am that this didn't show up at the top of my Subscription feed on the day it came out. However that said, my Saturday is now vastly improved.
Your overarching point at the start, regarding vengeance and closure (or lack thereof) is how I would have loved to see Anakin's initial fall to the Dark Side in Episode 2 - namely, the slaughter of the Tuskan tribe - be done. Where he gets to Padme, relates what happened out there... and then explained that he feels *nothing* in the wake of it. No remorse, but also no satisfaction. As viewers, we would see it as his realization that vengeance is empty - but *he* would interpret it through the lens of the Jedi's meditative teachings, where they caution against extreme emotions, and thus he begins to blame them for his not feeling better after avenging his mother's death. It would have made his descent into the Dark Side a *lot* more resonant, and a better cautionary tale.
A lot of the backlash to the Last of Us II comes from the fact that it's a challenging narrative that directly confronts the player. I don't think a lot of players were ready for that. Now, there are surely some decent criticisms out there of it but the fact that a lot of people just hated the game because it made them uncomfortable with their own thoughts can't be overlooked.
Absolutely, a realisation that caught me off guard and one I like to hit people with when they complain about the story is that Abby is a better person than Ellie. The narrative makes that pretty clear to the players and people who refused to dig beyond "Abby killed Joel and I want revenge" hate it because you can't deny it.
@@XTooManyShowsX I do that with the fact that Ellie wanted to give up her life to provide the vaccine. Part of what makes Joel less sympathetic is that he denied Ellie agency and put his trauma above the entire world.
@@surgeland9084 I agree, i loved Joel but when he was killed my first logical thought after the sadness was "So what did he do?" because he was a pretty awful person and did awful things.
@@fleacythesheepgirl What boredom and bad writing? if you refuse to engage with complex media beyond using poor interpreting skills thats on you, but thats ok because media would truly be boring if it was all made to be accessible by all people everyone.
no because finally!! someone who loves the tlou2 story as much as i do. because the pure emotion and grief and its irrationality is exactly what i love about it! it was very good hearing it so clearly articulated!
My revenge awakening was the korean drama The Penthouse, cause the protagonist was strong and her refusal to cross the line to get her just revenge left her vulnerable, but she found a way. Next, I've consumed korean and Japanese revenge stories and I have to say, they're the experts
I know I've said this more than a few times on Twitter and such, but I wanted to comment for engagement purposes. I love the First Wives Club and am so glad I gave it a go after seeing you recommend it. I've shown it to a few friends now because I love it so much. Thank you for sharing this joy with us lol
The thing about The Last of Us is how in both stories, the further it goes along, the less anyone talking about them feels the need to bring up the zombies.
I am a person who has mixed opinions on The Last of Us Part 2. I feel there is a stark dissonance between the story of the game and the gameplay. Where the story is anti-revenge it feels strange that while you play the game, Ellie mows down hundreds of seemingly innocent faceless goons (not technically faceless I know the game has a mechanic where the human enemies have names, but I digress). It's the ol' "I killed all the villain's henchmen, then hesitate when I finally face the villain". I wouldn't be surprised if in Part 3 we follow a character who is the kid of faceless henchman #264 who is seeking revenge on Ellie.
well tbf all the enemies in the game attack you first. yea she couldve just not went on a revenge quest and not kill all those people but lore wise wolves attack tresspassers no matter what their intentions might be. they dont take into account that a person couldve just wandered in. they just assume them as the enemy which like cant really blame them but still. the ellie vs abby fight is one of the rare instances in both games where the protag attacks a person that woulntve caused them harm if they did nothing.
Always happy to see one of your videos pop up in my notifications! Also, have you ever heard of the book "The Faceless Old Woman Who Secretly Lives in Your Home"? It's written by the Welcome to Night Vale people and has a really interesting perspective on revenge and the lengths it can drive someone to
a friend loaned us the DVD for Pumpkinhead not too long ago and we were just expecting another campy 80s slasher flick, having never heard of it, but were surprised at how good it actually was? It definitely holds up if you're a horror fan but on the fence about giving it a try
Great vid! Love the notion you mentioned, that we don't need to be told why a character did something, it just needs to be internally logical, within the world that was built (you explained it better).
I have to be honest, I don't think "of course you have a choice, you can turn the game off" is a very compelling point. If my only options are "continue along the preset path the game has decided for me" or "completely drop this piece of media that I spent $60+ on" that isn't really much of a choice -- it's definitely not a fair one, at any rate ...I was going to leave a longer comment talking about good ways to implement choice in video games that feel meaningful, and bring up a bunch of different examples... but I really don't wanna leave a whole essay in the comments -- especially bc it would make me seem more upset than I actually am lmao TL;DR I don't really agree with you about TLOU2 but I always appreciate hearing your thoughts! You got me intrigued enough about Pumpkinhead that I skipped the spoilers and I'm going to try and watch it soon!
Why, Serge???!!! Why would you put that seen with Ellie and Joel at the end??!!! 😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭 Haven't seen Pumpkinhead, but I love the other two stories. The First Wives Club was a favorite movie of mine and my sister's that we would watch over and over again(along with Big Business and Death Becomes Her), and though I love The Last of Us, it really raked me over my emotional coals. The fact that you went through that four times is amazing because I think once is about all I can stand. Thank you for another great story essay! ^_^
My favourite revenge story is Berserk, because about half way through he goes "Wait this isn't working" and turns around and does something positive with his life instead.
I'd love to hear your take on Avatar the Last Airbender and how it handles ideas of justice and revenge! Maybe not perfect, but jesus christ is it good
Please make a video about unquestionably leftist films being interpreted through pro left lenses regarding A Bug’s Life I’m so deeply curious to hear your extensive thoughts on this now
Love your insightful and philosophical studies on media. Thank you for another wonderfully interesting video. Whatever may interest you to talk about, I am eager to listen and contemplate. Great work 👏
20:38 "I mean they shot you on sight, didn't they?" The immediate redirection of the guys's flashlight as soon as she says this and his disposition turns from one of questioning to resolution as he turned away is very powerful. Didn't need to see him or his expression, but the flashlight telegraphed his body's response. I never played these games since I sobbed uncontrollably at the intro to the first game and never picked it up again, but it looks interesting. Too bad I'll never, ever be able to play a game where I torture someone. You said I can turn off the game? I can also never pick it up.
The think the only thing I can criticise about this video is your point at 17:12, where you say people were annoyed at not getting a choice in whether to torture or not. I think people were more annoyed that the game was seemingly chastising them for something they had no choice in. It's like the game is trying to show moral superiority, when it offers no possible alternative. There was some comic ages ago which had something similar, about the game forcing you to kill a dog, and then trying to make you feel bad for something that completely halted your progress. I understand that for Ellie, there is no choice. But as someone playing the game, with how they handle the aftermath, it just feels pompous. And, in fairness, this has been done better. Lisa: The Painful has a section where you decide whether to kill the protagonist's father or leave him be, and even if you choose spare him, the protagonist tries to kill him anyway. Because it was never your choice. It was his. I don't know. Maybe I'm misinterpreting the point TLoU2 is trying to make. I might be just be illustrating your claim at 27:05, or even gone in a full circle and supported your point at 17:12. Regardless, great video, hope the film is going well, have a nice day
To me the key to The Crow is it's complete sincerity, which is part of what makes it so cathartic. I think that's something these stories have too. All those cop-type on a rampage type revenge stories have a cynicism to them.There is a lot more to my love of the Crow than that, and someday I'll make that essay, but sincerity is the heart of it.
I think circumstances of how the characters were brought into the revenge vibe is a huge factor as to how the revenge forms. The first Wives Club form of revenge being productive could be tied to how they were brought into the vibe for revenge, there is an element of empathy at the core of it because they were directly brought in by a death of a friend but not the focus of their revenge. Something the other two obviously do not have, Last of Us part 2 in particular is all tied up with Ellies own issues with Joel over the events of the first game. Perhaps a factor that puts you off the revenge part of many films is they often put in some sort of artificial gap between the act that sparks it and the eventual act of revenge. The person seeking revenge is often put in a coma or injured so badly they end up spending weeks/months/years out of the picture and then come back. This often turning the revenge aspect of the story into something else to kind of justify the revenge as something else . if the target has since moved on drastically the more interesting part of the story often heavily outweighs the actual revenge Gangs of New York comes to mind for me. There is also oddly a lot of revenge stories that involve the villain taking children or similar of the lead (mask of zorro, Arcane) and this sometimes changes the whole dynamic greatly. And in a bad revenge film the gap in time often highlights how little the main character has changed from the inciting incident. So there whole revenge can sometimes feel stunted?
I also really enjoyed La'Ron Readus' video: "Vox Machina: The Problem With NO MERCY PERCY! | READUS 101" He also points out how typically male and female revenge narratives have completely different catharsis. th-cam.com/video/Vw36XEt7LL4/w-d-xo.html
TLoU2 is like the Mona Lisa, it is objectively an amazing work of art. But it’s up to your objective opinion if it’s good or not- if it speaks to you. I’m of the latter, but respect your differing opinion. But I wonder if my opinion will change when the third game comes out and I’m looking at the “complete” story.
The Malcolm in the Middle episode where Reese and Malcolm get into a wild prank war that gets completely out of hand and goes off the rails over some stupid minuscule slight and ends up with both of them basically destroying each other socially
This is why I love your videos. Also, while our tastes in media may differ, you might enjoy Detroit. That's a game that forces some tough decisions on you, and a few of them don't give you any time to think first. That's a helluva way to teach you something about yourself.
I love how you put The First Wives Club in (almost) EVERYTHING.
Yesss
Keeps me coming back, tbh
The First Wives Club is something I find incredibly detestable on top of not being funny. I don't have any sympathy for the protagonists because they're petulant, insufferable harpies with co-morbid BPD+NPD who just want to exact disproportionate retribution on their exes to fund their crisis center as a vanity project to boost their own egos like a lot of women who get dumped by their husbands for their mistresses. It was a fitting end for the author of the book it was adapted from to die from a botched plastic surgery procedure after spending her professional career making vapid critiques of society's female beauty standards through the tripe she had published.
The way you describe The Crow makes the idea of achieving revenge sound satisfying in the same way that getting to the end of a list of chores is.
I want to just blandly explain the point you're making but I'd rather just feel it cause yeah
The Pikachu VS Clone Pikachu fistfight walked so the Ellie VS Abby fistfight could run.
this comment feels like a violence
One of my favorite authors described revenge as something that "gets your soul sticky" and I think about that a lot. Revenge doesn't make things better, particularly. It doesn't usually right any wrongs. Just makes you feel a different kind of awful, potentially for a lot longer.
If you like the idea of restorative justice, I recommend the TV series Leverage. It's essentially a heist-a-week crime show with the premise that the ensemble protagonists are the best thieves in the world who, in the pilot, score the "buy a private island and retire money" payout, so decide to get together to use their talents against the rich and powerful untouchable by conventional justice. There's also elements of found family and personal redemption (these people were not the Good Guys for most of their lives and are now having to confront that as they become the Good Guys). The show can be pretty formulaic, but so is the heist genre by its nature. And it's just a fun power anti-capitalist fantasy of being able to con the billionaires out of their power and into accountability for their actions.
Great show
I love Leverage so much! It’s my TV comfort food.
That sounds fun as hell! Can I ask what level of violence/gore it is? I'm squeamish and would hate to get invested in something I won't be able to finish.
@@emilyrln It's primarily a heist show. They're not going around killing the baddies, they're conning them and robbing them and exposing their corruption. The bad guy is defeated not by getting shot or stabbed, but by losing all their money or having their secrets exposed or getting framed for a crime similar to the one they're already committing or stuff like that. A few times the baddies to end up dead, it's never on-screen that I can remember and it's more commonly someone saying "I don't think we'll be seeing anymore of that guy after his mob friends find out..." in the episode wrap-up.
To go into more specifics: There's usually a fight scene or two, but it's about Jackie Chan levels of violence. Lots of punching and kicking and use of the environment to smack people into stuff, but I can't recall more than a trickle of blood from the corner of the mouth or dripping from the hairline.
There are a few times over the series where people get shot/stabbed, but it's again broadcast TV levels of violence where there's a red splotch on their shirt and that's pretty much it for "gore".
@@emilyrln it's PG, according to the parental guidance of IMDb, no nudity/sex and slight violence, alcohol/drug use, scary scenes. It's mostly spy stuff and mind games, nothing like a CSI, for example
Personally my two favorite revenge stories are The Locked Tomb and The Princess Bride.
The Locked Tomb because the message is that no amount of revenge will ever undo the fact that it happened in the first place and wasting your time trying to find that will only scar you deeper.
The Princess Bride because Inigo focusing on revenge for fifteen years got him nowhere and it was the friendships he built and the skills he loved that actually led him not just to his revenge, but onto the life afterwards. It was only because of Fezzik that he found Rugen and because of Westley that he had a life after Rugen was dead. Yes, he got his revenge, but the only reason it happened and it was enough was because he didn't let it completely consume him.
I love that you gave a mature content warning AFTER showing us a child die
I feel like 9 to 5 would also qualify as a tale of restorative justice
Abby and Ellie kind of serve as foils in the their revenge plot lines. Abby kind takes the mutual aid route when she helps those kids and takes care of Lev. She had her "vibes based justice" but she found real solace in helping others and being around those she cared about. Ellie cant get her revenge but has people she cares about and can help. But instead she goes after Abby anyways in search of what she already has.
Sure, but the game makes the odd choice of never having Abby reckon with what she’s done to Joel. There’s no point with Lev where she’s like “Was he like this?” And a subsequent “oh shit, I’m just like he was.” For a game about cycles of violence, it’s very uneven in its storytelling
I disagree that the player being able to turn TLOU2 off means that they have a say in whether its violence takes place. That's like saying that a reader has narrative agency in the plot of a book because they're capable of closing it at any time. Or an audience has agency over a play because they can get up and leave.
Although you don't get to see the full story, that doesn't mean that the story ended where you left off.
A one of a kind video covering these 3 is why ColdCrash is in my top 5 favorite TH-cam channels.
I think one of the most disturbing things in the Last of Us Part II is all the Let's Players who cheered as Ellie tortured Nora.
honestly the hospital section in tlou2 was amazing storytelling and forcing the player to be complicit in this gruesome act of ellie is key, as it kind of implies that she too had already lost control of herself in the act of revenge.
Sure, but it’s a pretty hamfisted way to implicate the player in all that, especially when the game forces you to partake in the violence or otherwise soft lock yourself out of the story. MGS3 does a better job of conveying the same point by making the consequences of your violence come later.
@@lman318I've seen you comment elsewhere about TLOU2. Can I just assume that you don't like the game?
@@AM13226 It's a criticism that applies to a few other games, trying to guilt trip and say a lot of yous in a story the player doesn't actually make choices in. I think Fallout: The Frontier may be the worst example I know of in that regard.
Your content is good enough that I can upvote upfront without worrying about being let down
“Vibes Based Justice” This. This is what I watch your videos for. I never know what I’m in for going in but I’m always amazed at how much I’ve gotten on the way out. I’ve supported you on Patreon for years and yet I’m still continually impressed by your work. I can’t wait to find out where we’re gong next.
I see The First Wives Club, I click on it
I do the same for pumpkinhead
Ngl, that totally motivated me to click reflexively as well (tho I have yet to be disappointed by one of cold crash's vids)
I like to think Ellie detaches herself from violence because of her bite. The only difference between Ellie and a Stalker is her ability to aim a gun.
I think The Crow works so well is because it's original comic story, was written by a man who was actually grieving the loss of his girlfriend he lost due to a drunk driver.
Yes I've always liked the first Pumpkinhead because Pumpkinhead only went after those he was assigned to go after so it wasn't killing for the sake of healing like you had in a lot of 1980s slasher movies. You'll have to let it run its course did you think it was going to be easy all neat and painless.
This feels like a metaphor for something that I haven't thought of yet
TLOU2 is my favorite game of all time. It is so rich in story, character, and its messaging. I love how it withholds the context until the right moment. Ellie's motivation for sparing Abby, to me, is for a variety of reasons. There isn't a single reason the player or even Ellie can name. That is often true to life when we have a desire to do something and cannot exactly pinpoint why. Sometimes what informs a decision can be too complex to articulate but there's a pull toward it that is undeniable.
I was deeply moved by that story, even more so than the first. I found a deep love for it that grew so slowly I didn't realize how much it meant to me until I was sobbing over the ending credits music. As an added bonus, it was so lovely to have a trans character with agency who was able to be respected and loved and who wasn't killed off in the end despite the dangerous setting. That got me too
@@legendswarble2845 I am not a big crier but part two got me a handful of times, lol. When I got to the credits, I was a mess. I couldn't stop thinking about the game for weeks. I love Lev! I really don't appreciate when some people reduce him to his suffering when he is so much more. He has a dry sense of humor, he is brave and loyal, tough, and he empathizes with people incredibly even after seeing the worst that man has to offer. Great character that brought so much humanity to a very dark tale.
I have never been good at video games, but I love watching people play them. I watched a playthrough of TLOU2 and it was an incredible story experience. I agree there isn't 'a reason' for why Ellie made that decision. It's almost allegorical; the vengeance and violence was senseless, so too was her abrupt decision to end it.
i appreciate your analysis of tlou2. i always found ellie going after abby that final time incredibly frustrating given all she was sacrificing to do it, but now i see it can be read as needed closure to ellie’s story.
i also like hate to say it but i think the idea that abby was a ‘non traditional’ built woman who killed their video game man and who they didnt get to brutally murder in the end was a major sticking point for alot of fans of the first game.
Revenge is a lot like comfort-eating; merely enjoying eating the junkfood doesn't make each mouthful any healthier...
highly disagree, revenge can be very therapeutic and part of getting closure
And too much of it is really bad for your health.
@@botanicalitus4194 What if vengeance isn't possible? Such as, the person who wronged you isn't available, through incarceration, death, or just can't be located.
hearing your take on tlou2 was the closure I didn't know I needed
You are one of the most important of the contemporary philosophers. Thank you for sharing your wisdom. What I thought was going to be a light (ish) film analysis, had me in tears.
You bring so much to our attention, so much to the table. Serge, you make the world better. Thank you.
Talking about important contemporary philosophers and this video’s topic, I just cannot resist to share that video: th-cam.com/video/smQsfNw_7V4/w-d-xo.html
(duh, it‘s an important contemporary philosopher‘s take on justice. With cats or whatever.)
AAAAAAH FINALLY SOMEONE THAT GETS THAT THE CHOICE IN TLOU2 IS TO TURN THE GAME OFF
literally like the game stops if you don't want to do it, that is precisely why it works, you *choose* to keep playing to see what happens. you could just go watch someone play if you just want the basic story but you _choose to keep playing_
this is sort of why Jessica Jones S02 didn't work for me but that's a different story. anyway, yeah, it's always so funny to me that people said you don't have a choice in that moment.
@@James.Stark.Ben.Edition Sure, but that's not the only choice you can make, and it completely clashed with ND's style of storytelling, which is trope-based and well-crafted. MGS 3 did the same thing while also giving player control AND giving us a good character-based story. That's the true power of video games as art, when it acknowledges the player input and rolls with that.
@@lman318 yeah I've seen the Naked Jacob video too, but here's the thing: if you didn't agree with Joel's choices in the ending of the first game, you also had a choice to turn it off. that was a choice. most people who played on just happened to like the character enough to see where it went or to defend him. The whole point of this game was to see how far you could push your empathy, by making characters actually make choices that might stretch your backing of them and taking control away from the player during that sequence would have made the themes run much more hollow. in a game about retribution rather than justice, should we not be made to experience that feeling of wanting retribution, of wanting revenge for what happened? if you don't agree with Ellie there, that's fine, you're a normal person but if you liked Joel like so much of the fanbase did, you probably at least understood her need for revenge, for closure and most likely, you were feeling it too. that's why the Abby sections work so well because they actually force you to empathize with someone you hated and it ties your success, your need to see the story unfold with wanting to survive and succeed at the game thus making you literally be in her shoes, especially with the 'rivalry' between the WLF and the Seraphites serving another example of how those things tear us apart. You'd at least understand Ellie's choice, just like you would've understood Joel's choice to kill all those people in the hospital. If you didn't, that's fine, I hated Joel after the first game because he denied Ellie any agency in the situation but I understood why he needed to do it to get closure. I hated Ellie for slaughtering so many people like she does but I understand why she needed to do it to get closure. She literally became Joel pre-TLOU when he was with Tommy just with a bone to pick. Abby became Joel post-TLOU by the end of the game. It might not have resonated with you but that's more likely a you thing. And the choice works precisely because it's a naughtydog game. If it was a telltale game or something where you could choose the story or make choices, nobody would actually feel the full weight of all that crushing pain and bitterness and anger that drives Ellie to where she ends up by the end. By continuing to play, it's an implicit agreement that you want to see what happens.
@@James.Stark.Ben.Edition But that's the achilles heel in ND's storytelling here. That came at the end of the game, whereas they completely start you off on a bad footing with Abby here, only for you to play a lot of her story afterwards. It would have been way easier for players to empathize with her if the plot was told in parallel instead of stopping the plot to explain all of her backstory (not all of which was important). Not only that, there isn't an empathizing moment where Abby has to reckon with what she's done. No "maybe Joel was more complicated," no "I fucked up," nothing. I get that's the point in the game, but it can be both the point AND not actually work. Her taking care of Lev doesn't actually take away what she did, and ND refused to reckon with that for some reason.
@@lman318 I wrote like over two thousand words going into detail on why that's a bad idea but the comment accidentally got deleted so here's the basics because honestly I cannot be bothered to retype all that:
1. Asking the game's stories to run parallel isn't just asking for structural differences, it's asking for a different game entirely. The way the game handles the themes it wants to is built on getting you to experience the emotions they want you to, to marinate in a character's psyche for an extended period of time and to jump between perspective is asking for an entirely different story because you could never get the same visceral reactions if you didn't experience the story as you do now. The story is basically perfect in making the audience experience exactly what it wants them to experience. It's just the people assume games must be ludologically gratifying. The game is made to be a miserable experience because all that the path Ellie is on brings is misery. Abby's journey in this game is literally Joel's journey in the first game: after losing someone they loved because they were murdered, they lost touch with their humanity, slowly diving deep into the worst aspects of themselves and alienating basically everyone around them until a young child shows up that makes them reconnect with their humanity and understand why life is worth living and how we move on from the horrific shit we suffer. If their stories ran parallel, you wouldn't experience the emotions naughtydog wanted you to feel. If anything, you probably just get whiplash or emotional exhaustion jumping from Abby's story to Ellie's constantly. The game is meant to be a miserable experience and if the game was structured by alternating between Abby and Ellie, it would be a fundamentally different game telling a fundamentally different story with fundamentally different themes. That's not trying to improve what ND set out to do, that's asking for something else entirely.
2. Abby does not need to reflect on how Joel might have been more complicated or anything of the sort. That's Ellie's journey to take. Abby has already had her revenge and it did not bring her peace. She still has nightmares and has a miserable life until she finds a purpose and a reason to live in Lev. The only way she actually heals and gets closure is to find another reason to keep living, to reconnect with her humanity and love another person wholeheartedly instead of chasing down the person who's wronged her in need for revenge. Abby's story is there to tell you that even if Ellie killed Abby, she wouldn't know peace. She wouldn't get closure. She couldn't move on. The only thing killing Abby would do is take her away from Lev, like Joel was taken from Ellie. The only way for Ellie to be happy again, to have closure, is to move on, find another reason to live, which is why the ending with the guitar is like that. She literally leaves her last connection to Joel to move on and discover what life has in store for her after this instead of focusing on trying to get revenge as if it would bring Joel back.
3. The Abby flashbacks were all necessary to draw parallels between Joel in TLOU and Ellie in this game. She evolves like Joel did and we needed to see the extent of that, how she was like Joel and how her quest for revenge was similar to Ellie's and how it brought her no joy. If we just heard about it or saw it chronologically, half the game wouldn't have the impact it does. If we knew what Joel and Ellie's last conversation was in the beginning, it would make the ending be less emotionally effective and affecting. If we saw how Abby was driving away everyone before we saw what the need for revenge and closure did to Ellie, we'd be working our way backwards in drawing an empathic line between the two characters, and that would be even more weird if we knew that she killed Joel. Also, if that scene of her killing him came at the end, it would be even worse because it'd be reduced to pure shock value as the crazy twist at the end instead of something fueling the story to deliver a touching, artistic message about healing from grief an trauma and pain and breaking the cycles of violence and protecting your heart and innocence and your humanity in a world that constantly seeks to rob it from you. It would also lead to a different story entirely like I said.
there was a lot more here but I forgot some of what I said and some feels inorganic to retype now because the moment has passed so yeah. anyway, you're asking for an entirely different game instead of trying to improve what ND wanted to do. that's your prerogative I suppose but that doesn't mean TLOU2 is bad. It just means it didn't resonate for you like it did for so many others. The choices it made in making you actually experience the emotions that the characters do by holding you captive in their perspective is literally the best choice the game made lol.
I really love your point about morality in stories, I think it's way too easy to fall in the trap of moralizing and wanting to moralize our stories, when it should be more about how we as an audience understand (or try to understand) actions and emotions within stories.
I don't know how you ended up in my algorithm, but I'm certainly pleased you did. It's obvious how much you enjoy the work you put into your channel after watching only one upload. Thought provoking and well produced.
The best revenge story will always be Willard 🫡
I want the algorithm to know just how mad I am that this didn't show up at the top of my Subscription feed on the day it came out.
However that said, my Saturday is now vastly improved.
Your overarching point at the start, regarding vengeance and closure (or lack thereof) is how I would have loved to see Anakin's initial fall to the Dark Side in Episode 2 - namely, the slaughter of the Tuskan tribe - be done. Where he gets to Padme, relates what happened out there... and then explained that he feels *nothing* in the wake of it. No remorse, but also no satisfaction. As viewers, we would see it as his realization that vengeance is empty - but *he* would interpret it through the lens of the Jedi's meditative teachings, where they caution against extreme emotions, and thus he begins to blame them for his not feeling better after avenging his mother's death. It would have made his descent into the Dark Side a *lot* more resonant, and a better cautionary tale.
A lot of the backlash to the Last of Us II comes from the fact that it's a challenging narrative that directly confronts the player. I don't think a lot of players were ready for that. Now, there are surely some decent criticisms out there of it but the fact that a lot of people just hated the game because it made them uncomfortable with their own thoughts can't be overlooked.
Absolutely, a realisation that caught me off guard and one I like to hit people with when they complain about the story is that Abby is a better person than Ellie. The narrative makes that pretty clear to the players and people who refused to dig beyond "Abby killed Joel and I want revenge" hate it because you can't deny it.
@@XTooManyShowsX I do that with the fact that Ellie wanted to give up her life to provide the vaccine. Part of what makes Joel less sympathetic is that he denied Ellie agency and put his trauma above the entire world.
Confronts the player with boredom and bad writing. Wow is revenge bad? 🙀🙄
@@surgeland9084 I agree, i loved Joel but when he was killed my first logical thought after the sadness was "So what did he do?" because he was a pretty awful person and did awful things.
@@fleacythesheepgirl What boredom and bad writing? if you refuse to engage with complex media beyond using poor interpreting skills thats on you, but thats ok because media would truly be boring if it was all made to be accessible by all people everyone.
no because finally!! someone who loves the tlou2 story as much as i do. because the pure emotion and grief and its irrationality is exactly what i love about it! it was very good hearing it so clearly articulated!
A brilliant dive into a heavy topic! I really enjoyed your choice of revenge stories to explore
My revenge awakening was the korean drama The Penthouse, cause the protagonist was strong and her refusal to cross the line to get her just revenge left her vulnerable, but she found a way. Next, I've consumed korean and Japanese revenge stories and I have to say, they're the experts
Absolutely they are. Korean revenge is such a good drama. Have you watched the glory?
Any recommendations?
If there's one thing I don't want this world to become, it's titless
The First Wives Club is always, consistently relevant. awesome stuff as usual!
I know I've said this more than a few times on Twitter and such, but I wanted to comment for engagement purposes. I love the First Wives Club and am so glad I gave it a go after seeing you recommend it. I've shown it to a few friends now because I love it so much. Thank you for sharing this joy with us lol
Really enjoyed this one. I feel like you could revisit this subject in a future video and talk about Park Chan-wook's vengeance trilogy.
Omg you are a genius and I’ve been dying to hear your take on TLOU2
The thing about The Last of Us is how in both stories, the further it goes along, the less anyone talking about them feels the need to bring up the zombies.
The real monsters were the humans we met along the way.
Nothing will get me to instantly love a video faster than a Garth Marenghi clip. Also just a great video in general, as usual.
I am a person who has mixed opinions on The Last of Us Part 2. I feel there is a stark dissonance between the story of the game and the gameplay. Where the story is anti-revenge it feels strange that while you play the game, Ellie mows down hundreds of seemingly innocent faceless goons (not technically faceless I know the game has a mechanic where the human enemies have names, but I digress). It's the ol' "I killed all the villain's henchmen, then hesitate when I finally face the villain". I wouldn't be surprised if in Part 3 we follow a character who is the kid of faceless henchman #264 who is seeking revenge on Ellie.
well tbf all the enemies in the game attack you first. yea she couldve just not went on a revenge quest and not kill all those people but lore wise wolves attack tresspassers no matter what their intentions might be. they dont take into account that a person couldve just wandered in. they just assume them as the enemy which like cant really blame them but still. the ellie vs abby fight is one of the rare instances in both games where the protag attacks a person that woulntve caused them harm if they did nothing.
The basic message of The Last of Us Part 2 is walk away.
First Wife's Club reminds me in some ways of that movie 9 to 5.
What an excellent video. I LOVE revenge movies. This was a great breakdown using some of the best examples.
My favourite revenge film is Promising Young Woman.
I really hope Contrapoints and fans watch this as a companion to her video essay on Justice.
Sometimes what you really need is for someone else to pay a horrible price.
Re: Last Of Us Part 2
Chuds really struggle with stories moved by emotions and not by plot points.
Always happy to see one of your videos pop up in my notifications! Also, have you ever heard of the book "The Faceless Old Woman Who Secretly Lives in Your Home"? It's written by the Welcome to Night Vale people and has a really interesting perspective on revenge and the lengths it can drive someone to
A tooth for a tooth leaves the whole world gummy
I adore these videos so much. You're such a good storyteller, and I get to see all of these new types of media! Amazing video as always :D
a friend loaned us the DVD for Pumpkinhead not too long ago and we were just expecting another campy 80s slasher flick, having never heard of it, but were surprised at how good it actually was? It definitely holds up if you're a horror fan but on the fence about giving it a try
I am back from watching the first wives club, thank you so much for recommending it!
The First Wives Club is one of my favorite movies and I first watched it after a bad breakup. It was borderline therapeutic
I can’t believe you summed up my dnd character’s entire arc around punitive vs restorative Justice by using the first wife’s club
Like sir we’ve literally called his sense of morality vibes based
This was a really well-written and well-thought out video. Great job!
Great vid! Love the notion you mentioned, that we don't need to be told why a character did something, it just needs to be internally logical, within the world that was built (you explained it better).
it's pretty obvious Ellie forgave Abby because that's what she missed out on with Joel
MAN The Crow soundtrack is good innit? Easily the best movie album I can think of.
"Revenge is a fools game" Arthur Morgan
I have to be honest, I don't think "of course you have a choice, you can turn the game off" is a very compelling point. If my only options are "continue along the preset path the game has decided for me" or "completely drop this piece of media that I spent $60+ on" that isn't really much of a choice -- it's definitely not a fair one, at any rate
...I was going to leave a longer comment talking about good ways to implement choice in video games that feel meaningful, and bring up a bunch of different examples... but I really don't wanna leave a whole essay in the comments -- especially bc it would make me seem more upset than I actually am lmao
TL;DR I don't really agree with you about TLOU2 but I always appreciate hearing your thoughts! You got me intrigued enough about Pumpkinhead that I skipped the spoilers and I'm going to try and watch it soon!
Why, Serge???!!! Why would you put that seen with Ellie and Joel at the end??!!! 😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭
Haven't seen Pumpkinhead, but I love the other two stories. The First Wives Club was a favorite movie of mine and my sister's that we would watch over and over again(along with Big Business and Death Becomes Her), and though I love The Last of Us, it really raked me over my emotional coals. The fact that you went through that four times is amazing because I think once is about all I can stand.
Thank you for another great story essay! ^_^
Everything else aside, this video gets full credit for acknowledging the existence of Vectorman 2.
This channel is so underrated
Great video, loved all your takes on these works of art.
30:17 yeah, how come no one reported the doctor? I'm pretty sure that's a violation.
12:50 and there I am, crying again
you got me realizing that even if i don't love the idea of revenge in real life, i do actually like revenge movies
I watched First Wives Club because of your channel! I really enjoyed it! And I love the framing of it as about mutual aid
My favourite revenge story is Berserk, because about half way through he goes "Wait this isn't working" and turns around and does something positive with his life instead.
I'd love to hear your take on Avatar the Last Airbender and how it handles ideas of justice and revenge! Maybe not perfect, but jesus christ is it good
You never miss - thanks so much for this
"you couldn't fact check whether or not you need to take a dump" gold!!!
I love your videos man. Funny and thoughtful and full of heart.
Please make a video about unquestionably leftist films being interpreted through pro left lenses regarding A Bug’s Life I’m so deeply curious to hear your extensive thoughts on this now
Love your insightful and philosophical studies on media. Thank you for another wonderfully interesting video. Whatever may interest you to talk about, I am eager to listen and contemplate. Great work 👏
20:38 "I mean they shot you on sight, didn't they?" The immediate redirection of the guys's flashlight as soon as she says this and his disposition turns from one of questioning to resolution as he turned away is very powerful. Didn't need to see him or his expression, but the flashlight telegraphed his body's response. I never played these games since I sobbed uncontrollably at the intro to the first game and never picked it up again, but it looks interesting. Too bad I'll never, ever be able to play a game where I torture someone. You said I can turn off the game? I can also never pick it up.
this was utterly amazing! one of your best!
The think the only thing I can criticise about this video is your point at 17:12, where you say people were annoyed at not getting a choice in whether to torture or not. I think people were more annoyed that the game was seemingly chastising them for something they had no choice in. It's like the game is trying to show moral superiority, when it offers no possible alternative. There was some comic ages ago which had something similar, about the game forcing you to kill a dog, and then trying to make you feel bad for something that completely halted your progress.
I understand that for Ellie, there is no choice. But as someone playing the game, with how they handle the aftermath, it just feels pompous. And, in fairness, this has been done better. Lisa: The Painful has a section where you decide whether to kill the protagonist's father or leave him be, and even if you choose spare him, the protagonist tries to kill him anyway. Because it was never your choice. It was his.
I don't know. Maybe I'm misinterpreting the point TLoU2 is trying to make. I might be just be illustrating your claim at 27:05, or even gone in a full circle and supported your point at 17:12. Regardless, great video, hope the film is going well, have a nice day
Lol that closing line
To me the key to The Crow is it's complete sincerity, which is part of what makes it so cathartic. I think that's something these stories have too. All those cop-type on a rampage type revenge stories have a cynicism to them.There is a lot more to my love of the Crow than that, and someday I'll make that essay, but sincerity is the heart of it.
first wives' club is my favourite genre of movie, women having fun
First wives club is one of my favorites. Liking immediately
god I keep forgetting how fucking good tlou2 is
Alright alright I'll watch the first wives club! Sheesh ❤️
3 tales: The Crow, Pumpkinhead, The Last of Us, and First Wives' Club
I think circumstances of how the characters were brought into the revenge vibe is a huge factor as to how the revenge forms. The first Wives Club form of revenge being productive could be tied to how they were brought into the vibe for revenge, there is an element of empathy at the core of it because they were directly brought in by a death of a friend but not the focus of their revenge. Something the other two obviously do not have, Last of Us part 2 in particular is all tied up with Ellies own issues with Joel over the events of the first game.
Perhaps a factor that puts you off the revenge part of many films is they often put in some sort of artificial gap between the act that sparks it and the eventual act of revenge. The person seeking revenge is often put in a coma or injured so badly they end up spending weeks/months/years out of the picture and then come back. This often turning the revenge aspect of the story into something else to kind of justify the revenge as something else . if the target has since moved on drastically the more interesting part of the story often heavily outweighs the actual revenge Gangs of New York comes to mind for me. There is also oddly a lot of revenge stories that involve the villain taking children or similar of the lead (mask of zorro, Arcane) and this sometimes changes the whole dynamic greatly.
And in a bad revenge film the gap in time often highlights how little the main character has changed from the inciting incident. So there whole revenge can sometimes feel stunted?
I also really enjoyed La'Ron Readus' video: "Vox Machina: The Problem With NO MERCY PERCY! | READUS 101"
He also points out how typically male and female revenge narratives have completely different catharsis.
th-cam.com/video/Vw36XEt7LL4/w-d-xo.html
TLoU2 is like the Mona Lisa, it is objectively an amazing work of art. But it’s up to your objective opinion if it’s good or not- if it speaks to you. I’m of the latter, but respect your differing opinion. But I wonder if my opinion will change when the third game comes out and I’m looking at the “complete” story.
Best revenge movies "Only God Forgives", "Three Billboards Outside Ebbing Missouri", "Blue Ruin".
The Malcolm in the Middle episode where Reese and Malcolm get into a wild prank war that gets completely out of hand and goes off the rails over some stupid minuscule slight and ends up with both of them basically destroying each other socially
Another Cold Crash video? About vengeance, but really about communal restoration? Considering the week I've had, this feels good.
Must this blessing shield you from the wrath of the Holy Ones & Zeros.
Last of Us II is probably the most mature and absolutely painful exploration of revenge i've ever experienced.
you need to consume more revenge stories, then, my friend.
I prefer my vengeance cruelty free, gluten free, and organic
This is why I love your videos.
Also, while our tastes in media may differ, you might enjoy Detroit. That's a game that forces some tough decisions on you, and a few of them don't give you any time to think first. That's a helluva way to teach you something about yourself.
Wow so well done, love this
Oh my god please, please do a full review of TLOU2 at some point! Loved your take on this side of it
Love the Shawn James at the start :)