Stealing Brides for Love & Proffitt (Overboard vs. Seven Brides)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 ก.ย. 2024
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The first time I watched this with my Mom and the girls said 'mine' about the baby, she just laughed and said 'if they'd taken any of their mothers with them they'd have been able to tell the dads that none of those girls had been there long enough to give birth yet - that's what you get for leaving women out of things'.
That’s actually quite funny
But tgen again, the baby could have been born early. My son came 3 months early.
@@sandyr-w6906 with nobody with any medical training, no medical equipment, no proper sanitation, no incubators etc... there's no way a premie would survive. Not all full term babies did.
@@mortisrat i understand what your saying, but you forget the "movie magic" people are over analyzing the baby and all that. I enjoy the movie and Im not overanalyzing it.
@@sandyr-w6906 I thought it was a funny statement. You're the one who decided to try to disprove it, and now that I mentioned you made a rather silly point, suddenly the whole issue is irrelevant??
It was just a joke my Mom once made. It's funny, but also has a little truth history/society wise. Why try to pick holes in it in the first place?
I'm a militant feminist and Grease is one of my all time favorite movies. I'm aware that the movie is pretty misogynistic and am very critical of it, but I'm not gonna pretend that I don't have fun every time I watch it
It's electrifying!
I think 'misogynistic' is a bit of a stretch... I mean yeah it shows a woman changing herself to please a man, but it's worth noting the cultural implications of her transformation; it's also her becoming liberated and taking control of her sexuality, rejecting old fashioned feminine norms. That still doesn't hold up to today's standards of feminism, but we must consider these films in the context they were made. it would be a far more sexist film if the transformation was in reverse, and the greaser girl turns herself into conservative repressed Sandy D to please her boyfriend. Also, consider the character of Rizzo. She's a girl who is obviously sexually active, and almost falls pregnant as a teenager, but the film gives her empathy and understanding, not judgement.
I love You've Got Mail and I am hyperaware of all the manipulation and lies from Tom Hanks and the fact that both characters cheat. I still love it. It's a film, not a moral treatise. lol
@Ryan Scates I think both ways of looking at it are valid-I think _why_ someone likes or dislikes a movie or a book, is far far more important than *which* one they do or don't like or dislike(And I think that's kind of the point of this whole entire video too). ^^
But, perhaps, the movie creators intended it to be more of a story about her figuring out what she herself did or didn't actually WANT to be..even in the face of everyone else all telling her to be multiple differing things..or something like that(Whether that's what actually came through the clearest or not)? I have no way of knowing - because, I'm not in their minds, I'm only ever in my own mind. And, beyond a certain point, it doesn't always even entirely matter what the creator of it intended to do with it or not..at least, not so much as it really just matters what each individual does or doesn't choose to do with it themself, when consuming it afterward.
It doesn't always mean that either person is a bad person, just because they feel completely different ways about the same thing. Nor does it mean so simply because each person saw, or got, something totally different than each other did . . even in, or out of, the otherwise same thing.
Just because some person _could_ use a food allergen to intentionally poison someone, doesn't necessarily mean that literally every person in the world should cease using that allergen for other people who won't be poisoned by it at all.
@Ryan Scates Unless that joke is specifically the thing you like about something? Or unless the reason why you like something which utilizes that particular trope is because that's how you see all relationships other than one very specific kind? It's not a big deal if anyone sometimes likes or appreciates things that are not totally perfect.
Some people's inability to recognize a thing's imperfection or negatives themself, is not the same thing as those imperfections or negatives in fact being the thing that everyone who likes it does actually like about that said-thing.
My husband is a carpenter, and when I showed him Overboard he HATED it.
Because she threw his tools overboard.
"What sort of a monster IS SHE? Doesn't she know how expensive they are?"
Yikes. 🚩🚩🚩
Exactly!! Weird lady for doing that :o
@@ThatWeirdFinn Carpenters can't work without their tools! He refused to continue to watch the movie afterwards 🤣
I thought the same. I know what it's like to lose a bunch of really nice tools. I was not fond of that movie, and that was only one reason.
Haha! That's sort of the point, isn't it? She's so awful that you have a hard time feeling bad for her in the beginning of the movie
I’m not done with this video but I grew up in a theater family. I was exposed to this seven brides as a little girl and really loved it as a kid somehow. Looking back as an adult with my adult life shaped by sexism and sexually abusive relationships with men my relationship to this movie is so weird and I can only look back on it in weird horror. It makes me feel oddly indoctrinated. Idk how to explain it.
I was wondering the same thing, because I loved that story when I was in school. I am thinking that the issue is the difference between liking the story and liking the ideology. When we were younger, we didn't understand the values embedded in the story and just saw the women falling in love with the men. The story is cute if the reality is love. The problem is stories like this are created (and with unhealthy messages), which perpetuate unhealthy assumptions about women's roles and worth. Now that we understand the ideology, we are very disturbed.
Indoctrination it was. I'm not saying that the playwright, composer, etc., were thinking about indoctrination, but it was the Zeitgeist of the 50s.
@@beejls I agree, I don't think anyone was trying to suppress women with a movie like this, it's just how people used to think and unfortunately these types of tropes in movies help to continue these ideas.
Hi! I just came back to this video and just wanted to say I loved your section on morality in media as well. Although seven brides for seven brothers still disturbs me and I think it’s not really material to show to your children without proper talks about consent and love (which I didn’t get as a kid). There is NOTHING wrong with loving this movie at all. I find women who like this kind of media especially get really shit all over by people thinking it’s somehow feminist to dunk women’s opinions all day and it isn’t healthy at all. I’ve been on the side of liking very similar problematic content and getting shit on in online groups that claim to stand up for me, it’s horrible. Put something that is often on my mind into words well. Don’t want someone to use my comment to fuel horrible media takes like that.
I wasn't expecting a video on Seven Brides for Seven Brothers alongside Overboard today, but I'm 100% here for it!!
Dude, if you're going to make videos about your personal taste, well, as long as the quality is like this, I'm all for it.
I love your conversation about your partner. Because as someone who was wildly independent, in her 30s, for 10 yrs until I fell ridiculously in love with my partner, love absolutely does not solve things. I know who I am, my partner knows themself, and now we've got to move our lives around eachother. Its complicated as hell. I was happy on my own and doing what I wanted whenever I wanted, but now... damn.
Its good seeing other 30 somethings, discussing all the things I feel. Especially the Dont Look Up parts.
It’s especially interesting coming upon these conversations because I wound up meeting and dating my current partner as a result of Pandemic isolation. Because of that, our relationship moved at very weird and inconsistent speeds. So far it’s going pretty good and we’re happy, but I’m honestly not sure how removed I feel from my independent, single, self because the last time I was in that state, I was mentally on the verge of falling apart like everyone else June 2020. To be clear, I did not start the relationship as a coping mechanism. It was just being locked in an apartment all day by myself gave me a lot more time to casually browse apps and we didn’t even go on an actual date until a month and a half of messaging each other. Of course we have the things about each other that drive us crazy and we both value our alone time and who we are outside of each other but I do wonder whether or not him or that independent self prior to knowing him would make me happier.
Welp…about a year or so later, we have decided to split up come July. We care about each other, but there are just things about each other that we can’t really reconcile with and we can’t keep pretending we can give each other what we want anymore. We’ve both known this on our own for a few months but finally admitted it to each other a month ago.
I love the talk you had with your mom at the end, truly the epitome of someone who will approach the discussion with you in good faith
As an aromantic I relate very much to your previous comfort with solitude. But I do still enjoy these kinds of films, morality aside.
I like seven brides and I think its messed up. I actually really like Milly better than any other character in that movie. She doesn't let the brothers or her husband get away with anything. Ever since I was a child though I always thought the women (girls?) falling in love with the boys was weird however I like how they turned the tables on them and forced the brothers to marry them. A poetic twist I guess. I always focused on the feminine power in the movie.
Honestly, when looking at when the girls say the baby is theirs, it's almost like they're proposing to the men, which I thought was a really fun twist. Even at the start where Milly is dealing with the guys, I thought it was an empowering moment of her showing that she wasn't going to put up with whatever just for her husband, she demanded she be respected, which was really powerful to my mom and myself after having to deal with my dad who wouldn't respect the opinions of women (or really anyone for that matter) for a long time.
seven brides is fuuuucked up, but i watched it probably a hundred times as a very small child, so i have a strong bond with it. (this seems to be the case for many people.) i called it "dancin' boys" cos the title was just too long for a 3-4 year old. i still love it to this day, but i'd never recommend it to anyone without a serious caveat. i'm looking forward to what you have to say about it.
Girl me to. Literately the exact same experience, and the exact same relationship with the movie.
I adore Overboard. Goldie Hawn's comedic timing is absolutely impeccable.
Oh, man. As an acespec woman raised by evangelicals, I have SO MANY feelings about romcoms in general and forced romance tropes in particular. I'm demisexual, so literally everyone I've ever been attracted to has been a longtime friend first--and it's never been reciprocated. (The list is short, and the odds were never very good on numbers that small.) More importantly, I've never been attracted to anyone who expressed attraction to me. That means the idea of being trapped in an inescapable situation where I'm expected to be in love with my captor by the end of the story is my actual nightmare--as in, I have had nightmares like this, and because my sleeping brain is unsubtle, I'm usually also dying in them and no one else cares as long as I get married. It's gotten to the point that I can't watch romcoms anymore because the expectation that the leads will kiss by the end makes me anxious and miserable. It doesn't help that there's often no chemistry between the main characters, which makes the plot seem even more forced. SBFSB horrifies me so much in concept that I can't watch it. I only clicked on this video after telling myself that your analysis would be worth the stress.
I'm still sorting out how I feel about this video. But it did give me an idea: I think I'd be interested in hearing whether you think there are movies that do a good job of UNforced romance. Not just characters defying societal expectations--any Romeo and Juliet retelling does that--but defying the audience's expectations too. Maybe a May-December romance where the December is a woman or something. 🙄
Thank you for making this. It's given me a lot to think about. Hope your Valentine's with your partner is special.
If you want to see a May-December romance movie where the December is a woman, I thought Ali: Fear Eats The Soul was a pretty good one. It deals with the romantic leads not only defying societal expectations in terms of age, but also of race and class, because it's about an older white lady dating a poor middle-aged Arab immigrant in post-WWII West Germany. Fair warning though, it *does* get pretty heavy, for reasons you can probably guess based on the premise.
Maybe Sleeping with other people with Jason sudeikis and Alison Brie? It is kind of silly though but they are friends first and foremost
He has one in his list: Harry and Maude.
Highly recommend both Big Eden and Cloudburst!
@@nightfall3605 I've never watched that movie and I don't know what demisexual means but the first thing that came to mind was 'They should watch Harry and Maude!'
I was singing right along with the clips of 7 brides for 7 brothers. Good memories
Wow. This is definitely the future of online discourse! Thanks for this and just... wow. I'm creating a capstone concert for my theatre major right now that revolves around reclaiming Golden Age musical theatre that I grew up on, with feminist and queer twists. A lot of the shows and movies from that period permanently defined my sense of self-worth as less than the men around me, and as a queer, often masculine woman, I never felt that those stories had a place for me. My dad is a musical theatre performer and he & all of his peers maintain that really old school, objectifying misogyny. It means a lot to see men analyze these stories and examine their own biases in relation to them, because unfortunately that's one of the only ways to make space for others down the line. (Also, this was just a really entertaining one, so thanks for that lol.)
One of the things I took away from Seven Brides was Adam Pontipee's journey from a kind of callous carelessness to a greater empathy. At the beginning of the film, he has only the smallest glimmer of guilt about quickly marrying Milly and pressing her to drudge for his entire family. He hasn't learned much when he encourages his brothers to go kidnap themselves some brides, and he's bullheaded enough to take off and live in a cabin on his own when Milly demands that all the boys stay in the barn. It takes news of his own daughter's birth to start changing his mind, and it doesn't happen right away. He needs some more time on his own to think about what it would be like if someone were to come along and steal his own baby away from her family. By the end of the movie he still has a long way to go, but he's developed a greater understanding for the damage he's done and what he needs to do to make things right, or at least better.
Great video! I will admit, I'm with your mom. Looking at it now, I know the show is super problematic, but Millie is a strong woman who still manages to take charge of the situation she's in. It's not like she demurely shuffles off to do what she's told; she constantly rebukes Adam and the boys. And I found that really empowering as a child. Plus, the songs and dancing are just amazing
I love this movie. I appreciate the choreography and the song composition. I don't overthink it. Life's too short for that.
I missed these videos so much. Thank you 😭😭😭
7 Brides is also one of my mom's favorite movies. She also watches a ton of those terrible Hallmark movies, and when I asked her why she said it was because they all had happy endings.
I think some people (and maybe even women from a certain time frame) just like an easy story to settle into. Nothing you have to think about too hard with no one getting too hurt, and the ending wrapping up in a nice bow.
As someone who loves media analysis, but can get TOO caught up in it emotionally, I like that there are movies like 7 Brides that exist.
Lol! I hate 7 Brides but I do watch Hallmark movies. SOME Hallmark movies. (I have a long list of criteria but the bar is pretty low imo - 1st rule: it can't annoy me).
But I DO watch cos they require virtually no concentration at all (and free cos I only watch 1s on TH-cam). This is my entertainment when I'm cooking and cleaning.
I used to try watching documentaries while I did this but found it too frustrating cos I'd miss bits then have to stop, wash my hands then go back to what I missed. No need to do this with a hallmark movie - doesn't matter if you miss bits cos plot is so darn predictable.
I guess the same could apply to mindless musicals but for me, if I like the musical I'll stop what I'm doing to sing and dance which rather defeats the purpose
Anecdotally, I’ve never heard of a man say that waitress or Age of Adelaide is their favourite - so nice to hear!
Not to be terminally online here but I feel like a lot of Fandoms struggle with this exact concept, and it seems to me like a lot of it comes from shipping discourse. Especially since how it's experienced online comes more from teenagers that are just exploring a lot of things with their favourite characters, as opposed to the early star trek analog days. This gets always mixed with the upbringing of the teenagers, and we as a society (but in the USA especially) don't do a good job on teaching kids how to think for themselves and how to critically engage with media. So these Teens that maybe also had the type of parent that'd shelter then interacts in fandom and discovers someone likes a fictional relationship that's either inherently abusive or just very messy, the only logical conclusion for them is that the person enjoying these dynamics must either endorse them and/or wants to have relationships like that.
And so this also gets into different elements of Fandom. So then everyone that likes Story Arcs, Characters, and other Media that is deemed morally wrong to like gets hate for it. So if those Teens then never get the skills to interact with media like you're actually supposed to, they become then Adults that will teach the same mistakes to their children and/or they'll just stay in fandom spaces and will try to preach their gospel to the newer and younger fans
Living in Washington has made you start to look very grunge, Serge
I have definitely been guilty of judging people based on their taste in media while having what would be called problematic faves. Thank you for this video, it is going to change the way I interact with people for sure.
Sorry not to do with your comment, just love your pfp, I just don’t think I’ve seen a Johanna Constantine pfp out in the wild. xD
"A falsetto child?" makes me crack up so hard every time I watch Overboard. Great movie and great commentary on it
I can't comment on these movies, because I haven't seen any of them, but I wanted to say that your mom seems absolutely adorable! 😊
Women and men have complete double standards when it comes to how others view how much they’ve dated and if they’re single or not. If a 22 year old woman has never had a boyfriend, people might think, what’s wrong with her? Get her on a date now! But I don’t see society judging 22 year old men the same way. The film industry sells women movies where the end goal is romance while it sells men movies where the end goal is saving Gotham.
Never seen 7 Brides for 7 Brothers but as soon as you explained the plot I thought of Overboard. 😂
Love that movie, even if it's pretty messed up.
I LOVED this movie so much (seven brides). Every single scene. It’s so stupidly funny.
I know this isn’t your point but I actually found it so relatable the way you described your view on relationships and love and that is extremely satisfying.
I remember my mom showing me seven brides for seven brothers and just being confused about how casual they kidnap
The messages of Seven Brides for Seven Brothers is that barn raising leads to some of the most entertaining dance numbers ever committed to film.
always happy to see a new video from you keep up the good work :)
This is somewhat beside the point, but as a person that is sometimes self reliant to a fault, grew up thinking they'd definitely never get married and just go it alone, but has been lucky enough to find a person I want to spend the rest of my life with, listening to you talk about love being complicated while also saying you can't go back, that how you want your partner's perspective on all the things made me all kinds of misty. It just hit home in a very, very relatable way that I've struggled to pin down or explain
Okay. I was exposed to Seven Brides for Seven Brothers by my dad and I blame my thing for red-headed men squarely on its on rugged flannel clad shoulders. Seriously though, it did have one of the prettiest song sequence in a musical (guess which one I'm thinking of) so it wasn't all bad for me.
Such a thoughtful and awesome video. I love that you brought your mom’s perspective into it.
You and Folding Ideas always expand my vocabulary. Going to try to use Preponderance more.
Great video! Thanks. You've got a real knack for really drawing audience in and creating a complete narrative.
this is one of my favourite videos you've ever done, i LOVE it
You had me at the T-shirt.
But all the insight and even just the choice to compare and contrast these 2 stories... superb.
I'd be interested to see your reaction after also watching Paint Your Wagon and Here Come The Brides, which have similar elements but with subtle differences.
Dang it- I thought I'd successfully forgotten about these movies!!
Thanks for the video! I just found my new favorite movie
My family watched both of these a ton! My fave sexist old musical is ‘Calamity Jane’
This channel is a hidden gem of TH-cam
I don't know I'm still just reeling at the fact that my childhood favourite kdrama Couple or Trouble is directly based off Overboard?? Like I clicked for Seven Brides analysis and got described a plot to a movie I'd never seen that sounded extremely familiar.
i used to watch 7 brides for 7 brothers ALL THE TIME when i was a kid and hadnt thought about it until hearing a recap of the plot. that probably shouldnt have been a staple movie in my grandmothers house where me and the rest of my (female) cousins hung out all the time....
Love your "a falsetto child?" t-shirt
At first I was like "How you gonna do your lovely looking mother like that?" and then I was like "Wait, this is actually adorable and I love this content."
I love seven brides for seven brothers. I can recognize that it’s not a blueprint for real life. And also you have to remember that women WERE basically currency back in frontier times. The ratio of men to women was very skewed. These women would have had their pick of men but also would have been totally raised with the idea that wife and mother was their ultimate goal in life.
I loooooove Overboard, not only for the chemistry, but because it was filmed on the Oregon coast where my family lived. So I watch it, and it just gives me that v comfy and homey vibe!
Right- here's how it is. The six women showed clear interest in each brother. They weren't random victims. They weren't taken advantage of at any point. And then the women used the 1 in six chance that the child might be theirs to force the MEN into literal shotgun weddings. This isn't a beloved story with secret rapeyness. This is a story of men becoming civilised and women rebelling against outdated notions of marrying for money or who yoUr parents arrange for you. The hardest done by person in the tale was Milly, in being lied to about lookkng after the bros and that WAS egregious but there was clear character development wherein Adam's callous objectification gave way to giving milly her place as a de facto head and heart of the household. Men who love a good woman are always made greater by her. The modern feminist take on the whole thing is balls.
Did you... finish... the video...?
When I was a kid I watch this with my grandmother it was the eighties I was like 10 she was like 80 she had my mother at 40 and after seeing this movie we have the same discussion that you are bringing forward I specifically remember her telling me she was a minority in the states in a time of segregation how segregation sometimes pushes minorities to an ugly extreme out of character for us and how given the chance to truly get to know us beyond the other there may be more in common and how may be even more to love odd how someone else's take on life can see so much more
In like "Seven Brides" and I am a woman. The thing is you need towatch movies with the context of the times it was made in. Same goes for Overboard. Those were different times and a very different mind set in all of the people. I like Seven Brides for the music and the dancing. Yes, now i chringe at the premise of the plot, but you can still enjoy all the other stuff.
Another excellent one
As a woman Seven Brides sounds great. I'm gonna watch it now and it will probably be one of my favorite movies. Who doesn't have fantasies about being carried off by a rough mountain man? Sounds fun.
I didn’t even know what to tell you about this one! I’ve never watched Seven Brides, but I saw Overboard when I was a teenager and old enough to be horrified by it! I hated that movie with the passion fire of a thousand suns. Okay, maybe not that much, but I still detested the hell outta that movie, and Seven Brides isn’t much better.
Was reminded of this video because of a tumblr post I saw recently, about the fantasy series Discworld. It started out with criticizing some of the books’ outdated politics, which I very much agree with and was happy to finally see brought up concerning such a universally praised series, but the poster then went on to form the sentiment that because of some of the books’ politics, we had to leave them behind for more progressive books. I was a little bit dumbfounded by this, since I obviously understood the sentiment, but I feel like there isn’t any part of me which could agree with it. Like, the authors who the poster recommended instead, Ursula K. Le Guin and Tamora Pierce, for example, are obviously incredible writers and do an excellent job dissecting the same fantasy tropes that Terry does, but they are also very stylistically different from Discworld in a bunch of ways. Discworld is an incredibly unique series with a very distinct charm, and even when the stories at large are less progressive than they could be, Pratchett still maintains such a compassionate worldview on everything he writes of. I don’t know, it’s just strange to me, this idea that after analysis comes some sort of departure to “better” books. The post, to me, felt like a refusal to acknowledge the worth of stories outside their politics, which to me felt like a refusal to acknowledge many stories at all.
I just like the leaping men in the colourful shirts…
Ah, now this will be a nice video to round out my evening with! I already know it will be superb work, even before I see it!
Well done you ❤
Ok ... so I loved your commentary and appreciated your comments. When I was young I loved Seven Brides ... in fact the barn dance I still think is one of the most impressive choreographed dances in ALL musicals. I have watched the film as an adult woman and am horrified by it now. Especially the happy rape song (aka "The Sobbin' Women") ... jesus H christ 🤦♀. I really appreciate your break down and the points you make in the film's favor. I like when people point out greater dimension to a film so I really enjoyed watching your vid.
What's funny to me is that the part that really got me about your video is at the end when you were talking to your mom! It absolutely made my jaw drop listening to her takes on the film. I know that we are all products of our time and I am sure she is pro-woman and progressive. And it is BIZARRE how nostalgia can wash over and make us go all fuzzy on our core beliefs and principles.
For instance, I have had so many people tell me how much they LOVE the original Miracle on 34th Street, and in that film, Santa Claus ASSAULTS a man. Santa says "there is just no reasoning with some people" and HITS a guy. People watched this movie as kids and adore it and herald it as a beloved children's film, and it literally depicts the kindest most loving man in the world violently losing it on a guy for disagreeing with him. I think that's crazy!
So when your mom was describing that the girls falling in love with the brothers as a "healthy progression" ... that made my jaw drop. Like, what does it do to a young girl to be violently kidnapped, taken from her home and her family, kept isolated in a house with a bunch of other kidnappees, and that it's been done to you by someone that you kinda had a crush on?
Benefit of the doubt: maybe the girls DID "fall in love" with the brothers ... maybe they DID decide that they WANTED to marry them. But ain't nothing HEALTHY about any of it! I know how the film depicts it is all romantic when in reality all of those women would be suffering PTSD. I also know that your mom isn't seeing it that way ... her liking the film is tied to all these other emotions. It's tied to all the younger versions of herself that watched the film and all the things they felt when they watched it. I get it. Nostalgia is POWERFUL.
AND ... I have 2 extremely young nieces who I am already schooling about consent and healthy boundaries and how to speak up for themselves. And I have zero problems showing them Pet Sematary but I would give serious pause before letting either of them watch these films ... because I don't want them getting warm fuzzies around what they see depicted or hearing the background music swell and getting confused that this is what love is. I don't want them developing nostalgia around unhealthy ideas of men and women and what constitutes a healthy relationship. They're getting enough of that from the disney movies they're already consuming and watching how their parents behave. 🙈
So ... psychology is weird man. I guess that's all I'm trying to say.
I definitely agree that we need to stop reading people's pop culture tastes as a reflection of their real-life ethics. It's actually kind of nerve-wracking to tell people what my problematic faves are, but I think the truth is everyone has problematic faves, because when you look hard enough you can find something potentially questionable in any work of art ever, especially film, which is constantly changing because the values of the people and cultures producing them always changes and evolves.
I think it's absolutely crazy that someone would judge how good of a person you are because you like or dislike a certain movie. That just seems so insane to me. Like judging whether or not someone is a good person solely based off their favorite color. And it really just is so hard to imagine that there are actual people out there who believe that. Some of my favorite movies I like because the villains are just so dramatic and fun! Such as the little mermaid. Ursula is absolutely slaying and living her best life stealing souls from people. Does that mean I endorse tricking people into signing their souls away in a faustian bargain? Well yes I do but that belief is not because I like the movie. I'm just very pro faustian bargain to begin with. Anyway I forgot where I was going with this. Anyone have any dreams I can make come true in exchange for your soul?
i remember seeing seven brides as a kid and i could barely comprehend it
This video showed up on my recommended after watching the Take's video on How I Met Your Father, which has a similar comparison with its predecessor How I Met Your Mother and started a cynical vs. comfort sitcom debate on romance and politics.
I feel compelled to share with you that my middle school, (yes middle school) drama director decided that Seven Brides for Seven Brothers was a great choice of musical to have 7th and 8th graders perform. (I also note that all of the brothers were 8th graders and most of the brides were 7th graders...not much of a difference between 12 and 13 year olds but you do wonder hmm at our directors choices there) Anyway I think this experience made me a feminist.
this is also my mothers favorite movie, next time I see her I'll ask if she wants to watch it.
I even have it on dvd and I love it and my mother wanted to name my brother after Gideon
I think you got to remember seven brides is a farce!
coldcrash, you are epic. im really happy to watch your videos
Thank you for your nuanced analysis. This is the type of deep thinking that we need nowadays. Reality is not black and white, but it comes in many shades of grey.
I agree with your Mom-Millie, her decisions and actions are the central point of the story, not the brothers. They are the ones who get changed, not Millie. Also, did you miss the barn raising dance sequence? In musicals, courtship is frequently expressed through song and dance as it very clearly is in "Brides". That is where the couples actually pair up; each girl shows her attraction to a particular brother. The kidnappings are shown to be wrong in the context of the movie and the brothers spend a cold winter in the barn as a result. Both comedies end up with marriages, assuming Goldie gets her divorce ASAP.
As for Overboard, I never found it all that funny or interesting because the two protagonists are so unlikeable at the beginning. The only place for either of them to go is up and that is a very, very slow change. Plus the surprise happy ending that the two of them end up with all the money is too trite. It might have been more interesting if she actually had given up the money and had decided that the life that she would have with her working guy was worth the sacrifice. Goldie and Kurt are a cute couple but not enough to make up for the movie. Sorry, I know that you really like this movie.
Yes for the Don't look up video
It just occurred to us one of those brothers could have been the house husband.
This is interesting to me from the perspective of a white, middle class (not American, but still from an anglophone settler society, so culturally agacent) feminist, who - having not actually seen either of the movies in question, basing my opinions entirely upon what i've seen on film youtube - is instinctively a hell of a lot more uncomfortable with Overboard than I am with Seven Brides For Seven Brothers. Perhaps because of the very 1950s gender attitudes inherent in 7Brides - those girls get kidnapped because they are women, but that isn't something they can control, and so there is never any moral judgement upon them for being the target of men's abuse. Whereas the narrative of Overboard definitely comes across like certain women *deserve* to be treated in misogynistic ways if they are rich, if they are spoiled, if they treat (working class?) men badly - which intersects with a complicated narrative as to how we even interpret the concepts of masculinity and feminity, in which the archetypical man is Working Class(TM), and the archetypical woman is Upper Class(TM), which often feels like it gives men carte blanche to treat women badly but in a way that is ostensibly progressive, even if there is not much actual material difference between the two groups.
You bring up a lot of valid points and I feel like much of the points you brought up dealing with the problematic view points could similarly be said about Disney’s Beauty and the Beast compared to The Princess and the Frog
Yeah, I get the idea... And there's some movies or novels or else that I know are ridden with issues but I still like them. There's a part of me that feels guilty, but you know? While I do continue on reading and watching them, I also let the guilt stay there, to remind myself why that issue is wrong, why I wouldn't act the same as the character, etc.
Love both movies, stories, fictional pieces, make believe pieces of art. Ideas, thoughts are not crimes so someone's thoughts made into a movie, book, show, etc, no matter how vitriol, does not move me. As long as the story is told/shown well, I don't care about any outside implications it may carry. I can suspend belief every time I watch a movie. I, also, know not take any messages from said pieces a fiction to apply to real life. For those of you who can't......do something you enjoy and leave them for people like me to enjoy. Respectfully
I think a good use of "love as a complication" is Love Guaranteed. The characters aren't at odds with each other, and they are both seeking relationships, however, falling in love will cause them to fail at their their current goals. It's a good use of irony.
I'm just going to admit that I live for the "...Shit." reaction to love every time it happens in media, because I too am a messy bitch who lives for drama, and also know well how love has a habit of complicating things.
You missed part of Seven brides for seven brothers that the women from town will have to get married. That's the expected norm of the time so they chose the men they with because they've had time to see them at their worst. But also as they caring for their SIL in her pregnancy. They come to regret their decision to kidnap not just because the Fathers are coming to get them. They know the women's reputation, family connection and autonomy have all been ruined and even if they take them back they'll be outcasts treated poorly in their town community.
The brothers are ashamed repentant and in the end they're the ones forced to submit to the women's wishes to marry without even being asked if they're okey with it.
Yes it's a horrible concept but that is spoken very clearly by Millie. Than all the brothers repeat to themselves and then the women then the women's fathers and the priest when they come in spring.
Yes! This media analysis is what we need! But really, I didn't expect to actually hear from your mother in this video, but I'm so glad we did! I watched the movie Seven Brides as a kid, yet I have no memory of what my reaction was. I'll watch it again and make my own decision about the film, which will probably remain neutral, but hopefully, I'll be able to point out what I like and dislike about the film.
The part about judging morals from opinions on the media we consume: very interesting part for me as I see media as both a way to aspire to better choices or dismay the worst of our selves. and then there are some that is just looking to entertain. but any piece of media has a slant and bias to it that informs the audience how it wants you to look at a certain topic, even if it labels itself as apolitical. now, we can’t judge people based on if they like media that we can’t fundamentally agree with. especially in an age where everyone is divided, the only things that can usually unite everyone is morality. I’m a huge leftist but I’m not gonna hate on someone if they watch 2000’s frat bro comedies and they like it just because I don’t agree with the misogyny and racism inherent in most of the era. HOWEVER, if you like said frat bro comedies specifically because it validates your misogynist and racist beliefs, I am well within my right to criticize that part and how it is detrimental to how we see women and minorities.
TL;DR: you can’t derive judgement on someone based on their opinions in media, but you have the right to point out detrimental behavior in media if it validates someone’s regressive values
Please never stop making videos about your own tastes and interests.
One point I want to make about the women's "choice" at the end. This happens a lot in fiction, particularly (in my observation and opinion only) when men write women characters. Sometimes women characters textually make inconsistent or incomprehensible choices . (Arguably in SB4SB it was consistent with their characters, because their only characterization was wanting to be married, but it kind of amounts to the same thing). So yes you have the woman character saying "I choose this" but at the same time that choice is being written for them by an author, who may have had their own motivations in making that choice happen - often to gratify another character whose story and arc they are more invested in. So in a meta sense they didn't have a choice at all.
Introducing meta commentary does complicate analysis, because how can any character be said to choose anything since the author is choosing everything for everyone? But I think we can ask when examining the text through that lens, who benefits? Are the choices organic to the character's desires? Are those desires explored and explained and do they feel realistic and relatable?
None of this means people should feel bad for enjoying SB4SB. But I don't think "the character chose this, who are you to question their choice?" is a bulletproof argument either.
If you're still reading, thanks for sticking with it. I hope this wasn't an incomprehensible mess.
I hear ya but if this was real life you're forgetting to factor in a little thing called Stockholm syndrome
Thank you for the thoughtful analysis. I watched Seven Brides for Seven Brothers as a child and haven’t seen it since. Every now and then my female friends and I will bring it up as a, man, wasn’t that fucked up? I agree with your assertion regarding being able to love problematic things-for an adult. This was by no means alone in its problematic tropes, but I do occasionally think, what poison I was given to drink as a child.
I feel like emphasizing that it was the women's choice to stay with their captors does not change the misogynistic and toxic ideas of the movies, or if anything makes it worse. Because after everything that occurred in the movie, we all know that the women will not choose to leave. We KNOW that, for a fact based on the movie's progression, themes, and vibes. Its such an empty way to pretend like a toxic or bad thing is actually totally fine because it was "the character's choice". I mean if they chose to leave, think of how different the movie would be. If the women decided this experience was horrible and didnt want to be there any more, this would be a VERY different movie. The two "choices" arent equal in this movie at all. And it is funny to me how movies with terrible messages very often pass off problematic elements as "okay bc its was the characters choice", but rarely ever have that "choice" be the one that ISNT problematic or controversial. Like, a movie like this would never have the women choose to leave, they never have.
So I just felt like that really was not a point in favor of the movie, but rather just a sneaky way that writers of movies like this to make the horrifying truth of the story seem more palatable.
Can you do this conversation but about Licorice Pizza specifically? I left the theatre feeling pretty empty and with a bad taste in my mouth but it seems all of “film Twitter” and Letterboxd think it’s a work of genius and that the film’s condemnation of the central romance is “obvious and textual”.
I never saw 7 Brides for 7 Brothers or knew much about it, but my family had a DVD copy and I always just kinda assumed it was a very strange movie. You just confirmed that I was right. Lol
Do you know Be Kind Rewind? I would LOVE to see collab between the two of you on something... anything...
“This is a bad, creepy movie *enjoyed by bad, creepy people* .” Ummm…NO.
Some people actually have the intellectual ability to view this movie in the CONTEXT of THE TIME THAT IT WAS MADE. Do not mistake your discomfort and anger at this movie to indicate you possess moral superiority. Yes-this is out of step with today’s views of gender roles (or more precisely, the lack of them), but it still holds up as a valid piece of art for having some of the best choreographed and well-executed dance scenes committed onto film.
Even in the context of the time the film was made it was backward when it came to gender question.
That being said, yes, even movies with bad messaging can be enjoyable, but i personally, enjoy trying to understand myself better, by analysing WHY i might enjoy a movie despite it's message being terrible.
Or why others might.
And such an inner monologue often starts with the assumption that ppl enjoying the movie is that they agree with the message, but can evolve.
Which this video does.
I think this is an interesting video, that’s in conversation with a few other videos that I have seen, where liking a piece of media doesn’t mean a wholesale stamp of approval on the morals displayed in that piece of media.
I haven’t seen Overboard but I have seen 7 Brides, I liked it but took it with the understanding that the kidnapping was framed as a wrong move. It’s a complicated work based off of an interesting lineage of art.
Either way, your video was great.
7 Brides ... Stockholm Syndrome.
FYI 7 Brides is my favorite muscial,. I'd like to see it on Broadway if it ever goes back in that direction.
I loved Overboard as a kid. I still have a soft spot for it now in spite of the problematic elements.
I watched seven brides for the first time w my family and we spent the whole pointing out at how messed up it was and yet it was one of the most..fun movies we've ever seen. something about how unapologetically problematic it was is so funny, like this could easily be a horror/thriller but there's a bunch of pastel colors and all these happy little songs
also I really like watching movies with stupid men like these boys were really like "hey I wanna bride lemme just....get one" and then they realize hey this isn't right and immediately apologize.
Wait, wait. There's a vanilla shortage?? ::one google search later:: Oh.
And I think my mom really likes Seven Brides as well. This video wants me to have a good talk with her about movies. Thank you.
Nobody's going to talk about Gideon giving his oldest brother, the guy who raised him, a straight up roasting over how badly Adam messed up as a husband? Because that's a high point of the story for me.
Gideon is easily the best of them. He’s always been my favorite brother.
One of the reasons I think I overlooked the kidnapping/sexism of 7 Brides when I was younger is because of the way women function differently in each setting. Millie has much more autonomy in the mountains than she does as a barmaid. In both the town setting and the rural setting, the girls are commodified by the men around them, but they are depicted as having so much more efficacy and self-determination in that rural setting. Their behaviors are sort of less confined (snow balls with rocks in them, deservedly so). During the kidnapping scene most of the women are needle pointing. The seem like decorative people with a decorative function. Out on the homestead, they are homesteading.
The decisions the women make drive so much of the movie. Millie changes the trajectory of the brothers lives. The other women secure the brothers' lives and arrange their own marriages by outsmarting their own fathers. I feel like I intuitively understood this as a kid but then as I got older and more...detail oriented, I started missing the forest for the trees.
I agree. Society set some pretty severe limitations on them because of their gender, but ultimately they were able to empower themselves.
I also think that movies focus too much on traditionally masculine ways of exerting power (ie beating the crap out of people for a zero sum solution), I think it’s nice to see power shifts in a more traditionally feminine way, with compromise and relationship building.
Also, the dancing is awesome.
Completely agree. I watched this movie all the time growing up, and looking back on it I definitely see the parts that are problematic, but just like you said, Milly handled her situation with grace, forgiveness, and determination. She greatly effected the brothers' lives for the better and has way more autonomy and agency than she did in the bar. And we know that the girls did prefer the brothers to the guys they were "promised" to, which is already a disgusting thing to think about. Kidnapping shouldn't have been the answer but, they clearly like their lives when they have more agency and control.
Kidnapping is still fucked up, but they could've gone back home when the snow thawed if they hated it so much
@@MsDiving1 Jacques d'Ambois, who played the 5th brother Ephraim Pontipee, was actually a professional dancer with the New York City Ballet. He was cast in Seven Brides because he was a professional dancer
Sorry, I know this comment is old but I was rewatching this video and I think you nailed why I like this movie- it’s from a time (the filming and the time period of the film) when women had basically no other option but marriage and homemaking, and in the mountains the girls have a lot of autonomy within that sphere- Milly forbids seven men twice her size from entering the house, and they all listen. She makes them into civilized men and she’s clearly the ‘head of the household’ in a lot of ways, which within the context of the film… I don’t want to call it empowering but she’s not weak. The women are, at least, allowed to make some choice and have some amount of power.
I agree! When she forces them to wash their clothes and shave their faces, she is not being submissive at all. She has forward force ✨️✨️
It makes an immense difference that Seven Brides captures some of the best dancing and choreography committed to film, and Howard Keel and Jane Powell at the peak of their talents.
I was hoping someone was going to mention this! The dancing and choreography is one of my favorite things about the movie, especially the barn-raising scene and the wood-chopping scene.
And with Jacques d'Amboise being a professional dancer with the New York City Ballet, as well, ...
I think the difference is:
Had Overboard had the guy kidnap the rich woman because he had a crush on her and wanted to marry her, it would have been seen as creepy and uncomfortable as Seven Brides. As movie goers we know the story will likely end up there, but the story pretends it is about revenge with a romantic ending. We also spend time watching them fall for each other which justifies many misgiving we might have had. We spend time with the couple.
As for Seven Brides, why some people love it, you need to watch it from a fairytail child perspective and cut out any adult understanding of reality. All the brothers and brides are attractive, all of them decent, the authors and viewers know this, it is rose-tinted, false and idyllic, because it comes from the storypoint that the kindappers and the kidnapped are already written as compatible in the writers/readers mind and they only need to walk the short path to romance to have a blissful happily ever after.
Exactly. The whole point to the barn-raising dance number is to give you this impression that the women from the town and the brothers take a fancy to each other despite the women already having suitors. This is exactly why the girls pay attention to the brothers even while the girls are dancing with their own suitors, and why they end the dance by leaving their suitors to jump into the arms of the brothers. It's meant to convey the impression that during the course of the afternoon, the girls had a nearly "love at first sight" moment with the boys. Just as Milly did the first time she looked at Adam (which is why she so distractedly ladled food into that guys lap instead of his bowl). Naturally, things go awry when the townsmen push the boys into having a brawl, mostly out of jealousy that "their girls" are suddenly making eyes at other men. Given the fact that boys don't get to go anywhere near the girls after the kidnapping, and that we know they are there for several months, the implication is that as the girls came to know the brothers better, they fell back on that initial attraction to the boys.
Compare that to Overboard where a man gaslights and emotionally tortures a woman--who admittedly was a bitch, that's true, but at this particular moment is in a weakened mental state and has no idea who she is or what friends and family, if any, she can turn to--and does it all out of revenge. Getting her to do the chores around his house and deal with the kids because he's fed up and doesn't want to (and seemingly never had to when his wife was alive) doesn't help him recoup any financial loss from the job she stiffed him on. It's just for kicks. And yeah, he *does* have sex with her, after he's gaslighted her into believing she is his wife. Granted, not right away, it's at least a few weeks later, but still...she has developed these feelings for him under false pretenses.
My mom loves both these movies, and on a recent rewatch of Overboard, I saw a lot about Overboard that made me uncomfortable and not liking Russell's character very much. And the whole thing was so "macho revenge fantasy" in the beginning that I never could find much to laugh at. At least with Seven Brides, there is a touch of unreality to it.
Another thing is the amnesia thing and her husband abandoning her.
She was confused and not in terror like in ‘Seven Brides’
@@Skye_Writer Well, to be fair to Russell's character, he had to work and couldn't afford someone to watch his kids while he was out. Hawn's character had stiffed him out of the money to feed his family and care for them. The revenge aspect was there, but it was also a solution and a way for him to earn money to take care of his family, while leaving them to be cared for by someone who considered themselves their mom. She'd behaved in a completely inhuman manner, so it's understandable that he doesn't consider her humanity at first. The fact that he does try to tell her the truth and make up for what he did, but is stymied by his kids, is his own redemption arc there.
This. This is a fantastic viewpoint to take that explains so much.
I was 11 (1996) when we watched this in music class, and even then my class was pretty disgusted with the premise
I absolutely agree that we need to stop treating people's media preferences as a way to scry into their deepest souls and moral beliefs. One of my very favorite books is The Bone People by Keri Hulme, and I'm always a little afraid to say so. It makes you empathize with a child abuser, the child he beats, and the community that looks the other way. But it also immerses you in the perspective of the Maori people and those who are caught uncomfortably between Maori and colonizer ancestry, and it does it in breathtaking language, and I wish more people were willing to give it a chance instead of just writing it off because good and evil are not clearly marked out for them.
Same one of my favorite books is Lolita and I always have to follow it up with an entire explanation of the book so they don't think I'm evil lol
I note that this logic is never applied to murder mysteries.
I've never told anyone I know how impressed I was with Kevin Bacon's film _The Woodman,_ and how I could see what his character was going through. Why? Because he plays a convicted pedophile. The story is told from his point of view, and it's about what happens after he's released on parole. It's a brilliant film with a great plot and great acting, but of course it disappeared after its theatrical run, and nobody EVER talks about it. But it's so worth watching if you want to understand something about how these guys' minds work. (The point of the story is that he ends up redeeming himself in a surprising way.)
@@maristiller4033 omg same! The reputation that Lolita has is the complete opposite of what the book is actually about
@@zoe_astra yeah it's why I hate all the adaptations. Complete opposite of what Nabokov was going for....
I did not come expecting to hear that sweet mother-son conversation at the end, but I am here for it. When you can talk to your mom about movies like that, you know you share a good relationship. Warms my heart.