jono walker He admitted he's 14, I don't think we have to pile virgin jokes on him. He just needs to learn to word himself to not sound the worst type of pseudo-intellectual.
I’m 8 years late to watching this and I have say that I was shocked to see that such a well thought out, in-depth and high quality review was uploaded in 2014! You, sir, were ahead of your time!
This is by far the best thought-out and most well spoken review of this game I've ever heard. Thank you for taking the time to do a proper job when looking critically at this game.
I find it strange that people don't understand why all the violence in Bioshock Infinite ties greatly into the story. Booker is a violent character and you see how his brutal killings ultimately affect Elizabeth. You also see how Booker copes with his violence. Violence is baked into the narrative and it is delicious.
I loved all of your points; it's like having someone say everything you think but so much more eloquently! I really enjoyed BioShock Infinite and while there are a lot of things I would have loved to see more of (how cool would it be to have been able to enter and explore the tears in time or go back and worth at will?) I think it was very well put together and the story was great. I haven't yet played the DLC everyone is raving about...
Your speech and the way you approach topics is brilliant. It's great to see someone take this kind of laid-back, informative stance when bringing up hot subject matter involving video games. And the way you explain things is just wonderful. Keep up the good work, Satchell.
I think you are misinterpreting the backlash against Infinite by not taking into account the many diverse voices of dissent. You seem to be citing the reviews of, for lack of a better word, mainstream publications and rarely anything else? For instance, you do not talk about why some critics have called this game racist at all. It went far beyond accusing a lack of respect towards areas of social complexity. The problem was not that Bioshock Infinite did not talk about race beyond superficial scratches, which, by the way, there is no evidence to the contrary in this video, the problem was the false equivalency between white supremacists and their vicims, a racially coded labor revolution that borrowed from the imagery of both Russian and French revolutions but was clearly in a situation similar to African-American slavery. The problem was the portrayal of Daisy Fitzroy and her revolution, and how infantile the "oh, they are just as bad" conclusion at the end of it was. It was absolutely ridiculous. Worse, how they made an alternative version of Booker the martyr of HER revolution. It reeks of tropes. White savior, damsel in distress, pushing African-Americans to the margins of their own revolutions, false equivalencies, ridiculous attempted murder of a child to make her suddenly super evil. Urgh. No. Just no. It did not earn anything but that is for a full-blown article, not for a YT comment. Check out Cameron Kunzelman's compiliations of articles on Bioshock Infinite or roam Critical Distance to find more on why some people genuinely felt that this game did not represent the human experience in way that was honest or evocative at all.
No, he wants to respond to the backlash opposing Bioshock Infinite and those 'niche' reviews, which are neither reviews nor niche, are important to get the complete picture. This is one-sided and just one perspective.
Philip Scheidemann I think the Daisey Fitzroy "they're just as bad" situation and her crimes may have been a response to the way Daisey herself was treated. I think there is enough motive for that to happen in reality, as she has a heavily emotional personality. In this way I think those scenes demonstrate how difficult equality is to achieve when we all want revenge.
The martyr of her revolution thing is the only thing I can agree with but to be fair he in that universe did so much to stop Comstock, an outsider comes in with the mark of the false Shepard and in some messianic crusade almost toppled the established rulership and in doing so helped the revolution. But her murdering the child isnt a bloodlust but an act by fitzroy set up by the luteces to make Elizabeth into a woman or whatever they wanted. And in real life right now we see the "they are just as bad" thing because right now in the political climate police are being demonized for their oppression and blatant misuse of power with racism being a very hot topic right now, but rather than achieving equality or causing reform through peaceful means people riot, burn, and loot in the streets advocating for "peace and equality." In real life we've even seen a pseudo columbia/rapture in the Capitol hill autonomous zone; where the people seceded from the state and created their own "country" through removing U.S government influence and installing their own economy, goods and services, and police force. All in the name of equality and peace, in doing so multiple children were murdered by their "police force" they created, businesses were closed with little to no regulation of cash flow, and they installed even more racism by excluding whites from their goods and services leaving the white people in that community with an automatic disadvantage. The world and it's near infinite conflicts are never as simple as "good guys vs bad guys" there is people and their evil.
Absolutely fantastic breakdown. Extremely mature and thoughtful commentary on racism, and how media lags behind *because* of its desperation to pick up that picket sign and *prove* its worth. Extremely glad KiteTales lead me to thatonevideogamer, and even more glad I took the time to click through to other content. Much love from Blighty
This is seriously the best review AGAINST the backlash of the game and one of the best reviews of the game PERIOD. I've been studying this game since it released and read hundreds of pieces about it, but in just a few minutes you've made even more things stand out to me. THANK YOU for this great, great, piece. You've won yourself a subscriber, sir.
I got this game for like $20 a few weeks ago, and I dig it. I'm not a shooter fan, but I loved the atmosphere, art style, setting, characters, and story. I think of it as $20 well spent.
"Amateur enthusiast press?" Satch please, you're the most deeply articulate individual in the field. I am consistently awed by every video that you make. As far as I'm concerned, you're the best in the industry now that Sess is gone. The only thing amateur about your observations is the amount of exposure you currently have, which will surely change in the years to come. Thanks again for another fantastic video.
My only gripe with the game was that it seemed like I only ever had to use like 4 particular guns and I was able to get through the game. Everything else though, story, characters, the themes presented, etc, was a treat to experience.
Satch is on another tier of reviewer. God tier. I can actually focus on the video because of all of the vocabulary. I find myself trying to keep up and comprehend the review, so I never start to drone out.
It really feels good to see a well-spoken brotha making it onto the TH-cam gaming review and commentary scene; to see a face that more closely resembles mine. I recognize more than most how tiring it could be to have ones race being brought under the spotlight so forgive me if this is the case, but to see you on this scene without having to play up to stereotypes or make constant references to your race for cheap laughs and get the kind of attention you deserve for creating content with these really impressive, well-formalized, well-written and well-vocalized arguments that stir up discussion; it really does bring me enough joy that I compulsively feel the need to draft up this comment. I've been a quite consumer of this ever growing online video game culture for 3 years. I frequent sites like The Escapist, ScrewAttack; I watch Normal Boots content, Hidden Block content, Machinima, Lets Plays and all that jazz; I absolutely soak this stuff up because I love and can relate to the passion that comes from it, but I don't think I've ever seen too many people, if any at all, that I can say look like me and come from the same place as me. I very much hope you continue to prosper and I hope to see more of it. Much love. :)
I love your videos, it's so refreshing to see someone talk about video games as a legitimate form of entertainment and story telling, much in the same way as other critics would discuss a movie or even a book.
I think it's hard to point to ludonarrative dissonance when I don't think most people can even agree to what the hell the narrative was about. First off, I want to be clear about how I use ludonarrative dissonance. Dissonance doesn't mean that the two parts weren't in opposition to each other. Dissonance just means they don't align. Now. What was the narrative about? A warning about how a utopia for some might not be utopia for everyone? That extremism is bad in any direction? That fighting the majority is just if you (think you) are right? is it about booker and elizabeth and their relationship? Is it about time? is it about how you will inevitably have to pick a side in big agendas? It's a fucking mess. Sure you're closer to ludonarrative harmony depending on which you decide to use as a comparative metric, but what was the gameplay about? Ludicly it's about one thing: Shooting. That's what you did. Oh, and hanging from skylines. Does the narrative and gameplay align? Simply put: not on all fronts. And not with the themes I would actually be interested in.
The game is about powerlessness? The combat isn't meant to be justified by any of those things you're saying the narrative is about. Booker is a guilt-ridden thug kidnapping a girl for money. He kills people because he's given up on himself long ago and is used to that level of violence. It's that simple!
Love all you videos man! Seriously, please keep them coming. You have such an amazing approach and style to your review's, essays, and discussions I cannot help but want more. You are one of my very favorites. Keep doing what you are doing Satchel!
On the touchy subject of racism...it was actually racism that brought me to your channel, particularly the awful comments section of the Terraria Hardcore videos you participated in with PBG. I didn't mind that you were mostly quiet in the series, I'm a quiet person too who prefers to ruminate on my thoughts before expressing them, but aside from of the blatant and racist toxicity, people said you didn't bring anything to the table. So I went to your channel to get an idea of who you were and what kinds of videos you made. I subscribed nearly immediately. Your thoughtful and intelligent commentary about games are a breath of fresh air in the stagnant landscape of predominantly white, young, and angry TH-camrs yelling about everything and seemingly thinking about nothing. Thank you for being you and doing what you do!
Hes so good at pointing out those important little details that can make a game great. Hope to see A LOT more of this series from you! Fantastic reviews!
My gosh. The cupped hands analogy is SO accurate. I see this on many boards and forums. It's a desperation of older journalists and gamers going into their 30's. They really want games to prop up to the cynics who refuse to call games art. And you know what? Respectfully, I think they're doing more harm than good. Propping up a game, or any sort of media, to mean something to hold as a standard or something to rally around can be unfair to the piece in question. I think the best part about this is how you describe the racism and treatment of it. It's so good because it plays into the strongest thing games can do. It's compartmentalization. The racism, the unsettling nature of Columbia is (part) of the game. That's really important. The game is about Booker and Elizabeth, not about racism, not about violence, not about weird science/magic physics. Those are all things there, but it's not the focus. A player has agency in a game, simply choosing whether to pay attention to something, or walk by and completely ignore it. Games as an interactive medium can have a lot more latitude in the ways they approach things in how they're presented to the player. Just like in Gone Home, Metroid Prime, Dark Souls, or Majora's Mask. There is an element of Diegetic storytelling in all of those games.
Fantastic work, Satch! RE: Racism, your points are dead-on. Even beyond video game culture activism is growing and people are being enchanted by this idea that by speaking up with purpose they can force change. While this is by no means bad, not everything can be a 'statement' in the sense that it's revelatory. Normalcy is what defeats bigotry; when interracial couples aren't noticed for being interracial, when women are just as normal a choice for executives as men, that's when bigotry dies. Paraphrasing from an episode of The Boondocks: hatred cannot exist where there is peace.
Please continue to make quality content. You are rapidly becoming my favorite games journalist, because you're expressing ideas that never would have occurred to me otherwise.
Here's the thing though: Infinite was a game that WANTED to progress games. It was made and marketed to be the gaming equivalent of a Kubrick film. It is a game that sees itself as a smart game, that sees itself as art. So, if we approach it from that view, it failed at it's principle task. It didn't set up enough context, it didn't make any statements, it didn't innovate or move somewhere we haven't been 100 times before. We had been promised Kubrick, but we got Inception instead.
Agreed. One of the best things I ever heard was a comment by Gene Roddenberry prior to the airing of Star Trek The Next Generation. He was asked in an interview why in the 24th century male pattern baldness would not be cured. Roddenberry's answer was simple. "By the 24th Century no one will care enough to cure it.". At the core, the key to equality is simply not caring if someone has a specific trait or not...
Though I've not played this game, (and likely will not, as my parents dissaprove of me playing 'M' rated games and games with high amounts of violence) I still enjoyed this video. Your apt descriptions, and varied use of words makes it very enjoyable to listen to/watch. I'm going to consider your points on review more often when I make review games and discuss them.
It's so good to see a black TH-camr. I've been meaning to say that for awhile, Satchbag, because more diversity on TH-cam is always good, and seeing your content in my inbox always makes me smile. I think Anti-Semantics might be one of my favorite video series on TH-cam.
I sort of get the impression that Satchel's point is that ludonarrative dissonance isn't a problem here because it just doesn't matter and we shouldn't expect so much of BI. I completely disagree though, I think ludonarrative dissonance is a real problem with any game and shouldn't be looked over so easily. It's not just about violence, it's about the story and internal logic not being consistent (usually changing between cutscenes and the actual game) I don't think BI is guilty of it at all though. Booker commits horrible acts of violence throughout and this is in keeping with his character because he is a bad guy who has a history of this. By the end we start to see that no matter which path he takes in life, he always goes on to kill many people because that's his character.
I want to focus on your stance on "ludo narrative dissonance". Justifying an excessive amount of violence by saying "because I'm in a war" is a weak argument. You like to compare and contrast different mediums frequently, so I will mention works like Metal Gear Solid, Full Metal Jacket, and The Things They Carried, which explore war but do not put a heavy emphasis on the violence. They are carefully written and explore the growth of characters. The excessive violence in Bioshock: Infinite did not make sense for the sole purpose of Booker's character. And sorry for the **SPOILER**, but his actions at the Wounded Knee Massacre: scalping Native Americans, and then after seeking a baptism with the intent of cleansing his sins (which you are forced to accept), then going back to killing in this game before his realization that "religion is bad", it just does not make sense. Ludo narrative dissonance definitely exists in this game, and I don't blame the game design choice, as this would make sense to keep the original formula of the Bioshock games, I blame the story.
When I was at your stream I had a feeling you were going to talk about this topic. Very well said like always, I'll have to play bioshock infinite to absorb this video further. Also I think you should continue singing for your end cards your voice is beautiful.
This may seem like an oversimplification, but I think Infinite let me down so much purely due to the idyllic portrayal of Columbia, vs the dystopia of Rapture. In Rapture, it made sense to run around with a gun shooting people. In Columbia, it made less and less sense, until I finally just stopped being able to invest myself. Bioshock felt like a gripping experience, whereas Infinite felt like a game.
I too just played Infinite recently, I think it was really underrated. It dealt with settings and themes I haven't seen in fiction period and I loved every second of it.
Ludonarrative Dissonance is very important as a subject. It deals with the problems inherent in game design and storytelling in games (namely the Illusion of Choice vs the Illusion of Control). Most of the games I grew up with had terrible dissonace, but so does much of the music classified as Rock or Trance - you don't have to consider Dissonance as "baggage", instead you can choose to embrace it and realize that it can make or break the experience depending on how well the delivered content delivers that experience. Game Design has its own rules for Harmony and Melody - to ignore that would be foolish for video games as an art form or as a science - in the same way as it is for Music. Or, if you prefer Film, consider the casting of a star who doesn't fit into the narrative he's supposed to be a part of. It isn't always a bad thing, as some "bad" movies can be really "good".
Hey Satchel, I love your channel, keep up the great work. Seriously best thing I've found on youtube since I stumbled across needledrop a few years ago.
While playing Bioshock Infinite I certainly recognized the discord between being a morally righteous protagonist while still being a mass murderer. At certain points of the game you are given clear and distinct moments where you are able to inflict pain on someone or walk away. This is then followed by putting holes in dozens of people. Which is fine, unto itself, but in the next scene the characters continue on as if nothing has happened and Booker is still playing the morally righteous character. When noticing this contrast, I don't see myself as holding up the game to an unrealistic standard, moreover I simply want a sense of continuity between gameplay and story. Perhaps if Booker showed more remorse for killing his pursuers, or change the character to where he is more at home with this sort of carnage. What emerged from that contrast was, from a literary perspective, something jarring.
I don't recall a moment where Booker was a morally righteous character though. I knew from the beginning that I was assuming the role of a terrible, terrible person. Some of the crap Booker says throughout the game makes it pretty obvious that he's not morally righteous at all. Also, Booker was fired from the Pinkerton's for use of excessive violence. He slaughtered a tribe of Natives after being pushed into it by his comrades. And later you find out he himself is part Native, bullied into it by a pure white society, which becomes part of his guilt. Liz later points out just how full of shit Booker and Comstock both are as well. "Is this where YOU start moralizing, Booker?"
Sad to say that I'm hugely disappointed with this episode. Full of empty rhetoric and meaningless garnish; it runs in total opposition to the mission statement of the show. I disagree with you on pretty much every point, but that's irrelevant; the arguments here are actually expressed very poorly. Additionally, as someone who has sat on both sides of the designer/critic divide (to varying capacities), I have to say your fundamental dismissal of the very term "ludonarrative dissonance" is neither smart nor becoming.
The thing with the term "Ludonarrative Dissonance" is that, though it is a problem that everyone has to face (and many don't - looking at you SquareEnix), it is also a term that is overused and wielded like a club against anyone who believes that games can (and in many ways have) progress as an art form. There is actually very little in the gameplay of Infinite that detracts from the story, and as such, I view this game as one of those times when people simply want to run around parroting the term "Ludonarrative Dissonance" in order to make themselves sound smart.
Monument Gaming This just isn't true though, or even consistent; games can't progress as an art form unless we take analysis and critique seriously, which means not giving creators a free pass on things that don't work, or run in opposition to the themes of the piece, because the specific failing just happens to be established videogame trope. Tim Rogers of Action Button wrote an amazing piece on BioShock infinite that I suggest you read. It details very thoroughly the problems with how gameplay and story interact in Infinite, although he uses the term "ludonarrative interference".
Additionally we're getting away from the fact that BioShock Infinite's story isn't actually terribly clever or well-written anyway. Perhaps most notably, the non-ending, which essentially foregoes actually resolving any of the threads of the story so that Ken Levine can have a big wank instead.
I totally agree on the point you made of your frame of mind when playing a game, or consuming media of any type. If you watch a movie with criticism in mind it detracts from the experience. If you go into a game thinking to yourself "What does the developer want me to think?" it destroys your ability to actually experience the media.
Dat sexy Satch at the end tho. I would still love your spoiler-heavy interpretation/review of Infinite, even though this video was pretty entertaining for itself.
Ludonarrative dissonance... Never has there been a more pointless word used in the gaming industry. All it means is the mechanics don't match up with the story in a medium where story should be secondary to the gameplay. It's rather ridiculous that the gaming press has put so much focus on it when what matters is if the story itself is good and the gameplay is enjoyable. Sure, it's distracting when it happens, but t shouldn't ruin a game for anyone. Speaking for only myself, the best kind of games are those that use gameplay to tell a story, not lengthy cinematics, thus, focusing on both components without sacrificing one for the other.
***** Ludo narrative dissonance is not a pointless term because video games have become a medium where storytelling is equal to game play. In Megaman I don't really care why I'm shooting at robots and trying to defeat Dr. Wily, because Megaman is a more game play focused game. When I play Max Payne I like to know why I'm shooting millions of people and why Max is doing the thing he does.
AnalCentipede The funny thing about max Payne: the developers intentionally designed the game around the disconnect between max in the "story" (brooding, drug addled cop with a broken life) and max in the game (super human berserker, nothing stands in his way). Applying "ludo narrative dissonance" to max Payne is either naive or disingenuous (in most cases). However, the term works well in discussing imfinite. The message of redemption and leaving the past are in deep conflict with the murder arenas constantly presented to the player. Infinite is heavily inspired by absurdism, so maybe that explains the disconnect, but the combat is painfully mediocre. Had infinite been a bit more like gone home or system shock 2, the problem would be much less jarring.
NCRonrad The narrative disconnect in Max Payne was partly why I used the games as an example. I agree with what you say about Infinite being a story of redemption and then having Booker slaughter large amounts of people. In the first game I didn't feel this disconnect because these people were insane and would stop at nothing to kill me, the citizens of Columbia were racist and sort of creepy, but they weren't insane murderers. The gameplay was also dumb.
AnalCentipede Very true. I somehow misinterpreted your Max Payne statement. The question of Max's story-game disconnect is unique to games medium. I wouldn't call the gameplay in infinite "dumb" (though it's not improper to do so), merely "Halo like" (while missing the fun of halo).
Really interesting. You knock it out of the park again. I've always felt a bit unsure on the issue of race in this game. I do kind of agree with people when they say it wasn't handled as well as it could have been. That it needed deeper exploration and did come off as not really having had enough focus to really get across the point it seemed like it was trying to. Yet at the same time it doesn't feel token or like a caricature. They didn't reduce it down to stereotypes and simply saying "Racism is bad, mmkay?" They do paint it with more depth and respect than that, but at the same time it feels sidelined for the focus on Booker and Elizabeth, while simultaneously trying to make it seem like a central theme of the game. It seems that way in the intro of the game at least. Totally agree on the ludonarrative dissonance stuff though. People loved to trot out that phrase for this game because it was violent and they wanted something to sling at it. I spoke to several people who told me without irony that simply the inclusion of violence was enough to say the game had that dissonance, and that a violent game by definition can't be "smart". Lots of nonsense like that. It's totally wrong though, because it perfectly fits. Infinite is about violence and ugliness in so many ways. It makes total sense for the gameplay to be very violent. But what that means is now "ludonarrative dissonance" has an unfair stigma attached to it. Now it's seen as just a phrase that people who want to pretend to be smart pull out of their arse to criticise violent games without any good reason for it. But that's unfair. Ludonarrative dissonance is still a thing, no matter how wrongly ascribed it may be, and it can seriously damage the atmosphere or potential for immersion in a game. As well as being the reason for a hugely missed opportunity to do something really interesting with mechanics and storytelling. Nice singing too.
I love watching these analyses you give about video games. We need more channels and videos like this! Please look at The Last of Us or Shadow of the Colossus next!
It totally creates Ludonarrative Dissonance. Booker regrets Wounded Knee-- but then turns around and kills literally two hundred times the amount of people he killed. And then Elizabeth, who was stunned by the first kill, is completely unfazed with every single other murder-- of course, until the attempted child murder. And Fitzroy was turned evil simply to make you fight more enemies. Anyone who argues differently is just kidding themselves. :/
I think the ludonarrative dissonance is pretty straightforwardhere, though. Not only was the game about racism, it was also about violence. They straight up murdered anyone who didn't believe in Columbia's ideology. It was all about hyperaggressive persuasion. The game posed that violence isn't the answer, and had you use violence to put your point across. One could argue that the enemy were clearly "deserving" of their capital punishment, but that's because our ideals are instilled much as their ideals were instilled into them (even though ours are provably more virtuous). The other bit was digging through trash cans for scraps. This made sense in Bioshock, where the theme was surviving a hostile environment that saw fit to make scrap out of you. Columbia didn't provide that same sense of "kill or be killed" threat, instead favoring a more "crapsaccharine world." What was the point of the vigors? In Bioshock, they meant something, but they're kind of thrown into this game. They don't convey meaning like they did before. This is more of the "we expected more" entitlement, and less of a ludonarrative dissonance, but it would've been nice to find a way to tie it in.
+TikiShades Keep in mind that Booker is a trained killer who entered Columbia to kidnap some girl. His brutality accentuates the 'violence is bad' narrative, rather than contradicts it. And the game explained where vigors came from--Columbia stole them from Bioshock 1. There's even a nice little metanarrative about it.
@@Necroskull388 He's not asking where the vigors come from. He's asking why they're even in the game. It is only for Service to the Brand and game design that they are included. This game series that posed itself as a virtual tour of society gone wrong is now just creating a mythical fantasy world for fun. And while it *is fun, it doesn't contribute anything to the core narrative besides "Bad men are even more bad because they steal technology."
This was a great look into gaming and its community as a whole when it comes to modern games. Great video. Hey, ummmm, what was that part at the end about?
It's hard to take any view on this games story that doesn't look at the ending. The themes and ideas weren't marred by gameplay as much as they are by a story assassination via quantum mechanics. How does anything matter, when you jump from one world to the next and damn the consequences? You literally shape your reality around you to get to point A to B, so nothing matters.
To an extent, yes, but that complaint only happens when searching for the weapons about midway through the game (and in my opinion, that was the weakest part of the narrative) however, do you remember the worlds you went to? You crossed at least 3 Colombias and Rapture. The first one was your basic Colombia, the second was steeped in Civil War, and the last was raining bombs down on New York City. Each city was vastly different than the last, and that was part of the point of the quantum mechanics - showing different worlds to build up to Elizabeth becoming something of an inter-dimensional assassin. Also with the quantum mechanics came the God-like quality of the Lutece twins in which they became the Cheshire cat that helped move the story forward. The point of the story wasn't so much Booker's journey through Coloumbia, instead it was Booker coming to terms with what he had done to Elizabeth, Comstock paying for his crimes against humanity via colombia, and the morally questionable inter dimensional mission of Elizabeth. The quantum mechanics were the story.
Monument Gaming Yes, they were pretty backdrops and there was a notable rise in tension through them, which you could draw conclusions from. My point is there's never any return to one reality, they want to get out and they just bleed from one reality to the next without care, and in the end, they escape? All the side characters become props, their situation, demeanor, and overall character change or cease to exist with each jump. This could be a VERY powerful storytelling tool, and mechanic if you A) had to interact with them in any way and not just view them as you slide by. Or B) really explore the differences that lead up to these changes in character. Instead we get this bizzare split on Booker that rings hollow by the end of the game because it doesn't matter. That's why I find this game so frustrating from a narrative standpoint, it was close to being cool, and there's tons of amazing design sound, and technical expertise, even if the mechanics were stripped down from the first. But the story? The build up and scope was set, then it fails to ever pay off on any of it's threads once you realize that if you have the power to make anything happen, nothing matters.
I see your point, and it is a frustration I have to this day with the game. However, I wouldn't say that nothing matters. Like I said before, the point of the game wasn't the moment to moment events of any given Colombia, but instead the overarching narrative of Elizabeth's journey to take revenge on Comstock. Ultimately, the end goal was achieved and Elizabeth offed both Booker and Comstock and was clearly headed off to other realities to do the same. If the game wanted to be a narrative about the politics within Colombia, then the main character probably would have been a native of Colombia as opposed to this outside force which is willing to break down any barrier to achieve his goal. The game never really indicated anything else to be a central element of the plot. Colombia was always intended as a backdrop, and to complain about it being anything else seems a little unfair to me. However, I will agree that the jumping from one world to the next was not only a little jarring, but it also hurt the overarching narrative in that Booker and Elizabeth ended up killing a completely different Comstock than the one that they started out going after and the game kinda ignores that fact. And that is annoying as hell because its like the writer(s?) forgot that you had moved from one reality to another.
Monument Gaming I think you're making good points, but here's the crutch then: If all roads of choice are taken by Booker/Comstock through all realities, isn't she just choosing her own narrative on a whim?
In a way, yea, she is. One of the things I took out of this game (And ESPECIALLY when I played the DLC) is the question of Elizabeth's morality. She is on this rage-fueled quest of vengeance in the end, but is she in the right as she busts through the very barriers of reality on her quest for vengeance? She is also pressing forward with a single-minded intensity paying no heed to what condition she leaves the world she passes through in, and only the Lutece Twins seem to be attempting to mitigate the damage to each of these worlds.
To loosely quote Adam Sessler. violence is just as natural in our medium as it was during those grotesque plays and animal fights at the Globe Theatre. It's just the norm, and although it is getting a bit excessive, we are already showing progress that games are capable of so much more than gunfights.
Can I say, you are the only critic I respect. I think critics do this because they have nothing to lose taken from Ratatouille's Anton Ego's review by the end of the movie. However you, you have found the balance, you feed philosophy and critical thinking to an audience who shy's away from that. You challenge the mindset similar to that of a ship in the video game audience to branch out and adventure and find your own set of Values. What is it that makes a good game? One must ask Spyro the Dragon is a good game Bioshock Infinite is a good game, But they are no where near the same. And that is something we must figure out through ingenuity and what the message is. Thank you Satchel for making me think like this.
I'm still waiting for the right circumstances to play BioShock Infinite, but I must say, well-expressed. I like my phonetics and your lexicon is a pleasant listen.
I heard something similar about the game from Extra Credits. They said that the games violence was not without reason, but they said that it felt slightly excessive; this is because the original Bioshock took place in rapture- an abandoned city full of mutated psychopaths. You had to fight to survive. In this game, though, you fight through a successful, populated city, and shoot up its inhabitants.
I just came back to this video, Satch. And you are totally right when it comes to the entitlement. Ok. Infinite wasn't a revolution. But at what point was that promised? I think expectations were set to a standard that no game could ever meet.
Just stumbled upon your videos. I like 'em! And you articulate points so well! I find it concerning how it would seem that many gaming journalists only want a certain niche genre of games for them only. I could boil down most rants against the game to, "it simply wasn't for me," and that is absolutely FINE, but that really isn't criticism. Is misinterpretation of the game's narrative the fault of the developers or the player? I guess with Infinite, such questions will start being asked. And that's pretty awesome when you think about it. Games have come a LONG way, and recent master narrative strokes like Infinite, the Last of Us, Gone Home, the Walking Dead, and more are signs that the coming years for gaming are going to be divisive and exciting.
I disagreed with most of your points but I subscribed anyway because it was still an extremely interesting watch. This is definitely one of the most forward thinking game videos I've ever seen and I'm interested to see more.
I've been arguing against the Dissonance in Infinite forever. I think people often miss the crucial backstory of Booker; he was at Wounded Knee, partially responsible for the killings of hundreds of civilian Native Americans, and was in fact famous for his brutality, burning them alive or scalping them. His FIRST instinct when he meets resistance in Columbia is casual murder, because Booker is a born and bred killer and has been for years. The violence is inherent to his history and his character. Also, I feel like people forget that in the first Bioshock you slaughtered hundreds of insane drug addicts. In Infinite it feels worse because the people you're killing are in their right mind and also largely law enforcement, but again I think that it doesn't matter to someone like Booker. It's just another job, and really killing seems to be the only thing he's good at.
I think people miss the backstory of Booker because it's not very compelling or believable. We're told that he's a drunk, and that he has a troubled past. But in the way we, the player, interact with him, he's just a Quake marine. It was a lot of telling me how things are, but showing me something different. The reality of the gameplay is gonna win out over a few lines of dialogue.
keithmpire Phil and Frederik have a point.. Booker Dewitt's character is a no-nonsense cold-hearted merc/hitman type of character he does what he needs to do to get to point A to point B. Although it may not sound believable cause not many people meet people like that, but there are people like that in real life. And just what everyone else said he has a past that haunts him, subconsciously he's looking for resolve so throughout the story so you flash back every now as his character evolves and then remembering things he choose to forget previously to cope. I feel they could have given more back story for Dewitt but majority rules and a lot of times most gamers like gameplay usually.
One problem I had with the game was the constant murder and while it makes sense to Booker, I don't think it would make sense for a girl who has been trapped in her room so long to be okay with so much death. Why did she keep following him? I think his ideas a still really great tho.
at first i thought oh great ANOTHER bioshock infinite review but after watching im glad i gave it a chance i pretty much agree with everything you said.
It's funny that you brig this up as your next video after the zen one, because I think the exploratory, peaceful sections of infinite were some of my zen-ist in a while. And while I completely agree with you on the racism, and I loved this game, there's something to be said about the contrast between combat and plot there. I don't know if this is what people mean by whatever-dissonance, but the combat was not fulfilling in itself here. I played those parts to "unlock" the next story. It gave the game an arcadey feel that I'm pretty sure it wasn't meant to have.
I agree with you about all of the subtext about the game. The story was great and shouldn't be criticized. There was a lot to explore and I enjoyed taking my time with the quiet parts of the game. For me the real problem with this game comes with the combat: 1) No stealth (hence no replayability) - In BS1 I could set up traps and lead control fights, in infinite I run around wildly and play in a way that seems more like Halo. Every fighting scene seems like an arena shooter with no variation in how you do it. Fights in BS1 were controllable. In infinite you can switch vigors and your two generic weapons, but it always feels the same and you end up using the same combos all of the time. I don't feel compelled to relive the experience because the action is all the same. With more weapons, like in BS1, you could mix things up and ammo was scarce enough that you couldn't get through the game using the same gun the whole way. These leads me on to my next gripe: 2) Generic weapons. BS1 had a great arsenal that made the game. Infinite had common pistols, shotties, and semi/automatic rifles. It regressed into COD with set-piece battles and dull weapons. BS1 had its common weapons but different ammo types turned rockets into mines and bolts into tripwires. The various ammo types had a rock/paper/scissors effect on enemy types. Do the expansions fix these issues? It's what turned me off of buying them. I will eventually get them on a steam sale, just for the story.
Preach. I remember Jim Sterling putting together a piece on the abuse of the term "Ludonarrative Dissonance" that further delves into what you bring up here. He, too, brings up how it was justified even in the big picture with Bioshock Infinite due to some of the themes the game attempts to explore. (No personal experience, just referencing the relevant words of others) But let's be real, here-- if art is meant to exist in a vacuum, not for financial reward or critical acclaim, would it be far off to say that in NOT exploring controversy to the extent that many wished it would and in NOT removing some of the louder, less thoughtful portions of the game despite many believing that these made it somehow less important actually only further justifies it as an art piece?* *Maybe... Or maybe not. (Decisions in games being made purely for artistic reasons are still rare in the industry, so for a big-budget triple-A title like this, I wouldn't be too eager to jump at that claim. Still an interesting question, though.)
If you have completed the game, and have 37 minutes to spare, I would highly recommend watching this video on the game. It might just change your mind: Bioshock Infinite Critique
You should have like 2 million subs the contend you creat is top of the top literally for me the videos you make a in the 1% of grate content on TH-cam
I really enjoyed this game myself, I understand that a lot of people did not, however I've always valued complexities in gaming, and having put in 110% effort into this one I found some interesting things about what made this game the way it is. I think a lot of people were confused as to how Booker became 2 different people, as well as some plot holes that my have not fit well with the storyline, however I found extra "voxophones" explaining a lot of why these things happened the way they did, had I not found those vox boxes I probably would have been confused and disappointed with the game myself.
It wasn't until that theater scene that I realized everyone I had seen was white. Like...it never once jumped out at me as strange. It was in that moment that the game had me. Much like the "kindly" moment of the original, just much sooner. I thought it was a lovely game and do not regret buying the CE edition at all. Great video.
Really enjoyed this discussion. I've been seeing so many people lambast Infinite simply for being a shooter, or for not specifically discussing race enough and I couldn't quite articulate why I disagreed with these people. Your thoughts have gone a long way in allowing me to further my own understanding of my reaction and thoughts regarding Infinite.
The dissonance I found in the game focused mre on daisy and Comstock than booker. We supposedly have two adept political manipulators struggling for control, but towards the end of the game, they both drop everything to throw piles and piles of grunts at Booker. Truth be told, that's the solution for much of the game. While either leader could easily have turned large chunks of the populace against him, they don't. they don't set up traps, or even try to buy booker off, or anything else. It diminished both of them from believable characters you could sort of understand, to homicidal maniacs. In Comstock's case, that might be ok, but for daisy...
Though I'd feel I will still agree with MatthewMatosis critique on Bioshock Infinite more. However for someone defending Bioshock Infinte you did a great job. Your opinion was well detailed and articulated as well. To a point where I can't find a fault in your opinion at all. (Perhaps with the exception of calling Elizabeth a "local" to Columbia, I doubt being locked up in a tower for all your life really counts you as being a local. She's as much new to this world as Booker to be fair.) Overall though a well made video.
God DAMN, Satch. You're too good at explaining more or less everything. Ever.
Cyoar!
agreed
***** "an aroma of intelligence"
LOL okay stop.
jono walker He admitted he's 14, I don't think we have to pile virgin jokes on him.
He just needs to learn to word himself to not sound the worst type of pseudo-intellectual.
jono walker That's a bit rude don't you think? Are you just pissed he disagreed with you? That seems awfully petty.
I’m 8 years late to watching this and I have say that I was shocked to see that such a well thought out, in-depth and high quality review was uploaded in 2014!
You, sir, were ahead of your time!
This is by far the best thought-out and most well spoken review of this game I've ever heard. Thank you for taking the time to do a proper job when looking critically at this game.
I find it strange that people don't understand why all the violence in Bioshock Infinite ties greatly into the story. Booker is a violent character and you see how his brutal killings ultimately affect Elizabeth. You also see how Booker copes with his violence. Violence is baked into the narrative and it is delicious.
I loved all of your points; it's like having someone say everything you think but so much more eloquently! I really enjoyed BioShock Infinite and while there are a lot of things I would have loved to see more of (how cool would it be to have been able to enter and explore the tears in time or go back and worth at will?) I think it was very well put together and the story was great.
I haven't yet played the DLC everyone is raving about...
Your speech and the way you approach topics is brilliant. It's great to see someone take this kind of laid-back, informative stance when bringing up hot subject matter involving video games. And the way you explain things is just wonderful.
Keep up the good work, Satchell.
I think you are misinterpreting the backlash against Infinite by not taking into account the many diverse voices of dissent. You seem to be citing the reviews of, for lack of a better word, mainstream publications and rarely anything else?
For instance, you do not talk about why some critics have called this game racist at all. It went far beyond accusing a lack of respect towards areas of social complexity. The problem was not that Bioshock Infinite did not talk about race beyond superficial scratches, which, by the way, there is no evidence to the contrary in this video, the problem was the false equivalency between white supremacists and their vicims, a racially coded labor revolution that borrowed from the imagery of both Russian and French revolutions but was clearly in a situation similar to African-American slavery. The problem was the portrayal of Daisy Fitzroy and her revolution, and how infantile the "oh, they are just as bad" conclusion at the end of it was. It was absolutely ridiculous. Worse, how they made an alternative version of Booker the martyr of HER revolution. It reeks of tropes. White savior, damsel in distress, pushing African-Americans to the margins of their own revolutions, false equivalencies, ridiculous attempted murder of a child to make her suddenly super evil. Urgh. No. Just no. It did not earn anything but that is for a full-blown article, not for a YT comment. Check out Cameron Kunzelman's compiliations of articles on Bioshock Infinite or roam Critical Distance to find more on why some people genuinely felt that this game did not represent the human experience in way that was honest or evocative at all.
He was focusing on the mainstream reviewers, if he had to respond to every niche review out there he'd never finish.
No, he wants to respond to the backlash opposing Bioshock Infinite and those 'niche' reviews, which are neither reviews nor niche, are important to get the complete picture. This is one-sided and just one perspective.
Philip Scheidemann I think the Daisey Fitzroy "they're just as bad" situation and her crimes may have been a response to the way Daisey herself was treated. I think there is enough motive for that to happen in reality, as she has a heavily emotional personality. In this way I think those scenes demonstrate how difficult equality is to achieve when we all want revenge.
This is what this video needed and the reply I looked hard for I'm so surprised this man of color got it so wrong but I dunno we all learn and grow
The martyr of her revolution thing is the only thing I can agree with but to be fair he in that universe did so much to stop Comstock, an outsider comes in with the mark of the false Shepard and in some messianic crusade almost toppled the established rulership and in doing so helped the revolution. But her murdering the child isnt a bloodlust but an act by fitzroy set up by the luteces to make Elizabeth into a woman or whatever they wanted. And in real life right now we see the "they are just as bad" thing because right now in the political climate police are being demonized for their oppression and blatant misuse of power with racism being a very hot topic right now, but rather than achieving equality or causing reform through peaceful means people riot, burn, and loot in the streets advocating for "peace and equality." In real life we've even seen a pseudo columbia/rapture in the Capitol hill autonomous zone; where the people seceded from the state and created their own "country" through removing U.S government influence and installing their own economy, goods and services, and police force. All in the name of equality and peace, in doing so multiple children were murdered by their "police force" they created, businesses were closed with little to no regulation of cash flow, and they installed even more racism by excluding whites from their goods and services leaving the white people in that community with an automatic disadvantage. The world and it's near infinite conflicts are never as simple as "good guys vs bad guys" there is people and their evil.
7years later ,do you still think that crash discrimination was unrealistically frequent
Absolutely fantastic breakdown.
Extremely mature and thoughtful commentary on racism, and how media lags behind *because* of its desperation to pick up that picket sign and *prove* its worth.
Extremely glad KiteTales lead me to thatonevideogamer, and even more glad I took the time to click through to other content.
Much love from Blighty
Thanks for the video satch!
this was amazing. I truly adore your videos.
the fuck?
You are seriously one of the best Game themed youtubers on here. I don't know how to describe this channel it's just really great!
This is seriously the best review AGAINST the backlash of the game and one of the best reviews of the game PERIOD. I've been studying this game since it released and read hundreds of pieces about it, but in just a few minutes you've made even more things stand out to me. THANK YOU for this great, great, piece. You've won yourself a subscriber, sir.
And honestly this is the first video I've watched of yours... I will now be frequenting your channel. Very well spoken, I look forward to seeing more!
Gosh darn I love you so much Satch !! You are making really high-quality content it's just incredible every single video.
I got this game for like $20 a few weeks ago, and I dig it. I'm not a shooter fan, but I loved the atmosphere, art style, setting, characters, and story. I think of it as $20 well spent.
"Amateur enthusiast press?" Satch please, you're the most deeply articulate individual in the field. I am consistently awed by every video that you make. As far as I'm concerned, you're the best in the industry now that Sess is gone. The only thing amateur about your observations is the amount of exposure you currently have, which will surely change in the years to come. Thanks again for another fantastic video.
My only gripe with the game was that it seemed like I only ever had to use like 4 particular guns and I was able to get through the game. Everything else though, story, characters, the themes presented, etc, was a treat to experience.
Satch is on another tier of reviewer. God tier. I can actually focus on the video because of all of the vocabulary. I find myself trying to keep up and comprehend the review, so I never start to drone out.
It really feels good to see a well-spoken brotha making it onto the TH-cam gaming review and commentary scene; to see a face that more closely resembles mine. I recognize more than most how tiring it could be to have ones race being brought under the spotlight so forgive me if this is the case, but to see you on this scene without having to play up to stereotypes or make constant references to your race for cheap laughs and get the kind of attention you deserve for creating content with these really impressive, well-formalized, well-written and well-vocalized arguments that stir up discussion; it really does bring me enough joy that I compulsively feel the need to draft up this comment. I've been a quite consumer of this ever growing online video game culture for 3 years. I frequent sites like The Escapist, ScrewAttack; I watch Normal Boots content, Hidden Block content, Machinima, Lets Plays and all that jazz; I absolutely soak this stuff up because I love and can relate to the passion that comes from it, but I don't think I've ever seen too many people, if any at all, that I can say look like me and come from the same place as me. I very much hope you continue to prosper and I hope to see more of it. Much love. :)
I love your videos, it's so refreshing to see someone talk about video games as a legitimate form of entertainment and story telling, much in the same way as other critics would discuss a movie or even a book.
Great job Satchell! =] I agree wholeheartedly. I was honestly confused at the amount of backlash this game got.
Goddamn, man. You are incredibly well spoken and your opinion came across very clearly.
Subscribed. Can I subscribe twice? No? Damn.
I think it's hard to point to ludonarrative dissonance when I don't think most people can even agree to what the hell the narrative was about.
First off, I want to be clear about how I use ludonarrative dissonance. Dissonance doesn't mean that the two parts weren't in opposition to each other. Dissonance just means they don't align.
Now. What was the narrative about?
A warning about how a utopia for some might not be utopia for everyone?
That extremism is bad in any direction?
That fighting the majority is just if you (think you) are right?
is it about booker and elizabeth and their relationship?
Is it about time?
is it about how you will inevitably have to pick a side in big agendas?
It's a fucking mess. Sure you're closer to ludonarrative harmony depending on which you decide to use as a comparative metric, but what was the gameplay about?
Ludicly it's about one thing:
Shooting.
That's what you did. Oh, and hanging from skylines.
Does the narrative and gameplay align? Simply put: not on all fronts. And not with the themes I would actually be interested in.
The game is about powerlessness?
The combat isn't meant to be justified by any of those things you're saying the narrative is about.
Booker is a guilt-ridden thug kidnapping a girl for money. He kills people because he's given up on himself long ago and is used to that level of violence. It's that simple!
Love all you videos man! Seriously, please keep them coming. You have such an amazing approach and style to your review's, essays, and discussions I cannot help but want more. You are one of my very favorites. Keep doing what you are doing Satchel!
That ending though
On the touchy subject of racism...it
was actually racism that brought me to your channel, particularly the
awful comments section of the Terraria Hardcore videos you
participated in with PBG. I didn't mind that you were mostly quiet in
the series, I'm a quiet person too who prefers to ruminate on my
thoughts before expressing them, but aside from of the blatant and
racist toxicity, people said you didn't bring anything to the table.
So I went to your channel to get an idea of who you were and what
kinds of videos you made. I subscribed nearly immediately. Your
thoughtful and intelligent commentary about games are a breath of
fresh air in the stagnant landscape of predominantly white, young,
and angry TH-camrs yelling about everything and seemingly thinking
about nothing. Thank you for being you and doing what you do!
That was a wonderful comment. I know I'm not Satch, but still. That was just a lovely thing to read. You keep on keepin' on, Aerisg!
Hes so good at pointing out those important little details that can make a game great. Hope to see A LOT more of this series from you! Fantastic reviews!
My gosh. The cupped hands analogy is SO accurate. I see this on many boards and forums. It's a desperation of older journalists and gamers going into their 30's. They really want games to prop up to the cynics who refuse to call games art. And you know what? Respectfully, I think they're doing more harm than good.
Propping up a game, or any sort of media, to mean something to hold as a standard or something to rally around can be unfair to the piece in question.
I think the best part about this is how you describe the racism and treatment of it. It's so good because it plays into the strongest thing games can do. It's compartmentalization. The racism, the unsettling nature of Columbia is (part) of the game. That's really important. The game is about Booker and Elizabeth, not about racism, not about violence, not about weird science/magic physics. Those are all things there, but it's not the focus. A player has agency in a game, simply choosing whether to pay attention to something, or walk by and completely ignore it. Games as an interactive medium can have a lot more latitude in the ways they approach things in how they're presented to the player. Just like in Gone Home, Metroid Prime, Dark Souls, or Majora's Mask. There is an element of Diegetic storytelling in all of those games.
Fantastic work, Satch!
RE: Racism, your points are dead-on. Even beyond video game culture activism is growing and people are being enchanted by this idea that by speaking up with purpose they can force change. While this is by no means bad, not everything can be a 'statement' in the sense that it's revelatory. Normalcy is what defeats bigotry; when interracial couples aren't noticed for being interracial, when women are just as normal a choice for executives as men, that's when bigotry dies.
Paraphrasing from an episode of The Boondocks: hatred cannot exist where there is peace.
Please continue to make quality content. You are rapidly becoming my favorite games journalist, because you're expressing ideas that never would have occurred to me otherwise.
I really enjoyed all the points that you made about the game's racism theme and it's dissonance. Great vid
Yeah, Satchell doesn't carry any baggage!
... wait...
Here's the thing though: Infinite was a game that WANTED to progress games. It was made and marketed to be the gaming equivalent of a Kubrick film. It is a game that sees itself as a smart game, that sees itself as art. So, if we approach it from that view, it failed at it's principle task. It didn't set up enough context, it didn't make any statements, it didn't innovate or move somewhere we haven't been 100 times before. We had been promised Kubrick, but we got Inception instead.
Oh and Satch, I loves the video. First video I have seen from you. Quess what bro?
SUBSCRIBED!
Agreed. One of the best things I ever heard was a comment by Gene Roddenberry prior to the airing of Star Trek The Next Generation. He was asked in an interview why in the 24th century male pattern baldness would not be cured. Roddenberry's answer was simple. "By the 24th Century no one will care enough to cure it.". At the core, the key to equality is simply not caring if someone has a specific trait or not...
Though I've not played this game, (and likely will not, as my parents dissaprove of me playing 'M' rated games and games with high amounts of violence) I still enjoyed this video. Your apt descriptions, and varied use of words makes it very enjoyable to listen to/watch. I'm going to consider your points on review more often when I make review games and discuss them.
It's so good to see a black TH-camr. I've been meaning to say that for awhile, Satchbag, because more diversity on TH-cam is always good, and seeing your content in my inbox always makes me smile. I think Anti-Semantics might be one of my favorite video series on TH-cam.
I sort of get the impression that Satchel's point is that ludonarrative dissonance isn't a problem here because it just doesn't matter and we shouldn't expect so much of BI. I completely disagree though, I think ludonarrative dissonance is a real problem with any game and shouldn't be looked over so easily. It's not just about violence, it's about the story and internal logic not being consistent (usually changing between cutscenes and the actual game) I don't think BI is guilty of it at all though. Booker commits horrible acts of violence throughout and this is in keeping with his character because he is a bad guy who has a history of this. By the end we start to see that no matter which path he takes in life, he always goes on to kill many people because that's his character.
You win the prize. :]
I want to focus on your stance on "ludo narrative dissonance". Justifying an excessive amount of violence by saying "because I'm in a war" is a weak argument. You like to compare and contrast different mediums frequently, so I will mention works like Metal Gear Solid, Full Metal Jacket, and The Things They Carried, which explore war but do not put a heavy emphasis on the violence. They are carefully written and explore the growth of characters. The excessive violence in Bioshock: Infinite did not make sense for the sole purpose of Booker's character. And sorry for the **SPOILER**, but his actions at the Wounded Knee Massacre: scalping Native Americans, and then after seeking a baptism with the intent of cleansing his sins (which you are forced to accept), then going back to killing in this game before his realization that "religion is bad", it just does not make sense. Ludo narrative dissonance definitely exists in this game, and I don't blame the game design choice, as this would make sense to keep the original formula of the Bioshock games, I blame the story.
Booker doesn't accept the baptism though :/
Poisoning the well about the concept of ludonarrative dissonance was not a good move.
When I was at your stream I had a feeling you were going to talk about this topic. Very well said like always, I'll have to play bioshock infinite to absorb this video further.
Also I think you should continue singing for your end cards your voice is beautiful.
This may seem like an oversimplification, but I think Infinite let me down so much purely due to the idyllic portrayal of Columbia, vs the dystopia of Rapture. In Rapture, it made sense to run around with a gun shooting people. In Columbia, it made less and less sense, until I finally just stopped being able to invest myself. Bioshock felt like a gripping experience, whereas Infinite felt like a game.
Satchbag's videos are easily one of the most well produced content in all TH-cam.
I too just played Infinite recently, I think it was really underrated. It dealt with settings and themes I haven't seen in fiction period and I loved every second of it.
Another amazing commentary good sir. :) I really hope a lot of people get to subscribe to your channel and see your works.
Well deserved praise and admiration aside... THAT ENDSLATE! I'll be in line when Satchbag's Grooves side-channel launches...
Ludonarrative Dissonance is very important as a subject. It deals with the problems inherent in game design and storytelling in games (namely the Illusion of Choice vs the Illusion of Control). Most of the games I grew up with had terrible dissonace, but so does much of the music classified as Rock or Trance - you don't have to consider Dissonance as "baggage", instead you can choose to embrace it and realize that it can make or break the experience depending on how well the delivered content delivers that experience.
Game Design has its own rules for Harmony and Melody - to ignore that would be foolish for video games as an art form or as a science - in the same way as it is for Music.
Or, if you prefer Film, consider the casting of a star who doesn't fit into the narrative he's supposed to be a part of. It isn't always a bad thing, as some "bad" movies can be really "good".
Amazing editing, awesome script and fantastic visual and audio quality. Overall, a brilliant video! Thanks for the insight. :-)
My reaction to new Satchbag videos: Oh awesome! I wonder if he's done using seizure inducing visual transitions... nope.
Hey Satchel, I love your channel, keep up the great work. Seriously best thing I've found on youtube since I stumbled across needledrop a few years ago.
While playing Bioshock Infinite I certainly recognized the discord between being a morally righteous protagonist while still being a mass murderer. At certain points of the game you are given clear and distinct moments where you are able to inflict pain on someone or walk away. This is then followed by putting holes in dozens of people. Which is fine, unto itself, but in the next scene the characters continue on as if nothing has happened and Booker is still playing the morally righteous character.
When noticing this contrast, I don't see myself as holding up the game to an unrealistic standard, moreover I simply want a sense of continuity between gameplay and story. Perhaps if Booker showed more remorse for killing his pursuers, or change the character to where he is more at home with this sort of carnage. What emerged from that contrast was, from a literary perspective, something jarring.
I don't recall a moment where Booker was a morally righteous character though. I knew from the beginning that I was assuming the role of a terrible, terrible person. Some of the crap Booker says throughout the game makes it pretty obvious that he's not morally righteous at all. Also, Booker was fired from the Pinkerton's for use of excessive violence. He slaughtered a tribe of Natives after being pushed into it by his comrades. And later you find out he himself is part Native, bullied into it by a pure white society, which becomes part of his guilt. Liz later points out just how full of shit Booker and Comstock both are as well. "Is this where YOU start moralizing, Booker?"
Sad to say that I'm hugely disappointed with this episode. Full of empty rhetoric and meaningless garnish; it runs in total opposition to the mission statement of the show.
I disagree with you on pretty much every point, but that's irrelevant; the arguments here are actually expressed very poorly.
Additionally, as someone who has sat on both sides of the designer/critic divide (to varying capacities), I have to say your fundamental dismissal of the very term "ludonarrative dissonance" is neither smart nor becoming.
I completely agree as well.
The thing with the term "Ludonarrative Dissonance" is that, though it is a problem that everyone has to face (and many don't - looking at you SquareEnix), it is also a term that is overused and wielded like a club against anyone who believes that games can (and in many ways have) progress as an art form. There is actually very little in the gameplay of Infinite that detracts from the story, and as such, I view this game as one of those times when people simply want to run around parroting the term "Ludonarrative Dissonance" in order to make themselves sound smart.
Monument Gaming This just isn't true though, or even consistent; games can't progress as an art form unless we take analysis and critique seriously, which means not giving creators a free pass on things that don't work, or run in opposition to the themes of the piece, because the specific failing just happens to be established videogame trope.
Tim Rogers of Action Button wrote an amazing piece on BioShock infinite that I suggest you read. It details very thoroughly the problems with how gameplay and story interact in Infinite, although he uses the term "ludonarrative interference".
Additionally we're getting away from the fact that BioShock Infinite's story isn't actually terribly clever or well-written anyway.
Perhaps most notably, the non-ending, which essentially foregoes actually resolving any of the threads of the story so that Ken Levine can have a big wank instead.
I'll go check that piece out, but while I am at it: In what way does the ending not resolve the threads of the story?
Way, WAY too underrated. Jesus Satch, I'm simply speechless.
A fascinating point. It contrasts so much with Errant Signal's portayal of the game.
That drunk in love at the end XD
I totally agree on the point you made of your frame of mind when playing a game, or consuming media of any type. If you watch a movie with criticism in mind it detracts from the experience. If you go into a game thinking to yourself "What does the developer want me to think?" it destroys your ability to actually experience the media.
Great work once again Satchell! I totally agree with you in terms of dissonance, people just gotta have fun.
Dat sexy Satch at the end tho.
I would still love your spoiler-heavy interpretation/review of Infinite, even though this video was pretty entertaining for itself.
Ludonarrative dissonance... Never has there been a more pointless word used in the gaming industry. All it means is the mechanics don't match up with the story in a medium where story should be secondary to the gameplay. It's rather ridiculous that the gaming press has put so much focus on it when what matters is if the story itself is good and the gameplay is enjoyable. Sure, it's distracting when it happens, but t shouldn't ruin a game for anyone. Speaking for only myself, the best kind of games are those that use gameplay to tell a story, not lengthy cinematics, thus, focusing on both components without sacrificing one for the other.
***** Ludo narrative dissonance is not a pointless term because video games have become a medium where storytelling is equal to game play. In Megaman I don't really care why I'm shooting at robots and trying to defeat Dr. Wily, because Megaman is a more game play focused game. When I play Max Payne I like to know why I'm shooting millions of people and why Max is doing the thing he does.
AnalCentipede The funny thing about max Payne: the developers intentionally designed the game around the disconnect between max in the "story" (brooding, drug addled cop with a broken life) and max in the game (super human berserker, nothing stands in his way). Applying "ludo narrative dissonance" to max Payne is either naive or disingenuous (in most cases).
However, the term works well in discussing imfinite. The message of redemption and leaving the past are in deep conflict with the murder arenas constantly presented to the player. Infinite is heavily inspired by absurdism, so maybe that explains the disconnect, but the combat is painfully mediocre.
Had infinite been a bit more like gone home or system shock 2, the problem would be much less jarring.
NCRonrad The narrative disconnect in Max Payne was partly why I used the games as an example. I agree with what you say about Infinite being a story of redemption and then having Booker slaughter large amounts of people. In the first game I didn't feel this disconnect because these people were insane and would stop at nothing to kill me, the citizens of Columbia were racist and sort of creepy, but they weren't insane murderers. The gameplay was also dumb.
AnalCentipede Very true. I somehow misinterpreted your Max Payne statement. The question of Max's story-game disconnect is unique to games medium.
I wouldn't call the gameplay in infinite "dumb" (though it's not improper to do so), merely "Halo like" (while missing the fun of halo).
NCRonrad More COD like. Halo games actually have very well designed and have surprisingly open game play.
Really interesting. You knock it out of the park again.
I've always felt a bit unsure on the issue of race in this game. I do kind of agree with people when they say it wasn't handled as well as it could have been. That it needed deeper exploration and did come off as not really having had enough focus to really get across the point it seemed like it was trying to. Yet at the same time it doesn't feel token or like a caricature. They didn't reduce it down to stereotypes and simply saying "Racism is bad, mmkay?" They do paint it with more depth and respect than that, but at the same time it feels sidelined for the focus on Booker and Elizabeth, while simultaneously trying to make it seem like a central theme of the game. It seems that way in the intro of the game at least.
Totally agree on the ludonarrative dissonance stuff though. People loved to trot out that phrase for this game because it was violent and they wanted something to sling at it. I spoke to several people who told me without irony that simply the inclusion of violence was enough to say the game had that dissonance, and that a violent game by definition can't be "smart". Lots of nonsense like that. It's totally wrong though, because it perfectly fits. Infinite is about violence and ugliness in so many ways. It makes total sense for the gameplay to be very violent.
But what that means is now "ludonarrative dissonance" has an unfair stigma attached to it. Now it's seen as just a phrase that people who want to pretend to be smart pull out of their arse to criticise violent games without any good reason for it. But that's unfair. Ludonarrative dissonance is still a thing, no matter how wrongly ascribed it may be, and it can seriously damage the atmosphere or potential for immersion in a game. As well as being the reason for a hugely missed opportunity to do something really interesting with mechanics and storytelling.
Nice singing too.
just found this channel by accident. Great Accident! auto subscribed! keep it up
I love watching these analyses you give about video games. We need more channels and videos like this! Please look at The Last of Us or Shadow of the Colossus next!
It totally creates Ludonarrative Dissonance.
Booker regrets Wounded Knee-- but then turns around and kills literally two hundred times the amount of people he killed.
And then Elizabeth, who was stunned by the first kill, is completely unfazed with every single other murder-- of course, until the attempted child murder.
And Fitzroy was turned evil simply to make you fight more enemies. Anyone who argues differently is just kidding themselves. :/
I think the ludonarrative dissonance is pretty straightforwardhere, though. Not only was the game about racism, it was also about violence. They straight up murdered anyone who didn't believe in Columbia's ideology. It was all about hyperaggressive persuasion. The game posed that violence isn't the answer, and had you use violence to put your point across. One could argue that the enemy were clearly "deserving" of their capital punishment, but that's because our ideals are instilled much as their ideals were instilled into them (even though ours are provably more virtuous). The other bit was digging through trash cans for scraps. This made sense in Bioshock, where the theme was surviving a hostile environment that saw fit to make scrap out of you. Columbia didn't provide that same sense of "kill or be killed" threat, instead favoring a more "crapsaccharine world."
What was the point of the vigors? In Bioshock, they meant something, but they're kind of thrown into this game. They don't convey meaning like they did before. This is more of the "we expected more" entitlement, and less of a ludonarrative dissonance, but it would've been nice to find a way to tie it in.
+TikiShades Keep in mind that Booker is a trained killer who entered Columbia to kidnap some girl. His brutality accentuates the 'violence is bad' narrative, rather than contradicts it.
And the game explained where vigors came from--Columbia stole them from Bioshock 1. There's even a nice little metanarrative about it.
@@Necroskull388 He's not asking where the vigors come from. He's asking why they're even in the game. It is only for Service to the Brand and game design that they are included. This game series that posed itself as a virtual tour of society gone wrong is now just creating a mythical fantasy world for fun. And while it *is fun, it doesn't contribute anything to the core narrative besides "Bad men are even more bad because they steal technology."
This was a great look into gaming and its community as a whole when it comes to modern games. Great video. Hey, ummmm, what was that part at the end about?
It's hard to take any view on this games story that doesn't look at the ending. The themes and ideas weren't marred by gameplay as much as they are by a story assassination via quantum mechanics. How does anything matter, when you jump from one world to the next and damn the consequences? You literally shape your reality around you to get to point A to B, so nothing matters.
To an extent, yes, but that complaint only happens when searching for the weapons about midway through the game (and in my opinion, that was the weakest part of the narrative) however, do you remember the worlds you went to? You crossed at least 3 Colombias and Rapture. The first one was your basic Colombia, the second was steeped in Civil War, and the last was raining bombs down on New York City. Each city was vastly different than the last, and that was part of the point of the quantum mechanics - showing different worlds to build up to Elizabeth becoming something of an inter-dimensional assassin. Also with the quantum mechanics came the God-like quality of the Lutece twins in which they became the Cheshire cat that helped move the story forward. The point of the story wasn't so much Booker's journey through Coloumbia, instead it was Booker coming to terms with what he had done to Elizabeth, Comstock paying for his crimes against humanity via colombia, and the morally questionable inter dimensional mission of Elizabeth. The quantum mechanics were the story.
Monument Gaming Yes, they were pretty backdrops and there was a notable rise in tension through them, which you could draw conclusions from. My point is there's never any return to one reality, they want to get out and they just bleed from one reality to the next without care, and in the end, they escape? All the side characters become props, their situation, demeanor, and overall character change or cease to exist with each jump. This could be a VERY powerful storytelling tool, and mechanic if you A) had to interact with them in any way and not just view them as you slide by. Or B) really explore the differences that lead up to these changes in character. Instead we get this bizzare split on Booker that rings hollow by the end of the game because it doesn't matter.
That's why I find this game so frustrating from a narrative standpoint, it was close to being cool, and there's tons of amazing design sound, and technical expertise, even if the mechanics were stripped down from the first. But the story? The build up and scope was set, then it fails to ever pay off on any of it's threads once you realize that if you have the power to make anything happen, nothing matters.
I see your point, and it is a frustration I have to this day with the game. However, I wouldn't say that nothing matters. Like I said before, the point of the game wasn't the moment to moment events of any given Colombia, but instead the overarching narrative of Elizabeth's journey to take revenge on Comstock. Ultimately, the end goal was achieved and Elizabeth offed both Booker and Comstock and was clearly headed off to other realities to do the same. If the game wanted to be a narrative about the politics within Colombia, then the main character probably would have been a native of Colombia as opposed to this outside force which is willing to break down any barrier to achieve his goal. The game never really indicated anything else to be a central element of the plot. Colombia was always intended as a backdrop, and to complain about it being anything else seems a little unfair to me.
However, I will agree that the jumping from one world to the next was not only a little jarring, but it also hurt the overarching narrative in that Booker and Elizabeth ended up killing a completely different Comstock than the one that they started out going after and the game kinda ignores that fact. And that is annoying as hell because its like the writer(s?) forgot that you had moved from one reality to another.
Monument Gaming I think you're making good points, but here's the crutch then: If all roads of choice are taken by Booker/Comstock through all realities, isn't she just choosing her own narrative on a whim?
In a way, yea, she is. One of the things I took out of this game (And ESPECIALLY when I played the DLC) is the question of Elizabeth's morality. She is on this rage-fueled quest of vengeance in the end, but is she in the right as she busts through the very barriers of reality on her quest for vengeance? She is also pressing forward with a single-minded intensity paying no heed to what condition she leaves the world she passes through in, and only the Lutece Twins seem to be attempting to mitigate the damage to each of these worlds.
To loosely quote Adam Sessler. violence is just as natural in our medium as it was during those grotesque plays and animal fights at the Globe Theatre.
It's just the norm, and although it is getting a bit excessive, we are already showing progress that games are capable of so much more than gunfights.
Can I say, you are the only critic I respect. I think critics do this because they have nothing to lose taken from Ratatouille's Anton Ego's review by the end of the movie. However you, you have found the balance, you feed philosophy and critical thinking to an audience who shy's away from that. You challenge the mindset similar to that of a ship in the video game audience to branch out and adventure and find your own set of Values.
What is it that makes a good game?
One must ask
Spyro the Dragon is a good game
Bioshock Infinite is a good game,
But they are no where near the same.
And that is something we must figure out through ingenuity and what the message is.
Thank you Satchel for making me think like this.
I'm still waiting for the right circumstances to play BioShock Infinite, but I must say, well-expressed. I like my phonetics and your lexicon is a pleasant listen.
I heard something similar about the game from Extra Credits. They said that the games violence was not without reason, but they said that it felt slightly excessive; this is because the original Bioshock took place in rapture- an abandoned city full of mutated psychopaths. You had to fight to survive. In this game, though, you fight through a successful, populated city, and shoot up its inhabitants.
Suggestion; set up hyperlinks to the specific topics. wonderfully written and well thought out.
So good man! As always, really. Your writing is mindful and well thought out, it really is inspiring.
I just came back to this video, Satch. And you are totally right when it comes to the entitlement.
Ok.
Infinite wasn't a revolution. But at what point was that promised? I think expectations were set to a standard that no game could ever meet.
Just stumbled upon your videos. I like 'em! And you articulate points so well!
I find it concerning how it would seem that many gaming journalists only want a certain niche genre of games for them only. I could boil down most rants against the game to, "it simply wasn't for me," and that is absolutely FINE, but that really isn't criticism.
Is misinterpretation of the game's narrative the fault of the developers or the player? I guess with Infinite, such questions will start being asked. And that's pretty awesome when you think about it. Games have come a LONG way, and recent master narrative strokes like Infinite, the Last of Us, Gone Home, the Walking Dead, and more are signs that the coming years for gaming are going to be divisive and exciting.
I disagreed with most of your points but I subscribed anyway because it was still an extremely interesting watch. This is definitely one of the most forward thinking game videos I've ever seen and I'm interested to see more.
Gotta love the sound check at the end xD
Man if you made an in depth analysis of this game I would lose my mind.
You videos are awesome
I've been arguing against the Dissonance in Infinite forever. I think people often miss the crucial backstory of Booker; he was at Wounded Knee, partially responsible for the killings of hundreds of civilian Native Americans, and was in fact famous for his brutality, burning them alive or scalping them. His FIRST instinct when he meets resistance in Columbia is casual murder, because Booker is a born and bred killer and has been for years. The violence is inherent to his history and his character.
Also, I feel like people forget that in the first Bioshock you slaughtered hundreds of insane drug addicts. In Infinite it feels worse because the people you're killing are in their right mind and also largely law enforcement, but again I think that it doesn't matter to someone like Booker. It's just another job, and really killing seems to be the only thing he's good at.
I think people miss the backstory of Booker because it's not very compelling or believable. We're told that he's a drunk, and that he has a troubled past. But in the way we, the player, interact with him, he's just a Quake marine. It was a lot of telling me how things are, but showing me something different. The reality of the gameplay is gonna win out over a few lines of dialogue.
keithmpire Phil and Frederik have a point.. Booker Dewitt's character is a no-nonsense cold-hearted merc/hitman type of character he does what he needs to do to get to point A to point B. Although it may not sound believable cause not many people meet people like that, but there are people like that in real life. And just what everyone else said he has a past that haunts him, subconsciously he's looking for resolve so throughout the story so you flash back every now as his character evolves and then remembering things he choose to forget previously to cope. I feel they could have given more back story for Dewitt but majority rules and a lot of times most gamers like gameplay usually.
Just discovered this video and your channel. Great work! Keep it up!
One problem I had with the game was the constant murder and while it makes sense to Booker, I don't think it would make sense for a girl who has been trapped in her room so long to be okay with so much death. Why did she keep following him? I think his ideas a still really great tho.
at first i thought oh great ANOTHER bioshock infinite review but after watching im glad i gave it a chance i pretty much agree with everything you said.
Couldn't have said it better myself, Satch! SLAM DUNK!
It's funny that you brig this up as your next video after the zen one, because I think the exploratory, peaceful sections of infinite were some of my zen-ist in a while. And while I completely agree with you on the racism, and I loved this game, there's something to be said about the contrast between combat and plot there. I don't know if this is what people mean by whatever-dissonance, but the combat was not fulfilling in itself here. I played those parts to "unlock" the next story. It gave the game an arcadey feel that I'm pretty sure it wasn't meant to have.
I agree with you about all of the subtext about the game. The story was great and shouldn't be criticized. There was a lot to explore and I enjoyed taking my time with the quiet parts of the game. For me the real problem with this game comes with the combat:
1) No stealth (hence no replayability) - In BS1 I could set up traps and lead control fights, in infinite I run around wildly and play in a way that seems more like Halo. Every fighting scene seems like an arena shooter with no variation in how you do it. Fights in BS1 were controllable. In infinite you can switch vigors and your two generic weapons, but it always feels the same and you end up using the same combos all of the time. I don't feel compelled to relive the experience because the action is all the same. With more weapons, like in BS1, you could mix things up and ammo was scarce enough that you couldn't get through the game using the same gun the whole way. These leads me on to my next gripe:
2) Generic weapons. BS1 had a great arsenal that made the game. Infinite had common pistols, shotties, and semi/automatic rifles. It regressed into COD with set-piece battles and dull weapons. BS1 had its common weapons but different ammo types turned rockets into mines and bolts into tripwires. The various ammo types had a rock/paper/scissors effect on enemy types.
Do the expansions fix these issues? It's what turned me off of buying them. I will eventually get them on a steam sale, just for the story.
Preach.
I remember Jim Sterling putting together a piece on the abuse of the term "Ludonarrative Dissonance" that further delves into what you bring up here. He, too, brings up how it was justified even in the big picture with Bioshock Infinite due to some of the themes the game attempts to explore. (No personal experience, just referencing the relevant words of others)
But let's be real, here-- if art is meant to exist in a vacuum, not for financial reward or critical acclaim, would it be far off to say that in NOT exploring controversy to the extent that many wished it would and in NOT removing some of the louder, less thoughtful portions of the game despite many believing that these made it somehow less important actually only further justifies it as an art piece?*
*Maybe... Or maybe not. (Decisions in games being made purely for artistic reasons are still rare in the industry, so for a big-budget triple-A title like this, I wouldn't be too eager to jump at that claim. Still an interesting question, though.)
If you have completed the game, and have 37 minutes to spare, I would highly recommend watching this video on the game. It might just change your mind:
Bioshock Infinite Critique
You should have like 2 million subs the contend you creat is top of the top literally for me the videos you make a in the 1% of grate content on TH-cam
I ADORE your stuff.
Thanks alot for doing this, really!
Your rendition of Drunk in love is fantastic
i think i just watched a video with the american stephen fry in it?
dude this earned my subscription. Graphic designer and smart.
I really enjoyed this game myself, I understand that a lot of people did not, however I've always valued complexities in gaming, and having put in 110% effort into this one I found some interesting things about what made this game the way it is. I think a lot of people were confused as to how Booker became 2 different people, as well as some plot holes that my have not fit well with the storyline, however I found extra "voxophones" explaining a lot of why these things happened the way they did, had I not found those vox boxes I probably would have been confused and disappointed with the game myself.
I love your singing at the end.
It wasn't until that theater scene that I realized everyone I had seen was white.
Like...it never once jumped out at me as strange. It was in that moment that the game had me. Much like the "kindly" moment of the original, just much sooner.
I thought it was a lovely game and do not regret buying the CE edition at all.
Great video.
brilliantly explored...i appreciate all of your ideas
Really enjoyed this discussion. I've been seeing so many people lambast Infinite simply for being a shooter, or for not specifically discussing race enough and I couldn't quite articulate why I disagreed with these people. Your thoughts have gone a long way in allowing me to further my own understanding of my reaction and thoughts regarding Infinite.
Cherios didnt pull the add they stuck to their guns and i admire them for it
The dissonance I found in the game focused mre on daisy and Comstock than booker. We supposedly have two adept political manipulators struggling for control, but towards the end of the game, they both drop everything to throw piles and piles of grunts at Booker. Truth be told, that's the solution for much of the game. While either leader could easily have turned large chunks of the populace against him, they don't. they don't set up traps, or even try to buy booker off, or anything else. It diminished both of them from believable characters you could sort of understand, to homicidal maniacs. In Comstock's case, that might be ok, but for daisy...
Another great video! Keep it up man.
Though I'd feel I will still agree with MatthewMatosis critique on Bioshock Infinite more. However for someone defending Bioshock Infinte you did a great job. Your opinion was well detailed and articulated as well. To a point where I can't find a fault in your opinion at all. (Perhaps with the exception of calling Elizabeth a "local" to Columbia, I doubt being locked up in a tower for all your life really counts you as being a local. She's as much new to this world as Booker to be fair.) Overall though a well made video.