ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 7 ก.ย. 2021
- This one looks very promising!
Links to the featured blower:
Source1: s.click.aliexpress.com/e/_AZFrYS
Source2: s.click.aliexpress.com/e/_9860vY
🍺 SUPPORT ME
If you like my work and would like to support my efforts in making more open source 3D printing solutions, please consider a donation or becoming a Patron.
Patreon ► / miragec
PayPal ► www.paypal.com/donate?hosted_... - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
As the potmeter is a voltage divider, the control board respond to a voltage, you can convert a PWM signal to a voltage with an RC filter, or use a PWM to voltage converter board.
Thank you! will look into that :)
If it's just a signal (no real current is going through the pot) you can use a digital potentiometer with a simple opamp to create a valid voltage range for the controller. It would be much more accurate.
Digital POT requires firmware changes. PWM is more hacky but I think you can get it to work fine with far less effort. I would buffer the fan PWM signal with a NPN transistor if the voltage across the potentiometer isn't 12 (or 24 for you maybe). Texas instruments application report SLVA763 has got what you need and all the math to go with it. Likely wouldn't be totally linear, but that doesnt really matter.
This, could also use an spi digipot like some older printers/reprap use to set motor current before programmable step drivers; just adjusts the pot on the step driver in software. Marlin already supports it, so should be able to cobble together an output to software control fan speed without ever going analog.
I use this kind of blower on my JUBILEE, I use PWM fan of the duet + small RC filter work really well to smooth the signal and good for the CPAP controller board
When 3d printing and tubros come together and you print a car part with it, you gain +5hp lol
You can do pwm on the driver (ws2403dy01v04).
On a image from alibaba, it says for pin SV,
"PWM Signal/5V/2~50KHz or 0~5V signal."
hey Mirage i know a little something about these type of fans. having recently had to repair both a controller board and a fan itself. it is because these design also is necessary on electronics hot air soldering rework stations. they are 3 phase brushless dc motor with hall sensors in them. which is why the extra wires to the motor. and the controller board typically has a bldc pre-driver ic on it to do all the proper fast timing send the pulses to the array of mosfets. for turning on and off the coils at the right exact moment (at up to 10k - 30k rpm speeds). its really similar the basic idea to a car distributor cap i guess. with the hall sensors giving that rotational input signal.
anyhow sorry for the waffling. what i actually wanted to say here was more practical observations. for getting the best performance out of these things. on the hot air stations we notice that the length of the air hose is a large diameter hollow silicon or rubber floppy tube. and its something like 60-70cm i guess will have to measure the length properly and let you know. also the diameter. because i think if you try the push the air into any smaller diameter tube then at these speeds you may encounter issues since it is essentially like an impedence matching situation. where for max power transfer you dont want too high or too low a back pressue fighting back against the such high rpm fan... which is driven by the motor, which kicks back against its own non linear magnetics generated by that motor itself too. so that is something important i think to consider. and you might decided to test out a variety of slightly different sizes. in order to confirm and verify what is the optimum tubing diameter. and the maximum reasonable tubing lengh (before the performance drops away too much). because that will also affect the impedence / the resistance that the fan blades and the fan motor 'sees'
but the other important thing is that maybe some of these bldc motors from china claim a certain level of performance. and at a particular cost. however the specific unit itself might not perform as good as other ones. or being from china, some of the specification might be somehow exaggerated, or misrepresented, or fake, or just not as good as another one that claims a similar specs. you see we have been talking just today about these hot air stations fan motors because there is a wide difference. one of them isonly 1.5amp, it looks most similar to yours. and it underperforms on the atten 862 hot ait station. it falls short. but it seems they choose it for a higher level of reliability. you open yours up and look at the mass of the fan blades. now it should be very low mass. but also must be strong to transfer a high energy. these 2 things are in conflict! and measure the rpms of your fan with audio microphone frequency phone app. check that its true 30krpms by the sound frequency. for similar price i have here about 50-60 euro fan in my station it carries 2.0a rating. but its reasonably powerful (i think). but the fan blades keeps shredding themselves and the fan itself tends to just disentigrate. unless modified. that is the fan in the quick 862dw and the bst-863 hot air stations.... then finally we have for about 130 euro is the 2.85 amp fan in the quick tr1300a station. which is even more powerful perhaps. but we will get photos soon to see inside. what the fan blades looks like. IDK why your fan itself (without driver board) can have a similar specs but cost only 30 euro. something seems wrong. they are both sold on aliexpress. but they are indeed different designs. it does not mean you should have to pay as much as 130 euro for to get a better fan. just... these things may differ. what i keep wondering is if there is some concept of torque drop off, when loaded. that the loading characteristic is different between them. to deal with back pressure (like SPL? idk). or if there is a wasted current energy lost in the motor itself, or that some energy is lost with the fan blades actually spinning the air in place, and kinetically heating the air, without actually pushing it / moving it out the nozzle. to explain if there is some difference between the specs against a real world performance. YMMV
anyhow i will get back to you later. and leave a message on discord. with the tubing size for the hot air station i have. and also some aliexpress links to those other fans. so you can find them and see online the prices vs their claimed specs etc.
Great data man, thanks for sharing. I think for 3d printers considerable factor is a noise. I have some 20krpm models that perform pretty solid, except that I fried by duet qith one of them trying to work out a 3-4 wire PWM solution on that board 🤦🏻♂️😆 oh well
Now we got turbocharged 3D printers. What is the next step? NOS injection?
Nos cools Quite Well! Engine intakes even freeze when you blast nos through it 😁
Intercooler cooling spray kit :) lol!
Its Supercharger. Not Turbocharger...
@@Alyxif yeah you are right. Being a car guy i should have used the proper terminology.
Dude, don't cover the air intake. That's a good way to have it shoot up to 100,000 RPM and explode in your hand.
good point! did not think of that. I should perhaps build a cage around for the installation.
Gonna put this on my car and get those massive turbo gains!
I think a self inflating thin wall plastic tube could transfer the air with minimal mass and resistance to movement.
What speaks against a normal "hard" plastic tube?
@@certified-forklifter that would be hysteresis and bending moment. Both of those would slow down and add artifacts to the printhead as well as having a significantly larger amount of mass involved. A smaller hard plastic tube but also require large pressures to move the same volume of air.
The downside of a self-inflating air tube? Your fans always have to be on or your tube will collapse. A collapsed tube can potentially rip and tear as well as get tangled in the kinematic mechanisms. Obviously having your cooling fans on all the time is not necessarily a good thing. Especially for that first layer
@@Unmannedair It could be lightly attached to everything else that is going to the hotend.
@@danielkruger4305 that only works if a drag chain isn't being used. I do recommend DCs.
Yep I also have been testing with a high pressure blower, even bigger than that one. I am using a hose for CPAP masks.
Wow, this is looking promising!!
Thanks for sharing your find!! :-)
Never a need for silent stepper drivers if you install this on your printer. 😂
2 for 1 solution! :)
@@MirageC yeah for sure. Should save a few bucks too. 😀
You could use a low pass filter, and possibly an op amp depending on the voltage. By far the easiest and best way is with a digital to analog converter. Check out Amazon. About 3 for 9 usd. Sending a raw pwm signal straight to that won't work.
Can't wait for printer to sound like a vacuum cleaner
I actually think that we can manage some of that noise down in order to achieve an acceptable level. For sure this is not meant to be on the 3D printer running next to your bed though.
This blower is noisy only at high PWM, use CPAP tubing to guide the air to the shroud and most important use the same tubing before the blower: reduce the noise a lot
I've been thinking about trying exactly this. I'm looking forward to seeing your results.
We are a few now running these tubes, Vez3d, Josh Murrah are a few people I know having them on. Many other HevORT users also have them. So far so good. I should do a tear down review in a year.
As for controlling it, you can go old school and drive the pot directly using a stepper. Known as a "Motor Operated Pot" back in the day.
You can use a digital potentiometer. They are chips that act like a potentiometer where you can control the wiper with i2c or SPI.
as mentioned by others a voltage divider wit RC filter would be simple. Another way to do it is with a digital potmeter. These connect to a printer over SPI or I2C and can be told what resistance to take on. A filter would require some matching of the R and C values and a unknown impedance of the driving board and a digital pot does not need this although it requires a bit more software.
Thanks! Although that sounds like chinese to me at the moment, I think I know where you are going with this. Let me educate myself and I will come back :)
I've made a CPAP pump as cooling fan ~half year ago. I modified original driver board by removing pot and add digital potentiometer drived by Arduino nano by i2c which reads 3.3v pwm signal from printer board. As addition i adapted motor braking option and on/off from bldc driver on board (found options in datasheet and with some soldering, few cm of wire and 2 small transistor just upgrade driver).
As tube to feed air from blower to toolhead try to find CPAP tube.
If You interested in details i could provide Arduino code, parts numbers and schematics but in next week;)
There should be a lot of used air purifiers on the market now (thank you, big C). They usually have fans inside that can produce quite a high static pressure, high flow and should not be to noisy at the same time. Pretty ideal for an external cooling system.
I use/sell these - all you need is a 5v pwm signal going to the pwm spot on the driver board from your printer controller. No need for a separate pot, assuming your driver you purchased is similar to the ones I offer
What is the voltage on the potentiometer? You could maybe use a DAC to control it. Esp32 has two build in, but I think the maximum positive voltage is 2.5V.
If the static air pressure coming out of the blower is high enough it can actually blow the plastic away from where you want it printed. More cooling can make bridging go farther strides but too much pressure can also work against that.
On the other hand, you can push the air from a different direction that would normally be blocked. I think if you shape the housing properly, you can blow air from top down even with the print head in the way. Or you can force the air right into the housing. The extra pressure would get the air into and out of small holes, allowing you to duct the airflow. I wonder if a ring of air around the extrusion nozzle would improve printing performance.
It is used for pellets dispensing in pellet extruders for direct printing
Maybe compressed air with an aftercooler works beter.
The expansion of compressed air can significantly cool down its surroundings, without additional flow.
awesome little one! this kinda sound I dont mind, since its not vibration. Sound will not even come out of my print room so it should be fine for me :) Now lets see if we can keep the pressure all the way with a long feed tube. that is the main challenge here I think. Again good work innovating brother
My goal is to keep the section area of the tubing at the same diameter all the way to the print head. Will see soon enough :)
You can use standard CPAP tubing, really flexible, smooth inside, reinforced with plastic spring outside, the static pressure loss is really low, just remove end plastic fitting at the end of the tubing, heavy and useless, I can share you my full setup if you need, I have a JUBILEE with 3 tools using 1 CPAP blower with automatic distribution system 👍 (plug a "long" tubing before the blower to reduce noise)
The shroud is not easy to design too, need mix between high flow, pressure and not too small output. With good design you can have really compact shroud linked to a BIG blower, really light and so much flow 🤩.
I have used a pwm converter for my kbmm motor driver on my CNC spindle so I could control rpms via the mach3 controller. I'll try to find the actual name of the board I used since I did this like 8 years ago.
I need that turbo though!! lol
I assume the pot acts as a voltage divider, so a pwm signal at the same voltage as the supply to the potentiometer fed into the 3rd wire to the pot should act the same
Pwm of the correct voltage and a rc low pass filter can replace the pot.
Add some baffles to the input and a mechanicaly isolated enclosure with some sound dampening, both high density opencell foam and mechanical / mass dampening like is used on car body panels will keep the noise down.
Duct a pair of these in to a jumbo sized beird air system with some nice flexibke silicone pipes.
Next step chill the air a bit like an intercooler. A quick and dirty way to do this would.be to use a high pressure C02 canister, posiblh a co2 fire extinguisher. Invert it to get a streem of liquid C02 that rapidly boils and causes a load of cooling.
Intercooler would be better with a small vortex cooler tube
Ohhh!!! I love the way you think :)
@@MirageC sub 3min benchy with co2 cooling?
@@bassplaya69er ;)
Did you try any of the EC style fans from EBM-PAPST? They are AC powered but have PWM input and tacho. Very useful, quiet and powerful, not cheap..
i would also love to hook up my duet2wifi to a cpap blower+24v controller, im just not understanding how to have the duet control the cpap yet...
Oooh I need this.
Perfect for putting an electric turbo on your weed wacker!
In all seriousness, if you send me some decent resolution scans of both sides of the PCB I'll have a go at reverse engineering it. Turning voltage into pwm and back is pretty simple so this shouldn't be much of a challenge.
Blowden tube.
Been working a head design like what you described for a while using a cpap blower I found at surplus. I figure that both hotend and print cooling could be handled by one of these blowing through a tube with some sort of air splitter (maybe with a spring tensioned valve so that below a certain throttle no air goes to part cooling for first layers?). Seems like a great way to make a compact and comically lightweight head. Extra components (like probes) could even be driven through mini bowden cables so servos don't have to be on the head.
I too have been thinking about the remote air source for cooling and hotend for awhile now. I had not thought about remotely triggering a probe...love the idea but it would probably be better to just attach one manually for the probing/homing sequence. Maybe a tapered shape with locking edge clip for repeatable positioning...
try a cold air nozzle (vortex tube) for cooling. you can reach 0°C or less and need only small hose on hotend for weight saving.
I don't know about blowing away softened bead that just came out of the nozzle, yeah it will get cool but this might be a little drastic.
Yes! I am working on another video explaining exactly that. this thing should blow air AROUND the print zone. NOT ON it.
With power like that, I feel like you could just put it to the side of the bed (or gantry), with a directed nozzle, and it'll still do its job fine.
There ar ways to reduce noise level, but of course, this is meant for some extreme applications. :)
@@MirageC Whoops replied to wrong comment I'm guessing? I don't care about noise, this just seems like a nice way to reduce print head weight to increase print accel speed quality.
you could try server grade radial fans they work teally well too
you can get a digital potentiometer and try hooking it up with that
This is gonna be a nightmare according to the sound. Btw sound: Would it be possible to replace this with thermoacoustic cooling?
Yeah, definately not meant for a printer in the living room.
Would not recommend Thermo acoustic cooling. Wrong scale problem for Thermo acoustic. Thermo acoustics requires precise control of the geometric configuration. If you're cooling a printed part of an arbitrary shape then that means you have zero control of the geometry and thus zero control of the cooling.
@@Unmannedair What about peltier heating/cooling? The huge amount of heat can be use to melt the plastic, and the other side can result a cooling chamber that blows the berdair system?
@@MirageC at lower throttles, for the airflow required for conventional slower (~100mm/s) printing, is the noise still very loud? Or comparable to regular cooling fans?
@@sssfsfdfsdsdffsfsdf4 I would say that obtaining a minimal flow with this is the current challenge. It will not spin below 40ish% BUT that level of air is sufficent for normal printing and the fan noise level is probably lower than a 5015 would produce at similar flow. For ABS and other temp sensible material I suggest you suck air from the enclosure to avoid too much warping.
Almost like I already designed and am testing this with a fan 3x the size of this 🙂
Have you tried to print your own turbine blower? Any project for printable fan you recommend? Any plans to design your own project?
Is that a part clearing fan? Holy crap!
Dual purpose! :)
Power!
Well, this looks promising!
You can get I2C chips that act as potentiometers. That would be easier.
Did you ever get this figured out? I saw the blower installed in your latest video and would love to know how you're controlling the speed .
look at the vzbot project. They got it running on theirs
You can control with PWM they mentioned in discription
Connect to VSR pin
Exactly what I was just looking at! thanks mate!
You could just use a servo to control the pot … because you have a spare stepper output
haha! don't give me ideas like this! I might actually do it :)
Get a compatible digital potentiometer, can be controlled easily and varies resistance directly, GreatScott has a video about them
Yes this Is exactely what I am working on. :)
Just use a voltage to pwm board Control...0-24V to pwm 👌👌
On Ali from same version there is even a version with integrated heatsink… does it get so hot?
I guess it might when running at full power for some time.
Oooohhh, I like it, I want it 🤩
What happened to the race? Haven't seen a submission from you in quite a while. Can't keep up anymore?
It depends what your driver board is doing with the potentiometer-feedback.
But basically you could make a pwm controlled variable resistance with some resistors and a mosfet
My 3d printer may get a turbo mod before my car!
wow, a fan
Did you ever get this to work?
Looks like a blower for a doll sized bouncy castle. :)
It is actually a CPAP blower :)
@@MirageC someone is meant to sleep with that noisy thing running, wow Id think I would prefer something gentler, I fear that one would inflate me like a balloon 😂
You can try to use digital potentiometer...
Exactly what i am doing :)
This isn't my field of expertise but couldn't you just feed the fan power. But on the positive wire add a Mosfet or something and use that to turn the power off and on?
But also correct me if I'm wrong doesn't pwm effectively reduce duty cycle of the fan which can cause stalling and stuff.
I've heard that the way around this is with a cap in line with the pwm signal so that it smooths out the power so you reduce the voltage but not the duty cycle which should lead to less stalling of the fans? So in essence instead of pulsing the fan, you would be lowering the voltage.
The driver does all the work, I only need to change the way we talk to it. Going from a reference voltage to a PWM signal. In theory the onboard chip should understand both "languages".
@@MirageC oh I see now. For some reason I was thinking it was a 2 wire fan. Hm I got a friend into rc I'll ask her and see if she can think of something.
@@MirageC so she said she couldn't think of anything. But I wonder... The normal 2 wire fans use pwm to control speed.
What if you just hooked that to the signal wire on the esc? Or configured it as a servo in klipper. Servos use the same pwm signal, so it should talk to the esc just fine.
Nice. N i c e.
when e3d hextrudort tho
OH! true! I have been pulled away from the project during the summer. I need to connect the dots on a few things! Here is a version you can work with: a360.co/3dGhSNx
@@MirageC Omg you actually answered! you're the best dude
thank you so much for the model!!!
again, you're the best.
@@mateojbuteler8974 I try my best to always answer my friend! Hope the model serves you good. I only made BLtouch mounts for Volcano and V6. Super volcano looks ridiculous on this tiny extruder ;)
I think you gonna need only berd air if you use targeted laser to melt the plastic. Same way as here. That will make another advantage: it will be easier to make SMT line with instant cover/chassis manufacturing. The most advanced laser soldering solution in the world - TH-cam
What a surprise 😄
Will you be a source of supply for this baby my friend? :D
@@MirageC nope, I don't have that particular model. However I am testing a 20krpm model that is easier to setup as it works as a regular 4 wire PWM fan.
from looking at the aliexpress page the controller board got a pin for vsr 0-5v to control the fan speed wich you might be able to do direcly from your motherboard if you can change the voltage of the fan pins or use a resistor to eat up the remaining 19v
also seems to have a pulse imput so you can just use a voltage to pwm module
amazing idea doe, really interested in seeing how it performs ;)
might put something like this on my printer now that you gave me the idea
Yes exactly my thinking. The expansion header from the Duet Wifi should give me what I need.
Forget about fans. We want IDEX!
next weeks episode: fit a 2stroke leaf blower on your printer...
By 2:00 we already got the point man, gosh 🤦🏻♂️😄😄😄 are you gonna stop blowing things away? 😄😄😄😄😄😄
1:27 this is probably what is going to happen to your print
Yes, managing the output shap and direction will be critical. But I did some benchies with 60PSI shop air through my berdair pipes. So I have some ideas on how to fit this guy :)
warp generator... in a simple, albeit noisy package.
Link doesnt work
I added an alternate link. Depending on your country some links are not accessible I think.
I can understand why a fan / blower has 3 cables but why has this thing soooo many cables attached?!?
there is the equivalent of 3 motors stacked up inside of that thing. Ech of them with there own timing driver.
digiPOT
If this doesn't work well for you 3d printer, you can make hair dryer for you wife with this fan ;)
far too loud for me!
You can get I2C chips that act as potentiometers. That would be easier.