Every time I see this printer I am in awe!, the nice shiny aluminium parts and the CF parts just pop, every time I see it I find something new that gives me that oh wow moment.
This is very interesting, and excellent as a tutorial to accompany the build manual. Something I would like to learn more about is the detailed technical around what is happening with the Motors / Steps / Tensions, with how the pully is mounted on the Keyed and non Keyed Shafts. As we can see from the comments from the VZ citizens there is some confusion. and there is alot of technical happening here.
Worth mentioning that after doing this, its a good idea to check excentricity of your gear. Some gears have bad tolerances and doing this might increase wobble. If it happens, try to mount the gear screw as close as possible to the flat spot without touching. It will help to not have the screws at 180 degrees opposite to flat spot
It might be better to put screw slots that are concentric with the shaft in one of the motor mounts for each axis. That way the motor itself can be rotated and the set screw can be kept on the d-flat to keep the same torque output capability.
Thanks for making this! I'm planning dual Y motor for my E3 bed and hadn't figured out how to do this. Avoiding the flat spot was the missing ingredient.
There's also a control board synchronization that would be beneficial if you haven't done so already as well. I watched a video showing it earlier today, can't say right now where it is, if I locate it I"ll try to come back and provide a link. I don't think it was in the context of 3D Printing, it appeared to be about the electrical side of step motor applications.
I see, so basically because each motor while energized locks in at a position (1/200), and the flat spots lock position on a motor shaft to pulley, that can be different from the 200 step position on different motors, so they are never really identical, Unless like you said, you're lucky, and that is an issue, so basically: #1, Go away from flat spot with set screws, #2, Energize motors, Now each motor is locked on 1 of the 200 Physical mechanical/magnetic steps... #3, Tighten screws on shaft not on the flat spot, All motors 200 mechanical steps should now be Synced. Did I get this right ?
Cheap Amazon pulleys need not apply for awd. This setup definitely requires a good set of matched pulleys with tight tolerances. Anyone have a good source?
It might be worth it to work with ldo or moons or whatever, to produce a specialized stepper moter with no D shaft for the awd vzbot, by not using the flat spot, you are forcing the pulley to make contact with the motor shaft on spots instead of the nice round curvature of the shaft, which may exagerrate the eccentricity of the pulley and cause inconsistency similar to the extrusion problem with hevort's hextrudort extrusion wheel, you should check the eccentricity of the pulley after tightened not agains the flat spot and see if that is the case.
you gotta have 4 drivers, you can even have the same logic signal coming from the boards to connect to both drivers that work together, but you want each motor running their on their own driver.
Same reason that makes me thing we should do this also on a corexy 2 motor setup. Because the belts are attached at the printhead too like a single belt. So.i think this should apply to normal core xy too...or you rake the gantry or have belts uneven once motors are energized
Love your video's I'm assuming you're going to have a follow-up video on the operation. Not sure what the benefit is other than possible higher speeds which watching your previous vids are pretty insane 😯 As your alluded to, there could be unwanted side effects from the motor synchronization. Keep-up the good work
no follow up video for this ..this was just a how to. I dont have enough time unfortunately to do more videos about this. I might just make a quick one explaining the motor steps..because some people dont understand what I am trying to do here :) maybe because I didnt explain it right.
@@Vez3D I figure the purpose is to get better acceleration and faster print head speed with less stress on the belt. Adding an encode for a closed loop system may help the motors acting in tandem by knowing where each other is but I'm stepping outside the level of my knowledge here. My main concern as you are aware of is any conflict between both motors. Not sure what results you are getting but you certainly are a "pioneer" with 3D printing. In the end you may find there is no advantage but to my knowledge no one has ever done this and who better to do this than you? Keep-up the good work. I'm building a Ratrig V-core 500 (well, what's left of it) that is fully enclosed, double walled/insulated and heated with liquid cooled motors and hotend. All the motors are located outside the chamber other than the extruder. There are double pane tempered glass windows and sheet aluminum covering everything including the cover. I'm using a squirl cage fan blowing over a 1200 watt finned heater in a stainless-steel shroud to circulate the air which moves it by the boatload driven by a 1200 rpm brushless motor which is also located outside the chamber. The hotend fan is a cpap impeller unit also located outside the chamber. Pretty "high-end" stuff. I got a lot of my inspiration from your videos and took it a step further but in a different direction. I expect the chamber can easily exceed 100 degrees C so there should be no problem printing high temperature filament. Pretty cool stuff but its been a lot of work and expensive but should rival an industrial grade 3D printer and then some. Love to show you some picture but I'm not sure if you can send PM's through TH-cam
Im working on a 600mm cubed VZ bot with a 1.5kg pellet extruder. Should I move to nema 24 or to the current reccomendations still hold true? Im only looking to print with 15k accelerations. But I want it to be stable to 30k so that I can have a 2x safety factor on lost steps
Hi. First of all, thanks for the top channel you created. I am at the step, where motors are set up and software is configured. Now I have following issue. When I move in Y direction it always moves a little bit in X direction as well. And when I move in X direction it always moves a little bit in Y as well. To be more specific: neg Y move results in additional pos X move. It is always the same amount of mm the system moves. Could you guys possibly help me out with that? I set up the AWD and synchronized as described, but the effect persists. Thanks in advance
This is just such an incredible nice build. Are you planning to do a Video to explain each feature of this build or can you point me to if already existing
Thx for sharing this great tips on how to sync motors on same belt system 🙏🏻 Usually people are saying those nuts should be locked on the flat spot of the D rod but u are telling us to avoid it. Definitely you are based on what your great result of speedy print in highest print quality, would you mind elaborate what the theory how that should be the case is? I am now saving for the cost of building a VZ330 AWD btw. Thx again!
This interesting my question is there what does this affect exactly doing lets say just using the d shaft.. vs doing how you showed in the video..great video thanks again
At least one set screw should be on the flat of the D shaft. Should be able to do this relatively easily. I'll hop of the discord server for further discussion.
Hey, i have a awd setup im trying to get going however im having a issue of x,x1 motors working wonderfully together however y,y1 are not. The y1 motor is not turning at the same rate as y. Its so close however after about 5mm of travel the belt get bound up and y1 starts to either skip steps from the belt tension. Klipper firmware. All motors have the same rotation, current, ect. Only difference is rotation direction is reversed as the y1 and x1 motors are upside down.
@Vez3D yes. Gates 20t on all 4 motors. I have even tried to run x,y and x1,y1 by themselves (unplugging the opposite 2) to see how it homes. They both seam to work fine that way. Nozzle runs right along the edge of the bed in both x and y movement.
Hey vez. First happy birthday. (Think i seen today was your birthday) 2nd i figured out my issue. The factory wires on the ldo steppers were reversed on my super powers. I Should have seen that sooner.....
I follow why you'd sync motors so they are all resting at a step, not wherever. Aside from making sure the grub screw doesn't catch a piece of the flat, why does it matter that it's facing forward(or does it)?
it doesnt matter.. just that on this printer, the access is from the rear... so I put the flat to the front so that way I make sure i dont screw the bolts on the flat spot
Wouldn’t an easy way to do this would be to mark a 90° on the flat spot of easy motor with the motor mount disconnect all of the motors. Align the marks and then plug them all back in and perform the energizing of the motors? This would also allow you to keep using the d shafts? It’s basically like timing a synchronized belt?
@@Vez3D I’m still not following your aligning the belt/pullies so they all are at the same location. During travel while energized. So how would this method not work since these motors are not closed loop they do not have a position rather they only have on state and off state. Whatever the last turned off position is that would mean that’s it’s origin. If a step is skipped that means you would have to do this all over again also…
@@gabriell4031 sorry I guess thats because I dont understand your first message. So maybe your technique works. I just dont understand the sentences hehe
Hello, Vez! In my opinion the step motors have too small pitch size to affect on quality when you using flat spots on the both motors for each axis. Have you tested it with flat spots?
to sync motors. If you bolt it to flat spot... then you create a lot of load when motor move to a natural physical step... you are forcing the pulley to an exact position like that. When you use the round surface, you can put the pulley anywhere and let it sit where the exact step is. Not sure if the explanation is clear enough ? im bad at explaining hehe sorry
@@Vez3D couldn't you just power the steppers -- they jump to a physical step, the rotate the pulley to sit on the flat. I am in the process of setting up an all wheel drive delta, and trying to understand what would the difference. I get letting the steppers find their happy place, but then you can adjust the pulley accordingly, or am I missing something?
Every time I see this printer I am in awe!, the nice shiny aluminium parts and the CF parts just pop, every time I see it I find something new that gives me that oh wow moment.
Man you did a lot of work for this channel, really appreciated, currently I'm working on annex K2, this is definitely my next printer.
Many thanks, I had never evaluated this setting, now I finally solved a big resonance problem
Glad it helped! It fixed a lot of artifacts for me too
Fun fact: I thumbs up every video I watch of yours.
This is very interesting, and excellent as a tutorial to accompany the build manual.
Something I would like to learn more about is the detailed technical around what is happening with the Motors / Steps / Tensions, with how the pully is mounted on the Keyed and non Keyed Shafts. As we can see from the comments from the VZ citizens there is some confusion. and there is alot of technical happening here.
Thanks! I did this on my 330. But i used the front motors to do this. Is like a pain to do. But it worked. Thanks for your work!
I think on the 330 its easier in the back. the front motor have extra idlers that block the access.. but it can be done yes :)
Glad you’ve addressed this, it has been my major concern about this setup.
Worth mentioning that after doing this, its a good idea to check excentricity of your gear. Some gears have bad tolerances and doing this might increase wobble. If it happens, try to mount the gear screw as close as possible to the flat spot without touching. It will help to not have the screws at 180 degrees opposite to flat spot
Are you files for this printer open source?
@@odeball22 the printed version is all opensource yes
@@Vez3D so not for tge milled parts?
@@odeball22 no sorry. Partnership contracts on these
@@Vez3D ahh ok thanks
It might be better to put screw slots that are concentric with the shaft in one of the motor mounts for each axis. That way the motor itself can be rotated and the set screw can be kept on the d-flat to keep the same torque output capability.
is this normal that I keep watching his biceps😂
but i don't understand why tighten set screws on the round side will make it better 🤔
Ill do my next video with no tshirt just for you xx
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Thanks for making this! I'm planning dual Y motor for my E3 bed and hadn't figured out how to do this. Avoiding the flat spot was the missing ingredient.
keep pushing the limit mah man
Would it be possible to get an AWG and Gantry set up for the voron trident 350. Looking at doing a hybrid VZBot/Trident.
There's also a control board synchronization that would be beneficial if you haven't done so already as well. I watched a video showing it earlier today, can't say right now where it is, if I locate it I"ll try to come back and provide a link. I don't think it was in the context of 3D Printing, it appeared to be about the electrical side of step motor applications.
I see, so basically because each motor while energized locks in at a position (1/200), and the flat spots lock position on a motor shaft to pulley, that can be different from the 200 step position on different motors, so they are never really identical, Unless like you said, you're lucky, and that is an issue, so basically:
#1, Go away from flat spot with set screws,
#2, Energize motors, Now each motor is locked on 1 of the 200 Physical mechanical/magnetic steps...
#3, Tighten screws on shaft not on the flat spot,
All motors 200 mechanical steps should now be Synced.
Did I get this right ?
Yes ! We got round shaft motors now :)
Cheap Amazon pulleys need not apply for awd. This setup definitely requires a good set of matched pulleys with tight tolerances. Anyone have a good source?
I use mellow pulleys. They are tight and good. Kiss3d also has nice pulleys that c-clamp on the shaft which is good too
Super useful video!
Awesome as always!!!
such a sexy machine, and the printer is also awesome ;)
You referring to me as the sexy machine???? Haha?
It might be worth it to work with ldo or moons or whatever, to produce a specialized stepper moter with no D shaft for the awd vzbot, by not using the flat spot, you are forcing the pulley to make contact with the motor shaft on spots instead of the nice round curvature of the shaft, which may exagerrate the eccentricity of the pulley and cause inconsistency similar to the extrusion problem with hevort's hextrudort extrusion wheel, you should check the eccentricity of the pulley after tightened not agains the flat spot and see if that is the case.
True. And you need a very well machine pulley that has good tolerancens or you get wobble. I suggest you test wobble after this step
I will ask Jason for round shaft
Would it be possible to run AWD with just 2 TMC5160 drivers? Will that hinder performance in any way? Great video man, keep up the good work!
you gotta have 4 drivers, you can even have the same logic signal coming from the boards to connect to both drivers that work together, but you want each motor running their on their own driver.
You could yes. In parallel. Those 5160 can take up to 6amps so it would work
Makes total sense. Not 100% why you would want all 4 motors off the flats.
Same reason that makes me thing we should do this also on a corexy 2 motor setup. Because the belts are attached at the printhead too like a single belt. So.i think this should apply to normal core xy too...or you rake the gantry or have belts uneven once motors are energized
We really need to stop having dcut motor shafts, and start moving to round motor shafts and just using the green loctite to secure the pulleys.
So belt tension comes right after motor sync right?
No you need at least minimum tension to this and proper tension. Tension first them do this
Love your video's
I'm assuming you're going to have a follow-up video on the operation. Not sure what the benefit is other than possible higher speeds which watching your previous vids are pretty insane 😯 As your alluded to, there could be unwanted side effects from the motor synchronization. Keep-up the good work
no follow up video for this ..this was just a how to. I dont have enough time unfortunately to do more videos about this. I might just make a quick one explaining the motor steps..because some people dont understand what I am trying to do here :) maybe because I didnt explain it right.
@@Vez3D I figure the purpose is to get better acceleration and faster print head speed with less stress on the belt. Adding an encode for a closed loop system may help the motors acting in tandem by knowing where each other is but I'm stepping outside the level of my knowledge here. My main concern as you are aware of is any conflict between both motors. Not sure what results you are getting but you certainly are a "pioneer" with 3D printing. In the end you may find there is no advantage but to my knowledge no one has ever done this and who better to do this than you? Keep-up the good work.
I'm building a Ratrig V-core 500 (well, what's left of it) that is fully enclosed, double walled/insulated and heated with liquid cooled motors and hotend. All the motors are located outside the chamber other than the extruder. There are double pane tempered glass windows and sheet aluminum covering everything including the cover. I'm using a squirl cage fan blowing over a 1200 watt finned heater in a stainless-steel shroud to circulate the air which moves it by the boatload driven by a 1200 rpm brushless motor which is also located outside the chamber. The hotend fan is a cpap impeller unit also located outside the chamber. Pretty "high-end" stuff. I got a lot of my inspiration from your videos and took it a step further but in a different direction. I expect the chamber can easily exceed 100 degrees C so there should be no problem printing high temperature filament. Pretty cool stuff but its been a lot of work and expensive but should rival an industrial grade 3D printer and then some. Love to show you some picture but I'm not sure if you can send PM's through TH-cam
Im working on a 600mm cubed VZ bot with a 1.5kg pellet extruder. Should I move to nema 24 or to the current reccomendations still hold true? Im only looking to print with 15k accelerations. But I want it to be stable to 30k so that I can have a 2x safety factor on lost steps
@@Anyone700 you could use the kraken motors. Should be able to handle your needs ...specially since its awd
is it not best to have the front locked on the flat spot to keep things secure. and just have the rears sinc with the fronts?
Hi. First of all, thanks for the top channel you created. I am at the step, where motors are set up and software is configured. Now I have following issue. When I move in Y direction it always moves a little bit in X direction as well. And when I move in X direction it always moves a little bit in Y as well. To be more specific: neg Y move results in additional pos X move. It is always the same amount of mm the system moves. Could you guys possibly help me out with that? I set up the AWD and synchronized as described, but the effect persists. Thanks in advance
This is just such an incredible nice build. Are you planning to do a Video to explain each feature of this build or can you point me to if already existing
Thx for sharing this great tips on how to sync motors on same belt system 🙏🏻 Usually people are saying those nuts should be locked on the flat spot of the D rod but u are telling us to avoid it. Definitely you are based on what your great result of speedy print in highest print quality, would you mind elaborate what the theory how that should be the case is? I am now saving for the cost of building a VZ330 AWD btw. Thx again!
Can AWD be run in UART mode?
This interesting my question is there what does this affect exactly doing lets say just using the d shaft.. vs doing how you showed in the video..great video thanks again
I explain that in the beginning. :) it causes load on the motors and bad artifacts on the print... caused by vibration
@@Vez3D I got ya I guess what I'm meaning to say is this method for only AWD vs 2wd setup thank you're response.
@@GoldenJaguar3D only awd bc you have 2 motors per pulley
At least one set screw should be on the flat of the D shaft. Should be able to do this relatively easily. I'll hop of the discord server for further discussion.
Yeah, I think so too.
thats exactly what we need to avoid here
Ever thought about adding another core xy on top of that one to drive the extruder making a truly weightless direct drive
CoreXYE is a viable form of remote direct drive but I'm not sure it's a win over flex shaft or CV joint based solutions.
Hey, i have a awd setup im trying to get going however im having a issue of x,x1 motors working wonderfully together however y,y1 are not. The y1 motor is not turning at the same rate as y. Its so close however after about 5mm of travel the belt get bound up and y1 starts to either skip steps from the belt tension.
Klipper firmware. All motors have the same rotation, current, ect. Only difference is rotation direction is reversed as the y1 and x1 motors are upside down.
Same pulley size?
@Vez3D yes. Gates 20t on all 4 motors. I have even tried to run x,y and x1,y1 by themselves (unplugging the opposite 2) to see how it homes. They both seam to work fine that way. Nozzle runs right along the edge of the bed in both x and y movement.
Hey vez. First happy birthday. (Think i seen today was your birthday) 2nd i figured out my issue. The factory wires on the ldo steppers were reversed on my super powers. I Should have seen that sooner.....
I follow why you'd sync motors so they are all resting at a step, not wherever. Aside from making sure the grub screw doesn't catch a piece of the flat, why does it matter that it's facing forward(or does it)?
it doesnt matter.. just that on this printer, the access is from the rear... so I put the flat to the front so that way I make sure i dont screw the bolts on the flat spot
@@Vez3D Gotcha, TY!
What about the pulley slipping?? I don't see how this will be beneficial in the long run. Surely they'll come loose?
not a chance. E3D motors are all round.. no flat spot.. and I have beaten them a lot and never got loose
Wouldn’t an easy way to do this would be to mark a 90° on the flat spot of easy motor with the motor mount disconnect all of the motors. Align the marks and then plug them all back in and perform the energizing of the motors? This would also allow you to keep using the d shafts? It’s basically like timing a synchronized belt?
no.. its timing physical step of the motors to the belt/pulleys
@@Vez3D I’m still not following your aligning the belt/pullies so they all are at the same location. During travel while energized. So how would this method not work since these motors are not closed loop they do not have a position rather they only have on state and off state. Whatever the last turned off position is that would mean that’s it’s origin. If a step is skipped that means you would have to do this all over again also…
@@gabriell4031 sorry I guess thats because I dont understand your first message. So maybe your technique works. I just dont understand the sentences hehe
Easy, i have dual shaft motors on all 4 corners! 😃
whats the benefit of dual shaft ?
@@randomkast no need to move the gantry for adjusting this, just turn the shaft! 😃
is that metal tube better than cf tube?
motors in 🍐🍐!! *🌟* 👉🤙👈
you know if i can get sensorless homing working well with awd setup?
yes I think some people did
Hello, Vez! In my opinion the step motors have too small pitch size to affect on quality when you using flat spots on the both motors for each axis. Have you tested it with flat spots?
Of course I did :) you can try too. And another thing i have noticed is the lost of tq when they are unsynced
can you explain why you would not want the pulleys not be on be on the flat spot, isn't that creates a greater chance of the pulley slipping?
to sync motors. If you bolt it to flat spot... then you create a lot of load when motor move to a natural physical step... you are forcing the pulley to an exact position like that. When you use the round surface, you can put the pulley anywhere and let it sit where the exact step is. Not sure if the explanation is clear enough ? im bad at explaining hehe sorry
I'm also wondering about that.
@@Vez3D couldn't you just power the steppers -- they jump to a physical step, the rotate the pulley to sit on the flat. I am in the process of setting up an all wheel drive delta, and trying to understand what would the difference. I get letting the steppers find their happy place, but then you can adjust the pulley accordingly, or am I missing something?
@@kazolar The nearest step may not be the ideal position.
@@kazolar I think the issue is that the teeth on the pulley don't align with the natural steps of the motor?
Why using 4 motor instead of using oDrive motor ?
Odrive was not good enough. It had its own issues
Mooore : )
We try to order parts and no one answer f3d.
?? F3d is very active on discord. Where did you try to contact them?
why not just skip the teeth on the belt and still use the flat spot?
I think I need to make another video to show what I mean :)
All I want is a reliable printer that doesnt require maintenance every other week
this is a very reliable printer.. even if it was beaten to death.. its still going strong :)
do the motor pairs also use one stepper driver?
One driver per motor..4 drivers
Just a question So when you enable energise macro, it's that basically locking a full step on every motor?
16291 Hayes Crossroad
Love your design. Do you think its possible to upscale it to a 400x400 without any huge changes?
yeah I would think so.
Thats a Beauty of a Machine it should be displayed in a museum
You have a spectacular machine! Very nicely done!
My man is jacked 💪
I'm confused, surely when you turn motors off/on it will just synchronise themselves. I don't get it.
They will..but belts are holding them.. so thats why