Him using the tie defender then we would have seeen a certain victory as it would have been extreamly hard to dodge its missiles in such a close ambient or vader wingman’s in a tie defender? Even worst he would have just comunicate fire missiles while he shooted to avoid him from dodging so they had a 100% chance of hit, done end of the film the empire wins (Glory to the Empire)
Star Wars Reading Club Vader + TIE Defender + Death Star Trench Run = All Rebels Torn Apart By 4 Dedicated Laser Cannons, 2 Ion Cannons and Speed Drastically Greater Than X-Wings Vader would mop the floor with them and be home in time for a moon being blown to pieces. Luke would not make it anywhere near as close as he did and Han would be too far out to help. I would not mind though. I actually like the Empire for the most part.
Now I get why Vader becomes your buddy in TIE Fighter. 1: You're competent 2: You're loyal to the Empire 3: You're a front line soldier 4: You fly around with him and attack things
@@steelgreyed Well, so long as you don't have a habit of failure, aren't a force sensitive and can be some sort of use to them, anyway. Also depends on the individual Sith. Dooku would be the easiest to get along with, since if you really analyze his character he's actually not that bad to begin with. Palpatine would be the hardest, but it's entirely his fault since he's a total psycho.
@@Suguru_Geto69 Yeah, except without the whole protecting you from your own ignorance nuance... (its all part of proper programming, the ingore extra commas, please, part)
If the TIE Defender was mass produced along with Thrawn and Vader working together more, the entire Rebellion would've been crushed in a matter of days.
It was the fact that they used tie Fighters, as the rebels primary fighter, the x-wing was much faster. Even if they had mass produced a fighter like the tie interceptor or the tie advanced, let alone the tie defender, all three would’ve crushed the rebellion. The fact that the empire didn’t push fighters as much as they should’ve, like maybe put something like a few venators in their fleet, didn’t help either.
thing is, most of the fleet was not fighting rebels, they were a police keeping force there to keep the population suppressed and under control. So spending more for a less intimidating ship probably didn't make sense to the leaders at the time. Kind of like the rolls of tanks in WW1 vs what they would become in WW2 that had most in power surprised at the tactics. Another example would be battleships vs dive bombers at the very beginning of WW2. Many thought that a massive battleship would overpower any fleet, and few considered using a plane for more than intelligence gathering at the time. So when what most considered to be a flock of Mosquitos destroyed multiple battleships, it was a big surprise and too late to adopt a new tactic at that moment in time. Vader may have had plans to use the new fighter, tho it would have taken time, and many were holding to their WW1 way of thinking, so when the Death Star was destroyed it simply was too late to implement WW2 tech and tactics with the WW1 equipment and armies they had at their disposal.
I'd agree with you Zarcondeegrissom, except for one very important thing. The Clone Wars. The Clone Wars demonstrated time and time again the value of fighters. Repeatedly the Republic defeated the much more numerous Separatist squadrons with their superior fighter craft, and on numerous occasions used small strike teams to cripple or destroy much larger targets like the Malevolence. Virtually the entirety of the Imperial high command following the rise of the Empire and the transition using trash fighters were commanders who served in the Clone Wars. They saw first hand that quality >>> quantity. Yet they didn't stick with the doctrine that won them the last war, they literally adopted the worst aspects of both the Republic's and the Separatist tactics; using costly non-disposable troops with the cheapest most disposable equipment. Nor did they switch to a policing force style of navy, they would have invested far more heavily into Arquitens and hyperspace capable fighters that could actually chase down smugglers and pirates while having the power to deal with them as necessary. Instead, massive Star Destroyers that are best for fighting other massive warships (and orbital bombardment) and having to pick up your fighters before jumping or leaving them behind. It's more akin to fighting WW1/2, and preparing for the next war by going to pre-WW1 era tactics and getting your men to fight in long lines with muskets. No wonder the Empire lost.
The naval side of that always gets a chuckle from me, as, by pure coincidence American doctrine was forced years ahead, thanks to losing most their standard naval vessels. But, yeah, for people who are simply policing, fighting pirates, and occasionally putting down rebellions, a fighter seems useless. A nice big command ship with troops and an intimidating figure feels like a far better choice. Especially since they also double as decent fortresses in their own right.
The Empire needed the ability to bombard more than enter into space battles. One requires capital ships. The other requires frigates, corvettes & fighters.
would have been interesting if the defenders 3 wings could extend and retract to adjust to what was needed like pulling in the wings more of maneuvering room was tight.
The T-65B X-Wing cannot, in open space or atmosphere, out-manoeuvre a TIE Defender without the utilisation of smoke screens or other appropriate countermeasures. The one example wherein a Defender was downed by an X-Wing saw said X-Wing lure the Defender into ion cannon fire, nullifying its shields, and then into a smoke screen (which just so happened to be ISD Chimaera's communications array). Finally, the X-Wing, piloted by Hera Syndulla, would cut out her engines and fire on the confused TIE Defender pilot Vult Skerris, downing the starfighter unconventionally.
@@feartheghus Except we often see tie class ships in atmosphere as well. So drag would still be an issue. Especially areodynymaically unsound designs that need rely on repulsor technology to remain airborne in planetary atmosphere.
I am by no means a Thrawn expert, but didn't Thrawn have a special emphasis on mobility and flexibility in imperial tactics. While hyperdrives are expensive, they can be used for precise jumps into enemy formations and for ambushes. I think Thrawn would have loved to use them in battle.
Hyperdrives on fighters is one of the reasons the Rebels won the war. It gave them a much bigger operational range compared to TIE fighters that would have to dock with a Star Destroyer before jumping. The Defender also had stronger lasers as well as the ability to launch proton torpedoes, making them more effective against capital ships. All that plus the new shielding made the ship too energy intensive, hence the third wing required in the Defender compared to normal TIEs (the wings of TIEs are solar panels that power the ship).
@@khadenallast4495 The hyperdrives *did* matter, though. How many times has this happened: a squad of Rebel ships drops out of hyperspace, blasts their target away, then jumps away before a defense can be mounted. Or an attack goes south, the Rebels lose their main ship, and the remaining fighters are able to jump away to safety and regroup rather than being left sitting ducks. Guerilla warfare necessitates being able to quickly get in and out of combat without your opponent being able to retaliate. The rebels wouldn't have lasted nearly as long if squadrons of TIEs could jump after them to mop up.
@@khadenallast4495 A hyperdrive is important because Rebel X-Wings uses a tactic which involves jumping into Hyperspace and jumping out from another location attacking from the side or behind.
I recently read the Treason book where six tie defenders did a bunch of hyperspace jumps to take out two grysk warships. So the hyperdrives on ties is a definite must
By it's design and obvious cost I feel like Thrawn looked at the defender less as a full replacement for the regular TIE (the replacement role was better served by the interceptor) and more as an air/space superiority fighter, basically a fighter that even deployed in small numbers could wreck most other fighters it would go up against. It scared the rebels to death, I mean look at their run ins with just one of them on two separate occasions, had it been deployed as a fully trained and functional wing the rebels limited supply of fighters at the time would have been decimated over the course of several engagements. As an aside, Vader's suggestion of simplified controls to make it more accessible to other pilots is what enabled Ezra and Sabine to pilot it well enough during their attempted theft of the prototype and also why Thrawn was pleased by their taking down the interceptors sent to pursue them....because it meant Vader's suggestion bore fruit and it could be picked up easily by non-ace pilots.
I mostly agree however it would end up in multi-role missions as this Space Superiority Interceptor "is" also more heavily loaded out than many dedicated bombers.. This was a capital AND snub craft threat.
If they had invested in the TIE Defender instead of the Death Star, the Empire could've made more than 3.3 million TIE Defenders. That's enough to outfit all 25000 active duty ISDs with nothing but TIE Defenders and still have 1.58 million left over.
The fact that Darth Vader not only supported the project all the way to the Emperor, but also gave recommendations for upgrades, tells me that he wanted the project to go as far as it could. Clearly Thrawn and Vader were on the same page
@@seanwhitman8353 Vader was a pilot at heart, the man loved to fly. The TIE Defender is one of the best starfighters in galactic history, he'd be geeking out about it constantly.
I once read a theory that when the Tie Defender budget was downsized for the Death Star he was so pissed that he let the Rebels take the Death Star plans so the Rebels could destroy it. Hoping for change and not knowing Palpatine’s plans for Death Star 2
I can imagine Vader taking the defender for a “test flight” and while no one can hear him, cheering and yelling out of excitement at how awesome they were, having the time of his life, just flying around blasting asteroids
Vader: "Master I think you should seriously consider mass producing these TIES. They are excellent for-" Palpatine: "We don't have the funds right now Lord Vader. I'm building my ship the Eclipse." Vader: "The Eclipse?" Palpatine: "Yeah its this HUGE FUCKING SHIP More than twice the length of a Super Star Destroyer!" Vader: "That sounds like a complete waste of-" Palpatine: "Leave me alone Vader. I'm busy discussing future plants for the Eclipse 2. Its 18 times the length of the Eclipse 1." Vader: "...."
I am with Thrawn's strategy personally on a smaller more flexible fleet than relying heavily on one massive super weapon that will take up so many resources.
@サイレントボイス Grand Admiral Zaarin invented the Tie Defender model, when he later defected, because he hated force users he took the production with him so that the empire would not have it...
*Darth Vader over an open comm without realising* “ Now THIS is pod racing!” *Random Imperial officer* “My Lord?... is something wro...” *Force Choked to death, then switches to private Comm* “......... Shiiiiit........😐”
NO WITNESSES!!! Thrawn: *thinks to self* i knew it. Vader: Thrawwwwwn. Thrawn: Yes Lord Vader? Vader: did you hear that? Thrawn: no. Vader: you sure? thrawn: yes. Vader: *probes his mind* ....fair enough. I sense nothing from you. Thrawn *at his death* : By the way i know you're anakin BYEEEE!!! Vader: GODDAMIT!!!!
+lancer737 You also save yourself the cost of losing all those quadrillions of dollars invested from a singular proton torpedo hitting and decimating your overly costly space station. Try to do the same with 300 tie defenders, nevermind a thousand times that
The way I see it is like this: the death star while powerful is still just one thing, it is limited in where it can be at any time, what it can attack at any time, what it can defend at any time, and it becomes a giant target as your enemies know that if they can destroy that one thing they will cripple you and will probably beat you.
Contrary to popular belief, the Empire wasn't stupid for building the first Death Star. They had no reason to suspect the Rebels would be able to destroy it. Building the second Death Star? Now that was stupid.
Clearly a better fighter and small craft defence capability would have helped aswell. Especially around those sensitive areas of the new death star..... Maybe even smaller forcefields/shields to provide some added protection for thouse dreaded outlets where torpedoes or entire fighters/small ships could slip in and destroy the central reactors or coolants. Better fighter cover and turrets aswell as mini forcefields in that area would have gone a long way. Maybe even a few tractor beam generators... Just look at how tractor beams could capture the milenium falcon in "A new hope". Then again, it was part of the plot for the second death star to be destroyed.
I think the stupid part was not eliminating those furry little Ewoks in the first place. In Choices of One (A Legends novel, but a good one), Senior Captain Thrawn recommended eliminating them. Palpatine rejected the recommendation which was when Thrawn realized that Palpatine was planning an ambush. If only Palpatine had listened to Thrawn...and not been so arrogant, he could've eliminated the Rebels...or in his death, the Rebels may have been eliminated too.
@Jeremy Dale Thrawn is based on a collection of smart men who were NOT listened too. He was in the Alexander the Great, Julius Ceaser, Huns & Visi-goths who toppled Rome in a sries of small attacks, Genghis Khan, Napoleon category. That is, small fast and versatile is better than one big knock out punch. Alexander the Great was THE best example. An army of 35 - 40,000 within two years wiped out THE world's Greatest Empire at the time and along with it, THE title of . . KING of Kings in Darius II. Death Star = 1 × Big Knock-out Punch Based on pride, ego and fear. Again, that is someone else's fear. The Rebels had balls/large cajones. Sidious thought they were nothing but angry wasps attacking an elephant 🐘. It turns out the wasps were killer bees. It only took one clever killer bee to sting the elephant in its central nervous system and voila . . . Ka Boom 💥 ì
I don’t know the precise timeline of REBELS, but the fact the Empire didn’t counter attack Lothal indicates to me the battle of Yavin happened shortly after. If a few dozen tie defenders had been ready on the Death Star the Rebels would have been screwed. In other words, Pryce’s incompetence led to the death of the empire.
@@Raptor_Ren No, they didn’t counter attack because there was no reason to do so, it would be a waste. The tie defender program was gone. Thrawn was gone. And they already had the resources they needed to mine the planet of.
@@EmeralBookwise ,the Missile Boat was specifically designed to counter the TIE Defender,whilst the Gunboat has better armour and cost,with whatever advantages the Defender had being null in the face of a tractor beam from the Gunboat.
@@NareshSinghOctagon: Problem is, TIE Defenders could also be equipped with those same tractor beams and were actually designed with them in mind, so their onboard reactors had enough power to make the most of them. Gunboats were only ever retrofitted with tractor beams and diverting power to them substantial cut into available power for other systems. The Gunboat might have had better armor, but the TIE defender more than made up for that with state of the art shields and incredible maneuverability. A weaker hull isn't much of a down side if they never take a direct hit. As for Missileboats, while ostensibly designed to counter the TIE defender, they were also very much a specialty crafter. In the hands of a pilot specifically trained in their use, missile boats could be one of the deadliest fighters, but TIE Defenders were more robust ship requiring less training and more viable for a wider ranger of missions.
JMess 00 I would think he know more about the yuuzahn vong then we know. If you read those books about the vong war. The galaxy had a way better chance of stopping the world ships then they did now
Well because in this regard Palpatine was not concerned with Rebelion. but it was rather weapon against the Force itself. his teacher once pushed the Force so far it pushed back (Anakin)... and Palpatine knew that sooner or later light side will push back. by providing hope. And Deathstar was weapon designed to crush hope on galactic scale. in general I consider it flawed aproach.
+Frans Kamstra Actually legends Luke Skywalker once expressed regret that Galaxy gun was lost - as that would be utterly best for destroying those worldships.
JMess 00 I have always speculated, that Palpatine wanted the deathstar as a means to create a place of corruption. similar to the mass shadow generator which Revan used at the end of the mandalorian war on malacor V. a weapon that could kill so many people at once that the echo of their deaths would not end but stay in place. killing a planet in one shot and then staying at the place of destruction to convert important key figures thought the echos all the deaths would leave behind in the force. that would also explain why the deathstar had such a high number of holding cells. it was a weapon to kill, but more than that, to break people. after all, every war is, on the end, a war of conversion. and being able to convert every (potential) enemy is a useful tool to have. if it can destroy just about every physical resistance as well as mental one, than it the perfect means to conquer and rule. just my thoughts on the matter. p.s.: as a not native speaker I always appreciate featback, so I can improve on my English
The Death Star(s) were the obsessions that brought the fall of the Empire. If the Empire outmatched the rebels in fighter tech and had no obvious target to bring about a turning point, it's doubtful the Rebellion would have succeeded. Not to mention the PR nightmare the Death Star was (not terribly surprising when you reflect on the name Death Star). Destroying Alderan disillusioned many Imperials. Then without it's presence there was far less fear to keep people in line. The moral of the story is: When your best military leader and pilot/#2 give you advice, take it.
What they should have done was something akin to the Darksaber (not the Mandalorean artifact - the Hutt-funded post-Endor project). The Darksaber sacrificed the giant that's-no-moon-ness of the Death Star, instead being a cylinder with just the laser, power source, an engine and some shields. Now, the Hutt Darksaber was an underfunded, sloppily-built disaster, but the Empire easily could have made a more stable version to tow into battle surrounded by Star Destroyers and could have had several, uh, "Death Sticks" to spread around the galaxy, each of which with far fewer personnel on board to risk. I suppose that wouldn't look as impressively invincible as the real Death Star, but it also wouldn't be a crippling blow if you lost one.
I just don't see the point of a Death Star. I'm the first to admit it's cool, but practically it makes no sense. Several Star Destroyers could annihilate all life on a planet with orbital bombardment. So why sacrifice the TIE defender for a battle station who's role could be fulfilled by several Star Destroyers? Bear in mind the Empire had 25,000 of them at its peak. So it's not like it couldn't spare a few to bombard a planet into oblivion.
Tsar Fox This is why I always took issue with Legends' understanding of Base Delta Zero. I'm not against the idea that the Empire can ruin a planet with conventional fire, but I believe that it should take much, much longer than is usually depicted - months at a minimum, possibly years, and all that ammunition should be quite expensive. Turbolasers just don't seem powerful enough to do the damage needed to glass a planet in an efficient amount of time. Wreck a city in a few hours, yes. Render a landmass uninhabitable? No. Now, a lot of Star Wars planets have only one or two cities, so orbital bombardment might be more practical there, but a multi-billion person world is going to take forever. In Legends itself, the Death Star could probably take out a planet with a good planetary shield, which would otherwise repel ordinary Star Destroyers.
True enough. Planetary shielding would definitely make it much harder to wreck a planet with orbital bombardment. However, I still think the Death Star is a bad move. Allocate 1,000 Star Destroyers to bombard a planet and they'll get the job done. Hell, just mount a land invasion to destroy their shield generators. And really, most multi-billion worlds were in the core and loyal to The Empire. So there would be no need to wipe them out. Even if some multi-billion worlds rebels, the TIE defender is worth it. Star Destroyers were basically WWII battleships: focus on big guns for bombardment. They did have a relatively small hanger though, so quality of fighters could make a huge difference. As long as they had a good fighter to take out rebel fighter attacks, they could park over a planet and bombard it until the job was done.
@@khadenallast4495 The TIE/D was worth it. With Vader's suggested modifications, small squadrons would have decimated rebellion fleets. And a single aircraft carrier can still only ever cover one area at a time. Whereas having TIE Defenders docked in ISDs and capital ships, to be deployed in multiple sectors at once, is far more efficient method of control and covering those sectors. A military tactician, you are not.
well - Thrawn did get to upgrades... Ezra flying the prototype is the proof... I kind of hope that in Third book when those two and Chimeara are stuck in unknown regions will get the Nssiss clawcraft.
Before :D Its just after Atollon. Defender elite is the last season. Its really nice how competent authors can tie all canon together. rather then some utterly ignoring everything someone else does.
Well Tim Zahn was saying he got contract for 3... and he was trying to pitch fourth in order for term "Thrawn trilogy" to not be confusing... (and well dualogy does not help... one already exists)
I've always thought that the empire should have put someone like thrawn in control of the navy from the start. He was a brilliant tactician and unlike palpatine he only wishes to further the empire not the sith.
They don’t exactly have the political intuition to built a broad support base. Vader inspires the troops. But their political influence is limited by an officer corps and several other factions that hate him. Thrawn likewise finds common ground with the reformists. But even there the group is divided by numerous competing factions like Krennic's wonder weapons group. On top of that you get people who don’t care either way and would rather use these conflicts for their own personal benefit.
If Emperor listened to Darth Vader and Thrawn the two greatest commanders of Empire then Rebelion would be crushed, imagine Tie Defenders defending Death Star instead of standard Ties
uhh the only reason Palpatine failed is because he tried to win the war AND convert Luke at the same time... if he didnt hold back the fleet they could have easily crushed the rebels, if he unleashed the Deathstar the moment rebel fleet got out of hyperspace he would have crushed them - imagine first thing after arriving is seeing your flagship get obliterated, Ackbar lost and noone taking command in the confusion ... the ONLY reason rebels had any chance whatsoever was because Emperor held both fleet and battlestation back to use them to pressure the Luke into fighting his father ...
What people need to also remember is that the full TIE Fighter complement of the first Death Star wasn't used,just a single squadron. I highly doubt 7000 of them at once couldn't blast the living crap out of the Rebellion through sheer volume of fire,let alone accurately shooting at the snubfighters.
If TIE Defenders were prevalent, it would overwhelm the Rebel fighters (being faster and better armed & armored in dogfights) and be capable of doing the same hit and fade attacks the Rebels were famous for, and responding more quickly to said attacks. The only flaw listed in the TIE Defender that I can see is that it had a Class 2 Hyperdrive instead of Class 1 like Rebel fighters, as the lower the number the faster in Hyperspace it can travel. This could be due to the cost of hyperdrives and the rather high numbers of fighters in the Imperial Navy when compared to the Rebels.
I remember flying alongside Vader in a tie defender as Maarek Stele in tie fighter. I remember the Sith Lord found them to be impressive. Most impressive.
I flew some missions in the TIE Defender with Vader as my wingman back in the day. I remember it well. Admiral Zaarin had gone rogue and kidnapped the Emperor. The Defender was the only ship fast enough to catch up to Zaarin's turncoats. Vader wanted to see my piloting abilities and had plans for me within the Secret Order of the Empire so I was flight lead in Alpha 1. Vader's Defender was designated Alpha 6. We saved the Emperor that day.
My first introduction to the TIE Defender was while playing the collector's edition CD-ROM game: Star Wars: TIE Fighter. It was a magnificent fighter and my single-most favorite TIE. There was even a few missions that had cutscenes of Vader overseeing the project.
I’d give an arm and my legs to see an official star wars alternate universe series where Thrawn works together with Vader to save the Empire and the Galaxy from the tyranny of the rebel alliance
God, what-if story anthologies in Star Wars would work _so well._ Not only would it allow all the old canon to maintain relevance at an arm's distance, it would allow so many plotholes to be filled as new canons allow for questions to get answered. Pity no one at the Mouse House has the balls or the plans to push such a project, because they're utter hacks.
Hey Star Commander! Review is recorded and just being edited now, and will 100% be up on Monday morning. I am still on the fence of whether it will be ~30-45 minutes though. That said, I know people enjoy the podcast-type reviews with lots of discussion, so I might keep most of my rants in. :)
I'm pretty sure Thrawn dies in Legends. I read those books which were the only ones, and he died while unsuccessful in bringing back any empire. Hopefully if they bring him back they will make better use of him than in legends. I liked the new version of him in rebels than what he was in legends.
@@michaelmichaelagnew8503 False, actually. Thrawn wasn't unsuccessful, he was actually bullying tf out of the NR, and then got killed by his bodyguard during a battle.
I had no doubt that Lord Vader would thoroughly enjoy The Defender. It has always been an impressive Ship since it was first shown in TIE Fighter. When I read back in the day that they were not Canon, I was quite depressed. So when I saw them in Rebela I was overly excited knowing that this incredible ship FINALLY made it in!
You are correct, he was more than happy that there were books, comics, and that his own video games were so well liked. Since he stated clearly, as you mentioned, the EU was not his canon. So if it is not his canon, then it is not Official Canon. When Heir to the Empire came out people became rabid on the idea that it was Official.
Thrawn is like that young kids who hang out with the older kids because nobody listened to him even though he's a mad genius who deserve to become emperor
Fun Fact: The TIE-Defender actually appears in the Star Wars: Battlefront. Renegade Squadron for the PSP. In some space battle maps it can be used via capturing neutral space stations and it's a freaking insane star fighter with machinegun-style lasers, anti-fighter missiles, and good speed.
I played the TIE Fighter game back in 1995. The fighter was specifically introduced for this game, but there were only 2 missions aside from training missions were the player could use the fighter. It certainly was a completely overpowered design. The speed of an A-Wing with the firepower that rivaled a X-Wing and missile loadout normally reserved for bigger and slower ships like Y-Wings or the TIE-Bomber.
During the expansion campaign the Admiral Zaarin who was behind the Defender project turned traitor and wanted to establish himself as an independent warlord. In his campaign he destroyed the manufacturing plants for more advanced starfighters like the TIE Advanced and TIE Defender. With the manufacturing abilities gone and the second Death Star having priority in resources, the TIE Defender project was scrapped. The remaining TIE Advanced were assigned to Thrawn in a special task force to hunt down Zaarin. Zaarin was taken down during the same time as the battle of Endor, which explains the absence of more advanced fighters or Thrawn himself.
In the old SW space sim games, the two fighters that gave me the most joy were the A Wing and the TIE Defender. They were quality starfighters, the best of their era. And as we all know, Vader had great taste in fighter design.
Imagine if all the resources went into TIE Defenders instead of the first Death Star. Destroying a planet in one blast is one thing but it'd probably be more impactful if *millions of advanced fighter craft blacken the sky and rain down on the surface.* Plus it won't die to like, a single proton torpedo.
This brings me back to the 90s. In the game TIE fighter, during the ultimate mission to the end, you have Darth Vader as your wingman in a group of Defenders. That ship is faster than an a-wing as heavily armored as a B wing, and untouchable.
As brilliant as Thrawn was, I don't think he ever realized that the Empire wasn't just fighting rebels, but an omnipresent energy field which hates the Emperor and gives said rebels plot armor levels of luck. Superior tactics can only go so far in those circumstances, so the Empire needed weapons of terror like the Death Star to prevent people from revolting more than it needed efficient weapons of war like the TIE defender.
@@khadenallast4495 I think you're reading too much into it. I meant that Vader flying a Defender was cool. As for the design, it just looks cool, but I'm sure there's an in-universe reason for it.
The first time I ever heard of the TIE-Defender was back in the early 90's when they released TIE-Fighter for DOS (still an excellent game to this day). I need to find a compatible joystick to play it again.
@@elfdrow6679 Same with the Steam release. However, I installed the original floppies in DOSBox and it runs great, but I can't get joystick support for some reason. What I miss about games like that is that you don't have to deal with trading and all the other stuff like in modern games. I'm very happy to be a starfighter for some military doing missions. The Freespace series is another favorite of mine but it seems like after that game, the 'starfighter' genre died. :(
@@ikeyasector I think DOSbox have a way to configure joystick support (there are some tutorials about it) and yeah, even the rogue squadron were not that good. X-wing, tie figther, X-wing vs tie, wing commander, maybe (I know you didn't like trading but it was good XD ) freelancer. and then... not much. in theory star wars: squadrons (2020) tries to copy the formula but, no idea. haven't tried it. no enough time this year T_T
I want them to do a star wars "what if" series like they're doing with marvel and one of the episodes should be "What if the empire went all in on TIE Defenders."
the tie defender feels like the ARC-170 on steroids pretty much a heavy fighter bomber with a whole squadron able to hold it own against a wide variety of targets
No matter which canon, the Rebellion is lucky the TIE Defender was not mass produced. That and the Missile Boat. Good lord those ships were overpowered.
I really should try to make a Tie Fighter PC game story again. Things would have to be changed. Thrawn will be replaced with a new character, Zaarin would have picked up Thrawn's Tie Defender project and start it again, though with a couple differences, including swapping two lasers with ion cannons.
IF Defenders would become a thing in the Imperial Fleet then this would be literally GAME OVER for the Rebellion, because not even X-Wings would be a match for those shielded and heavy armed TiEs...
I always enjoy stuff with Thrawn and Vader. They are tactically gifted and Vader is suited to being out in the fight. Nobody would be able to stop a Vader and Thrawn led faction especially since they got along well.
Palpatine and Tarkin vs Thrawn and Vader plus whatever conventional assets and personnel save superweapons so no Death Stars or Eclipses or non-standard Force powers ie: no Force Storms and the like, or overpowered units ie: Hands, Royal Guards, Inquisitiors, secret apprentices and the like could go either way
The Tarkin novel explains that The Emperor wanted the Death Star to be a hate sink, giving him the emotion to feed on but directing the hate away from him personally. But with the Defender, I would love the X-Wing tabletop game had Vader in one, though I can’t imagine the point cost... lol
If they had done a distributed production line of multiple facilities or even got into mobile hyperspace capable factories for these ships it would have done so much better Redundancy has it's strengths, keeping multiple copies of the blueprints would have been a good idea.
If the Empire had gone with a dispersed force rather than concentrated (as with the Death Star), then the Empire would have been extremely difficult to topple. What kept the Death Star project going was probably the fact that the Empire had already spent a great deal of time and resources on the project.
And if all else fails, you can HYPERSPACE RAM the nearest capital ship. According to Rian Johnson's star wars canon, hyperspace ramming is veeerrryyy effective!!!
@@Bryan-dr5qy Yes, because the ships actually collide... The lightspeed ramming literally wouldn't happen. They call it "jumping into hyperspace" for a reason... They literally skip into another dimension which acts as a sort of galactic highway. The ONLY reason that fuckfest of a scene happened is because Rian Johnson gives as many fucks about Star Wars as JJ about resolving mysteries he sets up.
@@sebastianb.3978 "Traveling through hyperspace ain't like dusting crops, boy! Without precise calculations we could fly right through a star or bounce too close to a supernova and that'd end your trip real quick, wouldn't it?"
Bryan 8108 What is that supposed to tell me? It basically confirms what I said; that the JUMP through hyperspace sees a ship jumping from one place in the galaxy to another by travelling through a hyperdimension. If that quote was supposed to shut me up, conqratulations, it did the opposite.
Vader + TIE Defender + Death Star Trench Run = ???
I hope that you all enjoy today's video, thank you as always for watching everyone! :)
Star Wars Reading Club If Vader piloted a TIE Defender during the battle of Yavin... the outcome would have been different.
Andrew Vert Fully agreed
Him using the tie defender then we would have seeen a certain victory as it would have been extreamly hard to dodge its missiles in such a close ambient or vader wingman’s in a tie defender? Even worst he would have just comunicate fire missiles while he shooted to avoid him from dodging so they had a 100% chance of hit, done end of the film the empire wins (Glory to the Empire)
Star Wars Reading Club
Vader + TIE Defender + Death Star Trench Run = All Rebels Torn Apart By 4 Dedicated Laser Cannons, 2 Ion Cannons and Speed Drastically Greater Than X-Wings
Vader would mop the floor with them and be home in time for a moon being blown to pieces. Luke would not make it anywhere near as close as he did and Han would be too far out to help.
I would not mind though. I actually like the Empire for the most part.
It would have been a very bad day for Luke and his friends.
Even as a Sith Lord, Anakin can’t resist trying out the fastest ship in the galaxy and saying he could do better.
This is a great comment
This Is Where The Fun Begins
Hauling ass, titties and ass. Things men enjoy.
He just wants to say now this is pod racing
Yeah he wants to spin in it
In vaders head: NOW THIS IS POD RACING
Yippee!
danny fenlon lets try spinning that's a good trick
"This reminds me of the glory days of the Clone Wars. Back when I could feel and express things such as joy. Things I can't do anymore."
danny fenlon The best part is that TIE fighters are basically pods with wings and engines. Now this is pod racing.
XD
Darth Vader thought: “Impressive... most impressive.”
Yeah better than the Death Star...
"A Death Star? I cannot race with this."
"But Zaarin made it first"
vader: why are we building deathstars when a fleet of carriers loaded with these things could planet lock all those filthy rebels
Now I get why Vader becomes your buddy in TIE Fighter.
1: You're competent
2: You're loyal to the Empire
3: You're a front line soldier
4: You fly around with him and attack things
Sith generally are remarkably easy to get along with so long as you don't have a habit of failure.
@@steelgreyed
Well, so long as you don't have a habit of failure, aren't a force sensitive and can be some sort of use to them, anyway.
Also depends on the individual Sith. Dooku would be the easiest to get along with, since if you really analyze his character he's actually not that bad to begin with. Palpatine would be the hardest, but it's entirely his fault since he's a total psycho.
@@steelgreyed oh so like school teachers
@@Suguru_Geto69 Yeah, except without the whole protecting you from your own ignorance nuance... (its all part of proper programming, the ingore extra commas, please, part)
True
If the TIE Defender was mass produced along with Thrawn and Vader working together more, the entire Rebellion would've been crushed in a matter of days.
It was the fact that they used tie Fighters, as the rebels primary fighter, the x-wing was much faster. Even if they had mass produced a fighter like the tie interceptor or the tie advanced, let alone the tie defender, all three would’ve crushed the rebellion. The fact that the empire didn’t push fighters as much as they should’ve, like maybe put something like a few venators in their fleet, didn’t help either.
thing is, most of the fleet was not fighting rebels, they were a police keeping force there to keep the population suppressed and under control. So spending more for a less intimidating ship probably didn't make sense to the leaders at the time. Kind of like the rolls of tanks in WW1 vs what they would become in WW2 that had most in power surprised at the tactics. Another example would be battleships vs dive bombers at the very beginning of WW2. Many thought that a massive battleship would overpower any fleet, and few considered using a plane for more than intelligence gathering at the time. So when what most considered to be a flock of Mosquitos destroyed multiple battleships, it was a big surprise and too late to adopt a new tactic at that moment in time.
Vader may have had plans to use the new fighter, tho it would have taken time, and many were holding to their WW1 way of thinking, so when the Death Star was destroyed it simply was too late to implement WW2 tech and tactics with the WW1 equipment and armies they had at their disposal.
I'd agree with you Zarcondeegrissom, except for one very important thing. The Clone Wars.
The Clone Wars demonstrated time and time again the value of fighters. Repeatedly the Republic defeated the much more numerous Separatist squadrons with their superior fighter craft, and on numerous occasions used small strike teams to cripple or destroy much larger targets like the Malevolence. Virtually the entirety of the Imperial high command following the rise of the Empire and the transition using trash fighters were commanders who served in the Clone Wars. They saw first hand that quality >>> quantity. Yet they didn't stick with the doctrine that won them the last war, they literally adopted the worst aspects of both the Republic's and the Separatist tactics; using costly non-disposable troops with the cheapest most disposable equipment. Nor did they switch to a policing force style of navy, they would have invested far more heavily into Arquitens and hyperspace capable fighters that could actually chase down smugglers and pirates while having the power to deal with them as necessary. Instead, massive Star Destroyers that are best for fighting other massive warships (and orbital bombardment) and having to pick up your fighters before jumping or leaving them behind.
It's more akin to fighting WW1/2, and preparing for the next war by going to pre-WW1 era tactics and getting your men to fight in long lines with muskets. No wonder the Empire lost.
The naval side of that always gets a chuckle from me, as, by pure coincidence American doctrine was forced years ahead, thanks to losing most their standard naval vessels.
But, yeah, for people who are simply policing, fighting pirates, and occasionally putting down rebellions, a fighter seems useless.
A nice big command ship with troops and an intimidating figure feels like a far better choice. Especially since they also double as decent fortresses in their own right.
The Empire needed the ability to bombard more than enter into space battles. One requires capital ships. The other requires frigates, corvettes & fighters.
Vader also mentioned that the Defender needed a better roll rate. After all, spinning is a good trick.
Grand Admiral Thrawn Yes it is a good trick.
would have been interesting if the defenders 3 wings could extend and retract to adjust to what was needed like pulling in the wings more of maneuvering room was tight.
The T-65B X-Wing cannot, in open space or atmosphere, out-manoeuvre a TIE Defender without the utilisation of smoke screens or other appropriate countermeasures. The one example wherein a Defender was downed by an X-Wing saw said X-Wing lure the Defender into ion cannon fire, nullifying its shields, and then into a smoke screen (which just so happened to be ISD Chimaera's communications array). Finally, the X-Wing, piloted by Hera Syndulla, would cut out her engines and fire on the confused TIE Defender pilot Vult Skerris, downing the starfighter unconventionally.
Adam Taurus um... there is no drag in space, or at least it’s extremely minuscule.
@@feartheghus Except we often see tie class ships in atmosphere as well. So drag would still be an issue. Especially areodynymaically unsound designs that need rely on repulsor technology to remain airborne in planetary atmosphere.
As always, NO ONE LISTENS TO THRAWN.
And thus die in the process
I am by no means a Thrawn expert, but didn't Thrawn have a special emphasis on mobility and flexibility in imperial tactics. While hyperdrives are expensive, they can be used for precise jumps into enemy formations and for ambushes. I think Thrawn would have loved to use them in battle.
Hyperdrives on fighters is one of the reasons the Rebels won the war. It gave them a much bigger operational range compared to TIE fighters that would have to dock with a Star Destroyer before jumping. The Defender also had stronger lasers as well as the ability to launch proton torpedoes, making them more effective against capital ships. All that plus the new shielding made the ship too energy intensive, hence the third wing required in the Defender compared to normal TIEs (the wings of TIEs are solar panels that power the ship).
@@khadenallast4495 The hyperdrives *did* matter, though. How many times has this happened: a squad of Rebel ships drops out of hyperspace, blasts their target away, then jumps away before a defense can be mounted. Or an attack goes south, the Rebels lose their main ship, and the remaining fighters are able to jump away to safety and regroup rather than being left sitting ducks. Guerilla warfare necessitates being able to quickly get in and out of combat without your opponent being able to retaliate. The rebels wouldn't have lasted nearly as long if squadrons of TIEs could jump after them to mop up.
@@khadenallast4495 A hyperdrive is important because Rebel X-Wings uses a tactic which involves jumping into Hyperspace and jumping out from another location attacking from the side or behind.
I recently read the Treason book where six tie defenders did a bunch of hyperspace jumps to take out two grysk warships. So the hyperdrives on ties is a definite must
By it's design and obvious cost I feel like Thrawn looked at the defender less as a full replacement for the regular TIE (the replacement role was better served by the interceptor) and more as an air/space superiority fighter, basically a fighter that even deployed in small numbers could wreck most other fighters it would go up against. It scared the rebels to death, I mean look at their run ins with just one of them on two separate occasions, had it been deployed as a fully trained and functional wing the rebels limited supply of fighters at the time would have been decimated over the course of several engagements.
As an aside, Vader's suggestion of simplified controls to make it more accessible to other pilots is what enabled Ezra and Sabine to pilot it well enough during their attempted theft of the prototype and also why Thrawn was pleased by their taking down the interceptors sent to pursue them....because it meant Vader's suggestion bore fruit and it could be picked up easily by non-ace pilots.
I mostly agree however it would end up in multi-role missions as this Space Superiority Interceptor "is" also more heavily loaded out than many dedicated bombers.. This was a capital AND snub craft threat.
This made me think about battlefront ea, and makes me wish there was reinforcement units for the air fights instead of just hero units
"All paths lead to a victory." Thrawn doesn't even flinch.
If they had invested in the TIE Defender instead of the Death Star, the Empire could've made more than 3.3 million TIE Defenders. That's enough to outfit all 25000 active duty ISDs with nothing but TIE Defenders and still have 1.58 million left over.
@@demi-femme4821 lose the ability to destroy planets. Gain the ability to destroy anything from said planets. Good trade imo.
Wow. You know Vader's impressed when he outright compliments you vs simply calling your efforts adequate.
The fact that Darth Vader not only supported the project all the way to the Emperor, but also gave recommendations for upgrades, tells me that he wanted the project to go as far as it could. Clearly Thrawn and Vader were on the same page
@@seanwhitman8353 Vader was a pilot at heart, the man loved to fly. The TIE Defender is one of the best starfighters in galactic history, he'd be geeking out about it constantly.
@@VegetaLF7 he was probably pissed that the program was ruined
I once read a theory that when the Tie Defender budget was downsized for the Death Star he was so pissed that he let the Rebels take the Death Star plans so the Rebels could destroy it. Hoping for change and not knowing Palpatine’s plans for Death Star 2
Vader *gives it full throttle* "this is where the fu..."
Mission control: "my lord is something wrong?"
Vader: "...negative."
Crossbone Vanguard lol
"Now THIS is pod racing!"
"I'll try spinning, that's a good trick!"
"I have a bad feeling about this."
Vader: Yes why do you say Thrawn made this ship *WHEN ZAARIN DID?* _chokes mission control_
I can imagine Vader taking the defender for a “test flight” and while no one can hear him, cheering and yelling out of excitement at how awesome they were, having the time of his life, just flying around blasting asteroids
Vader: "Master I think you should seriously consider mass producing these TIES. They are excellent for-"
Palpatine: "We don't have the funds right now Lord Vader. I'm building my ship the Eclipse."
Vader: "The Eclipse?"
Palpatine: "Yeah its this HUGE FUCKING SHIP More than twice the length of a Super Star Destroyer!"
Vader: "That sounds like a complete waste of-"
Palpatine: "Leave me alone Vader. I'm busy discussing future plants for the Eclipse 2. Its 18 times the length of the Eclipse 1."
Vader: "...."
in his head: "Someone's compensating his deficiencies..."
the eclipse was not a bad idea though.
the problem is that they should have made 10 eclipses instead of the DS-2
Palps was definitely a size queen
Sounds like a Robot Chicken episode
We need an F in the chat for Vader.
I am with Thrawn's strategy personally on a smaller more flexible fleet than relying heavily on one massive super weapon that will take up so many resources.
Prioritizing the flexible military force would be better than a giant moon, that would be secondary
Zaarin get your facts right Thrawn had nothing to do with the defender project.
@サイレントボイス not in the EU.
@サイレントボイス Grand Admiral Zaarin invented the Tie Defender model, when he later defected, because he hated force users he took the production with him so that the empire would not have it...
@サイレントボイス Zaarin did.
*Darth Vader over an open comm without realising*
“ Now THIS is pod racing!”
*Random Imperial officer*
“My Lord?... is something wro...”
*Force Choked to death, then switches to private Comm*
“......... Shiiiiit........😐”
NO WITNESSES!!!
Thrawn: *thinks to self* i knew it.
Vader: Thrawwwwwn.
Thrawn: Yes Lord Vader?
Vader: did you hear that?
Thrawn: no.
Vader: you sure?
thrawn: yes.
Vader: *probes his mind* ....fair enough. I sense nothing from you.
Thrawn *at his death* : By the way i know you're anakin BYEEEE!!!
Vader: GODDAMIT!!!!
@@Zarryon12 Lmao
If the death star was not built we could have had 300000 tie defenders.
Barry Bend But then you couldn't destroy planets, including planets being used as projectiles, or anything with heavy planetary shields.
lancer737 the death star was a massive waste of resources. The navy under thrawn would be more of a threat.
+lancer737
You also save yourself the cost of losing all those quadrillions of dollars invested from a singular proton torpedo hitting and decimating your overly costly space station.
Try to do the same with 300 tie defenders, nevermind a thousand times that
The way I see it is like this: the death star while powerful is still just one thing, it is limited in where it can be at any time, what it can attack at any time, what it can defend at any time, and it becomes a giant target as your enemies know that if they can destroy that one thing they will cripple you and will probably beat you.
lancer737 the ssd is strong enough to over whelm planetary shields
Thrawn: How was the defender?
Vader: *violent, yet joyous flash backs of the clone wars as 1812 overture plays* ....It's a good ship
Contrary to popular belief, the Empire wasn't stupid for building the first Death Star. They had no reason to suspect the Rebels would be able to destroy it.
Building the second Death Star? Now that was stupid.
Good point.
Don't fix what isn't broken
Clearly a better fighter and small craft defence capability would have helped aswell. Especially around those sensitive areas of the new death star..... Maybe even smaller forcefields/shields to provide some added protection for thouse dreaded outlets where torpedoes or entire fighters/small ships could slip in and destroy the central reactors or coolants. Better fighter cover and turrets aswell as mini forcefields in that area would have gone a long way. Maybe even a few tractor beam generators... Just look at how tractor beams could capture the milenium falcon in "A new hope".
Then again, it was part of the plot for the second death star to be destroyed.
I think the stupid part was not eliminating those furry little Ewoks in the first place. In Choices of One (A Legends novel, but a good one), Senior Captain Thrawn recommended eliminating them. Palpatine rejected the recommendation which was when Thrawn realized that Palpatine was planning an ambush. If only Palpatine had listened to Thrawn...and not been so arrogant, he could've eliminated the Rebels...or in his death, the Rebels may have been eliminated too.
The second death star was a trap for the rebellion.
Moral of the story: listen to Thrawn.
ALWAYS listen to Thrawn
Thrawn is just a stupid Chiss
@Jeremy Dale
Thrawn is based on a collection of smart men who were NOT listened too.
He was in the Alexander the Great, Julius Ceaser, Huns & Visi-goths who toppled Rome in a sries of small attacks, Genghis Khan, Napoleon category.
That is, small fast and versatile is better than one big knock out punch.
Alexander the Great was THE best example.
An army of 35 - 40,000 within two years wiped out THE world's Greatest Empire at the time and along with it, THE title of . .
KING of Kings in Darius II.
Death Star = 1 × Big Knock-out
Punch
Based on pride, ego and fear.
Again, that is someone else's fear.
The Rebels had balls/large cajones.
Sidious thought they were nothing but angry wasps attacking an elephant 🐘.
It turns out the wasps were killer bees.
It only took one clever killer bee to sting the elephant in its central nervous system and voila . . .
Ka Boom 💥 ì
and then an imperial decided to blow up the fuel back in lothal.
Governor Pryce, she’s as clumsy as she is stupid.
Cough, PRYCE, COUGH
I don’t know the precise timeline of REBELS, but the fact the Empire didn’t counter attack Lothal indicates to me the battle of Yavin happened shortly after. If a few dozen tie defenders had been ready on the Death Star the Rebels would have been screwed.
In other words, Pryce’s incompetence led to the death of the empire.
@@Raptor_Ren No, they didn’t counter attack because there was no reason to do so, it would be a waste. The tie defender program was gone. Thrawn was gone. And they already had the resources they needed to mine the planet of.
I bet Darth Vader would've been an even tougher pilot to take down if he had his own personal TIE Defender.
Just wait until he gets his mechanical hands on a Gunboat and a Missileboat.
Vader was THE best pilot in the galaxy. The Defender would’ve made him a piloting God.
@@NareshSinghOctagon: Missileboat maybe, but the TIE Defender was superior to a Gunboat in every way.
@@EmeralBookwise ,the Missile Boat was specifically designed to counter the TIE Defender,whilst the Gunboat has better armour and cost,with whatever advantages the Defender had being null in the face of a tractor beam from the Gunboat.
@@NareshSinghOctagon: Problem is, TIE Defenders could also be equipped with those same tractor beams and were actually designed with them in mind, so their onboard reactors had enough power to make the most of them. Gunboats were only ever retrofitted with tractor beams and diverting power to them substantial cut into available power for other systems.
The Gunboat might have had better armor, but the TIE defender more than made up for that with state of the art shields and incredible maneuverability. A weaker hull isn't much of a down side if they never take a direct hit.
As for Missileboats, while ostensibly designed to counter the TIE defender, they were also very much a specialty crafter. In the hands of a pilot specifically trained in their use, missile boats could be one of the deadliest fighters, but TIE Defenders were more robust ship requiring less training and more viable for a wider ranger of missions.
I still wonder why sideous went ahead with the death star. Of all his plans throughout his life appeared flawless, except this one.
JMess 00 I would think he know more about the yuuzahn vong then we know. If you read those books about the vong war. The galaxy had a way better chance of stopping the world ships then they did now
Well because in this regard Palpatine was not concerned with Rebelion. but it was rather weapon against the Force itself.
his teacher once pushed the Force so far it pushed back (Anakin)... and Palpatine knew that sooner or later light side will push back. by providing hope. And Deathstar was weapon designed to crush hope on galactic scale.
in general I consider it flawed aproach.
+Frans Kamstra
Actually legends Luke Skywalker once expressed regret that Galaxy gun was lost - as that would be utterly best for destroying those worldships.
JMess 00 I have always speculated, that Palpatine wanted the deathstar as a means to create a place of corruption. similar to the mass shadow generator which Revan used at the end of the mandalorian war on malacor V. a weapon that could kill so many people at once that the echo of their deaths would not end but stay in place. killing a planet in one shot and then staying at the place of destruction to convert important key figures thought the echos all the deaths would leave behind in the force. that would also explain why the deathstar had such a high number of holding cells. it was a weapon to kill, but more than that, to break people. after all, every war is, on the end, a war of conversion. and being able to convert every (potential) enemy is a useful tool to have. if it can destroy just about every physical resistance as well as mental one, than it the perfect means to conquer and rule.
just my thoughts on the matter.
p.s.:
as a not native speaker I always appreciate featback, so I can improve on my English
He was a great manipulator and planner in TCW but not too bright in the OT
Darh Vader: "Dibs."
*ZAARIN NOT THRAWN!*
Imagine if Vader ordered a Defender for himself upgraded to his specifications and his wingmen. That would have been a sight to behold.
Ah yes Darh Vader
@@admiralsand
He had to pawn the t for a while.
@@germanvisitor2 guess so
Vader's reaction was the only one there could have been.
This is good, but it needs more guns.
The power behind the T. Defender made him think about his pod racing days.
"Now this is pod racing"
The Death Star(s) were the obsessions that brought the fall of the Empire. If the Empire outmatched the rebels in fighter tech and had no obvious target to bring about a turning point, it's doubtful the Rebellion would have succeeded. Not to mention the PR nightmare the Death Star was (not terribly surprising when you reflect on the name Death Star). Destroying Alderan disillusioned many Imperials. Then without it's presence there was far less fear to keep people in line.
The moral of the story is: When your best military leader and pilot/#2 give you advice, take it.
What they should have done was something akin to the Darksaber (not the Mandalorean artifact - the Hutt-funded post-Endor project). The Darksaber sacrificed the giant that's-no-moon-ness of the Death Star, instead being a cylinder with just the laser, power source, an engine and some shields. Now, the Hutt Darksaber was an underfunded, sloppily-built disaster, but the Empire easily could have made a more stable version to tow into battle surrounded by Star Destroyers and could have had several, uh, "Death Sticks" to spread around the galaxy, each of which with far fewer personnel on board to risk. I suppose that wouldn't look as impressively invincible as the real Death Star, but it also wouldn't be a crippling blow if you lost one.
I just don't see the point of a Death Star. I'm the first to admit it's cool, but practically it makes no sense. Several Star Destroyers could annihilate all life on a planet with orbital bombardment. So why sacrifice the TIE defender for a battle station who's role could be fulfilled by several Star Destroyers? Bear in mind the Empire had 25,000 of them at its peak. So it's not like it couldn't spare a few to bombard a planet into oblivion.
Tsar Fox This is why I always took issue with Legends' understanding of Base Delta Zero. I'm not against the idea that the Empire can ruin a planet with conventional fire, but I believe that it should take much, much longer than is usually depicted - months at a minimum, possibly years, and all that ammunition should be quite expensive. Turbolasers just don't seem powerful enough to do the damage needed to glass a planet in an efficient amount of time. Wreck a city in a few hours, yes. Render a landmass uninhabitable? No. Now, a lot of Star Wars planets have only one or two cities, so orbital bombardment might be more practical there, but a multi-billion person world is going to take forever. In Legends itself, the Death Star could probably take out a planet with a good planetary shield, which would otherwise repel ordinary Star Destroyers.
True enough. Planetary shielding would definitely make it much harder to wreck a planet with orbital bombardment. However, I still think the Death Star is a bad move. Allocate 1,000 Star Destroyers to bombard a planet and they'll get the job done. Hell, just mount a land invasion to destroy their shield generators.
And really, most multi-billion worlds were in the core and loyal to The Empire. So there would be no need to wipe them out. Even if some multi-billion worlds rebels, the TIE defender is worth it. Star Destroyers were basically WWII battleships: focus on big guns for bombardment. They did have a relatively small hanger though, so quality of fighters could make a huge difference. As long as they had a good fighter to take out rebel fighter attacks, they could park over a planet and bombard it until the job was done.
@@khadenallast4495 The TIE/D was worth it. With Vader's suggested modifications, small squadrons would have decimated rebellion fleets. And a single aircraft carrier can still only ever cover one area at a time. Whereas having TIE Defenders docked in ISDs and capital ships, to be deployed in multiple sectors at once, is far more efficient method of control and covering those sectors. A military tactician, you are not.
well - Thrawn did get to upgrades... Ezra flying the prototype is the proof...
I kind of hope that in Third book when those two and Chimeara are stuck in unknown regions will get the Nssiss clawcraft.
hmmm cant remember if baatu would be before or after he came up with the tie defender elite.
Before :D Its just after Atollon. Defender elite is the last season. Its really nice how competent authors can tie all canon together.
rather then some utterly ignoring everything someone else does.
Hopefully we get a third book
Well Tim Zahn was saying he got contract for 3... and he was trying to pitch fourth in order for term "Thrawn trilogy" to not be confusing... (and well dualogy does not help... one already exists)
zaarin.
What said Vader to Thrawn about TiE Defender: "Impressive, most impressive."
I've always thought that the empire should have put someone like thrawn in control of the navy from the start. He was a brilliant tactician and unlike palpatine he only wishes to further the empire not the sith.
Well back in 1977 - 1983 during the first three movies Thrawn didnt exist. He didn't come around till Legends.
I do remember in A New Hope, Vader himself was unconvinced that the first Death Star wasn't going to succeed
I headcanon he was salty that he couldn't fly a faster fighter anymore
Now He went to save Ezra from Thrawn that he Free Lothal using the Purgill
I gave my like *for flexible strategiiieees...*
Flex T.I.E Tape
I gave my dislike for the plaugerism from thrawn.
Vader and Thrawn should have run the Empire- would have been unstoppable
They don’t exactly have the political intuition to built a broad support base.
Vader inspires the troops. But their political influence is limited by an officer corps and several other factions that hate him.
Thrawn likewise finds common ground with the reformists. But even there the group is divided by numerous competing factions like Krennic's wonder weapons group.
On top of that you get people who don’t care either way and would rather use these conflicts for their own personal benefit.
Vader knows a good ship when he tries it out for himself.
If Emperor listened to Darth Vader and Thrawn the two greatest commanders of Empire then Rebelion would be crushed, imagine Tie Defenders defending Death Star instead of standard Ties
uhh the only reason Palpatine failed is because he tried to win the war AND convert Luke at the same time... if he didnt hold back the fleet they could have easily crushed the rebels, if he unleashed the Deathstar the moment rebel fleet got out of hyperspace he would have crushed them - imagine first thing after arriving is seeing your flagship get obliterated, Ackbar lost and noone taking command in the confusion ...
the ONLY reason rebels had any chance whatsoever was because Emperor held both fleet and battlestation back to use them to pressure the Luke into fighting his father ...
Zaarin
What people need to also remember is that the full TIE Fighter complement of the first Death Star wasn't used,just a single squadron.
I highly doubt 7000 of them at once couldn't blast the living crap out of the Rebellion through sheer volume of fire,let alone accurately shooting at the snubfighters.
If TIE Defenders were prevalent, it would overwhelm the Rebel fighters (being faster and better armed & armored in dogfights) and be capable of doing the same hit and fade attacks the Rebels were famous for, and responding more quickly to said attacks. The only flaw listed in the TIE Defender that I can see is that it had a Class 2 Hyperdrive instead of Class 1 like Rebel fighters, as the lower the number the faster in Hyperspace it can travel. This could be due to the cost of hyperdrives and the rather high numbers of fighters in the Imperial Navy when compared to the Rebels.
They would have been more prevalent if the empire had listened to Grand admiral Zaarin.
I remember flying alongside Vader in a tie defender as Maarek Stele in tie fighter. I remember the Sith Lord found them to be impressive. Most impressive.
I flew some missions in the TIE Defender with Vader as my wingman back in the day. I remember it well. Admiral Zaarin had gone rogue and kidnapped the Emperor. The Defender was the only ship fast enough to catch up to Zaarin's turncoats. Vader wanted to see my piloting abilities and had plans for me within the Secret Order of the Empire so I was flight lead in Alpha 1. Vader's Defender was designated Alpha 6. We saved the Emperor that day.
My first introduction to the TIE Defender was while playing the collector's edition CD-ROM game: Star Wars: TIE Fighter. It was a magnificent fighter and my single-most favorite TIE. There was even a few missions that had cutscenes of Vader overseeing the project.
You know you've designed a masterpiece of a fighter when even Vader compliments it
Thrawn: "Lord Vader, the TIE Defender runs at lightspeed as a standard"
Darth Vader: "Needs to be faster"
I’d give an arm and my legs to see an official star wars alternate universe series where Thrawn works together with Vader to save the Empire and the Galaxy from the tyranny of the rebel alliance
Amen brother!
Anarchy might be a better term.
God, what-if story anthologies in Star Wars would work _so well._ Not only would it allow all the old canon to maintain relevance at an arm's distance, it would allow so many plotholes to be filled as new canons allow for questions to get answered.
Pity no one at the Mouse House has the balls or the plans to push such a project, because they're utter hacks.
The TIE Defender Elite we saw in Rebels is the product of Vader’s suggestions
Will you have a Thrawn Alliances review up soon? Like the 45 minute review of the previous Thrawn novel.
Hey Star Commander! Review is recorded and just being edited now, and will 100% be up on Monday morning. I am still on the fence of whether it will be ~30-45 minutes though. That said, I know people enjoy the podcast-type reviews with lots of discussion, so I might keep most of my rants in. :)
Star Wars Reading Club More Rants the better
Great vids all the time! Love hearing about the Thrawn/Vader relationship.
Now this is podracing intensifies
The new trilogy should have had Thrawn in it. Thrawn should also win and rule the galaxy as emperor.
Fapman CZ
Timothy Zahn even said that Thrawn would eat characters like Hux and Kylo Ren for breakfast.
And after becoming Emperor, Thrawn should make Mary Sue Rey serve him as a lowly chamber maid, making beds and doing laundry. Take that, SJW's!
Thrawn pales in comparison to Zaarin.
I'm pretty sure Thrawn dies in Legends. I read those books which were the only ones, and he died while unsuccessful in bringing back any empire. Hopefully if they bring him back they will make better use of him than in legends. I liked the new version of him in rebels than what he was in legends.
@@michaelmichaelagnew8503 False, actually. Thrawn wasn't unsuccessful, he was actually bullying tf out of the NR, and then got killed by his bodyguard during a battle.
I had no doubt that Lord Vader would thoroughly enjoy The Defender. It has always been an impressive Ship since it was first shown in TIE Fighter. When I read back in the day that they were not Canon, I was quite depressed. So when I saw them in Rebela I was overly excited knowing that this incredible ship FINALLY made it in!
Khaden Allast EU was never Official Canon As Per George Lucas.
You are correct, he was more than happy that there were books, comics, and that his own video games were so well liked. Since he stated clearly, as you mentioned, the EU was not his canon. So if it is not his canon, then it is not Official Canon. When Heir to the Empire came out people became rabid on the idea that it was Official.
As always, wonderful video Star Wars Reading Club!
Vader: .......
Small Anakin voice in his head: Admit it, this is a damn good fighter.
I like how thrawn and Vader are like to guys in a start up getting excited about a project
And then the guy who was supposed to fund it backed out and opted for something bigger and flashier. TWICE.
darth vader: wait a minute... I'm having fun!?
*When Vader gets into a TIE Advanced and takes it for spinning, because it's a good trick: "Now this is TIE Fighting!"
Thrawn is like that young kids who hang out with the older kids because nobody listened to him even though he's a mad genius who deserve to become emperor
Fun Fact: The TIE-Defender actually appears in the Star Wars: Battlefront. Renegade Squadron for the PSP. In some space battle maps it can be used via capturing neutral space stations and it's a freaking insane star fighter with machinegun-style lasers, anti-fighter missiles, and good speed.
Thrawn: I have this really cool Tie Fighter I want to show you
Vader and Anakin simultaneously : GIMME
Zaarin.
I played the TIE Fighter game back in 1995. The fighter was specifically introduced for this game, but there were only 2 missions aside from training missions were the player could use the fighter. It certainly was a completely overpowered design. The speed of an A-Wing with the firepower that rivaled a X-Wing and missile loadout normally reserved for bigger and slower ships like Y-Wings or the TIE-Bomber.
During the expansion campaign the Admiral Zaarin who was behind the Defender project turned traitor and wanted to establish himself as an independent warlord. In his campaign he destroyed the manufacturing plants for more advanced starfighters like the TIE Advanced and TIE Defender. With the manufacturing abilities gone and the second Death Star having priority in resources, the TIE Defender project was scrapped. The remaining TIE Advanced were assigned to Thrawn in a special task force to hunt down Zaarin. Zaarin was taken down during the same time as the battle of Endor, which explains the absence of more advanced fighters or Thrawn himself.
In the old SW space sim games, the two fighters that gave me the most joy were the A Wing and the TIE Defender. They were quality starfighters, the best of their era. And as we all know, Vader had great taste in fighter design.
I was unsure whether I should buy "Thrawn: Alliances" or not, but after watching this video. I'm buying this novel and "Thrawn" right now.
Imagine if all the resources went into TIE Defenders instead of the first Death Star. Destroying a planet in one blast is one thing but it'd probably be more impactful if *millions of advanced fighter craft blacken the sky and rain down on the surface.* Plus it won't die to like, a single proton torpedo.
This brings me back to the 90s. In the game TIE fighter, during the ultimate mission to the end, you have Darth Vader as your wingman in a group of Defenders. That ship is faster than an a-wing as heavily armored as a B wing, and untouchable.
Vader: Now this... this brings a smile to my face
As brilliant as Thrawn was, I don't think he ever realized that the Empire wasn't just fighting rebels, but an omnipresent energy field which hates the Emperor and gives said rebels plot armor levels of luck. Superior tactics can only go so far in those circumstances, so the Empire needed weapons of terror like the Death Star to prevent people from revolting more than it needed efficient weapons of war like the TIE defender.
Stuff like this makes me wonder why some fans complain about Canon. It’s AWESOME!
@@khadenallast4495 I think you're reading too much into it. I meant that Vader flying a Defender was cool. As for the design, it just looks cool, but I'm sure there's an in-universe reason for it.
For Vader to give a compliment that wasn't at the end of a Force Choke...you know it was indeed something special.
The first time I ever heard of the TIE-Defender was back in the early 90's when they released TIE-Fighter for DOS (still an excellent game to this day). I need to find a compatible joystick to play it again.
best game ever! specially back on DOS lol
last time I tried to play the steam version was... not completely bug free.
@@elfdrow6679 Same with the Steam release. However, I installed the original floppies in DOSBox and it runs great, but I can't get joystick support for some reason. What I miss about games like that is that you don't have to deal with trading and all the other stuff like in modern games. I'm very happy to be a starfighter for some military doing missions. The Freespace series is another favorite of mine but it seems like after that game, the 'starfighter' genre died. :(
@@ikeyasector I think DOSbox have a way to configure joystick support (there are some tutorials about it)
and yeah, even the rogue squadron were not that good.
X-wing, tie figther, X-wing vs tie, wing commander, maybe (I know you didn't like trading but it was good XD ) freelancer.
and then... not much.
in theory star wars: squadrons (2020) tries to copy the formula but, no idea. haven't tried it. no enough time this year T_T
Darth Vader: Approves 100%
Even 3 Tie Defenders at Endor would have been enough to catch and smoke the fighters and Millennium Falcon before they got to the core. IMHO.
TIE Fighter so amazing that Vader almost got flashbacks to his Jedi days
In the Star Wars Tie figher game and X-wing Alliance, the TIE Defender was my absolute favorite ship.
Vader knew good ship so it's not surprising that he supported Thrawn's TIE Defender project.
I want them to do a star wars "what if" series like they're doing with marvel and one of the episodes should be "What if the empire went all in on TIE Defenders."
Or what if order 66 didn’t happen and Palpatine died before he initiated it.
Lol * picture * Vader smiling ear to ear in his suit just ripping around loool
the tie defender feels like the ARC-170 on steroids pretty much a heavy fighter bomber with a whole squadron able to hold it own against a wide variety of targets
My favorite Tie Fighter in the Lucasarts game "Tie Fighter"!! The Tie Defender was a badass fighter!! Classic!
No matter which canon, the Rebellion is lucky the TIE Defender was not mass produced. That and the Missile Boat. Good lord those ships were overpowered.
So Vader fought his inner flyboy fanboy.
Vader: "No, THIS is pod racing!"
In the old Tie Fighter PC game, Darth Vader flew a Tie Defender
I really should try to make a Tie Fighter PC game story again. Things would have to be changed. Thrawn will be replaced with a new character, Zaarin would have picked up Thrawn's Tie Defender project and start it again, though with a couple differences, including swapping two lasers with ion cannons.
Now imagine if Vader were Emperor and Thrawn his enforcer. They make a pretty badass team.
I really enjoyed Thrawn Alliances, I just finished it.
"Now THIS is pod racing!"
I once flew along Lord Vader on TIE Defenders scrambled to save the Emperor! Those were the days...
In the end, Vader is still a pilot who appreciates fast machines.
I like how all the TIE variants have at least a little bit of the Sith Meditation Sphere in them.
"Shut up and take my credits!"
IF Defenders would become a thing in the Imperial Fleet then this would be literally GAME OVER for the Rebellion, because not even X-Wings would be a match for those shielded and heavy armed TiEs...
“Yeah it’s the best ship I’ve ever flown. I give it a B-“
The Defender looked like an Imperial version of the Chiss clawcraft.
I always enjoy stuff with Thrawn and Vader. They are tactically gifted and Vader is suited to being out in the fight. Nobody would be able to stop a Vader and Thrawn led faction especially since they got along well.
Palpatine and Tarkin vs Thrawn and Vader plus whatever conventional assets and personnel save superweapons so no Death Stars or Eclipses or non-standard Force powers ie: no Force Storms and the like, or overpowered units ie: Hands, Royal Guards, Inquisitiors, secret apprentices and the like could go either way
As I recall, Vader flew a tie defender on a few occasions in the tie fighter game.
The Tarkin novel explains that The Emperor wanted the Death Star to be a hate sink, giving him the emotion to feed on but directing the hate away from him personally.
But with the Defender, I would love the X-Wing tabletop game had Vader in one, though I can’t imagine the point cost... lol
tie defender was a nightmare to reb force in few off cannon comic and given one to Darth Vader which I pity any fleet he run into.
I knew the Palatine and consequently the Empire were arrogant but ignoring both Thrawn and Vader what were they thinking
If they had done a distributed production line of multiple facilities or even got into mobile hyperspace capable factories for these ships it would have done so much better Redundancy has it's strengths, keeping multiple copies of the blueprints would have been a good idea.
Nice to see that the Defender made it into the new canon.
If the Empire had gone with a dispersed force rather than concentrated (as with the Death Star), then the Empire would have been extremely difficult to topple. What kept the Death Star project going was probably the fact that the Empire had already spent a great deal of time and resources on the project.
And if all else fails, you can HYPERSPACE RAM the nearest capital ship. According to Rian Johnson's star wars canon, hyperspace ramming is veeerrryyy effective!!!
And based on Return of the Jedi logic ramming into a Star Destroyer's bridge always works too!
@@Bryan-dr5qy Yes, because the ships actually collide... The lightspeed ramming literally wouldn't happen. They call it "jumping into hyperspace" for a reason... They literally skip into another dimension which acts as a sort of galactic highway. The ONLY reason that fuckfest of a scene happened is because Rian Johnson gives as many fucks about Star Wars as JJ about resolving mysteries he sets up.
@@sebastianb.3978
"Traveling through hyperspace ain't like dusting crops, boy! Without precise calculations we could fly right through a star or bounce too close to a supernova and that'd end your trip real quick, wouldn't it?"
Bryan 8108 What is that supposed to tell me? It basically confirms what I said; that the JUMP through hyperspace sees a ship jumping from one place in the galaxy to another by travelling through a hyperdimension. If that quote was supposed to shut me up, conqratulations, it did the opposite.
I have wanted to see this since I saw the Tie Defender in rebels
If only Palpatine had listened to Vader and Thrawn on the matter, the Empire surely would’ve won.
Vader views Thrawn the way G Ramsay tastes ACTUALLY good food. “Bloody brilliant, AH, god, it’s amazing”