One other issue with the hyper focus on immersion is that it and realism is that it can EASILY make games blend together for me, like all the generic military shooters you’ve mentioned (granted I’m biased because I hate the COD and Counter Strike style of gameplay). Some examples of how less realistic mechanics can still be immersive are Lies Beneaths reload mechanics, and the combat of Broken Edge and until you fall. That being said, while I don’t mind simplified motion controls, this can still be a problem also. Like Hitman 3 using a reticle to throw items instead of actually throwing them, and any VR game that has to be controlled through a regular controller or mouse and keyboard. Edit:cheese
That's the best way I've ever heard it put, the push for realism in games makes every game feel way too similar and results in a loss of identity. I think the reason I like vertigo so much is because it has a setting and scenarios that other games don't. If I can't look at a screenshot of a game and immediately be able to tell it apart from another, it doesn't have a strong identity. Like how call of duty is giving us the same game 2 years in a row with MW2 and 3 and oh god what has gaming become Thank you for watching all the way!
12 months ago no VR headsett, got Pico 4 , discovered Vrchat on SteamVR and fast forward 7 months 3200usd poorer, But slimeVR 14 point FBT (yes max, and have 11 extra), 4090 GPU, 5800x3D CPU, record a lot and now we can move around naturaly (landed on 12 slimes everynight) and c every Very poor avatar (please be poor or better......) Dance 2-4 hours 5/7 days a week, never been in this good shape ever b4
To be honest It’s enjoyable for what it is and Aexlab made a lot of objectively good decisions besides the nft and social vr stuff, the market is simply unforgiving
CHEESE! Again, another awesome video. I like your take on the games' statistics and what seems successful and what seems to have it's hurdles on making the immersive experience more, well, immersive. In my opinion, I think people want to play games "conveniently" as opposed to putting the work into figuring out a new skill, but I also think that the VR configurations (hand held controllers vs finger tracking, and the whole FBT thing depending on your setup and how it is used in some games) still needs to evolve, becoming more dependable and consistent. Going from simply clicking with a mouse (sorry, old school PC gamer of over 30 years) to gesticulating with controllers results in a fairly high level of skill building that the casual gamer may not want to undertake. Thought provoking stuff, as always. Thanks!
THANK YOU FOR WATCHING! As much as I'd love to hop on a bandwagon and make fun of casual gamers, they are the ones that keep the industry afloat in terms of finances. The reason why we keep getting battle passes and that sort of scummery is because it sells. Hopefully VR can find it's footing by offering more casual experiences or by just adding in the bare minimum seated VR experience with a regular controller or mouse and keyboard, it would at least give people more of a reason to try VR and peak their interest.
The love with VRchat is u can enter via desktop, and as he shows in statistics, ppl overlook "cross VR/noVR pc games" I have so many friends that started on dekstop and now full on FBT xD So Vrcht is a gateway. Myself went in on dekstop while my pico 4 was on its way in the mail. Easier and cheaper FBT is wahts needed and the masses will come ^^
really coming into your own editing wise and your thumbnails are only getting better, keep it up man only a matter of time before you get ur first viral vid
I think people jump too quickly to hate your opinion about immersion. You have a good point. At the end of the day, despite VR capabilities to be a great simulator and simulate as close as possible real life stuff like racing, sim-flight, and guns, VR Sim and VR Games are quite two different things. When someone jumps into a game, whether its flatscreen game or vr, what they want is simple. Entertainment. And complex mechanics that try to simulate real-life can end up turning players away due to the complexities. Not all players are hardcore. Some good examples to compare it with is how nintendo dumbed down their Mario controls once they jump from 2D platforming to 3D to compensate for 3D movement and how much freedom you get from it to make the game less frustrating. And at the other end is how Megaman 11 has insanely precise controls and platforming that creates sudden difficulty spikes that frustrates players. In VR, I think a good balance is needed between the "Immersion" aspect for the simulator-hardcore driven players and the more "gaming" side of it. It's a new platform, so it makes sense that devs mostly don't really know what's best for it. But I think it'll be great if they learn a thing or two from our much older, much more experienced, flatscreen games industry.
Also, I kinda get the idea to write this opinion from videogamedunkey's "difficulty in videogames". It's funny how the VR Game industry ends up getting too obsessed with the term "Immersion" much like how the flatscreen games get too obsessed with "graphics" instead of gameplay. An example of a well-balanced game with simple controls, and yet deep and complex gameplay underneath it that's both satisfying and easy to learn is Superhot VR. And guess how they do that? Superhot VR *STARTS* as a flatscreen game. It's a 2016 game and yet it's one of the most well made VR Games ever and still today my go-to when introducing VR to people. I think you get my point, sorry for the long rant.
Super hot has such a special place in my heart. It was one of the only games that would run on my first computer without being unplayable. I still play super hot vr and the newest one on steam, way way too much fun. I think there is a market for super realistic vr games, I just don’t think the market is big enough to be sustainable long term. Besides all of the NFT stuff, Vail did a lot of things objectively right, but the market is unforgiving. There really are a lot of lessons to be learned from the past decades of flatscreen development. I think even just a seated vr mode for a lot of games would be a huge leap in adoption and support. I always always appreciate people leaving their thoughts like this! Gimme more!
@@BonelessVR "a township tale" has a seated accessibility option which gets called out early and often in both the tutorial, tool tips, and settings, so as to ensure playability for a wider range of plebs, however it also sort of assumes a multiplayer approach to the game, and feels as if single player gameplay was a rushed adaptation at the last second (single player isn't bad, it just doesn't hit it's full potential without a group of idiots to mess around with).
I thinks you're right about the fact that vr games need to let go of immersion a bit, cause the things that could make vr unique is not going for immersion and remaking reality but giving unique perspective and experience from what possible in reality, like for me one of my favorite moment in vr was trying lone echo and echo vr for the first time and moving in zero-g, like moving like that give a unique feeling i would hardly found a equivalent in flat-screen and yet it wasn't trying to emulate reality but moving that way felt special and more of a reason to use vr than so many game where most of the action where trying to be a carbon copy of real life equivalent, sure it wasn't letting immersion totaly out of it but it wasn't the principal thing they were going for, giving a unique experience was the priority
@@nemesis4081 Shoot I still mess around in google earth VR. I miss a lot of the weird stuff, either it isn't being made anymore or I'm woefully unaware of it.
I'm coming across a ton of small youtubers as of- cheese... sorry, as of recently. And you, my good sir, have some of the best production value especially for what people would expect of somebody under 10k subs. Keep taking it seriously my dude. Wish I had that kind of dedication.
TH-cam is slowly getting comfortable with me, I’ll always do my best to improve quality! I like making things that I can be proud of, thank you for the support. Comments like yours help me keep going! In a healthy way ofc I make this stuff because I love it haha
How haven't I found you earlier you are one of the best if not the best vrchat content creator for me. Keep it up I think you deserve way more publicity than any of the big ones like thrillseeker
Working on it! TH-cam's algorithm is starting to like me a little more haha, Thrill and Phia actually watch! You might find them in the comments section from time to time! Going to do my best to keep the good stuff coming, got a really wild headset comparison on the way with everything from a quest 2 to a Varjo Aero discussing where VR hardware is at right now. The Aero just got delivered a couple days ago, thing is absolutely insane haha
Showed up as a new viewer to the channel, and I really appreciate hearing opinions about VR that sound realistic rather than hopeful. The VR community is a super hyped up community, constantly wanting more. But I don't think any of them really look at the situation they're given and think for a second. PCVR is kinda dead, quest 2 is fading away both on the active player side and hardware side of things, and games that don't focus on "realism" are criticized and don't sell. This video was definitely a good refresher compared to all the other big name VR channels out there.
Almost made me tear up, legit. It's exactly what I aim for. It's weird how many people and creators in the VR space gaslight each other into a false narrative of a big triumphant return to the index release days rather than looking at it from an outsiders perspective and seeing the reality of it all. The numbers are there, it's up to hardware and software devs to be aware and make the changes, otherwise VRChat, rec room, and roblox are going to be carrying VR and eventually it'll gain even more of a stigma for being childs play haha To be clear I don't have a problem with kids in VR, they are hilarious, I just think it's irresponsible of parents. Imagine those og MW2 lobbies but face to face, that's what parents are subjecting their kids to when they let them play VRChat You know what VR could really use right now? Why not another realistic tactical fps surely that'll help I kinda ranted and joked for a bit but really I appreciate your comment, showing a realistic perspective on VR and pointing out it's legitimate flaws is really important to me, otherwise people are going to buy into it with unrealistic expectations and be very disappointed
Just found the channel and binge watched almost every video while chilling and playing battlebit, pleeeasssee keep making this type of content i love it!
God dang I love battlebit! Always going to keep making videos! Got some really neat stuff in the works for the channel but In preparation for it I'm working with the local universities VR lab, got a couple of neat headsets to talk about, might be a bit before the next video but quality will always take precedent over quantity, thank you for watching homie!
I'm hoping to make a VR game some day, and you're pointing out a lot of the pitfalls I think I'd have fallen into otherwise! I should focus more on the fun element, rather than how immersive the game feels. Your editing and pacing are incredible by the way! This has gotta be one of the most underrated and creative VR channels out there. It's been a while since I've turned on notifications for someone with less than 2k subs lmao
It would be sweet to put together a game! Have always thought about it, but to be honest I would probably hire somebody to make a VRChat world so that people can use their avatars and the hardware that they already have! I'm really committed to making stuff that I'm proud of putting out there and always looking for ways to improve, comments like yours make it all worth it :)
Honestly, I love more “realistic” vr games. The more I can interact with the game world and its physics, the more I enjoy it. Imo, it’s better because you actually have to be good at what you’re doing. Especially in PvP games, it really is a battle of skills and knowledge. It’s not just a button press, you actually have to do something, you gotta be faster, more accurate, and understand the world and its physics. Now, that being said, I have absolutely no issues with more simple games. I just like being the protagonist/player character and my body being the controller. Like the difference between playing Half-Life 2 on flat screen and VR is a world of difference. It’s phenomenal either way, but being able to embody Gordon and take advantage of the physics opens up so many new possibilities. Same for Doom 3, the Quake titles, RE, Gmod as a whole.
Going through Half Life 2 VR right now! My point with this video is that VR needs a more casual player base before we can focus so hard on the competitive side, can't build a pyramid upside down you know :) I really appreciate you leaving a comment talking about your feelings on it, it helps me understand the community better so I can voice all of our concerns rather than just my own!
I really appreciate the support amigo! Got more stuff coming, hope to keep pushing myself and bringing a substantial quality jump in each video. Comments like yours are exactly what I aim for
Have been enjoying your videos! Problem is I often watch them on my work computer and cant sign in to TH-cam or give you a like and then forget to come back on my own PC to drop the like! Really enjoy your format. :3 Cheeeeeese!
I really appreciate it! You're going so far as to watch my videos twice ahah, I'm glad they are something you choose to watch at work, makes me feel comfortable haha
I always find myself gravitating towards games that allow me to sit, or better yet, lay down like- vrchat. I want to relax after work and other life stuff, and to me thats the true killer for most games. During the weekends I sometimes hop in to the more active games. Cool video!
Remember when the wii came out and everyone realized you could play the games sitting down so we all did that instead? Motion controls are just annoying haha, let me chill and relax, that’s why most of us play games
first of all, cheese, Second of all totally agree, I recently played Zone of the Enders on steam, a flat-screen game with VR support and WOW, I've been out of VR for a while due to the low quantity of titles, i saw the game had vr support and said "why not", honestly the best decision i made all year, also regarding the barriers of entry i'm the kind of guy that can tell you all the ak variants with a glance so it's not a problem for me, but I'm well aware im the exception not the norm and people should be able to enjoy VR without having to know all these things
I've had a lot of people disagree with me on the seated VR experience but I think there's a ton of value in it and can act as more of a bridge to full vr use. There's a lot of things I miss about the early days but one of the biggest things is games just games having VR support, even if it's barebones 6 dof. Side note I can't identify AK variants worth a damn haha, all I know is how to use them to take down corporate America
AYE thank you for watching! The algorithm is slowly getting more comfortable with me, super excited to see where it’ll go and I thank you for joining me!
Love your content and love your call out to to the majority of other VR „content creators“ on the platform. I‘m not hear to listen to a damn sales man in my spare time. On the topic, I think realistic reloading of weapons is awesome, but it‘s also really hard - especially in the heat of the moment. I like the system from Pavlov where you CAN reload by your self and be faster if you are very well trained. If you don‘t want to torture yourself you can als auto reload, but it might be slower then manual for a trained player.
I think the playerbase looks so scarce because even if you like the game, it's VR so you won't play it if you don't have a day off and quite a lot of energy. Most games are made to act like your second jobs nowadays so maybe it's not a good comparison... or maybe I'm just coping idk.
'Most games are made to act like your second job" HIT THE NAIL RIGHT ON THE HEAD. THIS IS THE PROBLEM WITH AAA GAMING. They literally expect us to pay to grind lmao, and the worst part is that people bite! And that's one of the most human truths about VR, we seek comfort, so if something is uncomfortable or requires a lot of energy to get into, we are less likely to do it. Excited to see if Bigscreen's Beyond changes that narrative at all. The lighter and more reliable headsets become, the better in my eyes!
IT'S YOU! Welcome to the discord and I really appreciate you watching all the way! I understand some peoples gripes with my take, but I really think in order for VR to survive the casual community needs to come first, can't have the hardcore realism experiences without an audience
Great video by the cheese! And your 100% right we need more flat games to have VR modes like Forza for exemple.... I was hype disappointed that the new one does not have VR support dispite it being so common.
Cheese The main thing that made me leave VR for a bit was the constant crashing on a rift s which often times would require you to restart the game steam vr and oculus which also meant if you had owo track ypu would have to set that all up again (and yes rift s users still exist)
Thank you for watching! Oh lord does VR have some software hiccups to fix before it really goes mainstream. My Pro 2 has given my constant issues, one of them was a result of rgb software on my pc lmao. I don't think it's okay to expect the average consumer to be able to hunt down and fix these problems when the price of PCVR is so high already
Thanks for this video, finally something fresh and more objective in our community. I've also fallen into a trap of overhyping VR, but it's refreshing to take a step back. Especially since I got to really try VR for the first time like a month ago or so. I'm not yet saturated with my own experiences, mostly the stuff I've been watching on youtube for the past few years 💀 Cheese.
VRchat is the gateway for me,I have played it once when I still got a really weak PC(dual cores CPU and a 1050 I don’t even know how it works 😅) I haven’t tried it on my new PC because I was into APEX LEGENDS , GTAV and other stuff after I got it. when I reboot this game like 5years later? Everything changed a lot (aside from the better FPS because BACK THEN IT WAS CRASHING A LOT AND 20 FPS pretty much UNPLAYABLE The UI and stuff made me very confused me at first,But with the better PC I can finally explore around the VRC community I found it interesting and fun so I started to like you’ve said in this video “hmm how would it looks like in VR” so I did I bought a used CV1 in good condition (I don’t get a new one cuz I don’t know if I will get sick of it or not,And I’m ok with second hand stuff) And I can say that was an incredible experience,everything is in 3D and can move my hand around etc.. it feels super cool and weird at the same time haha Comes from the FBT video, I loves the way you edited These are some very interesting topics for me(New to VR And the way you organized these topic is nice where I don’t even know I’ve watched for an hour 😂 Hope you get viral soon ! Subbed❤
Just watched through a few of the videos on your channel and though a kind comment was in order. I like the style you use and the videos I watched were enjoyable. Earned a sub from me, keep it up :)
Aye thank you for watching! I try my best not to be a debbie downer and offer possible solutions to things, I'm really glad that you enjoyed the video and I plan to keep it coming!
I've got you for sure! Got some pretty neat stuff on the way including a Varjo Aero and an entire range of headsets to talk about, really want to discuss where VR hardware is at, I've talked a lot about software so far, now it's time to talk about hardware :) Thank you for watching!
That was fun to make haha, I had to try it so many times because I kept catching myself as I was about to fall on my bed. Thank you for watching all the way and enjoying!
Damn, I think I fell into the pipeline of your videos. The quality is very good, I liked that joke about attention spans in particular and I guess it's better to stare at an anime avatar even if it's a dude.
Hard to argue with anime girl aesthetics haha, I always think to myself if someone is bothered by my character being a female maybe I don't want them here in the first place. I'll keep pushing the quality up as much as possible, it's really a joy to know that people enjoy the videos this much!
Steam stats show nothing.. Breachers servers are full on standalone for half a year now. But in general all recent games are just downhill race except a very few cases.. somehow old Half Life 2 not even plays but looks better in VR as many more old game ports are better optimized and look better than many latest Quest 2 games.
It’s a shame that Meta hides usage statistics. The only thing I have to go off of from them is that even they aren’t confident in their retention of users and that there’s a rather large but undefined portion of Quest 2’s out there that are collecting dust. Average vr session times are down to 20 minutes, 30% of people who own headsets haven’t bought a game for it in the past 2 years, numbers just aren’t looking good across the board. I think it’s time for a switch up. Also HL2 VR is nuts and I can’t wait to play more of it! I appreciate you watching and leaving your thoughts!
@@BonelessVR 20 min is exactly how long you can bare Quest 2 abomination on a face. :D So maybe we should have a consumer VR headset before even trying to sell any games. Sony, Valve and everyone else can't even sell headsets, in the first place. And Quest 2 is like a disposable with 99% current disposable VR demos for it. So we need first 'VR platform' before even counting games for it. And many companies haven't even released their 1st gen headsets yet.
We engage in a mild amount of C H E E S E You really gonna come along and make me think about how good things, specifically software, could be if technically smart people weren’t so people dumb? My day is ruined and my disappointment is measured in hours on vrc. (Screams in why doesn’t the Wi-Fi button on iPhones turn off the Wi-Fi but put it in a stupid mode that achieves none of my goals) Seriously though, never thought about the immersion vs fun thing though. Good brain food thank you.
AYE thank you for watching! There's just so many oversights with software. I can't blame dev's entirely though, players do some weird stuff and VR makes them have all these new behaviors that devs have to learn how to design around. Always going to keep it real here haha
One thing that has always been frustrating is going to aim a long gun and the controller nearest your headset starts to jitter. It’s always happened to me in games and I had to completely change how I aimed guns in order to be accurate haha Thank you for watching all the way!!
Why we complain about a VR shooter not using VR to he fullest is well why make a VR shooter? I got my Rift CV1 new to reload my own virtal guns like my airsoft guns and gain marksmenship on the range and beyond... That is the dream of so many FPS players... Which like I said if you are going to have no motion/VR controls why not make a flat screen FPS and if you want the expernice why not make a VR video? Why does VTOL VR have no official flat mode or conjrtoler support? It would sell so much more as the only Gen 4+++/5/6 combat sim... but it is the most immersive Flight sim in VR even beyond DCS despite MSFS having the best plug and play support of any VR game I've tried... So I do get you but like the only time for instance I get in VR chat in VR is to walk around my favoite Video game locations for exerscise most of the time I just play flat as I'm still immersed that way. So yeah what makes VR gaming speical right now is it's many fine crafted niches and we would lose that if we whent back to the Rift DV1 days where all their were was flat games bearly modded to VR.
Always! Thank you for the support! Getting some mildly heated comments on the newest vid mostly from people who have stockholm syndrome. Thank you for brightening my day
Immersion is not inherently about realism; consistency is far more important to stay immersed in a game, whether flat or VR. Developing new game mechanics and for new platforms is difficult, time consuming and risky, so I understand why most studios haven't made VR games or haven't adapted mechanics well for the medium. Ironically VR is new to most game devs at this point so they are trying to figure out its strengths while developing for it and don't have decades of game design precedent to build off of. Realism without intent seems to make VR games feel more buggy and less polished. I thoroughly enjoyed my time with Boneworks; it was the game that made me realize the potential of VR, but it had too much jank. I hated its sequel Bonelab; it felt like the developers were soyfacing over their own game but the mechanics were still broken and the level design wasn't fun. The only two games I've played that handle complex physics interactions consistently are Half-Life: Alyx and Tears of the Kingdom; as cool as physics in games are I think it would be better for current VR game designers to generally stay away from more complex implementations until they can be more reliable. I think VR design standards should emphasize immersion in terms of being engaging rather than being "realistic". The former is so much easier to pull off than the latter and leads to games that are ultimately more enjoyable. I'd hesitate to call VR "mainstream" yet, but accessibility-wise being able to buy just one $300 device instead of spending at least an extra $1,000 for a PC (and then jumping through even more hoops to setup) helps drive adoption. The Quest is the moneymaker going forward, so its much higher statistics are missed by exclusively talking about Steam's VR stats: www.roadtovr.com/quest-2-apps-revenue-store-connect-2022. Just something to mention at least, despite Meta hiding usage statistics and their purported retention not being great. It would be really nice to see fewer kids and more adults/"gamers" on the platform though... Nice editing btw. Oh and uh, cheese!
Thank you for watching and especially for the thoughtful comment! I really wish that I could’ve used the Quests player counts, but the situation is so dire on PCVR, what I would consider the most dedicated audience, that I have to assume it isn’t much better on the quest side of things. Certainly better, but 7 people on zenith on pc likely doesn’t mean 700 on standalone. There was a previous comment that explained it really well: ‘realism just makes games blend into each other in my head’ I was talking to a friend last night about it all and honestly with the amount of features that VRChat makes accessible to devs, it made us wonder why they don’t hire devs to create full fledged games in VRChat that would be accessible through VRChat plus. The games would be hosted on special instances optimized for low latency, they could be played with all of your friends who already use vrchat and have VRC plus, you can use the avatars that you already love. I really dislike subscription services but honestly that would make Vrc plus worth it for me, at least much better value than a profile pic, emojis, and groups. It sounds like a pipe dream but the more you think about it the more it makes sense. It could as simple as an idle game in your menu all the way to a Vrchat exclusive MMO. There’s already desktop support as well, and of course the massive install base. What would you think about that as a player and what issues am I missing with that proposition? About Vr being mainstream, it sucks that it’s best opportunity so far to become mainstream was wrapped in Zuckerberg talking about living and working in VR, I feel like it rubbed the public the wrong way, the NFT craze and all of its scams and controversies were the cherry on top. It’s awesome that the price has dropped so steeply and I really hope the Quest 3 ushers in VRs next adoption phase. I think it would be pretty cool to be hanging with friends, all agree to go do some quests together or do some combat missions, earn some badges to show on our accounts, then go back to chilling all in the same play session with the only interruption being a couple of load screens. I know things like this already exist on a smaller scale in VRchat, but it would be awesome to see it adopted in a more official capacity and utilizing all of the features we already have but are underutilized like profile badges.
@@BonelessVR The biggest reason I assume VRC doesn't hire devs to make games is the cost, plus the lackluster return on investment. If it were to succeed, what would VRC get, more VRC+ subscriptions from people who didn't already have them? When there are already devs who will make games for free (or be funded through their own Patreons) I doubt VRC would want to spend money on developing flagship games for the platform as opposed to developing more features for it or maintaining it. Two large barriers to bigger games being developed on VRC are lack of world persistence (essentially save data, a feature that was promised in April 2021) and transferring that data to other worlds (since each world can only consist of a single Unity scene). Even with all you can do in VRChat worlds, there are still plenty of limits compared to a standalone game which gives a dev more freedom, less headache and typically more money/better ROI. That and because VRC isn't really trying to make an effort to promote the game to people who haven't already tried it. It has spread mostly by word of mouth since its inception. Even if they did more outreach in that way it would surprise me if they actually funded projects like that. I mean, they've gotten away with all this free labor up to this point. They've even encouraged it with their world jams, some of which were game-themed. Why pay for what you can get for free? TL;DR VRC corporate is weird and idk if they even have a vision. The technology is potentially revolutionary, but the current implementation is cringe.
@@iconoclass Love it. You make some really really good points about the backend that didn't cross my mind. I love the TLDR especially haha, it really does seem like they lack direction. I am very curious what this will all look like in a few years, given that the new wave of headsets including valves own are looking to be substantial upgrades over current hardware. I doubt anything will catch traction quite like the Quest 2 did unless Valve launches another killer title in conjunction with their new hardware.
@@BonelessVR I figure there will probably have to be some unpredictable concurrence of events that simultaneously drive not only VR adoption but also retention; it's not going to come from solely from new headset launches. VR enthusiasts have been complaining about content droughts for years but as you point out (2:04) there are plenty of reasons why devs don't want to pour significant resources into VR. That combined with Unity's pricing debacle spells more doom for VR content short term. Long term one could be optimistic that better VR support will come to other engines but only time will tell.
Some brand new vr headsets can be found for 200 or less, not even mentioning the used market. Really good deal, I think money is not the issue when people pay 1500 or 2000+ for a new pc
@@B4nan0n "without mentioning used market", for 200 u would've only been able to get a meta quest 2 on the meta website(they are now sold out), which is overall not a good headset and isn't really worth getting even for 200. And now, how does a pc compare to a vr headset? U do realise that a computer is a multifunctional tool, while a vr headset, especially a cheaper one, is mostly just for entertainment. And if u want to play pcvr (ON STATS OF WHICH THIS VIDEO IS BASED ON), you need to ALREADY OWN somewhat of A powerful PC.
I've actually got a video on mutes in the works! Really want to make sure it's quality though, I think I've gone through 3 or 4 different rewrites on the script and editing notes. That'll be out eventually, promise!
"I'm playing VR to escape reality. Why would I want to replicate it" is just so funny to me
All of the possibilities and we have how many tactical fps games haha
It's true.
Lol
One other issue with the hyper focus on immersion is that it and realism is that it can EASILY make games blend together for me, like all the generic military shooters you’ve mentioned (granted I’m biased because I hate the COD and Counter Strike style of gameplay). Some examples of how less realistic mechanics can still be immersive are Lies Beneaths reload mechanics, and the combat of Broken Edge and until you fall. That being said, while I don’t mind simplified motion controls, this can still be a problem also. Like Hitman 3 using a reticle to throw items instead of actually throwing them, and any VR game that has to be controlled through a regular controller or mouse and keyboard.
Edit:cheese
That's the best way I've ever heard it put, the push for realism in games makes every game feel way too similar and results in a loss of identity. I think the reason I like vertigo so much is because it has a setting and scenarios that other games don't. If I can't look at a screenshot of a game and immediately be able to tell it apart from another, it doesn't have a strong identity. Like how call of duty is giving us the same game 2 years in a row with MW2 and 3 and oh god what has gaming become
Thank you for watching all the way!
1:41 caught me off guard lmaoo, genius!
The honest criticism of VR is appreciated 🙏🏻 it’s definitely got a ways to go before developers learn how to optimize it
12 months ago no VR headsett, got Pico 4 , discovered Vrchat on SteamVR and fast forward 7 months 3200usd poorer, But slimeVR 14 point FBT (yes max, and have 11 extra), 4090 GPU, 5800x3D CPU, record a lot and now we can move around naturaly (landed on 12 slimes everynight) and c every Very poor avatar (please be poor or better......) Dance 2-4 hours 5/7 days a week, never been in this good shape ever b4
I am quite sad about VAIL, it was a lot of fun and had promise.
To be honest It’s enjoyable for what it is and Aexlab made a lot of objectively good decisions besides the nft and social vr stuff, the market is simply unforgiving
CHEESE! Again, another awesome video. I like your take on the games' statistics and what seems successful and what seems to have it's hurdles on making the immersive experience more, well, immersive. In my opinion, I think people want to play games "conveniently" as opposed to putting the work into figuring out a new skill, but I also think that the VR configurations (hand held controllers vs finger tracking, and the whole FBT thing depending on your setup and how it is used in some games) still needs to evolve, becoming more dependable and consistent. Going from simply clicking with a mouse (sorry, old school PC gamer of over 30 years) to gesticulating with controllers results in a fairly high level of skill building that the casual gamer may not want to undertake. Thought provoking stuff, as always. Thanks!
THANK YOU FOR WATCHING!
As much as I'd love to hop on a bandwagon and make fun of casual gamers, they are the ones that keep the industry afloat in terms of finances. The reason why we keep getting battle passes and that sort of scummery is because it sells. Hopefully VR can find it's footing by offering more casual experiences or by just adding in the bare minimum seated VR experience with a regular controller or mouse and keyboard, it would at least give people more of a reason to try VR and peak their interest.
The love with VRchat is u can enter via desktop, and as he shows in statistics, ppl overlook "cross VR/noVR pc games" I have so many friends that started on dekstop and now full on FBT xD So Vrcht is a gateway. Myself went in on dekstop while my pico 4 was on its way in the mail. Easier and cheaper FBT is wahts needed and the masses will come ^^
really coming into your own editing wise and your thumbnails are only getting better, keep it up man only a matter of time before you get ur first viral vid
I appreciate it! I hope to keep increasing the level of professionalism and continue growing the channel!
I think people jump too quickly to hate your opinion about immersion. You have a good point. At the end of the day, despite VR capabilities to be a great simulator and simulate as close as possible real life stuff like racing, sim-flight, and guns, VR Sim and VR Games are quite two different things.
When someone jumps into a game, whether its flatscreen game or vr, what they want is simple. Entertainment. And complex mechanics that try to simulate real-life can end up turning players away due to the complexities. Not all players are hardcore.
Some good examples to compare it with is how nintendo dumbed down their Mario controls once they jump from 2D platforming to 3D to compensate for 3D movement and how much freedom you get from it to make the game less frustrating. And at the other end is how Megaman 11 has insanely precise controls and platforming that creates sudden difficulty spikes that frustrates players.
In VR, I think a good balance is needed between the "Immersion" aspect for the simulator-hardcore driven players and the more "gaming" side of it. It's a new platform, so it makes sense that devs mostly don't really know what's best for it. But I think it'll be great if they learn a thing or two from our much older, much more experienced, flatscreen games industry.
Also, I kinda get the idea to write this opinion from videogamedunkey's "difficulty in videogames".
It's funny how the VR Game industry ends up getting too obsessed with the term "Immersion" much like how the flatscreen games get too obsessed with "graphics" instead of gameplay.
An example of a well-balanced game with simple controls, and yet deep and complex gameplay underneath it that's both satisfying and easy to learn is Superhot VR. And guess how they do that? Superhot VR *STARTS* as a flatscreen game. It's a 2016 game and yet it's one of the most well made VR Games ever and still today my go-to when introducing VR to people. I think you get my point, sorry for the long rant.
Super hot has such a special place in my heart. It was one of the only games that would run on my first computer without being unplayable. I still play super hot vr and the newest one on steam, way way too much fun.
I think there is a market for super realistic vr games, I just don’t think the market is big enough to be sustainable long term. Besides all of the NFT stuff, Vail did a lot of things objectively right, but the market is unforgiving. There really are a lot of lessons to be learned from the past decades of flatscreen development. I think even just a seated vr mode for a lot of games would be a huge leap in adoption and support.
I always always appreciate people leaving their thoughts like this! Gimme more!
@@BonelessVR "a township tale" has a seated accessibility option which gets called out early and often in both the tutorial, tool tips, and settings, so as to ensure playability for a wider range of plebs, however it also sort of assumes a multiplayer approach to the game, and feels as if single player gameplay was a rushed adaptation at the last second (single player isn't bad, it just doesn't hit it's full potential without a group of idiots to mess around with).
I thinks you're right about the fact that vr games need to let go of immersion a bit, cause the things that could make vr unique is not going for immersion and remaking reality but giving unique perspective and experience from what possible in reality, like for me one of my favorite moment in vr was trying lone echo and echo vr for the first time and moving in zero-g, like moving like that give a unique feeling i would hardly found a equivalent in flat-screen and yet it wasn't trying to emulate reality but moving that way felt special and more of a reason to use vr than so many game where most of the action where trying to be a carbon copy of real life equivalent, sure it wasn't letting immersion totaly out of it but it wasn't the principal thing they were going for, giving a unique experience was the priority
@@nemesis4081 Shoot I still mess around in google earth VR. I miss a lot of the weird stuff, either it isn't being made anymore or I'm woefully unaware of it.
I'm coming across a ton of small youtubers as of- cheese... sorry, as of recently. And you, my good sir, have some of the best production value especially for what people would expect of somebody under 10k subs. Keep taking it seriously my dude. Wish I had that kind of dedication.
TH-cam is slowly getting comfortable with me, I’ll always do my best to improve quality! I like making things that I can be proud of, thank you for the support. Comments like yours help me keep going! In a healthy way ofc I make this stuff because I love it haha
Thanks for the reply! Just don't stress yourself out feeling like you have to reply to everybody. Keep up the great work
How haven't I found you earlier you are one of the best if not the best vrchat content creator for me. Keep it up I think you deserve way more publicity than any of the big ones like thrillseeker
Working on it! TH-cam's algorithm is starting to like me a little more haha, Thrill and Phia actually watch! You might find them in the comments section from time to time! Going to do my best to keep the good stuff coming, got a really wild headset comparison on the way with everything from a quest 2 to a Varjo Aero discussing where VR hardware is at right now. The Aero just got delivered a couple days ago, thing is absolutely insane haha
Showed up as a new viewer to the channel, and I really appreciate hearing opinions about VR that sound realistic rather than hopeful. The VR community is a super hyped up community, constantly wanting more. But I don't think any of them really look at the situation they're given and think for a second. PCVR is kinda dead, quest 2 is fading away both on the active player side and hardware side of things, and games that don't focus on "realism" are criticized and don't sell. This video was definitely a good refresher compared to all the other big name VR channels out there.
Almost made me tear up, legit. It's exactly what I aim for. It's weird how many people and creators in the VR space gaslight each other into a false narrative of a big triumphant return to the index release days rather than looking at it from an outsiders perspective and seeing the reality of it all. The numbers are there, it's up to hardware and software devs to be aware and make the changes, otherwise VRChat, rec room, and roblox are going to be carrying VR and eventually it'll gain even more of a stigma for being childs play haha
To be clear I don't have a problem with kids in VR, they are hilarious, I just think it's irresponsible of parents. Imagine those og MW2 lobbies but face to face, that's what parents are subjecting their kids to when they let them play VRChat
You know what VR could really use right now? Why not another realistic tactical fps surely that'll help
I kinda ranted and joked for a bit but really I appreciate your comment, showing a realistic perspective on VR and pointing out it's legitimate flaws is really important to me, otherwise people are going to buy into it with unrealistic expectations and be very disappointed
Just found the channel and binge watched almost every video while chilling and playing battlebit, pleeeasssee keep making this type of content i love it!
God dang I love battlebit! Always going to keep making videos! Got some really neat stuff in the works for the channel but In preparation for it I'm working with the local universities VR lab, got a couple of neat headsets to talk about, might be a bit before the next video but quality will always take precedent over quantity, thank you for watching homie!
Ngl, I think this was your best video yet
Hi gravel
I'm hoping to make a VR game some day, and you're pointing out a lot of the pitfalls I think I'd have fallen into otherwise! I should focus more on the fun element, rather than how immersive the game feels.
Your editing and pacing are incredible by the way! This has gotta be one of the most underrated and creative VR channels out there. It's been a while since I've turned on notifications for someone with less than 2k subs lmao
It would be sweet to put together a game! Have always thought about it, but to be honest I would probably hire somebody to make a VRChat world so that people can use their avatars and the hardware that they already have!
I'm really committed to making stuff that I'm proud of putting out there and always looking for ways to improve, comments like yours make it all worth it :)
cheese?
Honestly, I love more “realistic” vr games. The more I can interact with the game world and its physics, the more I enjoy it. Imo, it’s better because you actually have to be good at what you’re doing. Especially in PvP games, it really is a battle of skills and knowledge. It’s not just a button press, you actually have to do something, you gotta be faster, more accurate, and understand the world and its physics. Now, that being said, I have absolutely no issues with more simple games. I just like being the protagonist/player character and my body being the controller. Like the difference between playing Half-Life 2 on flat screen and VR is a world of difference. It’s phenomenal either way, but being able to embody Gordon and take advantage of the physics opens up so many new possibilities. Same for Doom 3, the Quake titles, RE, Gmod as a whole.
Going through Half Life 2 VR right now! My point with this video is that VR needs a more casual player base before we can focus so hard on the competitive side, can't build a pyramid upside down you know :)
I really appreciate you leaving a comment talking about your feelings on it, it helps me understand the community better so I can voice all of our concerns rather than just my own!
just randomly showed up on my feed. just checked the views coz i was expecting you to be big but damm. keep up the high quality work x
I really appreciate the support amigo! Got more stuff coming, hope to keep pushing myself and bringing a substantial quality jump in each video. Comments like yours are exactly what I aim for
1:38 really caught me off guard ahaha
love your humour and insights. keep up the awesome work!
Valheim in VR is one of my favorite VR Games and the VR is a community mod.
Risk of Rain 2 VR is also pretty well done.
Going to give them a shot! Love Risk of Rain and Valheim is just plain fun!
Have been enjoying your videos! Problem is I often watch them on my work computer and cant sign in to TH-cam or give you a like and then forget to come back on my own PC to drop the like! Really enjoy your format. :3
Cheeeeeese!
I really appreciate it! You're going so far as to watch my videos twice ahah, I'm glad they are something you choose to watch at work, makes me feel comfortable haha
You are doing great! I am glad I found your videos and you deserve so many more views and subs! @@BonelessVR
Nice of you to call out the bs hype for every other vr title/update. Keep being real.
Cheeeeese
Always gonna keep it real, thank you for watching homie
Cheese and beans >w
I always find myself gravitating towards games that allow me to sit, or better yet, lay down like- vrchat. I want to relax after work and other life stuff, and to me thats the true killer for most games. During the weekends I sometimes hop in to the more active games. Cool video!
Remember when the wii came out and everyone realized you could play the games sitting down so we all did that instead? Motion controls are just annoying haha, let me chill and relax, that’s why most of us play games
first of all, cheese, Second of all totally agree, I recently played Zone of the Enders on steam, a flat-screen game with VR support and WOW, I've been out of VR for a while due to the low quantity of titles, i saw the game had vr support and said "why not", honestly the best decision i made all year, also regarding the barriers of entry i'm the kind of guy that can tell you all the ak variants with a glance so it's not a problem for me, but I'm well aware im the exception not the norm and people should be able to enjoy VR without having to know all these things
I've had a lot of people disagree with me on the seated VR experience but I think there's a ton of value in it and can act as more of a bridge to full vr use. There's a lot of things I miss about the early days but one of the biggest things is games just games having VR support, even if it's barebones 6 dof.
Side note I can't identify AK variants worth a damn haha, all I know is how to use them to take down corporate America
CHEESEEE! You are criminally underrated, Boneless. Keep doing what you're doing, man. I WILL BE WATCHING AND ENJOYING EVERY STEP OF THE WAY!
AYE thank you for watching! The algorithm is slowly getting more comfortable with me, super excited to see where it’ll go and I thank you for joining me!
@@BonelessVR YOU'VE GOT THIS! 😎
Literally binged all your vids. Stay awesome. :)
I love your videos! I'm really picky when it comes to VR TH-camrs, but you take the cake of a good TH-camr.
Always doing my best! I work very hard to improve and I'm happy that you enjoy where we are at right now!
I feel like immersion takes the soul out of vr.
Love your content and love your call out to to the majority of other VR „content creators“ on the platform. I‘m not hear to listen to a damn sales man in my spare time.
On the topic, I think realistic reloading of weapons is awesome, but it‘s also really hard - especially in the heat of the moment. I like the system from Pavlov where you CAN reload by your self and be faster if you are very well trained. If you don‘t want to torture yourself you can als auto reload, but it might be slower then manual for a trained player.
REAL!!
I love the love for halo maps here
its a crime that your channel doesnt have more subs
We are getting there, I want to say slowly but surely, but we are picking up pace pretty quickly. Thank you for the support!
I lov me some Cheese right now 🧀
AYO thank you for watching!
I think the playerbase looks so scarce because even if you like the game, it's VR so you won't play it if you don't have a day off and quite a lot of energy. Most games are made to act like your second jobs nowadays so maybe it's not a good comparison... or maybe I'm just coping idk.
'Most games are made to act like your second job"
HIT THE NAIL RIGHT ON THE HEAD. THIS IS THE PROBLEM WITH AAA GAMING.
They literally expect us to pay to grind lmao, and the worst part is that people bite!
And that's one of the most human truths about VR, we seek comfort, so if something is uncomfortable or requires a lot of energy to get into, we are less likely to do it. Excited to see if Bigscreen's Beyond changes that narrative at all. The lighter and more reliable headsets become, the better in my eyes!
Cheese
I have never been a fan of VR with full immersion with having to reload the gun by hand and such since it takes me a while and is a big pain.
IT'S YOU! Welcome to the discord and I really appreciate you watching all the way! I understand some peoples gripes with my take, but I really think in order for VR to survive the casual community needs to come first, can't have the hardcore realism experiences without an audience
@@BonelessVR I can highly agree with that
Great video by the cheese! And your 100% right we need more flat games to have VR modes like Forza for exemple.... I was hype disappointed that the new one does not have VR support dispite it being so common.
If any game should have VR mode it should be Forza lmao. Microsoft is just too far into hololens to try and invest in anything consumer, it sucks
Great video
Im really liking this kind of content great bullet points great video
Especially with the ADHD attention span jokes Cheeeeeese
Ahah thank you for watching! Makes me happy
Cheese
The main thing that made me leave VR for a bit was the constant crashing on a rift s which often times would require you to restart the game steam vr and oculus which also meant if you had owo track ypu would have to set that all up again (and yes rift s users still exist)
Thank you for watching!
Oh lord does VR have some software hiccups to fix before it really goes mainstream. My Pro 2 has given my constant issues, one of them was a result of rgb software on my pc lmao. I don't think it's okay to expect the average consumer to be able to hunt down and fix these problems when the price of PCVR is so high already
Thanks for this video, finally something fresh and more objective in our community. I've also fallen into a trap of overhyping VR, but it's refreshing to take a step back. Especially since I got to really try VR for the first time like a month ago or so. I'm not yet saturated with my own experiences, mostly the stuff I've been watching on youtube for the past few years 💀
Cheese.
VRchat is the gateway for me,I have played it once when I still got a really weak PC(dual cores CPU and a 1050 I don’t even know how it works 😅)
I haven’t tried it on my new PC because I was into APEX LEGENDS , GTAV and other stuff after I got it.
when I reboot this game like 5years later?
Everything changed a lot (aside from the better FPS because BACK THEN IT WAS CRASHING A LOT AND 20 FPS pretty much UNPLAYABLE
The UI and stuff made me very confused me at first,But with the better PC I can finally explore around the VRC community
I found it interesting and fun so I started to like you’ve said in this video “hmm how would it looks like in VR”
so I did I bought a used CV1 in good condition (I don’t get a new one cuz I don’t know if I will get sick of it or not,And I’m ok with second hand stuff)
And I can say that was an incredible experience,everything is in 3D and can move my hand around etc.. it feels super cool and weird at the same time haha
Comes from the FBT video, I loves the way you edited
These are some very interesting topics for me(New to VR
And the way you organized these topic is nice where I don’t even know I’ve watched for an hour 😂
Hope you get viral soon ! Subbed❤
Expect more soon! Got some really fun stuff in the works, going to keep it rolling!
section at 5:28 rekindeled my belief in yt vr creators ily ty
cheese ig
Just watched through a few of the videos on your channel and though a kind comment was in order. I like the style you use and the videos I watched were enjoyable. Earned a sub from me, keep it up :)
the subway surf gameplay is tickling my adhd and i LOVE IT
also, cheese, yw
Ahah thank you for watching! I'm glad you enjoyed!
Cheese!! This was a really fun video to watch and brought up points most people on VR chose to ignore
Aye thank you for watching! I try my best not to be a debbie downer and offer possible solutions to things, I'm really glad that you enjoyed the video and I plan to keep it coming!
Say cheese for the camera!
AYEEEE THANK YOU FOR WATCHING!
Cheese~
Keep the awesome content coming. I love it!
Oh. And, "cheese!".
I've got you for sure! Got some pretty neat stuff on the way including a Varjo Aero and an entire range of headsets to talk about, really want to discuss where VR hardware is at, I've talked a lot about software so far, now it's time to talk about hardware :) Thank you for watching!
Loved the entry cinematic. Cheese.
That was fun to make haha, I had to try it so many times because I kept catching myself as I was about to fall on my bed. Thank you for watching all the way and enjoying!
Honestly keep at it, in my view, you're as good as if not better than some of the big names. @@BonelessVR
bro thats a sick thumbnail
Subscribed💥 this was the first video that was recommended to me 👀
Aye thank you for watching the video and enjoying it enough to sub!
nice video and all but i think we all could agree that cheese
Thank you for watching, made me laugh haha
Cheese. Good stuff, keepin' it real. Hope your content continues to grow.
cheese
have a good day too pal
Thank you so much!
1:03
6:10
OMEGALUL
Why would I want to use a virtual reality headset if it isn’t like reality.
Damn, I think I fell into the pipeline of your videos. The quality is very good, I liked that joke about attention spans in particular and I guess it's better to stare at an anime avatar even if it's a dude.
Hard to argue with anime girl aesthetics haha, I always think to myself if someone is bothered by my character being a female maybe I don't want them here in the first place. I'll keep pushing the quality up as much as possible, it's really a joy to know that people enjoy the videos this much!
Cheese......... great video by the way, keep up the good work.
Aye thank you for watching!
very nicely done bro
cheezu
Thank you for watching amigo!
43,000 Hrs is insane
you lost me as soon as you removed the subway surfer gameplay
okay seriously tho , nice vid, i subbed
I appreciate it haha, I'll keep the memes coming, maybe in the next I'll just have subway surfers and bootleg flappy bird up the whole time
@@BonelessVR your video style is pretty on point, love it, i do have a question tho, what is your current VR setup?
Cheese! Sorry if you haven't seen me in VR Bone. Great vid tho! Got my full body finally and been doing other stuff in VR Chat.
WHADDUP TRIPP! Define other stuff for me, sounds a bit sus especially after you just got full body ;)
Cheese.
AYE THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR WATCHING!
cheese sauce
AYO
"Zenith, a VR MMO has 28 players online"
AKA less than one full Team Fortress 2 community server. So much for that first "M" huh?
I'm surprised more people don't watch your videos all the way through. Cheese
I really like your videos there entertaining and informative and I love it also uh cheese.
That's exactly what I'm aiming for! Thank you for watching all the way! I hope to keep it coming
Cheese
Have yourself a great day.
Thank you so much for watching! You have a great day as well amigo!
cheese!
CHEESE THANK YOU FOR WATCHING!
I left quickly on another account just to drop the viewer retention rate
Edit:Cheese
My dang retention rate lmao
It’s actually not that bad, but lowering it would be pretty funny
Thank you for watching all the way!
Cheese!
I love your channel so much btw :]
Nice
Nice
cheese
LESSGO! Thank you for watching!
CHEEESE! amazing content, keep it going!
We are cooking! Next video is specific to the Varjo Aero and talking about it's development that leads to issues for consumers. Imma keep it coming!
Steam stats show nothing.. Breachers servers are full on standalone for half a year now.
But in general all recent games are just downhill race except a very few cases.. somehow old Half Life 2 not even plays but looks better in VR as many more old game ports are better optimized and look better than many latest Quest 2 games.
It’s a shame that Meta hides usage statistics. The only thing I have to go off of from them is that even they aren’t confident in their retention of users and that there’s a rather large but undefined portion of Quest 2’s out there that are collecting dust. Average vr session times are down to 20 minutes, 30% of people who own headsets haven’t bought a game for it in the past 2 years, numbers just aren’t looking good across the board.
I think it’s time for a switch up.
Also HL2 VR is nuts and I can’t wait to play more of it!
I appreciate you watching and leaving your thoughts!
@@BonelessVR 20 min is exactly how long you can bare Quest 2 abomination on a face. :D
So maybe we should have a consumer VR headset before even trying to sell any games.
Sony, Valve and everyone else can't even sell headsets, in the first place.
And Quest 2 is like a disposable with 99% current disposable VR demos for it.
So we need first 'VR platform' before even counting games for it. And many companies haven't even released their 1st gen headsets yet.
We engage in a mild amount of C H E E S E
You really gonna come along and make me think about how good things, specifically software, could be if technically smart people weren’t so people dumb? My day is ruined and my disappointment is measured in hours on vrc. (Screams in why doesn’t the Wi-Fi button on iPhones turn off the Wi-Fi but put it in a stupid mode that achieves none of my goals)
Seriously though, never thought about the immersion vs fun thing though. Good brain food thank you.
AYE thank you for watching! There's just so many oversights with software. I can't blame dev's entirely though, players do some weird stuff and VR makes them have all these new behaviors that devs have to learn how to design around. Always going to keep it real here haha
Cheese! NGL "immersion" is sometimes really irritating when you got to fight with the janky ness of VR.
One thing that has always been frustrating is going to aim a long gun and the controller nearest your headset starts to jitter. It’s always happened to me in games and I had to completely change how I aimed guns in order to be accurate haha
Thank you for watching all the way!!
Cheese madafacaaaa it's just a very nice video:3
AYE thank you homie!
cheese! :)
Cheese
AYE thank you for watching!
Cheese with pepperoni, like you said, vr is fu*k the only way to survive and even been popular is to be integrated in flat successful games.
fromage 🧀💕
merci mon cher ami
Why we complain about a VR shooter not using VR to he fullest is well why make a VR shooter? I got my Rift CV1 new to reload my own virtal guns like my airsoft guns and gain marksmenship on the range and beyond... That is the dream of so many FPS players... Which like I said if you are going to have no motion/VR controls why not make a flat screen FPS and if you want the expernice why not make a VR video? Why does VTOL VR have no official flat mode or conjrtoler support? It would sell so much more as the only Gen 4+++/5/6 combat sim... but it is the most immersive Flight sim in VR even beyond DCS despite MSFS having the best plug and play support of any VR game I've tried... So I do get you but like the only time for instance I get in VR chat in VR is to walk around my favoite Video game locations for exerscise most of the time I just play flat as I'm still immersed that way. So yeah what makes VR gaming speical right now is it's many fine crafted niches and we would lose that if we whent back to the Rift DV1 days where all their were was flat games bearly modded to VR.
Cheese's
Thank you for watching homie!
CHeese >3 owo love your videos a ton!! keep it up!
Always! Thank you for the support! Getting some mildly heated comments on the newest vid mostly from people who have stockholm syndrome. Thank you for brightening my day
Great chanel ❤
Immersion is not inherently about realism; consistency is far more important to stay immersed in a game, whether flat or VR.
Developing new game mechanics and for new platforms is difficult, time consuming and risky, so I understand why most studios haven't made VR games or haven't adapted mechanics well for the medium. Ironically VR is new to most game devs at this point so they are trying to figure out its strengths while developing for it and don't have decades of game design precedent to build off of.
Realism without intent seems to make VR games feel more buggy and less polished. I thoroughly enjoyed my time with Boneworks; it was the game that made me realize the potential of VR, but it had too much jank. I hated its sequel Bonelab; it felt like the developers were soyfacing over their own game but the mechanics were still broken and the level design wasn't fun. The only two games I've played that handle complex physics interactions consistently are Half-Life: Alyx and Tears of the Kingdom; as cool as physics in games are I think it would be better for current VR game designers to generally stay away from more complex implementations until they can be more reliable.
I think VR design standards should emphasize immersion in terms of being engaging rather than being "realistic". The former is so much easier to pull off than the latter and leads to games that are ultimately more enjoyable.
I'd hesitate to call VR "mainstream" yet, but accessibility-wise being able to buy just one $300 device instead of spending at least an extra $1,000 for a PC (and then jumping through even more hoops to setup) helps drive adoption. The Quest is the moneymaker going forward, so its much higher statistics are missed by exclusively talking about Steam's VR stats: www.roadtovr.com/quest-2-apps-revenue-store-connect-2022. Just something to mention at least, despite Meta hiding usage statistics and their purported retention not being great. It would be really nice to see fewer kids and more adults/"gamers" on the platform though...
Nice editing btw. Oh and uh, cheese!
Thank you for watching and especially for the thoughtful comment!
I really wish that I could’ve used the Quests player counts, but the situation is so dire on PCVR, what I would consider the most dedicated audience, that I have to assume it isn’t much better on the quest side of things. Certainly better, but 7 people on zenith on pc likely doesn’t mean 700 on standalone.
There was a previous comment that explained it really well: ‘realism just makes games blend into each other in my head’
I was talking to a friend last night about it all and honestly with the amount of features that VRChat makes accessible to devs, it made us wonder why they don’t hire devs to create full fledged games in VRChat that would be accessible through VRChat plus.
The games would be hosted on special instances optimized for low latency, they could be played with all of your friends who already use vrchat and have VRC plus, you can use the avatars that you already love. I really dislike subscription services but honestly that would make Vrc plus worth it for me, at least much better value than a profile pic, emojis, and groups.
It sounds like a pipe dream but the more you think about it the more it makes sense. It could as simple as an idle game in your menu all the way to a Vrchat exclusive MMO.
There’s already desktop support as well, and of course the massive install base. What would you think about that as a player and what issues am I missing with that proposition?
About Vr being mainstream, it sucks that it’s best opportunity so far to become mainstream was wrapped in Zuckerberg talking about living and working in VR, I feel like it rubbed the public the wrong way, the NFT craze and all of its scams and controversies were the cherry on top. It’s awesome that the price has dropped so steeply and I really hope the Quest 3 ushers in VRs next adoption phase.
I think it would be pretty cool to be hanging with friends, all agree to go do some quests together or do some combat missions, earn some badges to show on our accounts, then go back to chilling all in the same play session with the only interruption being a couple of load screens. I know things like this already exist on a smaller scale in VRchat, but it would be awesome to see it adopted in a more official capacity and utilizing all of the features we already have but are underutilized like profile badges.
@@BonelessVR The biggest reason I assume VRC doesn't hire devs to make games is the cost, plus the lackluster return on investment. If it were to succeed, what would VRC get, more VRC+ subscriptions from people who didn't already have them? When there are already devs who will make games for free (or be funded through their own Patreons) I doubt VRC would want to spend money on developing flagship games for the platform as opposed to developing more features for it or maintaining it.
Two large barriers to bigger games being developed on VRC are lack of world persistence (essentially save data, a feature that was promised in April 2021) and transferring that data to other worlds (since each world can only consist of a single Unity scene). Even with all you can do in VRChat worlds, there are still plenty of limits compared to a standalone game which gives a dev more freedom, less headache and typically more money/better ROI.
That and because VRC isn't really trying to make an effort to promote the game to people who haven't already tried it. It has spread mostly by word of mouth since its inception. Even if they did more outreach in that way it would surprise me if they actually funded projects like that. I mean, they've gotten away with all this free labor up to this point. They've even encouraged it with their world jams, some of which were game-themed. Why pay for what you can get for free?
TL;DR VRC corporate is weird and idk if they even have a vision. The technology is potentially revolutionary, but the current implementation is cringe.
@@iconoclass Love it. You make some really really good points about the backend that didn't cross my mind. I love the TLDR especially haha, it really does seem like they lack direction. I am very curious what this will all look like in a few years, given that the new wave of headsets including valves own are looking to be substantial upgrades over current hardware. I doubt anything will catch traction quite like the Quest 2 did unless Valve launches another killer title in conjunction with their new hardware.
@@BonelessVR I figure there will probably have to be some unpredictable concurrence of events that simultaneously drive not only VR adoption but also retention; it's not going to come from solely from new headset launches. VR enthusiasts have been complaining about content droughts for years but as you point out (2:04) there are plenty of reasons why devs don't want to pour significant resources into VR. That combined with Unity's pricing debacle spells more doom for VR content short term. Long term one could be optimistic that better VR support will come to other engines but only time will tell.
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AYE why is that emoji so clean? Thank you for watching!
or maybe, just maybe, it's because most people can't afford a vr headset???
Some brand new vr headsets can be found for 200 or less, not even mentioning the used market. Really good deal, I think money is not the issue when people pay 1500 or 2000+ for a new pc
@@B4nan0n "without mentioning used market", for 200 u would've only been able to get a meta quest 2 on the meta website(they are now sold out), which is overall not a good headset and isn't really worth getting even for 200. And now, how does a pc compare to a vr headset? U do realise that a computer is a multifunctional tool, while a vr headset, especially a cheaper one, is mostly just for entertainment. And if u want to play pcvr (ON STATS OF WHICH THIS VIDEO IS BASED ON), you need to ALREADY OWN somewhat of A powerful PC.
queijo
Love it ahah
Cheese bro, think you’ll do a video mutes ever? Seem a controversial topic depending on the audience
I've actually got a video on mutes in the works! Really want to make sure it's quality though, I think I've gone through 3 or 4 different rewrites on the script and editing notes. That'll be out eventually, promise!
Video was better when I was stood next to you before you started recording
Ahah I’m going to keep that footage forever
cheeeseee
WHAT UP MOON
I dont like cheese
I do like cheese but my stomach doesn't, GOBBLESS THANK YOU FOR WATCHING!
Käse
🧀🧀🧀 👋
Eseehc
uoy knahT
@@BonelessVR emoclew er'uoy
cheese
AYE THANK YOU SO MUCH!
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cheese