Same happens in Helluva Boss. The fact that Stella hits Stolas is portrayed as tragic and horrible and yet when Loona literally physically assaults Blitzo multiple times is treated as a joke.
First of all, I think you got the Luna and blitz wrong. Luna never actually goes out and assaults blitz. She never goes out of her way to hit him in assault him ever. Stella does go out of her way to an abuse Stolas
@@gerbera3696 how would Octavia know what abuse victim is and she literally a child and probably didn’t understand and I’m sure they weren’t as loud as bickering as they are in the present
@@XzavierRosaloona kicked blitzo in the balls when he was literally apologizing for saying he'd replace her, which I remind you, was encouraged by moxxie in the first place to get blitzo to actually call out loona's behavior and stand his ground. Being encouraged to call someone out and stand your ground is shit that is often only something that happens when said person is actively being hurt by not doing so. There are other ways to show loona not wanting blitzo to give her physical affection without having her fucking assault him. Plus, loona has a strength and size advantage over literally the entire i.m.p. company, and she clearly would have known it after like the 3rd time hurting them, there's not knowing your own strength and then there's actively using your strength to hurt people you don't like. It'd be like saying a kid pushing over their parent who is in a wheelchair isn't as bad as a partner doing the same thing to their disabled partner, they're equally as bad and one abuse shouldn't be considered more ok than the other because one happens less often, abuse is abuse, period.
@@cyanity1017 first, I wasn’t even talking about any of that. second assault isn’t just one thing it can be multiple things and people hit their friends. All the time doesn’t count as assault and over the years Luna has clearly demonstrated that she doesn’t like being touched and she’s rude and mean and not Doesn’t show her love for people, On the outside, but on the inside, she loves him very much now. Let me clarify do I think Luna should be hitting blitz? No I don’t but you can’t just label assault on something that’s not how it works and if you think that you’re basically saying if I hit my friend playfully, it counts as assault
Fans when Stolas uses Blitz for s3x: 😁🤣😊🤡✅ Fans when Verosika SA’s Moxxie, who is a *married* man: 😁🤣😊🤡✅ Fans when Sir Pentious gets SA’d despite screaming ‘No!’ multiple times: 😁🤣😊🤡✅ Fans when Valentino abuses Angel: 😭😡😤😖❌
There was one time I had to skip most of an episode, you can guess when that was, the subject wasn't something I could delve into calmly. There was also one "joke" that made me cringe before then wanting to slam my head into the phone I watched the show on. Sir Pentious and his Egg bois are my favorite characters, did she really have to do him dirty like that? Only thing that hurts worse? The next scene is Angel trying to keep Val away from Nifty so . . . yeah, one HELL of a tonal shift, eh?
It's interesting that people forget that it was Blitzo that used Stolas for sex first. He fucked him with the intention of stealing the book from him. Stolas then used the book as a transaction to continue having sex with Blitzo because the dumb Imp was the only good point in his childhood (which is just sad when you remember that that too was a scam on Blitzo's side).
No one can justify this by claiming sir Pentious gave consent. He was screaming and resisting going into the room. He did not give consent. At very best, he strongly withdrew consent, which is valid to do at any time during intimacy, and if the other person refuses to stop, it becomes assault.
@@GothWolfRants…and???? If there was a show that promoted terrorism, would it be okay because it’s an adult movie? No. There’s a difference between adult themes and immoral ones.
@@talonsandtails501 Well who appointed YOU the arbiter of what is or isn’t acceptable for dark humor? You don’t get to make those calls so get over yourself.
This is why I can't take Viv seriously as a writer. You can't have it both ways. You show us sexual assault and abuse are either treated seriously or not.
To be fair I’ve made some racist jokes with my friends before and we all find it funny, but I would never support actual racism. You absolutely can make jokes about a dark subject in one scene and still treat it as a serious matter in another.
Viv doesnt seem to understand (or care) what Morality even is. Her interpretation of "morality" seems to boil down to *"If I like this character that makes them good - if I want you to hate this character that makes them bad"*
@@JermaineFrazier-f7h Ikr, Adam is a better person than Alastor, and Alastor is supposed to be more likable. "b-b-b-But he commits reaccuring genocide on "Innocent" souls!" Innocent my ass, 99% of all helldwellers are filled to the brim with people worse than him in every aspect imaginable, if we are taking the humanity and its history seriously (which according to show's messaging we are supposed to). We are talking child molestors, backstabbers, schemers, genociders, maniacs and murderers very often all in one. Charlie: "These sinners are mUh famaleE." Yeah, but we gotta hate Adam cause what, he has an ego and is a dom in a relationship?
@@JermaineFrazier-f7h Its clear that you have the mentality of a 2 year old child. Vivziepop is a competent writer. You just lack any comprehension of what good writing is.
@@trueomen5017 Wow you really didn't watch the series at all. One the Sinners that Charlie in particular was protecting clearly did none of that besides Alastor. And Alastor is never portrayed as a good guy. Adam isn't killing Sinners because of morality but because he just enjoys killing by his own admission.
No joke. But Vivziepop liked a post calling the second r/pe scene “the best joke in the show” which goes to show how little care was actually put into the representation that it would be taken seriously one way and then not the next.
Actually i expected that, i mean in helluva boss literally every "villain act" of mammon against fizz are the same acts that blitz comited against moxxie, the difference is that blitz acts are "comedic moments" but mammon acts are meant to be taken seriously, so something like that was also going to happen in hazbin hotel, so, not a big surprise
now that you mention it... when Loona jokes about Moxxie being "fat" (wich he's not) nobody cares, but when Mammon tells Fizz to watch his weight everyone gets angry??
Not only Sir pentious, it's husk too, angel quite literally pushed his boundaries too far even when husk had explicitally told him no and then they pretend that never happend which is so ANNOYING.
Yeah bro I know but it’s fine right cause he’s gay he gets a pass the double standards go crazy even Moxxie too in helluva boss, hey isn’t it a bit strange both Sir Pentious and Moxxie being straight as far as I can tell were played off as a joke when they got technically sexually assaulted hmmm fishy.
i bet its cuz we are supposed to ship them lol they get one normal interaction n we are supposed to root for them as if angel didnt harass husk 5 minutes prior
This! It's disturbing. Like Husk literally got sexually assaulted by Angel but then Husk turns around and acts like it never happened? Angel also threw a piece of glass that almost hit Husk's head. I get that Husk felt sympathy for him and wants to help Angel though but c'mon. Angel being abused doesn't excuse his actions towards Husk or the others. It's toxic. Husk really is gonna sit here and act like it's fine. Like imagine remembering meeting your partner like that. Like, "Oh yeah, remember when you threw that piece of glass at me cause I rejected you?". I thought Husk was smarter than that.🤔
The show has Angel Dust EXPLICITLY TELL US that he does that as part of his unhealthy coping mechanism for dealing with the trauma he suffers as Val’s beaten, abused sex slave, and he stops doing it once he and Husk bond over their shared bad situation. You people are either complete idiots or you’re a bunch of bad faith concern trolls trashing Viv’s work because you don’t like her personally but you can’t criticize her honestly.
@coco-thenoodleslurper Sir Pentious and Moxie are not straight. Moxie is bi-sexual and Sir Pentious is pansexual I don't were you got that information from
DUDE THIS IS WHAT I'VE BEEN SAYING. The same thing that happened to sir pentious, happened to Moxxie in Helluva Boss, where he was sexually assaulted by several people and it was played up for laughs.
@@GothWolfRants What's funny about sexual assault? It's like the show is struggling to decide whether it wants to treat it as a serious matter or play it up for laughs.
@@campcampcamp It’s played for comedy with Moxxie. I keep seeing 1diots pretending to not understand that the way a scene is supposed to be interpreted depends upon the context of the scene. That is NOT hypocrisy and if you think it is, that’s because you don’t know what it means.
Also, in Season 2 - Episode 1 of Helluva Boss, Stella tries to hit Stolas and it's implied that she did hit Stolas other times, and it's supposed to be potrayed as bad. But in the next episode, Loona abuses and kicks Blitzo in the nuts for no reason at all expect for the fact that he cares for her and trues his best and it's potrayed as "Loona being a total girlboss" and a "funny" joke
Not to mention there’s little to nothing to explain what happened between Loona warmly calling Blitzo “Dad” (Season 1 Episode 8) and the events of Episode 2, Season Two
maybe Stella was right about Stolas being pathetic, I'm not excusing her actions but if a powerful demonic entity prince who has no problem going full on "The Exorcist" on a lady let's their own wife whose brother isn't even higher than him treats him the way she does...maybe just maybe he MIGHT deserves it, if I were Stolas I would've put Stella in her place and remind her that she's dealing with a powerful demon prince
This is something basic that learned as a writer at the age of 14. Before going to high school, I had a messed up writing style and sense of humor. Nothing was really off the table (except for child rape, thats fucking disgusting), rape, murder, children dying, you name it. I had severe issues and trauma and writing was a way to cope with it. I would write tragedies for the sake of being tragic, or extreme violence for the sake of being violent. Once I hit freshman year, I realized that I couldn't have jokes about rape and talk about it in a meaningful way. That and rape or sexual assault, in general, is a horrible thing to joke about. It was beyond distasteful, and I wanted my writing to be better than just crude jokes. So I ditched the dark humor, and my writing has gotten better ever since. So, as a small, independent writer out there, you *can't* have it both ways. And the fact that Viv has an official show with the same kind of humor I had as a messed up, hormonal, and disturbed teenager is disheartening.
@yalovoyhznepomny True, but if you're telling jokes to an audience outside you and your friend group, the rule of comedy is that not everyone will like the joke. You also have to consider the context and delivery of the joke. Not everyone likes rape jokes, and doing a joke when the topic is being covered seriously will seem distasteful to some, myself included. That's my whole point.
@@yalovoyhznepomny if Sir Pentious really did get raped as a jokey way, it’s kind of hypocritical. Sorta like “okay so if it’s funny then why should I care about Angel Dust’s situation”, if that makes sense
Yeah, if Husk was a woman, even with the same build and personality, people would be talking shit about it. The standards have been doubled once more..
SPOILERS FOR EPISODE 8 i never see this brought up and it absolutely deserves to be. pentious is my favorite character and a huge comfort to me and this scene has never sat right with me. it makes me so sad to see this kind of this played off as a joke. really it sucks to see pentious treated as a joke in general, bc i feel like his death was treated as a joke as well. it happens so suddenly and doesn’t seem major until you see how the others react and then all of a sudden it’s a big deal. literally what do they expect you to think?? “oh haha he just died- OH NO HE JUST DIED :(((“ like?? idk it felt rlly weird to me??
It definitely could have been handled better! Sir Pent had the best arc in the show, and I've seen people DESPISE the show, but still love his character. The writers had to be aware they were onto something which is why they kept him for the ride. Seeing him treated as a joke at the beginning made sense, as he was a bumbling "villain" we've seen a million times over, but by the time the last episode comes around, while he's still funny, he's now changed both in the show and as perceived by the audience. We really didn't still see him the same way (like we're also not supposed to see Angel as only a foul-mouthed s*x addict at this point) and that's why the "joke" of his death felt off. I do think using him as the first to ascend is appropriate, and killing him was good contextually, but the way it was handled was rough as ... uh, hell lol
Seriously. What was even the point of hyping that scene up like he was going to defeat Adam or at least anyone if they’re going to kill him off a second later? Sir Pentious started off and ended as a pathetic joke. It’s a shame too, because he had a pretty decent arc and was genuinely funny up until that point.
I had to pause the episode when the Sir Pentious joke came up, and this was my exact thoughts.. how are you going to show how serious it is, but then make light and joke about it RIGHT after??
Same. That was honestly the weirdest part of the episode. One part Sir pentious being dragged into a sex room is supposed to be comedic while at the literal minute AFTER that we have Angel standing up to Valentino in the same time on the same subject
Because they’re two completely different situations that have absolutely nothing to do with each other and have absolutely no common elements between them in any way whatsoever.
I feel vivziepop has a "George Lucas Problem" they both have great ideas, but they can't execute it well. They both need people to help flesh out their ideas or filter them out.
Basically, the difference between the og star wars trilogy and the prequels is that, by the time they were made, there was no one left willing to critisize his writing considering how legendary his career had been to that point. I feel like the massive success of the hazbin pilot and the initial success of helluva has lead to something similar with Viv.@Lazy722
finally SOMEONE TALKS ABOUT THAT SCENE!!! PENTIOUS LITERALLY GETS DRAGGED AWAY AND WE HAVE NO IDEA WHAT HAPPENS TO HIM IN THERE!!! (besides the context clues..)
@@GothWolfRants it can be enjoyed sure, but its very contradictory to how the serious topic of SA is handled! You have to pick one because it effects real people, this can also be done with murder and death to have consistency ^_^ and maybe emotionally mature adults shouldn't be scrolling through comments of a 3 month old video because theyre upset someone has a different opinion?
In fact, this double standards concerning sexual assault was kind of foreshadowed in Helluva Boss. Do you remember that scene when Moxxie enters a room with succubi and incubi and gets assaulted and it's treated as joke. He literally says : " Hey, don't touch that! - Moxxie, don't let her access to any of your holes!" We should've paid more attention to this "joke". Yes, it wasn't sexual assault, but let's be honest it could have been one if Moxie didn't escaped. And we could also talk about Stolas (who is gay) who obviously had sex with Stella... Or his obvious toxic relationship with Blitzo, using a power dynamic to have sex daily with him (and being gay doesn't make him innocent!) If I'm honest, I think VivziePop is using such a heavy topic as abuse (in general) just because she likes it's "aesthetic"...
It's been rumored that viv was SA'ed, as I don't think she will treat abuse like a joke. (I think she writes abuse because that's her coping mechanism). If she did get SA'ed, then shit that's horrible as hell.
@@DrAngelKins I wouldn't go as far as saying it's a "coping mechanism". Some scenes are clearly assault scenes (like that one I've mentioned with Moxxie) but they are treated as a joke, like it wasn't a big deal because it "didn't happened" it was "just an attempt". I want to offend nobody with what I'm going to say here. Maybe she was actually sexually assaulted, and that's truly awful if that's the case. But writing litteral attempts of rape and sexual harassment as jokes (you're supposed to laugh at these scenes) in a show landed on a very mainstream plateform that a lot of people (including other victims of these crimes) watch, it's showing disrespect towards other victims of abuse. It's like telling them "It's no big deal! It was just an attempt!" which might trigger them. I do believe that, whether that rumor is true or not, she and her writing team should pay more attention with how they handle such a heavy subject. When the episode 4 landed on Amazon Prime there was no content warning about the depiction of violent sexual assault scenes. People (and by that I mean victims of former victims) had to complain about the lack of content warning to add one. And when this behaviour could be seen as "clumsy" at best, let's not forget that she hired someone with a rape fetish (and who's vocal about it) to work one the sexual assault scene of this same episode. Here, I don't think it's forgivable, wether she's a former victim or not. But even if we admit this rumor is true, she's not alone! When you want to write a story involving sexual assault you make sure to offend as least people as possible. But here, you have attempts treated as jokes, an episode with no content warning about it's depiction of a violent gang rape, which someone who sees it as a kink worked on. And in that same episode this victim we saw being abused is called a loser. I think that's a lot to excuse with just "coping mechanism", especially when you see all the backlash that followed. Not everyone deals with their trauma the same way, that's why it's called a heavy subject, it's difficult (to not say impossible) to offend nobody when you choose to talk about them. But in that case, I think a lot of things could've been avoided, especially if Vivienne was indeed sexually assaulted. Especially this content warning thing. That's why I'm having a doubt on that rumor (which by now is just a rumor) and frankly believe she just likes to show sexual scenes between men only.
Yeah, I feel like people don't even pay attention to the fact that blitzo and stolas's relationship is literally just angel dust and Valentino under rose tinted glasses. -stronger character puts weaker character into sex related deal so weaker Chara can keep doing job -relationship is based on force and constant sex -weaker character very clearly doesn't like the fact they keep doing sex but has to pretend they want it -stronger character EXPECTS sex for the smallest things. Hell, even the first time blitzo and stolas "do the sex" it's not even consentual sex, it's pity sex on blitzo's side. Stolas could have easily just went through with divorcing Stella after he got caught the first time, just made a small deal with blitzo where he has to give back the book to stolas when it's needed, and that'd be fine, but stolas chose to include sex in the deal, and did it at a time where blitzo was actively in danger and didn't have time to think through the deal, and it's not like he didn't hear what was happening because if he heard blitzo's tone and loud fucking gunshots in the background he should have just backed off to talk about the deal later. They both took advantage of the other when said other was in a desperate time and had no choice in the deal. You can't even use the excuse of "oh stolas didn't know blitzo didn't care about fucking him and only wanted the book" because he literally saw blitzo run off with the book the first time, he clearly fucking knows.
Vivziepop is NO stranger with using double standards. Another one she blantantly uses is one with Stella and loona. Stella obviously suffered karma for emotionally abusing stolas via divorce. If loona has suffered any karma for physically abusing blitzo then her confirmed 21 year old ass would've gotten kicked out the house and into the streets.
@@alyssabullock6421 Wow. So no matter what kind or how bad of abuse bully loona condones your gonna keep justifying it just because of trauma? Psycho cat literally kicking the genitals that tries to be an good dad, got you out of literal prison and still cares for you despite your ADULT age is PURE SPITE not an fucking excuse. You loona defenders really do disgust me at this point.
@@alyssabullock6421 Wow. So no matter what kind or how bad of abuse bully loona condones your gonna keep justifying it just because of trauma? Psycho cat literally kicking the genitals that tries to be an good dad, got you out of literal prison and still cares for you despite your nasty attitude and ADULT age is PURE SPITE. You loona defenders really do disgust me at this point...
Thank you for finally adressing this. This is what made me give up hope for Hazbin- the double standards and tone shifts from the SA of Angel to Pentious getting dragged to be unconsensually assulted. Like... what??? What is this writing? Why is one okay and hahha but the other is so sad?
I think you misunderstood the controversy around episode 4: -people understood the intent of the scene, showcasing Angel dust’s trauma and abuse. The problem was that it was handled terribly and felt incredibly tactless. Many victims still finding the music video deeply offensive. -the person who storyboarded the scene was someone who shipped angelval and called it their “rape ship” (and in fact had ANOTHER music video where we see Angel dust getting raped on screen). -Vivzie also made a sex joke hyping up the music video that features sexual assault -the episode references said storyboarder’s comic where Angel dust was about to be raped by Vox and Valentino. Also. People still criticize this episode and song. It didn’t exactly “die down”. A lot of survivors were just sick of dealing with fans screaming “media illiteracy” at them.
I still don't fully understand what's so tactless about it, when it's so similar to what was shown in the addict music video, I'm definitely missing something since so many people who have (for a lack of a better term) credibility on a topic like this are upset.
One of the problems with being a fan of something is that you become to blind to the irredeemable flaws of a poorly written show. At this point, simply being a fan of poorly written shows is about as bad as robbing a homeless person; what's worse is that there people who have the audacity to still give these worms the benefit of the doubt, when we live in a world where we simply cannot do that anymore. Too much betrayal comes from giving people the benefit of the doubt.
@@Trident_Gaming03The Addict music video was also tactless but at least some could blank that part of the video. I agree with birdboy on this, even if the storyboarder or Vivzie didn't say any of that and never intended the episode to come off that way, it still came out as it did. That's the biggest issue right there.
Honestly, it would have been funny if the joke was similar to the 'sir pentious offering to buy a drink' joke, where everyone just cheers or laughs in unison instead instead of making it into SA.
there shouldve been an awkard silence instead. it shouldve been a "rule of three" tho where before he said the sex thing he said something else that made people cheer
@duckduckguse I feel like they start cheering when he begins speaking but then fall completely silent when he says sex. I honestly feel like that would’ve actually been a much funnier joke.
Viv's fans literally harassed poor lavendertowne for not researching outside the show when she's a casual viewer... I think if you have time research outside the show then the writing isn't good. I personally as a victim didn't like angel dust's song, I don't like how angel as a victim isnt shown properly. Is he scared of val, who's openly evil and does he wanna be free? Or is he in love/lust but also hurt by a tricky abuser.
He is scared by the abuse, the only thing "tying" him to the rapist is a contract. Imagine you were bound to be a slave, have you been? No, well, Angel is not just a usual victim.
@@dargunsh7156 hey pal, I have a friend who was sold into real slavery, ya know the child marrige kind and even in the eyes of someone that was a slave, Angel's character makes no sense even to someone who was in the same if not worse position then angel. But also looooove you're trying to invalidate me as a victim of repeatedly sexual abuse, emotional, and physical abuse that I faced for years. very viv fan of you.
exactly. If your audience has to do _homework_ to understand the overabundant details you put in your story, you've failed as a writer. A casual viewer isn't gonna know about the expansive wiki pages or care enough to watch hour long livestreams, like PUT IT IN THE ACTUAL SHOW. Getting mad at people for not knowing about every single detail you put into your characters is just stupid tbh. Yeah, they we'ren't really clear on that. He seems to be used to the abuse but also flaunts it. I find it weird how.. they try and make Val comedic? Therefore taking away any intimidation factor he's supposed to have?
The big problem with that scene is also that it was not really that funny or clever so I wrote this little dialogue. It's about a rewrite where Pentious is taken outback, but the sinners took him there only to tell him to be more confident and go get Cherri and stop this embarrassing charade where he keeps doing something dumb. Sinners are done telling Pentious about how he needs to man up and get the girl he wants and stop acting like this and Pentious then goes: Pentious: You are all so nice... Why are you all in Hell? One buff Sinner looking like a bull: One day was angry... Stumbled on annoying kid, punched that one 'til them stopped movin'. Got send to jail a bit la'er. Got the chair. Uncomfortable piece of junk. Another, female dog looking one one: Jumped one guy, rode him, got him hooked up on stuff before. Guy was traumatized, think he offed themself later. Not before they did me in. Another one, small looking like a purple shadow of a man with horns: Burned a house to the ground after trying to steal from it. Bunch of people burned. Dead. Got boozed afterwards and got hit by car. Bull from the start: We all did our share to be 'ere. But not enough for it to be all that we is. We did enough to get why we 'ere... an enough to regret. silence falls over the room Female Sinner: 'Tis what this place is for. Consent. It for sinners who did wrong and want to not do wrong no more. We all regret, we all have to live with it. We all want to fix it... Shadow Demon: We got all eternity for it. And you too. If you do not get it with this Cyclop gal so what? Another good one is bound to fall here sooner or later. That's how this place works. Pentious: I... I did a lot of wrong... I remember. Do I deserve something better? Bull Demon: Who knows? What do you think? You think you deserve it? Pentious: ... Bull Demon: Don't answer. Go out there and find out champ. Bull places his hand firmly on Pentious's shoulder and pushes him out the door I think this would nicely humanize people of hell and make them feel more real. Show us some who while are awful people who did something terrible in life they are not defined by their sins. I think we need more of that in the show. And I think overall this would be a funny subversion. You think that kind of thing will happen, but then you get this twist. I think it would be funny and heartfelt.
I LOVE your rewrite! ~ ☆❤☆❤☆❤ It has layers and nuance to it as random background characters get to interact with a main character while we also get to learn about them, so that we don't fatigued by just hanging around the main characters all the time. Your comment reminds me of "The Brave Little Toaster" especially in the Junkyard scene where we got to learn about the lives of the doomed junk cars at the end of their roads before they are literally DESTROYED! ~ :D Also, I love what you said about "Humanizing" these sinners. Hazbin Hotel's original premise was supposed to be about Charlie rehabilitating sinners (Which it still did with WIP Angel Dust & the actually dead, gone, but Heavenly redeemed Sir Pentious! ~ :D I just wish we had some episodes, say about a good 7 episodes just focusing on random non-main character demons checking into the Hotel, Charlie working them through their problems, listening to them, learning and empathizing with them, discouraging them from their past sinful habits & history, being lovingly assertive when she has to in order to put them on the path to redemption. Not everyone in Hell is an absolute Monster, some are just genuinely decent individuals who sometimes end up there due to uncontrollable circumstances or by someone else! ~ :O
@@violetthebat8810 I wish redemption was more elaborated upon as to what it means. Because to me it being just "being nice" is a bit too simple and not satisfying as by far I would prefer if it was more about recognizing one's own sins and who they hurt, regretting and wanting to atone and striving to make them right and in the end finding forgiveness not just from others, but themselves for it, as they strive for redemption, recognizing that they are worthy of salvation. Something of that nature which makes Sinners challenged by their own sins that they have to face to go forward. Which leads me to my fears about Angel Dust specifically because I feel like his conflict will be just about "Oh his dad is le h*mophobic and so is his brother" and in fact Angel is mostly innocent and his greatest sins are doing drugs, dancing in clubs and being into man. I would be very disappointed if that was all there was to Angel's sins as this would be honestly very disappointing. As I would like if despite his very terrible circumstances he was still shown as a very flawed and awful individual who in some capacity DESERVES Hell. Someone who may have hurt a lot of people not just as a gangster, but just as a person too. Like maybe he was a terrible brother or son towards his family. I even have a dialogue for a scene of this kind. Where maybe Angel tries to call out his father and he gives him a reality check: "I hated you because...? Really? THIS is what you think I care about?! This is what you think is the worst quality of yours? THAT!? Anthony. May I remind you that after your brother was in a shoot out and almost died you NEVER showed up to check on him! You were busy, happily doing some performance in a club and when I tried to tell you about it you laughed! There was one day I saw you shaking on the floor, you overdosed. I was dragging your convulsing body to a hospital to save you. I was afraid to my core that you were close to ending up in this place, but you were saved... and what did I saw few days later? YOU DOING DRUGS AGAIN! You left our house to become a dancer, humiliating your family and yourself and exposing yourself to danger despite what everyone said. You dismissed all of that. You told us to f*ck off from your life... And that's what I did. I do not hate you because you are g*y, h*mos*xual HOWEVER THE F*CK IT'S CALLED. I despise you now, because you are and always were a disrespectful, uncaring little sh*t caring more for your own pleasure than anything else. But never in my life or unlife would I despise you more than I ever loved you. But you did your damn best to make that happen." I would love that. A showcase of all the things wrong about Angel that he has to face and make right. Him having to face his sins, people he hurt and strive to correct and become someone better. To become someone worthy of salvation and also recognizing that he is worth salvation. That I would like.
@AzraelSoulHunter I also agree with this comment! ~ :D There would be a clever advantage to use Angel's name as a double entendre here: Angel is seen as an "Angel" to Charlie & The Hotel Sinners, but is seen as a fucking DEVIL to his father Henroin & brother Arackniss while the real "Angel" here (In terms of Afterlife status) is Molly! Angel will be confronted and HAS to own up to his shitty past behavior to his family & people he hurt so that he truly never behaves like that again, makes amends with them & truly gets to float up into those pearly gates! ~ :D
@@violetthebat8810 Also maybe use Angel Dust as a drug in a more accurate manner. Because I read what Angel Dust does and it's goddamn scary honestly. It basically makes you into a Jekyl and Hyde. Which is something I use in a fic I write about this series called "Torments of Sinners and imps" where I have Angel have split personality due to overuse of Angel Dust where part of him regrets, another is paranoid and another is hateful. Although I left it alone for a while as I focus on another one I write. I do wish this show did something like that because it feels like Viv seems to believe all drugs just act like cocaine.
@AzraelSoulHunter That's an intriguing idea! ~ :D With Angel having split personalities due to the drug he's named after, that could open more doors to his character exploration & present conflicts! We could see when he uses the drug, and how he acts when the drug is taken away, he goes through EXTREME withdrawal as he seizes out violently and we can see him for a second turn into his true full demon arachnid form! Another thing I wish Hazbin Hotel did was explore a "Bad Ending" Route in a few episodes. What I mean by this is Charlie has to come to terms that she (cannot) save/help them all. I want to see her fail (sometimes) because if she successfully redeems all the sinners that comes her way, then it will be unrealistic because not everyone will be able to the physical ability or mental fortitude to change. I also want to see the struggle of some sinners, watch them fail (I'm being a real Alastor here, I'm sorry, XD) But it's necessary to show that good intentions can't always guarantee another party will be saved without THEM also putting in work to IMProve themselves! ~ :D
just saw a comment defending it because "they’re two completely different situations that have absolutely nothing to do with each other and have absolutely no common elements between them in any way whatsoever"😓
Sadly... Yeah. Im gonna have to agree. Dont get me wrong, twitter is a cunt to people like her, unfairly i think... but damn does she need to learn stuff
Yeah. And the sad part is that because she has people by her side (close mutuals, unyielding fans, and a horde of simps who will basically lick her feet if so desired), she won't stop and change her ways. She can't even take a simple joke into stride.
Or I think she's not paying attention to what she's trying to focus on? I mean, most of these scenes don't bounce off each other or connect. It sometimes feels disjointed or random. She's not a bad writer, as her writing is great. However, she needs to know what scene to use to avoid undoing previous scenes, like SA.
I feel like this show and Helluva Boss contains so many flaws in writing and tonal inconsistencies because it banks on the audience's expectation to justify said inconsistencies by interpreting the lore. Lore is acceptable in any type of media for world building, but the story, which is put front and center, needs to be able to stand on its own two legs. The writer should not have to gaslight fans into making mental gymnastics for why the plot is so inconsistent.
That joke in Episode 6 was straight up unforgivable because I hate how SA was treated as a joke not too long after Episode 4 where it was portrayed very seriously. I loved Episode 4 for making an attempt to depict SA in a way where it is depicted as a form of sympathizing with Angel Dust and how we love to hate Valentino. So, having Episode 6 deliver a joke revolving around SA not too long after Episode 4 is just unforgivable in my opinion.
"That joke in Episode 6 was straight up unforgivable" it is not as bad as you or this vid is making it out to be." So, having Episode 6 deliver a joke revolving around SA not too long after Episode 4 is just unforgivable in my opinion." The joke did not revolve around S/A the joke revolves around Sir Pentious saying that he will giving out things for eveyone because he gets nervous every time cherry pop ask why.
@@chidubemanukwuthe club was called “Consent” and he walked out of the room unscathed. It’s possible that after he was dragged in and things settled down, Sir Pentious simply said “no” and then left. Also, people have to consider the different circumstances surrounding both Pentious and Angel Dust. Pentious’s situation happened as a result of a misunderstanding, and was shown as a one-time occurrence. Angel has been dealing with his situation for, at most, 40 years, and we’ve actually seen it happen onscreen.
Hazbin and Helluva have the Harry Potter problem, where actions aren't inherently bad, it depends on who does it. Blitz can fatshame his employee but not Mamon, just like Dudley can be fatshamed but not Molly
Sorry for my English: if we were to make a list of all the hypocrisy in Hazbin Hotel and Helluva boss it would be enormous, there is even hypocrisy if we compare moments from both series, there are too many and the fans also seem to have that double standard.
Totally agree, also in my opinion that scene was wasted, that joke could’ve been better, sir Pentius could’ve said that he will have sex with everyone and when sinners will start forcefully dragging him Angel could’ve saved him, this avoids double standard and actually adds some depth to Angel dust too, he knows how it feels like to be SA-d thats why he didn’t let one of his friend to go through that.
I understand what viv is trying to do, but some things definitely can change the tone with SA. Treating SA as a joke here felt weird. It felt disgusting, but i think viv was trying to be funny(which horribly backfired)
Yeah but difference is what makes that scene in episode 6 funny is because he was trying to hard to get Cherri's heart and it backfire on him. And he didn't even got assaulted. He manage to escape with ease.
@@sunkenobi1501 Getting someone dragged for that is not a defendable moment, it's just random and make no sense then getting away with ease makes adding it pointless.
@@sunkenobi1501 There was nothing funny with that scene. He was terrified. He was clawing and calling for help while no one around, especially ones who knew him, did absolutely nothing.
I want to add something that I don’t think is in the video, but do correct me if I’m wrong: A while ago there was a controversy with Raphielle, who made the Poison storyboards because they had Valentino x Angel as their ‘rape ship’, and then Viv commented on some pins saying she had to have them. The pins weren’t made by Raphielle. They were made by a SA survivor who uses Valentino and Angel Dust as a way to express their trauma.
Hi, SA survivor here! If anyone actually cares, I have a few things to say about this: 1) I didn't like the Poison sequence, and I found it a little triggering, but it didn't wreck me or offended me or anything like that. Every survivor has a different story, and, while this representation might be horrid to some, others might enjoy it. And that's ok. 2) For some people in the comments: please stop speaking FOR US and treating us like little babies. We don't need fan police to keep us safe. We can just not watch the thing. Chill. 3) You are absolutely right about the bad writing. Viv is a bad writer. The double standard that you point out in the video is definitely proof of this. 4) Because SA is such a serious topic, it would have been very smart of the team to check with an actual SA survivor before animating the sequence, especially if it's designed by an artist who openly lists non-con as one of his fetishes on twitter (which is also OK because we are all adults here and this is a FICTIONAL show where no real humans were harmed. Fantasies are not real!). That would've been the responsible thing to do. 5) If you aren't the appropriate age, do not watch this show.
You're being a little delusional about checking with a victim part. How the fuck are they supposed to do that? This isn't indie animation, Hazbin Hotel has a cooperate behind it.
@@ravenr0cks Perhaps it's delusional to think that someone would care that much, but it doesn't have to be, and it shouldn't be. Any writer could've, for example, made a post on Reddit asking how survivors would represent the abuse in an animated format, what they would like and dislike to see, etc. It ain't that hard. Even if it's delusional, I can still put my idea out there. Sensitivity readers are a thing, too.
@@SadOmnisexualBoy Great point about the specific age! I'll change my words to reflect that. Something I did like about Poison was the tonal clash, how this duality exists of looking and acting like you're feeling fine even though you've been through hell. We try to convince ourselves that nothing it's happening, sometimes. The part I *PERSONALLY* disliked was how parts of the song were coordinated with the animation to make the lyrics less subtle, it felt a bit forced to me. But I'm happy that you enjoyed it! We rarely see any rep for this kind of thing, it's great to find art that speaks to it.
Another SA victim here: Trauma is not a fetish. It does not deserve to be represented as a “fetish”. Our experinces are not “fictional.” Representation of a real life topic such as SA deserves respect in all media that it is depicted in. It’s all harmless until it’s not and suddenly you got people taking sa less seriously like that Sir Pentious scene. Sa is not a “joke” or a “fetish.” Retraumatizing yourself by fetishizing sa will only cause yourself AND others more harm. Speaking from personal experince. Ralphielle is wrong.
From this I mean that sa representation is not “fiction.” If it was fiction, it would be something that involves something that doesnt effect people in real life. But sa does effect people in real life, and therefore the representation deserves to be handled with respect. NSFW or not.
It makes me so uncomfortable how s/a is often played off as a joke, when it’s really rather horrifying. The best example I can think of off the top of my head is the scene in Spring Broken where Moxxie is violated by Verosika’s friends, and it’s played off like a joke. It’s super gross
MAN!! Thank you for pointing this out! More specifically, I always HATED the "Moxxie is fat joke" like the most obvious reason is the double standards with Mammon's comments to Fizz, but it also makes no sense, Moxxie (just like every damn character Viv makes) is skinny as hell!
Just to point out, she has characters like Mimzy, Mammon, and Adam that aren't skinny :) And the show is a dark comedy show and with Loonas personality the "Fat jokes" are just that. Jokes.
Also, when Angel Dust is SA’d, it’s the saddest thing in the world. But when Angel Dust sexually harasses Husk and other people, it’s “funny” and “cute”. Don’t get me wrong, what Val does to Angel is much worse but it doesn’t give Angel a free pass to be a creep either. There are people in rl who’ve been SA’d who hate the writing of Angel Dust and how these are sometimes jokes or passable with Angel doing them. But because Angel and Husk are both guys, it’s totally fine and treated as a joke when Angel oversteps boundaries and makes him visibly uncomfortable, but if Angel was a straight man doing this to a woman, he would be hated and the ship wouldn’t be approved. It’s almost as if gay people are treated more as a fetish than actual people. If Angel Dust is SA’d, it the worst thing ever, but then with Sir Pentious, it’s “funny”? He was clearly panicking and resisting. It’s one thing to say you’ll “do it” but a person should get the right to bail out at any given time. If they resist and the people still touch them, that’s assault. And it’s not funny. Look, I don’t mind SA jokes, I think they can be funny if executed properly and with sensitivity in mind, but there’s telling a joke and then there’s showing it happening. I’m into dark humor, I’ve told and heard jokes that make people go 😬, but the kind of “jokes” Viv shows in the series is just a bit too far. Like she can make up her mind when to take things seriously and when to tell a joke. Moxxie gets violated by Verosika and her posse which is a “joke” as well as him getting groped in the nether regions by Blitzø and you would think Millie would go feral but nooooo. Only in the short when her sister, Sallie Mae, visits her and her sister gets groped by some man in the bar does she go feral. I get it, that’s her sister, but Moxxie is still HER HUSBAND! And if I had a husband who was being groped by man or woman, I don’t care which, let’s just say they wouldn’t be able to touch anyone ever again after I’m done with them.
Same goes with Val though, she wrote the scenes with Angel as a cruel monster, but he is also the dumbest guy in whole Hell. And for some reason, this rapist has fans that love him?
Wait... I'm sorry but Val can be more than one thing in a character. Just because he is serious in one episode doesn't mean he's like that with everyone else. He is a short-tempered piece of shit who abuses his power. That's who actual abusers are. Just because he is played for laughs in one scene doesn't discredit who he acts in other scenes. Also people are allowed to love villains doesn't mean they condone what they do. That's a thing.
He's not stupid. He's impulsive. That's a big part of the reason why he abuses Angel. Also I don't see the problem with loving Valentino as a character. He's great.
I don’t see a problem in having Val as a favorite character, I mean I get what your saying but like people like Val because of how of a well written villain he is, and his design
@@Jay-gurl That’s because spousal abuse is treated seriously while Loona is treated as slapstick comedy, which is a thing that has existed ever since humor has existed. Now either grow up or enjoy having emotional breakdowns at Wile E. Coyote cartoons.
@@GothWolfRants I suppose given how VIVZ treats jokes of SA but I still don't like it. We can agree to disagree on that matter. But abuse is wrong, period
I think you CAN have 1 subject represented by 2 diferent standars in the same show, However what Hazbin fails to do is execution. For a good example I will once again pull of Bojack Horseman: this is show that would constantly joke with the serious subject for most of the season and than on the final episodes would punch you in the stomache with the same situations as before but now in a not comedic way. And thats the diference: comedy first serious latter, will increase the seriousness of the act by reconstextualising how messed up the audience were by laughing at the tragedy. Serious first comedy second, will undermine all the seriousness and gravity of the first act.
You have to go on a freaking treasure hunt to find some of the lore of this show instead of having to just watch it, i doubt anyone really thinks Viv is a good writer
Can we also talk about how Crimson killing imps for fun was unforgivable while Moxxie killing 3 toxic imps was seen as an ingnorable and negligible joke(I'm talking about western energy where he not only let that imp die but also exploded the petrol pump)
I'm all cool with morally grey characters, but hypocrisy does not make a person likeable. And sort of building off of what you said, sinners are commonly portrayed as vile, depraved, or just rude individuals from the first episode, yet the show then insists that they're all morally grey without showing a good side to most of the background sinners, and the exterminations show the angels cruelly slaughtering innocent children, as though the awful people who kind of had it coming don't exist during these purges.
While it felt out of nowhere the scene of the bar, considering that Sir Pentious has the ability to hipnotize people with his eyes its very likely that he was able to get rid of those guys without that much problem, just like he used that ability against Angel when he was punching him in episode 2.
Alright I could understand that, but he literally doesn't escape until cherri goes into a room with one of the other club members [ with said club member being ONE OF THE SAME ONES WHO ASSAULTED PENTIOUS. ] and if I remember correctly he gets a condom off of his suit too, if he immediately used the hypnosis we would have seen him got out way quicker with less signs he did get s/a'd, plus he's hyperventilating so it's clear that there was literally a struggle to get away.
@@GothWolfRants ah yes perfect comedy, joking about sexual assault after literally having an entire episode showing why sexual assault is bad and depicting it in a disturbing completely detailed nothing left up to the imagination way basically also giving us a clear visual of what might have happened in the joke scene, perfect logic there. Guess I might as well go to an assault therapy group and make a sexual assault joke over there is that's the definition of dark humor by your logic.
@@cyanity1017 Hey dude, i know this is kinda late but i still wanted to answer because one, you are remembering the scene wrong and two, you seem like a nice person so i didn't wanted you to be sad. Him not coming out of the room immediately might seem weird however literally 2 minutes later he comes out of the opposite side of the room (looking for his friends), 20 or something demons wouldn't let him go that fast. Also when he comes out of the room he is fully clothed (those demons would have ripped his clothes off immediately), he is not injured, he is fully unscathed and in general there is no signs on him that indicates he wasn't able get away (there is no kiss marks on him or something like that, he is not shaking or anything) and if you don't believe me you can rewatch the scene! Also he was hyperventilating simply because he was scared. I know this is pretty long but i really didn't wanted you yo be sad and you were remembering the scene wrong
Okay this would actually be a lot funnier if nothing sexual actually happened with Sir Pentious. Like if they were later seen having some drinks and playing go fish or something I would be laughing my butt off.
If Sir Pentious was still a gag character, it could work (not really though) but the moment he's been added as a Main character, this is not excusable. For shame Vivziepop, you wonder why people have issue with you and your writing.
"For it to be turned into a complete joke" VIVZIE CAN'T WRITE!!!!!!!! We know this! I know dozens of people who ONLY watch this show for the music or for a specific character because the pacing and writing is not a good enough reason to watch the show.
@@artistanthony1007 I don't need it there are a lot of review that says that is a good series with a good plot and good joke (objective) try to watch mortebianca or 151eg
It's almost as though Vivziepop is trying to have her cake and eat it too, when we all know we can't (and shouldn't) do that. But I digress. After all, she is "just the victim".
@@GothWolfRants both sides of the argument are awful. People are aggravating her on purpose because they know it'll get a negative reaction from her. It helps absolutely no one.
@@nevaehhamilton3493 YOU are the ones misrepresenting her work to disparage her moral character, so no it isn’t “both sides”, it’s just you pearl-clutching virtue signalers.
I think if there's any good comparison as to show how Hazbin Hotel and Vivzie's other media just simply can't portray assault in a respectful manner, look no further than Mouth Washing. With the HH fan base, people literally cosplay Angel Dust's abuser and outright just say that they don't care about what Valentino has done to hurt and violate Angel because they think he's too physically attractive to hold accountable. With the Mouth Washing fan base, a lot of people refuse to even refer to Jimmy by name. That's how much practically everybody hates Jimmy.
The "joke" with Sir Pentious would have been so easy to make non-rapey. They could've just had it so that some sex demons start eyeing Pentious up and he realizes what he just said and adds that he didn't mean it, which causes them to walk off looking disappointed.
You put this out of context, Sir P was trying to court Cherry bomb. The issue was the man has zero confidence in himself, low self esteem, and next to no game. In that moment of fear he just blurted out he's doing it with everyone. What it is when they drag him is that he didnt expect people to hop on so fast. Imagine saying you'd face anyone in a drink contest in a bar full of crazy people, someone is going grab you in a pinch. This man is out of his element and little understanding of a hyper sexual society. In the Pilot episode he does not understand what an innuendo is.
Yeah, about the glorifying sexual assault. Even with the context of the music video it still feels like glorification, the only difference is the intent. It feels like the people who try to bring to light issues of abuse but do it in outlandish manner and then it gets labeled as performative with no substance. That's how I felt when I watched that episode, that on top of Vivzie's iffy writing, for me it just gets narrative confusing.
No it doesn't. If it was "confusing" then that's entirely on you actualy because they left no room for confusion. Many people have pointed it out but the "glorification" come from the fact that it is a sex industry. They are trying to glamorize the industry not the assualt. Angel (happy or not) need to have a smile on his face and perfom all the time for the camera. It's what he does.
@@wellhellothere-v1h Why does the sex industry need to be "glamorized." Also that just makes the episode come off as unhinged instead. At best it comes off as a hamfisted attempt to show how Angel tries to cope. Also if it were entirely on me, then why do other people also come to a similar conclusion? We didn't forgive an Indian company for trying a publicity stunt over the sex assaults that happen. We rightfully tore down Cuties, so by all means I'm not going to give episode 4 a pass because of "intention."
@@rutyqutykandi1361 because that's how the industry is. You want a good depiction do you not? Why do u think it's "hamfisted"? I'm sorry but the portion of people who complain about this show are just hating at this point. Many people came to the agreement that episode 4 was good. Even this video says it. Even some huge critics don't think it was a bad episode. The few people who do are mostly haters. and I just read to word "confusing" for the first time from you so I think it's just you? I don't know anythin about the Indian company incident you are talking about so I don't have much of an opinion on it I don't usually like to use "victim priviledge" but as a victim of SA I thought episode 4 was a well done attempt even if episode 6 was not
@@wellhellothere-v1h I don't want a glamorized look. I don't need a poor portrayal of the sex industry either. I think a neutral depiction is far healthier than either glamor or horror. If you're just going to instantly label people not liking this episode as "just hating" then it's clear to me you don't actually want to understand other people's perspectives. That's probably why I'm the first person who you heard that had this opinion.
@@rutyqutykandi1361 Glamorizing is the realistic version. Sex industry is glamorized to a T. It's far from a "poor portrayal" . I am going to abel people as haters because they always fail to see the logic and the reasons why the show is the way it is. The person who doens't understand is not me, it's actually you
When i first watched the ep with sir Pentious getting SAed i was so confused and annoyed because it was such a big point in angel dust ep that it obviously is bad.... just couldn't they make another joke?
The only way as a MC this could have worked is if Angel was hurt horribly beforehand and then has those Sinners teach him what it's like but that doesnt work either because Angel is supposed to be a person who doesnt do that stuff and working to do good so that entire scene could've been replaced with something more important, it also makes no sense for SP's character to say that, he's a show off and dominant to an extent but never gave me that vibe he wants to fxck everyone. Basically that whole thing could've been done better. Edit:Oh wait, he didn't have any understanding of sxx jokes and humor in Pilot so yes like I said, makes no sense for his character.
In that scene i actually stopped for a second just to process what happened. Altough the joke about having sex with everyone I find it funny, i didn't think the same when a bunch of people dragged Sir Pentious to a sex room
Let's step back for a moment here and replace Angel Dust with Sir Pentious in that club scene. It's not so funny anymore, is it? Because the character who's shown multiple times suffering from S/A is going through it again, but this time it's being treated like we're supposed to laugh at him.
I thought it touched on double standards within society. Angel Dust who is seen as more attractive and effeminate was garnered with pity but, Sir Pentious who is not seen as particularly attractive or effeminate has his cries for help unheard. Just like in society where a woman with more power better looks and influence would be given justice but, the average woman is told, “Well what were you wearing?” I think this is an important lesson on how social norms can make someone apathetic.
The thing about Vivien is that she knows how to write decent stories and good characters... But she has NO IDEA how to craft a plot. For those who don't understand what I mean, this is how it was explained to me when I was learning how to write scripts and craft stories. Story: The map. Characters: The Vehicles. Plot: The streets and routes. It's true, she has a good map, well made vehicles... but the routes are not well defined and don't get me started on the streets they go into. As stated here, sexual assault is treated as what it's meant to be: A horrific, cruel, even straight up unnatural act of malice, shown off in one episode... Yet treated as a joke in the other. Thing is, maybe it could have worked if the episodes were swapped around somehow. I do appreciate that Vivien is bringing back 2D animation and showing how mature it can be... But I HATE how she has no real humility about it, plus treating her old cast and crew like disposable objects is not cool. Seriously, why is that a trend now? Look what happened with SMG4, Celeste Notley-Smith being dropped and replaced unfairly and without warning as Tari, a character she voiced since her inception. It's just pathetic. But I digress. I'm always mixed whenever I watch Vivien's stuff, I appreciate the effort. I don't appreciate entirely how she got there, and again, she needs to cop it on the chin when it comes to criticism.
Yeah my problem isn’t that it’s inconsistent, since in a show sometimes inconsistency in jokes can be done well… Like how in Bojack horseman the show and the viewers don’t take seriously that Princess Carolyn is technically dating a child, but you take seriously Sarah Lyn’s implied csa and Penny. My problem is that that in film and comedy sexual assault jokes that are as literal as sir pentious are so normalised. Your criticism is valid though and I wish Vivsiepop would respond better to criticism
At this point I’m just done with vivzi, she is a spoiled child who can’t take criticism to heart. And I gotten into a fight with someone who like that episode. I’m sorry but putting sexulize image of sa is tasteless and people who are victims has a huge problem in that since it handles it poorly. And I find it mind blowing that show shows sa as a joke with the other character it’s like when family guy use domestic violence as a joke and yet when they talk about it in quagmire sister episode it’s all serious. I bet that in a couple of years when the show is done, people will look at the show with new eyes and realize that this show isn’t that good at the start. It will be like Steven universe all over again. At first people love it and now people don’t really talk about it or even care about the show anymore.
@shotalastor9796 Do you make it a habit to embarass yourself? This isn't a fascist flag. It's called the Gadsden flag, and it was used by rebels in the American Revolution to fight for liberty. It was made by Colonel Gadsden, a native of South Carolina, in 1775. This flag is against totalitarian states.
I definitely commend these past videos. They're making good points that I haven't even thought about. I've known Helluva's writing has kinda sucked for a while, but the body image comparison is so true, and makes even less sense when Blitz - a perpetrator - feels offended for Fizz. Even more-so that the contract is the exemplar of a legal forum of consent. Your content seems intelligently made, and I like how your videos are of length appropriate for the discussion, rather than catering to an algorithm.
I don't blame people being annoyed with that joke but the criticism is over blown. Angel Dust's situation was highly specific and had a lot of realistic elements to it- like how Charlie wanted to help but made the situation worse by being careless. also how Husk confronted Angel while he clearly wasn't ready to face his situation was very emotional and interesting. Angel portrays signs of Hypersexuality, which is a pretty taboo reaction to SA since to outsiders it just looks like being promiscuous. People are often very unsympathetic towards survivors who become more sexual after experiencing violence. I've seen multiple survivors commenting how Angel is a good representation of trauma. Survivors might end up seeking out dangerous situations - something we see Angel do btw (the spiked drink scene). Husk and Charlie are very sympathetic characters yet they still misunderstand what kind of support Angel needs at first. The whole Sir Penteous scene however doesn't relate to any kind of real life situation at all. This is why people criticise prison r*pe scenes so harshly because it's real horrible thing that happens yet people just make fun of it. Sir Penteous "I'll have s- with everyone" is just too ridiculous and brief for me to take it too seriously. Each to their own
@@Birdyboys idk what you tought but the scene doesn't even say he was indeed raped, when I saw i just tought he was dragged in and had to run or scream it was a missunderstanding. The joke is not even the rape, is sir pentious awkwardness leading him to get himself in trouble
@@strangedogg5068 A lot of these people aren’t even serious. They’re just morally grandstanding because they don’t like Viv so they’re trying to pretend they’re better than she is.
Wait, I don't get it. Something can be played for laughs while the other can be played for a serious moment. Plus, when Pentious returned, he looked completely fine, unlike that scene with Moxxie.
How about we... not joke about SA? I feel like that should be a rule of thumb. It's not a funny thing, joking about it outside of your messed up friend group is disrespectful, especially when you're trying to make a story that supposedly tackles it seriously.
I had these exact thoughts for a while, why the framing of the show chooses to portray certain “bad” acts as bad and other ok. It’s hell so grape and such is a normal thing, so it shouldn’t be framed as a bad thing (we already kno it is). Cannabilsm is bad but it’s framed as a quirky thing the only reason angel and his abuse is framed in such a way is cause of its close proximity and relatability to the real world and nothing else. The pov of the show is bias. Everything that happens in hell is a result of having bad people cooped up in hell. Angel shouldn’t get to only be portrayed as a victim when he’s in hell for a reason but that’s all ignored cause now this murderer is being abused. The mafia aren’t exactly good people in life and because of his lack of development we don’t understand who he is as a character only his arc and that he’s a victim of his own circumstances. He signed that contract regardless of any and everything and the portrayal of his own actions shouldn’t be twisted. I’d rather the show had a less biased framing of everything tbh. 2:44
I found Helluva Boss when I was WAY too young. I used to ship Huskerdust and Stolitz, but now upon rewatching I see how EFFED these relationships are. Think about it, when harassment and sa is done by a “masculine” man, like Valentino and Chaz, Mammon, it’s seen as this horrible awful thing (which it is) BUT when “feminine” characters do it, such as Angel and Stolas, it’s completely fine? Why? Is it because they have trauma themselves? Does having trauma and being gay equal to being able to go out and harass people? Imagine if these ships were straight. Everyone in this fandom would go MENTAL. But since they’re gay, it’s fine? If you got harassed, does that automatically make it fine for you to harass others as well? Sorry for the rant but like come on, writers.
My main problem with both Hazbin Hotel and Helluva Boss is how in episode 4 of Hazbin Hotel, Vivziepop literally had a sexual assault "artist" have a major part of that episode, Stolas is constantly extremely predatory towards Blitz in Helluva Boss, and both shows basically try to play really predatory behavior and sexual assault off as jokes and have people work on the shows that fetishizes that stuff, I am really disgusted by both series for that
These shows (hazbin hotel and helluva boss) are an example of what "pretty privilege" is... Without the good animation and character design, it would be a total dog shit. Like I could write a book of every single thing wrong with these two shows. It's not normal. Even a toddler could do a better writing, litterally, no joke here.
To be clear I am not a Hazbin Hotel fan, but this criticism feels a little bit unfair. Just because this is so Common. Pop Culture Detective has a whole series about Sexual Assault being played for laughs, and the jokes often come up in dramatic media. SVU is a great example of a show that will casually throw in a rape joke here and there despite it being about the horrors of sex based violence. Not saying this isnt a valid criticism, but its far from unique in American Television.
@ like I said it’s a valid criticism, and I agree the jokes undermine the seriousness of the situation. It’s bad writing to me. But i think this reflects on a larger issue of rape culture in American media. It’s not specific to this show. HH is not unique in this sin. Feel free to dislike every other show that does the same thing.
Hazbin Hotel and Helluva Boss are making kind of weird whenever one character hits the other. On one hand, Loona hits Blitz, but it's more of a joke than anything serious, but when Stella is about to slap Stolas it's implied that she abuses him on a daily basis. Sir Pentious wants to the thing with Cherri Bomb and then decided everyone gets it which again is meant to be a joke. But Angel getting abused by Valentino is way too serious and awful on that impact.😬
Another thing I hate how Stolas is written. I get it he is abused and assaulted by Stella, but did Stella even asked to be married with him in first place? Stolas acts as a victim in here lot of times, but he always gets mad on Blitz that he has to do his own issues instead spending time with him. Blitz had a right to be mad on Stolas, because he believed that Stolas is unkillable and he would dump him like a ragdoll after the death. He believed he was Royal's sex toy to please Stolas so he could work and fix his own issues. Stolas acted like a bitch, because at s1 ep2 Stolas hated Moxxie and Millie saving his ass from assassins. At S2 ep4, vecause Blitz had an apointment to have Loona a rabies shot, Stolas could just call help from royal guards instead. Like wtf he does not have guards thay everyone knows that every celebrity or royals has a bodyguard behind. And Moslty Stella has a right to him be dead. He does not even cares for Octavia in some episodes. He knews that Stella knows about his powers and belongins gonna be for Octavia but he ingores it. Stella never has released any powers, he could just used his powers to show Stella her place how he did to Blitz and D.O.R.K. members. Stolas knows that Octavia is in danger if he dies, but he does NOTHING! He could just expose Stella's ass and call her a bad name. He HAS A FUCKING ROYAL POWER FROM PAIMON. But nope, he choses to bottom and let Stella beat him like he is masochist. Stolas expects that Blitz would gonna beat up Stella instead of him to deal with her. And another thing, Stolas didn't thank Blitz from saving him from assasination. He got pissed and called him selfish freak.
the serpentious scene could've been less of a disaster if there was just a single scene of all the people leaving that room disappointed cause nothing really happened
@@carnage0685 Never been done like that but People make comments calling out the people who refuse to listen to those having issues and praise Viv, theirs is just a new one.
I wish that gag from S1 of Moxxie "being fat" would stay in S2 bc it was gone, and one of gag of when Moxxie was refered as opposum should been more done.
This reminds me of discourse surrounding a scene in bojack horseman. I found this Reddit post “*SPOILERS* Hollyhock is SO against non-consensual drugging butttt… This is bothering me! When Hollyhock first appeared in the show, one of the first things she does when we’re introduced to her character is DRUG Todd via chloroform. However, the entirety of Hollyhock’s storyline for a majority of her time on the show is heavily based on how wrong it was to be unknowingly drugged by Beatrice, and the traumas that came with it. Nothing in this show is done on accident, so I feel like this is SUCH a big plot hole for me! I wish SOMETHING was said about the fact that Hollyhock literally did the same thing. And what Hollyhock did was arguably worse, since she chloroform attacked Todd from behind, which I would imagine is a pretty physically AND mentally taxing ordeal to go through. So please tell me: Did I miss something? Was Hollyhock ever called out for this blatant hypocrisy, even as a joke, throughout this series?! (Ps this is the best show subreddit ever!!!! Thank you for sharing all the Easter eggs you have found- I can’t wait to rewatch the show!)” An explanation I've heard is that it depends on what the show is going to show as serious vs unserious, honestly not sure how I feel about either.
Like with Helluva, Viv wants to touch on tough topics but still be edgy and make jokes that use the same topics as the punchline because that's how that humor goes. She wants to have story driven shows, but has no idea that trying to force it both ways breaks the immersion, which is vital to story shows.
That's not the issue, at least not for me. It's more about the inconsistent writing and how the show itself wants you to take certain scenes seriously while then using similar themes for a laugh in a.. less than tasteful manner. I like how fucked up everyone is personally, Charlie should be shit at befriending and talking to ppl cuz shes sheltered, Vaggie should be a dick towards ppl cuz she was killing them indiscriminately, Angel Dust shouldn't be aware of boundaries and when to stop, Husk should be an alcoholic asshole and Alastor should be.. well, you get the point. The writing just doesn't make it clear that their flaws are.. well, flaws half the time. Double and Triple standards for every other character depending on the scene, it makes it a bit confusing to understand. Still enjoyable though, I had fun with it
I’m so fucking stupid. I legitimately did not even realize that Sir was being sexually assaulted… or even having sex. I legit thought he got dragged in and then popped right back out. Or even watched in horror for a moment or two and then… popped back out. Hear me out… when Sir Pentious first asks Cherry Bomb to join him, she says no because “I’m heading out” and starts to head out. Sir Pentious is dragged into the room after proffering to have sex with EVERYONE (consent is revocable, that is not up for debate), and then when he pops back out (in what I thought was only moments later), Cherry is still exiting the club. My stupid ass thought it was a “fish out of water” joke and not a sexual assault joke. Was I the only one? I can’t be the only (fully adult) person who missed that?
don't worry ur not the only one!! And that also doesn't make you stupid :(( I had the same thought too, that he saw that they were serious about it and had to hastily explain that he didn't actually mean it and leave to get back to Cherri asap ,,,i also figured that he had that "fish out of water" experience since he's like a. Repressed victorian conservative???? So he might not be used to seeing MULTIPLE people 'doing a sex' so enthusiastically right in front of his face lmao I might be on copium here, but yea, I didn't really think it was ACTUALLY a implied sexual assault joke until I looked back on it and analyzed it🥲 Well if that's the case maybe we're both stupid???? Hehe.
The only time I can think treating it as both a joke and serious in the same series is if they flipped it. Treat it as a small joke first, then later on show the serious effect it has had on that character. It could be a decent commentary on how a lot of the time in real life, a lot of people don't treat it as seriously as it really is if it wasn't outright 🍇 or extremely violent. Even then, though, it'd still be very, very difficult to pull off in a tasteful manner.
There are stories where everyone involved is morally gray or the main characters don't behave heroically and let bad things happen to those around them. Maybe they're jaded, maybe they're not meant to be seen as good people. But! This requires a specific kind of narrative framing that implies the writer understands that the moral of the story is therefore that this world is unfair and the injustice they are personally enduring is only one of many tragedies happening to everyone all the time. They must understand that their OWN actions reflect the actions of others. This is the exact kind of framing I expected from a story about Hell but weirdly.... Vivzie does not appear to frame her characters that way. Its always childishly simplistic-- THIS is the one you feel sorry for today and everything they do wrong is a product of sympathetic trauma, and THIS is the one that's evil and bad and mean. Its almost like you can sense it floating above their heads like markers, and everyone else is free game to abuse and kill and torture unless they just happen to have the "victim" card in hand. When they're hurt its funny, when this one is hurt they cry on screen for 5 full minutes. Vivzie is not willing to acknowledge in her own characters that they watched sir pentious be dragged away and didn't help him. Nor is she willing to frame the widespread willingness to force a man to have sex in a bar CALLED Consent to be reflective of the same culture that nearly got Angel Dust drugged and is therefore a part of the same narrative theme. Characters who SHOULD understand the severe ramifications of sexual assault on someone's body and mind, people who should care about him, or their own principles, enough to step in and intervene decide to simply do nothing as something the audience has already been primed to understand as tragic is actively happening to an extreme degree. But you are not supposed to see that as a real flaw they authentically have. It was nothing more than a shallow joke that undermines the existing personalities of already established characters AND severely undermines the scene that follows it where we are supposed to suddenly seriously care if one main character stands up to another for the exact same thematic injustice. The characters in a scene should not behave as though they are aware some moments are more important than others without justifying it in universe in the minds of the characters. The characters do not KNOW they are in a story where some scenes are jokes and some aren't. So if they see injustice they must behave /consistently/ to their principle no matter the tone of the scene in order to be well written characters. It would not be impossible to keep the joke but simply have a character, perhaps angel dust himself, protect sir pentious in some silly, panicked way as a subtle reflection of how he was protected by Husk. Maybe he makes a joke that makes it seem like sir pentious would be unpleasant to have sex with in some way, embarrassing him further but saving him from the assault. Both a joke but a meaningful and consistent characterization that avoids confusing the themes of your narrative. And no, having pentious unrealistically brush it off as if unfazed by it does not fix the problem, if anything it cheapens previous serious depictions of assault by implying that the victim was merely overreacting.
And you didnt even mention the fact that Sir Pentious sexually assaulted Cherrybomb when he agressively kissed her without her consent. And Cherrry and the Community approve of this action vehemently. The same community rips any guy a new one if he would try that in real life. Hypocrisy. Yes. But I still liked it and wished for Pentious and CHerry to work out some day. Its weird. But thats the human condition. We are very selective and hypocritical beeings. But the biggest double standart in the show is the Exterminations. They are portrayed as bad and evil. But if you think about it more, its actually the opposite. Hell is shitty for like 99.99% of sinners. Everybody suffers and is miserable. And its getting overpopulated FAST. Meaning that the situation becomes worse and worse and the overlords become more and more powerfull while the structures they create are mere impossible to break when they have tens of thousands of sinners under their wing. Until the Exterminators arrive and relief all those suffering souls from their constant agony and destroying the overlords grip on the place. Meanwhile the remaining sinners get more room to breathe and a shift in power. And what happens when hell is overpopulated and cannot menage itself anymore? then its sinners will attack heaven, to conquer it and make it this horrible place too. (spoiler for Ep8) meanwhile Adam is literally the first man who to ever have been betrayed and cheated on by TWO women, while his two sons are murderers. the man is a shell of himself so how are we to expect anything than hatred towards sinners? And in the end he smiled in death, knowing that Lute stayed by his side till the end. Maybe the first woman to ever do so .... He was strawmanned to be the big bad but he is actually the hero nobody wants but everybody needs. So even though Vivzie portrayed the Exterminators and Adam as horrible people, she actually totally glossed over the fact that the exterminations are a good measure, a merciful relief and probably the easiest solution for the predicament hell and heaven are in. I hope she realises this herself and puts some light onto that.
At this point, anything is sexual assault. First off, he was basically sacrificing his life and wanted to kiss the girl he loved before doing so. We have seen many scenes like this in fiction it's not like pentious stripped her or anything, secondly, cherri actually enjoyed it, it's not that deep.
@@ZorelexKelpnix yeah you are right. Kissing somebody without their consent is sexual assault *period* There is no „oh this is now sexual assault all of a sudden?!“ kind of narrative. There is socially accepted sexual assault and not accepted sexual assault. I’m not trying to open a new field of battle here because this is already well known stuff. The only factor that we value about it is if we sympathise with the assaulter, or not. It’s that simple. If nothing about that scene would be changed besides Pentious still beeing the same patronising asshole he was at the start, we would judge him completely differently than we do now.
For the second part of your comment, it is not that simple. Yes hell is full of bad people, but there are a bunch of opaqueness to that that makes the exterminations less just. For example, if you've seen Helluva Boss Ep. Murder Family, you can see a good person that killed her husband BECAUSE HE CHEATED ON HER. That was her only major sin in life and yet she still went to hell for that. This is why Charlie said in Welcome to Heaven "The rules are shades of gray", because like perhaps Sir Pentious in life never had bad intentions but was forced to make bombs for the World War. Which is probably one of the reasons why he was able to get redeemed in ep 8. And that is exactly why the exterminations aren't that justified. And that's also why Charlie believes in redemption. Most of hell are jerks, but the some that are not is perhaps why the exterminations were portrayed as bad.
I personally don’t really give a shit about jokes about sexual assault, but when your story goes into an explicit and serious portrayal of it that kind of humor should be closed off to you.
I agree. I believe you can make jokes on literally any subject if you know WHEN and WHERE is the perfect time to make it. Like the guy mentioned in his vid, you can't treat SA (or the implication of it) happening to a character as a joke if you also want to take it seriously if it happens to another character.
![Disturbing Things from Around the Internet [Vol. 14]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/XVuIMocTciY/mqdefault.jpg)
Same happens in Helluva Boss. The fact that Stella hits Stolas is portrayed as tragic and horrible and yet when Loona literally physically assaults Blitzo multiple times is treated as a joke.
I noticed that there’s a lot of instances of similar weird moments with things being laughed at and things that are supposed to be series.
First of all, I think you got the Luna and blitz wrong. Luna never actually goes out and assaults blitz. She never goes out of her way to hit him in assault him ever. Stella does go out of her way to an abuse Stolas
@@gerbera3696 how would Octavia know what abuse victim is and she literally a child and probably didn’t understand and I’m sure they weren’t as loud as bickering as they are in the present
@@XzavierRosaloona kicked blitzo in the balls when he was literally apologizing for saying he'd replace her, which I remind you, was encouraged by moxxie in the first place to get blitzo to actually call out loona's behavior and stand his ground. Being encouraged to call someone out and stand your ground is shit that is often only something that happens when said person is actively being hurt by not doing so.
There are other ways to show loona not wanting blitzo to give her physical affection without having her fucking assault him. Plus, loona has a strength and size advantage over literally the entire i.m.p. company, and she clearly would have known it after like the 3rd time hurting them, there's not knowing your own strength and then there's actively using your strength to hurt people you don't like. It'd be like saying a kid pushing over their parent who is in a wheelchair isn't as bad as a partner doing the same thing to their disabled partner, they're equally as bad and one abuse shouldn't be considered more ok than the other because one happens less often, abuse is abuse, period.
@@cyanity1017 first, I wasn’t even talking about any of that. second assault isn’t just one thing it can be multiple things and people hit their friends. All the time doesn’t count as assault and over the years Luna has clearly demonstrated that she doesn’t like being touched and she’s rude and mean and not Doesn’t show her love for people, On the outside, but on the inside, she loves him very much now. Let me clarify do I think Luna should be hitting blitz? No I don’t but you can’t just label assault on something that’s not how it works and if you think that you’re basically saying if I hit my friend playfully, it counts as assault
Fans when Stolas uses Blitz for s3x: 😁🤣😊🤡✅
Fans when Verosika SA’s Moxxie, who is a *married* man: 😁🤣😊🤡✅
Fans when Sir Pentious gets SA’d despite screaming ‘No!’ multiple times: 😁🤣😊🤡✅
Fans when Valentino abuses Angel: 😭😡😤😖❌
Moral Scapegoating at its best.
me during all of that 😐"god this writing is awful"
This comment aged well after i dug deeper on the SA stuff on HH and vivs team
12/6/24
There was one time I had to skip most of an episode, you can guess when that was, the subject wasn't something I could delve into calmly. There was also one "joke" that made me cringe before then wanting to slam my head into the phone I watched the show on. Sir Pentious and his Egg bois are my favorite characters, did she really have to do him dirty like that? Only thing that hurts worse? The next scene is Angel trying to keep Val away from Nifty so . . . yeah, one HELL of a tonal shift, eh?
It's interesting that people forget that it was Blitzo that used Stolas for sex first. He fucked him with the intention of stealing the book from him. Stolas then used the book as a transaction to continue having sex with Blitzo because the dumb Imp was the only good point in his childhood (which is just sad when you remember that that too was a scam on Blitzo's side).
No one can justify this by claiming sir Pentious gave consent. He was screaming and resisting going into the room. He did not give consent. At very best, he strongly withdrew consent, which is valid to do at any time during intimacy, and if the other person refuses to stop, it becomes assault.
It’s a black comedy for adults.
@@GothWolfRants…and???? If there was a show that promoted terrorism, would it be okay because it’s an adult movie?
No. There’s a difference between adult themes and immoral ones.
@@GothWolfRants you must have a very messed up sense of humor if you think what pentious went through was "funny dark humor"
@@talonsandtails501 Well who appointed YOU the arbiter of what is or isn’t acceptable for dark humor? You don’t get to make those calls so get over yourself.
@@GothWolfRants love how you are still salty about a TH-cam comment two weeks later
This is why I can't take Viv seriously as a writer. You can't have it both ways. You show us sexual assault and abuse are either treated seriously or not.
To be fair I’ve made some racist jokes with my friends before and we all find it funny, but I would never support actual racism. You absolutely can make jokes about a dark subject in one scene and still treat it as a serious matter in another.
She does whatever she wants and demands you go along with it.
@@tinkeroniYeah but you aren’t a show with a world that is supposed to be internally consistent.
Honestly she should just let the other writes do the writing 💀
Actually you can do both South Park has done it
Viv doesnt seem to understand (or care) what Morality even is.
Her interpretation of "morality" seems to boil down to *"If I like this character that makes them good - if I want you to hate this character that makes them bad"*
That's why my Pookie Adam got shafted 😔🙏
If Viziepoop was a half competent writer she would have killed off the main bad guy less fast
@@JermaineFrazier-f7h Ikr, Adam is a better person than Alastor, and Alastor is supposed to be more likable. "b-b-b-But he commits reaccuring genocide on "Innocent" souls!" Innocent my ass, 99% of all helldwellers are filled to the brim with people worse than him in every aspect imaginable, if we are taking the humanity and its history seriously (which according to show's messaging we are supposed to). We are talking child molestors, backstabbers, schemers, genociders, maniacs and murderers very often all in one. Charlie: "These sinners are mUh famaleE." Yeah, but we gotta hate Adam cause what, he has an ego and is a dom in a relationship?
@@JermaineFrazier-f7h Its clear that you have the mentality of a 2 year old child. Vivziepop is a competent writer. You just lack any comprehension of what good writing is.
That's never how morality in Hazbin Hotel has been portrayed.
@@trueomen5017 Wow you really didn't watch the series at all. One the Sinners that Charlie in particular was protecting clearly did none of that besides Alastor. And Alastor is never portrayed as a good guy. Adam isn't killing Sinners because of morality but because he just enjoys killing by his own admission.
No joke.
But Vivziepop liked a post calling the second r/pe scene “the best joke in the show” which goes to show how little care was actually put into the representation that it would be taken seriously one way and then not the next.
Of course she would do that.
Yup… that’s Vivziepop for ya. 😔
Vivziepop also made art that sexualizes damian who’s only 16 years old. It’s the one with Styx.
@@mrs.sandman.9166I'm not sure what or who Styx is or that artwork but I already can see it.
@@mrs.sandman.9166 I saw it. Styx is meant to be a 42 year old man who is Damian's CARETAKER.
Actually i expected that, i mean in helluva boss literally every "villain act" of mammon against fizz are the same acts that blitz comited against moxxie, the difference is that blitz acts are "comedic moments" but mammon acts are meant to be taken seriously, so something like that was also going to happen in hazbin hotel, so, not a big surprise
Didn't i make like a comment of moxie needs a villain arc? i just need to remember if i did
@@hybridvenom9 no, plis do it
Yeah but one is serious and the other is not.
now that you mention it... when Loona jokes about Moxxie being "fat" (wich he's not) nobody cares, but when Mammon tells Fizz to watch his weight everyone gets angry??
Comparing Fizz & Mammon to Blitzo & Moxxie is kinda crazy but alright
Not only Sir pentious, it's husk too, angel quite literally pushed his boundaries too far even when husk had explicitally told him no and then they pretend that never happend which is so ANNOYING.
Yeah bro I know but it’s fine right cause he’s gay he gets a pass the double standards go crazy even Moxxie too in helluva boss, hey isn’t it a bit strange both Sir Pentious and Moxxie being straight as far as I can tell were played off as a joke when they got technically sexually assaulted hmmm fishy.
i bet its cuz we are supposed to ship them lol
they get one normal interaction n we are supposed to root for them as if angel didnt harass husk 5 minutes prior
This! It's disturbing. Like Husk literally got sexually assaulted by Angel but then Husk turns around and acts like it never happened? Angel also threw a piece of glass that almost hit Husk's head. I get that Husk felt sympathy for him and wants to help Angel though but c'mon. Angel being abused doesn't excuse his actions towards Husk or the others. It's toxic. Husk really is gonna sit here and act like it's fine. Like imagine remembering meeting your partner like that. Like, "Oh yeah, remember when you threw that piece of glass at me cause I rejected you?". I thought Husk was smarter than that.🤔
The show has Angel Dust EXPLICITLY TELL US that he does that as part of his unhealthy coping mechanism for dealing with the trauma he suffers as Val’s beaten, abused sex slave, and he stops doing it once he and Husk bond over their shared bad situation. You people are either complete idiots or you’re a bunch of bad faith concern trolls trashing Viv’s work because you don’t like her personally but you can’t criticize her honestly.
@coco-thenoodleslurper Sir Pentious and Moxie are not straight. Moxie is bi-sexual and Sir Pentious is pansexual I don't were you got that information from
DUDE THIS IS WHAT I'VE BEEN SAYING. The same thing that happened to sir pentious, happened to Moxxie in Helluva Boss, where he was sexually assaulted by several people and it was played up for laughs.
@@GLITZNGOR3 They were literal sex demons and it WAS funny to anybody who isn’t a fragile little princess.
@@GLITZNGOR3 They were literal sex demons and it was funny who isn’t an emotional infant.
@@GLITZNGOR3 That because it was funny to emotionally mature adults.
@@GothWolfRants What's funny about sexual assault? It's like the show is struggling to decide whether it wants to treat it as a serious matter or play it up for laughs.
@@campcampcamp It’s played for comedy with Moxxie. I keep seeing 1diots pretending to not understand that the way a scene is supposed to be interpreted depends upon the context of the scene. That is NOT hypocrisy and if you think it is, that’s because you don’t know what it means.
Also, in Season 2 - Episode 1 of Helluva Boss, Stella tries to hit Stolas and it's implied that she did hit Stolas other times, and it's supposed to be potrayed as bad. But in the next episode, Loona abuses and kicks Blitzo in the nuts for no reason at all expect for the fact that he cares for her and trues his best and it's potrayed as "Loona being a total girlboss" and a "funny" joke
That’s why I hate Loona more than Stella
Not to mention there’s little to nothing to explain what happened between Loona warmly calling Blitzo “Dad” (Season 1 Episode 8) and the events of Episode 2, Season Two
@@jeremiahwalker3795I freakin agree
maybe Stella was right about Stolas being pathetic, I'm not excusing her actions but if a powerful demonic entity prince who has no problem going full on "The Exorcist" on a lady let's their own wife whose brother isn't even higher than him treats him the way she does...maybe just maybe he MIGHT deserves it, if I were Stolas I would've put Stella in her place and remind her that she's dealing with a powerful demon prince
@@mancave10369 So you didn't watch the show. Loona is constantly called out on her toxic & rude behaviour in the show.
This is something basic that learned as a writer at the age of 14. Before going to high school, I had a messed up writing style and sense of humor. Nothing was really off the table (except for child rape, thats fucking disgusting), rape, murder, children dying, you name it. I had severe issues and trauma and writing was a way to cope with it. I would write tragedies for the sake of being tragic, or extreme violence for the sake of being violent.
Once I hit freshman year, I realized that I couldn't have jokes about rape and talk about it in a meaningful way. That and rape or sexual assault, in general, is a horrible thing to joke about. It was beyond distasteful, and I wanted my writing to be better than just crude jokes. So I ditched the dark humor, and my writing has gotten better ever since.
So, as a small, independent writer out there, you *can't* have it both ways. And the fact that Viv has an official show with the same kind of humor I had as a messed up, hormonal, and disturbed teenager is disheartening.
I can joke about everything, but it must be funny
@yalovoyhznepomny True, but if you're telling jokes to an audience outside you and your friend group, the rule of comedy is that not everyone will like the joke. You also have to consider the context and delivery of the joke. Not everyone likes rape jokes, and doing a joke when the topic is being covered seriously will seem distasteful to some, myself included. That's my whole point.
@@shlingusdingus4174 Yes, but I don't see in this show any hypocritical points in 4 episode
It feels like Viv never mentally grew past the edgy, teen, highschooler, mindset.
@@yalovoyhznepomny if Sir Pentious really did get raped as a jokey way, it’s kind of hypocritical. Sorta like “okay so if it’s funny then why should I care about Angel Dust’s situation”, if that makes sense
it’s like how angel constantly se*ually harasses husky and it’s deemed as okay, now imagine if he was a masculine man hitting on a girl
Yeah, if Husk was a woman, even with the same build and personality, people would be talking shit about it. The standards have been doubled once more..
SPOILERS FOR EPISODE 8
i never see this brought up and it absolutely deserves to be. pentious is my favorite character and a huge comfort to me and this scene has never sat right with me. it makes me so sad to see this kind of this played off as a joke. really it sucks to see pentious treated as a joke in general, bc i feel like his death was treated as a joke as well. it happens so suddenly and doesn’t seem major until you see how the others react and then all of a sudden it’s a big deal. literally what do they expect you to think?? “oh haha he just died- OH NO HE JUST DIED :(((“ like?? idk it felt rlly weird to me??
It definitely could have been handled better! Sir Pent had the best arc in the show, and I've seen people DESPISE the show, but still love his character. The writers had to be aware they were onto something which is why they kept him for the ride. Seeing him treated as a joke at the beginning made sense, as he was a bumbling "villain" we've seen a million times over, but by the time the last episode comes around, while he's still funny, he's now changed both in the show and as perceived by the audience. We really didn't still see him the same way (like we're also not supposed to see Angel as only a foul-mouthed s*x addict at this point) and that's why the "joke" of his death felt off. I do think using him as the first to ascend is appropriate, and killing him was good contextually, but the way it was handled was rough as ... uh, hell lol
Seriously. What was even the point of hyping that scene up like he was going to defeat Adam or at least anyone if they’re going to kill him off a second later?
Sir Pentious started off and ended as a pathetic joke.
It’s a shame too, because he had a pretty decent arc and was genuinely funny up until that point.
I HATE HOW THEY BRUSHED HIM TO THE SIDE GRHGHSGHJSKAS
And then he goes to Heaven as the first redeemed soul. HELLO??
@@GothWolfRants the characters in the show doesn't know he's in heaven. HELLO????
I had to pause the episode when the Sir Pentious joke came up, and this was my exact thoughts.. how are you going to show how serious it is, but then make light and joke about it RIGHT after??
Me too, I was so shocked
Same. That was honestly the weirdest part of the episode. One part Sir pentious being dragged into a sex room is supposed to be comedic while at the literal minute AFTER that we have Angel standing up to Valentino in the same time on the same subject
The scene would have been funnier if someone whistled and then awkward silence after ?🧐
It would’ve been better if he half-transformed into his full demon form to ward them off before they dragged him away.
Because they’re two completely different situations that have absolutely nothing to do with each other and have absolutely no common elements between them in any way whatsoever.
I feel vivziepop has a "George Lucas Problem" they both have great ideas, but they can't execute it well. They both need people to help flesh out their ideas or filter them out.
I agree...but how does one get out of that hole?
@Lazy722 Well, I said it in the comment that she needs someone or more to filter and flesh out her ideas.
Basically, the difference between the og star wars trilogy and the prequels is that, by the time they were made, there was no one left willing to critisize his writing considering how legendary his career had been to that point. I feel like the massive success of the hazbin pilot and the initial success of helluva has lead to something similar with Viv.@Lazy722
@@Crow12619 Sooo- They got on their high horse way too far up their you know what?
@@number1starscreamstan yeah pretty much
finally SOMEONE TALKS ABOUT THAT SCENE!!! PENTIOUS LITERALLY GETS DRAGGED AWAY AND WE HAVE NO IDEA WHAT HAPPENS TO HIM IN THERE!!! (besides the context clues..)
@@KrayKrayKrill And it’s hilarious because it’s a ridiculous situation played for laughs. Emotionally mature adults enjoyed it.
@@GothWolfRants it can be enjoyed sure, but its very contradictory to how the serious topic of SA is handled! You have to pick one because it effects real people, this can also be done with murder and death to have consistency ^_^ and maybe emotionally mature adults shouldn't be scrolling through comments of a 3 month old video because theyre upset someone has a different opinion?
@@KrayKrayKrill I’m really sick of people claiming you can only do one or the other. No, that’s not how it works.
@@GothWolfRants it is a serious topic that happens to real people. (or CAN be serious)
What’s funny about SA
Me and my cousin were talking bout this 3 weeks near ish ago that its " POOR ANGEL, HE DESERVES BETTER!" vs "haha sir pentious sex assaulted🤣"
In fact, this double standards concerning sexual assault was kind of foreshadowed in Helluva Boss.
Do you remember that scene when Moxxie enters a room with succubi and incubi and gets assaulted and it's treated as joke. He literally says :
" Hey, don't touch that!
- Moxxie, don't let her access to any of your holes!"
We should've paid more attention to this "joke".
Yes, it wasn't sexual assault, but let's be honest it could have been one if Moxie didn't escaped.
And we could also talk about Stolas (who is gay) who obviously had sex with Stella...
Or his obvious toxic relationship with Blitzo, using a power dynamic to have sex daily with him (and being gay doesn't make him innocent!)
If I'm honest, I think VivziePop is using such a heavy topic as abuse (in general) just because she likes it's "aesthetic"...
It's been rumored that viv was SA'ed, as I don't think she will treat abuse like a joke. (I think she writes abuse because that's her coping mechanism). If she did get SA'ed, then shit that's horrible as hell.
@@DrAngelKins
I wouldn't go as far as saying it's a "coping mechanism".
Some scenes are clearly assault scenes (like that one I've mentioned with Moxxie) but they are treated as a joke, like it wasn't a big deal because it "didn't happened" it was "just an attempt".
I want to offend nobody with what I'm going to say here.
Maybe she was actually sexually assaulted, and that's truly awful if that's the case.
But writing litteral attempts of rape and sexual harassment as jokes (you're supposed to laugh at these scenes) in a show landed on a very mainstream plateform that a lot of people (including other victims of these crimes) watch, it's showing disrespect towards other victims of abuse.
It's like telling them "It's no big deal! It was just an attempt!" which might trigger them.
I do believe that, whether that rumor is true or not, she and her writing team should pay more attention with how they handle such a heavy subject.
When the episode 4 landed on Amazon Prime there was no content warning about the depiction of violent sexual assault scenes.
People (and by that I mean victims of former victims) had to complain about the lack of content warning to add one.
And when this behaviour could be seen as "clumsy" at best, let's not forget that she hired someone with a rape fetish (and who's vocal about it) to work one the sexual assault scene of this same episode.
Here, I don't think it's forgivable, wether she's a former victim or not.
But even if we admit this rumor is true, she's not alone!
When you want to write a story involving sexual assault you make sure to offend as least people as possible.
But here, you have attempts treated as jokes, an episode with no content warning about it's depiction of a violent gang rape, which someone who sees it as a kink worked on.
And in that same episode this victim we saw being abused is called a loser.
I think that's a lot to excuse with just "coping mechanism", especially when you see all the backlash that followed.
Not everyone deals with their trauma the same way, that's why it's called a heavy subject, it's difficult (to not say impossible) to offend nobody when you choose to talk about them.
But in that case, I think a lot of things could've been avoided, especially if Vivienne was indeed sexually assaulted.
Especially this content warning thing.
That's why I'm having a doubt on that rumor (which by now is just a rumor) and frankly believe she just likes to show sexual scenes between men only.
@@DrAngelKinsI’ve been seeing some people say that Stolas SA’d Blitz do you agree with that?
Yeah, I feel like people don't even pay attention to the fact that blitzo and stolas's relationship is literally just angel dust and Valentino under rose tinted glasses.
-stronger character puts weaker character into sex related deal so weaker Chara can keep doing job
-relationship is based on force and constant sex
-weaker character very clearly doesn't like the fact they keep doing sex but has to pretend they want it
-stronger character EXPECTS sex for the smallest things.
Hell, even the first time blitzo and stolas "do the sex" it's not even consentual sex, it's pity sex on blitzo's side. Stolas could have easily just went through with divorcing Stella after he got caught the first time, just made a small deal with blitzo where he has to give back the book to stolas when it's needed, and that'd be fine, but stolas chose to include sex in the deal, and did it at a time where blitzo was actively in danger and didn't have time to think through the deal, and it's not like he didn't hear what was happening because if he heard blitzo's tone and loud fucking gunshots in the background he should have just backed off to talk about the deal later.
They both took advantage of the other when said other was in a desperate time and had no choice in the deal. You can't even use the excuse of "oh stolas didn't know blitzo didn't care about fucking him and only wanted the book" because he literally saw blitzo run off with the book the first time, he clearly fucking knows.
@@cyanity1017 But Stolas isn’t like Valentino because he acknowledged what he did to Blitz was wrong.
Vivziepop is NO stranger with using double standards. Another one she blantantly uses is one with Stella and loona.
Stella obviously suffered karma for emotionally abusing stolas via divorce.
If loona has suffered any karma for physically abusing blitzo then her confirmed 21 year old ass would've gotten kicked out the house and into the streets.
Well Loona gets the "Childhood trauma" defense, and the fact Blitz is clearly too attached/protective of her to let her go.
@@alyssabullock6421 Wow. So no matter what kind or how bad of abuse bully loona condones your gonna keep justifying it just because of trauma?
Psycho cat literally kicking the genitals that tries to be an good dad, got you out of literal prison and still cares for you despite your ADULT age is PURE SPITE not an fucking excuse.
You loona defenders really do disgust me at this point.
@@alyssabullock6421 Wow. So no matter what kind or how bad of abuse bully loona condones your gonna keep justifying it just because of trauma?
Psycho cat literally kicking the genitals that tries to be an good dad, got you out of literal prison and still cares for you despite your nasty attitude and ADULT age is PURE SPITE.
You loona defenders really do disgust me at this point...
The sad thing is that Loona is actually lucky to have a father like Blitzo in contrast to other worsely treated hellhounds in Hell.
Stella is treated seriously, Loona is slapstick comedy. You’d probably break down sobbing at Animaniacs cartoons where they hit people with mallets.
Thank you for finally adressing this. This is what made me give up hope for Hazbin- the double standards and tone shifts from the SA of Angel to Pentious getting dragged to be unconsensually assulted. Like... what??? What is this writing? Why is one okay and hahha but the other is so sad?
They making it a balance between treating it as a serious matter and treating it as a joke 💀
I think you misunderstood the controversy around episode 4:
-people understood the intent of the scene, showcasing Angel dust’s trauma and abuse. The problem was that it was handled terribly and felt incredibly tactless. Many victims still finding the music video deeply offensive.
-the person who storyboarded the scene was someone who shipped angelval and called it their “rape ship” (and in fact had ANOTHER music video where we see Angel dust getting raped on screen).
-Vivzie also made a sex joke hyping up the music video that features sexual assault
-the episode references said storyboarder’s comic where Angel dust was about to be raped by Vox and Valentino.
Also. People still criticize this episode and song. It didn’t exactly “die down”. A lot of survivors were just sick of dealing with fans screaming “media illiteracy” at them.
What’s your source for the storyboarder’s shipping?
@@LlamasAreFluffyfor some reason youtube keeps hiding my comment? The storyboarder is named r2ninjaturtle
I still don't fully understand what's so tactless about it, when it's so similar to what was shown in the addict music video, I'm definitely missing something since so many people who have (for a lack of a better term) credibility on a topic like this are upset.
One of the problems with being a fan of something is that you become to blind to the irredeemable flaws of a poorly written show. At this point, simply being a fan of poorly written shows is about as bad as robbing a homeless person; what's worse is that there people who have the audacity to still give these worms the benefit of the doubt, when we live in a world where we simply cannot do that anymore. Too much betrayal comes from giving people the benefit of the doubt.
@@Trident_Gaming03The Addict music video was also tactless but at least some could blank that part of the video. I agree with birdboy on this, even if the storyboarder or Vivzie didn't say any of that and never intended the episode to come off that way, it still came out as it did. That's the biggest issue right there.
Honestly, it would have been funny if the joke was similar to the 'sir pentious offering to buy a drink' joke, where everyone just cheers or laughs in unison instead instead of making it into SA.
there shouldve been an awkard silence instead. it shouldve been a "rule of three" tho where before he said the sex thing he said something else that made people cheer
@duckduckguse I feel like they start cheering when he begins speaking but then fall completely silent when he says sex. I honestly feel like that would’ve actually been a much funnier joke.
Viv's fans literally harassed poor lavendertowne for not researching outside the show when she's a casual viewer...
I think if you have time research outside the show then the writing isn't good.
I personally as a victim didn't like angel dust's song, I don't like how angel as a victim isnt shown properly. Is he scared of val, who's openly evil and does he wanna be free? Or is he in love/lust but also hurt by a tricky abuser.
He is scared by the abuse, the only thing "tying" him to the rapist is a contract.
Imagine you were bound to be a slave, have you been? No, well, Angel is not just a usual victim.
@@dargunsh7156 hey pal, I have a friend who was sold into real slavery, ya know the child marrige kind and even in the eyes of someone that was a slave, Angel's character makes no sense even to someone who was in the same if not worse position then angel.
But also looooove you're trying to invalidate me as a victim of repeatedly sexual abuse, emotional, and physical abuse that I faced for years.
very viv fan of you.
exactly. If your audience has to do _homework_ to understand the overabundant details you put in your story, you've failed as a writer. A casual viewer isn't gonna know about the expansive wiki pages or care enough to watch hour long livestreams, like PUT IT IN THE ACTUAL SHOW. Getting mad at people for not knowing about every single detail you put into your characters is just stupid tbh.
Yeah, they we'ren't really clear on that. He seems to be used to the abuse but also flaunts it. I find it weird how.. they try and make Val comedic? Therefore taking away any intimidation factor he's supposed to have?
@@dargunsh7156 _The strongest Viv meat rider_
@@paradoxtatorstudios9681 yeah the making the abusive r-pist the comedic relief of the three bad guys is.... VERY confusing like story energy wise...
Have a actual serious scene about SA ?
Viv : Nah i'd make a song about it
The big problem with that scene is also that it was not really that funny or clever so I wrote this little dialogue. It's about a rewrite where Pentious is taken outback, but the sinners took him there only to tell him to be more confident and go get Cherri and stop this embarrassing charade where he keeps doing something dumb. Sinners are done telling Pentious about how he needs to man up and get the girl he wants and stop acting like this and Pentious then goes:
Pentious: You are all so nice... Why are you all in Hell?
One buff Sinner looking like a bull: One day was angry... Stumbled on annoying kid, punched that one 'til them stopped movin'. Got send to jail a bit la'er. Got the chair. Uncomfortable piece of junk.
Another, female dog looking one one: Jumped one guy, rode him, got him hooked up on stuff before. Guy was traumatized, think he offed themself later. Not before they did me in.
Another one, small looking like a purple shadow of a man with horns: Burned a house to the ground after trying to steal from it. Bunch of people burned. Dead. Got boozed afterwards and got hit by car.
Bull from the start: We all did our share to be 'ere. But not enough for it to be all that we is. We did enough to get why we 'ere... an enough to regret.
silence falls over the room
Female Sinner: 'Tis what this place is for. Consent. It for sinners who did wrong and want to not do wrong no more. We all regret, we all have to live with it. We all want to fix it...
Shadow Demon: We got all eternity for it. And you too. If you do not get it with this Cyclop gal so what? Another good one is bound to fall here sooner or later. That's how this place works.
Pentious: I... I did a lot of wrong... I remember.
Do I deserve something better?
Bull Demon: Who knows? What do you think? You think you deserve it?
Pentious: ...
Bull Demon: Don't answer. Go out there and find out champ.
Bull places his hand firmly on Pentious's shoulder and pushes him out the door
I think this would nicely humanize people of hell and make them feel more real. Show us some who while are awful people who did something terrible in life they are not defined by their sins. I think we need more of that in the show. And I think overall this would be a funny subversion. You think that kind of thing will happen, but then you get this twist. I think it would be funny and heartfelt.
I LOVE your rewrite! ~ ☆❤☆❤☆❤ It has layers and nuance to it as random background characters get to interact with a main character while we also get to learn about them, so that we don't fatigued by just hanging around the main characters all the time. Your comment reminds me of "The Brave Little Toaster" especially in the Junkyard scene where we got to learn about the lives of the doomed junk cars at the end of their roads before they are literally DESTROYED! ~ :D Also, I love what you said about "Humanizing" these sinners. Hazbin Hotel's original premise was supposed to be about Charlie rehabilitating sinners (Which it still did with WIP Angel Dust & the actually dead, gone, but Heavenly redeemed Sir Pentious! ~ :D I just wish we had some episodes, say about a good 7 episodes just focusing on random non-main character demons checking into the Hotel, Charlie working them through their problems, listening to them, learning and empathizing with them, discouraging them from their past sinful habits & history, being lovingly assertive when she has to in order to put them on the path to redemption. Not everyone in Hell is an absolute Monster, some are just genuinely decent individuals who sometimes end up there due to uncontrollable circumstances or by someone else! ~ :O
@@violetthebat8810 I wish redemption was more elaborated upon as to what it means. Because to me it being just "being nice" is a bit too simple and not satisfying as by far I would prefer if it was more about recognizing one's own sins and who they hurt, regretting and wanting to atone and striving to make them right and in the end finding forgiveness not just from others, but themselves for it, as they strive for redemption, recognizing that they are worthy of salvation. Something of that nature which makes Sinners challenged by their own sins that they have to face to go forward.
Which leads me to my fears about Angel Dust specifically because I feel like his conflict will be just about "Oh his dad is le h*mophobic and so is his brother" and in fact Angel is mostly innocent and his greatest sins are doing drugs, dancing in clubs and being into man. I would be very disappointed if that was all there was to Angel's sins as this would be honestly very disappointing. As I would like if despite his very terrible circumstances he was still shown as a very flawed and awful individual who in some capacity DESERVES Hell. Someone who may have hurt a lot of people not just as a gangster, but just as a person too. Like maybe he was a terrible brother or son towards his family. I even have a dialogue for a scene of this kind. Where maybe Angel tries to call out his father and he gives him a reality check:
"I hated you because...? Really? THIS is what you think I care about?! This is what you think is the worst quality of yours? THAT!? Anthony. May I remind you that after your brother was in a shoot out and almost died you NEVER showed up to check on him! You were busy, happily doing some performance in a club and when I tried to tell you about it you laughed! There was one day I saw you shaking on the floor, you overdosed. I was dragging your convulsing body to a hospital to save you. I was afraid to my core that you were close to ending up in this place, but you were saved... and what did I saw few days later? YOU DOING DRUGS AGAIN! You left our house to become a dancer, humiliating your family and yourself and exposing yourself to danger despite what everyone said. You dismissed all of that. You told us to f*ck off from your life... And that's what I did. I do not hate you because you are g*y, h*mos*xual HOWEVER THE F*CK IT'S CALLED. I despise you now, because you are and always were a disrespectful, uncaring little sh*t caring more for your own pleasure than anything else. But never in my life or unlife would I despise you more than I ever loved you. But you did your damn best to make that happen."
I would love that. A showcase of all the things wrong about Angel that he has to face and make right. Him having to face his sins, people he hurt and strive to correct and become someone better. To become someone worthy of salvation and also recognizing that he is worth salvation. That I would like.
@AzraelSoulHunter I also agree with this comment! ~ :D There would be a clever advantage to use Angel's name as a double entendre here: Angel is seen as an "Angel" to Charlie & The Hotel Sinners, but is seen as a fucking DEVIL to his father Henroin & brother Arackniss while the real "Angel" here (In terms of Afterlife status) is Molly! Angel will be confronted and HAS to own up to his shitty past behavior to his family & people he hurt so that he truly never behaves like that again, makes amends with them & truly gets to float up into those pearly gates! ~ :D
@@violetthebat8810 Also maybe use Angel Dust as a drug in a more accurate manner. Because I read what Angel Dust does and it's goddamn scary honestly. It basically makes you into a Jekyl and Hyde. Which is something I use in a fic I write about this series called "Torments of Sinners and imps" where I have Angel have split personality due to overuse of Angel Dust where part of him regrets, another is paranoid and another is hateful. Although I left it alone for a while as I focus on another one I write. I do wish this show did something like that because it feels like Viv seems to believe all drugs just act like cocaine.
@AzraelSoulHunter That's an intriguing idea! ~ :D With Angel having split personalities due to the drug he's named after, that could open more doors to his character exploration & present conflicts! We could see when he uses the drug, and how he acts when the drug is taken away, he goes through EXTREME withdrawal as he seizes out violently and we can see him for a second turn into his true full demon arachnid form! Another thing I wish Hazbin Hotel did was explore a "Bad Ending" Route in a few episodes. What I mean by this is Charlie has to come to terms that she (cannot) save/help them all. I want to see her fail (sometimes) because if she successfully redeems all the sinners that comes her way, then it will be unrealistic because not everyone will be able to the physical ability or mental fortitude to change. I also want to see the struggle of some sinners, watch them fail (I'm being a real Alastor here, I'm sorry, XD) But it's necessary to show that good intentions can't always guarantee another party will be saved without THEM also putting in work to IMProve themselves! ~ :D
Honestly, I am a bit surprised that more people aren't talking about the Sir Pentious club scene
just saw a comment defending it because "they’re two completely different situations that have absolutely nothing to do with each other and have absolutely no common elements between them in any way whatsoever"😓
Vivziepop is not a good writer. She does whatever she wants and expects us to go along with it even if it contradicts previous scenes.
Sadly...
Yeah. Im gonna have to agree. Dont get me wrong, twitter is a cunt to people like her, unfairly i think... but damn does she need to learn stuff
Yeah. And the sad part is that because she has people by her side (close mutuals, unyielding fans, and a horde of simps who will basically lick her feet if so desired), she won't stop and change her ways. She can't even take a simple joke into stride.
Or I think she's not paying attention to what she's trying to focus on? I mean, most of these scenes don't bounce off each other or connect. It sometimes feels disjointed or random. She's not a bad writer, as her writing is great. However, she needs to know what scene to use to avoid undoing previous scenes, like SA.
@@DrAngelKins That makes no sense. How does one not pay attention to something while simultaneously focusing on it?
I feel like this show and Helluva Boss contains so many flaws in writing and tonal inconsistencies because it banks on the audience's expectation to justify said inconsistencies by interpreting the lore. Lore is acceptable in any type of media for world building, but the story, which is put front and center, needs to be able to stand on its own two legs. The writer should not have to gaslight fans into making mental gymnastics for why the plot is so inconsistent.
That joke in Episode 6 was straight up unforgivable because I hate how SA was treated as a joke not too long after Episode 4 where it was portrayed very seriously. I loved Episode 4 for making an attempt to depict SA in a way where it is depicted as a form of sympathizing with Angel Dust and how we love to hate Valentino. So, having Episode 6 deliver a joke revolving around SA not too long after Episode 4 is just unforgivable in my opinion.
"That joke in Episode 6 was straight up unforgivable" it is not as bad as you or this vid is making it out to be." So, having Episode 6 deliver a joke revolving around SA not too long after Episode 4 is just unforgivable in my opinion." The joke did not revolve around S/A the joke revolves around Sir Pentious saying that he will giving out things for eveyone because he gets nervous every time cherry pop ask why.
In addition, Episode 6 is the same episode Angel stands up to Valentino.
@@noahmarant2415and the punchline is him getting SA'd
@@SpoopySquidWe don't even know if he got assaulted for we know he could withdraw before it even happened. He looks fine after the incident
@@chidubemanukwuthe club was called “Consent” and he walked out of the room unscathed. It’s possible that after he was dragged in and things settled down, Sir Pentious simply said “no” and then left. Also, people have to consider the different circumstances surrounding both Pentious and Angel Dust. Pentious’s situation happened as a result of a misunderstanding, and was shown as a one-time occurrence. Angel has been dealing with his situation for, at most, 40 years, and we’ve actually seen it happen onscreen.
Hazbin and Helluva have the Harry Potter problem, where actions aren't inherently bad, it depends on who does it.
Blitz can fatshame his employee but not Mamon, just like Dudley can be fatshamed but not Molly
Sorry for my English: if we were to make a list of all the hypocrisy in Hazbin Hotel and Helluva boss it would be enormous, there is even hypocrisy if we compare moments from both series, there are too many and the fans also seem to have that double standard.
False
@@shotalastor9796 *Elaborate*
@@aranhanadacarnuda Don’t need to. You’re all just bad faith trolls.
@@GothWolfRants you literally just prove there point my guy😂
@@JeremyWoollen Nope. Didn’t happen.
Totally agree, also in my opinion that scene was wasted, that joke could’ve been better, sir Pentius could’ve said that he will have sex with everyone and when sinners will start forcefully dragging him Angel could’ve saved him, this avoids double standard and actually adds some depth to Angel dust too, he knows how it feels like to be SA-d thats why he didn’t let one of his friend to go through that.
I understand what viv is trying to do, but some things definitely can change the tone with SA. Treating SA as a joke here felt weird. It felt disgusting, but i think viv was trying to be funny(which horribly backfired)
Yeah but difference is what makes that scene in episode 6 funny is because he was trying to hard to get Cherri's heart and it backfire on him. And he didn't even got assaulted. He manage to escape with ease.
@@sunkenobi1501 Getting someone dragged for that is not a defendable moment, it's just random and make no sense then getting away with ease makes adding it pointless.
Sa is not joke Ever it's serious
@@sunkenobi1501
There was nothing funny with that scene. He was terrified. He was clawing and calling for help while no one around, especially ones who knew him, did absolutely nothing.
@@artistanthony1007 It's just a little joke. Besides he didn't even got SA'd. He would be too slippery to get trapped in there.
I want to add something that I don’t think is in the video, but do correct me if I’m wrong:
A while ago there was a controversy with Raphielle, who made the Poison storyboards because they had Valentino x Angel as their ‘rape ship’, and then Viv commented on some pins saying she had to have them.
The pins weren’t made by Raphielle. They were made by a SA survivor who uses Valentino and Angel Dust as a way to express their trauma.
Source?
@@addison_v_ertisement1678 of the Twitter/X account of the person who made the pins, or a page on the cotnroversy itself?
Yeah no, raph ships Val and angel. He is not a victim of SA confirming IT HIMSELF. And vivzie still tried to defend him.
Hi, SA survivor here! If anyone actually cares, I have a few things to say about this:
1) I didn't like the Poison sequence, and I found it a little triggering, but it didn't wreck me or offended me or anything like that. Every survivor has a different story, and, while this representation might be horrid to some, others might enjoy it. And that's ok.
2) For some people in the comments: please stop speaking FOR US and treating us like little babies. We don't need fan police to keep us safe. We can just not watch the thing. Chill.
3) You are absolutely right about the bad writing. Viv is a bad writer. The double standard that you point out in the video is definitely proof of this.
4) Because SA is such a serious topic, it would have been very smart of the team to check with an actual SA survivor before animating the sequence, especially if it's designed by an artist who openly lists non-con as one of his fetishes on twitter (which is also OK because we are all adults here and this is a FICTIONAL show where no real humans were harmed. Fantasies are not real!). That would've been the responsible thing to do.
5) If you aren't the appropriate age, do not watch this show.
You're being a little delusional about checking with a victim part. How the fuck are they supposed to do that? This isn't indie animation, Hazbin Hotel has a cooperate behind it.
@@ravenr0cks Perhaps it's delusional to think that someone would care that much, but it doesn't have to be, and it shouldn't be. Any writer could've, for example, made a post on Reddit asking how survivors would represent the abuse in an animated format, what they would like and dislike to see, etc. It ain't that hard. Even if it's delusional, I can still put my idea out there. Sensitivity readers are a thing, too.
@@SadOmnisexualBoy Great point about the specific age! I'll change my words to reflect that.
Something I did like about Poison was the tonal clash, how this duality exists of looking and acting like you're feeling fine even though you've been through hell. We try to convince ourselves that nothing it's happening, sometimes. The part I *PERSONALLY* disliked was how parts of the song were coordinated with the animation to make the lyrics less subtle, it felt a bit forced to me. But I'm happy that you enjoyed it! We rarely see any rep for this kind of thing, it's great to find art that speaks to it.
Another SA victim here:
Trauma is not a fetish.
It does not deserve to be represented as a “fetish”.
Our experinces are not “fictional.”
Representation of a real life topic such as SA deserves respect in all media that it is depicted in. It’s all harmless until it’s not and suddenly you got people taking sa less seriously like that Sir Pentious scene. Sa is not a “joke” or a “fetish.” Retraumatizing yourself by fetishizing sa will only cause yourself AND others more harm.
Speaking from personal experince.
Ralphielle is wrong.
From this I mean that sa representation is not “fiction.”
If it was fiction, it would be something that involves something that doesnt effect people in real life. But sa does effect people in real life, and therefore the representation deserves to be handled with respect. NSFW or not.
It makes me so uncomfortable how s/a is often played off as a joke, when it’s really rather horrifying. The best example I can think of off the top of my head is the scene in Spring Broken where Moxxie is violated by Verosika’s friends, and it’s played off like a joke. It’s super gross
MAN!! Thank you for pointing this out! More specifically, I always HATED the "Moxxie is fat joke" like the most obvious reason is the double standards with Mammon's comments to Fizz, but it also makes no sense, Moxxie (just like every damn character Viv makes) is skinny as hell!
Just to point out, she has characters like Mimzy, Mammon, and Adam that aren't skinny :) And the show is a dark comedy show and with Loonas personality the "Fat jokes" are just that. Jokes.
@@unicorngamer74622 are villains and 1 is a character that leaves and isnt seen again. and one isnt even from the same show?
Also, when Angel Dust is SA’d, it’s the saddest thing in the world. But when Angel Dust sexually harasses Husk and other people, it’s “funny” and “cute”. Don’t get me wrong, what Val does to Angel is much worse but it doesn’t give Angel a free pass to be a creep either. There are people in rl who’ve been SA’d who hate the writing of Angel Dust and how these are sometimes jokes or passable with Angel doing them. But because Angel and Husk are both guys, it’s totally fine and treated as a joke when Angel oversteps boundaries and makes him visibly uncomfortable, but if Angel was a straight man doing this to a woman, he would be hated and the ship wouldn’t be approved. It’s almost as if gay people are treated more as a fetish than actual people. If Angel Dust is SA’d, it the worst thing ever, but then with Sir Pentious, it’s “funny”? He was clearly panicking and resisting. It’s one thing to say you’ll “do it” but a person should get the right to bail out at any given time. If they resist and the people still touch them, that’s assault. And it’s not funny.
Look, I don’t mind SA jokes, I think they can be funny if executed properly and with sensitivity in mind, but there’s telling a joke and then there’s showing it happening. I’m into dark humor, I’ve told and heard jokes that make people go 😬, but the kind of “jokes” Viv shows in the series is just a bit too far. Like she can make up her mind when to take things seriously and when to tell a joke. Moxxie gets violated by Verosika and her posse which is a “joke” as well as him getting groped in the nether regions by Blitzø and you would think Millie would go feral but nooooo. Only in the short when her sister, Sallie Mae, visits her and her sister gets groped by some man in the bar does she go feral. I get it, that’s her sister, but Moxxie is still HER HUSBAND! And if I had a husband who was being groped by man or woman, I don’t care which, let’s just say they wouldn’t be able to touch anyone ever again after I’m done with them.
Same goes with Val though, she wrote the scenes with Angel as a cruel monster, but he is also the dumbest guy in whole Hell. And for some reason, this rapist has fans that love him?
I mean you can be a bad person in *that* regard and not be a calculated charmer around other people.
Wait... I'm sorry but Val can be more than one thing in a character.
Just because he is serious in one episode doesn't mean he's like that with everyone else.
He is a short-tempered piece of shit who abuses his power.
That's who actual abusers are.
Just because he is played for laughs in one scene doesn't discredit who he acts in other scenes.
Also people are allowed to love villains doesn't mean they condone what they do.
That's a thing.
He's not stupid. He's impulsive. That's a big part of the reason why he abuses Angel. Also I don't see the problem with loving Valentino as a character. He's great.
I don’t see a problem in having Val as a favorite character, I mean I get what your saying but like people like Val because of how of a well written villain he is, and his design
@@creampuff85well written? is there something i’m missing because he genuinely doesn’t seem well written to me
Similar issue to how Loona can beat Blitzo and Moxxie and it's played up for laughs. But it's implied Stella hits Stolas and 'gasp! She's evil'
@@Jay-gurl That’s because spousal abuse is treated seriously while Loona is treated as slapstick comedy, which is a thing that has existed ever since humor has existed. Now either grow up or enjoy having emotional breakdowns at Wile E. Coyote cartoons.
@@GothWolfRants I suppose given how VIVZ treats jokes of SA but I still don't like it. We can agree to disagree on that matter. But abuse is wrong, period
@@Jay-gurl And spousal abuse is SHOWN as wrong. Loona is slapstick comedy. Now once again, grow up.
@@GothWolfRantsI said we can agree to disagree and your telling me to grow up? Get a life dude
@@Jay-gurl You’re the one acting like you’re morally superior.
Viv needs to stop portraying sexual assault as funny! ITS NOT FUNNY
I think you CAN have 1 subject represented by 2 diferent standars in the same show, However what Hazbin fails to do is execution. For a good example I will once again pull of Bojack Horseman: this is show that would constantly joke with the serious subject for most of the season and than on the final episodes would punch you in the stomache with the same situations as before but now in a not comedic way.
And thats the diference: comedy first serious latter, will increase the seriousness of the act by reconstextualising how messed up the audience were by laughing at the tragedy.
Serious first comedy second, will undermine all the seriousness and gravity of the first act.
Viv reminds me of Colleen Hoover with her writing
You have to go on a freaking treasure hunt to find some of the lore of this show instead of having to just watch it, i doubt anyone really thinks Viv is a good writer
Can we also talk about how Crimson killing imps for fun was unforgivable while Moxxie killing 3 toxic imps was seen as an ingnorable and negligible joke(I'm talking about western energy where he not only let that imp die but also exploded the petrol pump)
I'm all cool with morally grey characters, but hypocrisy does not make a person likeable. And sort of building off of what you said, sinners are commonly portrayed as vile, depraved, or just rude individuals from the first episode, yet the show then insists that they're all morally grey without showing a good side to most of the background sinners, and the exterminations show the angels cruelly slaughtering innocent children, as though the awful people who kind of had it coming don't exist during these purges.
While it felt out of nowhere the scene of the bar, considering that Sir Pentious has the ability to hipnotize people with his eyes its very likely that he was able to get rid of those guys without that much problem, just like he used that ability against Angel when he was punching him in episode 2.
Alright I could understand that, but he literally doesn't escape until cherri goes into a room with one of the other club members [ with said club member being ONE OF THE SAME ONES WHO ASSAULTED PENTIOUS. ] and if I remember correctly he gets a condom off of his suit too, if he immediately used the hypnosis we would have seen him got out way quicker with less signs he did get s/a'd, plus he's hyperventilating so it's clear that there was literally a struggle to get away.
@@cyanity1017 It’s an adult black comedy. It’s GOING to have jokes about taboo issues. Welcome to adulthood.
@@GothWolfRants ah yes perfect comedy, joking about sexual assault after literally having an entire episode showing why sexual assault is bad and depicting it in a disturbing completely detailed nothing left up to the imagination way basically also giving us a clear visual of what might have happened in the joke scene, perfect logic there. Guess I might as well go to an assault therapy group and make a sexual assault joke over there is that's the definition of dark humor by your logic.
@@GothWolfRantsit's funny since you're probably not eligible to have your own property yet
@@cyanity1017 Hey dude, i know this is kinda late but i still wanted to answer because one, you are remembering the scene wrong and two, you seem like a nice person so i didn't wanted you to be sad. Him not coming out of the room immediately might seem weird however literally 2 minutes later he comes out of the opposite side of the room (looking for his friends), 20 or something demons wouldn't let him go that fast. Also when he comes out of the room he is fully clothed (those demons would have ripped his clothes off immediately), he is not injured, he is fully unscathed and in general there is no signs on him that indicates he wasn't able get away (there is no kiss marks on him or something like that, he is not shaking or anything) and if you don't believe me you can rewatch the scene! Also he was hyperventilating simply because he was scared. I know this is pretty long but i really didn't wanted you yo be sad and you were remembering the scene wrong
Okay this would actually be a lot funnier if nothing sexual actually happened with Sir Pentious.
Like if they were later seen having some drinks and playing go fish or something I would be laughing my butt off.
If Sir Pentious was still a gag character, it could work (not really though) but the moment he's been added as a Main character, this is not excusable. For shame Vivziepop, you wonder why people have issue with you and your writing.
"For it to be turned into a complete joke"
VIVZIE CAN'T WRITE!!!!!!!! We know this! I know dozens of people who ONLY watch this show for the music or for a specific character because the pacing and writing is not a good enough reason to watch the show.
L opinion
@@pjdixon6199 you cannot honestly tell me that having 1 full month pass off screen between each episode is good writing.
@@FizzieSpriteyes it is
@@shotalastor9796 Explain why it is if you're so sure, otherwise you're just trolling.
@@artistanthony1007 I don't need it there are a lot of review that says that is a good series with a good plot and good joke (objective) try to watch mortebianca or 151eg
It's almost as though Vivziepop is trying to have her cake and eat it too, when we all know we can't (and shouldn't) do that. But I digress. After all, she is "just the victim".
Yeah
@@nevaehhamilton3493 Or the people making these complaints are a bunch of infantile cancel trolls who don’t understand or care about media literacy.
@@GothWolfRants both sides of the argument are awful. People are aggravating her on purpose because they know it'll get a negative reaction from her. It helps absolutely no one.
@@nevaehhamilton3493 YOU are the ones misrepresenting her work to disparage her moral character, so no it isn’t “both sides”, it’s just you pearl-clutching virtue signalers.
@@GothWolfRantswhy are you acting so defensive over an opinion
Welcome to Hollywood. You have proved my point that the show has bad writing and plotholes just like HB.
It literally the most lifeless thing
I think if there's any good comparison as to show how Hazbin Hotel and Vivzie's other media just simply can't portray assault in a respectful manner, look no further than Mouth Washing.
With the HH fan base, people literally cosplay Angel Dust's abuser and outright just say that they don't care about what Valentino has done to hurt and violate Angel because they think he's too physically attractive to hold accountable.
With the Mouth Washing fan base, a lot of people refuse to even refer to Jimmy by name. That's how much practically everybody hates Jimmy.
The "joke" with Sir Pentious would have been so easy to make non-rapey. They could've just had it so that some sex demons start eyeing Pentious up and he realizes what he just said and adds that he didn't mean it, which causes them to walk off looking disappointed.
I know damn well Angel Du$t didn’t want to read the contract so little bro just ran wit it and then Lil Bro got bitch slapped 2 minutes later
HELP ABAGGSGS
You put this out of context, Sir P was trying to court Cherry bomb. The issue was the man has zero confidence in himself, low self esteem, and next to no game. In that moment of fear he just blurted out he's doing it with everyone. What it is when they drag him is that he didnt expect people to hop on so fast. Imagine saying you'd face anyone in a drink contest in a bar full of crazy people, someone is going grab you in a pinch. This man is out of his element and little understanding of a hyper sexual society. In the Pilot episode he does not understand what an innuendo is.
Yeah, about the glorifying sexual assault. Even with the context of the music video it still feels like glorification, the only difference is the intent. It feels like the people who try to bring to light issues of abuse but do it in outlandish manner and then it gets labeled as performative with no substance. That's how I felt when I watched that episode, that on top of Vivzie's iffy writing, for me it just gets narrative confusing.
No it doesn't. If it was "confusing" then that's entirely on you actualy because they left no room for confusion.
Many people have pointed it out but the "glorification" come from the fact that it is a sex industry. They are trying to glamorize the industry not the assualt. Angel (happy or not) need to have a smile on his face and perfom all the time for the camera. It's what he does.
@@wellhellothere-v1h Why does the sex industry need to be "glamorized." Also that just makes the episode come off as unhinged instead. At best it comes off as a hamfisted attempt to show how Angel tries to cope. Also if it were entirely on me, then why do other people also come to a similar conclusion?
We didn't forgive an Indian company for trying a publicity stunt over the sex assaults that happen. We rightfully tore down Cuties, so by all means I'm not going to give episode 4 a pass because of "intention."
@@rutyqutykandi1361 because that's how the industry is. You want a good depiction do you not? Why do u think it's "hamfisted"?
I'm sorry but the portion of people who complain about this show are just hating at this point. Many people came to the agreement that episode 4 was good. Even this video says it. Even some huge critics don't think it was a bad episode. The few people who do are mostly haters.
and I just read to word "confusing" for the first time from you so I think it's just you?
I don't know anythin about the Indian company incident you are talking about so I don't have much of an opinion on it
I don't usually like to use "victim priviledge" but as a victim of SA I thought episode 4 was a well done attempt even if episode 6 was not
@@wellhellothere-v1h I don't want a glamorized look. I don't need a poor portrayal of the sex industry either. I think a neutral depiction is far healthier than either glamor or horror. If you're just going to instantly label people not liking this episode as "just hating" then it's clear to me you don't actually want to understand other people's perspectives. That's probably why I'm the first person who you heard that had this opinion.
@@rutyqutykandi1361 Glamorizing is the realistic version. Sex industry is glamorized to a T. It's far from a "poor portrayal" .
I am going to abel people as haters because they always fail to see the logic and the reasons why the show is the way it is. The person who doens't understand is not me, it's actually you
Literally bro. I was so angry at how she handled Angel vs Sir Pentious
seems the creator can't focus on one theme of the story. it's all over the place
When i first watched the ep with sir Pentious getting SAed i was so confused and annoyed because it was such a big point in angel dust ep that it obviously is bad.... just couldn't they make another joke?
The only way as a MC this could have worked is if Angel was hurt horribly beforehand and then has those Sinners teach him what it's like but that doesnt work either because Angel is supposed to be a person who doesnt do that stuff and working to do good so that entire scene could've been replaced with something more important, it also makes no sense for SP's character to say that, he's a show off and dominant to an extent but never gave me that vibe he wants to fxck everyone. Basically that whole thing could've been done better.
Edit:Oh wait, he didn't have any understanding of sxx jokes and humor in Pilot so yes like I said, makes no sense for his character.
In that scene i actually stopped for a second just to process what happened. Altough the joke about having sex with everyone I find it funny, i didn't think the same when a bunch of people dragged Sir Pentious to a sex room
Let's step back for a moment here and replace Angel Dust with Sir Pentious in that club scene. It's not so funny anymore, is it? Because the character who's shown multiple times suffering from S/A is going through it again, but this time it's being treated like we're supposed to laugh at him.
I thought it touched on double standards within society. Angel Dust who is seen as more attractive and effeminate was garnered with pity but, Sir Pentious who is not seen as particularly attractive or effeminate has his cries for help unheard. Just like in society where a woman with more power better looks and influence would be given justice but, the average woman is told, “Well what were you wearing?” I think this is an important lesson on how social norms can make someone apathetic.
Sry for bad english --> I love your analizes and the music in the background, your content should be more popular.
The thing about Vivien is that she knows how to write decent stories and good characters... But she has NO IDEA how to craft a plot. For those who don't understand what I mean, this is how it was explained to me when I was learning how to write scripts and craft stories.
Story: The map.
Characters: The Vehicles.
Plot: The streets and routes.
It's true, she has a good map, well made vehicles... but the routes are not well defined and don't get me started on the streets they go into. As stated here, sexual assault is treated as what it's meant to be: A horrific, cruel, even straight up unnatural act of malice, shown off in one episode... Yet treated as a joke in the other. Thing is, maybe it could have worked if the episodes were swapped around somehow.
I do appreciate that Vivien is bringing back 2D animation and showing how mature it can be... But I HATE how she has no real humility about it, plus treating her old cast and crew like disposable objects is not cool. Seriously, why is that a trend now? Look what happened with SMG4, Celeste Notley-Smith being dropped and replaced unfairly and without warning as Tari, a character she voiced since her inception. It's just pathetic.
But I digress. I'm always mixed whenever I watch Vivien's stuff, I appreciate the effort. I don't appreciate entirely how she got there, and again, she needs to cop it on the chin when it comes to criticism.
Is it bad that i find addicted a better representation then poison? I felt more bad for angel in that song then poison
Yeah my problem isn’t that it’s inconsistent, since in a show sometimes inconsistency in jokes can be done well… Like how in Bojack horseman the show and the viewers don’t take seriously that Princess Carolyn is technically dating a child, but you take seriously Sarah Lyn’s implied csa and Penny. My problem is that that in film and comedy sexual assault jokes that are as literal as sir pentious are so normalised. Your criticism is valid though and I wish Vivsiepop would respond better to criticism
At this point I’m just done with vivzi, she is a spoiled child who can’t take criticism to heart. And I gotten into a fight with someone who like that episode. I’m sorry but putting sexulize image of sa is tasteless and people who are victims has a huge problem in that since it handles it poorly.
And I find it mind blowing that show shows sa as a joke with the other character it’s like when family guy use domestic violence as a joke and yet when they talk about it in quagmire sister episode it’s all serious. I bet that in a couple of years when the show is done, people will look at the show with new eyes and realize that this show isn’t that good at the start. It will be like Steven universe all over again. At first people love it and now people don’t really talk about it or even care about the show anymore.
?? Steven Universe started out pretty good. It was the ending that ruined it.
Steven universe was rushed by corporate, so it's not their fault
@@DrAngelKinsSU was never thst good to begin with!
her webcomic Zoophobia should've been a huge red flag of what to expect from her
@@hubertberrum6242why is that…she put something bad in it, didn’t she?
Viv: "I dislike rape like the next person boooooo 👎... BUU."
Based penguinzero reference.
I've been saying this for a while now. Vivienne is a bad person.
Say the user with a fascist flag
@shotalastor9796 Do you make it a habit to embarass yourself? This isn't a fascist flag. It's called the Gadsden flag, and it was used by rebels in the American Revolution to fight for liberty. It was made by Colonel Gadsden, a native of South Carolina, in 1775. This flag is against totalitarian states.
@@libertytree1775after will be use by the altright
@shotalastor9796 Okay, I'm sure Klansmen drink Coke, too. Should we cancel the Coca-Cola symbol?
@@libertytree1775no but right now is fascism simbol
I definitely commend these past videos. They're making good points that I haven't even thought about. I've known Helluva's writing has kinda sucked for a while, but the body image comparison is so true, and makes even less sense when Blitz - a perpetrator - feels offended for Fizz. Even more-so that the contract is the exemplar of a legal forum of consent. Your content seems intelligently made, and I like how your videos are of length appropriate for the discussion, rather than catering to an algorithm.
Viv's writing is what I'd imagine an edgy 14 year old to write.
I don't blame people being annoyed with that joke but the criticism is over blown.
Angel Dust's situation was highly specific and had a lot of realistic elements to it- like how Charlie wanted to help but made the situation worse by being careless. also how Husk confronted Angel while he clearly wasn't ready to face his situation was very emotional and interesting. Angel portrays signs of Hypersexuality, which is a pretty taboo reaction to SA since to outsiders it just looks like being promiscuous. People are often very unsympathetic towards survivors who become more sexual after experiencing violence. I've seen multiple survivors commenting how Angel is a good representation of trauma. Survivors might end up seeking out dangerous situations - something we see Angel do btw (the spiked drink scene). Husk and Charlie are very sympathetic characters yet they still misunderstand what kind of support Angel needs at first.
The whole Sir Penteous scene however doesn't relate to any kind of real life situation at all. This is why people criticise prison r*pe scenes so harshly because it's real horrible thing that happens yet people just make fun of it. Sir Penteous "I'll have s- with everyone" is just too ridiculous and brief for me to take it too seriously. Each to their own
But it’s still a rape joke. And it’s weird to insist you’ll respect survivors and still throw it in
@@Birdyboys Yeah.
@@Birdyboys idk what you tought but the scene doesn't even say he was indeed raped, when I saw i just tought he was dragged in and had to run or scream it was a missunderstanding.
The joke is not even the rape, is sir pentious awkwardness leading him to get himself in trouble
@@strangedogg5068 A lot of these people aren’t even serious. They’re just morally grandstanding because they don’t like Viv so they’re trying to pretend they’re better than she is.
Thank you!! Like WHY was that scene even included, it's so fuckin jarring!!
Dude, school starts at 7. How am I suppose to watch it
Lunch break. Like I did at work😉
Skill issue
You got 4 minutes man
Wait, I don't get it. Something can be played for laughs while the other can be played for a serious moment. Plus, when Pentious returned, he looked completely fine, unlike that scene with Moxxie.
and I don't even think the joke in moxxies scenes are suposed to be funny, to me they are suposed to show luna is a asshole
@@strangedogg5068 I think they're referring to a scene where Moxxie is Sexually harassed by Verosica and her gang.
How about we... not joke about SA? I feel like that should be a rule of thumb. It's not a funny thing, joking about it outside of your messed up friend group is disrespectful, especially when you're trying to make a story that supposedly tackles it seriously.
I had these exact thoughts for a while, why the framing of the show chooses to portray certain “bad” acts as bad and other ok. It’s hell so grape and such is a normal thing, so it shouldn’t be framed as a bad thing (we already kno it is).
Cannabilsm is bad but it’s framed as a quirky thing the only reason angel and his abuse is framed in such a way is cause of its close proximity and relatability to the real world and nothing else. The pov of the show is bias.
Everything that happens in hell is a result of having bad people cooped up in hell. Angel shouldn’t get to only be portrayed as a victim when he’s in hell for a reason but that’s all ignored cause now this murderer is being abused.
The mafia aren’t exactly good people in life and because of his lack of development we don’t understand who he is as a character only his arc and that he’s a victim of his own circumstances. He signed that contract regardless of any and everything and the portrayal of his own actions shouldn’t be twisted.
I’d rather the show had a less biased framing of everything tbh.
2:44
I found Helluva Boss when I was WAY too young. I used to ship Huskerdust and Stolitz, but now upon rewatching I see how EFFED these relationships are.
Think about it, when harassment and sa is done by a “masculine” man, like Valentino and Chaz, Mammon, it’s seen as this horrible awful thing (which it is) BUT when “feminine” characters do it, such as Angel and Stolas, it’s completely fine? Why? Is it because they have trauma themselves? Does having trauma and being gay equal to being able to go out and harass people? Imagine if these ships were straight. Everyone in this fandom would go MENTAL. But since they’re gay, it’s fine? If you got harassed, does that automatically make it fine for you to harass others as well?
Sorry for the rant but like come on, writers.
A rant full of bullshit
I gotta say, it was nice to know you, since you have good opinions, but you summoned the horde.
My main problem with both Hazbin Hotel and Helluva Boss is how in episode 4 of Hazbin Hotel, Vivziepop literally had a sexual assault "artist" have a major part of that episode, Stolas is constantly extremely predatory towards Blitz in Helluva Boss, and both shows basically try to play really predatory behavior and sexual assault off as jokes and have people work on the shows that fetishizes that stuff, I am really disgusted by both series for that
These shows (hazbin hotel and helluva boss) are an example of what "pretty privilege" is... Without the good animation and character design, it would be a total dog shit. Like I could write a book of every single thing wrong with these two shows. It's not normal. Even a toddler could do a better writing, litterally, no joke here.
To be clear I am not a Hazbin Hotel fan, but this criticism feels a little bit unfair. Just because this is so Common. Pop Culture Detective has a whole series about Sexual Assault being played for laughs, and the jokes often come up in dramatic media. SVU is a great example of a show that will casually throw in a rape joke here and there despite it being about the horrors of sex based violence. Not saying this isnt a valid criticism, but its far from unique in American Television.
“Well le other show did it so if make okay”
@ like I said it’s a valid criticism, and I agree the jokes undermine the seriousness of the situation. It’s bad writing to me. But i think this reflects on a larger issue of rape culture in American media. It’s not specific to this show. HH is not unique in this sin. Feel free to dislike every other show that does the same thing.
Thank you!
Seriously, what was she thinking?
Ah it’s you again been a while
Why are you thanking this guy he's wrong
@@noahmarant2415 why is he wrong?
@@leavemealone802 She was thinking that her audience are emotionally mature adults who can watch dark humor without getting fake morally outraged.
@@GothWolfRantsit pretty rich to her shit dark 🤣
Hazbin Hotel and Helluva Boss are making kind of weird whenever one character hits the other. On one hand, Loona hits Blitz, but it's more of a joke than anything serious, but when Stella is about to slap Stolas it's implied that she abuses him on a daily basis. Sir Pentious wants to the thing with Cherri Bomb and then decided everyone gets it which again is meant to be a joke. But Angel getting abused by Valentino is way too serious and awful on that impact.😬
The ending was funny and that’s all I’m going to say, nice video
Another thing I hate how Stolas is written.
I get it he is abused and assaulted by Stella, but did Stella even asked to be married with him in first place? Stolas acts as a victim in here lot of times, but he always gets mad on Blitz that he has to do his own issues instead spending time with him.
Blitz had a right to be mad on Stolas, because he believed that Stolas is unkillable and he would dump him like a ragdoll after the death. He believed he was Royal's sex toy to please Stolas so he could work and fix his own issues.
Stolas acted like a bitch, because at s1 ep2 Stolas hated Moxxie and Millie saving his ass from assassins. At S2 ep4, vecause Blitz had an apointment to have Loona a rabies shot, Stolas could just call help from royal guards instead. Like wtf he does not have guards thay everyone knows that every celebrity or royals has a bodyguard behind.
And Moslty Stella has a right to him be dead. He does not even cares for Octavia in some episodes. He knews that Stella knows about his powers and belongins gonna be for Octavia but he ingores it. Stella never has released any powers, he could just used his powers to show Stella her place how he did to Blitz and D.O.R.K. members. Stolas knows that Octavia is in danger if he dies, but he does NOTHING! He could just expose Stella's ass and call her a bad name. He HAS A FUCKING ROYAL POWER FROM PAIMON. But nope, he choses to bottom and let Stella beat him like he is masochist. Stolas expects that Blitz would gonna beat up Stella instead of him to deal with her.
And another thing, Stolas didn't thank Blitz from saving him from assasination. He got pissed and called him selfish freak.
the serpentious scene could've been less of a disaster if there was just a single scene of all the people leaving that room disappointed cause nothing really happened
Yeah, or if when he gets there they all leave cuz they think he's weird or something. A ton of ways to play it but she went for the family guy gag.
Don’t ask questions consume project
wut
@@carnage0685 It's not serious, they're just pointing out the response he'd get for making anything that has issue with Viv and the show.
@@artistanthony1007 I don't think I've ever seen someone make a response like that before.
@@carnage0685 Never been done like that but People make comments calling out the people who refuse to listen to those having issues and praise Viv, theirs is just a new one.
then get excited for next project
I wish that gag from S1 of Moxxie "being fat" would stay in S2 bc it was gone, and one of gag of when Moxxie was refered as opposum should been more done.
Vivziepop just isn't a good writer
Her most beloved project is the one that isn't voiced
This reminds me of discourse surrounding a scene in bojack horseman. I found this Reddit post “*SPOILERS* Hollyhock is SO against non-consensual drugging butttt…
This is bothering me!
When Hollyhock first appeared in the show, one of the first things she does when we’re introduced to her character is DRUG Todd via chloroform.
However, the entirety of Hollyhock’s storyline for a majority of her time on the show is heavily based on how wrong it was to be unknowingly drugged by Beatrice, and the traumas that came with it.
Nothing in this show is done on accident, so I feel like this is SUCH a big plot hole for me! I wish SOMETHING was said about the fact that Hollyhock literally did the same thing. And what Hollyhock did was arguably worse, since she chloroform attacked Todd from behind, which I would imagine is a pretty physically AND mentally taxing ordeal to go through.
So please tell me: Did I miss something? Was Hollyhock ever called out for this blatant hypocrisy, even as a joke, throughout this series?!
(Ps this is the best show subreddit ever!!!! Thank you for sharing all the Easter eggs you have found- I can’t wait to rewatch the show!)”
An explanation I've heard is that it depends on what the show is going to show as serious vs unserious, honestly not sure how I feel about either.
Like with Helluva, Viv wants to touch on tough topics but still be edgy and make jokes that use the same topics as the punchline because that's how that humor goes. She wants to have story driven shows, but has no idea that trying to force it both ways breaks the immersion, which is vital to story shows.
Who would have guessed Hell would be full of the most deplorable bastards?
That's not the issue, at least not for me. It's more about the inconsistent writing and how the show itself wants you to take certain scenes seriously while then using similar themes for a laugh in a.. less than tasteful manner. I like how fucked up everyone is personally, Charlie should be shit at befriending and talking to ppl cuz shes sheltered, Vaggie should be a dick towards ppl cuz she was killing them indiscriminately, Angel Dust shouldn't be aware of boundaries and when to stop, Husk should be an alcoholic asshole and Alastor should be.. well, you get the point. The writing just doesn't make it clear that their flaws are.. well, flaws half the time. Double and Triple standards for every other character depending on the scene, it makes it a bit confusing to understand. Still enjoyable though, I had fun with it
I’m so fucking stupid. I legitimately did not even realize that Sir was being sexually assaulted… or even having sex. I legit thought he got dragged in and then popped right back out. Or even watched in horror for a moment or two and then… popped back out.
Hear me out… when Sir Pentious first asks Cherry Bomb to join him, she says no because “I’m heading out” and starts to head out. Sir Pentious is dragged into the room after proffering to have sex with EVERYONE (consent is revocable, that is not up for debate), and then when he pops back out (in what I thought was only moments later), Cherry is still exiting the club. My stupid ass thought it was a “fish out of water” joke and not a sexual assault joke. Was I the only one? I can’t be the only (fully adult) person who missed that?
don't worry ur not the only one!! And that also doesn't make you stupid :((
I had the same thought too, that he saw that they were serious about it and had to hastily explain that he didn't actually mean it and leave to get back to Cherri asap
,,,i also figured that he had that "fish out of water" experience since he's like a. Repressed victorian conservative???? So he might not be used to seeing MULTIPLE people 'doing a sex' so enthusiastically right in front of his face lmao
I might be on copium here, but yea, I didn't really think it was ACTUALLY a implied sexual assault joke until I looked back on it and analyzed it🥲
Well if that's the case maybe we're both stupid???? Hehe.
@@thou_narsty_gremlin maybe we should start a club 😂😂😂
The only time I can think treating it as both a joke and serious in the same series is if they flipped it. Treat it as a small joke first, then later on show the serious effect it has had on that character. It could be a decent commentary on how a lot of the time in real life, a lot of people don't treat it as seriously as it really is if it wasn't outright 🍇 or extremely violent.
Even then, though, it'd still be very, very difficult to pull off in a tasteful manner.
There are stories where everyone involved is morally gray or the main characters don't behave heroically and let bad things happen to those around them. Maybe they're jaded, maybe they're not meant to be seen as good people. But! This requires a specific kind of narrative framing that implies the writer understands that the moral of the story is therefore that this world is unfair and the injustice they are personally enduring is only one of many tragedies happening to everyone all the time. They must understand that their OWN actions reflect the actions of others. This is the exact kind of framing I expected from a story about Hell but weirdly.... Vivzie does not appear to frame her characters that way. Its always childishly simplistic-- THIS is the one you feel sorry for today and everything they do wrong is a product of sympathetic trauma, and THIS is the one that's evil and bad and mean. Its almost like you can sense it floating above their heads like markers, and everyone else is free game to abuse and kill and torture unless they just happen to have the "victim" card in hand. When they're hurt its funny, when this one is hurt they cry on screen for 5 full minutes.
Vivzie is not willing to acknowledge in her own characters that they watched sir pentious be dragged away and didn't help him. Nor is she willing to frame the widespread willingness to force a man to have sex in a bar CALLED Consent to be reflective of the same culture that nearly got Angel Dust drugged and is therefore a part of the same narrative theme. Characters who SHOULD understand the severe ramifications of sexual assault on someone's body and mind, people who should care about him, or their own principles, enough to step in and intervene decide to simply do nothing as something the audience has already been primed to understand as tragic is actively happening to an extreme degree. But you are not supposed to see that as a real flaw they authentically have. It was nothing more than a shallow joke that undermines the existing personalities of already established characters AND severely undermines the scene that follows it where we are supposed to suddenly seriously care if one main character stands up to another for the exact same thematic injustice. The characters in a scene should not behave as though they are aware some moments are more important than others without justifying it in universe in the minds of the characters. The characters do not KNOW they are in a story where some scenes are jokes and some aren't. So if they see injustice they must behave /consistently/ to their principle no matter the tone of the scene in order to be well written characters. It would not be impossible to keep the joke but simply have a character, perhaps angel dust himself, protect sir pentious in some silly, panicked way as a subtle reflection of how he was protected by Husk. Maybe he makes a joke that makes it seem like sir pentious would be unpleasant to have sex with in some way, embarrassing him further but saving him from the assault. Both a joke but a meaningful and consistent characterization that avoids confusing the themes of your narrative.
And no, having pentious unrealistically brush it off as if unfazed by it does not fix the problem, if anything it cheapens previous serious depictions of assault by implying that the victim was merely overreacting.
This is 10 second joke. Forget it
@@yalovoyhznepomny No, never lmao
Thank you for talking about this! I love this show but I really don't like a lot of the writing and this Sir P moment was horrendous. 😔
And you didnt even mention the fact that Sir Pentious sexually assaulted Cherrybomb when he agressively kissed her without her consent.
And Cherrry and the Community approve of this action vehemently.
The same community rips any guy a new one if he would try that in real life. Hypocrisy. Yes. But I still liked it and wished for Pentious and CHerry to work out some day. Its weird. But thats the human condition. We are very selective and hypocritical beeings.
But the biggest double standart in the show is the Exterminations. They are portrayed as bad and evil. But if you think about it more, its actually the opposite. Hell is shitty for like 99.99% of sinners. Everybody suffers and is miserable. And its getting overpopulated FAST. Meaning that the situation becomes worse and worse and the overlords become more and more powerfull while the structures they create are mere impossible to break when they have tens of thousands of sinners under their wing.
Until the Exterminators arrive and relief all those suffering souls from their constant agony and destroying the overlords grip on the place. Meanwhile the remaining sinners get more room to breathe and a shift in power. And what happens when hell is overpopulated and cannot menage itself anymore? then its sinners will attack heaven, to conquer it and make it this horrible place too.
(spoiler for Ep8) meanwhile Adam is literally the first man who to ever have been betrayed and cheated on by TWO women, while his two sons are murderers. the man is a shell of himself so how are we to expect anything than hatred towards sinners? And in the end he smiled in death, knowing that Lute stayed by his side till the end. Maybe the first woman to ever do so .... He was strawmanned to be the big bad but he is actually the hero nobody wants but everybody needs.
So even though Vivzie portrayed the Exterminators and Adam as horrible people, she actually totally glossed over the fact that the exterminations are a good measure, a merciful relief and probably the easiest solution for the predicament hell and heaven are in.
I hope she realises this herself and puts some light onto that.
At this point, anything is sexual assault. First off, he was basically sacrificing his life and wanted to kiss the girl he loved before doing so. We have seen many scenes like this in fiction it's not like pentious stripped her or anything, secondly, cherri actually enjoyed it, it's not that deep.
@@ZorelexKelpnix yeah you are right. Kissing somebody without their consent is sexual assault *period*
There is no „oh this is now sexual assault all of a sudden?!“ kind of narrative.
There is socially accepted sexual assault and not accepted sexual assault.
I’m not trying to open a new field of battle here because this is already well known stuff.
The only factor that we value about it is if we sympathise with the assaulter, or not. It’s that simple.
If nothing about that scene would be changed besides Pentious still beeing the same patronising asshole he was at the start, we would judge him completely differently than we do now.
I can say only one thing you are imbecile
For the second part of your comment, it is not that simple. Yes hell is full of bad people, but there are a bunch of opaqueness to that that makes the exterminations less just. For example, if you've seen Helluva Boss Ep. Murder Family, you can see a good person that killed her husband BECAUSE HE CHEATED ON HER. That was her only major sin in life and yet she still went to hell for that. This is why Charlie said in Welcome to Heaven "The rules are shades of gray", because like perhaps Sir Pentious in life never had bad intentions but was forced to make bombs for the World War. Which is probably one of the reasons why he was able to get redeemed in ep 8. And that is exactly why the exterminations aren't that justified. And that's also why Charlie believes in redemption. Most of hell are jerks, but the some that are not is perhaps why the exterminations were portrayed as bad.
@@externalbehavior do you really think cheating is a crime worth of death? Doesn’t matter what you did in life. Murder IS a mortal sin …
I personally don’t really give a shit about jokes about sexual assault, but when your story goes into an explicit and serious portrayal of it that kind of humor should be closed off to you.
I agree. I believe you can make jokes on literally any subject if you know WHEN and WHERE is the perfect time to make it. Like the guy mentioned in his vid, you can't treat SA (or the implication of it) happening to a character as a joke if you also want to take it seriously if it happens to another character.
i really don't think it's a great idea to make an SA song be a britney spears music video should have been a somber ballad not a party song