Audi S4 15 Second Rule TECHNICAL DISCUSSION - B6 B7 - 2003-2008
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 7 ก.ค. 2024
- This is the Technical Discussion video for the Audi S4 15 Second Rule process. Please be sure to read the comments below, and to add a comment of your own!
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• Audi S4 15 Second Rule...
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Referenced in this video:
www.audizine.com/forum/showth...
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www.audiworld.com/forums/s4-b... - ยานยนต์และพาหนะ
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Please people like this post so it can be cleared up once and for all, and people who are not familiar with this engine aren't thinking they are preventing a problem which they arent. The first reference link I clicked is from sunnys4 who I happen to know from audizine, his problem was not chain rattle but the intake manifold flapper. I said it in the last vid the 15 second rule does NOTHING for chain rattle, since the oil pump is not electric and doesn't prime, and oil pressure is ONLY build up after the car is started. If you have a rattle that disappears when waiting with ignition on accessory mode then that's likely caused by your variable intake manifold flapper, another known issue easily to be confused with chain rattle, or something else, but definitely NOT the chains/tensioners.
Please read the following audi bulletin:
Technical Service Bulletin Transaction No.: 2017369/3
24 Rattling from intake manifold Release date: Dec 17, 2008
Condition
REVISION HISTORY
Revision
Date
Purpose
3
-
Revised Title to add Repair Group
Sporadic hard metallic rattling sound from intake manifold only after first cold start, audible for 1-2 seconds.
Technical Background
Early activation of the vacuum solenoid valves for the variable intake manifold by the Engine Control Module (J623) during cold engine starts may cause the internal intake flaps to vibrate and create a brief rattling sound from the intake manifold.
Production Solution
New software in Engine Control Module (J623) resolved the intake manifold rattling issue.
Tip: Please explain to the customers that this new software is the latest software level with improved driving characteristics, which includes the following changes:
etc
S4 where did you find that from?
So just a system reflash essentially?
ARA BLUE S4 are the Audi dealers still giving software updates to the ECU on these Audis.
@@bluemoth1879 I am also curious about this question
Am looking to buy a spares or repair S4. The car is advertised as timing chain problem but then he has also stated there is a misfire in more than one cylinder. Is the misfire related to the timing chain or this something that needs to be fixed separately
My daughters S4 gives a rattle on startup.
After a detailed listening excercise with multiple startups, I told her It only sounded like the intake flap.
I would suggest that this is often mistaken for chain rattle.
A canny Audi enthusiast could snare a bargain when purchasing an S4, as many are discounted because they rattle on startup!!
Her black B6 is TOTALLY MINT, on RS 19's, and cost only £3,000 😈
....in fact i was so blown away by her car, that soon after, i bought one, a black Avant, also on 19s, with a £2500 receipt for cam adjusters, for £4000! 😆
What AMAZING cars S4's are!
I started doing this after the first video. It really works.
Interesting video and discussion. Within the couple years of owning my B6 S4 I have replaced the chains and cam tensioners along with the intake manifold flapper (including update to software).
My main take homes from the various noises these bought about:
1. Before replacing the chains, there was a noticeable noise on startup at the back of the engine, particularly on startup but if you listened carefully it was there most of the time when warm too. I ended up have 2 cracked guides and sporadic codes relating to camshaft positioning.
2. When my intake flapper went bad it produced a fairly similar noise to the chains but louder and it didn't seem to be isolated to just cold starts. My flapper was basically stuck open meaning I lost some grunt lower down the rev range. It meant the car felt more slugglish accelerating than it should. Up at the top end it had no affect as the flapper is supposed to open around 5k (or something like that).
3. Since having the repairs I've had zero startup rattle from cold starts. The chains were done 18 months ago and still no noise on startup.
So I'm not entirely sure a healthy S4 engine should have any sort of rattle but I've only ever own this one so no others to compare with.
Total Technik just want to say thank you very much for all of your videos, I am subscribed, "like" them all and as an Audi enthusiast look forward to your videos. Please keep up the good work!
I have done some research on the timing chain "rattle" issue and found a video that others might find useful. It is from a TH-camr with the name Magic Smoke and the title of the video is "Audi S4 V8 Timing Chain Problem". In his video he "repairs" his rattle with a couple of "O" rings and two oil non-return valves. Please watch and comment. Thanks
The B7s that I have fixed have a bad non-return allowing the oil filter housing to drain its contents back to the sump. Change the valve and the rattle at start up disappeared. See video.
Just purchased a 2007 VW Touareg with the 4.2 and it is honestly scary the noise it makes on cold starts considering first VW I own. But after trying this, it is night and day difference. Thank you 👏👏👏👏
Great video, thank you. Just my two pence worth.
ON ANY make of car, you should always wait for the electronics to do their bit, ie, all the clock lights, warning lights, to go off, before starting your car up anyway, in any weather. As cars are getting more like computers, you can’t use your computer, until it’s all loaded up can you. Patience is key.
I have a S4 B6 cabrio and it works. I only tried three times since I saw your video. Thanks!
Total Tech you definitely got the intake part right I have a feeling. Like a light bulb going off when you said it, nicely done.
Awesome - really appreciate the input!
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first time seeing / hearing this; I wish I would have heard this many years ago! I have a B6 Avant and I will test this today........thank you!
So I bought a '03 S4 yesterday, the ad stated it had the 2 second rattle when started up. Before buying the car I obviously read and watched everything available on the S4. I came across this video too. With the knowledge I had, I started negotiating about the camchain tensioners, and bought the car with a relative low mileage for an amazing price. When the car was mine finally, I tried the 15+ second rule and guess what: No rattle what so ever. Car runs amazing, got the complete engine rebuild 50k kilometers ago, it feels like a super fresh and well kept car. So glad I came across this video and your buying guides. Thank you very much. Cheers from the Netherlands. 👋
Thank you for these videos, never even heard of this issue. Nice to know what to look for.
Very well done video. Thank you!
This is a great video and one that invites discussion and hypotheses testing - thanks for that Total Technik, got the grey matter firing up.
I don’t have an S4, yet, however I am willing to sit comfortably with my uncertainty until ‘we’ can gather evidence that will either confirm or dis-confirm the software/electric-servo/mechanical intake flap hypothesis.
If we can repeatedly demonstrate our findings then we can move from anecdotal reports to having a a solid working assumption, one that is supported by the Audi technical report, that says the solution is a software update to the control module.
If there is a way to disconnect power to the module that still allowed the engine to start, then we could gather more data?
“Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.” [Arthur C. Clarke] this is what I was fighting with the initial 15 second rule video 😊
I have had aa 2005 B6 S4 for 8 years and after seeing your first video about the 15 second rule, I tried it and it worked!! I have chain rattle at start up the whole time I have owned it. Now it never happens after waiting 5 seconds or more after turning the key I have 117K miles so far and not done "the" rebuild yet. One day I will as I love my S4.
Its your manifold rattling then not the chains.
Great information. I have a 2005.5 b7 S4. Thank you, for taking the time to inform us Audi owners...:) 👍 Go... Quattro
Thank you, glad you enjoyed it!
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In summary:
I would like to stick out my neck and state....on the record......
If the 15 second rule works for your S4, - it's the intake flap rattling.👍
If the 15 sec rule has NO EFFECT.....it's your 'chain'. 😕
Thanks for the info! I was wondering why the 15 second trick had 0 effect on my startup rattle.
norincobro capri Great info on that.. simple and straightforward.
Another great video. Food for thought!
Really interesting, thank you
i can agree on intake flap rattle. i know guy who changed chains and tensioners and it still was rattling on cold starts!
Hey thanks for you videos. Very informative. I have a B5 A4 with the 2.8 amx engine on 230,000kms. This engine also has "the rattle" on cold start for 1-2 seconds. It even says in the owners manual for the car that this is normal and not to be concerned, this is from 1999. Of course the 2.8 v6 doesn't have a timing chain, it uses a belt. I'm not sure if it has an oil pressured tensioner or intake flaps but it still makes the noise. To me it sounds like the cams and valve rockers are dry for the first second or 2 until it gets oil pressure and the noise stops. Also this noise is intermittent. Sometime I can leave the car for a week and it won't rattle on start other times it will rattle after 1 night parked up. I saw the video from magic smoke and to be fair it makes a hell of a lot of sense because sometimes the valve might actually hold the oil and other times not. Maybe my engine has a similar oil valve to the V8 that's letting the oil drain out when it shouldn't. Maybe auid V engines all had this faulty valve. It's worth a look if anyone feels like trying it and you've already had the chain job done. I'm interested because I wanna buy an S4 B7 but have been holding back because of this issue.
A great video, and I do the 15 second start ,even after I have just changed my chains,guides , I found the fault to be my aircon compressor siezed solid and broke but not before it gave me correlation fault ,so i have just changed / upgraded all the guides and chains ,to rs4 parts ,I have also changed the cam adjusters ,so hopefully should be good for a bit .
Done the repair at my home in the garage and on my drive . Wasn't to bad to do .
Thank you, you might have saved me from a legal conflict with a car company, as I claimed that they had sold the car without telling about the cam chain "rattle"! I´ll test the 15 sec rule and if it works... wow
I am coming from the Porsche community but have been looking at S4s some time, i had the 5 chain m96 engine with the same dreadful problem. What i did which almost eliminated the problem is run a switch to my fuel pump and turn over engine a couple times. Turn switch back on and start and no rattle whatsoever. Thought id chime in but good video and discussion!
Thanks for the input! Yes, there have been a few workarounds. Just just a shame a workaround is even needed :-(
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Im coming back probably about a year after watching this video, and i can honestly attest to the 15 second rule at least just reducing hard rattle. My thinking on it is just that it primes the fuel system and it just starts a bit faster. Maybe maybe not, but it quite literally makes me sleep better at night.
Thank you for sharing you experiences - this is exactly what this video is for!! Agreed, stopping that rattle does indeed give a big boost for peace of mind :-)
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Interesting discussion. I can say the 15 second rule does seem to work on my b6, interesting to think that maybe its not even the chain in the 1st place.
Change you check valves... I did chains and still had rattle until the check valves were done. Never heard it again!
I love these videos
Thank you!
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It worked. I am amazed.
Thanks for sharing your experiences! :-)
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If I'm not mistaken the reason why there's no rattle with 15 second rule is theres roughly 5-6 chain tensioners in a 4.2 but I know 2 of those chain tensioners are ELECTRONIC tensioners they DO NOT use oil pressure. All the other chain tensioners are oil pressure driven. When I saw a few of these 4.2 inside the top two chain tensioners for both banks have electronic tensioners. I think when you give it 15 seconds it gives it enough time to give it some tension as opposed to none which cuts the rattle.
The problem comes from two things. The audi is loaded with tiny ecu's each that comes ONline with it's own self test. All drawing amps simultaneously. This in conjunction with a fuel pump that has not primed will cause longer crank time. Thus low fuel pressure. The pcm uses voltage reading for injector duty. If volts are unstable at cranking it may inadvertently produce a longer start up. if the ECU voltage is not aloud a few seconds to normalize you are asking for a inefficient start up. Hell By the time fuel pressure is optional and ignition, and pcm timing calculations are worked out . She will work together to quickly spin the engine and build pressure to shorten a few miliseconds the system needs to normalize. 15 sec ruled explained. Somewhat lol. So in conclusion the longer it takes the ignition to happen efficiently. The longer its going to rattle. Rpm+time= oil pressure.
An easy way to check this is to have someone turn the car to accessory and have someone watch the actuator arms for the flaps to see if they cycle back and forth
I installed a fuel cutoff switch on mine so that I could cut the fuel and crank the engine a few times before starting it to prime the system. Without priming it I only ever had a 1-2 second rattle on cold start and nothing on a warm start. With that being said I eventually pulled the engine at 198,000 miles and I only had 2 guides left that were not broke. All the others were either cracked or in pieces.
Interesting! Thanks for sharing!!
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It's easy to isolate the oil pressure drain down problem, pre-start oil system mods/units have been available for high performance cars for many years, both electrical (pump) and mechanical units, and could be an easy fit worthwhile solution for drain-down problems. If the problem really is the inlet flap then changing the cam timing via the VVT software could eliminate it yes.
Excellent video! I have this on my B8 RS4 with the CFSA engine rather than BBK… so it’s still an issue on those too. Using the rule it doesn’t do it at all!
I have a 2003 S4 Tiptonic. Mine has a rattle on start up. I have tried the 15 second rule but unfortunately didn't make any difference. The sound seems to be more of a external metal rattle, which would make more sense in being the intake manifold. I think there are two unrelated issues. Thanks for you video, spot on.
I saw a video where the guy determined it to be a bad oil return valve. Seemed valid to me. If the oil runs out, the timing chain and tensioners are dry and will clack until they have been lubricated. He says it fixed his issue.
Omg I can't wait to try it I just bought a 2008 S4 with141000ml
Congratulations! Be sure to come back and share your experiences with the 15 second rule with other viewers here. This post is mainly about the Comments section and owners sharing their personal experiences on this.
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I currently have a 4.2l 40 valve BFM code engine on a run stand in the shop, fully radiated and charging a battery as it will be in a Boxster soon. I set this up for out of car tuning. It has basic muffling and no flaps there. I use a sound stethoscope and the noise is top engine directly. I think the timing count has to start by sensing the g28 crankshaft position sensor once by crank rotation, and the intake solenoids get triggered by ECU program sequence. These (2004 anyhow) ECU's have a memory for cam positions at last run saved. I think the memory is employed for intake flaps within this 15 seconds. These engines seem to go full relax when shut down, one indicator is the timing belt tensioner is always deflated to loose belt condition at first and normally takes about a half crankshaft revolution for oil to inflate that. I am a believer the noise is the intake flaps. Also remember that you have no vacuum until the edge cranks, and the flap solenoids are vacuum operated.
Really nice input - thanks for sharing! Yes, I also feel that the intake flaps may be a major factor of start-up rattle, and easily confused with cam chain rattle (which is also an issue with these engines of course). This could be barking up the right tree.
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I have just purchased a B6 S4 Avant 6mt. I have the cold start rattle periodically. In my research i have read about the oil check valves as they provide the pressure to the chain tensioners and if a car has had a poor service history ( i dont have the service history) these can become clogged and stick open allowing the pressure to release from the tensioners when parked for a bit. With this information about the software upgrade i will be seeing if i can get this done next week and report back if my issue is fixed. I have already ordered the oil check valve kit and will replace those anyway but i will do the software first. It should be noted that my Avant has 235,000kms on it. Both a machinist that i know and a Audi service manager thats a friend both think the chains guides and tensioners are fine. The machinist who’s a motor builder said if there was going to be a issue it would have happened by this milage
Excellent input - thank you! How did you get n, do you have an update?
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To my knowledge this ecm update does 1 major thing differently. It keeps the vacuum solenoids in the pcv system closed until full vacuum is achieved. Before the solenoids were not energized until about 5 seconds after seeing vacuum and the sound you hear from the variable flaps are actually the pulses of vacuum generated by the pistons attempting create vacuum through the crankcase passing through pcv system. Before the update as the solenoids are open the air in the crankcase simply gets pressurized by the movement of the pistons and that air gets pushed through the pcv system to the intake side of the manifold. This causes the flaps to be pulled back and for via the changes in pressure un till full vacuum is achieved.
I’ve had an 06 B7 S4 for 2 years. To be honest I’ve always given it it 5 or more seconds just to let the fuel prime to make sure I get a clean start. I’ve had turbo’d cars that had problems created with stuttering starts so I always try and let things ‘get set’ before turning the key so it fires instantly, and therefore builds oil pressure fast and tightens the chains. On an earlier comment the theory of ECU’s and sensors taking various times to stabilise and therefore giving time to ‘get set’ again for a crisp start - I’m with that theory. Even just giving it 5 secs and I rarely hear chain rattle - I mainly get flap valve flutter, including at tick over that goes when you push the actuator arm with your finger. My car is in Hong Kong & I doubt it ever got an ECU upgrade to reduce flap rattle at start up - but not worried.
In my view giving this car with a lot of complex sensors and ECU’s, and lots of heavy moving parts, the best chance of a clean start is the key to chain / tensioner health - to a degree. They are still weak components - so I’m still sitting on a time bomb, but it’s a great drive ...
Thank you for sharing - that's exactly what this video is about so we appreciate the input, as we're sure do others as well!!
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Just tried. It work
Thank you for your input! Seems to work for a lot of people here - more often than not!
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Over to you guys - please share your knowledge and experience with others reading this. There's a LOT of knowledge out there, so please do share and put in your thoughts!
I just tried this on my 2006 A6 4.2 and the rattle is now gone. Thanks to the total Technik Team
Good day the 15 sec rule did help me to quiten down the chain rattle or sometimes it was barely noticeable.
However normally at idle I get a tapping sound aswell not chain rattle tho. It goes away as soon as I engage the clutch please help. It randomly does it when it wants but by engaging the clutch it dissappears.
@@amandadevraj728 If it goes away with pressing the clutch, then it is a flywheel rattle, related to the clutch. If you change the flywheel to a dual mass one that is heavy enough, then it will go away.
I can confirm the 15 second rule works on my 2004 S4 B6. Mine has had the chain revision done, but I used to get a short noise at start-up. So I guess that was the intake flap.
Perfect - thank you for sharing the info - that's exactly what this video and discussion is for! Thank you!
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SsgtHolland how much did it cost you to have the timing chain guides and tensioners replaced?
@@pw760 personally it cost me about 5k. Warranty wouldn't cover it. However I still had rattle until I changed my check valves.
Did you do anything about the intake flap? Was it decreasing your torque at all?
If anything, key on sensor continuities are checked. Actuators and or solenoids are also checked but, here the part does an electrical sweep on/off. So electrical range and min/max are checked. Having said that, whatever oil in the mechanical portion is left (depending on how long it sat) is moved or bumped (so to speak) to where it needs to be giving back up lubes until pressure is reached.👈🤔
Always wait cranking until the fuel system is fully primed. The engine starts faster and building oil pressure quicker. It might only be marginal, but recon even the small things counts in the long run with two cold starts every day.
it also works for my a8 with 4.2, 335 hp from 2003 wich has timing belt, but cam tensioner are hidraulic with chain
Very interesting - thanks for sharing!
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I concur with regards to waiting several seconds or priming before starting the engine. The rattling stops when I allow priming for several seconds. I did not know this before viewing the video. It's just my habit to always wait a few seconds before starting any car. What a coincidence. : ]
Excellent! Thank you for sharing - it seems the 15 second rule is proving a good way to stop the initial rattle for a good percentage of owners, which is nice to see.
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I agree with this video,my s4 does the same thing, everytime I wait 10+seconds there is no rattle what so ever every time. Mechanically I can't explain it but it seems to work for me.
Thanks for your input!!
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@@TotalTechnik I like all your videos, great job guys and also I purchased the bbk engine removal from you guys and sort all my chains and tensioners, great video and easy to follow. Keep it up guys 👍👍👍👍
Awesome! Thank you so much for your support - genuinely appreciated!!
Yes, the S4 BBK engine removal video we've had a lot of good feedback on, so glad to hear you liked it too! If you need to get a BBK engine out, that's a very, very useful tool indeed!
Thanks again!
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I think you have it spot on in your video, On my S4 there is 2 types of rattle, a usual mild chain rattle and a clonking metallic noise that I think could be the intake manifold. 15 second rule definitely helps on my car with 120k. Perhaps the tensioners/solenoids are taking up the slack when ignition on, longer left on more slack taken up ?
One more thing I do if the car has been stood for few days I spin the starter then shut off before starting the engine, do this twice then start it up and is always sweet as a nut !
One more thing to consider are the oil check valves on the oil filter return. seems popular in USA to change them as they stick open so the filter housing drains down ?
Thank you for sharing, and glad to hear you have noticed a reduction in rattle using this process!
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Have a 2005 S4 4.2 with 88K on the clock. When it starts with out waiting 15 seconds it sounds like the timing chain is about to tear itself out of the engine. It does help alittle to wait 15 seconds. But saw a video with a guy who said check valves under intake are at fault. That makes sooo much sense, as they would hold the tensioners up and not allow them to back down. As always, cleanlyness is next to godliness at least with engines.
Thank you for your input, very much appreciated!
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Have you made any progress regarding the the check valves? I'm looking at doing them on my car and would like to know if it worked or even helped.
100% works🖒
Great stuff - thank you for sharing!!
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Could it be the oil check valves opening up? I know that those are there to keep oil in the top end of the motor, and when those go bad, it makes the rattle a lot worse (oil doesn't stay in the top of the motor). I had these done right away when I got the car. So perhaps these oil check valves are linked to the ignition somehow? Maybe they go into a position to build oil pressure faster or something. It seems unlikely since I imagine they are also operated on oil pressure. I have a 2005 B6 S4, I never had the rattle for the first 3 months I owned the car in warmer weather (70-80degrees). I moved north and now I get the rattle 50% of the time when starting in the morning (30-40 degrees).
Hi. At the cold start, I had practically no noise. Applying the 15 second rule for some time, it's also very quiet. However, on a hot engine, after a 30-minute break, I sometimes have 1 second rattle. It turns out that the opposite is true for me. Interesting. Audi '05 S4 oil motul x-cess 8100 5w40.
Greetings.
Thanks for sharing!!
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Hi I've owned a b7 rs4 07reg for a year and very much welcome this news. For the past year the car struggled to start from a cold start which was bugging me. I thought it was a relay problem. For the past 2 weeks I have been using the 15 second rule and car starts first time from cold start up. Can't say I've had any engine rattle before 15 second rule or after. Thanks for your information.
The b7 rs4 doesn’t suffer from many of the chain issues the s4 does. I imagine the quick start with turning the key on for a few seconds is due to the fuel pressure building up. You may have excessive fuel pressure loss over time causing a long start due to the pressure having to build up before the motor can start. I am an Audi technician and we see high pressure fuel pumps leak into the crankcase all the time. This can cause the fuel to leak out of the fuel pump so when you go to start the car there is no fuel in the high pressure fuel pumps and it takes longer to build up pressure and start. You can pull the oil cap off and smell for a fuel smell to see if the high pressure pumps are leaking into the crankcase. Hope this helps
my bag of s..t s4,... 9 times out of ten I get the chain rattle,,, I don't like or use the car, hence most times I start the car, it's cold start,, fine when warm,,,,,, since seeing the video and jumping for joy,..iv been doing the 15 sec rule even turn it off and give it another 15seconds and it seems to work for me so far, I have tried it a good few times and so far so good...... it makes 0 seance but seems to work,,, if any change I will post
I have the same issue on my B7 A4 2.0T. I haven't had a chance to try the '15 second rule' yet, I just saw the video and wanted to post in case I forgot about it later. I always assumed it was an oil pressure-issue and pressure takes time. (But I also usually drive older cars that may have wear-based oil pressure issues. So I am used to the noise.) I have come across some 'intake manifold flap delete' kits while researching other parts. I don't know much about them. Getting rid of them seems to be a way to get rid of their flapping noise, if that is the issue. They seem to be marketed towards tuned cars, and I am not sure if they wouldn't degrade the performance of a non-tuned car. (Like a 3" exhaust on a stock engine.) I want to research this issue about more, but since it always goes away so quickly I haven't thought too much about it. Other than I did see a brand of oil filters claiming to reduce the duration of this noise. I now want to check into it further. Here is the link to the intake manifold delete kits:
www.ecstuning.com/Audi-B7_A4-Quattro-2.0T/Search/SiteSearch/intake_manifold_flap_delete/
Thanks for the great discussion on an issue I had previously dismissed. I do like it when things work properly.
Perfect - thank you for sharing and your kind words, much appreciated!
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Leave the coil packs disconnected after oil change !! Turn engine over till Oil light goes out then connect and clear the codes !!! Always do this on Subaru's as well ;)
Is the intake manifold flap similar in execution to the flap in the AFP VR6? If so, I wonder if the bushing/bearing kits for those would fit in the V8.
I have had a total chain and tensioner change on my S4 2004. Tried to learn as much as i could during that operation. I have also had the problem with ratteling intake flap.
When i hear about those who have less ratteling when they wait for 5-10 seconds with the ignition on before crank i can think of two things. Either the flap in the intake manifold, or the electical chain tensioners on each cylinder head. Maybe those tensioners have time to pick up the slack in the chains if you wait 5-10 seconds with the ignition on before start... What do you guys think of that theory...? My problem are solved. Total chain-service and the intake thrown to hell and replaced with a self-built supercharger system.
Thanks for the video!
Hey there! Thanks for sharing your experiences for others - that's exactly what this video is intended for :-)
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I have the 2007 s4 6 speed and since I’ve had it it’s never rattled until I let it sit for a long time like 3 months because of fixing the belt on it but after I charged my battery just to test my car to see if it will crank it did crank and I heard that rattle I thought I blew something but lucky it didn’t do it again . Long as my motor isn’t blown lol it really doesn’t bother me
Absolutely! It's all a matter of opinion. What troubles one person does not bother the next person one bit. Like you say, as long as it works!!
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I had been chalking the the cold start rattle to the oil jet check valves that hold some pressure in the top end of the engine, being faulty or gunked up. Has anyone replaced these oil check valves and cured the cold start rattle? My 2004 S4 has the rattle after being off for less than an hour, so it happens pretty often with mine.
Hi, im new to the B6 S4 but am a huge fan of your work so to start, thanks a million !
I work at Audi and have access to all said articles so I can at all, help, please ask!
I think this works more times than not on my s4 which has had rebuild 45k ago. I do occasionally still hear a rattle even after 20s on a cold start. My question is does this need to be done when there is some temp in the engine? It doesn't seems to rattle but I'm not risking any damage.
And also, I hear a very similar low tone slapping noise when turning the car off , only about 1 second. This happens both after a long haul and shorter journeys ( under 10 miles) if i turn it of within 10 s from parking. The manual recommends after a long haul, wait 2 minutes on tick over which, again, pretty much solves this rattle every time bar a handful. Would this point at the flap?
After watching various videos and reading comments regarding the B7 S4 rattle, I've decided to start my own experiment and over the next few months make/keep some notes and report my findings at the end for anyone who may find it useful. I brought my S4 Avant with 95k and FASH 7months ago and have done 8000 smiles since, with no dramas other than everyday running costs (fuel lol) but that's irrelevant anyway. My car rattles when it wants (for upto 2 seconds) and cold starts make no difference as its rattled at 13C+ and I've heard nothing -3c which makes me think its something to do with pressure?? however I'm no mechanic or Audi specialist so may well be wrong? However on a personal level, temperature doesn't seem to be the main issue for my S4. I'm intrigued more than anything to know more myself because I'm sure its the main thing that puts people off buying them or are they are becoming that rare??? Because I've not seen another since buying mine... which along with the v8 were the 2 main reasons I opted for an S4 over s3
Hey there! Thank you for your input and sharing - that's exactly what this video discussion is about!!
The term cold start means that the engine is cold. It does not have any relation to ambient temperature. So many people will experience a rattle when the engine is cold (i.e. left overnight or for a long time). When re-starting when the engine is warm or partially warm often it will not rattle, depending on the nature of the issue at hand, which is outlined in the video and the comments here.
Yes, the rattle issue can indeed be a factor that puts a lot of people off of buying these superb cars. A shame really as all things need to be taken into consideration, i.e. no regular cambelt changes but one big timing chain job instead at a much higher interval = not a massively dissimilar price overall?
But yes, the V8 is a huge bonus!!!
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All this should apply to a 2005-2006 A6 with the 4.2 40 valve non-fsi correct?
I am buying a B6 A4 tomorrow. I’ll let you know.
Michael Wauters isnt this about the 4.2L
I meant to write S4. By the way. I tried not using the 15 second rule and heard the rattle, used it and the rattle was gone. 👍
My experience, this works. Im not sure if anyone noticed this but when i turn key on ignition (one before actually starting the car) i can hear noise as if something was pumping something it "pumps" for about 15 seconds, its not constant, it sounds like when you use "manual" air pump for bicycle tyres (but deeper and quiter sound) and then it stops. Im not sure if this is some other system but each time i dont wait for it to stop i get a slight chain rattle, each time i wait for it i get 0 chain rattle. My own experience!
Fuel pump probably
@@Frederic91fr yes i also hear the fuel pump, but that isnt noise im refering to, its something else 👍
Hmmm...great investigation and summary. Rattling could also be caused by the same aliens that produce crop circles.
Yes, that crossed my mind too!! :-)
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Really interesting , I have just got a s4 which had a chain replaced 35k ago
I get what I assumed was a chain rattle on hot or cold starts , even if the car only sits for an hour. The car has no rattle once running and drives fine
I am wondering if mine is intake related as that would make more sense than a chain that rattles every start then drives fine
I’ll be checking to see if the update has been applied and if not I’ll report back if it improves things
Thank you for you input, and definitely come back and let everyone here know any updates! Seems to be a really popular topic, so please be sure to come back and share any more info with others here. Thank you!
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I recently bought an S4 which also (allegedly) had its timing chains done. Every now and then on start up (warm or cold) I also get a short slapping/rattle sound. You think this is probably the intake flap? If so, what should be done about it?
I have an 06 S4 and it has a regular turn key but I still hold the brake down when I turn my key it seems to help with the slap I hear sometimes from a cold start. I don't even hear anymore
Interesting! The brake should not really affect this so interesting to hear that. Maybe run some more tests where you do and don't do it and check that it's definitely not a coincidence, and post back here with your findings for others.
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The oil change makes sense because of the oil check valves and the sprayer in the valley
I get intermittent vibrations I think it’s the center support bearing on the drive shaft. How do I diagnose it
Esp lights up and the RPM is Fluctuating, is that a normal problem on theese s4 v8? What Could the problem be?
I'm looking at this video cause I'm looking into buying a v8 s4, however I have noticed this with my Q5 3.0T, BUT I put my front defroster on and I notice a difference in my rattle. It. Could definitely be a coincidence with the 15 seconds but I truthfully don't really know but it does appear to reduce the rattle
Thank you for sharing you experiences!
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this is off topic but I couldn't ask at the other video - it looks like the car you start has a replacement car stereo, would you mind sharing which make and model that is? it looks nicer than some of the all touchscreen replacements i usually see as it has some knobs and buttons and fills the space better. i prefer some knobs and buttons to all touchscreen. hope you don't mind filling me (and all of us) in on that. cheers.
You mean the one shown in the main 15 second rule video? That is the standard RNS-E which was the factory standard sat nav option on the B7 S4. The B6 S4 had RNS-D earlier on, but some later ones also had this same RNS-E. But it's standard Audi factory equipment, not aftermarket. Not touch screen though :-(
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is it possible at all, that when the car is turned off, something in the oil filter housing shuts and when ignition turned on it opens, giving it 15 seconds once ignition turned on, gives time for oil to drop down on to chains??? 🤔 .... just bored on the bog and unlucky enough to have a s4.. what I know about mechanic,s you could fit on the back of a stamp, so if im way off then so be it😁 but this 15 second thing is 100% working for me so far👌
Seems to work on my b6
Excellent, thanks for sharing!!
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For what it's worth I changed the starter on my B6 S4 as it was struggling when cold outside. New unit spins faster and it's reduced the rattle. When parked uphill it's sometimes completly gone!!!
I don't know why ... maybe the faster starter allow the oil pump to build oil pressure faster before the actual start ???
Thanks for sharing! Yes, this make logicial sense. The new starter motor will be quicker to fire up the engine and a little more immediate taking up any initail slack in the chain. Like you say, this should not stop it but yes makes sense it would reduce the time element.
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I've had my 04 S4 Cab since 2007 and do notice the rattle for maybe half a second at start-up, for many years now.
Only since coming across your terrifically detailed videos have I looked into this further. I've recently tried the 15 second theory but not noticed any appreciable difference. However, I have found I can avoid this by just giving a couple of short twists of the key, not long enough to fire it up, but just enough to buildup some oil pressure, before actually starting the car, and this stops the rattle.
Is this a good idea?
Makes no difference or may be slightly worse for the engine. Essentially you’re just making initial engine start slightly longer by bumping the starter and turning the motor over a few times before starting. I’d just turn the key on long enough for the fuel pump to prime then start
Good idea. Go with it.
@@traceerickson3783 Turning the engine over with the starter to get the oil up to the chains is FAR FAR better than letting the engine start and run with the chains essentially dry. Yes you can argue that you are halving the life of your starter, but in relation to priming the chains, it is a good idea! If doing as Malcolm has suggested (I've done it quite a lot, especially if it hasnt run for a while), then you can run the risk of over priming the fuel system, which can lead to a lumpy start until its burnt it all off, but not a big issue.
I have an '08 A6 4.2 and I notice a rattle on cold starts and after the car has been sitting for a while. I'm assuming this will resolve the issue for the 4.2 A6? Thanks in advance!
It's a different engine in the C5 A6 to the B6/B7 S4 unfortunately. The S4 is BBK, whereas the A6 4.2 is likely BAS.
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Am looking to buy a spares or repair S4. The car is advertised as timing chain problem but then he has also stated there is a misfire in more than one cylinder. Is the misfire related to the timing chain or this something that needs to be fixed separately
It could absolutely be related, but likewise it could be other things as well. Could be worn cam adjusters, for example, which is usually a more expensive repair than cam chain followers (but both are engine out). It's one of those things, maybe yes, maybe no :-(
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I dont know what is it with audi and chain rattles. My C5 A6 has a timing belt in the front and a chain on the back. They have this rattle too, and it gets worse the longer the car sits.
Total Technik - I am just now discovering your video's about the cam chain issue, 15 second rule, ecm update on the solenoids, etc. I see that these are mostly all from 4 years ago. It is now 2023. I cannot find a "final verdict" that you have made on the start-up rattle issue? I have a 2005 S4 Cabriolet with 89,000 miles, 4.2L V8 of course. I have been dealing with a myriad of oil leaks (valve covers, oil filter housing gaskets, etc.), but now am worried I should sell the car because the timing chain guides have not been replaced and I realize failure would basically ruin the car all together based on the current used value. It seems that the timing chain guide replacement cost here in the States has gone up significantly and now removing the engine at the dealer is getting quoted at $10,000 US. Wondering if you are still considering the amount of time of the startup rattle as an indicator that I may be needing the guides replaced or not? Thanks in advance.
...unfortunately I don’t know what produces the rattle, But with the 15 seconds rule it disappears. I hope it helps to prolong the life of the tensioner because I don’t have the work done. My car is 150.000km, around 98.000 miles.
Thanks@Kris Nicholson
Does this 15 sec rule apply to the rs4 v8 ?
Hi ,nice to meet you,love your videos.i think I've come up with a brilliant idea about this 15 sec rule.do you think a remote start with the option of (wait to start feature ) just like a diesel has to .do you think this might work??
Still have the rattle on my B6 even if I wait more than 15 seconds. Maybe it works on the B7 but doesn't on the B6 ? It could explain the diversity in results ?
they both have the same engine.
In my s4 b6 cabrio it works
Does this flood the engine? My S4 can’t start when I do this
No, this will not flood the engine. Could your S4 have a battery issue by any chance?
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I got a A8 4.2 with 53,000 miles on it. Cold start rattle about every 5- 10. The bugger is Its very warm here n Calif during the summer and I have heard the "cold Start rattle even when the engine had been driven earlier the same day. But not often. 1st start in the AM is a guess whether will it make noise or not. The thought of pulling the motor at 53K and fixing it is a horror. Do the cam chains, then what else, might as well start replacing anything else that would fail at the time adding 2k more. What was Audi thinking???? They have had years to address this issue.
I feel your pain!! I agree completely that having the chain arrangement at the rear of the engine is a massive design flaw. Many makes and models of cars run cam chains instead of belts and the clever arrangement is to have tham at the front. Still a big job to replace, full bumper and slam panel removal including radiators etc - BUT the engine can stay in the car so a much smaller job. Unfortunately this age of engine is by far the end of the Audi cam chain rattle story - it is affecting a LOT of Audi engine models. A REALLY bad flaw of Audi's engine design, which otherwise is generally so good!!
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Hello, u speak french? I wait 15 sec in cold start in my b7, i have less rattle chain since
Hey there! No, sorry we do not speak French, but glad to hear your rattle has reduced!!
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Im looking at purchasing a 2005 S4 that has 56,500 miles on it. Should I be scared of this car due to the dreaded timing chain guide failure or not?
Hey there! Short answer is no, definitely not. They are truly fantastic cars, but they do have this quirk. The low miles will stand you in good stead, but there are no guarantee's. Expect minor rattle on initial start up.
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Total Technik I do outside sales for NAPA and plan on running Liqui Moly oil in it, which my import specialty shops said is best for that motor and possibly run a 10w40 weight in it which is better lube for the chain guides
I know Im late out but Im 17 year old and I bought a Audi s4 b7 but I’m kind of scared if somethings going to happen, it hasn’t been driven so long but I’m still scared, should I be scared or should I be calm? Please answer
Hey there. Nothing to bee too worried about. I'd be a lot more scared of the insurance price for driving an S4 at 17, ouch!! Best of luck with the car, hope it turns out to be a good one for you :-)
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@@TotalTechnik thanks for answer! Thanks now I feel calm about it. Yeah it will cost but it’s worth it. I will start with the 15 second rule and see if it works. I make sure to write to you if it works, it seems to work for some people.
While chasing other issues (which was a vacuum leak causing hard start on warm car) with my S4B6, I did have my ECU updated, dealer provided ECU update ChangeLog, which seems to contain similar information as on 13:29 with some extras: i.imgur.com/xNVnQns.jpg
Awesome info - thanks for sharing! Out of interest, were you experiencing the rattle upon cold start on your S4? If so, is it now gone?
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@@TotalTechnik It's like weather... comes and goes... It's usually there and more audible in cold winter, first 1-2s only, but as you and others on the internet indicated, that is normal. Chains and tensioners and other fun stuff at the back of the engine were done two years ago right after purchasing the car. Now it's like a toy, as I live pretty much next to my job and walk on foot. Still have to try 15s of waiting "trick", the "sad part" is that my steering wheel is in "correct" side :D so I cannot put the key first then get into car.
Hey there! Again, thanks for the input! There would be many reading here who would be interested if you gave the 15 second trick a quick try to see if you notice the difference. You've had the software upgrade and so it may well make no difference to you, which is what I'm sure people will be wanting to know :-)
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@@TotalTechnik Personally, I tried it once, today and did not feel or hear any difference. Car was sitting for half of the week, waited for 15s before starting, small rattle for the first second, then fine as always.
Hi there! Thanks for your input. Can I ask how/where you found your vacuum leak? I’ve got a hard starting B7/S4 when warm as well.
I once saw a guy fit a camera on the intake manifold. I wonder if someone could do the same and see the flap vibrate.
I'd like to see that for sure!
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Is the RS4 4.2 and the S4 4.2 the same engine ?
Unfortunately not, no :-(
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Mine never rattles. I do have rs4 chain guides through
That would definitely help :-) Thanks for sharing your experiences.
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Just get the loads of people who’ve had a de-flap to confirm it…..
Turning the electrical system on for 15 seconds will not cause the mechanical oil pump to pump oil faster or sooner.
Fast foward to 2021 , i heard this don't do 💩
Have a read through the comments section and judge for yourself. You may be surprised!! :-)
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