Why direct drive is not automatically better than bowden tube
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 24 เม.ย. 2024
- More and more direct drive kits are available for 3D printers, so you be forgiven for assuming direct drive is easily superior to bowden tube. In this video we explore the merits for each design, including when and why you might like to convert between the two and why modern direct drive advancements are negating the downsides.
0:00 Introduction
0:44 Direct drive and bowden tube 3d printers explained
4:10 Strengths and weaknesses of each setup
7:17 Reasons to convert to bowden tube
9:00 Reasons to convert to direct drive
10:05 Why do many new 3D printers currently use a bowden tube?
10:45 Why are direct drive conversions becoming so popular?
12:01 The hybrid: cable drive extruders
12:39 Conclusion: Which do you prefer?
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This is super odd to me... I got into 3d printing back when just about everyone had direct drive, and the hype was all about converting to bowden to make your toolhead lighter. I did the John Lawrence bowden conversion on my printrbot back then, and it made a huge difference. Very interesting to see that these days, the cheap printers and general build conventions seem to make bowden builds so much more standard!
I wonder if flexible filament made the difference. Bowden tube setups often struggle with them for obvious reasons.
bowden for me just cant hack it. Speed means little if you can't print hotter better. Long retraction, stringing, pressure in the bowden, flexibles, etc...useless in bowden without headaches.
all metal hotend...direct drive.
Klipper and input shaping gets all the speed back, with direct drive.
Everyone fell for the hype and then realised it wasn't worth it. I converted my AM8 years ago and after messing around for years trying to get bowden to work properly I switched back. I think most people had no idea what they were doing and fell pray to youtubers pushing things they really didn't understand either.
@@elobiretv I've worked with both. My bowden tube printer had basically no problems with feeding. It managed in the order of 100 hours in a single print job at .15mm. I suspect they really aren't that different if you're not trying to cheap out somewhere.
One reason to convert to direct drive that was not mentioned explicitly in the video is the ability to print flexible filaments like TPU. These are very difficult to get working properly in a bowden setup.
Depends on the TPU variant. The stiffer types print just fine.
Printing Ninjaflex all day long with a BMG/MS bowden setup like many others.
probably because that reason more of a myth since filament manufacturers seem to have figured their formulas out. most TPU can print just as badly from a bowden as it does from a direct drive nowadays.
I use a titan clone in my ender3 but with bowden tube , printing tpu at rhe same speed of pla (50 - 60 mm/s), the key of tpu: yuo must deshidrate yuor tpu filament
@@nonchip wrong but ok. (as a side note. if you have a tiny ass printer like the ender 3 then you don't know what the problems of bowden are. and you need to shut the f up in advance. don't even think about getting a responce from me. you don't count. you don't get a say. throw away your toy and build a real printer.)
just a thing. filaflex for example, might call itself tpu or a flexible fillament. but it's more pla then tpu. (it's one of those fancy mixes you are spouting about)
yeah ofcourse bowden can print it.
also if you print anything thicker then a millimeter or 2 the end part is not flexible at all.
YOU CANNOT PRINT FLEXIBLE FILLAMENT FROM BOWDEN!!!!!!!! stop fooling yourself. there is a reason your flexible prints look like dogshit.
go print the good old ninjaflex from back in the day. and i'll quietly laugh while you cry in dispair.
Direct and to the point, like I pefer my extruders.
Swapped all my printers from bowden to DD and wont be going back
The easier tuning, quicker retracts (they add up over time) and more responsive flow control make up for any minor downsides
As for weight, sure on a single z bedflinger its an issue, but any well built modern machine with properly tuned modern firmware can handle it.
Im slinging around a LGX, hotend, dual fans, dual MGN9 carriages, bed probe etc on machines with klipper and input shaper (which is also comming to RRF) and pushing near 7k accel for some moves at print speeds of 140mm/s (flow rate capped)
Yeah, and that accel is way higher than the Ender 3 defaults. Granted they are using different kinematics systems, it still proves that bowden is really not worth it. That being said, reducing weight is critical to getting the accelerations higher, which means you spend more time at your max speed.
this comment right here is all that needs to be said on this subject. there's nothing wrong with having a bowden, but if you're going to seriously argue that a direct drive is not superior in almost every single way and set up, then you need to go sit down and let the adults talk. it's that simple.
@Suicide Kyd says the guy with the username of a 12 year old fortnight player. leave the discussion to those of us who didn't have their printers paid for by their mommy lol.
Actually rrf has now input shaper in its 3.3. released a few days ago. I did not test it yet. But i have the hardware here to do it soon.
@Suicide Kyd really proving that adult thing lolol
I always end up finding your videos being the most education and in depth while sticking to the point. Thank you for all you do! You've definitely been my favorite channel when it comes to 3D printing
I've owned almost a dozen 3d printers over the years and I've upgraded pretty much every one of them to direct drive with absolutely no perceivable drawbacks. I don't get noticeable ghosting/ringing and at this point in my experience that single downside to direct drive almost sounds like a myth. The weight of the print head seems to have very little effect on the overall quality of my prints even at some of the faster speeds.
There are so many pros to direct drive and the only con can be incredibly relative.
Pros:
-consistent extrusion
-less tweaking of settings
-little to no stringing
-easier to print flexible filament
-easier to load/unload filament (something a lot of people don't talk about)
Cons:
-increased ghosting (maybe?/not always)
In my experience and in a lot of my friend's experience, converting to direct drive has pretty much always been a universal improvement. I'm at the point that I really don't understand why so many printers come with a stock bowden setup at all. On top of that there's a lot of direct drive setups now that are very lightweight so that eliminates the only remaining downside of the arrangement. I think in reality direct drive IS inherently better and it's only downside isn't even entirely inherent to all direct drive setups.
And which direct drive / hotend combo do you recommend for a low price?
i think the reason lots of printers are still produced bowden style is that its just what they know, they can continue to refine that setup to reduce cost, resulting in lots more people picking up the hobby, now for 200 bucks you can get setup with a decent printer with good print area.
@@SandwichMitGurke E3DV6 Clones for me. I've been running nothing but since 2017.
I recently acquired an Ender 3 and an Ender 3 V2 and after 3 weeks, I am currently modifying them to accomodate V6 Hot-ends. The creality one is great if you don't mind putting a lot of work into it every so often. My V6's run like champs with very little to no maintenance and for a very long time.
@@MHTSAPAS nice. I've bought a CR10 like style all-metal hotend (NF Smart). But I can't assemble it yet because I need to new x-carriage ..
@@SandwichMitGurke creality sprite is low cost and low weight with decent quality. If you are willing to spend more the E3d Hemera is a great choice
Nice video. There is one point that's missing in my opinion: Linear Preasure Advance vs. s-Curve Acceleration. Sadly you can not use both at the same time. Linear Preasure Advance compensates for the delay between changes in feeder movement and reaction of the hotend, improving print quality (sharper edges). The correction you need is much higher on bowden setups, so it is much more needed there, while on direct drive the effect is much less. As you have to calibrate each type of filament anyway, Linear Preasure Advance is not very comfortable to use - so with a direct extruder you can get still good results without spending time for adjusting it.
s-Curve Accelaration smooths out the acceleration, which reduces ringing esp. on heavy y-moving printbeds. So with printers beyond 200by200 mm² size it is a very nice feature to activate.
So on printers with y-moving bed ("bedshakers") it is more interesting to use s-Curve Acceleration than using Linear Preasure Advance, if you use a direct drive. If you also want a very flat bed (thick milled casted aluminium) this also aplys to smaler printers. So on bedshaker-design you should always consider direct drive. A bowden setup is senseless (exept for very smal printers).
With Deltas and z-moving bed (or z-moving x-y-gantry) a bowden setup is much more interesting vs. classic direct extruders, as the low moving mass is much more important (and there is no need for sCurve). Of course, with modern extruders like the Orbiter you can use the advantages of a direct extruder, ( I am quite happy you pointed that out in your video), while increasing weight only a bit. You might use a little less speed there - but for printing time over all, this might be already mostly be compensated by the less retraction you need. Anyway, with the most limiting factor in printspeed on this types of printers for PLA being the part cooling, the little mass added by an orbiter might not be relevant at all...
In my opinion Creality mostly use bowden extruders to use single z, to reduce the cost. Which is O.K. fo make it more affordable, but as you can upgrade to dual-z for about $15 it is the one upgrade I recommend strongly before changeing to a direct extruder.
P.S.: I do not totaly comply with the definitions of the parts. "Extruder" by definition is the complete unit that extrudes the filament, beginning with the feeder, through the bowden tube (on a bowden extruder or inside some of the direct extruders) and the hotend. So it starts at entry of the feeder and ends at the nozzle. I prefer using this definition, as while "extruder" in 3d printing often is used as synonym to the feeder, this is not the case in other technics like injection molding. So it avoids confusion if you use "Extruder" for the whole (like "Bowden Extruder" and "Direct Extruder"), but feeder, bowden and hotend if you refer to the single parts. So in my opinion "Bondtech BMG extruder" is not an extruder, but a "Bondtech BMG feeder", as it is not the whole extruder but only a part of it.
It can become very confusing, if you sometimes the word "extruder" for the whole, but sometimes only for one part. I struggled a lot with this as I got into 3d printing...
Scurve fork of klipper can do pressure advance and scurve accleration at the same time
Thank you for posting, very helpful
Your explanation of a direct drive and bowden tube is spot on. Also the fact that you showed what "ringing" was makes it much clearer why we may need to upgrade to a different drive. For now my creality CR-10 printer I use a bowden tube, but I keep it as short as possible. This appears to help with retraction. Thanks for all you do, keep the videos coming!!
I'm glad you added the remote DD options in. It is worth considering how to refine the tech with dual drive and different types of gearing.
Great video as always Michael. I have no issues with my current bowden setup after putting over 5 kg of PLA and TPU through it with only having two blockages in all that use.
Bowden seems to be a cost-cutting measure of printer manufactures. lower mass means getting away with flimsier frames. Also, the design time of the extruding system can be greatly reduced with a Bowden because one does not need to squeeze numerous parts and mechanisms in a small print head. ^^
While they would get away with flimsier frames, you can actually see the opposite in reality: Look at all the old i3 clones, that used to be popular. They have thinn, flimsy acrylic or wooden frames, but still use direct drive (which is the reason, that bowden mods for those aren't too unpopular). The frame on the Ender 3 and CR-10 in comparison is incredible sturdy and makes modding it to direct drive easy enough. The old MK8 must have been extremely cheap to make, but their weight isn't all that low and printers like the Geeetech i3 Pro W are just too wobbly. Since the M8 rods were also horribly bad, you didn't notice the ringing though^^
@@SchwachsinnProduzent The frame on the Mendel style Creality printers are sturdy indeed. I was quite surprised when felt the Ender 3. But the single lead screw on the old Enders is quite questionable, to say the least.
@@johnkim3858 You may find it questionable, but as an owner of three Creality machines, I can assure you, that the single lead screw works perfectly well, if you bolt everything together right. I even prefer it to most dual leadscrew setups, since I can just install a big knob on the end of it to move the Z-axis in the unpowered state, without having to worry about keeping the screws in sync with each other. The wobblier frames need two, because they don't keep the square without them, but even my CR-10 - which isn't a small machine - doesn't move in any way due to the "missing" second leadscrew. In theory the second motor would allow it move the z-axis quicker, but let's be honest: The z-axis doesn't move fast anyways due to the way fdm works.
@@SchwachsinnProduzent I agree with the rather elegant user experience with a single z-axis motor. I had some personal experience with the MakerGear M3 which had a knob on to move the z-axis. Also, the maker space at my current school has a Prusa Mini which has a cantilevered x-axis, as many people know.
Both machines did cantilever construction. Unlike the Ender 3, the Prusa Mini is designed in a way that the belt pulls the x-axis together. On the other hand, the MakerGear M3 has fastened the y-axis plate so that the fasteners are usually at tension, again, unlike the Ender 3. The ender 3 has a somewhat cantilevered x-axis fastened in a way that the bolts have to withstand the torsional slipping of two flat surfaces.
I think this kind of construction has similarities with wood furniture without joinery. It is going to work fine for a while but probably loosen over time. Of course, the user can tighten it and be fine for few weeks but the time will come rather quickly to tighten the bolts again. Also, the bolts that join the x-axis v-slot extrusion and metal brackets are not that accessible.
I still give credit to the Ender 3 because they put the heaviest components close to the lead screw. I also, agree for most people printing trinkets, astatic pieces, hangers, etc at relatively conservative speeds, accelerations, and layer heights: a slightly skewed axis is not much of a problem.
Always that one "everyone out to rip us off" guy.
I love that you used a Tevo Tornado at 1:37 as your bowden printer example. I"ve been using my gold Tornado as my primary printer for 2 years and I'm always happy to see it over some other options you could have chosen. Thanks for another great video!
I made the conversion to the modular direct drive setup you outlined and have been very happy with it. I am satisfied with slower print speeds, but am still having some issues with the first two base layers on larger prints. And yes, I painstakingly relevel the glass base on my CR-10 Mini before eack print but it will still have an inconsistent layer here and there. Just the fun of the "sport". Way better anti stringing performance.
Great video! I've always wondered what that "ringing" was. I never knew what it was called or why it was happening, and I never really gave it any thought and always assumed it was just because I was printing too fast, and it was just one of the unavoidable facts of life when printing. Now I'm thinking about lightweight parts and learning what retraction can do.
I think the main benefit of direct drive is that you can use flexible filaments.
I'm pretty sure that's possible even with bowden. You just need a Extruder with well constrained path for filament. There are also 3D printable options if you don't want to buy a new extruder
@@F2_CPB the main thing is that direct drives can generally print flexibles at normal speeds, while Bowdens generally have to print slower.
@@seville2k I second this , my ender 3 dose flexible material good but at like 20mm/s at max . My I 3 dose it way better , and I don't think the ender 5 would work well tubes too long . I picked up the i3 ripoff just for tpu
The main benefit is the more precise control that you have over the filament, that’s true regardless of the type of filament. If you can accommodate the added mass at the print head without introducing ringing artifacts, you will see overall better print quality with less need for calibration than is possible with a Bowden tube.
@@robnixon515 like anything else that comes down to price I would Imagen , at least for the most part, my ender 5 might be a good candidate for a direct drive unit then .
Great video as always 👍
I'm in the direct drive corner and with klipper and input shaping, you remove most of the gosting when printing
Thanks for sharing your experience with all of us 👍😀
I love your videos. I've had my 3D printer for a week now and its impressive how deep the rabbit hole can go! I've managed to tweak quite a lot and i'm getting good quality prints, with decent printing times.
A hybrid direct drive conversion looks really interesting.
Nice explanation and comparison. I have an Ender 3, an Ender 3 Max and a CR-10 S4 and they all print beautifully with Bowden setups. The filament is easy to load, I have good access to the hotend when it's time to do a bit of maintenance and the cost to replace worn parts is minimal. I certainly wouldn't say a Bowden setup is better than a direct drive but right now, I don't have a problem or need that changing to a direct drive would address.
Switched from a Bowden to a direct drive a year ago and never thought about changing the retraction distance, Thanks for opening my eyes about this!
I'd love to see some crazy developments in flex drive extruders like we're seeing now in DD. The concept is awesome, but it still has a long way to go to become superior.
Glad you mentioned the Zesty Nimble! I've loved mine, installed on my Frankenstein homebuilt printer. Just goes and goes, although with the worm drive, it seems like it spins the feed stepper a lot, after getting used to watching direct drive models for years... :)
@10:10 Why do some manufacturers prefer bowen? Cost. Many printers have only one stepper motor on the Z-axis. Essentially, a cantilever. When a direct dive is used, the forces are greater due the the increased weight, and a second Z-axis motor is needed. Using a bowden drive with its less weight means a company can do away with the second Z-axis stepper motor.
also nylon wheels which cant handle heavy load reliably.
Sorry this just isn't true. Tests have been done to show there less than 0.005 mm of sag from adding the weight of direct drive to the single side Z Axis. This is s myth that has been blown out of proportion with no numerical evidence.
@@RFi731 they are polypropylene tho. Not Nylon.
@@F2_CPB They are normally delrin which is pom and some upgrade rollers are Polycarbonat.
I find this answer indicative to the reason 3D printer technology sucks so bad. Because everythings such a race to the bottom, no one can be bothered to innovate and create something truly special. They all gotta keep using the same dime store brand motors that have been used for literally decades. The thought of spending 40 dollars more to have a superior, stronger, lighter weight driver would cost too much and no one would bother when they can go "durr hurr look at my conversion kit" and they spend 20 dollars for a couple screws and a bracket and get exactly what they paid for. rant over
You are the best! You've helped me so much with my Ender 3, Thanks for the hard work you put into your videos.
Great video of the two types of Extruder setups.
i will be changing my PTFE setup to direct drive on my Enders 3 v2
as i have had nothing but problems.
5 years i have been using direct drives and no problems
i think the issue why the "hybrid" option isn't as common is that it's hard to imagine a rotational drive cable to be any more rigid when it comes to e.g. retraction inaccuracies than the tiny bit of flex in a decently sized bowden tube. it's simply another possible source of error
Glad you mentioned the Y axis on "i3" designs being the limiting factor for ringing.
Pancake steppers on gear drive extruders and printed mounts (instead of machined AL) go a long way to lightening the X loading as well.
Yeah I always thought it was funny how people would talk about direct drive causing ringing because you added a few ounces to the printhead... Meanwhile their printer design involves slamming around an entire heated bed, giant piece of glass, and the entire part you're printing.
It's really a weak argument to say that it has a large effect on ringing when you have $200 flash forge printers printing in schools near 24/7 that print just as fast with zero ringing issues.
Essentially what he said is direct drive is superior for controlling the filament, but the only cost is potentially ringing... But what he failed to leave out is that you can control this ringing with a feedback loop, or just making the printer more rigid.
The other option has less control over the filament which means you have less control over printing. Period. If you can't control the filament accurately, you can't print accurately. And you can dial in that machine to be absolutely perfect for right now with that filament. But as soon as you change filaments to one that has slightly different properties of flex within the bowden tube... Well you're going to be that much off.
@@TravisFabel spot on my man, good comment.
Mine has a half sized/pancake on the X axis, and I saw an improvement going from 50mm/s with a very light direct drive (also with pancake, no gears, also a great way to burn out motors) to 150mm/s with my Bowden upgrade. I think they should go with duel motors on the bed if you want much faster printing (mine tops out around 220-250mm/s realistically, but that's only for smaller nozzle sizes like .3-.5mm). I also have my motors over-driven on the current more than they should, but the X axis has a fan and the bed motor doesn't seem to get too insanely hot. Also my X axis I don't run the fan much anymore, unlike I had to when using the direct drive. This is on an i3 Prusa style clone.
I had a Bowden tube setup which printed very well and rarely had jams. I recently changed to Micro Swiss because I wanted to try flexible filaments and heard DD was better for this type filament than Bowden tube. The DD is amazing. Filament changes are easy and I found setting it up was pretty easy for this newbie. I haven't tried flexible filaments yet. I totally agree with mass being a factor but am happy with what I consider to be an upgrade. I believe we'll see more improvements in this area. Thanks so much for your videos which teach me alot about this challenging hobby.
Excellent explanation. Just would like to add that bowden especially have its strengths when it comes to dual hotend setups for multi material extrusion....
Just upgraded to micro swiss direct drive kit on my cr10s pro v2 (with bl touch). Pretty straight forward. I don’t have to worry about the PTFE melting and causing clogs anymore. Plus better control on retraction. Made a vid on the assembly process to help others making the same upgrade.
Man you are so perfect in explaining !
I am mostly into biology but Ive taken note of how to make tuts !!
Im upgrading from an i3clone to an Ender5, TH-cam suggested your video to me. Kudos !
I love these videos! I've been professionally using 3D printers for around 8 years now, and have developed some personal rules of thumb with various 3D printer things, but you delve deep into the inate properties of these various parts and processes in such a detail-oriented manner that I gain new language to describe what I mean. Thanks, and keep up the good work
Great video. 👍
It's given me more to think of.
New and shiny parts to try is always good 😀
I had no idea you were lawsy! I had a solid doodle as well and used your designs to start creating my own hot end mounts and extruder mounts. Awesome!
@Teaching Tech I'm using bowden and I also have the Zesty Nimble hybrid.
Appreciate the perspective. I am new to 3d printing. Just trying to nail down why I keep getting clogs in my hot end on my bowden tube printer. About to try the micro swiss all metal hot end. 🤞
I have an Aldi Cocoon Create. The first major mod I did to it was to convert it to Bowden drive, but I could never quite get the quality I was after. So I recently fitted an Orbiter extruder and designed the mount, etc, myself to make it as compact and light as I could get it. I'm, still sorting out a few bugs with it right now but I reckon it'll end up a better thing.
Thanks again for the good technical information in your videos.
as the owner of a Zesty Nimble, I'm really happy with the thing, it might have a couple of design flaws, in the way it grips the filament, that being said, I also need to try the flex3drive ones that can use a Bondtech dual gear next.
Your mk5 extruder for the Solidoodle helped me so much back then! Thank you!
I was looking for a quick succinct tutorial that I can refer to a friend who wants to get into 3d printing. This fits prefect. Thanks!
Another downside of bowden - there are more potential points of failure. I've had the coupler on my microswiss strip the ptfe tube several times during long prints, causing the filament to pop out the top of the hot end. If i don't catch it early on I lose the print....
Got an LGX sitting on my desk just waiting to be installed now.
Yep.. Bowden tube pressures just make the whole damn thing seem silly. Blowing off the tubes on a big print with ABS or Polycarb is a common and expensive issue.. Tired of the nonsense myself...
@@blaqlabspodcast5816 Blowing off the tube just hints at issues with your melting speed.
If the hot end can't keep up with the feed rate, the filament will find a way to release pressure...
Have a look at your hotend and nozzle and check, if the hotend can really keep up.
Running the flexdrive G5 with the printrite bed cover and its great for higher printspeeds with the low mass and good control over extrusion
Been thinking of going the DD route on my CR10-S5 ... it seems my S5 is a good candidate :-) Thanks for your valuable videos!!!
Direct drive conversion on my Ender 5 Pro was a game changer to remove at least 90% stringing. Huge benefit for my setup.
If you had 90% stringing then your problem was your slicer settings not the bowden setup.
a good extruder (creality pro is enough) combined with with as short as possible bowden of a tube, which preferably is the good capricorn one, results in 5mm retraction distance with no stringing and good enough for flexible filaments at slow speeds. nothing bad with dd or bowdem both work if you tinker just a little.
converted my Creality to direct drive. Motion system is plenty powerful, accuracy is still good, I had no negatives but positives. Now I have less spare parts around, overall less stringy prints and filament doesn't kink anymore, neither gets brittle in the tube anymore. For me at least, only benefits
Do u use dual Z thread bars?
Some years ago, conversion to bowden was the rage. Flexible filaments, like TPU are awesome though and make me glad I kept direct drive.
Would sure like to try out a BIQU H2.
I was a little out of this community now and I am surprised when I see the title this video in my feed. People were strongly pushing bowden tube printers, the only time I see the reverse is for the CR-10.
@@someonestolemyname I have one of each, bowden and direct. I still prefer the bowden most of the time because it has lower inertia at the print head. I can rip through prints on standard filaments.
Those hybrids look dope! Would love to see a breakdown/review/comparison of some :)
@Aaron Morrow Thanks for the tip! I'll have to look up that video :)
I am A maker and I have come up with a new Bowden tube fitting to replace the push to connect fittings and would like to have you try them out. they can be found on Capricorn tube web site. they are called lemonade fittings. We took lemons and made lemonade. Thank you for all the great reviews I have been a fan of yours for years keep up the great work keeping us informed and empowered
Still loving my ender 3 with klipper. The quality is great, and I can even print TPU on stock Bowden, but dual gear extruder
Not to jinx myself, but I have been REALLY impressed with the (lack of) stringing on my Tronxy XY-2 on a bowden with stock settings. I've never had to print a retraction tower (yet) and just need a temperature tower to dial in the prints.
This is probably a subset of "retraction issues," but I'm changing my Ender 5 pro to direct drive to deal with heat creep issues printing ABS with an all metal hot-end. As it was explained to me, too much retraction pulls the hot plastic into the "cold" part of the hot-end and causes jamming that looks very similar to ineffective cooling. With the direct drive, the shorter retraction length should help very much with that problem. We'll find out! (The upgrade hit a delay when I over-torqued the nozzle and ripped it in half, so I'm waiting on a new nozzle and heater block...)
H2 direct drive all the way. Did my own mount for CR10 V3 as well as a duct and BTT SFS mount.
I'm honestly using both types of extruders on my machines. But mostly bowden because it was the most practical in the designs. One of the machines is a completely redesigned and overhauled Makerbot Replicator 2x. A bowden setup was the best choice for this machine because when I started this build, the Orbiter and Sherpa weren't that familiar to me and bowden was, plus, the space available within the machines physical parts is quite limited.
So I converted it to bowden with a very short tube and honestly, it works great, high speed with no stringing. It's not dialed in perfectly, but it's already printing really well.
On my Delta I also use bowden for obvious reasons, it's also a small machine, so even an Orbiter wasn't small enough for the carriage.
Third is a DIY Prusa MK2S with a direct drive extruder, because it has a big nozzle size on it and needs to push a lot of filament, in this machine the direct drive was the most obvious solution as due to the larger nozzle, the print speed was already limited. The E3D v6 hotend can't keep up with heating the filament fast enough because it needs to feed a larger volume, causing the hotend to cool down too much during fast prints. Here the advantage of better retraction was also noticeable because a bigger nozzle tends to ooze more.
And then I have a bunch of smaller machines, which are all equipped with random parts and there isn't really any logical choice made in why which extruder was chosen. I also never use the smaller machines.
Zesty nimble is next upgrade for my Bowden setup
I'm glad you at least mentioned Remote Direct Drive. In my experience it is a pretty good compromise, but people have all sorts of preconceptions about it being inaccurate because of the flex shaft. I know from experience that is a completely false perception. It would be an interesting video to see you try a remote direct drive conversion on one of your printers. I have one on my Ender 3.
Direct drive with some reduction built into teh extruder seems like the perfect middle point!
Remote motors /flex drive shaft Are imprecise contraptions . Because these typically use High Ratio and inefficient worm gear drives A Serious design failing.
Great coverage and presentation as always, Michael. I like the hybrid idea.
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One thing that isn't mentioned that I feel should be considered is maintenance. Direct drive setups are a pain to replace the short bowden tube piece. I print with PETG 24/7 and figured I would try direct drive on one of my Ender 3 Pros. About once a week I have to replace the PTFE tube as it gets burned through near the nozzle with the higher temps and constantly disassembling the direct drive setup was annoying. I also tried an all metal hotend to get the PTFE tube away from the nozzle entirely but that introduced more problems that I couldn't ever completely sort out. I converted back to the factory bowden setup and now I can simply pull the bowden out of the hotend, snip it off, and shove it back in and have zero printing issues. I just listen for the extruder skipping and know its time to snip the tube. Went from a 10-15 minute tube replacement (also had to redo the Z-offset) with direct drive, to a 10 second bowden tube snip on the factory bowden setup. Anyone running higher temp filaments should consider this before converting to direct drive. For PLA and TPU direct drive is fine because you wont be replacing the tube much.
Even for flexibles I run bowden tube, just drill the extruder housing out and cut a V shape in a small piece of PTFE tube and shove it on the back side of the extruder gears. No binding or spitting the TPU out the side of the extruder. I honestly probably won't mess with direct drive again unless I start buying Prusa printers.
I built my first printer over 4 years ago, I then went a built a larger version of the same printer with essentially the same configuration. Both printers have Bowden drives, and to be honest I don't have the need to change to a direct drive - I don't play with flexible filament, and that seems to be the only real advantage.
I could convert it whenever I wanted to, but I'm happy with the prints I'm getting.
If you're interested, I built a Hypercube by Tech2C, the forst is essentially the same as the first one he made, with a lot of basic mods, the second is much bigger and has dual Z axis motors. I built the entire thing, and I can fix or replace anything on the printer (which to be honest hasn't happened yet in the 2 years I've been running this printer)
I have had a CR 10S Pro V1 for 3 years. I listen to most all your posts regarding the Brand and Model. I held off getting Direct Drive until my team mate Andy installed the Micro Swiss Direct Drive to his 10s Pro V2. He was all over it telling his machine was a new machine, much better control. So I sprung for the kit. I already made several updates. New Bed Sensor, Micro Swiss Hot end with Steel Nozzle, Z Axis Synchronized upper belt and 10S Max Z axis Struts. So i was not worried about adding the Direct Drive. Oh thing Andy hammer on me was to get BL Touch Plus the Micro Swiss Direct Drive. I used Tiny Machines and they included all the code updates to the screen and Hex Firmware. It took me two days to get all the way thru the process. The result is Less Retraction and not retracting thru a Bowden Tube seemed to really calm down the whole process. I held my finger and various location to feel for vibration and there was NONE. The print was smooth and damn near flawless. A few nerds that is likely my damp basement and too hot nozzle with direct drive. My prints are better, my machine runs smooth and the frame feels solid and now vibrations anywhere. Andy and I all sold on this Conversion with this part set and on this machine. Dennis
my first printer the Anet A8 had direct drive and I built a lighter carriage w/ a geared extruder and pancake stepper motor thinking the mass reduction would majorly improve ringing and such. it helped a little, but after moving on to Prusa Mk3's which have a direct drive head which is super heavy and the Ender 3 which has a typical bowden, I've learned that other factors like the stiffness of the frame are much more important.
Hi bud l am so glad that l have subed to your channel you explain 3D Printing plain and simple so big thank you 😊
I feel like bowden gets a bad name because the older creality single gear setup with its lackluster hotend thats prone to jamming, they also have very low quality bowden couplers that work loose with retraction (which exacerbates the jamming issue) and the loose tolerance 2mm bowden tube vs Capricorn which I think is 1.8mm if I remember correctly.
I run an extremely lightweight bowden setup on my large delta and I can print petg stupid fast with my mosquito magnum.
Capricorn is 1.9 ID
same. Bowden is ideal for deltas as it's hard to fit the whole stepper on the small (and normally symmetrical) effector.
Indeed, Creality extruders can't keep up. If you want to print faster and more precise some upgrade is needed.
The only reason to go with bowden setup was extruder weight, especially on flimsy printer frames, but that's not an issue anymore. More and more printers are built from rigid metal profiles. And you can get very lightweight extruders, like LDO Orbiter, for quite cheap.
I'm fairly new to 3D printing and have only been using PLA so far, but the best upgrade to my Ender-3 (with bowden tube) was a BondTech BMG extruder. The stock Creality extruder is too weak. Not only is the single filament drive gear design inadequate, but even when this is working well the non-geared stock stepper motor tends to skip at certain times resulting in under (or at best inconsistent) extrusion. The 3:1 gear ratio of the BMG and the dual hardened steel drive gears solve these problems completely. Get the brand name BondTech because the clones are all much lower quality (from what I have read).
Better coupler and ptfe, I agree. Also the stock hotends NEEDS a Bi-metal heatbreak upgrade. Then hotend is alright
i think dd has the edge for what i do. especially the new creality extruder on my ender 3 s1. I'm blown away by the print quality.
Good Video. Use Capricorn XS Tube, good couplers with clips, Dualgear geared Extruder, dial it in and you can get very close to direct drive. At least, if your printer is so small, that you don't need a long bowden. :)
Define long? If I have a 500x500x500 Voron, should I switch to direct drive or is the M4 sufficient?
I would like a direct drive extruder because it's easier to calibrate and less prone to clogging. Most of my issues with my printer is me dealing with Bowden tube. Also flexible filaments are a nightmare to use on Bowden even though I get successful prints all the time...if the filament doesn't get tangled and shoot sideways outside of the extruder.
Ha! I always had that idea, never had issues with a good bowden setup. Good being the key here.
The mini-safe in the background looks cute : D
I converted my ender 3 from a Bowden tube setup to direct drive mainly because I started printing some stuff in TPU and I was having a hell of a time getting it to print through the stock bowden setup.
interesting video I was thinking about changing from Bowden to Direct drive but now I can see that it would offer me no real advantages, also learned what ringing is so everyday a learning day thanks.
I really wish the remote drive systems were more popular and were being developed more. It really seems like the best solution and I can't figure out why it hasn't become the standard mechanism.
Makes sense you would want the least amount of weight, load on the print head. I was wondering why the direct drive was so popular due to its inherent design flaws. Even with the compact motor and design, I would think you are still running a heaver head. The hybrid system looks like the most feasible for weight distribution. Thank you for the insight btw, great video.
You should try orbiter extruder mounted on a delta effector. I successfully mounted the orbiter on a custom effector designed to fit on a kossel delta and the results are unbelievable. Is true that i had to lower jerk and acceleration but 25mm/s jerk and 1500mm/s *s are decent values for a delta without any ringing or ghosting. So, my vote goes to direct drive low weight extruders. After this conversion, my favorite material is tpu, thanks also to the dragonfly bmo hotend.
Very informative !! Great video
Great - concise and informative.
Very good explanation. Thanks.
I remember when the anet A8 was all the rage and converting to a Bowden setup was a must
When you prioritize speed over quality, use bowden, and vice versa.
When i convert my 3d printer to DD configuration, i was blown by the prints quality. But when i want to reach a higher speeds, the quality suffer. Then i convert back again to bowden, just because i think the faster speed worth more than the small imperfection on the prints.
Only issue I'd see on a hybrid extruder would be backlash from the flex driver. Other than that it would still be much easier to tune out than a bowden extruder.
The dual extruder setup is a bit tricky to make direct drive, it’s definitely where the hybrid can have a niche, but I would also choose it for my delta since it’s much more sensitive to extra weight.
I recently converted my CR10 V2 to DD and my prints improved immensely. I will never go back to a Bowden setup.
Biggest problem I have with bowden is using flexible filaments, because it acts like a long spring inside the tube and builds pressure on the nozzle. Still you can tune the slicer to get acceptable results.
Hinting towards a hybrid or lightweight direct drive on the ratrig for the benchy contest?🤔
I have a RostockMax 3.2 delta, with a really long bowden tube on it (probably over 600mm), and I have to say, I have had very few problems with stringing.. I print with 7mm retraction, when retracting at all (I usually have combing mode always on), but still... stringing is very rarely an issue for me.
That said, I have printed almost exclusively in ABS here, with some occasional PLA... have never tried a properly difficult material to push through a bowden, like TPU... I expect that would be a new challenge.
Still run a bowden, but wish to go to an orbiter or sherpa mini dd in future.
My Hypercube Evolution is bowden, and my Ender 3 has a hemera. I can attest to the fact that a well tuned bowden setup can be on par with direct drive. Having a powerful extruder and capricorn tube helps a lot. Placement of the extruder motor at a strategic place, near the center of the travel of the axis, can really cut the length of your bowden tube down as well. On my 300mm^3 Hevo the extruder is placed at X=0 and Y=150.
That being said, I'd still choose a direct drive over bowden.
Thanks man really some great tidbits in here
Love your content, I’ve learned a lot watching your videos, thank you. Can I get your opinion on what you feel would be the best direct drive option for the Eender-3 V2? I know there are a lot of options but would just like to see what you would pick if it were you. Thank you Michael!
i would love to hear a review and opinions deeper on the remote drive extruders. the nibmle v3 flex looks pretty awsome
Well an other middle way option was to have a suspended extruder, like in the Delta printers, which is a very short bowden with the extruder hangin' in there suspended from the top. Also, do you happen to print minis or maybe some short prints with flexible? Just make a short bowden for those prints so you can improve retraction.
Another hybrid:
Bowden extruder to deliver material at constant rate over time, small servo (voice-coil?) at the hot-end.
Servo adjusts distance between Bowden fitting and hot-end, modulating nozzle pressure.
Voice coils are very fast, strong and with a simple feedback loop can sense back-pressure in the filament!
Feed-back servos will go where they are told to and use as much power as needed to do so.
Monitoring the power consumption of the servo gives a reading of nozzle pressure!
Retraction now has an identifiable signal.
Helped me a lot : was unable to load a new fillament. unclogged nozzle and ftpe but that did not solve it. Turned out there was also a jam above that : small piece of fillament stuck in the mechanism that feeds into the fpte tube. Prob solved! Thanks!
You bud are my favorite channel
Thank you sensei for a new video.
I converted my ender 3 to direct drive and I can literally hear the print head change direction now due to the increased weight. I’ve considered going back to Bowden because I feel like I was getting better prints with the lighter head.
I'm curious what design you went with that added so much weight. I converted mine to the printermods ender 3 DD kit and the prints are better than ever and the machine is dead silent.
@@skaboodlydoodle it’s only noticeable when I’m printing at 250mm/s with 5,000 acceleration.
I have two printers, one with direct drive for Flex filaments and one with bowden for another printings. I will not change this before I really need something different. The next printer will be a CoreXY, and will use bowden too.
You can have pretty much best of the both worlds just by using bowden setup where there is encoder on the extruder head precisely monitoring movement of the filament and that is software compensated and extruder motor corrected accordingly, you could call it closed loop motor control.
Not sure why no one did it yet.
That's a brilliant idea
That still doesn't compensate for linear advance. The gear/encoder would still progress as the filament kinks in the tube. And, this also has been done. There is a filament jam sensor that works like this for about 20 dollars on Amazon.
That... honestly sounds *so* much more complicated.
@@daveabittner You didn't understood. My idea compensates for any movement in the tube.
I didn't understand your idea.. closed loop stepper motors do exist, but I think the encoder should be at the end of the tube in order to compensate for any unwanted movement of the filament... I mean, the stepper has a strong grip on the filament and if you put the encoder right after it I don't think it would detect any difference between the expected and the real movement of the filament... But maybe I simply didn't understand very well or at all 😅
I'd love to see testing between print cooling attached to the hot end and independent to the hot end like a fan attached to the y gantry on an ender 3
Do you have your thoughts about the EZR struder? I am thinking about if for my Ender V2 to do flex, PETG, and possibly future Nylon filaments.
I use a couple of years a prusa mk3, and now I get him an Ender 3 max as big brother for the more "coarse" prints with a .6 mm nozzle.
After a few prints, i saw no disadvantages of bowden drive compared with the direct driven prusa while printing. What sucks more is the filament change and the fiddling through all instances. On the prusa the filament is changed in seconds. (If heated up)
Sure, the first on my Ender i ve done is the trick with the separate PTFE tube and a washer inside the hotend, because so many people seem to ran into issues with the direct tube line from the drive ending directly in the hotend. The reason is the Tube slips due to movements and builds a gap in the hotend where meltetd filament then jams.
Anyway, i would rather invest in a better hotend w/o PTFE inlet than replace the extruder to a direct drive.
What do you think of the new Creality Ender 3 S1 that just came out? I just put an order in for one to replace my Ender 3 pro. Also the CR10 Smart Pro series looks pretty awesome.