One reason to convert to direct drive that was not mentioned explicitly in the video is the ability to print flexible filaments like TPU. These are very difficult to get working properly in a bowden setup.
probably because that reason more of a myth since filament manufacturers seem to have figured their formulas out. most TPU can print just as badly from a bowden as it does from a direct drive nowadays.
I use a titan clone in my ender3 but with bowden tube , printing tpu at rhe same speed of pla (50 - 60 mm/s), the key of tpu: yuo must deshidrate yuor tpu filament
@@nonchip wrong but ok. (as a side note. if you have a tiny ass printer like the ender 3 then you don't know what the problems of bowden are. and you need to shut the f up in advance. don't even think about getting a responce from me. you don't count. you don't get a say. throw away your toy and build a real printer.) just a thing. filaflex for example, might call itself tpu or a flexible fillament. but it's more pla then tpu. (it's one of those fancy mixes you are spouting about) yeah ofcourse bowden can print it. also if you print anything thicker then a millimeter or 2 the end part is not flexible at all. YOU CANNOT PRINT FLEXIBLE FILLAMENT FROM BOWDEN!!!!!!!! stop fooling yourself. there is a reason your flexible prints look like dogshit. go print the good old ninjaflex from back in the day. and i'll quietly laugh while you cry in dispair.
I've owned almost a dozen 3d printers over the years and I've upgraded pretty much every one of them to direct drive with absolutely no perceivable drawbacks. I don't get noticeable ghosting/ringing and at this point in my experience that single downside to direct drive almost sounds like a myth. The weight of the print head seems to have very little effect on the overall quality of my prints even at some of the faster speeds. There are so many pros to direct drive and the only con can be incredibly relative. Pros: -consistent extrusion -less tweaking of settings -little to no stringing -easier to print flexible filament -easier to load/unload filament (something a lot of people don't talk about) Cons: -increased ghosting (maybe?/not always) In my experience and in a lot of my friend's experience, converting to direct drive has pretty much always been a universal improvement. I'm at the point that I really don't understand why so many printers come with a stock bowden setup at all. On top of that there's a lot of direct drive setups now that are very lightweight so that eliminates the only remaining downside of the arrangement. I think in reality direct drive IS inherently better and it's only downside isn't even entirely inherent to all direct drive setups.
i think the reason lots of printers are still produced bowden style is that its just what they know, they can continue to refine that setup to reduce cost, resulting in lots more people picking up the hobby, now for 200 bucks you can get setup with a decent printer with good print area.
@@SandwichMitGurke E3DV6 Clones for me. I've been running nothing but since 2017. I recently acquired an Ender 3 and an Ender 3 V2 and after 3 weeks, I am currently modifying them to accomodate V6 Hot-ends. The creality one is great if you don't mind putting a lot of work into it every so often. My V6's run like champs with very little to no maintenance and for a very long time.
This is super odd to me... I got into 3d printing back when just about everyone had direct drive, and the hype was all about converting to bowden to make your toolhead lighter. I did the John Lawrence bowden conversion on my printrbot back then, and it made a huge difference. Very interesting to see that these days, the cheap printers and general build conventions seem to make bowden builds so much more standard!
bowden for me just cant hack it. Speed means little if you can't print hotter better. Long retraction, stringing, pressure in the bowden, flexibles, etc...useless in bowden without headaches. all metal hotend...direct drive.
Everyone fell for the hype and then realised it wasn't worth it. I converted my AM8 years ago and after messing around for years trying to get bowden to work properly I switched back. I think most people had no idea what they were doing and fell pray to youtubers pushing things they really didn't understand either.
@@elobiretv I've worked with both. My bowden tube printer had basically no problems with feeding. It managed in the order of 100 hours in a single print job at .15mm. I suspect they really aren't that different if you're not trying to cheap out somewhere.
Swapped all my printers from bowden to DD and wont be going back The easier tuning, quicker retracts (they add up over time) and more responsive flow control make up for any minor downsides As for weight, sure on a single z bedflinger its an issue, but any well built modern machine with properly tuned modern firmware can handle it. Im slinging around a LGX, hotend, dual fans, dual MGN9 carriages, bed probe etc on machines with klipper and input shaper (which is also comming to RRF) and pushing near 7k accel for some moves at print speeds of 140mm/s (flow rate capped)
Yeah, and that accel is way higher than the Ender 3 defaults. Granted they are using different kinematics systems, it still proves that bowden is really not worth it. That being said, reducing weight is critical to getting the accelerations higher, which means you spend more time at your max speed.
this comment right here is all that needs to be said on this subject. there's nothing wrong with having a bowden, but if you're going to seriously argue that a direct drive is not superior in almost every single way and set up, then you need to go sit down and let the adults talk. it's that simple.
@Suicide Kyd says the guy with the username of a 12 year old fortnight player. leave the discussion to those of us who didn't have their printers paid for by their mommy lol.
Nice video. There is one point that's missing in my opinion: Linear Preasure Advance vs. s-Curve Acceleration. Sadly you can not use both at the same time. Linear Preasure Advance compensates for the delay between changes in feeder movement and reaction of the hotend, improving print quality (sharper edges). The correction you need is much higher on bowden setups, so it is much more needed there, while on direct drive the effect is much less. As you have to calibrate each type of filament anyway, Linear Preasure Advance is not very comfortable to use - so with a direct extruder you can get still good results without spending time for adjusting it. s-Curve Accelaration smooths out the acceleration, which reduces ringing esp. on heavy y-moving printbeds. So with printers beyond 200by200 mm² size it is a very nice feature to activate. So on printers with y-moving bed ("bedshakers") it is more interesting to use s-Curve Acceleration than using Linear Preasure Advance, if you use a direct drive. If you also want a very flat bed (thick milled casted aluminium) this also aplys to smaler printers. So on bedshaker-design you should always consider direct drive. A bowden setup is senseless (exept for very smal printers). With Deltas and z-moving bed (or z-moving x-y-gantry) a bowden setup is much more interesting vs. classic direct extruders, as the low moving mass is much more important (and there is no need for sCurve). Of course, with modern extruders like the Orbiter you can use the advantages of a direct extruder, ( I am quite happy you pointed that out in your video), while increasing weight only a bit. You might use a little less speed there - but for printing time over all, this might be already mostly be compensated by the less retraction you need. Anyway, with the most limiting factor in printspeed on this types of printers for PLA being the part cooling, the little mass added by an orbiter might not be relevant at all... In my opinion Creality mostly use bowden extruders to use single z, to reduce the cost. Which is O.K. fo make it more affordable, but as you can upgrade to dual-z for about $15 it is the one upgrade I recommend strongly before changeing to a direct extruder. P.S.: I do not totaly comply with the definitions of the parts. "Extruder" by definition is the complete unit that extrudes the filament, beginning with the feeder, through the bowden tube (on a bowden extruder or inside some of the direct extruders) and the hotend. So it starts at entry of the feeder and ends at the nozzle. I prefer using this definition, as while "extruder" in 3d printing often is used as synonym to the feeder, this is not the case in other technics like injection molding. So it avoids confusion if you use "Extruder" for the whole (like "Bowden Extruder" and "Direct Extruder"), but feeder, bowden and hotend if you refer to the single parts. So in my opinion "Bondtech BMG extruder" is not an extruder, but a "Bondtech BMG feeder", as it is not the whole extruder but only a part of it. It can become very confusing, if you sometimes the word "extruder" for the whole, but sometimes only for one part. I struggled a lot with this as I got into 3d printing...
Bowden seems to be a cost-cutting measure of printer manufactures. lower mass means getting away with flimsier frames. Also, the design time of the extruding system can be greatly reduced with a Bowden because one does not need to squeeze numerous parts and mechanisms in a small print head. ^^
While they would get away with flimsier frames, you can actually see the opposite in reality: Look at all the old i3 clones, that used to be popular. They have thinn, flimsy acrylic or wooden frames, but still use direct drive (which is the reason, that bowden mods for those aren't too unpopular). The frame on the Ender 3 and CR-10 in comparison is incredible sturdy and makes modding it to direct drive easy enough. The old MK8 must have been extremely cheap to make, but their weight isn't all that low and printers like the Geeetech i3 Pro W are just too wobbly. Since the M8 rods were also horribly bad, you didn't notice the ringing though^^
@@SchwachsinnProduzent The frame on the Mendel style Creality printers are sturdy indeed. I was quite surprised when felt the Ender 3. But the single lead screw on the old Enders is quite questionable, to say the least.
@@johnkim3858 You may find it questionable, but as an owner of three Creality machines, I can assure you, that the single lead screw works perfectly well, if you bolt everything together right. I even prefer it to most dual leadscrew setups, since I can just install a big knob on the end of it to move the Z-axis in the unpowered state, without having to worry about keeping the screws in sync with each other. The wobblier frames need two, because they don't keep the square without them, but even my CR-10 - which isn't a small machine - doesn't move in any way due to the "missing" second leadscrew. In theory the second motor would allow it move the z-axis quicker, but let's be honest: The z-axis doesn't move fast anyways due to the way fdm works.
@@SchwachsinnProduzent I agree with the rather elegant user experience with a single z-axis motor. I had some personal experience with the MakerGear M3 which had a knob on to move the z-axis. Also, the maker space at my current school has a Prusa Mini which has a cantilevered x-axis, as many people know. Both machines did cantilever construction. Unlike the Ender 3, the Prusa Mini is designed in a way that the belt pulls the x-axis together. On the other hand, the MakerGear M3 has fastened the y-axis plate so that the fasteners are usually at tension, again, unlike the Ender 3. The ender 3 has a somewhat cantilevered x-axis fastened in a way that the bolts have to withstand the torsional slipping of two flat surfaces. I think this kind of construction has similarities with wood furniture without joinery. It is going to work fine for a while but probably loosen over time. Of course, the user can tighten it and be fine for few weeks but the time will come rather quickly to tighten the bolts again. Also, the bolts that join the x-axis v-slot extrusion and metal brackets are not that accessible. I still give credit to the Ender 3 because they put the heaviest components close to the lead screw. I also, agree for most people printing trinkets, astatic pieces, hangers, etc at relatively conservative speeds, accelerations, and layer heights: a slightly skewed axis is not much of a problem.
Nice explanation and comparison. I have an Ender 3, an Ender 3 Max and a CR-10 S4 and they all print beautifully with Bowden setups. The filament is easy to load, I have good access to the hotend when it's time to do a bit of maintenance and the cost to replace worn parts is minimal. I certainly wouldn't say a Bowden setup is better than a direct drive but right now, I don't have a problem or need that changing to a direct drive would address.
converted my Creality to direct drive. Motion system is plenty powerful, accuracy is still good, I had no negatives but positives. Now I have less spare parts around, overall less stringy prints and filament doesn't kink anymore, neither gets brittle in the tube anymore. For me at least, only benefits
i think the issue why the "hybrid" option isn't as common is that it's hard to imagine a rotational drive cable to be any more rigid when it comes to e.g. retraction inaccuracies than the tiny bit of flex in a decently sized bowden tube. it's simply another possible source of error
Another downside of bowden - there are more potential points of failure. I've had the coupler on my microswiss strip the ptfe tube several times during long prints, causing the filament to pop out the top of the hot end. If i don't catch it early on I lose the print.... Got an LGX sitting on my desk just waiting to be installed now.
Yep.. Bowden tube pressures just make the whole damn thing seem silly. Blowing off the tubes on a big print with ABS or Polycarb is a common and expensive issue.. Tired of the nonsense myself...
@@blaqlabspodcast5816 Blowing off the tube just hints at issues with your melting speed. If the hot end can't keep up with the feed rate, the filament will find a way to release pressure... Have a look at your hotend and nozzle and check, if the hotend can really keep up.
I'm pretty sure that's possible even with bowden. You just need a Extruder with well constrained path for filament. There are also 3D printable options if you don't want to buy a new extruder
@@seville2k I second this , my ender 3 dose flexible material good but at like 20mm/s at max . My I 3 dose it way better , and I don't think the ender 5 would work well tubes too long . I picked up the i3 ripoff just for tpu
The main benefit is the more precise control that you have over the filament, that’s true regardless of the type of filament. If you can accommodate the added mass at the print head without introducing ringing artifacts, you will see overall better print quality with less need for calibration than is possible with a Bowden tube.
@@robnixon515 like anything else that comes down to price I would Imagen , at least for the most part, my ender 5 might be a good candidate for a direct drive unit then .
Great video as always Michael. I have no issues with my current bowden setup after putting over 5 kg of PLA and TPU through it with only having two blockages in all that use.
@10:10 Why do some manufacturers prefer bowen? Cost. Many printers have only one stepper motor on the Z-axis. Essentially, a cantilever. When a direct dive is used, the forces are greater due the the increased weight, and a second Z-axis motor is needed. Using a bowden drive with its less weight means a company can do away with the second Z-axis stepper motor.
Sorry this just isn't true. Tests have been done to show there less than 0.005 mm of sag from adding the weight of direct drive to the single side Z Axis. This is s myth that has been blown out of proportion with no numerical evidence.
I find this answer indicative to the reason 3D printer technology sucks so bad. Because everythings such a race to the bottom, no one can be bothered to innovate and create something truly special. They all gotta keep using the same dime store brand motors that have been used for literally decades. The thought of spending 40 dollars more to have a superior, stronger, lighter weight driver would cost too much and no one would bother when they can go "durr hurr look at my conversion kit" and they spend 20 dollars for a couple screws and a bracket and get exactly what they paid for. rant over
a good extruder (creality pro is enough) combined with with as short as possible bowden of a tube, which preferably is the good capricorn one, results in 5mm retraction distance with no stringing and good enough for flexible filaments at slow speeds. nothing bad with dd or bowdem both work if you tinker just a little.
Your explanation of a direct drive and bowden tube is spot on. Also the fact that you showed what "ringing" was makes it much clearer why we may need to upgrade to a different drive. For now my creality CR-10 printer I use a bowden tube, but I keep it as short as possible. This appears to help with retraction. Thanks for all you do, keep the videos coming!!
Glad you mentioned the Y axis on "i3" designs being the limiting factor for ringing. Pancake steppers on gear drive extruders and printed mounts (instead of machined AL) go a long way to lightening the X loading as well.
Yeah I always thought it was funny how people would talk about direct drive causing ringing because you added a few ounces to the printhead... Meanwhile their printer design involves slamming around an entire heated bed, giant piece of glass, and the entire part you're printing. It's really a weak argument to say that it has a large effect on ringing when you have $200 flash forge printers printing in schools near 24/7 that print just as fast with zero ringing issues. Essentially what he said is direct drive is superior for controlling the filament, but the only cost is potentially ringing... But what he failed to leave out is that you can control this ringing with a feedback loop, or just making the printer more rigid. The other option has less control over the filament which means you have less control over printing. Period. If you can't control the filament accurately, you can't print accurately. And you can dial in that machine to be absolutely perfect for right now with that filament. But as soon as you change filaments to one that has slightly different properties of flex within the bowden tube... Well you're going to be that much off.
Mine has a half sized/pancake on the X axis, and I saw an improvement going from 50mm/s with a very light direct drive (also with pancake, no gears, also a great way to burn out motors) to 150mm/s with my Bowden upgrade. I think they should go with duel motors on the bed if you want much faster printing (mine tops out around 220-250mm/s realistically, but that's only for smaller nozzle sizes like .3-.5mm). I also have my motors over-driven on the current more than they should, but the X axis has a fan and the bed motor doesn't seem to get too insanely hot. Also my X axis I don't run the fan much anymore, unlike I had to when using the direct drive. This is on an i3 Prusa style clone.
I built my first printer over 4 years ago, I then went a built a larger version of the same printer with essentially the same configuration. Both printers have Bowden drives, and to be honest I don't have the need to change to a direct drive - I don't play with flexible filament, and that seems to be the only real advantage. I could convert it whenever I wanted to, but I'm happy with the prints I'm getting. If you're interested, I built a Hypercube by Tech2C, the forst is essentially the same as the first one he made, with a lot of basic mods, the second is much bigger and has dual Z axis motors. I built the entire thing, and I can fix or replace anything on the printer (which to be honest hasn't happened yet in the 2 years I've been running this printer)
I'd love to see some crazy developments in flex drive extruders like we're seeing now in DD. The concept is awesome, but it still has a long way to go to become superior.
Some years ago, conversion to bowden was the rage. Flexible filaments, like TPU are awesome though and make me glad I kept direct drive. Would sure like to try out a BIQU H2.
I was a little out of this community now and I am surprised when I see the title this video in my feed. People were strongly pushing bowden tube printers, the only time I see the reverse is for the CR-10.
@@someonestolemyname I have one of each, bowden and direct. I still prefer the bowden most of the time because it has lower inertia at the print head. I can rip through prints on standard filaments.
Just upgraded to micro swiss direct drive kit on my cr10s pro v2 (with bl touch). Pretty straight forward. I don’t have to worry about the PTFE melting and causing clogs anymore. Plus better control on retraction. Made a vid on the assembly process to help others making the same upgrade.
I always end up finding your videos being the most education and in depth while sticking to the point. Thank you for all you do! You've definitely been my favorite channel when it comes to 3D printing
I had a Bowden tube setup which printed very well and rarely had jams. I recently changed to Micro Swiss because I wanted to try flexible filaments and heard DD was better for this type filament than Bowden tube. The DD is amazing. Filament changes are easy and I found setting it up was pretty easy for this newbie. I haven't tried flexible filaments yet. I totally agree with mass being a factor but am happy with what I consider to be an upgrade. I believe we'll see more improvements in this area. Thanks so much for your videos which teach me alot about this challenging hobby.
I'm honestly using both types of extruders on my machines. But mostly bowden because it was the most practical in the designs. One of the machines is a completely redesigned and overhauled Makerbot Replicator 2x. A bowden setup was the best choice for this machine because when I started this build, the Orbiter and Sherpa weren't that familiar to me and bowden was, plus, the space available within the machines physical parts is quite limited. So I converted it to bowden with a very short tube and honestly, it works great, high speed with no stringing. It's not dialed in perfectly, but it's already printing really well. On my Delta I also use bowden for obvious reasons, it's also a small machine, so even an Orbiter wasn't small enough for the carriage. Third is a DIY Prusa MK2S with a direct drive extruder, because it has a big nozzle size on it and needs to push a lot of filament, in this machine the direct drive was the most obvious solution as due to the larger nozzle, the print speed was already limited. The E3D v6 hotend can't keep up with heating the filament fast enough because it needs to feed a larger volume, causing the hotend to cool down too much during fast prints. Here the advantage of better retraction was also noticeable because a bigger nozzle tends to ooze more. And then I have a bunch of smaller machines, which are all equipped with random parts and there isn't really any logical choice made in why which extruder was chosen. I also never use the smaller machines.
Not to jinx myself, but I have been REALLY impressed with the (lack of) stringing on my Tronxy XY-2 on a bowden with stock settings. I've never had to print a retraction tower (yet) and just need a temperature tower to dial in the prints.
I have an Aldi Cocoon Create. The first major mod I did to it was to convert it to Bowden drive, but I could never quite get the quality I was after. So I recently fitted an Orbiter extruder and designed the mount, etc, myself to make it as compact and light as I could get it. I'm, still sorting out a few bugs with it right now but I reckon it'll end up a better thing. Thanks again for the good technical information in your videos.
I would like a direct drive extruder because it's easier to calibrate and less prone to clogging. Most of my issues with my printer is me dealing with Bowden tube. Also flexible filaments are a nightmare to use on Bowden even though I get successful prints all the time...if the filament doesn't get tangled and shoot sideways outside of the extruder.
This is probably a subset of "retraction issues," but I'm changing my Ender 5 pro to direct drive to deal with heat creep issues printing ABS with an all metal hot-end. As it was explained to me, too much retraction pulls the hot plastic into the "cold" part of the hot-end and causes jamming that looks very similar to ineffective cooling. With the direct drive, the shorter retraction length should help very much with that problem. We'll find out! (The upgrade hit a delay when I over-torqued the nozzle and ripped it in half, so I'm waiting on a new nozzle and heater block...)
I made the conversion to the modular direct drive setup you outlined and have been very happy with it. I am satisfied with slower print speeds, but am still having some issues with the first two base layers on larger prints. And yes, I painstakingly relevel the glass base on my CR-10 Mini before eack print but it will still have an inconsistent layer here and there. Just the fun of the "sport". Way better anti stringing performance.
I have had a CR 10S Pro V1 for 3 years. I listen to most all your posts regarding the Brand and Model. I held off getting Direct Drive until my team mate Andy installed the Micro Swiss Direct Drive to his 10s Pro V2. He was all over it telling his machine was a new machine, much better control. So I sprung for the kit. I already made several updates. New Bed Sensor, Micro Swiss Hot end with Steel Nozzle, Z Axis Synchronized upper belt and 10S Max Z axis Struts. So i was not worried about adding the Direct Drive. Oh thing Andy hammer on me was to get BL Touch Plus the Micro Swiss Direct Drive. I used Tiny Machines and they included all the code updates to the screen and Hex Firmware. It took me two days to get all the way thru the process. The result is Less Retraction and not retracting thru a Bowden Tube seemed to really calm down the whole process. I held my finger and various location to feel for vibration and there was NONE. The print was smooth and damn near flawless. A few nerds that is likely my damp basement and too hot nozzle with direct drive. My prints are better, my machine runs smooth and the frame feels solid and now vibrations anywhere. Andy and I all sold on this Conversion with this part set and on this machine. Dennis
I converted my ender 3 to direct drive and I can literally hear the print head change direction now due to the increased weight. I’ve considered going back to Bowden because I feel like I was getting better prints with the lighter head.
I'm curious what design you went with that added so much weight. I converted mine to the printermods ender 3 DD kit and the prints are better than ever and the machine is dead silent.
I'm glad you at least mentioned Remote Direct Drive. In my experience it is a pretty good compromise, but people have all sorts of preconceptions about it being inaccurate because of the flex shaft. I know from experience that is a completely false perception. It would be an interesting video to see you try a remote direct drive conversion on one of your printers. I have one on my Ender 3.
Remote motors /flex drive shaft Are imprecise contraptions . Because these typically use High Ratio and inefficient worm gear drives A Serious design failing.
Glad you mentioned the Zesty Nimble! I've loved mine, installed on my Frankenstein homebuilt printer. Just goes and goes, although with the worm drive, it seems like it spins the feed stepper a lot, after getting used to watching direct drive models for years... :)
One thing that isn't mentioned that I feel should be considered is maintenance. Direct drive setups are a pain to replace the short bowden tube piece. I print with PETG 24/7 and figured I would try direct drive on one of my Ender 3 Pros. About once a week I have to replace the PTFE tube as it gets burned through near the nozzle with the higher temps and constantly disassembling the direct drive setup was annoying. I also tried an all metal hotend to get the PTFE tube away from the nozzle entirely but that introduced more problems that I couldn't ever completely sort out. I converted back to the factory bowden setup and now I can simply pull the bowden out of the hotend, snip it off, and shove it back in and have zero printing issues. I just listen for the extruder skipping and know its time to snip the tube. Went from a 10-15 minute tube replacement (also had to redo the Z-offset) with direct drive, to a 10 second bowden tube snip on the factory bowden setup. Anyone running higher temp filaments should consider this before converting to direct drive. For PLA and TPU direct drive is fine because you wont be replacing the tube much. Even for flexibles I run bowden tube, just drill the extruder housing out and cut a V shape in a small piece of PTFE tube and shove it on the back side of the extruder gears. No binding or spitting the TPU out the side of the extruder. I honestly probably won't mess with direct drive again unless I start buying Prusa printers.
I love your videos. I've had my 3D printer for a week now and its impressive how deep the rabbit hole can go! I've managed to tweak quite a lot and i'm getting good quality prints, with decent printing times. A hybrid direct drive conversion looks really interesting.
Great video of the two types of Extruder setups. i will be changing my PTFE setup to direct drive on my Enders 3 v2 as i have had nothing but problems. 5 years i have been using direct drives and no problems
I really wish the remote drive systems were more popular and were being developed more. It really seems like the best solution and I can't figure out why it hasn't become the standard mechanism.
as the owner of a Zesty Nimble, I'm really happy with the thing, it might have a couple of design flaws, in the way it grips the filament, that being said, I also need to try the flex3drive ones that can use a Bondtech dual gear next.
I love that you used a Tevo Tornado at 1:37 as your bowden printer example. I"ve been using my gold Tornado as my primary printer for 2 years and I'm always happy to see it over some other options you could have chosen. Thanks for another great video!
Great video! I've always wondered what that "ringing" was. I never knew what it was called or why it was happening, and I never really gave it any thought and always assumed it was just because I was printing too fast, and it was just one of the unavoidable facts of life when printing. Now I'm thinking about lightweight parts and learning what retraction can do.
Hmm... I think replacing a bowden drive for a direct drive is maybe a improvement for printers with a fast moving bed. However in the case of my printer, an Creality Ender 5, it will actually be worst. Here we do not have a fast moving building platform, but a platform that only moves slowly up and down. The main movement in X and Y direction is done by the print head. Adding mass to it will actually introduce more ringing to the point it is getting ugly. The best modification I made for now, is moving the stepper motor for the bowden from the side to the top, and thus shortening the bowden tube. In this case a (very) light weight direct drive would be a solution. Sadly enough there is no one that I know about that would fit on a Ender 5. Most of the conversion kits even use the (heavy) original stepper motor, that is far to weighty and induce a LOT of ringing. So - For printers that use a fast XY movement and a slow up/down platform, there are no real working solutions.
@@tarigomar7982 The new Ender 3 S1 has a direct drive head (as far as I know the first Creality ever made) that has a pancake stepper motor plus a CR-touch and seems to be not that heavy. They are sold separately from the printer (at least the full metal ones), so maybe in the future they will also make a replacement for the standard Ender 5. I think it will be heartily welcomed by a lot of the Ender 5 users.
@@jclosed2516 I also had problems, but I solved it with a new nozzle that has a longer thread, so the bovden no longer heats up and the filament no longer flows around the bovden.
Great video as always 👍 I'm in the direct drive corner and with klipper and input shaping, you remove most of the gosting when printing Thanks for sharing your experience with all of us 👍😀
I love these videos! I've been professionally using 3D printers for around 8 years now, and have developed some personal rules of thumb with various 3D printer things, but you delve deep into the inate properties of these various parts and processes in such a detail-oriented manner that I gain new language to describe what I mean. Thanks, and keep up the good work
Of course highly subjective: My first printer was a classic I3 clone with direct drive. Then i got two ender 3s, which in the first half year of their life printed flawlessly. But after that half year, problems in maintenance mounted. One thing you did not made particularly clear is that not only do you need to dial in retraction on bowdens, but the bowden tube itself introduces alot of possible error causes and calibration in general is a lot more tricky. In my example, i've replaced almost the entire print drive section from the bowden down to the hotend without getting anywhere near the actual cause of the problem(s). The bowden tube itself is of course a consumable and even with a fancy extruder setup you can end up with filament shavings in the tube, that can ruin your day completely, because of the long filament way to the hotend. The results are: cloggings, lots of cloggings, under extrusions, failure to feed and whatnot. I have had nothing but trouble. More than i've ever had with a direct drive. I have converted both to a SKR Mini 3+ H2 combo and they print like a charm now. Granted the half year of the H2 is not quite over yet. So i might eat my own words soon. But so far: fingers crossed.
I feel like bowden gets a bad name because the older creality single gear setup with its lackluster hotend thats prone to jamming, they also have very low quality bowden couplers that work loose with retraction (which exacerbates the jamming issue) and the loose tolerance 2mm bowden tube vs Capricorn which I think is 1.8mm if I remember correctly. I run an extremely lightweight bowden setup on my large delta and I can print petg stupid fast with my mosquito magnum.
Indeed, Creality extruders can't keep up. If you want to print faster and more precise some upgrade is needed. The only reason to go with bowden setup was extruder weight, especially on flimsy printer frames, but that's not an issue anymore. More and more printers are built from rigid metal profiles. And you can get very lightweight extruders, like LDO Orbiter, for quite cheap.
I'm fairly new to 3D printing and have only been using PLA so far, but the best upgrade to my Ender-3 (with bowden tube) was a BondTech BMG extruder. The stock Creality extruder is too weak. Not only is the single filament drive gear design inadequate, but even when this is working well the non-geared stock stepper motor tends to skip at certain times resulting in under (or at best inconsistent) extrusion. The 3:1 gear ratio of the BMG and the dual hardened steel drive gears solve these problems completely. Get the brand name BondTech because the clones are all much lower quality (from what I have read).
Direct drive has been my go to so far. More filament options, stronger pull, and if dialed in right, far better prints. I think a second Y axis would have made that direct drive printer work fine. The sag is solved more by a second Z than it could ever be by a linear rail which just adds more weight
A second Z you mean? And yeah a cantilever design is by it's construction, bound to have problems with flexibility on any direction. I feel like it would have been both better and still cheaper if they went with a 2nd Z (yeah it would basically be an i3 style but hey, if it works it works. If you mean a 2nd Y to push the bed faster, that also is fairly interesting.
In my experience, If there’s a need to convert a direct drive machine to a Bowden to improve quality, the problem isn’t the extruder system, it’s the rest of the machine. A Bowden is like the skinny spare tire in your car; a quick temporary fix in exchange for tremendous performance limitations. The amount of head aches, tweaking and frustration getting it to print right should be considered torture.
Good Video. Use Capricorn XS Tube, good couplers with clips, Dualgear geared Extruder, dial it in and you can get very close to direct drive. At least, if your printer is so small, that you don't need a long bowden. :)
Biggest problem I have with bowden is using flexible filaments, because it acts like a long spring inside the tube and builds pressure on the nozzle. Still you can tune the slicer to get acceptable results.
Man you are so perfect in explaining ! I am mostly into biology but Ive taken note of how to make tuts !! Im upgrading from an i3clone to an Ender5, TH-cam suggested your video to me. Kudos !
I rarely have retract issues or filamet spider webs with my machines, bowden tube has a lot of pluses at least on the Anycubic I3 atchitecture, the stepper motor for the gantry side to side movement is balanced with the filament drive stepper motor (which many people incorrectly refer to as the extruder)in the injection molding industry extruder is a machine that processes and converts plastic pellets through hot nozzle, into a solid long shape, the plastic is extruded through the extruder head in this case, but the complete machine can also be referred to as a plastic extruder for simplicity. However on 3D printer you have a stepper driver that is actually driving or delivering the plastic filament to the extruder head therefor the extruder is the hot end assembly. In the case of the anycubic I3 Mega, the filament driver motor also holds the bowden tube at the opposite end, this symmetry in grantry mass is important, but more important is keeping the print head as light as possible. While direct drive has it pluses, for certain types and size of machines, ease of filament entry and hot end servicing, bowden tube in an architecture as I just described, with the Anycubic I3 machine, is best. I have yet to see a head design in direct drive that is light enough to obtain fast and consise prints on a table top machine.
I am A maker and I have come up with a new Bowden tube fitting to replace the push to connect fittings and would like to have you try them out. they can be found on Capricorn tube web site. they are called lemonade fittings. We took lemons and made lemonade. Thank you for all the great reviews I have been a fan of yours for years keep up the great work keeping us informed and empowered
I’m gonna be honest, I have a direct drive printer, and a bowden printer (A Maker Select V2, and a CR10 respectively), and can I honestly say for regular printing with say PLA, ABS, ASA, etc has been better for me with the bowden style
Flexdrives are interesting ...lightweight for speed ..but they are like 40:1 which completely defeat the high speed purpose. Though I haven't tried but there might be a way to up gear that on the motor and run a kickass bldc motor? Something to tinker maybe :) I might order a kit. But I'm afraid of chewing gears on the print head at high speed and high accel
Another hybrid: Bowden extruder to deliver material at constant rate over time, small servo (voice-coil?) at the hot-end. Servo adjusts distance between Bowden fitting and hot-end, modulating nozzle pressure. Voice coils are very fast, strong and with a simple feedback loop can sense back-pressure in the filament! Feed-back servos will go where they are told to and use as much power as needed to do so. Monitoring the power consumption of the servo gives a reading of nozzle pressure! Retraction now has an identifiable signal.
When you prioritize speed over quality, use bowden, and vice versa. When i convert my 3d printer to DD configuration, i was blown by the prints quality. But when i want to reach a higher speeds, the quality suffer. Then i convert back again to bowden, just because i think the faster speed worth more than the small imperfection on the prints.
I also converted my Ender 3 Pro to direct drive because of stringing. Way easier to tune it for better print quality. Option to print flexibles better is a nice bonus. I don't try to print the fastest I can, because I need to print stuff only once a while. So I'm fine with waiting a bit longer for the benefit of better quality. I treat my 3D printer as an another tool in my workshop, as e.g. a driller. It needs to work reliably, that's it.
I have a RostockMax 3.2 delta, with a really long bowden tube on it (probably over 600mm), and I have to say, I have had very few problems with stringing.. I print with 7mm retraction, when retracting at all (I usually have combing mode always on), but still... stringing is very rarely an issue for me. That said, I have printed almost exclusively in ABS here, with some occasional PLA... have never tried a properly difficult material to push through a bowden, like TPU... I expect that would be a new challenge.
You mentioned advancements in hardware, but don't forget about software too. Klipper and freshly RRF feature input shaper which helps iron out some artifacts caused by moving heavier heads. It's not universal cure and people may protest that it's software which fixes hardware, but ... it is what it is 😃 If we don't count Nitram's Delta printer, fastest speedboatracers feature DDE of some kind (Galileo or HextrudORT).
Only issue I'd see on a hybrid extruder would be backlash from the flex driver. Other than that it would still be much easier to tune out than a bowden extruder.
Thanks for not mentioning flexible filaments only being suited to direct drive - its an old myth that needs to die. It only pervades because most bowden extruders don't have constrained paths. Also, I prefer bowden because I can mount my heavy spools to the side of the printer completely unconnected rather than on top, which reduces ringing and increases stability.
Well an other middle way option was to have a suspended extruder, like in the Delta printers, which is a very short bowden with the extruder hangin' in there suspended from the top. Also, do you happen to print minis or maybe some short prints with flexible? Just make a short bowden for those prints so you can improve retraction.
I converted my ender 3 from a Bowden tube setup to direct drive mainly because I started printing some stuff in TPU and I was having a hell of a time getting it to print through the stock bowden setup.
if you have a bowden setup that gives you trouble i think the first step should be to shorten the tube. in the tronxy yuo could halve the length of the bowden if you mount it in the center of the printer :-)
Thats what i started with, still isnt a scratch on direct drive for any speed of printing. Converted my x5s-400 to a tool changer now. Still on the stock crappy vslot wheals but even with a very heavy directdrive supervolcano (1.4mm nozzle) i have less issues than with the bowden. The watercoold bmg clone with bimetalic heatbreak from triangle labs is my favourite for detailed stuff though
Appreciate the perspective. I am new to 3d printing. Just trying to nail down why I keep getting clogs in my hot end on my bowden tube printer. About to try the micro swiss all metal hot end. 🤞
Makes sense you would want the least amount of weight, load on the print head. I was wondering why the direct drive was so popular due to its inherent design flaws. Even with the compact motor and design, I would think you are still running a heaver head. The hybrid system looks like the most feasible for weight distribution. Thank you for the insight btw, great video.
interesting video I was thinking about changing from Bowden to Direct drive but now I can see that it would offer me no real advantages, also learned what ringing is so everyday a learning day thanks.
my first printer the Anet A8 had direct drive and I built a lighter carriage w/ a geared extruder and pancake stepper motor thinking the mass reduction would majorly improve ringing and such. it helped a little, but after moving on to Prusa Mk3's which have a direct drive head which is super heavy and the Ender 3 which has a typical bowden, I've learned that other factors like the stiffness of the frame are much more important.
My Hypercube Evolution is bowden, and my Ender 3 has a hemera. I can attest to the fact that a well tuned bowden setup can be on par with direct drive. Having a powerful extruder and capricorn tube helps a lot. Placement of the extruder motor at a strategic place, near the center of the travel of the axis, can really cut the length of your bowden tube down as well. On my 300mm^3 Hevo the extruder is placed at X=0 and Y=150.
I switched from a flying extruder on my delta to a sherpa mini because the flying extruder was creating a lot of vibrations and imparting them onto the print. Sherpa mini is so light that speed is not a factor
@@kazolar I have a flying setup as well, and solved the vibrations with a damped suspension instead of straight elastic. It works quite well with a 13cm bowden. I'll have videos of the current one (using an LGX) posted sometime soon, but I used the same damping setup on a flying Nimble and have a old video of that on my channel. (Flying Nimble wasn't worthwhile, but flying LGX is excellent.)
I think I've seen a printer in one of Thomas sanladeres videos of a fair, where somebody builded a printer with 4 Hotends, filing extruder and counterweights to counter the impulse of the extruders. 3 kinematic systems, probably very expensive, but super cool in my opinion.
I am brand new to 3D printing. I am astonished that Michael did not mention IDEX at all. High-quality retraction is critical for dual extruder printers, even IDEX, which is coming into the right price point now. IDEX should lead to multi-composition prints, too, not just multi-color. Retracting TPU and even PVA are very important with dual extruders, independent or not--and direct drive seems to provide superior retraction. To my surprise, there are popular IDEX printers with Bowden-tube setups, and naturally, the reviews show that the filaments bleed into each other on prints via oozing and stringing.
Excellent explanation. Just would like to add that bowden especially have its strengths when it comes to dual hotend setups for multi material extrusion....
I think it really depends on the 3D printer, for example my delta printer printhead ways only 100g and can do crazy speeds. Would be a real bummer to put a directdrive on that. And for some use cases for example mechanical printing speed is more important than having a little stringing.
Printers with a single upright support for the X axis (such as the Ender 2, Printerbot mini, Prusa Mini, etc) are good candidates for using a Bowden tube extruder. Ditto for printers that might have dual upright supports, but only one stepper motor drive screw along one of uprights for the z axis. OTOH, printers with two uprights and two drive screws for the Z axis can support a direct drive extruder with fewer problems. Note that when a direct drive extruder is used, a larger stepper motor for the X axis is usually required, along with a motor driver circuit that can handle the extra current such a motor requires. Note that Creality mounted their extruder on the X axis off to the side rather than on the top or bottom of the printer which still places the burden of lifting it on the Z axis motor, which means that a beefier Z motor is STILL required (though only one, not two). Since the extra weight of the extruder does not have to be moved, the X axis motor can be of lower power, and the X axis movement can still have good speed and acceleration. Also since the weight of the extruder is at the lift point of the X axis and is never at the far end of it, there won't be any bending moment on the axis, which could happen in a single upright system with a direct drive extruder. Still on a small printer it's best to NOT mount the bowden extruder on the X axis with a single upright support! This means living with a longer bowden tube, or keeping the max build height smaller. Design compromises!!! Direct drive with an external stepper motor driven though a 'speedometer' cable is an interesting idea, IF that cable is as flexible as a bowden tube.
Noticed you're an F1 fan, any chance of some 1/12 scale prints builds? Most of the deluxe model kits are 1/12 and it would be cool make a front row grid of a given era, 1989?
I've only been 3d Printing for about 3 weeks, and the first printer I got was actually a Direct Drive from Creality (CR-10 V3), not sure when this printer came out, but maybe Creality isn't a Bowden only company anymore?
I find the Bowden is easier to remove and strip down the hot end when there is a blockage etc. (re assembing the direct drive of my Mecreator 2 vs my Ender Creality 3 v2)
I use a couple of years a prusa mk3, and now I get him an Ender 3 max as big brother for the more "coarse" prints with a .6 mm nozzle. After a few prints, i saw no disadvantages of bowden drive compared with the direct driven prusa while printing. What sucks more is the filament change and the fiddling through all instances. On the prusa the filament is changed in seconds. (If heated up) Sure, the first on my Ender i ve done is the trick with the separate PTFE tube and a washer inside the hotend, because so many people seem to ran into issues with the direct tube line from the drive ending directly in the hotend. The reason is the Tube slips due to movements and builds a gap in the hotend where meltetd filament then jams. Anyway, i would rather invest in a better hotend w/o PTFE inlet than replace the extruder to a direct drive.
Just got an Ender 3 Pro two weeks ago because I wasn't sure how into 3d printing I'd get and didn't want to invest too much. I got pretty into it. I've already done all your typical ender upgrades but left the hot end stock because I knew it could eventually be converted to DD. I think I'm gonna use it for another couple weeks, get it even more dialed in and then see how I feel. Any one have any takes?
If you get it dialed in you might want to hold off on the DD upgrade. Why mess with it if it works? I've made the mistake of tinkering with one that was working and throwing it off. Upgrading and modding them is fun tho. Happy Printing!
Gear direct drive extruder with a Volcano hot end with total weight print head of 300g on my delta + klipper firmware = high speed and excellent quality without vibrations and ringing.
The dual extruder setup is a bit tricky to make direct drive, it’s definitely where the hybrid can have a niche, but I would also choose it for my delta since it’s much more sensitive to extra weight.
I printed just printed the DD bracket for ender 3 and used the stock extruder..done direct drive. I havent tested it a lot but i have no more extruder skipping wich was driving me nutz. only issue so far is that the Z axis screw started to make a high pich noice when moving,thats from vibration easily fixable. I do recomend dual Z motors for the added weight because the thing feels heavy at least with the stock stepper
One reason to convert to direct drive that was not mentioned explicitly in the video is the ability to print flexible filaments like TPU. These are very difficult to get working properly in a bowden setup.
Depends on the TPU variant. The stiffer types print just fine.
Printing Ninjaflex all day long with a BMG/MS bowden setup like many others.
probably because that reason more of a myth since filament manufacturers seem to have figured their formulas out. most TPU can print just as badly from a bowden as it does from a direct drive nowadays.
I use a titan clone in my ender3 but with bowden tube , printing tpu at rhe same speed of pla (50 - 60 mm/s), the key of tpu: yuo must deshidrate yuor tpu filament
@@nonchip wrong but ok. (as a side note. if you have a tiny ass printer like the ender 3 then you don't know what the problems of bowden are. and you need to shut the f up in advance. don't even think about getting a responce from me. you don't count. you don't get a say. throw away your toy and build a real printer.)
just a thing. filaflex for example, might call itself tpu or a flexible fillament. but it's more pla then tpu. (it's one of those fancy mixes you are spouting about)
yeah ofcourse bowden can print it.
also if you print anything thicker then a millimeter or 2 the end part is not flexible at all.
YOU CANNOT PRINT FLEXIBLE FILLAMENT FROM BOWDEN!!!!!!!! stop fooling yourself. there is a reason your flexible prints look like dogshit.
go print the good old ninjaflex from back in the day. and i'll quietly laugh while you cry in dispair.
I've owned almost a dozen 3d printers over the years and I've upgraded pretty much every one of them to direct drive with absolutely no perceivable drawbacks. I don't get noticeable ghosting/ringing and at this point in my experience that single downside to direct drive almost sounds like a myth. The weight of the print head seems to have very little effect on the overall quality of my prints even at some of the faster speeds.
There are so many pros to direct drive and the only con can be incredibly relative.
Pros:
-consistent extrusion
-less tweaking of settings
-little to no stringing
-easier to print flexible filament
-easier to load/unload filament (something a lot of people don't talk about)
Cons:
-increased ghosting (maybe?/not always)
In my experience and in a lot of my friend's experience, converting to direct drive has pretty much always been a universal improvement. I'm at the point that I really don't understand why so many printers come with a stock bowden setup at all. On top of that there's a lot of direct drive setups now that are very lightweight so that eliminates the only remaining downside of the arrangement. I think in reality direct drive IS inherently better and it's only downside isn't even entirely inherent to all direct drive setups.
And which direct drive / hotend combo do you recommend for a low price?
i think the reason lots of printers are still produced bowden style is that its just what they know, they can continue to refine that setup to reduce cost, resulting in lots more people picking up the hobby, now for 200 bucks you can get setup with a decent printer with good print area.
@@SandwichMitGurke E3DV6 Clones for me. I've been running nothing but since 2017.
I recently acquired an Ender 3 and an Ender 3 V2 and after 3 weeks, I am currently modifying them to accomodate V6 Hot-ends. The creality one is great if you don't mind putting a lot of work into it every so often. My V6's run like champs with very little to no maintenance and for a very long time.
@@MHTSAPAS nice. I've bought a CR10 like style all-metal hotend (NF Smart). But I can't assemble it yet because I need to new x-carriage ..
@@SandwichMitGurke creality sprite is low cost and low weight with decent quality. If you are willing to spend more the E3d Hemera is a great choice
This is super odd to me... I got into 3d printing back when just about everyone had direct drive, and the hype was all about converting to bowden to make your toolhead lighter. I did the John Lawrence bowden conversion on my printrbot back then, and it made a huge difference. Very interesting to see that these days, the cheap printers and general build conventions seem to make bowden builds so much more standard!
I wonder if flexible filament made the difference. Bowden tube setups often struggle with them for obvious reasons.
bowden for me just cant hack it. Speed means little if you can't print hotter better. Long retraction, stringing, pressure in the bowden, flexibles, etc...useless in bowden without headaches.
all metal hotend...direct drive.
Klipper and input shaping gets all the speed back, with direct drive.
Everyone fell for the hype and then realised it wasn't worth it. I converted my AM8 years ago and after messing around for years trying to get bowden to work properly I switched back. I think most people had no idea what they were doing and fell pray to youtubers pushing things they really didn't understand either.
@@elobiretv I've worked with both. My bowden tube printer had basically no problems with feeding. It managed in the order of 100 hours in a single print job at .15mm. I suspect they really aren't that different if you're not trying to cheap out somewhere.
Direct and to the point, like I pefer my extruders.
Swapped all my printers from bowden to DD and wont be going back
The easier tuning, quicker retracts (they add up over time) and more responsive flow control make up for any minor downsides
As for weight, sure on a single z bedflinger its an issue, but any well built modern machine with properly tuned modern firmware can handle it.
Im slinging around a LGX, hotend, dual fans, dual MGN9 carriages, bed probe etc on machines with klipper and input shaper (which is also comming to RRF) and pushing near 7k accel for some moves at print speeds of 140mm/s (flow rate capped)
Yeah, and that accel is way higher than the Ender 3 defaults. Granted they are using different kinematics systems, it still proves that bowden is really not worth it. That being said, reducing weight is critical to getting the accelerations higher, which means you spend more time at your max speed.
this comment right here is all that needs to be said on this subject. there's nothing wrong with having a bowden, but if you're going to seriously argue that a direct drive is not superior in almost every single way and set up, then you need to go sit down and let the adults talk. it's that simple.
@Suicide Kyd says the guy with the username of a 12 year old fortnight player. leave the discussion to those of us who didn't have their printers paid for by their mommy lol.
Actually rrf has now input shaper in its 3.3. released a few days ago. I did not test it yet. But i have the hardware here to do it soon.
@Suicide Kyd really proving that adult thing lolol
Nice video. There is one point that's missing in my opinion: Linear Preasure Advance vs. s-Curve Acceleration. Sadly you can not use both at the same time. Linear Preasure Advance compensates for the delay between changes in feeder movement and reaction of the hotend, improving print quality (sharper edges). The correction you need is much higher on bowden setups, so it is much more needed there, while on direct drive the effect is much less. As you have to calibrate each type of filament anyway, Linear Preasure Advance is not very comfortable to use - so with a direct extruder you can get still good results without spending time for adjusting it.
s-Curve Accelaration smooths out the acceleration, which reduces ringing esp. on heavy y-moving printbeds. So with printers beyond 200by200 mm² size it is a very nice feature to activate.
So on printers with y-moving bed ("bedshakers") it is more interesting to use s-Curve Acceleration than using Linear Preasure Advance, if you use a direct drive. If you also want a very flat bed (thick milled casted aluminium) this also aplys to smaler printers. So on bedshaker-design you should always consider direct drive. A bowden setup is senseless (exept for very smal printers).
With Deltas and z-moving bed (or z-moving x-y-gantry) a bowden setup is much more interesting vs. classic direct extruders, as the low moving mass is much more important (and there is no need for sCurve). Of course, with modern extruders like the Orbiter you can use the advantages of a direct extruder, ( I am quite happy you pointed that out in your video), while increasing weight only a bit. You might use a little less speed there - but for printing time over all, this might be already mostly be compensated by the less retraction you need. Anyway, with the most limiting factor in printspeed on this types of printers for PLA being the part cooling, the little mass added by an orbiter might not be relevant at all...
In my opinion Creality mostly use bowden extruders to use single z, to reduce the cost. Which is O.K. fo make it more affordable, but as you can upgrade to dual-z for about $15 it is the one upgrade I recommend strongly before changeing to a direct extruder.
P.S.: I do not totaly comply with the definitions of the parts. "Extruder" by definition is the complete unit that extrudes the filament, beginning with the feeder, through the bowden tube (on a bowden extruder or inside some of the direct extruders) and the hotend. So it starts at entry of the feeder and ends at the nozzle. I prefer using this definition, as while "extruder" in 3d printing often is used as synonym to the feeder, this is not the case in other technics like injection molding. So it avoids confusion if you use "Extruder" for the whole (like "Bowden Extruder" and "Direct Extruder"), but feeder, bowden and hotend if you refer to the single parts. So in my opinion "Bondtech BMG extruder" is not an extruder, but a "Bondtech BMG feeder", as it is not the whole extruder but only a part of it.
It can become very confusing, if you sometimes the word "extruder" for the whole, but sometimes only for one part. I struggled a lot with this as I got into 3d printing...
Scurve fork of klipper can do pressure advance and scurve accleration at the same time
Thank you for posting, very helpful
Bowden seems to be a cost-cutting measure of printer manufactures. lower mass means getting away with flimsier frames. Also, the design time of the extruding system can be greatly reduced with a Bowden because one does not need to squeeze numerous parts and mechanisms in a small print head. ^^
While they would get away with flimsier frames, you can actually see the opposite in reality: Look at all the old i3 clones, that used to be popular. They have thinn, flimsy acrylic or wooden frames, but still use direct drive (which is the reason, that bowden mods for those aren't too unpopular). The frame on the Ender 3 and CR-10 in comparison is incredible sturdy and makes modding it to direct drive easy enough. The old MK8 must have been extremely cheap to make, but their weight isn't all that low and printers like the Geeetech i3 Pro W are just too wobbly. Since the M8 rods were also horribly bad, you didn't notice the ringing though^^
@@SchwachsinnProduzent The frame on the Mendel style Creality printers are sturdy indeed. I was quite surprised when felt the Ender 3. But the single lead screw on the old Enders is quite questionable, to say the least.
@@johnkim3858 You may find it questionable, but as an owner of three Creality machines, I can assure you, that the single lead screw works perfectly well, if you bolt everything together right. I even prefer it to most dual leadscrew setups, since I can just install a big knob on the end of it to move the Z-axis in the unpowered state, without having to worry about keeping the screws in sync with each other. The wobblier frames need two, because they don't keep the square without them, but even my CR-10 - which isn't a small machine - doesn't move in any way due to the "missing" second leadscrew. In theory the second motor would allow it move the z-axis quicker, but let's be honest: The z-axis doesn't move fast anyways due to the way fdm works.
@@SchwachsinnProduzent I agree with the rather elegant user experience with a single z-axis motor. I had some personal experience with the MakerGear M3 which had a knob on to move the z-axis. Also, the maker space at my current school has a Prusa Mini which has a cantilevered x-axis, as many people know.
Both machines did cantilever construction. Unlike the Ender 3, the Prusa Mini is designed in a way that the belt pulls the x-axis together. On the other hand, the MakerGear M3 has fastened the y-axis plate so that the fasteners are usually at tension, again, unlike the Ender 3. The ender 3 has a somewhat cantilevered x-axis fastened in a way that the bolts have to withstand the torsional slipping of two flat surfaces.
I think this kind of construction has similarities with wood furniture without joinery. It is going to work fine for a while but probably loosen over time. Of course, the user can tighten it and be fine for few weeks but the time will come rather quickly to tighten the bolts again. Also, the bolts that join the x-axis v-slot extrusion and metal brackets are not that accessible.
I still give credit to the Ender 3 because they put the heaviest components close to the lead screw. I also, agree for most people printing trinkets, astatic pieces, hangers, etc at relatively conservative speeds, accelerations, and layer heights: a slightly skewed axis is not much of a problem.
Always that one "everyone out to rip us off" guy.
Nice explanation and comparison. I have an Ender 3, an Ender 3 Max and a CR-10 S4 and they all print beautifully with Bowden setups. The filament is easy to load, I have good access to the hotend when it's time to do a bit of maintenance and the cost to replace worn parts is minimal. I certainly wouldn't say a Bowden setup is better than a direct drive but right now, I don't have a problem or need that changing to a direct drive would address.
converted my Creality to direct drive. Motion system is plenty powerful, accuracy is still good, I had no negatives but positives. Now I have less spare parts around, overall less stringy prints and filament doesn't kink anymore, neither gets brittle in the tube anymore. For me at least, only benefits
Do u use dual Z thread bars?
i think the issue why the "hybrid" option isn't as common is that it's hard to imagine a rotational drive cable to be any more rigid when it comes to e.g. retraction inaccuracies than the tiny bit of flex in a decently sized bowden tube. it's simply another possible source of error
Another downside of bowden - there are more potential points of failure. I've had the coupler on my microswiss strip the ptfe tube several times during long prints, causing the filament to pop out the top of the hot end. If i don't catch it early on I lose the print....
Got an LGX sitting on my desk just waiting to be installed now.
Yep.. Bowden tube pressures just make the whole damn thing seem silly. Blowing off the tubes on a big print with ABS or Polycarb is a common and expensive issue.. Tired of the nonsense myself...
@@blaqlabspodcast5816 Blowing off the tube just hints at issues with your melting speed.
If the hot end can't keep up with the feed rate, the filament will find a way to release pressure...
Have a look at your hotend and nozzle and check, if the hotend can really keep up.
I think the main benefit of direct drive is that you can use flexible filaments.
I'm pretty sure that's possible even with bowden. You just need a Extruder with well constrained path for filament. There are also 3D printable options if you don't want to buy a new extruder
@@F2_CPB the main thing is that direct drives can generally print flexibles at normal speeds, while Bowdens generally have to print slower.
@@seville2k I second this , my ender 3 dose flexible material good but at like 20mm/s at max . My I 3 dose it way better , and I don't think the ender 5 would work well tubes too long . I picked up the i3 ripoff just for tpu
The main benefit is the more precise control that you have over the filament, that’s true regardless of the type of filament. If you can accommodate the added mass at the print head without introducing ringing artifacts, you will see overall better print quality with less need for calibration than is possible with a Bowden tube.
@@robnixon515 like anything else that comes down to price I would Imagen , at least for the most part, my ender 5 might be a good candidate for a direct drive unit then .
Great video as always Michael. I have no issues with my current bowden setup after putting over 5 kg of PLA and TPU through it with only having two blockages in all that use.
@10:10 Why do some manufacturers prefer bowen? Cost. Many printers have only one stepper motor on the Z-axis. Essentially, a cantilever. When a direct dive is used, the forces are greater due the the increased weight, and a second Z-axis motor is needed. Using a bowden drive with its less weight means a company can do away with the second Z-axis stepper motor.
also nylon wheels which cant handle heavy load reliably.
Sorry this just isn't true. Tests have been done to show there less than 0.005 mm of sag from adding the weight of direct drive to the single side Z Axis. This is s myth that has been blown out of proportion with no numerical evidence.
@@RFi731 they are polypropylene tho. Not Nylon.
@@F2_CPB They are normally delrin which is pom and some upgrade rollers are Polycarbonat.
I find this answer indicative to the reason 3D printer technology sucks so bad. Because everythings such a race to the bottom, no one can be bothered to innovate and create something truly special. They all gotta keep using the same dime store brand motors that have been used for literally decades. The thought of spending 40 dollars more to have a superior, stronger, lighter weight driver would cost too much and no one would bother when they can go "durr hurr look at my conversion kit" and they spend 20 dollars for a couple screws and a bracket and get exactly what they paid for. rant over
a good extruder (creality pro is enough) combined with with as short as possible bowden of a tube, which preferably is the good capricorn one, results in 5mm retraction distance with no stringing and good enough for flexible filaments at slow speeds. nothing bad with dd or bowdem both work if you tinker just a little.
Your explanation of a direct drive and bowden tube is spot on. Also the fact that you showed what "ringing" was makes it much clearer why we may need to upgrade to a different drive. For now my creality CR-10 printer I use a bowden tube, but I keep it as short as possible. This appears to help with retraction. Thanks for all you do, keep the videos coming!!
Switched from a Bowden to a direct drive a year ago and never thought about changing the retraction distance, Thanks for opening my eyes about this!
Glad you mentioned the Y axis on "i3" designs being the limiting factor for ringing.
Pancake steppers on gear drive extruders and printed mounts (instead of machined AL) go a long way to lightening the X loading as well.
Yeah I always thought it was funny how people would talk about direct drive causing ringing because you added a few ounces to the printhead... Meanwhile their printer design involves slamming around an entire heated bed, giant piece of glass, and the entire part you're printing.
It's really a weak argument to say that it has a large effect on ringing when you have $200 flash forge printers printing in schools near 24/7 that print just as fast with zero ringing issues.
Essentially what he said is direct drive is superior for controlling the filament, but the only cost is potentially ringing... But what he failed to leave out is that you can control this ringing with a feedback loop, or just making the printer more rigid.
The other option has less control over the filament which means you have less control over printing. Period. If you can't control the filament accurately, you can't print accurately. And you can dial in that machine to be absolutely perfect for right now with that filament. But as soon as you change filaments to one that has slightly different properties of flex within the bowden tube... Well you're going to be that much off.
@@TravisFabel spot on my man, good comment.
Mine has a half sized/pancake on the X axis, and I saw an improvement going from 50mm/s with a very light direct drive (also with pancake, no gears, also a great way to burn out motors) to 150mm/s with my Bowden upgrade. I think they should go with duel motors on the bed if you want much faster printing (mine tops out around 220-250mm/s realistically, but that's only for smaller nozzle sizes like .3-.5mm). I also have my motors over-driven on the current more than they should, but the X axis has a fan and the bed motor doesn't seem to get too insanely hot. Also my X axis I don't run the fan much anymore, unlike I had to when using the direct drive. This is on an i3 Prusa style clone.
I built my first printer over 4 years ago, I then went a built a larger version of the same printer with essentially the same configuration. Both printers have Bowden drives, and to be honest I don't have the need to change to a direct drive - I don't play with flexible filament, and that seems to be the only real advantage.
I could convert it whenever I wanted to, but I'm happy with the prints I'm getting.
If you're interested, I built a Hypercube by Tech2C, the forst is essentially the same as the first one he made, with a lot of basic mods, the second is much bigger and has dual Z axis motors. I built the entire thing, and I can fix or replace anything on the printer (which to be honest hasn't happened yet in the 2 years I've been running this printer)
I'd love to see some crazy developments in flex drive extruders like we're seeing now in DD. The concept is awesome, but it still has a long way to go to become superior.
Some years ago, conversion to bowden was the rage. Flexible filaments, like TPU are awesome though and make me glad I kept direct drive.
Would sure like to try out a BIQU H2.
I was a little out of this community now and I am surprised when I see the title this video in my feed. People were strongly pushing bowden tube printers, the only time I see the reverse is for the CR-10.
@@someonestolemyname I have one of each, bowden and direct. I still prefer the bowden most of the time because it has lower inertia at the print head. I can rip through prints on standard filaments.
Direct drive conversion on my Ender 5 Pro was a game changer to remove at least 90% stringing. Huge benefit for my setup.
If you had 90% stringing then your problem was your slicer settings not the bowden setup.
Just upgraded to micro swiss direct drive kit on my cr10s pro v2 (with bl touch). Pretty straight forward. I don’t have to worry about the PTFE melting and causing clogs anymore. Plus better control on retraction. Made a vid on the assembly process to help others making the same upgrade.
I always end up finding your videos being the most education and in depth while sticking to the point. Thank you for all you do! You've definitely been my favorite channel when it comes to 3D printing
I had a Bowden tube setup which printed very well and rarely had jams. I recently changed to Micro Swiss because I wanted to try flexible filaments and heard DD was better for this type filament than Bowden tube. The DD is amazing. Filament changes are easy and I found setting it up was pretty easy for this newbie. I haven't tried flexible filaments yet. I totally agree with mass being a factor but am happy with what I consider to be an upgrade. I believe we'll see more improvements in this area. Thanks so much for your videos which teach me alot about this challenging hobby.
I'm honestly using both types of extruders on my machines. But mostly bowden because it was the most practical in the designs. One of the machines is a completely redesigned and overhauled Makerbot Replicator 2x. A bowden setup was the best choice for this machine because when I started this build, the Orbiter and Sherpa weren't that familiar to me and bowden was, plus, the space available within the machines physical parts is quite limited.
So I converted it to bowden with a very short tube and honestly, it works great, high speed with no stringing. It's not dialed in perfectly, but it's already printing really well.
On my Delta I also use bowden for obvious reasons, it's also a small machine, so even an Orbiter wasn't small enough for the carriage.
Third is a DIY Prusa MK2S with a direct drive extruder, because it has a big nozzle size on it and needs to push a lot of filament, in this machine the direct drive was the most obvious solution as due to the larger nozzle, the print speed was already limited. The E3D v6 hotend can't keep up with heating the filament fast enough because it needs to feed a larger volume, causing the hotend to cool down too much during fast prints. Here the advantage of better retraction was also noticeable because a bigger nozzle tends to ooze more.
And then I have a bunch of smaller machines, which are all equipped with random parts and there isn't really any logical choice made in why which extruder was chosen. I also never use the smaller machines.
Not to jinx myself, but I have been REALLY impressed with the (lack of) stringing on my Tronxy XY-2 on a bowden with stock settings. I've never had to print a retraction tower (yet) and just need a temperature tower to dial in the prints.
I have an Aldi Cocoon Create. The first major mod I did to it was to convert it to Bowden drive, but I could never quite get the quality I was after. So I recently fitted an Orbiter extruder and designed the mount, etc, myself to make it as compact and light as I could get it. I'm, still sorting out a few bugs with it right now but I reckon it'll end up a better thing.
Thanks again for the good technical information in your videos.
I would like a direct drive extruder because it's easier to calibrate and less prone to clogging. Most of my issues with my printer is me dealing with Bowden tube. Also flexible filaments are a nightmare to use on Bowden even though I get successful prints all the time...if the filament doesn't get tangled and shoot sideways outside of the extruder.
This is probably a subset of "retraction issues," but I'm changing my Ender 5 pro to direct drive to deal with heat creep issues printing ABS with an all metal hot-end. As it was explained to me, too much retraction pulls the hot plastic into the "cold" part of the hot-end and causes jamming that looks very similar to ineffective cooling. With the direct drive, the shorter retraction length should help very much with that problem. We'll find out! (The upgrade hit a delay when I over-torqued the nozzle and ripped it in half, so I'm waiting on a new nozzle and heater block...)
I made the conversion to the modular direct drive setup you outlined and have been very happy with it. I am satisfied with slower print speeds, but am still having some issues with the first two base layers on larger prints. And yes, I painstakingly relevel the glass base on my CR-10 Mini before eack print but it will still have an inconsistent layer here and there. Just the fun of the "sport". Way better anti stringing performance.
I have had a CR 10S Pro V1 for 3 years. I listen to most all your posts regarding the Brand and Model. I held off getting Direct Drive until my team mate Andy installed the Micro Swiss Direct Drive to his 10s Pro V2. He was all over it telling his machine was a new machine, much better control. So I sprung for the kit. I already made several updates. New Bed Sensor, Micro Swiss Hot end with Steel Nozzle, Z Axis Synchronized upper belt and 10S Max Z axis Struts. So i was not worried about adding the Direct Drive. Oh thing Andy hammer on me was to get BL Touch Plus the Micro Swiss Direct Drive. I used Tiny Machines and they included all the code updates to the screen and Hex Firmware. It took me two days to get all the way thru the process. The result is Less Retraction and not retracting thru a Bowden Tube seemed to really calm down the whole process. I held my finger and various location to feel for vibration and there was NONE. The print was smooth and damn near flawless. A few nerds that is likely my damp basement and too hot nozzle with direct drive. My prints are better, my machine runs smooth and the frame feels solid and now vibrations anywhere. Andy and I all sold on this Conversion with this part set and on this machine. Dennis
I converted my ender 3 to direct drive and I can literally hear the print head change direction now due to the increased weight. I’ve considered going back to Bowden because I feel like I was getting better prints with the lighter head.
I'm curious what design you went with that added so much weight. I converted mine to the printermods ender 3 DD kit and the prints are better than ever and the machine is dead silent.
@@skaboodlydoodle it’s only noticeable when I’m printing at 250mm/s with 5,000 acceleration.
I'm glad you added the remote DD options in. It is worth considering how to refine the tech with dual drive and different types of gearing.
H2 direct drive all the way. Did my own mount for CR10 V3 as well as a duct and BTT SFS mount.
I'm glad you at least mentioned Remote Direct Drive. In my experience it is a pretty good compromise, but people have all sorts of preconceptions about it being inaccurate because of the flex shaft. I know from experience that is a completely false perception. It would be an interesting video to see you try a remote direct drive conversion on one of your printers. I have one on my Ender 3.
Direct drive with some reduction built into teh extruder seems like the perfect middle point!
Remote motors /flex drive shaft Are imprecise contraptions . Because these typically use High Ratio and inefficient worm gear drives A Serious design failing.
Glad you mentioned the Zesty Nimble! I've loved mine, installed on my Frankenstein homebuilt printer. Just goes and goes, although with the worm drive, it seems like it spins the feed stepper a lot, after getting used to watching direct drive models for years... :)
One thing that isn't mentioned that I feel should be considered is maintenance. Direct drive setups are a pain to replace the short bowden tube piece. I print with PETG 24/7 and figured I would try direct drive on one of my Ender 3 Pros. About once a week I have to replace the PTFE tube as it gets burned through near the nozzle with the higher temps and constantly disassembling the direct drive setup was annoying. I also tried an all metal hotend to get the PTFE tube away from the nozzle entirely but that introduced more problems that I couldn't ever completely sort out. I converted back to the factory bowden setup and now I can simply pull the bowden out of the hotend, snip it off, and shove it back in and have zero printing issues. I just listen for the extruder skipping and know its time to snip the tube. Went from a 10-15 minute tube replacement (also had to redo the Z-offset) with direct drive, to a 10 second bowden tube snip on the factory bowden setup. Anyone running higher temp filaments should consider this before converting to direct drive. For PLA and TPU direct drive is fine because you wont be replacing the tube much.
Even for flexibles I run bowden tube, just drill the extruder housing out and cut a V shape in a small piece of PTFE tube and shove it on the back side of the extruder gears. No binding or spitting the TPU out the side of the extruder. I honestly probably won't mess with direct drive again unless I start buying Prusa printers.
I love your videos. I've had my 3D printer for a week now and its impressive how deep the rabbit hole can go! I've managed to tweak quite a lot and i'm getting good quality prints, with decent printing times.
A hybrid direct drive conversion looks really interesting.
Great video of the two types of Extruder setups.
i will be changing my PTFE setup to direct drive on my Enders 3 v2
as i have had nothing but problems.
5 years i have been using direct drives and no problems
I really wish the remote drive systems were more popular and were being developed more. It really seems like the best solution and I can't figure out why it hasn't become the standard mechanism.
as the owner of a Zesty Nimble, I'm really happy with the thing, it might have a couple of design flaws, in the way it grips the filament, that being said, I also need to try the flex3drive ones that can use a Bondtech dual gear next.
Those hybrids look dope! Would love to see a breakdown/review/comparison of some :)
@Aaron Morrow Thanks for the tip! I'll have to look up that video :)
I love that you used a Tevo Tornado at 1:37 as your bowden printer example. I"ve been using my gold Tornado as my primary printer for 2 years and I'm always happy to see it over some other options you could have chosen. Thanks for another great video!
Great video! I've always wondered what that "ringing" was. I never knew what it was called or why it was happening, and I never really gave it any thought and always assumed it was just because I was printing too fast, and it was just one of the unavoidable facts of life when printing. Now I'm thinking about lightweight parts and learning what retraction can do.
Hmm... I think replacing a bowden drive for a direct drive is maybe a improvement for printers with a fast moving bed. However in the case of my printer, an Creality Ender 5, it will actually be worst. Here we do not have a fast moving building platform, but a platform that only moves slowly up and down. The main movement in X and Y direction is done by the print head. Adding mass to it will actually introduce more ringing to the point it is getting ugly. The best modification I made for now, is moving the stepper motor for the bowden from the side to the top, and thus shortening the bowden tube.
In this case a (very) light weight direct drive would be a solution. Sadly enough there is no one that I know about that would fit on a Ender 5. Most of the conversion kits even use the (heavy) original stepper motor, that is far to weighty and induce a LOT of ringing. So - For printers that use a fast XY movement and a slow up/down platform, there are no real working solutions.
I was thinking of doing to the upgrade to my ender 5 pro until I read your comment. Thanks for sharing your experience with your us.
@@tarigomar7982 The new Ender 3 S1 has a direct drive head (as far as I know the first Creality ever made) that has a pancake stepper motor plus a CR-touch and seems to be not that heavy. They are sold separately from the printer (at least the full metal ones), so maybe in the future they will also make a replacement for the standard Ender 5. I think it will be heartily welcomed by a lot of the Ender 5 users.
@@jclosed2516 I also had problems, but I solved it with a new nozzle that has a longer thread, so the bovden no longer heats up and the filament no longer flows around the bovden.
Great video as always 👍
I'm in the direct drive corner and with klipper and input shaping, you remove most of the gosting when printing
Thanks for sharing your experience with all of us 👍😀
I love these videos! I've been professionally using 3D printers for around 8 years now, and have developed some personal rules of thumb with various 3D printer things, but you delve deep into the inate properties of these various parts and processes in such a detail-oriented manner that I gain new language to describe what I mean. Thanks, and keep up the good work
Of course highly subjective: My first printer was a classic I3 clone with direct drive. Then i got two ender 3s, which in the first half year of their life printed flawlessly. But after that half year, problems in maintenance mounted. One thing you did not made particularly clear is that not only do you need to dial in retraction on bowdens, but the bowden tube itself introduces alot of possible error causes and calibration in general is a lot more tricky. In my example, i've replaced almost the entire print drive section from the bowden down to the hotend without getting anywhere near the actual cause of the problem(s). The bowden tube itself is of course a consumable and even with a fancy extruder setup you can end up with filament shavings in the tube, that can ruin your day completely, because of the long filament way to the hotend. The results are: cloggings, lots of cloggings, under extrusions, failure to feed and whatnot. I have had nothing but trouble. More than i've ever had with a direct drive.
I have converted both to a SKR Mini 3+ H2 combo and they print like a charm now. Granted the half year of the H2 is not quite over yet. So i might eat my own words soon. But so far: fingers crossed.
I feel like bowden gets a bad name because the older creality single gear setup with its lackluster hotend thats prone to jamming, they also have very low quality bowden couplers that work loose with retraction (which exacerbates the jamming issue) and the loose tolerance 2mm bowden tube vs Capricorn which I think is 1.8mm if I remember correctly.
I run an extremely lightweight bowden setup on my large delta and I can print petg stupid fast with my mosquito magnum.
Capricorn is 1.9 ID
same. Bowden is ideal for deltas as it's hard to fit the whole stepper on the small (and normally symmetrical) effector.
Indeed, Creality extruders can't keep up. If you want to print faster and more precise some upgrade is needed.
The only reason to go with bowden setup was extruder weight, especially on flimsy printer frames, but that's not an issue anymore. More and more printers are built from rigid metal profiles. And you can get very lightweight extruders, like LDO Orbiter, for quite cheap.
I'm fairly new to 3D printing and have only been using PLA so far, but the best upgrade to my Ender-3 (with bowden tube) was a BondTech BMG extruder. The stock Creality extruder is too weak. Not only is the single filament drive gear design inadequate, but even when this is working well the non-geared stock stepper motor tends to skip at certain times resulting in under (or at best inconsistent) extrusion. The 3:1 gear ratio of the BMG and the dual hardened steel drive gears solve these problems completely. Get the brand name BondTech because the clones are all much lower quality (from what I have read).
Better coupler and ptfe, I agree. Also the stock hotends NEEDS a Bi-metal heatbreak upgrade. Then hotend is alright
Direct drive has been my go to so far. More filament options, stronger pull, and if dialed in right, far better prints. I think a second Y axis would have made that direct drive printer work fine. The sag is solved more by a second Z than it could ever be by a linear rail which just adds more weight
A second Z you mean? And yeah a cantilever design is by it's construction, bound to have problems with flexibility on any direction. I feel like it would have been both better and still cheaper if they went with a 2nd Z (yeah it would basically be an i3 style but hey, if it works it works.
If you mean a 2nd Y to push the bed faster, that also is fairly interesting.
@@Kalvinjj I did mean a second Z, mistype my bad. Fixed it!
In my experience, If there’s a need to convert a direct drive machine to a Bowden to improve quality, the problem isn’t the extruder system, it’s the rest of the machine. A Bowden is like the skinny spare tire in your car; a quick temporary fix in exchange for tremendous performance limitations. The amount of head aches, tweaking and frustration getting it to print right should be considered torture.
... I think you mean the issue is user error. They aren't that difficult.
Good Video. Use Capricorn XS Tube, good couplers with clips, Dualgear geared Extruder, dial it in and you can get very close to direct drive. At least, if your printer is so small, that you don't need a long bowden. :)
Define long? If I have a 500x500x500 Voron, should I switch to direct drive or is the M4 sufficient?
Biggest problem I have with bowden is using flexible filaments, because it acts like a long spring inside the tube and builds pressure on the nozzle. Still you can tune the slicer to get acceptable results.
Man you are so perfect in explaining !
I am mostly into biology but Ive taken note of how to make tuts !!
Im upgrading from an i3clone to an Ender5, TH-cam suggested your video to me. Kudos !
I rarely have retract issues or filamet spider webs with my machines, bowden tube has a lot of pluses at least on the Anycubic I3 atchitecture, the stepper motor for the gantry side to side movement is balanced with the filament drive stepper motor (which many people incorrectly refer to as the extruder)in the injection molding industry extruder is a machine that processes and converts plastic pellets through hot nozzle, into a solid long shape, the plastic is extruded through the extruder head in this case, but the complete machine can also be referred to as a plastic extruder for simplicity. However on 3D printer you have a stepper driver that is actually driving or delivering the plastic filament to the extruder head therefor the extruder is the hot end assembly.
In the case of the anycubic I3 Mega, the filament driver motor also holds the bowden tube at the opposite end, this symmetry in grantry mass is important, but more important is keeping the print head as light as possible.
While direct drive has it pluses, for certain types and size of machines, ease of filament entry and hot end servicing, bowden tube in an architecture as I just described, with the Anycubic I3 machine, is best. I have yet to see a head design in direct drive that is light enough to obtain fast and consise prints on a table top machine.
I am A maker and I have come up with a new Bowden tube fitting to replace the push to connect fittings and would like to have you try them out. they can be found on Capricorn tube web site. they are called lemonade fittings. We took lemons and made lemonade. Thank you for all the great reviews I have been a fan of yours for years keep up the great work keeping us informed and empowered
While my Ultimaker machines do great with Bowden , just about all my Y slingers are direct drive now. No annoying Bowden tube pop outs!
I recently converted my CR10 V2 to DD and my prints improved immensely. I will never go back to a Bowden setup.
I’m gonna be honest, I have a direct drive printer, and a bowden printer (A Maker Select V2, and a CR10 respectively), and can I honestly say for regular printing with say PLA, ABS, ASA, etc has been better for me with the bowden style
Flexdrives are interesting ...lightweight for speed ..but they are like 40:1 which completely defeat the high speed purpose. Though I haven't tried but there might be a way to up gear that on the motor and run a kickass bldc motor? Something to tinker maybe :) I might order a kit. But I'm afraid of chewing gears on the print head at high speed and high accel
Another hybrid:
Bowden extruder to deliver material at constant rate over time, small servo (voice-coil?) at the hot-end.
Servo adjusts distance between Bowden fitting and hot-end, modulating nozzle pressure.
Voice coils are very fast, strong and with a simple feedback loop can sense back-pressure in the filament!
Feed-back servos will go where they are told to and use as much power as needed to do so.
Monitoring the power consumption of the servo gives a reading of nozzle pressure!
Retraction now has an identifiable signal.
When you prioritize speed over quality, use bowden, and vice versa.
When i convert my 3d printer to DD configuration, i was blown by the prints quality. But when i want to reach a higher speeds, the quality suffer. Then i convert back again to bowden, just because i think the faster speed worth more than the small imperfection on the prints.
I also converted my Ender 3 Pro to direct drive because of stringing. Way easier to tune it for better print quality. Option to print flexibles better is a nice bonus. I don't try to print the fastest I can, because I need to print stuff only once a while. So I'm fine with waiting a bit longer for the benefit of better quality.
I treat my 3D printer as an another tool in my workshop, as e.g. a driller. It needs to work reliably, that's it.
I have a RostockMax 3.2 delta, with a really long bowden tube on it (probably over 600mm), and I have to say, I have had very few problems with stringing.. I print with 7mm retraction, when retracting at all (I usually have combing mode always on), but still... stringing is very rarely an issue for me.
That said, I have printed almost exclusively in ABS here, with some occasional PLA... have never tried a properly difficult material to push through a bowden, like TPU... I expect that would be a new challenge.
You mentioned advancements in hardware, but don't forget about software too. Klipper and freshly RRF feature input shaper which helps iron out some artifacts caused by moving heavier heads. It's not universal cure and people may protest that it's software which fixes hardware, but ... it is what it is 😃
If we don't count Nitram's Delta printer, fastest speedboatracers feature DDE of some kind (Galileo or HextrudORT).
Only issue I'd see on a hybrid extruder would be backlash from the flex driver. Other than that it would still be much easier to tune out than a bowden extruder.
Thanks for not mentioning flexible filaments only being suited to direct drive - its an old myth that needs to die. It only pervades because most bowden extruders don't have constrained paths.
Also, I prefer bowden because I can mount my heavy spools to the side of the printer completely unconnected rather than on top, which reduces ringing and increases stability.
Still loving my ender 3 with klipper. The quality is great, and I can even print TPU on stock Bowden, but dual gear extruder
I had no idea you were lawsy! I had a solid doodle as well and used your designs to start creating my own hot end mounts and extruder mounts. Awesome!
Well an other middle way option was to have a suspended extruder, like in the Delta printers, which is a very short bowden with the extruder hangin' in there suspended from the top. Also, do you happen to print minis or maybe some short prints with flexible? Just make a short bowden for those prints so you can improve retraction.
You are the best! You've helped me so much with my Ender 3, Thanks for the hard work you put into your videos.
I converted my ender 3 from a Bowden tube setup to direct drive mainly because I started printing some stuff in TPU and I was having a hell of a time getting it to print through the stock bowden setup.
if you have a bowden setup that gives you trouble i think the first step should be to shorten the tube. in the tronxy yuo could halve the length of the bowden if you mount it in the center of the printer :-)
Thats what i started with, still isnt a scratch on direct drive for any speed of printing.
Converted my x5s-400 to a tool changer now. Still on the stock crappy vslot wheals but even with a very heavy directdrive supervolcano (1.4mm nozzle) i have less issues than with the bowden.
The watercoold bmg clone with bimetalic heatbreak from triangle labs is my favourite for detailed stuff though
Appreciate the perspective. I am new to 3d printing. Just trying to nail down why I keep getting clogs in my hot end on my bowden tube printer. About to try the micro swiss all metal hot end. 🤞
Makes sense you would want the least amount of weight, load on the print head. I was wondering why the direct drive was so popular due to its inherent design flaws. Even with the compact motor and design, I would think you are still running a heaver head. The hybrid system looks like the most feasible for weight distribution. Thank you for the insight btw, great video.
Been thinking of going the DD route on my CR10-S5 ... it seems my S5 is a good candidate :-) Thanks for your valuable videos!!!
interesting video I was thinking about changing from Bowden to Direct drive but now I can see that it would offer me no real advantages, also learned what ringing is so everyday a learning day thanks.
my first printer the Anet A8 had direct drive and I built a lighter carriage w/ a geared extruder and pancake stepper motor thinking the mass reduction would majorly improve ringing and such. it helped a little, but after moving on to Prusa Mk3's which have a direct drive head which is super heavy and the Ender 3 which has a typical bowden, I've learned that other factors like the stiffness of the frame are much more important.
My Hypercube Evolution is bowden, and my Ender 3 has a hemera. I can attest to the fact that a well tuned bowden setup can be on par with direct drive. Having a powerful extruder and capricorn tube helps a lot. Placement of the extruder motor at a strategic place, near the center of the travel of the axis, can really cut the length of your bowden tube down as well. On my 300mm^3 Hevo the extruder is placed at X=0 and Y=150.
That being said, I'd still choose a direct drive over bowden.
Ha! I always had that idea, never had issues with a good bowden setup. Good being the key here.
How about flying extruders that try to keep as short a tube as possible while using a bowden set up?
I switched from a flying extruder on my delta to a sherpa mini because the flying extruder was creating a lot of vibrations and imparting them onto the print. Sherpa mini is so light that speed is not a factor
@@kazolar I have a flying setup as well, and solved the vibrations with a damped suspension instead of straight elastic. It works quite well with a 13cm bowden. I'll have videos of the current one (using an LGX) posted sometime soon, but I used the same damping setup on a flying Nimble and have a old video of that on my channel. (Flying Nimble wasn't worthwhile, but flying LGX is excellent.)
I think I've seen a printer in one of Thomas sanladeres videos of a fair, where somebody builded a printer with 4 Hotends, filing extruder and counterweights to counter the impulse of the extruders. 3 kinematic systems, probably very expensive, but super cool in my opinion.
@@kazolar I've got a flying extruder on mine as well currently and been thinking about getting the orbiter extruder and make mine a direct drive.
I am brand new to 3D printing. I am astonished that Michael did not mention IDEX at all. High-quality retraction is critical for dual extruder printers, even IDEX, which is coming into the right price point now. IDEX should lead to multi-composition prints, too, not just multi-color. Retracting TPU and even PVA are very important with dual extruders, independent or not--and direct drive seems to provide superior retraction. To my surprise, there are popular IDEX printers with Bowden-tube setups, and naturally, the reviews show that the filaments bleed into each other on prints via oozing and stringing.
Running the flexdrive G5 with the printrite bed cover and its great for higher printspeeds with the low mass and good control over extrusion
Excellent explanation. Just would like to add that bowden especially have its strengths when it comes to dual hotend setups for multi material extrusion....
I think it really depends on the 3D printer, for example my delta printer printhead ways only 100g and can do crazy speeds.
Would be a real bummer to put a directdrive on that.
And for some use cases for example mechanical printing speed is more important than having a little stringing.
i think dd has the edge for what i do. especially the new creality extruder on my ender 3 s1. I'm blown away by the print quality.
Printers with a single upright support for the X axis (such as the Ender 2, Printerbot mini, Prusa Mini, etc) are good candidates for using a Bowden tube extruder. Ditto for printers that might have dual upright supports, but only one stepper motor drive screw along one of uprights for the z axis.
OTOH, printers with two uprights and two drive screws for the Z axis can support a direct drive extruder with fewer problems. Note that when a direct drive extruder is used, a larger stepper motor for the X axis is usually required, along with a motor driver circuit that can handle the extra current such a motor requires.
Note that Creality mounted their extruder on the X axis off to the side rather than on the top or bottom of the printer which still places the burden of lifting it on the Z axis motor, which means that a beefier Z motor is STILL required (though only one, not two). Since the extra weight of the extruder does not have to be moved, the X axis motor can be of lower power, and the X axis movement can still have good speed and acceleration. Also since the weight of the extruder is at the lift point of the X axis and is never at the far end of it, there won't be any bending moment on the axis, which could happen in a single upright system with a direct drive extruder. Still on a small printer it's best to NOT mount the bowden extruder on the X axis with a single upright support!
This means living with a longer bowden tube, or keeping the max build height smaller. Design compromises!!!
Direct drive with an external stepper motor driven though a 'speedometer' cable is an interesting idea, IF that cable is as flexible as a bowden tube.
Noticed you're an F1 fan, any chance of some 1/12 scale prints builds? Most of the deluxe model kits are 1/12 and it would be cool make a front row grid of a given era, 1989?
I've only been 3d Printing for about 3 weeks, and the first printer I got was actually a Direct Drive from Creality (CR-10 V3), not sure when this printer came out, but maybe Creality isn't a Bowden only company anymore?
I was looking for a quick succinct tutorial that I can refer to a friend who wants to get into 3d printing. This fits prefect. Thanks!
I’m currently using Bowden but planning to buy another printer for direct drive.
Your mk5 extruder for the Solidoodle helped me so much back then! Thank you!
I find the Bowden is easier to remove and strip down the hot end when there is a blockage etc. (re assembing the direct drive of my Mecreator 2 vs my Ender Creality 3 v2)
I use a couple of years a prusa mk3, and now I get him an Ender 3 max as big brother for the more "coarse" prints with a .6 mm nozzle.
After a few prints, i saw no disadvantages of bowden drive compared with the direct driven prusa while printing. What sucks more is the filament change and the fiddling through all instances. On the prusa the filament is changed in seconds. (If heated up)
Sure, the first on my Ender i ve done is the trick with the separate PTFE tube and a washer inside the hotend, because so many people seem to ran into issues with the direct tube line from the drive ending directly in the hotend. The reason is the Tube slips due to movements and builds a gap in the hotend where meltetd filament then jams.
Anyway, i would rather invest in a better hotend w/o PTFE inlet than replace the extruder to a direct drive.
Just got an Ender 3 Pro two weeks ago because I wasn't sure how into 3d printing I'd get and didn't want to invest too much. I got pretty into it.
I've already done all your typical ender upgrades but left the hot end stock because I knew it could eventually be converted to DD.
I think I'm gonna use it for another couple weeks, get it even more dialed in and then see how I feel. Any one have any takes?
If you get it dialed in you might want to hold off on the DD upgrade. Why mess with it if it works? I've made the mistake of tinkering with one that was working and throwing it off. Upgrading and modding them is fun tho. Happy Printing!
I have no problem with Bowden except tuning retraction which is a pain in the arse
use Klipper with Pressure Advance. it basically eliminates 95% of retraction
Klipper is great. On the flip side: Klipper / DD with input shaping has eliminated 95% of ringing from me.
@@GridSpace nope. Not on long Bowdens.
@@fish9468 I have 3 x 300^3 printers with 400mm bowden tubes that have gone down to a 1mm retraction after installing Klipper ... YMMV
@@GridSpace not a delta tho!
Gear direct drive extruder with a Volcano hot end with total weight print head of 300g on my delta + klipper firmware = high speed and excellent quality without vibrations and ringing.
The dual extruder setup is a bit tricky to make direct drive, it’s definitely where the hybrid can have a niche, but I would also choose it for my delta since it’s much more sensitive to extra weight.
I printed just printed the DD bracket for ender 3 and used the stock extruder..done direct drive. I havent tested it a lot but i have no more extruder skipping wich was driving me nutz. only issue so far is that the Z axis screw started to make a high pich noice when moving,thats from vibration easily fixable. I do recomend dual Z motors for the added weight because the thing feels heavy at least with the stock stepper