#10MinuteTalk
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 ก.ย. 2024
- One of those very important variables in shooting performance and accuracy that so many of us take for granted or never think to check - the twist rate of the barrel in our rifle. What is the twist rate, why is it so important to consider, how do different twist rates affect our projectiles and how can you figure out which twist rate is best for your application? Ryan Muckenhirn joins Jimmy and Mark to drop some knowledge on the subject!
As always, we want to hear your feedback! Let us know if there are any topics you'd like covered on the Vortex Nation podcast by asking us on any one of our social media platforms and using #VortexNationPodcast.
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That was great. Just change it to “20 minutes talks” already 😂
Amen! Although I did watch one last week that was under 11 minutes 😜
Just have all the 10s of minutes of talks. I think we all agree that 20,30,40, even a hour of good information is great to have.
I almost feel ripped off if it's only 10min.
These videos are recorded in “wife getting ready” time.
I actually enjoy the fact that the discussion goes over 10 minutes. I am learning so much from you guys. Keep up the good work!
I agree
Late to the party, but I love these 20 / 10 minute talks. Very informative for my old brain.
Tighter twist rates also increase surface speed, heat from friction, heat from pressure, barrel wear from increased friction on hotter metals, copper fouling, bullet jacket damage etc.
That’s what I came to say. When people say they want fastest twist rate that’s “reasonable” they need to remember they are exponentially wrecking their barrel.
Bingo. People think they know more than the engineers who designed it, certain twist rates, bullet weights have their sweet spots .
Change the video series to 20 minute talk. 10 minutes isn't long enough for all the great info.
Great show guys , Whats the best twist rate for a 308 ?
Over 20 minutes no problem, great discussion! I Learned a lot ! Thank you gentlemen 👍
The barrel twist vs barrel length issue is mainly related to muzzle velocity. The twist rate formulas ask for muzzle velocity bullet weight and shape. This is because what matters for stability is the revolutions-per-minute. To get this, you need the correct combination of twist rate and velocity as the bullet reaches the end of the barrel. A lower velocity needs a higher twist rate to get the proper RPM's. With a 223 Rem, for example, the speed of a bullet at the end of an 8" barrel will be lower than the speed of the bullet at the end of a 20" barrel. To get the same RPM's the twist rate of the short barrel will need to be faster than the long one.
Thanx that was sum good info
Where is the progressive twist rate 10 minute talk?
Progressive twist rate? Ok, mind blown! I had never heard of such a thing
I almost spit out my coffee when Ryan started yelling like the bullet going down the barrel 🤣 great talk fellas!
The football spiral analogy is what I used to explain rifling to my son. Gyroscopic stabilization is such a cool example of genius meets physics.
My 300 WM with a 1:10 loves the 195 grain ELDM but my groups really opened up with 200 grain ELDX. 180’s tend to work pretty well too
I'm not a professional by any stretch of the imagination but I have done quite a bit of shooting, and what I have found is with 55 grain bullets a 1/7 or 1/8 are perfect at 100 yards, for 5.56. My Grendel has a 1/7 twist rate heavy stainless barrel and it holds a .5" groups at 100 yards with wolf fmj ammo out of a 16" barrel. Both of my 5.56 barrels are also 16".
I love 1/7 in 18" or 16". Always have superb accuracy from 50gr-77gr
I have an older mini 14 with a 1:7 twist. Ruger now makes barrels with a 1:9 twist. I suspect they did this to reduce the dispersion when shooting a 55 grain bullet. I’ve been thinking about what I need to shoot if I want to reduce dispersion by hopefully achieving the same rate of bullet spin. If I assume a 55 grain bullet has a muzzle velocity of 3250 ft/sec., 3250/9x7 would give me a desired muzzle velocity of 2528 ft/sec. A 77 grain bullet has a published muzzle velocity of around 2800 ft/sec. I think I’m going to see how 77 grain ammunition works. Since the bullet is a little longer, my 2528 ft/sec should be a little too slow.
@Vortex Nation Podcast will you guys please revisit this Podcast Subject. It's 2 years old now and there has to be new data on barrel twist rates involving BARREL LENGTH. PLEASE GUYS I'M A BIG FAN AND A DISABLED VETERAN. Appreciate ya!
I just love the quick talks, perfect way to test the water to do an in depth talk.
I needed to hear this discussion. This gives me something to think about when I am reloading for my rifles. I will be paying attention to what my twist rates are so I can avoid trying to load something that my rifle will not like. This will save me time AND money. GOOD TALK!
Hornady just came out with a twist rate video not to long ago that that expands on the formula that Ryan mentioned and also talks about a more accurate formula. It's a really good video kinda technical talk but its it's definitely worth watching
Finally i found something besides forgotten weapons, honest outlaw, paul harrel thats worth watching. Old kentucky ballistics are cool cgexk those out.
I've shot my 7 TCU Contender with 14 inch barrel to 500 yards with a Hornady 154 gr. SST going 1900 fps. Hit 6 of 10 rams with enough energy to knock the 50 lb. rams over. Barrel length only relates to the velocity part of the stabilization part of the formula. Use the Berger stability calculator to determine twist rate needed for stabilization.
As more copper solids are used ...or required... this will be more of an issue, especially in older hunting rifles and cartridges. To maintain the mass, copper solids get longer and longer.
Can't believe you make this poor guy use up his 10 minute breaks for this stuff lol. Good info
Progressive twist. That does sound like magic.
I’m a beginner in firearms this was some great information!
I've noticed that since I was a youth hunter and the fact that the AR platform has become so popular, the 223 deer hunting rifles of my youth have seemed to become less available. I started with a 243 but I knew quite a few of my friends that were using 223 rifles when we were 12 or so. Seems like now that cartridge is viewed as a varmint cartridge and is way less popular for deer. Conversation aside, as to whether or not someone should use that small of a cartridge for deer, it has been done for decades, but now seems harder to find a deer hunting twist rate for a 223 bolt gun.
10 minute talk idea the underrated 35 Whelen the poor man's Magnum
mine has a 1 in 14 twist.
Would like to see u guy discuss pistol cartridges in rifles.
Yes. Increased twist rate if it is aggressive it could potentially cause overpressure. So if you were shooting a heavier bullet at an aggressive twist rate, you're going to want to reload with the slower burn rate powder. And this is especially true if you are running a long barrel.
I can add a little bit of info to bullets coming apart from what ive seen with 223's. I have experience with bullet failures in f class with the 223. Shooting the 90 vld's after about 600 rounds on a barrel is when the issue starts usually. It appears that fire cracking in the throat is one of the main contributors. Keeping carbon out of the barrel seems to prolong bullet life. So, maybe it is more of a carbon building up in the fire cracking than it is the fire cracking itself. Barrel temperature seems to exasperate the issue also. In the cooler spring and fall temperatures it is has been less of a problem making it through a 60 round match.
I would guess twist rate did play a part in bullets coming apart in ryan muckenhirn's situation, along with "damage" to the bullet from fire cracking in the throat area and barrel heat. I believe that a bullet being spun so fast is the final straw. Looking at bullet rpm's you can really see the difference.
20min is the new 10min
Love the videos
I would love to sit around a campfire after a good day hunting just talking to Ryan about any given subject.
Hello Guys, thank you very much for your podcast,. What bullet weights would be good for 1/11 twist rate for a .30-06 tikka t3x?
Did you find out ?
223 comments so far on the video lol excellence
Just ran across this channel...could have been an hour. Learned a lot, just enough that I need to learn much more.
Great, to the point, with no intros and crap
I sure appreciate your knowledge it helps understand things :) I’m a self taught hunter out here in beautiful BC thanks so very much
That last question regarding twist rates and pressure was worth the time. As usual, great discussion. This old dog is learning some new tricks.
So would you say that the faster the twist rate, the slower the muzzle velocity? Say you shot a 180gr 300 wm out of a 1:10, you should get muzzle velocity right around 2900-3000 fps. If you dropped the twist rate to a 1:9, would your muzzle velocity also drop to let's say 2750-2850 fps because the energy has transferred from forward propulsion to rotational force?
I think of the #10minutetalk more of a ten minutes minimum
Could you guys bring out the .17 Remington?
I have one and it's by my means, the best warmint caliber ever. The barrel life is short, but the speed..
Never been around anything that kan mach these velosities.
So given that very light bullets flying apart when overtwisted is actually uncommon, would it be more common for these bullets (which already probably have pretty poor BC) to just deform a little bit totally messing up their ballistics?
That's a very good question I'd like to hear an answer to.
Quick answer.....yes. So looking at something like a 204 ruger or 22-250 with light jacketed light weight bullet with the BC of a ping-pong ball, one little imperfection on the bullet "can" effect group size. Spinning a bullet apart these days isn't as uncommon as you might think. Load a 40-50gr varmint bullet in a 224 valkyrie with a 1:6.5tw barrel and watch lol. Also I've seen where a bullet will stabilize in Denver but not in Houston......elevation has some play on things also.
I've got an old mint condition ruger no1 in 243 with a 26" barrel. It wont shoot well with most 80gr and not at all with the 100gr. 80gr sako powerblade copper shot the best. I used a cleaning rod to try to know the twist. I think it's 10". Maybe a 58gr vmax would shoot better? What twist were they making older ruger no1 in? I love the gun but I want more accuracy.
1 in 7 is for the military for tracer rounds...and everyone wants to copy that for no good reason at all. Hence why everyone will want 1 in 7...
I get down with a 1 in 8 or 9 myself. Unless you get into very heavy ammo 8.6 and all that.
Several " barrel twist" videos claim that it is mostly length and little weight. They use weight because length plus substance (metal) equals weight. So, is it actuality length, or weight? Will a 100 +/- gr short, round nose lead&copper use the same twist as a solid copper or "plastic" tipped copper bullet? Just Asking
260 Remington is a wonderful cartridge, 125gr Nosler Partition.
Hello Guys. I think that you guys are absolutely awesome and very knowledgeable. So, don't take this the wrong way. I have asked this same question to other esteemed ballistic scholars such as Phil Cashin and Ron Gervase. I honestly question that anyone has ever really experienced or seen a twist rate that is so extreme that it causes a projectile to come apart. I think that the handful of times that people think that have seen it, they actually saw something else (i.e. your gun was terrible aligned, gas coming from a suppressor, etc.). I would challenge this. We can find countless videos online of ballistic gel tests. Why haven't we ever seen a video where someone demonstrated this twist rate issue (i.e. .308 shot from a 1:5 barrel) to prove the point. 8.6 Blackout feels like an example of how you can twist a huge bullet really fast. Please know that I am putting this out here so that someone will prove or disprove this theory once and for all.
So I’ve purchased some 195gr 30 cal long range bullets to reload for my stainless Ruger .30-06. The gun was built about 1994 so I’m assuming about a 1:10 twist rate. I’ve reloaded many 150 (special) ,165, 180, and 210 (special) grain bullets for this gun and a 1970 Remington .30-06. I’m also assuming the Rem has a 1;10 twist. I have sweet formulas for those loads yet this bullet is so long I feel I’ll either be seating the bullet to shallow thus running to far forward (to deep) in the action or l’ll seat it so I end up compressing the actual powder. The 210gr is used in heavy brush during close range elk/moose/bear ”tracking shots” (lighter powder charge) whereas this 195 grain LR bullet will be for the opposite type shots. At this point it’s intended to be a .30 cal experiment. Building and dialing in the load will be interesting yet I wonder; based on your twist rate talk, am I asking for a nightmare of tumbling or inverted bullets? Will that bullet seating be a really critical element to this experiment? What other factors may become critical that I may need to consider? I’ve had exceptional accuracy and knockdown power out to 400 yards with a Barnes 180gr lead soft point. This has led me in the direction of looking at LR bullets and capabilities. I don’t favor long shots over spot and stalk. When I have opportunities I favor the knock down (usually less than 200 yards on elk -as little as 18 once- and 275 yards on deer). As I age all and new opportunities need consideration.
506,880 RPM.
A .22-250 loaded with a 40 grain bullet leaving the muzzle at 4,224 FPS with a 1:6" twist would be the RPM of that bullet at the muzzle. That's the actual value to his hypothetical scenario.
Talking about modern bullets. Guns and bullets are like cars and engines. Back in the day 500hp from an engine was like holy 💩 but in comparison to modern engines it's like eh 500hp eh that's alright. The new holy 💩 hp of today lies between 800-1500hp. Where back in the day it was 5-600 MAYBE 650.
I’ve seen bullets spin apart with a 1/10 twist rate using questionable jacket .308 win 150gr bullets made by magtech. I couldn’t see my hits on paper at 100 yards. I shot a paper target at 10 yards and it looked like a mini shotgun patterning.
I would think the rate the bullet was actually spinning would depend on only twist rate and muzzle velocity. Because longer barrels typically increase muzzle velocity, barrel length would affect bullet spin speed.
Should introduce the 20min or 30min talks.
I wish a certain manufacturer would twist their barrels a little bit faster.. *cough cough* Browning. (1:12 on a .308 isn't cutting it)
Don't forget increasing twist rate reduces mechanical accuracy. Unless the bullet is perfectly concentric, spinning it faster increases "wobble". Higher BC bullets also have a lower mechanical accuracy (0-300yds) when not accounting for aerodynamics. They are less aerodynamically stable because the distance between the center of pressure and center of gravity is farther apart. This makes the bullet want to flip and fly butt first with the center of gravity forward. You actually want to spin the bullet as slow as possible, but still achieve gyroscopic stability. This will maximize mechanical accuracy. Higher twist rate isn't always better. It is a necessary evil to get the ballistic advantage of shooting a higher BC bullet for long range. Accuracy suffers.
I do have question on twist rate I I got 6.5 creedmore savage110. 24inch barrel 1.8 twist rate can't get accurate with honady bullets wifes 6.5 creedmore howa 24 inch 1.8 twist can shoot excellent with hornady .. is twist rate same depth and width on all 6.5 or is it different
I bought my son a 6.5cm mossberg patriot short barrel. And the heavy weight 143 gn bullets wouldn’t shoot. They would either miss completely or a few hits I had were key holed. The mid weight bullets shot just fine.
What no one can explain me why she same manufacturer uses a 1:10 twist for a .44magnum on a revolver and a very slow 1:28 twist on a rifle for the same caliber. Even if one has almost half the barrel length than the other (8.375” vs 16”), that difference in twist rate is jarring.
Take the time you need to cover the topic,, besides, what's an extra 10 between friends? Plus you know what they say; longer is always better ;-) or something like that...
I have made 110 grain plinder bullets explode in space after loading them hot out of my 30-06 the little jacket goes somewhere and the lead turns to a small grey puff. Probably not good for the environment.
What twist rate or barrel would I need to make a 10/22 or 22LR Precision Rifle?
Sako fails on twist rates for .204 ruger. They still make 1/12 only good for 32 gr 40 gr keyhole. 1/11 or 1/10 is what they should be. Sako is behind the times in twist rates
Ok, so extreme outcomes are interesting but not what I'm listening for - do we need to know that a bullet will evaporate at a 1:6 twist? In practical terms, why choose 1:9 (Bergara Premier) vs. 1:14 (Christensen Arms) for a 22-250? Now that's an answer that would be worth hearing.
If you shoot heavier for caliber bullets, get the faster twist. If you’re shooting the lighter end of the spectrum, get the slower twist. I don’t have direct experience with the caliber, but in the similar diameter .223 a 1:14 would be used for
1:14" twist is good for lighter bullets and higher velocity.
"power driver" haha, love hearing non-laborers talking about tools. "tools on tools; what will they come up with?"
Good talk guys, I have an older 243 that shoots 100gr hunting bullets great. I have recently started coyote hunting and experimenting with lighter bullets. I have been trying to learn about it but everyone seems to go to heavier long range but I’m trying the other direction. Either way this is great info. Just another reason my 1:9.25twist 700 is very versatile.
I’m looking at getting a tikka 300wsm but it has a 1-11 twist and I want to shoot the TA 200 grain. What are your thoughts?
I disagree. Bergara is only manufacturer that offers their 22.250 in a twist rate that is not 12" or 14".
So what would u run if ur 308win had a 1:9.5 twist rate ??? What grain ???
Remington twisted the .244 Remington to slow. They twisted the 6mm Remington 1 in 9.
It’s called gain twist rifling the Italians used it in the Carcano rifles
Gain twist barrels were tried off and on years before Carcano went for it, including post-Civil War target rifles, and even some muzzleloading rifles. Generally, the theoretical benefits didn't translate to real-world benefits.
what did you guts talke about at the 4:58 mark? explain yourselfs
huh correction on last ... not alpha... XPR models
The 460 Smith & Wesson Magnum revolver has a progressive twist rate in it
They must use my fiancées sense of time. But in this scenario its good to go over love these guys
3:04 Shooting cast bullets in my 30-06s with their 1 in 10 twists, I can only get to 1900fps before my bullet wants to come apart. My 30-30 with the 1 in 12 twist, I can get to 2300fps; makes it superior to the 30-06s while using cast bullets.
Tikka and sake are beautiful guns but i think a bit behind on twist rates still making 1:11
Thanks for doing this one guys, it’s good to understand this better and fun to hear Ryan’s stories. It would be great to hear more about progressive twist barrels on future podcasts. Thanks again
I’m waiting on the 10 hour 10 minute talk.
Who in hell thought fast twist for heavy bullets was a myth? I don't know where bearing surface comes into it.
There is also velocity to consider in stabilisation.
Oops, wrong clip. Sorry.
Anyone have a 30-06 with a twist under 1: 10
Keep at it guys! Ten minutes or more, no problem. Love this type of conversation.
Coarse vs fine threads on a wood screw vs a metal bolt
What a load of horrible information. The weight has absolutely nothing to do with it. Its all about bullet length.
Bullet weight affects bullet length.
Hi! I shoot 100/105 grains 243 with my 24 inches 1/10 twist X-Bolt and it stabilise perfectly...
🖖🏻🇫🇷😎🇫🇷😎🇫🇷🖖🏻
Progressive twist are used more in the Air Riffle domain it seems. 🙏🏻
Oddly enough, I am just now Building an AR 10, 6.5 CM with 1:8 Twist.... Figuring 130 to 140 Grain Bullets... Wanting to do the right thing and giving myself a Headache...
Lighter bullet materials require a longer bullet, all other things being equal. That’s why Sierra told me a .308 with 1:12 twist was fine up to 190 grains but Barnes (all copper) said 162 grains was their upper limit.
Also note that the 8.6 Blackout is spun 1:3. Yikes!
Great Stuff ' 💥💥💥💥💥💥💥
Best grain for a 30.06 1-11 twist
Is that why Weatherby always has slower twist rates?
8.6 Blackout uses 1:3 twist rate. 5.56 80+gr works best with 1:7 or 1:6. Terminal performance is extremely affected by twist rate, too. Solid copper or bronze bullets deal with the fastest twists better than lead core. IMO
BC, SD, MV seem to work together to determine optimal twist rate. The 8.6 Blackout is an excellent example of a seemingly ludicrous combination of factors with completely unexpected and superior terminal results. It should trigger some experimentation with other caliber combinations. I see the 60gr, .22rimfire subsonic prefers 1:12, 1:13 twist whereas the 45gr and lighter bullets do best with lazy 1:16 twist.
Twist rates are the thing that determines how expensive your ammo is... Done 😂
Big facts lol. That Barnes precision 85gr 5.56 ammo is not cheap. Lol
@vettelover2009 me and my father use to when I was much much younger. 20+ years ago. Reloading gave me my love affair with the .22-250. I will eventually get back into loading. Unfortunately as a poor cant afford that at the time. But for sure if you want accuracy their is only one way.
I think it comes down to what the rifle likes.
I have a 1:7, a 1:8 and a 1:9 barrels for my .A/R. The 1:7 is pretty good for 69-77 gr bullets. The 1:8 I use for 65-77 gr. It’s a tack driver with 65 gr. Also really good with 69 gr. Opens up some with 77 gr.. I use the 1:9 for varmit loads from 40-55 gr.
Haven’t found one that is good with 62 gr. My rifle just does not like 62 gr pills. I just stay with my 1:8 now. Got to be to big of a hassle to change out barrels.
It changes the rpm of the bullet
Learnage! Love this show
Holly crapbi didn't know about this video!! Whatching ya ll for a year now. I planning in the comments about NOT having this TALK.... it was hear the whole time!!
Agitating for me to explain it to people so now I can just send them this link!!
I got a 9mm 4.5 inch barrel but 1 in 16 twist..... Is that OK or un affective ? Does anyone know? I been shooting 115gr 9mm out to 30-40 yards and perfect bullet holes it seems. Would I be more accurate with a 1/10 twist barrel?
Do a ballistic calc on a 140gr eldm going 2750 out of a 1/8 vs a 147gr eldm going 2700 out of a 1/7.... more weight and twist is not always better. Cause more drift and less FPS. Every case/charge has a balance. It’s really only ever been about how much powder through diameter.... and there is a perfect size and twist for those two things.
Dealing with that problem in my 1941 mod 70 with a J.E Gibby 22 varminter barrel 1 in 14 twist. 40gr nosler's all touch and 62gr tsx's are .252" groups.
Great discussion. If reloading, by decreasing the velocity compensate for stabilization?
not always. entirely depends on the bullet you use, the powder and primer you use and the barrel you intend to launch them out of. when you hand load, you (rule of thumb) do 10 cartridges, at each .03 grain incremental powder charge. at some point, if you dont see pressure signs first, you will see groups open up from going too fast. its theoretical mostly, but some of that is the bullet being pushed too fast and some of it is the barrel harmonics. in slow motion you can actually see the barrel vibrate and "whip" around as the bullet gets launched. its microscopic in movent with a thicker barrel, but very noticeable in a thinner barrel. so, short answer yes, long answer, depends.
also try, " johnys reloading bench" channel. he explains alot of things in a very friendly easy to understand way.
Thinking about a new barrel for my .270 WSM and wondering about going from its original 1:10 to 1:9. Would there be any downside? I would think it would stabilize a longer bullet, but would it be worse for my more standard rounds?
A M4 Carbine standard ammo is 62 grain M855 ball ammo. The twist rate of the M4 is 1-in-7. Standard barrel length of the M4 is 14.5 inches.