At 16:52 ‘almost sounds like a whole tone thing, but not quite’ The notes are Ab Bb D and F - a Bb7 arpeggio Bb7 is the tritone sub of E7 Do you think Benson was thinking Bb7 over E7?
Benson has found how to add spontaneous chromatic sophistication to his playing by being comfortable sliding up and down the fret board and playing more notes per string rather than having to jump across a strings. Also, because Benson almost always does rest stroke picking, even more so he always has his left hand to slide left and right for chromatics rather than reaching up or down to the next string, that way he does not have to switch to free stroke picking... Dan Wilson does this as well.
He actually adapted that style very early in his career because when he attempted to jump strings he couldn't do it with precision and it slowed him down. He decided to try playing linear across the neck and found it much easier and cleaner so for him it became the norm. Edit: It's hard to listen to him now and imagine he ever suffered any difficulties in his attempt to play anything lol
Really enjoyed your commentary. One thing that kind of jumps out at me is so many players sound alike to an extent… maybe it can’t be avoided because their approach maybe similar…and it’s the style of the music. Always loved Benson and his mix of jazz, blues, R&B and it sounds like he’s having fun.
I never delved into Barry's approach for lines, but i definitely studied his approach to harmony and how chords are related and connected. Really filled in some major gaps in seeing the whole fretboard.
If you listen to the videos of George Benson talking about his playing that are out there… He's absolutely never thinking of having any specific notes land on any specific beat. He just sees all 12 notes of the chromatic scale as available options at any given moment and appreciates all of them and the sound and emotion that they make relative to the root or the harmony. Many people will disagree with me but I personally feel like the act of trying to intentionally place specific notes on specific beats is the most useless exercise in the entire jazz academia, at least for guitarists like your saying...most really good spontaneous players just end up doing that in certain instances because it's the sound they're hearing from listening to their favorite players and comrades, and it just sounds good sometimes to put certain notes on certain beats but in all of the examples that we love to sit and analyze, this happens naturally and spontaneously, not in a calculated way. It's all usable sounds. What beat it happens on just seems so irrelevant even if it is an observable pattern and music. How on earth does trying to play specific chord tones on specific beats make you sound any more creative or soulful? It doesn't. In fact it usually has the opposite effect… Seems to make people sound sterile and robotic. I'll never see the usefulness in that but I'm glad it helps so many people I guess... like you're saying, probably more useful for horn and piano players. But soulful improvising guitarists like Benson and Wes and beyond just never thought that way.
Agreed! I think people need to try to understand the perspective of a new student to jazz who doesn't really understand how any aspect of improvisation works. It can be very helpful to them to learn some general 'rules' that give them some grasp on the music, like it usually sounds good for chord tones to fall on the downbeat. That doesn't mean they always have to! But, it does give a beginner student a place to begin to understand and eventually develop more sophistication in their thinking as their ability to listen also grows.
And it might be a bit of observational bias too- if one was to pay attention to all times that specific rule did not happen- likely a lot of times on average solos- the conclusion could be quite different to what makes a solo be great
That's a good way of putting it… I myself started listening to and singing along with jazz recordings at 12 years old so I just internalized the language organically...and I can see how some of those bebop academia things could be helpful to someone who didn't grow up with the language…But at the same time, the problem right there is immediately self evident to begin with whenever I sit down with a guitarist in a local shop who can't even sing a single excerpt of a favorite famous jazz solo... and yet they immediately start saying ", I learned that you do this in jazz, chord tone on strong beats, etc."... 🤦♂️ i'm excited that they want to play jazz but they are already talking bebop theory and they can't even sing 4 bars of a Grant Green/Kenny Burrell/Sonny Rollins/Miles Davis solo. They are trying to skip years of listening jazz and singing along to recordings (immersion) with academic concepts from a book...You can be a totally fluent jazz musician without even laying hands on an instrument, just like Al Jarreau. People should really learn to speak it first, by ear, if possible- just my opinion :) I think that's the missing step for so many- immersion and singing along.
My father was a jazz saxophonists. I grew up scat singing to the radio with him. I does help a lot. No everyone does that and I as a I assign a lot of listening. Equally, are talking about rudimentary exercises not actual solos. Sounds must be learned first. If all it took to play brilliant solos was to listen to our favorite artists and mixup the 12 tones indiscriminately we all be geniuses. Just a thought.
@@PTam09 To your point- there's different learning styles for learning any kind of language, and that's easy for me to forget. For someone who is an academic/paper/visual learner, seeing these concepts on paper and being able to interact with them in that tactile way might help them get it into their ears faster! So I can definitely see benefits there. In fact this probably makes learning jazz more accessible to these different learning types because otherwise in the past you couldn't sit in with the house band if you couldn't pick up stuff quickly by ear, which limited the amount of people who felt comfortable getting into jazz. All of that being said, I just think it would be good if the academic jazz world would emphasize listening fundamentals first because I'm constantly playing with younger musicians who just simply don't know how to listen to their bandmates despite having large amounts of academic musical knowledge. They're trying to get the music to come out of their fingers before it's in their ears. As teachers, if we can get young musicians to switch that around, I think they will stick with it longer and get more enjoyment out of their early jazz experiences and beyond.
As usual Chase an outstanding video, I loved the comparison and I don't think people explain the application of the Benson approach well. I also enjoyed the comments players have contibuted as they also provide a huge ammount of value. In my view this puts you as one of the very teachers on TH-cam. Brilliant job. Thank you
Love this man.. you explain this ideas en differences very clear.. I have had some lessons with Peter. I dont think he means bad btw. But yeah, he is very protective about "his" method.
Thank you for this lesson, for people like me from Nigeria I didn't grow with jazz in fact it was like a mystery to until I got into it and I love it. Actually I dont know how to sing it but I respect an educational type of Guitarist like Barry Harris. George is great undisputed and I also learn alot from it but for me Barry Harris rules and method has brought Jazz to my doorstep😊. Tutor like you has also inspired me and others that I can continue alot of Jazz mystery. Please how can help me know how to sing it.
What Barry said is in thinking of the five only it includes the two the one to three five and the seven and the six of the five chord where we can play off instead of getting boxed into only the two or the Dorian mode.
if ud like u should listen and transcribe nightingale for a minor tune and ascension for a "rhythm change" from barry harris, he doesnt really play lines/runs like that, his chromatic scale and halfstep rules are just cell placeholders for creating ur own lines. I think the biggest problem with guitar is that if you want to play with passion and drive it will usually sound rough/staccato, and with that u cant really get that sound of lets say parker, you can sound strong and rough a la pat martino and still have that rough bop sound similar to sonny stitt. If one likes/wants to sound like the greats from the bebop era they should transcribe and get into pasquale grasso, he figured out how to make the guitar sound legato with perfect articulation. But if one wants to pick like benson then yeah, its kind hard to play like a piano player.
I think a comparison of Barry Harris to George Benson would be better served by taking one of Harris’ solos and comparing it to one of Bensons solos. Piano versus guitar is an obvious difference of course. Comparing a teaching tool like Barry’s chromatic scale to a phrase from a Benson solo is apples and oranges. Check out some of Barry’s playing and you’ll find that he is not stiff and pedagogical. He is just as expressive and amazing as Benson is.
@@ChaseMaddox My apologies Chase. I didn’t mean to imply that you said that Barry’s playing was stiff and pedagogical. It just seems to be a common conclusion that some people jump to after viewing some of the introductory teachings about Barry Harris on TH-cam.
I’m not an expert on Barry’s playing or approach by any means. My goal with this video is to contrast what I’ve learned from Barry’s approach with what I’ve learned from Benson’s approach 👍
I think you are distorting Barry's message. To me what he emphasizes are chord tones on strong beats and this can be achieved by "some" chromatics or scale tones. This doesn't require a half step between every scale tone (modified when there is no chromatic between) although he does mention this as the logical consequence of the full idea. He applies this idea to both ascending and descending lines. For example, the well-known bebop scale on dominants that descends from the root with a singe half-step to the flat 7, and descending from the 2nd with either no half-steps or two (between 2nd and root and root and flat 7), etc. are just some of the implementations of his idea. But emphasizing these "rules" also misses Barry's point which is that this is a way to get your lines to sound rhythmically right. After you practice these sorts of lines for a while you internalize the right feel in your phrasing and you can forget the rules. I've never found a better approach to this and have looked at Martino's approach too. What is Martino's approach to the phrasing issue as that is the hard part?
There's a lot going on here, but I feel like the heart of it is that Harris's approach isn't in reference to Benson's picking technique. Not sure there's an apples-to-apples comparison here, like I don't think a horn player would spend energy on their ability to play a scale of chords (a horn SECTION might, but that's not horn technique, that's song arranging). If you're saying guitarists should sound like guitarists I agree with you?
It’s really an exploration of two approaches that guitarists gravitate towards, Barry’s or Benson’s, and the specifics where I see them agreeing or differing.
There are 1000's of examples in Jazz history where it is not the way you describe it right here , where you have non chord tones falling on downbeats ! example : enclosure with 3 notes has one note on a downbeat , chrome approaches into chord tones - Les Paul played those a lot ... and so on and so on ! Barry Harris concept can do the way you teach but you should tell your students that this is only one way of doing / improvise ... otherwise people think they have to avoid non chord tones in generell on downbeats ... and that's the academic way of teaching people should try to stop today
I never said non-chord tones have to fall on downbeats, just that in general they do. And, I never said my way is the only way to do things. Everything on this channel is my understanding at the point in time the video was posted. Please don't misrepresent what I actually say.
What Im talking about is as follows : when somebody in a video or book talks only about bananas people might think that there are no other fruits in the world ! ... When you carefully dig what I wrote you in the first comment you should understand what I meant ... ! I had a student this week suffering from this kind of academic approach not to give the whole picture of what it is all about - avoid notes and bullshit like that is still in most peoples mind today ... and we teachers from today should tell our students that almost everything we can play depends on the CONTEXT , CONTEXT , CONTEXT- Jens Larsen is a good example of a teacher very open minded and transparent on topics like that ... @@ChaseMaddox
um bro love yr channel. looove george and bh. but i feel like u shoulda shouted out Chris Parks @thingsilearnedfrombarryharris hes a world class guitarist who is THE expert in BH and his teaching methodology. but i get your points and appreciate the contrast…chris would argue there should be no difference between what is “playable” on piano vs any other instrument. Anyhow, if GB needs to tweak some jazz pedogogy or another to get his incredible sound-thats ok by me.
@@ChaseMaddox ha! my bad brother. I had to stop watching to make dinner but I felt compelled to comment because I study with Chris at open studio and I was surprised you mentioned Barry Harris and guitar and went into your monologue without name checking him. but of course you’re right I should’ve waited till the end before posting a comment. my bad. i will jump back in and finish it.
All good. I’m not a Barry Harris expert like Chris, but there are definitely differences between what is playable/comfortable for one instrument vs another based on the nature of each instrument.
Do you prefer Barry or Benson’s approach? Let me know in the comments!
Thanks!
Thank you, Richard! 🙏
At 16:52 ‘almost sounds like a whole tone thing, but not quite’
The notes are Ab Bb D and F - a Bb7 arpeggio
Bb7 is the tritone sub of E7
Do you think Benson was thinking Bb7 over E7?
I think it’s quite possible he was 👍
Benson has found how to add spontaneous chromatic sophistication to his playing by being comfortable sliding up and down the fret board and playing more notes per string rather than having to jump across a strings. Also, because Benson almost always does rest stroke picking, even more so he always has his left hand to slide left and right for chromatics rather than reaching up or down to the next string, that way he does not have to switch to free stroke picking... Dan Wilson does this as well.
Spot on! Thanks for watching 🤘
He actually adapted that style very early in his career because when he attempted to jump strings he couldn't do it with precision and it slowed him down. He decided to try playing linear across the neck and found it much easier and cleaner so for him it became the norm.
Edit: It's hard to listen to him now and imagine he ever suffered any difficulties in his attempt to play anything lol
Really enjoyed your commentary. One thing that kind of jumps out at me is so many players sound alike to an extent… maybe it can’t be avoided because their approach maybe similar…and it’s the style of the music. Always loved Benson and his mix of jazz, blues, R&B and it sounds like he’s having fun.
Thanks Michael! 🙏
Excellent as usual, Chase. Thank you!
Thanks Adam! Appreciate that 🙏
I never delved into Barry's approach for lines, but i definitely studied his approach to harmony and how chords are related and connected. Really filled in some major gaps in seeing the whole fretboard.
Thanks for watching!
If you listen to the videos of George Benson talking about his playing that are out there… He's absolutely never thinking of having any specific notes land on any specific beat. He just sees all 12 notes of the chromatic scale as available options at any given moment and appreciates all of them and the sound and emotion that they make relative to the root or the harmony. Many people will disagree with me but I personally feel like the act of trying to intentionally place specific notes on specific beats is the most useless exercise in the entire jazz academia, at least for guitarists like your saying...most really good spontaneous players just end up doing that in certain instances because it's the sound they're hearing from listening to their favorite players and comrades, and it just sounds good sometimes to put certain notes on certain beats but in all of the examples that we love to sit and analyze, this happens naturally and spontaneously, not in a calculated way. It's all usable sounds. What beat it happens on just seems so irrelevant even if it is an observable pattern and music. How on earth does trying to play specific chord tones on specific beats make you sound any more creative or soulful? It doesn't. In fact it usually has the opposite effect… Seems to make people sound sterile and robotic. I'll never see the usefulness in that but I'm glad it helps so many people I guess... like you're saying, probably more useful for horn and piano players. But soulful improvising guitarists like Benson and Wes and beyond just never thought that way.
Agreed! I think people need to try to understand the perspective of a new student to jazz who doesn't really understand how any aspect of improvisation works. It can be very helpful to them to learn some general 'rules' that give them some grasp on the music, like it usually sounds good for chord tones to fall on the downbeat. That doesn't mean they always have to! But, it does give a beginner student a place to begin to understand and eventually develop more sophistication in their thinking as their ability to listen also grows.
And it might be a bit of observational bias too- if one was to pay attention to all times that specific rule did not happen- likely a lot of times on average solos- the conclusion could be quite different to what makes a solo be great
That's a good way of putting it…
I myself started listening to and singing along with jazz recordings at 12 years old so I just internalized the language organically...and I can see how some of those bebop academia things could be helpful to someone who didn't grow up with the language…But at the same time, the problem right there is immediately self evident to begin with whenever I sit down with a guitarist in a local shop who can't even sing a single excerpt of a favorite famous jazz solo... and yet they immediately start saying ", I learned that you do this in jazz, chord tone on strong beats, etc."... 🤦♂️ i'm excited that they want to play jazz but they are already talking bebop theory and they can't even sing 4 bars of a Grant Green/Kenny Burrell/Sonny Rollins/Miles Davis solo. They are trying to skip years of listening jazz and singing along to recordings (immersion) with academic concepts from a book...You can be a totally fluent jazz musician without even laying hands on an instrument, just like Al Jarreau. People should really learn to speak it first, by ear, if possible- just my opinion :) I think that's the missing step for so many- immersion and singing along.
My father was a jazz saxophonists. I grew up scat singing to the radio with him. I does help a lot. No everyone does that and I as a I assign a lot of listening. Equally, are talking about rudimentary exercises not actual solos. Sounds must be learned first. If all it took to play brilliant solos was to listen to our favorite artists and mixup the 12 tones indiscriminately we all be geniuses. Just a thought.
@@PTam09 To your point- there's different learning styles for learning any kind of language, and that's easy for me to forget. For someone who is an academic/paper/visual learner, seeing these concepts on paper and being able to interact with them in that tactile way might help them get it into their ears faster! So I can definitely see benefits there. In fact this probably makes learning jazz more accessible to these different learning types because otherwise in the past you couldn't sit in with the house band if you couldn't pick up stuff quickly by ear, which limited the amount of people who felt comfortable getting into jazz. All of that being said, I just think it would be good if the academic jazz world would emphasize listening fundamentals first because I'm constantly playing with younger musicians who just simply don't know how to listen to their bandmates despite having large amounts of academic musical knowledge.
They're trying to get the music to come out of their fingers before it's in their ears. As teachers, if we can get young musicians to switch that around, I think they will stick with it longer and get more enjoyment out of their early jazz experiences and beyond.
As usual Chase an outstanding video, I loved the comparison and I don't think people explain the application of the Benson approach well. I also enjoyed the comments players have contibuted as they also provide a huge ammount of value. In my view this puts you as one of the very teachers on TH-cam. Brilliant job. Thank you
Thank you, David! 🙏 Trying my best to put out new, original lessons and ideas here in the jazz guitar space! 🤘
Love This Lesson even you may be able to hear this but not really know what it is
Thanks Mel! 🤘
Love this man.. you explain this ideas en differences very clear.. I have had some lessons with Peter. I dont think he means bad btw. But yeah, he is very protective about "his" method.
Thanks for watching!
what is the background music called?
Roni Ben Hur wrote a book on applying Barry's method for guitar. Talk jazz guitar is title.
Cool! I’ll check it out 👍
Thank you for this lesson, for people like me from Nigeria I didn't grow with jazz in fact it was like a mystery to until I got into it and I love it. Actually I dont know how to sing it but I respect an educational type of Guitarist like Barry Harris. George is great undisputed and I also learn alot from it but for me Barry Harris rules and method has brought Jazz to my doorstep😊. Tutor like you has also inspired me and others that I can continue alot of Jazz mystery. Please how can help me know how to sing it.
Thanks for watching! I’m not a singer at all, so I don’t have any specific advice to give there.
What Barry said is in thinking of the five only it includes the two the one to three five and the seven and the six of the five chord where we can play off instead of getting boxed into only the two or the Dorian mode.
Thoughtful clarification 👍 Thanks for watching!
what’s the background the in the intro?
if ud like u should listen and transcribe nightingale for a minor tune and ascension for a "rhythm change" from barry harris, he doesnt really play lines/runs like that, his chromatic scale and halfstep rules are just cell placeholders for creating ur own lines. I think the biggest problem with guitar is that if you want to play with passion and drive it will usually sound rough/staccato, and with that u cant really get that sound of lets say parker, you can sound strong and rough a la pat martino and still have that rough bop sound similar to sonny stitt. If one likes/wants to sound like the greats from the bebop era they should transcribe and get into pasquale grasso, he figured out how to make the guitar sound legato with perfect articulation. But if one wants to pick like benson then yeah, its kind hard to play like a piano player.
Thanks for the comment! Pasquale is a great example of bebop, and maybe closer to Barry’s approach.
the last benson line is a Fmaj7 then Bb7/tritone sub over E7 to get to Am
That’s a good way to think about it 👍
@@ChaseMaddox yeah it’s literally a Bb7 what he plays.. he does that very often, cheers
Great video!
Glad you enjoyed it! 🤘
I think a comparison of Barry Harris to George Benson would be better served by taking one of Harris’ solos and comparing it to one of Bensons solos. Piano versus guitar is an obvious difference of course. Comparing a teaching tool like Barry’s chromatic scale to a phrase from a Benson solo is apples and oranges. Check out some of Barry’s playing and you’ll find that he is not stiff and pedagogical. He is just as expressive and amazing as Benson is.
Where did I say Barry was stiff and pedagogical? It’s not apples to oranges, the comparison is how they approach an ascending line.
@@ChaseMaddox My apologies Chase. I didn’t mean to imply that you said that Barry’s playing was stiff and pedagogical. It just seems to be a common conclusion that some people jump to after viewing some of the introductory teachings about Barry Harris on TH-cam.
I’m not an expert on Barry’s playing or approach by any means. My goal with this video is to contrast what I’ve learned from Barry’s approach with what I’ve learned from Benson’s approach 👍
Consider a more "Guitar Friendly" fingering for C7 (Mixolydian) - ⑤ C C# D - ④ [Eb_slide 1st finger_E] G F F# G - ③ [Ab_slide 1st finger_A] C Bb B C
I wouldn’t ever play that kind of idea anyways but yes that fingering might be better in some situation.
I think you are distorting Barry's message. To me what he emphasizes are chord tones on strong beats and this can be achieved by "some" chromatics or scale tones. This doesn't require a half step between every scale tone (modified when there is no chromatic between) although he does mention this as the logical consequence of the full idea. He applies this idea to both ascending and descending lines. For example, the well-known bebop scale on dominants that descends from the root with a singe half-step to the flat 7, and descending from the 2nd with either no half-steps or two (between 2nd and root and root and flat 7), etc. are just some of the implementations of his idea. But emphasizing these "rules" also misses Barry's point which is that this is a way to get your lines to sound rhythmically right. After you practice these sorts of lines for a while you internalize the right feel in your phrasing and you can forget the rules. I've never found a better approach to this and have looked at Martino's approach too. What is Martino's approach to the phrasing issue as that is the hard part?
What you said agrees with my points more than it disagrees with them
There's a lot going on here, but I feel like the heart of it is that Harris's approach isn't in reference to Benson's picking technique. Not sure there's an apples-to-apples comparison here, like I don't think a horn player would spend energy on their ability to play a scale of chords (a horn SECTION might, but that's not horn technique, that's song arranging). If you're saying guitarists should sound like guitarists I agree with you?
It’s really an exploration of two approaches that guitarists gravitate towards, Barry’s or Benson’s, and the specifics where I see them agreeing or differing.
Hey, it's the Food Wishes theme song!
There are 1000's of examples in Jazz history where it is not the way you describe it right here , where you have non chord tones falling on downbeats ! example : enclosure with 3 notes has one note on a downbeat , chrome approaches into chord tones - Les Paul played those a lot ... and so on and so on ! Barry Harris concept can do the way you teach but you should tell your students that this is only one way of doing / improvise ... otherwise people think they have to avoid non chord tones in generell on downbeats ... and that's the academic way of teaching people should try to stop today
I never said non-chord tones have to fall on downbeats, just that in general they do. And, I never said my way is the only way to do things. Everything on this channel is my understanding at the point in time the video was posted. Please don't misrepresent what I actually say.
What Im talking about is as follows : when somebody in a video or book talks only about bananas people might think that there are no other fruits in the world ! ... When you carefully dig what I wrote you in the first comment you should understand what I meant ... ! I had a student this week suffering from this kind of academic approach not to give the whole picture of what it is all about - avoid notes and bullshit like that is still in most peoples mind today ... and we teachers from today should tell our students that almost everything we can play depends on the CONTEXT , CONTEXT , CONTEXT- Jens Larsen is a good example of a teacher very open minded and transparent on topics like that ... @@ChaseMaddox
Interesting how you mention context when you totally missed the context of my point and this video 🤔
@@ChaseMaddoxThey seek European approaches to Black music's due to obvious heard facts fron them. They often lack what is essential to Black musics.
context means specific musical context as blues context , altered , superimposing and 🧠 so on ...
I thought the fourth was a no no lol
I think you misanderstood a little bit barry's concepts.
How?
Doesn’t apply to guitar? Pasquale Grasso, dawg
The exception that proves the rule 😉
um
bro love yr channel. looove george and bh. but i feel like u shoulda shouted out Chris Parks @thingsilearnedfrombarryharris
hes a world class guitarist who is THE expert in BH and his teaching methodology.
but i get your points and appreciate the contrast…chris would argue there should be no difference between what is “playable” on piano vs any other instrument.
Anyhow, if GB needs to tweak some jazz pedogogy or another to get his incredible sound-thats ok by me.
Lol he’s in the video? Maybe watch it before criticizing 😉
@@ChaseMaddox ha! my bad brother. I had to stop watching to make dinner but I felt compelled to comment because I study with Chris at open studio and I was surprised you mentioned Barry Harris and guitar and went into your monologue without name checking him. but of course you’re right I should’ve waited till the end before posting a comment. my bad. i will jump back in and finish it.
All good. I’m not a Barry Harris expert like Chris, but there are definitely differences between what is playable/comfortable for one instrument vs another based on the nature of each instrument.
@@ChaseMaddox i agree. maestro chris does not. lol
Lol maybe I’ll do a video explaining my position
Great video!!
Thank you, Jose! 🤘🙏