Why the Brotherhood of Steel is Problematic
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 ก.ค. 2024
- The series' darling, the Brotherhood of Steel has the tech, training and discipline to take on any challenge, but this fan favorite has some big problems. What are these issues and how bad could they possibly be?
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Timestamps:
Paradoxical purpose: 1:19
Dogma's downfall: 10:15
Inability to govern: 17:33
A flawed foundation: 25:55
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Cancel culture has come for the brotherhood of steel
You mean the Railroad has come for the Brotherhood.
@@nagihangot6133 What's the difference?
Literally, this was the dumbest video ever, like this post apocalyptic faction cares more about themself over other so this faction is bad
@@zackshafto3040It's easy to judge from the safety of the real world. So that's what many do. Never considering what would be different if they were actually *living* in that world.
Lmao
The only mechanized faction I trust in Fallout 4 are the Atom Cats.
based
I wish you could have a atom cats ending in fallout 4
@@MatthewFavorite1927 or have them join the minutemen, and be a railroad safehouse.
Are they really mechanized if they lack any vehicles? I prefer the NCR's tanks.
I trust the Gunners
I’m not a big fan of retcons but I really like the evolution of the Brotherhood in terms of politics. They went from a group of survivors to a secret knightly order to a technological power player to a theocratic dictatorship with strong personality cult.
Agreed
Admittedly I don’t really see the theocratic aspect. They definitely do have a cult of personality with Rodger Maxon but it doesn’t seem all that religious to me more like the veneration some US citizens have for George Washington. They do have a dogmatic following of the rules but that seems somewhat standard for an organization so heavily based on military practices. They don’t seem like the cult mechanicus but maybe they’re on their way there.
Edit: got Arthur Maxon mixed up with Rodger Maxon
Is it even a retcon?
@@meinebosma Eh, not quite, but the Brotherhood is probably the most retconned faction in all of Fallout to the point you can't even give them a consistent ideology.
@@dylansmall9699 Yeah, they don't see Maxson as a living God or something like that, but their reasoning for what they do in F4 is clearly from a theological perspective. "It is so because it was always so because God did it so"
I don't necessarily think it's wrong for the Brotherhood to be portrayed as hypocritical. Many religious orders and fanatical groups will often become so dogmatic that their initial mission or ideology is buried under tradition.
In fact, I think that can make them more interesting, as we've seen the Brotherhood constantly struggle with the idea of doing what's right versus what's dogmatic, such as in the FO76 storyline. It's possible there might be a schism that occurs in one chapter and ripples outwards to the rest of the Brotherhood.
The mission and ideals of the Brotherhood is noble, but it can often become patronizing or isolating. I think writers should really juggle with this rather rather just saying "they're hypocrites so they're bad".
I would love to see a "Lyons reformation" started by a subset who want a change back to Lyons more people focused strategy and break off
Based comment
The Brotherhood are the only real shades of grey faction in Fallout 4 at all, I think there are significant oversights with the writing but it's still questionable whether they are really hypocritical beyond the very light toleration of peaceful Ghouls/Mutants compared to Synths. But Minutemen are the Yes Man faction so they don't have any ideals that conflict with yours, they just believe in defending people, and have a rich history of ... defending people and losing sometimes. Insitute are just evil scientists, Railroad are one note Followers of the Apocalypse, sure they have no regard for the consequences of their actions but their code doesn't go beyond Synth rights.
I think the Brotherhood should just be less helpful, make the main quest not revolve around dangerous technology or some major threat. Let the player make up their own mind about the Brotherhood, not just "oh they helped me", or "these feudal knights kinda remind me of Fascism, Fascism bad." But not in a New Vegas way where they are just irrelevant jerks.
Yeah, like even Christianity, the largest cult in the pre war world contradicts itself going from Jesus being radically socialist saying you should help anyone in need regardless of your nations hate for them, that money has no place in the church and the world is a church and a lot more stuff. To now being the biggest proponent of modern capitalist fascism and the prodistant work ethic or whatever that means being rich is now viewed as good by god.
I'm not sure that's really hypocritical at all. Stating that technology should be controlled by a central power and then saying that YOU should be that power is not contradictory. (though it is authoritarian) They aren't really stopping people from helping themselves, since they don't collect hand-held weapons, or auto-docs, or computers, or robots. Just... power armor and Big Guns and nukes and synths. Stuff where the benefit to humanity is dubious beyond war.
The problem is when they come up against large organizations like the NCR and decide to take their stuff by force. Or the Railroad and Minutemen, for a more sympathetic group.
(Plus there's the East and West Brotherhoods, and one is much worse than the other. The West doesn't even pretend to have people's best interests at heart.)
This is why it kills me that the Midwestern Brotherhood was de-canonized. They were by far the most innovative and adaptable of the chapters we've seen. A simple rewrite would easily clear up the conflicts with the current canon. For example, move the events of Tactics to after the events of Fallout 2. This would make it so that the Brotherhood's encounter with the Enclave and the realization that they are no longer the technological big dogs in the Wasteland was the catalyst for the schism that saw the formation of the Midwest Chapter. Next, seeing as ED-E's recordings confirm the presence of Enclave in Chicago, make them the main antagonists instead of the Calculator because, let's face it, if a robot army like that had existed in prewar America, its remnants would be everywhere, not just in the Midwest. You could even make it so that the reason the Brotherhood crashed wasn't because they flew into a storm, which makes them seem pretty negligent, but were shot down by the Enclave. And the reason their power armor starts to look like a hybrid of Brotherhood and Enclave armor is because it is. They would start using components taken from the armor of dead Enclave soldiers to repair and upgrade their own armor.
I thought fallout 4 mentioned the midwestern bos airship
In a hypothetical rewrite big robot army could stay and be present by having large stockpiles locked away in hidden/hard to access locations (like in New Vegs). Player could learned about it through hacking a terminal or finding documents. Behemoths could still be potentially added though being stored away in limited numbers for field testing that never came. That aircraft drone by all means should stay. Gaining access to it and restoring it to working order along with activating robots could definitely be part of reworked main quest and point at which player decides which organizations gets them (BOS, Enclave or third party) tipping the scale.
Alternatively, rather then large robot stockpiles player acquires production blueprints of various robots, and then proceeds with either organization player decided to side with to capture old factories in industrial town, restoring them and starting production of robots. Acquisition of aircraft drone in this scenerio is also tool that tips the scale.
@@Gritz0003 The Midwest BOS and the events of Tactics are kind of in a canon limbo.
The general events and factions took place, but the specifics (like even when it would take place either before Fallout 2 like it originally did or maybe after) are officially up in the air until stated otherwise later on.
@@grand_max66 wernt they considered "beta canon" or whatever?
They're canon idc what Bethesda says I consider Bethesda games non canon
_"With self planned righteous causes come self centered mindsets."_ - Brotherhood Steel in nutshell
blasphemy !
Enclave propaganda nothing more.
@@brotbrotsen1100 True.
Betting you're one of those railroad freaks. Guess it's time to cleanse another hideout
It's sad really, the only time they had agency or legitimacy to do what they do and more was in fallout 3
@ 19:50 , factual error:
Paladin Danse says that "the east coast chapter of the brotherhood of steel went through one ineffectual leader after the other," following Sarah Lyons death. Arthur was simply the latest one at the time of Fallout 4. It's not specific how many other elders were in between Sarah Lyons and Arthur Maxim
I thought he was talking about Elder Lyons? That he departed from the core values of the Brotherhood.
Theres a terminal in the Citadel in fallout 3 that tells you the names of all the chapters previous Elders.
@@majestikmastrb8r689 true. But the timeframe originally talking about happens after FO3, and any DLC (that I'm aware of). That terminal lists the Elders *before* Lyons, not after.
There couldn't be many Elders, isn't it only a 10 year difference between Fo3 and 4?
@@Lucas-yu4buI think his daughter became Elder after him....then she died too
This is the irony of the BOS, they started out as survivors of the military army, but over time and new generations later, they forget their origins and it's various members are split on their ideology.
I dint think it's the irony, but the point. To show the difference between them and the enclave. They were meant to be the Enclaves foil. Nice but naive, where as the enclave were evil and educated (in the sense of their ideology, not in the world). The biggest problem I have with the Brotherhood in 4, is the insistence on domination over the entirety of the land over an occupation, combing, then leaving. It seems to be replacing the enclave and losing its own ideology. Whereas the Enclave in even mods for 4 seem to switch and be the more "reasonable" of the 2 and especially out of all around.
The brotherhood is the embodyment of the mentality of "Rules for thee, not for me"
Like democraps and rhinos?
@@vexile1239udging by your choice of pejoratives, I suspect you consider yourself "conservative" or "libertarian".
Jesus was a big fan of inclusivity (Hebrews 13:1-3; 1 Peter 4:9; Matthew 25:35; Exodus 12:49; Matthew 25:40; Leviticus 19:33-34). We are all brothers under Christ; try to get along with your fellow human beings, even if they want you to call them by weird pronouns or have dumb ideas about guns, hmm? Maybe you can teach them a thing or two.
@@alaeriia01 neither I am human, political alignment is a concept that was created to divide humanity to make it easier to control them by those who harbour ill will towards others, just like those like democrats who demands and receive special treatment, just look at the criminal biden and clinton, those two families have broken so many laws that anything they accuse others of is what they have done
@@alaeriia01 and doesn't the bible also say that man should not lay with another man like he would a woman?
@@vexile1239 If you read the original Hebrew, you will see that that is a mistranslation. It should read, "A man shall not lay with a BOY as he would with a woman". It was banning pedophilia, not homosexuality.
I dont think Maxson saying "playing god" is an indicator of anything since you dont need to be religious to use it, or understand it. Gods in every culture create things and usually responsible for life. Maxson was using that term to describe how the Institute behaves and how he sees them as arrogant scientists who think they can play with nature.
Yeah that point was a bit of a stretch
First time watching this guy, he reeks of reddit. "Mention of God is bad, it's current year," like i feel gross watching this.
I agree, “playing God” is a common idiom. It’s a phrase that many commonly understand and use whether the speaker or listener believes in God or not.
@@DetectiveThursday yet it originates solely from religion.
@@goof_tv7829other idioms derived from Christianity: skin of your teeth, bite the dust, can a leopard change its spots and many common others. Not everything connected to Christian origins is bad
I wish Lyon’s group was a more permanent one that actually decided to split off from the main brotherhood faction. Creating their own version of it, it could add a more humanitarian, but flawed faction to the wasteland.
Maybe it can be done in the future where we learn Lyon had some followers who kept his ideas to heart.
They tried that in FO3, but the Purists complained too much.
@@ShadowSonic2 I know but I’m just saying they could still have a faction who split and stuck with Lyons ideals. Would make for an interesting faction with antagonistic relations between them and the brotherhood
There is still some of that, they are clearly still fighting off mutants and institute in the Commonwealth. They are still helping, and they are very affective.
@@joecrazy9896 They’ve fought super mutants forever. What I’m saying is a split off away from the zealous technology hording we see in the east and again in 4 when they left Lyons way of doing it. I feel there’s room for his ideas to have caused some to split off from the main group. The actual outcasts now lol
@@s7robin105 Ah yes the Legion of Steel. Lyons old guard who sticked to their guns after Maxons take over of the east coast chapter
i really wish there had been an outcast faction in fallout 4....'Lyon's Pride' or 'Lyon's Knights' or something that we could choose to support and help claim leadership instead of Maxsons 'the Enclave with better PR' faction.
Calling the Fallout 4 Brotherhood the "enclave with better PR" is completely disingenuous. The Brotherhood don't see the wastelanders as inferior and want to wipe them out, they actively recruit from them. The Brotherhood are also the only faction actually actively fighting against the dangers of the wastes like super mutants and raiders. None of the other factions do that other than just having the player do it.
Nor did the Enclave in Fallout 3. Colonel autumn wanted to unite the DC settlements and build a country.
So yes, they are pretty much just the Enclave with better PR in 4.
@@GeraltofRivia22
Oh really?
Intelligent and civilized Ghouls are wastelanders too, aren't they?
Whats Arthur Maxsons BoS view of them?
@@thepax2621 or the few friendly super mutants we see, like strong or that village in new vegas.
Their logic would be like meeting a bunch of raiders and deciding its okay to wipe out diamond city for being human XD
@@theadtheogrekiller5629 Ah Jacobstown and Lily... or Fawkes for that matter 🤷🏻♀️.
Its illogical anyway, why insist on killing the few friendly Super Mutants?
They can't reproduce, thats the whole downfall of the Master in Fallout 1. So they'll die out anyway, one day.
Destroying the source of FEV makes more sense, wether its the Mariposa base or the Institute.
Once you do that, the rest should take care of itself
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I think they should become more Monastic Knight like, ie: Templars. Some of their rigidity works, it gives them character. But I think a better way to do it with minimal tweaks is this: Their capital and main bases are fortified labs that have towns of non knight citizens around them. They fight to protect the citizens, and the citizens farm and produce goods for the Brotherhood. People can join, but have to accomplish a quest first. Ghouls and super mutants can live in their regions, but have to fight in auxiliary units to prove loyalty. They still raid for tech, but use it to help their citizens also (better meds, generators, purifiers, etc). The brotherhood is good, but it does need to account for growing population and think this is a good way. Make them the nobility to a post apocalyptic society.
That's an interesting and oddly fitting concept. I like it.
*Babe awakening* YAS-T!!!
That sounds like 40k :D They hunt for tech (stc), they are big knights but only few are accepted (astartes), they have tech labs(mechanicus), Supermutants and ghouls can live but have to serve (penal legions and ogryns), they hate/kill ferals and unwilling mutants (xenos)
I like it reminds me of the Midwest Brotherhood
Commonwealth Minutemen but with more tech.
I believe that Sarah Lyons is still alive. The only reference to her death was a single line in a terminal in the Prydwen.
I belive that she was asssinated and Maxson covered it up, think about it NONE of the major characters that were in the BOS in f3 besides maxson are in the F4 BOS and the ones that are are loyal to maxson no matter what.
@@Pigness7 A very good possibility. But I believe Maxon exiled her instead of killing her, because he looked up to her as a big sister if the dialogue in Fallout 3 is any indication.
@@Pigness7 or bethesda killed her off with no thought because they wanted maxon to become the high elder. theres no implications about her death at all. any speculations are head canon.
@@anathame3649 At the risk of reading too much into it, I felt they killed them off as a statement because of how much criticism they got for the BoS being "out of character" in Fallout 3.
It was Bethesda saying "you don't like Lyons? Fine, they're gone and now they have a new Elder, and he's very angry about stuff, did you hear his speech about abominations? happy now?"
@@MediumRareOpinions Bethesda definitely felt bad about the criticism they received from the fanbase, and in Fallout 4 they did a lot to fix a lot of that like all settlements having crops and generators along with a clean water source. those are good things, but I think Bethesda should do their own thing when it comes to making their games, Fallout 3's Point Lookout was the best DLC in the series and I think it should serve as the schematics for how they should make future games. keeping most of the fallout 3 mechanics the same, improving dialogue options and player choice consequences, and combining science fiction with cosmic horror. also the D.C. Brotherhood was a unique chapter, technically excommunicated. so it's perfectly fine for them to change the nature of the group. I feel like Fallout 4 doing a 180 with the BoS kind of wasted a lot of work into the FO3 BoS
Can you speculate if the Midwestern brotherhood of steel is active? In New Vegas Ceasar mentions they captured brotherhood scribes further east that didn't know the name of the founder of BOS. Can this be the Midwestern BOS?
Yes its a refrence to Fallout: Tactics
I bet they became rouge like the mfp in mad max 2
No, that is a different chapter to the Midwest.
@@MrMadre so Texan chapter?
@@GhemourMoncef "rogue" chapter should be taken with a grain of salt cuz BoS will absolutely demonise all "traitors" and non conformists
I was just thinking of the Brotherhood today, mainly wondering why they didn't do Operation Paperclip 2: Electric Boogaloo with the Institute instead of nuking it
Likely because Bethesda only made two endings for 4, and the Institute needs to be a crater in three of those two endings. If anything, the Outcasts should have reformed and thrown Maxson to the mirelurks the moment he wanted to level a literal goldmine of tech.
Because the brotherhood has always feared innovation, or any tech more advanced than what they had at Lost Hills. They exiled Elijah because he wanted to improve and advance technology. They feared the enclave in Fallout 2 not because of their violence towards wastelanders, but because they could manufacture Vertibirds and Advanced Power Armor.
@@Sgt_Robo they never exiled elijah though?
That old bastard made them fight a battle they couldnt win at helios and then fucked off when he realized things wouldnt be going like he had hoped.
@Idk yeah but the brotherhood could have still taken some of that tech instead of just fucking nuking everything
@@Sgt_Robo They didn't fear innovation, they feared super weapons. Elijah didn't just "want to advance technology" he wanted to use some of the most advanced tech on the planet to create Brotherhood weapons of war. The Brotherhood are constantly creating new tech to assist with things like food development, armor innovations, or weapon upgrades, they're not against the evolution of technology, they're against it being used to make WMDs. That's why the Brotherhood doesn't trust the average wastlander with any technology, they can't be trusted to not make a super weapon out of it.
Okay yeah they’re flawed but look at this - *insert cool power armor and liberty prime *
In fallout New Vegas, Veronica mentions that the brotherhood members would sometimes get into fights/ arguments that resulted in some of brotherhood members getting killed by other members of the same chapter of the Brotherhood, and it's said to have happened many times before in Veronica's chapter of the brotherhood. Ironic that a faction that prides itself for its military quality training and personal, lack physical and mental restraint in some individuals.
Find me a professional military organization that has 0 instances of infighting resulting in the deaths of one or more of their soldiers lol; that’s not unique to the brotherhood.
To be fair, that's the Western Chapter. And they are just the Western Chapter
That contradiction is inherent to people of that particular mindset.
@@twinzzlers No it's not you also have the Outcasts that split off from Lyon's group
@@James-ne3lc That's why they were the outcasts
I'll give Lyons this, he's the first leader of the bos to relise there causing more harm then good
Even in Fallout 1 the BoS started going down that route (canon ending).
Hence why everyone else in the Brotherhood hated him.
@robertothesupermutant830I'm hoping the canon ending is that he died.
@FEVRoberthow is he crazy? He's completely right
Playing as the brotherhood of Steel really made me appreciate the minutemen, the latter are a grassroots movement where the people are openly invited to join, with the main purpose of defending them and sharing their wins with humankind. Not hoarding tech and thinking they're above everyone.
Plus they are able to build communities and trade for each other and provide protection I still don't like fo4's factions but minute men are the best option
It kinda sucks that the minutemen clearly got the least writing budget of all the factions since like a colonial vibe good natured “rebuild society” is super fun and likeable
Conceptually they are the most interesting faction in Fallout 4. Pity they barely get any quest content.
The Minutemen’s ideology can be summed up entirely as “murder is wrong” and that’s why they’re the GOAT
This is a why it’s a shame we as a character are forced to rebuild them that’s kinda lame especially for it to focus on all of that instead of anything fun
The Brotherhood are like the Astartes of 40k. They protect "humanity" more like a concept than actually caring about human beings.
Underrated take right here bro.
And much like the Astartes chapters, they self organise into distinct sub groups with different interpretations of their mission goal.
Salamanders 👍
Marines Malevolent ☠
Unless you’re the Salamander’s.
@@seanflanagan3940 it's not underrated, brotherhood of steel fans just lack the intelligence to understand any of it so they arent capable of agreeing
That's because it's bad take. Making sure raiders who are everywhere don't get things like power armor, suits that are basically freaking Gundams don't fall in their hands is a hard enough job. We already seen a chapter try to protect a area in D.C and it was a struggle just to maintain the status quo. Then after they pacify the area a bunch panzies on the internet call them fascist, you all are ridiculous
If only Sarah Lyons had survived, I think she could have fully realized the vision her father had, I really hope that her death is retconned at some point, say like how the fallout 4 quest mod Project Valkryie does, where she faked her death and left to premt a coup against her as the rank and file become more and more radicalized, turning into what they became in fallout 4.
The point you made about the BoS opposing the NCR because they were a threat to the BoS's dominance over the region provides a better explanation for why the Arthur Maxson east coast chapter opposes the Institute. Selling it as a kind of holy war instead of a consolidation of power ensures that the rank and file will be more invested in the pursuit.
@@lelanternoscope3691 Interesting, very interesting.
the legion show up and go "give us everything you have and there's a chance we won't kill you." but at least they don't prance around expecting you to be greatful
Wasn't there a rumor they destroyed Steelcity, for the reactor, to power their blimp.
@@angelphoenix7784 They said they took the Prydwen's reactor from "an Aircraft Carrier", but Carriers have multiple reactors. So taking one wouldn't destroy the city.
@@ShadowSonic2 isnt it implied or something the city is destroyed may be wrong been while since I played 4
@@ShadowSonic2 Sorry, I forgot the name, Rivet City, is where the reactor came from.
@@josephgrahm4713 We honestly don't know, though it doesn't sound like something the Brotherhood would do unless they deemed it as absolutely necessary, like life or death. Rivet City probably got messed up but they wouldn't displace and kill hundreds of people when they definitely would've had other options
I know this is a not a popular idea, but I personally liked Lyons Brotherhood of Steel the most. It showcased a good evolution of perspective for the brotherhood, after all, what is the point of hording technology, at the cost of humanities resurgence. The Brotherhood of Steel would make a good faction to lead humanity into a new golden age.
Agreed, especially because it was the resources gathered by Lyons brotherhood that allowed Maxon to even build something as advanced as their airship
@@asentrybustingmedic6288 Yea, thats something that seriously goes under looked, Thanks to Lyons allowing the Lone Wanderer to join the ranks, they were able to comepletly set back the Enclave years, if not centuries in power and tech.
@Roberto The Super Mutant outcast is old brotherhood that split off from lyons because they didn't like how he was running things.
I have to disagree here, while the Lyons Brotherhood was good for humans, they were still, extremly racist against mutants, as mentioned in fallout 3, they shoot ghouls on sight, something the brotherhood in fallout 4 does not even do, since something like that is not mentioned there at all, and goodneighbour there is out in the open and the brotherhood leaves them be, while in fallout 3, the ghouls had to hide in necropolis, and they do not hide from the super mutants at all. The best brotherhood chapter, in my opinion, would be the Midwest Brotherhood, as they are also harsh, but support villages and cities, in exchange for new recruits, but above of all, they welcome sentient deathclaws, supermutants and ghouls into their ranks, creating a true cooperation amongst all the human, and mutant races, there is hope that some of it is still canon, as it is mentioned in fallout 3 and 4, that the expedition to the midwest did happen, and contact was lost.
I agree with this that fallout 3 brotherhood is a good evolution of the faction. Despite still having their issues, they realize the current status quo won’t get them or the wasteland anywhere.
Even old fallout games and new Vegas knew this. The good endings for the botherhood made them more open, and make sure technology is in the right hands as opposed to hoarding it.
It's kind of funny how Caesar of all people calls the BOS a dead end, when his own Legion is equally doomed to inevitably tear itself apart from the inside, and that's if they're successful at the second battle of Hoover Dam!
Yeah, yeah, imitate old world, repeat old mistakes, we hear it already Ulysses
"It takes one to know one"
Both are dead ends, at least in the way they are now, ironic how they are opposite of each other and yet doomed to fall all the same
@@TsukihiKaguya Indeed. Both factions are completely unsustainable in the long term. The Brotherhood seems to be more of an opposite to the Legion than the NCR in a number of ways.
The Legion only really succeeds if you save Caesar, once the Legion inevitably wins the battle of Hoover Dam(even without your help) they take over Vegas and make it their new capital. Caesar would slowly groom the Courier to be the next in line Caesar because that's what we actually see in game him being so open to us and even making a gold mint coin with our likeness. And so give it time and they would make reforms in Vegas while NCR is scrambling to get anything done back home. In time the Legion would cut off supply lines leading down to Mexico and eventually merging both the Legion and NCR societies into one. The workforce being the NCR and the military force being the Legion. A new hybrid empire that embodies only the good aspects of both societies while discarding the bad ones.
This is Caesars vision essentially it is his "synthesis" that he talks about but it's all very vague for us to get the full picture in one glance. I believe this would lead to a great chapter in humanity's path in the Wasteland.
I still believe Mr.House ending to be the best however if only because it offers so much more with less chance of failure to occur.
The Legion would tear itself apart from violence while the BOS would isolate themselves into none existence.
I found you about a year ago when I was in my deepest woes of depression. Your videos helped distract me and relax myself until I could sleep. Thank you man, your videos are amazing and you’ll always have my support.
Here with you brother, remember when he had 7k subs. Deserves another 100k!
100% agree with this and same for me big time. Respect 🙏
💯💯💯
I am humbled to hear this, I hope you are doing well. Stay strong friend 🙂
Love how at the start you can see the exact moment in game where he went “forget this” and gunned down that one synth.
I like the idea that different chapters of the Brotherhood of Steel have different ideas about exactly what they should be doing.
For some reason I just love listening to Caesar talk, his monologues are always amazing
Yeah hes a great character
Fallout New Vegas has always had the most interesting portrayal of the Brotherhood for me, because of how many outside opinions we see. Whether or not you like Caesar or House, they make salient points that the Brotherhood are hoarders who are a danger to those around them. From a purely practical perspective, you can absolutely understand why House isn't too fond of fanatics in power armor that have a large quantity of pre-War weaponry. The NCR also doesn't like them too much, on account of the NCR-Brotherhood War... which the Brotherhood started, on account of their certainty that only _they_ have the right to technology, attempting to quash one of the only states that maintains something close to Pre-War living. Additionally, in some endings, the BoS have been described by Tvtropes as "Basically raiders with power armor."
Fallout New Vegas says that not only is it a slippery slope for the Brotherhood to become religious fascists, they're already close to the bottom of said slope.
Religious fascists is a weird term since there has never been a GENUINELY religious fascist regime, all the fake Catholic regimes like those in Italy and Croatia resembled something more akin to "pagan Caesarism" in the words of Portugal's Salazar. I think its telling just how athiest our world has become today when the go-to word when describing unreasonably barbaric and fanatic apes is "religious".
I think their organization should've changed once the danger of losing technology was no longer as great. I think they also made the mistake of focusing on military technology while ignoring agricultural tech and stuff that can actually rebuild the world. Its better to build a house than build a laser rifle.
I feel bad for Veronica, since they are her family after all, but I agreed with Mr. House how dangerous and ridiculous they are: they are dead end. They won't help to rebuilt post-war America, they are okay to let rest of the world rot, just like that.
The west coast brotherhood perhaps but thje east coast isn't like that, especially not under the Lyons. I find the Lyons brotherhod a lot more intrestign thean the dogmatics on the westcoast.
I also like that they’re not portrayed as super badass. They’re actually sort of looked down upon, especially by people like Caesar and Mr. House (Especially Mr. House). Like Mr. House basically says “No, they’re not unbeatable knightly warriors, they’re a bunch of neurotic weirdos playing army in their bunkers.”
A magnificent video as usual, and thank you so much for the shoutout! I'm deeply honoured to be featured. :)
Pleasures all mine!
I feel like the Brotherhood are slowly becoming The Enclave.
What? Did Elder Maxson steal your sweetroll?
Something I find funny about the Appalachian brotherhood is that despite their supposedly altruistic goals, they are a separatist group from the US army. So despite it being not too long after the nuclear war, people are flocking to a faction which stands in direct opposition to the pre-war military and government.
The government that eroded civil rights? That violently suppressed labor strikes? That spied on, abducted, and murdered dissenters? That interned Chinese-Americans? That colluded with megacorporations? That was _controlled by the Enclave?_
I ask you: why should such a government be owed even the barest allegiance?
The real problem with the Brotherhood and Enclave is that if they weren't the way they are. But acted like rational organizations. They would be able to restore, and thus end Fallout. Also, they are the remnants of the Old World. They tell us something about why the nuclear war happened in the first place. As they are echos of the pre-war civilization.
The Brotherhood should have established cities and towns and formed a country of their own by now.
They could educate the wastelanders, help them with agriculture and accept them as auxiliary forces to deal with raiders or wildlife.
This would give them legitimacy and effectively become a nation in a few decades.
However, they are too dogmatic and stubborn for their own good. So wastelanders do it for them, with mixed results.
Wasn't that the point, that they are fundamentally flawed faction, one of many extreme responses to the trauma of the world almost completely destroyed by a nuclear annihilation.
As a massive fan of the brotherhood this was a well made video, the diverse nature of the brotherhood chapters means that certain chapters will have different views from each other, ultimately I’m certain that different chapters have better chances of evolving and reforming than others.
"In the case of the raider gang: the vipers" 6:29
_shows an image of the fiends_
understandable how that mistake was made. you dont really run into vipers much past the early game
When President Dave left Raven Rock, he looked to Eden and said "You're the man of the house now."
FO4 kind of paints a picture of an overzealous, foolhardy Brotherhood. In my opinion, the times where the Brotherhood truly shine are in FO3 where they take this sort of proxy stance as the Capital's protectors, at least within the immediate ruins (regardless of what the Outcasts might say) as well as in Tactics. Whether you consider Fallout: Tactics as canon in your zeitgeist or otherwise, we can't forget that at least at one point, they were portrayed as rational enough to be able to adapt to overcome barriers E.g: by accepting Ghouls, Tribals, Super Mutants, and even Intelligent Death Claws as recruits. Just my two... Anyway, Lyons for Life!
To be fair, Elder Lyons only started to give a damn after he got PTSD from traversing the Pitt. After that nightmare he had support from 75% of the BOS East to switch priorities with the remaining 25% becoming Outcasts. This support erodes following the Broken steel DLC where the brotherhood took on the responsibility of distributing free water to all settlements in addition to eradicating super mutants, the enclave and protecting people from raiders.
Lyons was also an old guy, after Sarah gets killed (hopefully in action and not by her own ppl) the fractured BOS went back to their original mission under Maxon in Fallout 4 unifying the outcasts in the process.
Point is the BOS really are at there core a bunch of raiders larping as pseudo knights.
Well, it happens a lot in real world history. Schisms do tend to cause the followers to turn away even more eagerly from the common ideas, and it gives a rise to extremism.
Looking at the behavior of any and all brotherhood fans proves what they are.
Always nice to see a RadKing upload.
I've been really enjoying your uploads. I appreciate the love you have for the franchise, even as someone who hasn't played much of em. You make it so enjoyable and pleasant to watch, keep it up ^_^ hope y'all are doing well
The vertibird without the doors are entered/ piloted the same way its troops board it; so from the back with no separation for a pilot's cabinet.
Feels like average Twitter discourse. "This group is bad, therefore we need to change it." BoS weren't meant to be the good guys. As you pointed out, they had obvious flaws since the first games. Let them be what they are. Turning them into sanitized, do-gooders isn't the answer. If BethSoft really wanted to have a "nice power armor faction" they could have the BoS destroyed and make a new faction. But that takes too much creativity, something sorely lacking these days.
And to reiterate someone else's point, the "1,000 years of darkness" thing doesn't seems like allusion to the "Not-C" idealogy. It's much more a religious term, 1,000 years was used to just symbolize "a really long time" or "as long as you can imagine". That's probably why it was used by that 20th century group.
And a final thing, being hierarchical and having authority over others isn't inherently wrong, literally every government ever does that. Treating hierarchy as a moral wrong is just stupid. Feels like teenage daydreaming stuff.
Seems overly aggressive in response, but you do you.
As to your last paragraph. I think from our current understanding of how to run society, governments are necessary in at least some form or fashion. However, allowing fallible, flawed humans to have executive authority over other flawed, fallible humans really is a disaster. Crack open any history book at any point in history and you can find corrupt governments committing some new genocide (usually multiple within century spans.) If not government, look at the rate of sexual and physical abuse from authority figures to kids, or the near endless exploitation under capitalism. Sure, good, true leaders exist, but they are rare.
So I would argue that you are right that hierarchies are not morally wrong (by american moral standards) by default, but ethically I'm not sure they fit the bill unless strict conditions are met.
I definitely don't think it's "teenage daydream" stuff.
@@hollyjolli To your flawed humans governing flawed humans point, I totally agree. To add another layer to it, I hate the term "you do you", it only works when there's a strong moral framework. Otherwise you just get rampant moral degradation and societal collapse.
@@kenu995very presumptuous to think this guy just wants a nice good faction instead of him just pointing out basic flaws in this group and their ideology which often just comes down to bad writing. Moral degeneracy is also a reactionaries favourite tool that means nothing gay people kissing or people marrying more then one person or trans people being aloud to exist isn’t what will make societies crumble.
@@predaderpgaming1042 I guess the tone I got from the video was the not so uncommon "because this media/company is ok with portraying this thing, it must be endorsing this thing" that seems to happen time and again on social media.
Had to look up reactionary. I didn't say any of that, but if holding the society I live in to a higher standard is reactionary, I'm a nuclear power plant.
@@predaderpgaming1042just wanna say that was an incredibly based comment. Thanks, as a trans person.
Bethesda tries not to add the BoS to every Fallout game (Impossible)
Interplay was already failing that challenge decades ago.
@Roberto The Super Mutant Ok I should've phrased this better, I meant something like "Bethesda tries not to make the BoS the main faction in every game"
Love them around, so I get to destroy the Buckheads all over again.
@@dragonbornexpress5650 Maybe with Tactics and Brotherhood, but in Fallout 2 there were literally only 3 Brotherhood members in the entire game.
There are so many factions of the BoS. The Midwest brotherhood is substantially different from the east coast BoS. The Midwest and east coast are also considered outcast from the primary west coast faction. Midwest integrates super mutants, ghouls, ai and beasts into their ranks, all working for the stability of the region.
And the primary West Coast chapter is extinct, unless you went way out of your way with the NCR or told Yes Man you didn't want to kill them. Even then, without McNamara changing his policies dramatically, they'll die out within a generation.
I’m just in it for the spiffy uniforms.
I listen to these while I work, it's a place called the homestead harvest restaurant in Cumberland mountain state park, TN, if you find yourself down this way, feel free to stop you and whomever you bring will be on me. As always, thank you for the content.
Bethesda is hilarious. Realizing they made the BH wayyy too righteous in 3, they turned them into stand in Nazis in 4. Yet, wrote them in a way where every thing they every did was rational and objectively correct considering the context.
Yup. Amazing, isn't it?
I really don't get the hate for the fallout 4 brotherhood
Question: I have only played the newer games so i never knew that different regions had different elders. Is there a high-elder existant during the events of Fallout 4? If so, do we have any knowledge on them?
There should be one somewhere, if the NCR hasn't wiped out their high command at some point.
the minutemen ending should be cannon
It's fiction, and it's near grimdark at that. Everyone is awful. The whole point is to show how it's almost impossible not to be another monster when the world itself is monstrous.
Just because it is fiction doesn't mean we can't have these discussions. Not only that, but your take is rather cynical, and as we have seen lately, a belief Bethesda has. I still remember when Bethesda was shocked when most of the players in Fallout 76 would help each other out instead of trying to kill each other. Sure, it's just a video game, but I think it serves some kind of proof that people are more willing to work together and rebuild society than let the chaos consume them. We've seen this throughout history. It's how the first civilization was ever born.
@@rivera229Exactly. Times of crisis might bring out the worst in humanity at times, but it's also when we shine at our greatest. There are countless examples of humans coming together and helping eachother out in times of strife throughout history, and pretending that humans are doomed to always repeat the same mistakes seems like a doomer take that discourages taking any action.
"BOS is problematic" -from a guy who based his character off a self-poisoning cult
A heretic to the glorious division of Atom.
@@crylec6534 hey brother, I know the codes to make the big funny boom thing in your submarine base go boom, want it?
@@bringurownvibe GLORIOUS DIVISION
Gonna need some fire ant nectar to resist this sick burn.
At least the cult of atom is self correcting, the brotherhood is still jizzing their power armor at the sight of a working toaster.
I love the brotherhood as a faction because of their flaws. In rl there is in my opinion not a single organisation/government without flaws. This is why fallout as a franchise interest me so much. Because they never have made any faction without flaws. Even the followers of the apocalypse have their flaws. ^^
To me one of the main draws of fallout is that there are no morally good factions, only varying degrees of evil fighting to survive in an irradiated wasteland.
@@ICantThinkOfAFunnyHandle there is the lesser evil however (not straight up kidnapping/killing random people)
@@ICantThinkOfAFunnyHandleI'd say the followers of the apocalypse are arguably "good." To me it's moreso that most people in the wasteland are too preoccupied with surviving to go out and do random good deeds, not that all the factions are morally bad
Dude, flaws? They literally go against what they claim to be doing. They arent saving humanity from anything . They mass murder human beings made with fucking D N A because they arent FLESH human beings. That's it. They murder innocents and steal resources from settlements to aid them in mass murdering those innocent people because they're the absolute closest you can get to nazis in fallout
Cant forget the tech they " safekeep" just helps do more mass murder of innocents and stealing.
That's what a synth would say!
I generally appreciate your content, and I'm not exactly a fan of the Brotherhood myself (as I generally find militaristic groups dull and find authoritarian elitists grating), but this sounds more like a (well-edited and eloquent) Reddit post than a well-researched lore video that tries to remain balanced and look at all the angles. Errors and assumptions from the idea that the Brotherhood looking for dangerous tech somehow means that your average settlement will lose access to laser rifles or food purifiers to the idea that they didn't actually teach how to respect and use tech; that last one is exactly how the NCR went from a small community that didn't know about crop rotation to a budding nation with paved roads and laser fences within the Vault Dwellers lifetime. There is obviously too much within the video to approach in a comment but I wanted to at least write a little, as you are usually much more balanced than this. Ultimately I feel arguments like the overall stance of the video come from a place of 'real world' values and politics than they do objective looks at the setting and the contexts of it, and factions places within it. It's a largely lawless hellscape and the only authority anyone has is that which they can enforce with, well, force. The Brotherhood's harsh nature and stances are part of why it's endured so long - long enough to actively save or play a part in saving the world from new apocalypses or disasters. This is a setting where places like Big MT exist and you can't turn over a rock without tripping over a Mad Scientist(!!) and his 'hidden' base.
They canonically helped the Vault Dweller in stopping the Master, and Scribe Vree's notes a path to confronting the Master with his plans flaws. They stopped Doctor Blackburn from polluting the water table (iirc) with a FEV 'Behemoth' strain that would have turned most of humanity into ravening cannibalistic hulks and resulted in a second apocalypse. They might have stopped the Calculator from conquering humanity with a robot army. They played a part in stopping the Enclave the first time and did most of the actual warfare the second time while we were napping. Not one other faction off the top of my head has actually done anything to 'save' humanity other than the BOS in the entire franchise. Now, that's potentially because they are the writers pets, but that's an entirely different conversation. What's relevant is that little details like them becoming the Ecowarriors of Steel and settling down to build schools would have, sadly, meant they weren't there to save humanity several times over. None of this is to say the Brotherhood isn't flawed, terribly so, or that they aren't in danger of going somewhere dark and ending up villains, of course. It'll be interesting to see where they go longterm.
All that said, thanks for making Fallout content and helping keeping the community rolling.
I couldnt have say it better myself. I also would add that the Brotherhood is in fact a meritocracy its just pure coincidence that the Maxson are more qualified to be High Elders.
Such is a big issue right now, the people have forgotten how to split fiction from reality. Though their harsh nature isn't even a lore point until later in the series. In fallout one they are heavily isolationist until they begrudgingly intervene to help the wastes from the present threat of the supermutant army. In fallout 2 the brotherhood is even more isolationist to the point of waning influence and power in the wasteland but a low enough profile to remain autonomous of the growing factions at the time. In 4 especially the bos acts out of character and this in turn has been extrapolated to be the brotherhoods attitude in totality when frankly they are just nerds made by nerds using a DND analogue.
This my first video of yours that I watched but it genuinely changed how I look at what has always been my favorite faction in Fallout (with the exception of the Followers of the Apocalypse). Thanks for the upload!
The Fallout Tactics Brotherhood of Steel is the best one that was operating. The Fallout Tactics story is personally one I like. The idea of the Calculator was very cool. It's like Skynet from Terminator in way. Though a group of antagonists using the ai network and armies to take over the continent would perhaps have more potential for story endings.
This sounds like a synth run TH-cam channel… don’t be swayed brothers and sisters
The Lyon’s group is the only thing I like about them
I guess it does make sense that the Lyon's chapter would eventually form a personality cult around someone more like a dictator rather than the way Elder Lyons was. It always bothered me though that the lone wanderer just fucked off and left Sarah behind when it was implied that they were friends. Inheriting the Enclave's technology was probably the beginning of what sent them on the wrong path as they became the hegemony of the capital wasteland overnight with nothing to oppose them. It's natural they would become self righteous and want to spread what they perceived as "the right" across the east coast. West coast brotherhood is still more interesting though and closer to what I imagine they would be.
The weird thing about the Lone Wanderer is that there doesn't seem to be even a slight reference to them as far as I know. This is despite the facts you basically save/seriously aid Lyonshood repeatedly, can befriend the Outcasts, and even help the Railroad/strike at the Institute. Almost as if the new BOS reign scrubbed the records of them, for whatever reason...
@@Umbra_Ursus That's because Bethesda does an awful job with consistency and world building. In New Vegas there are constant references to the previous installments like 2 with the fate of Navarro or the theories that the madman in Novac is the protagonist of F2. Bethesda often chooses to just ignore massive inconsistencies. The gunners being funded by who? Or the fact that super mutants were able to spread all the way across the midwest without ever seemingly settling? The FEV program too and the fact that the Enclave somehow recovered after 2 when there whole governmental structure was essentially wiped clean.
@@gino456123789 1. No idea. Between Talon Company and the Gunners, super well trained, equipped, funded, and fully unexplained "mercenary" raider gangs are apparently just the norm.
2. The Vault 87 mutants came from that vault, the Institute mutants are the same failed experiment constantly dumped on the surface, and I don't know enough about 76 to comment. Point being, Bethesda's super mutants (For better or worse) are basically all unrelated to the Master's attempts.
3. The F.E.V. thing is apparently a blunt retcon so they could use it, but I actually liked how 3 handled it. 4, on the other hand... It's like everything Institute related.
4. Credit where it's due, Bethesda did the Enclave slightly better than the old games. It's stupid to think a pre-war ultra-militarized shadow government was literally just two bases, and that's it. Did them worse in a lot of other areas, but at least they were treated like an actual army that would have prepped for the end of the world.
@@Umbra_Ursus Yeah it's true that the Enclave had a much more intimidating presence in 3 with Adam's air force base basically being a massive fortress bigger than even the oil rig. I guess it just seems disconnected when factions from 2 and NV appear all the way on the East coast seemingly at random. I do hope with Fallout 5 they can the settlement building and focus more on branching questlines that actually impact the world. I have a feeling they're gonna make the Enclave the villains again which is fine so long as they brush on a reformist faction maybe instead of the evil aspect. It just is gonna be strange to see what the "canon" is considering all the endings in 4 where the entire brotherhood expeditionary force is blown to cinders. Out of all the factions they had though the BOS was the most interesting and nuanced. The Institute were just dumb as were the Railroad in my opinion.
@@gino456123789 They actually sorta did touch on a "reformed" Enclave in 3: Colonel Autumn just wanted the Enclave to effectively run the wastes, as is its point. Eden was the one staying true to the Richardson crap from 2 of "Purge everyone, NOW". They did nothing with this, sadly, but it was there.
As per the canon end of 4? Pretty much guaranteed that the Institute burned, and the BOS survived. Bethesda are Brotherhood fanboys, so there's no chance they were beaten by anyone else, and the Institute... I mean, everyone else in the game hates them. I seriously doubt even Bethesda would just randomly declare the faction that has been soundly mocked by pretty much *everyone* is the ultimate winner of 4, if 5 brings it up.
This was a great take on the Brotherhood. As an independent minded Wastelander, they have always been an annoyance.
I really wish that the changes implemented by Elder Lyons had remained in place after he and his daughter died. The east coast Brotherhood could have been a force for good in the world. Arthur Maxson might have been responsible for some (admittedly impressive) short term gains in terms of martial strength, but the long term impact of his regressive policies will ultimately doom that chapter. That is, if another forward thinking individual like Owen or Sarah does not assume command of the chapter after Arthur is killed or passes away. I have to wonder what the Kid from 101 would have thought about the direction the East Coast Brotherhood took under Arthur.
that's just not true though. A lot of the lyon's ideas is still rooted in fallout 4 bos. It's just a lot less desperate and with a clear focus on their purpose. They don't openly accept new recruits, but they still have a decently open option. Sponsorship actually makes a lot of sense and seems to have worked out really well for them. The common troop are still rather good aligned with tid bit of that medical survey suggesting most members only wish to kill in self defense. elder maxson places scouring for tech as the primary goal, but that doesn't mean he dismissed all the other aspects that lyons wanted to do like helping local communities (sorry for the on sentence im tired and cant appropriately find figure a good correction). it's just a more practical common sense stance. Especially, if you're going for a disciplined and well equipped military organization in the wasteland.
I don't really know what other problems you might have them. I'm honestly really confused with all the hate fallout 4 bos gets. I can understand with the synth-bad dialogue, but it really seems like everyone has that as a preliminary reason. Even then it's an understandable contention for anyone to have for synths. It's a pretty common philosophical debate in scifi. Admittedly there is a greater emphasis on the perspective that synths aren't humans because they're simply actually machines. This is a rather distinct difference with other scifi settings as some will say oh you've made humans in a tube and that's bad. Overall the main goal of destroying the institute is done and making sure another faction can't do something like that is a very understandable thing to focus on if you found that sort of activities disagreeable.
@@gpheonix1 Maxson's militant stance on keeping technology out of the hands of the people of the common wealth coupled with his frankly xenophobic views on emergent species of the post apocalypse were fairly damning in my humble opinion. The Institute might have had a number of policies I disagreed with(Synths as property even after it was proven this was no longer a truth following the evidence that they had evolved beyond their programming), but to disregard yet another possible opportunity to further the human cause wholesale was frankly horrifying. He condemned one of his most trusted allies(Danse) to death based on the idea he was not human, even though Danse had upheld the ideals of the BOS most admirably speaks to his blind adherence to a doctrine that was flawed in the extreme. Maxson is guiding the brotherhood down a path of doomed obsolescence that was proven in in least one instance(the Mojave chapter under Elder Elijah and (depending upon player choice) Elder Hardin). If given the choice between blind militancy and altruism, I think I would march with the Minutemen every single time. Having said all that? It is a game. Support who you like and let the chips fall where they may. No one is insisting you are wrong, and at the end of the day if you side with the BOS who am I to say you are wrong? No one, that is who. Have a nice day(skates off in full roller samurai gear and if you get the reference you get plus five internets).
@@sneakyskunk1 don’t got a lot of time atm so I’ll respond to your first few sentences for now. The ebos nor does elder maxson want to keep technology out of the people’s hands. There’s nothing that supports that. I can only assume they’d be against people using dev and other kinds and close mass destruction weapons. The xenophobia is not xenophobia. This isn’t warhammer 40k. Ghouls and super mutants aren’t new species. They’re human races that were twisted by radiation and fev respectively.
For synths (which thinking you meant), that’s a far more contentious issue. Putting aside even the possibility that they are even sentient. Machines being sentient is a very common trope that never leads to anything good. This never works out in fiction. I can’t imagine a world that was one wrong turn from being dominated by super mutants instead of humans should take that chance. Considering synths were specifically made to replace humanity (or at least that’s what we could presume, there wasn’t a lot left to interpret what they meant by mankind redefined). Maxson’s stance on this is really something I wouldn’t be surprised to see from even the ncr. The synths and really all together with rogue ai are just a far different situation that fallout has ever faced.
I’ll be back to read the rest of what you got, but don’t expect that until later tonight.
@@gpheonix1 I saw nothing to support the idea that Maxson's BOS was willing to lend technological aid to the people of the Commonwealth. There is a fully functional hydroponic farm aboard the Prydwen, yet at no point did anyone in the BOS even suggest that it might be beneficial to begin distribution of that agricultural boon to the various settlements that might have benefitted from it. There was plenty of power armor in the Commonwealth, and yet the scribes displayed no interest in retrofitting it/providing training in its use to non-faction members who could have pressed it into service to defend their settlements against the many perils of the Commonwealth. I saw plenty of vertibirds on combat missions, but no missions of mercy(ala area patrols and Aqua Pura caravan defense in the Capital Waste under Elder Lyons in Fallout 3). The fact that they are actively engaged in a war with other factions in the Commonwealth would not negate the possibility of rendering aid to the civilian populace, something we have a precedent for even in the modern day. That is to say nothing of the coercion tactics the Sole Survivor was allowed to employ on behalf of the BOS(again depending on player choice). It could be argued the BOS are an occupying force in the Commonwealth. They may claim they were there to the benefit of the native populace, but there is more to standing a civilization back on its feet(something the Commonwealth seemed to be well on its way toward) than fighting its enemies.
Ghouls and Super Mutants can hardly be classed as human under the most charitable terms. True, they do have their origins in humanity. That is why I employed the notion of an emergent species. They have been forcibly evolved(radiation and FEV respectively as you pointed out). No human can survive the things a ghoul or super mutant can. I will concede that both ghouls and super mutants are an evolutionary dead end, but it was an evolution all the same. Both groups have endured prejudice and the BOS have absolutely been a contributing factor in all instances. Yet we do have examples of ghouls being beneficial to humanity, far less so for super mutants(though I can think of a few examples).
We have seen ghouls who employed their pre-war knowledge to make their world a better place not just for themselves but for non ghouls who benefitted from that knowledge(i.e. Dayglow, Broken Hills, Gecko, The Slog). Ghouls have also served in human militaries. The NCR had several ghouls in their ranks, and (although it is no longer considered cannon) the Chicago BOS detachment did as well. Ghouls have proven that they can be an asset, yet they regularly face discrimination by humans.
I really have a much harder time trying to justify anything more than a KOS policy toward super mutants. Even pre Bethesda games did not portray them as much more than heavy weapon wielding incredible hulks. We do have examples of benign super mutants: Marcus, Virgil, Fawkes, Erickson, Lilly, Uncle Leo, Strong. These seem to be the exception, but that they exist proves that super mutants can be more than slobbering beasts. Super Mutants have cohabitated peacefully with humans(i.e. Jacobstown, Broken Hills) suggesting that outright eradication need not be the only option on the table regarding human/super mutant relations. Like the ghouls, they have even engaged in human military actions against the various threats to humanity(NCR Rangers, non cannon Chicago BOS). Super Mutant primacy can not be allowed(as you rightfully pointed out). That said humanity could likely work towards peace and even cooperation if the right approaches were taken.
Fallout has seen hostile A.I. before, just as it has seen non hostile A.I. Two notable examples of evil A.I. are The Calculator(non cannon Fallout Tactics) and John Henry Eden(Fallout 3). In the case of Eden, it could be argued that was the lesser of two evils so that point is absolutely debatable. On the good side would be ZAX 1.2(Fallout 1) as well as ADA(Fallout 4). Both of these A.I. seem fairly benevolent and very much in service to humanity. As with everything, it all comes down to a case by case basis. Much like everything in Fallout, actions speak louder than words. The various A.I. a player encounters over the course of the series could speak to that point beyond the few examples I list here.
As to Synths, they are as much victims of the more sinister intentions of the Institute as any human they ever replaced. The Railroad would not have been necessary if there weren't multiple synths who came to the conclusion that they nothing more than a tool to be used and discarded. The same could be said regarding the Synth Retention Bureau. Many synths felt their options were so limited with regards to freedom that mindwipes became common practice to allow them to integrate into human society. Here I will again concede the point that if you erase the personality that arrived at free will than a debate is to be had as to how valid that personality was in the first place. Yet we know that recovered synths have found their way right back to the aforementioned conclusion that led them to flee in the first place. This is discovered when speaking with Glory regarding G5-19 in Fallout 4. Here, Glory mentions that G5-19 had been recovered and wiped multiple times before being rendered comatose. I doubt this is an uncommon occurrence, and this is the most prominent example most relevant to the player I can think of. Are synths perfectly innocent little kittens to be coddled and coo'd over? Not at all, as at least one synth named Gabriel(B5-92) turned to raiding post mind wipe. My point here is that sentience is very much in evidence among the synths, and a balance can and should be struck for the betterment of humanity.
I know it is easy to slip in to cynicism with regards to the many perils humanity faces in the post apocalyptic world of Fallout, but in there are many examples of rising above terrible circumstances throughout the entire series. As mentioned previously, it is just a game and you may play it any way you like. Kill' em all and let Atom sort 'em out? Go for it. Walk the wastes as humanity's one true savior? Just as viable a playthrough. No one should tell you how to play the game, just that you had fun while you did. In conclusion, I have way to much time on my hands. I'm going to go eat a tuna fish sandwich. Have a good one.
Upfront, i wanna wait for your next reply before looking at your last reply. I just wanna keep things together if you know what I mean.
First thing, I agree. I fully endorse whatever faction you like. This is a game to have fun with. Besides, every faction is debatably good in their own way. It's not like warhammer 40k where quite a few human factions are, without caution, blatant xenophobes and racists. Imo, fallout is like a grounded lite warhammer 40k. Where the wilder elements that may take grim dark into grim derp aren't nearly as present.
Second thing, there is no evidence that I'm aware of that actually proves synths are actualy indeed sentient. Beyond the typical idea of what a typical real person would say a sentient person is.
Okay. You are taking all the points of: Not harvesting institute tech and barring danse with treason way out of proportion. Those two things are no where near as bad as the mad man that was elijah. Surely you can't be equating what are debatebly good faith from their perspective. To the wilds of shit that elijah did and was going to do. I simply dont accept you seriously believe barring an officer of treason for both: abandoning his post, dissertion, and being a synth. All that somehow equates to literally everything people including you say that the ebos does. Taking tech from the people. Belligerently waging war against factions (admittedly the post of helios one is more righteous considering its danger). Then later on could actually wipe all life from mojave. Like I'm drawing a blank here on other things, but i honestly cannot believe you think maxson is as crazy as elijah. Like you could actually talk to maxson and change his mind. Actually make him compromise. You never could do that for elijah. Never make him compromise on his core goal.
I have zero problem with the minutemen philosophically wise. In fact I'd say it's my new favored faction to inherit what was lost. Theyre the only faction in my mind that could truly recreate america. Sadly, the mechanics that would actually flourish the real problems of trying to rangle together a militia aren't there. It's still a fun faction to play. Especially, with mods like journey, place anywhere, and fcom. @@sneakyskunk1
I love seein' these videos!
;D Just what I needed today
No, YOUR problematic. AD VICTORIUM
Ad Victorium, Knight!
I get why they exist but IMO stop forcing them im places they should not be in, or forcing a narrative to include them. Create a new faction please and keep the BOS consistent
Like IMO the Atom Cats should have been the regions defacto Power Armor group with a different militant group to be anti-Institute
I get 76, but you complain about the Brotherhood in Fallout 4? Really?
I'm in the same boat after doctor li left for the commonwealth and i found out that 4 take place there even before finding out they were I knew it was gonna be fallout 76 broke the lore tho
Agreed, I get that the brotherhood (a west coast group) could travel all across the continental US especially with their near monopoly on advanced pre-war tech but if thats the case and they have that kinda outreach, why would they remain so steadfast in the past? why not, for example, establish a proper government system and ya know, actually rebuild civilization from the meager standing it holds now in fallout lore?
The only real faction we’ve seen actually trying to rebuild pre-war government structures is the NCR, but if the BoS has so much overwhelming power, they could easily rival proper government factions like the NCR, especially in area’s outside of the NCR’s reach. Idk seems like Caesar definitely has a point in calling them a “dead end.” 200 years is a rather long time for complete lawlessness, and I just figured a 200 year old faction would have more of a vested interest in trying to restore at least part of that pre-war stability. At this point the BoS seems like nothing more than a continent spanning scavenger/raider clan than “defenders of post-war civilization”
@@Drace90 i did not like the inclusion of the BH in 4. Felt it was forced. 76 was far far worse tho.
Well, all groups in Fallout 4 - except the Institute itself - are anti-institute! Hell, everybody blows it up (except the institute!)! That's IMHO why all the factions (except the Institute under new leadership!) are simply dumbasses, even if they don't want to make synths: Just use everything else in there! I mean they produce food, water, clothing, weapons, armor etc. and have a modern facility with a great standard of living! Then again:
Most factions in Fallout are just stupid! Hell, nobody cares to clean up the places they inhabit or to rebuild! Now, most of them are like squatter-hippies and basically useless! Hell, even the bigger fish like the NCR don't have stuff like say Pre-Fab-Structures for military bases or much in the way of an airforce (they have what? One truly working vertibird - Bearforce One - and that's it?)
I'm going to paraphrase the venerable Mr. Caption;
"Thanks to their big fuck-off sky boat, we'll never have a Fallout game without the Brotherhood now."
i only completed one plot in FO4, the brotherhoods main storyline. to me it was like the army experience of fighting for a greater cause with the resources to do it.
gaining superiority by knowing knowledge and technology is power, to me society will resume faster if they win. it would return to normal after they took over our species would be safe. they only care about stopping the murder robots/bandits/mutants. and they dont want Humans destroying humans with tech theyd prevent the war from happening again
And this is what makes them such a good faction for the Fallout series.
but how all they do is hoard technology
@@waleedkhan2991 Exactly they are a great faction to compete in the wasteland because of all the issues listed in the video. Pretty much becuase the stories around them write them shelves and they are an easy faction o route for and against.
They're a great faction, but they should only be that - *a* faction.
Forcing them into every setting and creating plots around their ideology _(3, Steel Reign)_ makes them seem like they're the focus of the series.
@@a.monach7602. Interplay was literally planning to send these guys to Florida and Alaska; This was clearly the intent well before Bethesda got involved.
@@dragonbornexpress5650 _Really?_ Wouldn't surprise me, as Interplay did make some questionable decisions back then.
Still - making the Brotherhood the focus isn't a good idea, regardless of developer.
Honestly with the exception of Fallout 3, the Brotherhood is probably the biggest secret bad guy, only being the "good" option when there are no better ones.
when i first entered the prydwen, the first thing i heard was a random calling Elder Lyons a fool right after thretening Hancock that was with me my trigger finger shaked a little bit, you bet that if they weren't marked as essencials they would died all right there
Part of me wants to see the east coast chapter spread and grow like the NCR did.
I swear if it weren't for Veronica, I'd be wiping out the Mojave Brotherhood in every playthrough 😒
Have you ever heard of a brotherhood member turning into a ghoul? Ghoulification can happen, wonder what the brotherhood would do if that happens.
Definitely summary execution
Yes that's an inevitability, but it isn't enough for discrediting a person that has liven so long up to this point
@@TheDragonborn97 Depending on the Elder/Chapter maybe just exile. Also it might depend on their rank in the BoS a Paladin who starts suffering from ghoulism might get sent on 'Noble' suicide mission.
Oh they'll put down one of their own no problem if it means the codex deems it so.
@@klaykid117 I mean if we base it on how Maxson treated Danse, summary execution is inevitable. And he was just a synth. That information could've been hidden, there's no hiding a ghoul.
Miss when the only one I know to use the word "problematic" was Mordin Solus, it's just sounds dumb and pretentious coming from anyone else.
Mordin: Humans' overuse of word "problematic"..... *inhale* ... problematic
Elder Maxson: “Flesh is flesh, machine is machine, the two were never meant to intertwine”
Also elder maxson: (is cybernetically enhanced)
I would rather prop up a tent at the east boston memorial park, then be scavenging around in fear. The brotherhood of steel is strict in many ways, which is what would bother me a bit. But, i would rather live in that tent and give some of the fish I catch to them, than not. I am saying this, if this was a real life situation.
the brotherhood has embodied all the ideals that made the enclave the bad guys
I'll give the Fo4 brotherhood this, it makes it easier to roleplay as a dieselpunk 40k marine.
Without diesel. You know, it's actually possible with modern tech to create diesel-powered exoskeleton with armor. It's just would be ridiculously impractical
18:02 They didn't invade the commonwealth, it was a special military operation
Same thing
Enclave: We'll save the world for ourselves.
Brotherhood: We'll save everyone from themselves.
They both look out for numero uno but only the Brotherhood pretends at a savior complex.
People that use the word problematic are usually the problem
Yeah, if this guy is using it seriously then it translates to “left wing wrong think”.
But it’s whatever. Giving this type of analysis to Fallout is almost silly. Every game throws the canon all over the place. There’s nothing to dissect other than a mess.
@@J.B.1982 Who said anything about left wing 🙄🧐
Caesar is absolutely right about the BoS.
BOS is shoot on sight for me, friggan zealots lol
Icon checks out
Bro just used the p word… 😔
Even with all you said. All the sense you made. They still best option out of every group out there
Everything's that's happened to them seems to tell otherwise.
@@James-ne3lc I mean everyone has it rough, not only them. If you want to take it logically, they are the most effective at dealing with every threat in the wasteland because they have firepower, technical knowledge, manpower and training. They would be my best bet for surviving the wasteland.
Fight the power, death to all main faction!
Can you make a similar analysis about other factions such as the NCR, Minutemen, Caesar's Legion, Mr. House, Yes Man etc?
Odd, everytime I play through FO1 it's Brotherhood Technology that makes the NCR feasible. And they "wisely" stayed out of the politics of the fledgling Republic. To the point that circa 80 years later the two organizations still worked closely together in FO2.
Maxson is even the name of an NCR state, named after the Brotherhood's founder. They were effectively a self-governing part of the NCR for decades.
Exterminating the continuation of Synths is noble I’m not sure about killing the ones already alive
I love they they ignore that synths are killing people and replacing them like it’s a huge problem in the Commonwealth
I love going the psycho hoarder route for the brotherhood, Hardin is something the BOS need after what Elijah has put them through
I'd like to open some discussion into the events with the Brotherhood in 76 and that time period and how they went from almost altruistic to complete sociopaths in 4. It seems pretty clear what has to then be the canonical outcome of 76 for the Brotherhood to exist how they do in the other games. I mean if Layla persisted at least the East coast chapters would still speak her name if not act as her vision of the Brotherhood was. So canonically the player had to choose the Knight and Layla died in the wasteland.
Knight shim did nothing wrong. Paladin Rahmani was a dangerous idiot who was going to take the brotherhood awol the first chance she got.
@@theknave1915 That's one persons opinion yeah.
@@SecretlySeven not an opinion it literally happens. There is no way to stop it. Worst mission of Steel dawn.
@@theknave1915 I agree! It is undoubtedly your opinion of the people and the events sure.
@@SecretlySeven no, it is an objectively true statement that paladin Rahmani took her brotherhood chapter AWOL.
Like come on I know fallout 76 isn't that popular but you can do the bare minimum of pull it up oxhorn or some other fallout TH-cam that does the play by play. Bethesda made it so that there is only one real choice and that is Shim.
The numberstation sound clip in the intro is somewhat unsettling, I like it 👌
the issue of synths, leads to the worst faction namely the railroad, who will risk humans to preserve artificial life that cannot advance humanity beyond its battery life and as the institute show, a corrupted synth can become a murderous machine while thinking it is human. the brotherhood east coast chapter may seem fanatical but their stance against human created abominations is true as sooner or later these abominations will become dominant leading to the extinction of mankind. while strong and a handful of other super mutant are the exception, these greenies kill and eat people. then you get the terrible humans like raiders but the legion and enclave show the worst of mankind.
The Brotherhood is willing to kill many exceptions and people who advance life even though they themselves will not do the same and you fail to mention how they treat ghouls who are still people
My man you're making some of the best fallout stuff right now.
I love the observation that the Bos is a religious organization- I hope one of the future games explore this angle at some point since it seems the Bos is going to be present in every Fallout game set in post-war america at this point, since they're so well spread.
Interplay was already intending that to be the case decades ago; Hell, they were planning to send the BOS to fucking Florida and Alaska of all places. I don't think the Brotherhood of Steel are going away anytime soon.
the brotherhood of steel was inspired by wastelands the original games religious tech order. the best modern example I can think of is actually the tech priests of mars from the 40k franchise.
this doesn't make them problematic as the brotherhood is close to the old Teutonic or templar order( the templars who ran with a lot of money thanks to keeping pilgrims safe on their way to the holy land). they are conflicted as they lack a civilian order but what do you expect from an army without a government. their authority comes square from being the army.like the enclave. the original members were well-intentioned and they likely helped others like with killing the vipers. as what they got in return was only shoot at for it they changed to be recluses in their bunker and sent the good meaning members out of the western group as in 76 and tactics leaving the more religiously dogmatic at home as could happen to any group or company. what the brotherhood lacks is over site and a will to govern. why the will for if grew naturally it could be very evil. more it would generate a governing group and they would guide the brotherhood to being an army the enclave is the dark reflection of what could be as seen in fallout 2 and 3. what they are is a sheathed blade holding onto their past unable to embrace the future. given all I've seen in the fallout games playing every last one. new vegas does them a disservice by going backward for the group. and though maxum in fallout 4 is hard on synths it's understandable not so much right as. they fight mutants and now robots that are to close to humans. neither are a true evil but pose a danger as such they are seen as a threat. by being able to save danse you can see he's not as firm on his belief as one thinks. as a leader though he will not show his men for they need to believe he believes. the best expansion on brotherhood lore that feels organic to them is tactics to me. Bethesda does try to replicate it in 3 and 76 may coincide with tactics in some way. in 4 you see them start to govern (capital wastes) and it is not an invasion of (Boston) just like when spain went to south America its an expedition. to small to hold the land but enough to get a foothold and by not killing the civilian population and having no relative army to fight they are just "sightseeing".
the biggest issue with the brother is the games try and keep them to their roots (fallout new vegas) and ignore one of their best forms (fallout tactics) because if the brotherhood change in any way besides being a backward tech cult every one loses their mind. they don't have to be the good guys they do need to move on though. taking the form of tyrants or protectors. harsh but willing protectors. lastly, all authority is not any more than a man said he could. tell your boss you quit and he can do nothing to stop you only now what do you do next.
It’s been 15 years and I still remember that speech about the brotherhood from ceaser
Im not why people remember the bos in fallout 1 as good or benevolent. I feel like they literally sent you off to the glow to die, and just got surprised when you came back, and then saw you as a useful asset
To be fair, Ashur didn't desert, he was left for dead by the Brotherhood