I was with the Houston Police Dept from 1964 to March of 1990. At some point in the mid-1970's, I was a Detective in the Burglary& Theft division. I carried a series 70 Colt 45 ACP. I had been handloading since 1965 and was carrying these bullets loaded over 7.2 grains of Unique. The bullets were marketed by Speer under their catalog #4477 as "Jacketed Magnum Hollow Points". I had loaded and fired several hundred of these before I carried them. Another Detective wanted me to load some and I only agreed to do so after he fired at least 50 rounds in his pistol. He carried a modified Colt National Match 45 ACP. His Colt had been tuned by one of the best gunsmiths in Texas. I loaded him the ammo and his gun fired and functioned 100%. As luck would have it, he walked into a robbery about three weeks later. He was in plain cloths, so the suspect didn't recognize him. The suspect turned away from him when his partner walked in, exposing his left side. Thw first officer drew his 45 and fired three fast shots. The first round struck about three inches above his waste, hitting the bottom of his rib cage and passed thru the bottom of his stomach being stopped by the rib cage on the other side. The second shot entered above the first, went thru the ribs and both lungs and was stopped by the other rib cage. The third shot was higher, went thru the rib cage hit the heart, stopped by the rig cage and slammed him into a wall. The medical examiner said he was dead when he hit the floor. After the autopsy, I got to examine the bullets. They were all at least 70 caliber. I still have one unopened box, and one partially used box of these rounds. They worked in this incident!
Congratulations on surviving the craziness of HPD. Of course it wasn't as bad back then from what I hear. I can't imagine anybody wanting to work there now. Especially with the current political craziness going on.
Back in the early 70’s my grandfather carried a 38 special snub nose revolver. He used 38+p flat nose lead rounds. I used to watch him drill out the center of them and pie cut the edges with his straight razor. I was about 10 years old and curious. I asked him why he was doing it and he said that it would make them flare out and make a bigger hole. I never got to see if it worked but he swore by it. Growing up in bloody Harlan Kentucky I’m pretty sure he knew it was worth the effort.
The Flying Ashtray was my 1st LEO duty load in my 5" 45 acp in the late 80's and very early 90's. I still have a box or 2 of them. About the only other options in 45 acp was the Winchester Silvertip & Federal HiShok. Then the Federal Hydra Shok and the infamous Black Talon from Winchester. The HydraShok replaced the CCI Lawman as my duty load and remained that until the HST came out and the remained my duty carry load until I retired in 2013 after 25 yrs. Thanks for flashback.
I had a similar career path and am a several years behind you, but started out with the Hydras, then HSTs in .45, then we went to .40s, again with HSTs, and now to 9mm with Hornady Critical Duty. Welcomed the .40s as they still hit hard and were easier to carry. Not a fan of the 9mm, as it's a step down and I shoot as well with the bigger calibers. I could insert a rant here, but I will refrain.
@bryangrote8781 many duty ammunition users: corrections, armed guards, sworn LE, state officers use Federal HST or Speer Gold Dot 2020s. I have 1 50rd box +P 230gr .45acp. HST. I use my Federal HST for .357sig too. Good ballistics.
Good test, Brian! The 200 gr "Flying Garbage Can" as we used to call them, were the bullet of choice to carry back in the bad old days. As has been mentioned, the idea was that they started out the same as an expanded 9mm. They very seldom worked unless you pulled the bullets and loaded them up 1000 or so FPS. Even then they sometimes (usually?) failed! They were not as good as many believed! Then again, getting shot with a ,45 cal bullet is seldom a good thing! I know guys who used razor blades to cut the skives deeper, which sort of worked but they just didn't expand very much. Also, there were a LOT of 1911's that simply wouldn't feed these huge hollow points, so that was another consideration. I haven't seen any of these bullets in many a year, mainly because they just don't work! Cheers, jc
@@upholdthesecond92 I've wanted some vintage Whiz Bang stuff because of Bella Twin. I had some S&W ammo made in Rock Creek, Ohio and regret shooting it
Been helping my dad go through some old supplies lately (mostly 1950s -1970s) and had the same thought. CCI, Peters, (Remington,) & Western (Winchester) specifically had great looking boxes and logos.
I knew several LEOs who carried these in 5" 1911s back in the day. One in particular was a really cool Vietnam veteran who had the tactics and skill to compensate for lack of expansion. He said "it's 45 and it doesn't really matter if it expands since it starts out the same diameter a 9 expands to if you're lucky." This was in the mid '80s and the infamous FBI shootout was still fresh in everyone's mind.
Penetration is often argued as the most important factor in handgun cartridge wounding potential outside the skill of the shooter. This was proven during the tests conducted on cadavers in the early 1900s. Also determined that nothing below a .45 with hot loading should be used in a defensive handgun.
So far, the best of the old legendary bullets you've tested were the Remington and Federal 125gr SJHP for .357 Mag. It makes sense why those were renown back in the day. They still look incredible by today's standards.
Thank goodness for development over the decades to make better rounds. The FT.lbs were also pretty low. Might not have opened, but still would do the trick being a big projectile. Thanks to the guy who sent these in!
What REALLY impressed me was that both your pistols fed the "Flying Ashtrays" without having to first polish their feed ramps. Back when those rounds were used by Law Enforcement (in both Colt's 1911s and Smiths chambered in .45ACP) it was pretty much a given that the feed ramps would require a fine level of polishing in those types of pistols. As good as the Lawman series was, I still think the (original) Cor Bon loading with its 200grnish "Flying Ashtray" was utilized by any number of Law Enforcement agencies. Those Cor Bon rounds were HOT in the high +p or possibly even +p+ range. I wish I still had the two boxes I held onto until around 2004 when I fired them out of my then P-90 Ruger service pistol. Even in 2004 those nearly 20-year-old rounds were barn burners sure enough!
I carried this exact load in a 4506 when I first became a police officer in 1990. Switched to Black Talons and Gold Dots at some point and various other loads over the years.
I still have some CorBon but the 400 .40 caliber round. I keep a Para Hi cap 1911 clone that I assembled from scratch from high end parts and it is custom fitted with both .45 and a 400 CorBon barrels that utilize the same bushing but each have their own lock up links and both fitted to a NOS WWII Remington GI slide. Shoots spot on and I can select if I want to go suppressed with the .45 or full bore .40.
You called It correctly, I'm curious to see how they wound do with just a tee-shirt, or bare jelly, Thank's to Mike and you for this test, I'm looking forward to the next test, you are the most comprehensive on these tests period, Have a safe & fun weekend, BTW, I just realized that I've had these tools for 60-years! 👍🇺🇸
Seriously, do the bare jelly. It's compulsory at this point. You can't show what you showed and not give us the satisfaction of seeing what the round is capable of without that hindrance. Let us see it open!..
THANK YOU! I have looked high and low for ballistic information and modern testing results on these and, like you, turned up zilch. I've wanted to see how they stack up for years and now I know. LOL. Yep, testing back then did not include heavy clothing barriers. Just water or just gel. I was just starting out my LE career when I got my first 1911 (a Llama ... don't judge I was young and poor) and though it was quite an investment for me then, I procured a box of these "flying ashtrays" because the gunrag gurus were all insisting it was the best option. Honestly, back then it WAS the best option. Amazingly, that old Llama fed them well. I only toted it a few times when playing reserve but later carried those same rounds in my SIG P220 that I bought right after being sworn in. It fed them and liked them. Alas, they are long gone and like you, I have a heck of a time finding any more (and the price makes me less inclined to buy them just to shoot for memory's sake). I suspect in my semi-tropical, Gulf Coast environment where a light t-shirt is usually the dress code of the day, these might work okay. Certainly no worse than hardball in any case. And like you said, heck, they start out .45" and 200 grains. Thanks again!
I too carried the 200gr. flying ashtray, but in my early Leo days I used two S&W 45 revolvers w/bbls cut to 4" and industrial hard chromed. One for carry and one for backup if the other went down. For these revolvers we were allowed to carry what we loaded so I used 45 Auto Rim brass which is much stronger and velocity was about 1180 fps with Herco powder. Carried those for years, but not the regular factory loading which I figured wouldn't expand well.
Similar to my Depat. issue when I carried my 1911 back in the 80's. The CCI Lawmen ammo was not the same however. our velocities were 1,000fps + out a 5". Good test though. I have some old 9BPLE 9mm that we used to carry as well. Could send some if ya want.
A long time ago I bought those and carried them in a Browning BDA 45 (West German Sig P220). It was the only one of 45 ACP pistols I owned that would reliably feed it. I'm surprised your 1911 fed them reliably, neither of my Colt 70 Series would.
i like how you show side by side comparison data of most commonly used barrel lengths, loads, different manufacturers, velocity, ft/lb, standard deviations, etc …all using clear ballistics blocks. Keep up the great vids! ✌️
I remember back in the day, them boolits was THE test to see if your pistol could run Hollerpoints or if you should just stick to hardball. After seein this gel test, that was kinda a pointless test! Hardball performance with a giant increase in possible Failures to Feed. Keep 'em Comin', Tools!!
True statement. My uncle was a Sheriff in a small, rural county from late '70s to early '90s and carried a Series 70 Colt Gov't Model .45ACP. It had non-throated barrel, (expensive and still uncommon then), and wouldn't run any HPs reliably. He loaded all hardball in the mags but kept one of these rounds in the pipe. It's funny to think of all the small ways people used to try to squeeze out any extra little performance edge when there were less options to work with than we are spoiled with today. It was also clear to me that experienced lawman knew what not to trust when ammo and sidearm options were much more limited and less standardized vs now. Practically every sheriff and deputy out there in West TX carried personally owned .45 autos or .357 revolvers until probably late '90s. You did not see much of anything else. Different world then.
I still have several boxes of them, a couple boxes of Silvertips, a couple boxes of HydraShocks and some boxes of original "Black Talons". We called the Speer the Flying Manhole, I've never heard the term Flying Ashtray. After 38 years I still carry a .45, now an STI DVC Omni, loaded with Critical Duty.
I used to reload those many years ago. Once I tried to make exploding bullets. Drilled out the cavity a little, put some fast burning powder in it topped with a LP primer. I'd single load them for safety. No idea if they ever worked. I never noticed any boom, LOL.
Very shortly after the first .22 short black powder blanks came out. Before the civil war mind you. People and companies stated putting the blanks in drilled out bullet tips. Later they were popular with buffalo hunters. They found they made buffalo drop rather than run after being shot. Bullets like that were also issued by both sides during the civil war. Not for shooting at people but for shooting at artillery limbers. Though they weren't popular with soldiers on either side who felt getting caught with them might lead to problems. Not to mention fears of ramming a muzzle loading projectile like that down a barrel.
I carried these, back in the day, and remember actually writing a letter to Speer complaining that the velocity was too low! I do not remember if they replied. Speer also offered that bullet as a reloading component. And I can tell you that they performed swimmingly on deer, hogs and the like. Especially if your handloads were "energetic"! :-) I believe that CCI continued to load that bullet in their Blazer line, in the 45 Colt cartridge, long after they discontinued it in 45 ACP. But I think they have now changed over to the Speer Gold Dot bullet in that load.
My edc is a .45 caliber Springfield 1911 Garrison 5” that has been customized by the Springfield Custom Shop. It’s good to know that hollow points have come a long way since these “flying ashtrays” were introduced. I carry Speer Gold Dot rounds in my pistol. Others may have different experiences but I’m happy with the performance of mine. The .45 definitely outperforms my 9mm.
That load will bounce off a decent mattress. I saw one of these expand once. It was fired into a Georgia red clay embankment with a CCI Large Pistol primer pressed into the hollow point.
This as my duty/carry round in the late 80’s and early 90’s. I had a 1911 customized by Wayne Novak ( Nova’s 45 Shop) set up for this round. It was one of the #2 street stopper according to Evan Marshall. In his book. I really wish it was still made.
If I remember correctly, the 230 grain Hydrashok was one of the top performers back then. The 185 grain Silvertip was another popular round. The 200 grain Flying Ashtray was definitely a popular choice for self defense.
@@DavidLLambertmobile Yes, Thats what I had to do to my Colts. Ramp and throat job. But a stock 1911 would just jam unless you bought the higher quality.
These same projectiles were loaded by Cor Bon to +P levels. I used this loading for deer hunting. First buck i harvested was at 15 yards, hitting him in the neck. Dropped right there with the bullet smashing through the spine C3 and lodging under skin on far side. Expansion was over 0.70" which is why it stayed in the neck.
Around 1980 as I recall a friend of my dads was carrying his lightweight Commander with those bullets hand-loaded to a 1,000 ft per second. Eventually ended up with some frame cracking as I recall
Agreed. Good test and commentary. Best thing was I guessed 900 fps out of the 5” barrel. Due to your method of determining speeds out of all the videos I have seen. Be safe. 😎⭐️🇺🇸😎
Tools - one of the beautiful things about modern times and GunTube - accountability for ammo manufacturing and marketing. Thanks again for putting in the work, Sir!!!
When my department switched from S&W model 59 to S&W645 this is the ammo we carried. I never had a feed issue when I qualified at the range. It seemed like a hot round back in the early 1980's.
I was wondering if you could test these but without the clothing? just shooting them right into the gel block, I know it's not tactical or scientific by any means, but I'm just wondering if they would even expand without that factor in place. Same goes for all the other "legends" like the hydrashocks or Those ones with the serrated edge, or even the hornady zombie series, and other rounds that you have tested that have failed, it would make for a good episode. Getting all those old legends into one place, and testing them right into plain gel. To see if any of them will even expand under the best of conditions. Maybe even firing some of them into a water trap.
Good video. This is from back in my day. That load had a good rep on the street. Looking at it from the front makes it look like a wadcutter. 900 fps was the stated velocity. I tested these with water jugs. It tore them open while the ball rounds just leaked out.
Back in the late 80's I was in the Army and had a Marlin Camp Carbine 45. I killed several deer with it. The CCI Lawman "Flying Ashtray" was my favorite load for that rifle.
Used to buy these factory loads at the local AXE Hardware store. Loved the way they shot in my one and only 1911 Colt. Expansion? Tried it on a big watermelon sitting on a cinder block at an 10-12 yds. My wife and kids were watching. Never imagined it would do much. I was very wrong! Very impressive. That would have been 1990.
Wow, never would have guessed that. I would think the cloth would have helped in expansion ? Not fast enough. Hey, thanks for the video and your time. Be blessed.
This was among the best expanders available back in the day, but your test gave the same results as we got in the late eighties early nineties firing through the PACT Model 1 and wet phone books. They did better loaded up hotter - that was sketchy in ACP but doable in 45 Colt (over 1100 in Blackhawk and Dan Wesson).
Legendary round, performing like how most legends turn out. But would still get the job done. I think feeding was a problem for many pistols with that honking cavity in the nose. I had someone tell me back in the day that he knew that many 45ACP HP's didn't expand, but it was still better than FMJ because a HP would "bite" and penetrate rather than skip or tumble unpredictably. I don't know if there's any truth to that.
I'd say they do tend to do that sometimes and often act like semi wadcutters, which cut more and cause a bit of a cavitation effect. Probably not a consistent or predictable effect though. I use hard cast semi-wadcutters in big bores loads on small to medium game. HP loads I used in the same guns, on same type of animals at similar ranges often had nearly identical straight line wound channels as the hard cast loads so the HPs probably didn't expand, but just bored through like the others. All were about equally effective, although this is just a few dozen animals from varmint to small deer/hog size so can't take too much from it.
I need to check inventory to see if I have any left. I’ve shot them before back in the day, definitely cool looking with the huge cavity. Thanks for the jelly test and bringing back memories Tools!
Cool test! You know me, and I love my 45. I have an old yellow colored box of the exact same stuff. I never used them because I figured this is what would happen. Plus, I like them for nostalgia. Be safe, my friend. Have fun.
I hand loaded some of these back in the late 80's (The bullets were sold as well under the Speer brand name). My Colt 1911 had a lot of feeding problems with the bullet profile, so I never used them again.
I loaded that Speer bullet in my Ruger 4 5/8 Blackhawk at about 1200 fps. It had to be nasty at that velocity. Still have a few. It also fed just fine in my 5" Series 70, but Richard Heinie had worked on the feed ramp and opened up the ejection port. Today, many 1911's come that way.
Welp nothin to say but i personally know people who have walked away from being hit with 22. 380 & 9mm. Never heard of anyone walking away from 45. 357. or 10mm. Ill fux wit it 🤷♂️. Nice test toolz!!!
Man great stuff as always from you. Just a suggestion for a video, I’d like to see the ballistic tests for the 357 magnum federal 180 grain power shock out of a lever action.
Bullet technology has definitely improved over the years. Thankfully there are plenty of reliable .45 acp options in the modern area. Put that cigarette out for sure.
Going back down memory lane, I had a box of Speer Lawman branded flying ashtrays (yellow box) purchased back in 1984 - purchased to have something "just in case" for my 1911. I probably burned them up on the range sometime in the 1990's. Gel test performance doesn't really surprise me - "Miami" happened in 1989, which led to development of the "FBI protocol", which led to Speer's development and introduction of the Gold Dot in 1991.
This was the load of choice back when I got my first 1911. But I had an occasional FTF so I switched to 185gr Winchester Silvertips for defense. Glad I didn't have to depend of them.
Great test. I always wanted this round in the day. I’d like to see it run without cloth just for a retro test. And I really want to see the 45 acp 200 grain +p gold dot. I have had good results out of my 5 inch HK. That’s kind of the modern replacement for the flying ashtray
Anyone else notice his Paul Harrel references? The high tech towel down there to catch it? Enough of a difference to make a difference? Anyone? Whatever, I'll give ya a sub JUST for that, Paul is TRULY LEGENDARY
I must admit I'm a little surprised. I handed loaded these decades ago and shot it into... Something. Water maybe. They expanded Huge like 3\4 inch. I was impressed. I never loaded them again because I thought they over expanded for penetration. I tried other hollow points wanting a little more balance. This was all before clothing barriers were a consideration. Still was a cool bullet.
I think the whole point of making modern pistol ammunition with a hollow point in the first place was for the purpose of a speed brake effect to make the rounds less likely to penetrate through a human body therefore conserving the energy for inside the target and minimizing potential threat to innocent bystanders. Although us as shooters like to see it in demos, I don't know that any medical experts have positively said that a hollow point bullet is more effective because of it's expansion which creates a wider secondary wound channel... I can't remember where I've heard it or read it but the jist of it was that standard defensive pistol loads don't create substantially different wound channels in real bodies so that you can't tell just by a wound channel whether the bullet was a 9mm or 45 acp.
I really Like your T Shirt, and I love your Rock Island .45. I am very glad you did a Ballistic test of these .45 rounds, always wondered about them. Wish i could find a lot of them. Oh well. Good video, Thanks.
CCI/Speer upgraded it to a 200 grain Gold Dot @ 1000 fps. Great load but it beat up Sig P220 pistols to death, among others. Speer sold a lot more 230 trainers which gave good expansion and penetration.
It would be interesting to take some of these and create your own version of f t x bullet. Fill the cavity with clear silicone and see if you could make them respond like a critical duty
Being 74 , I can remember when those rounds were considered the shit . I had some at one time , might even have a box stuck somewhere still . The crazy thing to me is , if it did this bad in a 1911 5" . WTH were they shooting it out of to make them think this stuff expanded ?!? No better than a FMJ like I had to carry in RVN . Great testing !
I carried these for a time, then we went to Hydrashok, then Gold Dot, . Somewhere along the way we used Hornady ? fmj with a trunkcated cone shape. Dont think we had any OIS with any of these in 45 acp. Then we went to 40 S&W 180 gr Gold Dot. Did have some OIS, and they worked well.
I like that you use the G30 in the .45 tests, because it gives me a great idea of performance for my XD-M Elite 3.8. Those old school rounds just are not impressive by todays standards. I think the Silvertips are the only old round, making a new name for itself. Can you test the Gold Dot 200 +P next ?
I think the best middle of the road price wise is hornady critical defense. I suggest at least a 4 inch barrel.I never seen any Great expansion from 45acp from less than a 4 inch barrel. I know there is better ammo than hornady critical defense in 45 acp but for budget friendly ammo I think it is pretty good . Big thumbs up 👍 great video as always
I was with the Houston Police Dept from 1964 to March of 1990. At some point in the mid-1970's, I was a Detective in the Burglary& Theft division. I carried a series 70 Colt 45 ACP. I had been handloading since 1965 and was carrying these bullets loaded over 7.2 grains of Unique. The bullets were marketed by Speer under their catalog #4477 as "Jacketed Magnum Hollow Points". I had loaded and fired several hundred of these before I carried them. Another Detective wanted me to load some and I only agreed to do so after he fired at least 50 rounds in his pistol. He carried a modified Colt National Match 45 ACP. His Colt had been tuned by one of the best gunsmiths in Texas. I loaded him the ammo and his gun fired and functioned 100%. As luck would have it, he walked into a robbery about three weeks later. He was in plain cloths, so the suspect didn't recognize him. The suspect turned away from him when his partner walked in, exposing his left side. Thw first officer drew his 45 and fired three fast shots. The first round struck about three inches above his waste, hitting the bottom of his rib cage and passed thru the bottom of his stomach being stopped by the rib cage on the other side. The second shot entered above the first, went thru the ribs and both lungs and was stopped by the other rib cage. The third shot was higher, went thru the rib cage hit the heart, stopped by the rig cage and slammed him into a wall. The medical examiner said he was dead when he hit the floor. After the autopsy, I got to examine the bullets. They were all at least 70 caliber. I still have one unopened box, and one partially used box of these rounds. They worked in this incident!
Donald Good to know they actually did do well in the field. Thanks...
Congratulations on surviving the craziness of HPD. Of course it wasn't as bad back then from what I hear. I can't imagine anybody wanting to work there now. Especially with the current political craziness going on.
Back in the early 70’s my grandfather carried a 38 special snub nose revolver. He used 38+p flat nose lead rounds. I used to watch him drill out the center of them and pie cut the edges with his straight razor. I was about 10 years old and curious. I asked him why he was doing it and he said that it would make them flare out and make a bigger hole. I never got to see if it worked but he swore by it. Growing up in bloody Harlan Kentucky I’m pretty sure he knew it was worth the effort.
That's super cool. Thx for sharing!
💥😎👊💥
My grandpa was from Harlan county and he did the same thing
The Flying Ashtray was my 1st LEO duty load in my 5" 45 acp in the late 80's and very early 90's. I still have a box or 2 of them.
About the only other options in 45 acp was the Winchester Silvertip & Federal HiShok. Then the Federal Hydra Shok and the infamous Black Talon from Winchester. The HydraShok replaced the CCI Lawman as my duty load and remained that until the HST came out and the remained my duty carry load until I retired in 2013 after 25 yrs.
Thanks for flashback.
Interesting stuff.😎👊
I had a similar career path and am a several years behind you, but started out with the Hydras, then HSTs in .45, then we went to .40s, again with HSTs, and now to 9mm with Hornady Critical Duty. Welcomed the .40s as they still hit hard and were easier to carry. Not a fan of the 9mm, as it's a step down and I shoot as well with the bigger calibers. I could insert a rant here, but I will refrain.
@bryangrote8781 many duty ammunition users: corrections, armed guards, sworn LE, state officers use Federal HST or Speer Gold Dot 2020s. I have 1 50rd box +P 230gr .45acp. HST. I use my Federal HST for .357sig too. Good ballistics.
Thanks for your service and sacrifice
Good test, Brian! The 200 gr "Flying Garbage Can" as we used to call them, were the bullet of choice to carry back in the bad old days. As has been mentioned, the idea was that they started out the same as an expanded 9mm. They very seldom worked unless you pulled the bullets and loaded them up 1000 or so FPS. Even then they sometimes (usually?) failed! They were not as good as many believed! Then again, getting shot with a ,45 cal bullet is seldom a good thing! I know guys who used razor blades to cut the skives deeper, which sort of worked but they just didn't expand very much. Also, there were a LOT of 1911's that simply wouldn't feed these huge hollow points, so that was another consideration. I haven't seen any of these bullets in many a year, mainly because they just don't work!
Cheers,
jc
Thank you sir.😎👊
Vintage box art needs to come back 🔥
Agreed.😎👊
Black Talon aka SXT, Ranger was popular for years. Winchester R&Ded Ranger One but you rarely see or hear about it 🚔 ....
AGREE - I collect 22 ammo and the see-thru orange and blue plastic boxes are awesome. I’ve got some rare green ones as well.
@@upholdthesecond92 I've wanted some vintage Whiz Bang stuff because of Bella Twin. I had some S&W ammo made in Rock Creek, Ohio and regret shooting it
Been helping my dad go through some old supplies lately (mostly 1950s -1970s) and had the same thought. CCI, Peters, (Remington,) & Western (Winchester) specifically had great looking boxes and logos.
I knew several LEOs who carried these in 5" 1911s back in the day. One in particular was a really cool Vietnam veteran who had the tactics and skill to compensate for lack of expansion. He said "it's 45 and it doesn't really matter if it expands since it starts out the same diameter a 9 expands to if you're lucky." This was in the mid '80s and the infamous FBI shootout was still fresh in everyone's mind.
Very true. Putting it in the right spot is key.
Platt Matix. Later, 1997 LAPD went to .45acp for patrol, D platoon-SWAT & SIS. 🕵🏻♂️ Cops wanted more 🥊 & zip. The 4506 .45acp was popular.
Penetration is often argued as the most important factor in handgun cartridge wounding potential outside the skill of the shooter. This was proven during the tests conducted on cadavers in the early 1900s. Also determined that nothing below a .45 with hot loading should be used in a defensive handgun.
@@1776goodfightit's a good thing firearm technology and modern ammo has advanced a tiny bit since the 1900s
Even regular 45auto FMJs are very effective against human assailants.
So far, the best of the old legendary bullets you've tested were the Remington and Federal 125gr SJHP for .357 Mag. It makes sense why those were renown back in the day. They still look incredible by today's standards.
Hard to screw up .357 Mag too bad.😎👊
Thank goodness for development over the decades to make better rounds. The FT.lbs were also pretty low. Might not have opened, but still would do the trick being a big projectile. Thanks to the guy who sent these in!
Cool stuff.😎👊
What REALLY impressed me was that both your pistols fed the "Flying Ashtrays" without having to first polish their feed ramps. Back when those rounds were used by Law Enforcement (in both Colt's 1911s and Smiths chambered in .45ACP) it was pretty much a given that the feed ramps would require a fine level of polishing in those types of pistols. As good as the Lawman series was, I still think the (original) Cor Bon loading with its 200grnish "Flying Ashtray" was utilized by any number of Law Enforcement agencies. Those Cor Bon rounds were HOT in the high +p or possibly even +p+ range. I wish I still had the two boxes I held onto until around 2004 when I fired them out of my then P-90 Ruger service pistol. Even in 2004 those nearly 20-year-old rounds were barn burners sure enough!
Takes me back to the day Hat Man! We all wanted the " flying ashtray" as our carry round .
💥😎👊💥
I carried this exact load in a 4506 when I first became a police officer in 1990. Switched to Black Talons and Gold Dots at some point and various other loads over the years.
Nice. Appreciate ya!😎👊
That bullet loaded to +P pressures by Cor-bon was a wicked bowling pin killer back in the 90s.
LOL. Yeah, I carried those in a concealed 1991A1 Officer's model. Those were the days.
I still have some CorBon but the 400 .40 caliber round. I keep a Para Hi cap 1911 clone that I assembled from scratch from high end parts and it is custom fitted with both .45 and a 400 CorBon barrels that utilize the same bushing but each have their own lock up links and both fitted to a NOS WWII Remington GI slide. Shoots spot on and I can select if I want to go suppressed with the .45 or full bore .40.
You called It correctly, I'm curious to see how they wound do with just a tee-shirt, or bare jelly, Thank's to Mike and you for this test, I'm looking forward to the next test, you are the most comprehensive on these tests period, Have a safe & fun weekend, BTW, I just realized that I've had these tools for 60-years! 👍🇺🇸
Thank you sir. I will have to give em credit for the cool packaging.😎👊
Seriously, do the bare jelly. It's compulsory at this point. You can't show what you showed and not give us the satisfaction of seeing what the round is capable of without that hindrance. Let us see it open!..
Shout out to Mike. I love seeing the old stuff. Great video as always, Tools.
Thanks!
Thank you sir. Appreciate the heck outta that!😎👊
THANK YOU! I have looked high and low for ballistic information and modern testing results on these and, like you, turned up zilch. I've wanted to see how they stack up for years and now I know. LOL.
Yep, testing back then did not include heavy clothing barriers. Just water or just gel.
I was just starting out my LE career when I got my first 1911 (a Llama ... don't judge I was young and poor) and though it was quite an investment for me then, I procured a box of these "flying ashtrays" because the gunrag gurus were all insisting it was the best option. Honestly, back then it WAS the best option. Amazingly, that old Llama fed them well. I only toted it a few times when playing reserve but later carried those same rounds in my SIG P220 that I bought right after being sworn in. It fed them and liked them. Alas, they are long gone and like you, I have a heck of a time finding any more (and the price makes me less inclined to buy them just to shoot for memory's sake). I suspect in my semi-tropical, Gulf Coast environment where a light t-shirt is usually the dress code of the day, these might work okay. Certainly no worse than hardball in any case. And like you said, heck, they start out .45" and 200 grains. Thanks again!
Nice. I'm really not even mad these didn't expand. Still a cool old round to test out.😎👊
I too carried the 200gr. flying ashtray, but in my early Leo days I used two S&W 45 revolvers w/bbls cut to 4" and industrial hard chromed. One for carry and one for backup if the other went down. For these revolvers we were allowed to carry what we loaded so I used 45 Auto Rim brass which is much stronger and velocity was about 1180 fps with Herco powder. Carried those for years, but not the regular factory loading which I figured wouldn't expand well.
Similar to my Depat. issue when I carried my 1911 back in the 80's. The CCI Lawmen ammo was not the same however. our velocities were 1,000fps + out a 5". Good test though. I have some old 9BPLE 9mm that we used to carry as well. Could send some if ya want.
That 9BPLE is good stuff. I have a test of that on here.😎👊
@@ToolsandTargets Cool. I will look. Still carry it today along with HST!
Old skool heavy metal !
I bought some surplus 7.62x39 head stamp 1987 , seems to shoot well as I used it to sight in. Thanks for blast from the past !
Man, I had high hopes for this ammo non the less another great Friday video.
Knowledge is a good thing.
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A long time ago I bought those and carried them in a Browning BDA 45 (West German Sig P220). It was the only one of 45 ACP pistols I owned that would reliably feed it. I'm surprised your 1911 fed them reliably, neither of my Colt 70 Series would.
Some other folks mentioned that too.
i like how you show side by side comparison data of most commonly used barrel lengths, loads, different manufacturers, velocity, ft/lb, standard deviations, etc …all using clear ballistics blocks. Keep up the great vids!
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I remember back in the day, them boolits was THE test to see if your pistol could run Hollerpoints or if you should just stick to hardball. After seein this gel test, that was kinda a pointless test! Hardball performance with a giant increase in possible Failures to Feed. Keep 'em Comin', Tools!!
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True statement. My uncle was a Sheriff in a small, rural county from late '70s to early '90s and carried a Series 70 Colt Gov't Model .45ACP. It had non-throated barrel, (expensive and still uncommon then), and wouldn't run any HPs reliably. He loaded all hardball in the mags but kept one of these rounds in the pipe. It's funny to think of all the small ways people used to try to squeeze out any extra little performance edge when there were less options to work with than we are spoiled with today. It was also clear to me that experienced lawman knew what not to trust when ammo and sidearm options were much more limited and less standardized vs now. Practically every sheriff and deputy out there in West TX carried personally owned .45 autos or .357 revolvers until probably late '90s. You did not see much of anything else. Different world then.
Would have liked to see a sample without the denim
Might have to do a follow-up.
@@ToolsandTargets Awesome, thank you
Head shots don’t have denim lol
Of course I'm gonna click and watch. This channel is like a shot of whiskey after a long cold productive day. Thx brother!
😂 Appreciate that, brother!😎👊
Cool channel, I appreciate the testing you do. I had no idea so many .45 HPs were having issues expanding.
I still have several boxes of them, a couple boxes of Silvertips, a couple boxes of HydraShocks and some boxes of original "Black Talons". We called the Speer the Flying Manhole, I've never heard the term Flying Ashtray.
After 38 years I still carry a .45, now an STI DVC Omni, loaded with Critical Duty.
Rock Island 1911 looking nice ❤️
The grips definitely dress it up.😎👊
I used to reload those many years ago. Once I tried to make exploding bullets. Drilled out the cavity a little, put some fast burning powder in it topped with a LP primer. I'd single load them for safety. No idea if they ever worked. I never noticed any boom, LOL.
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Some put .22 blanks in the nose. Like you, I never heard an extra bang or noticed much difference.
Very shortly after the first .22 short black powder blanks came out. Before the civil war mind you. People and companies stated putting the blanks in drilled out bullet tips.
Later they were popular with buffalo hunters. They found they made buffalo drop rather than run after being shot.
Bullets like that were also issued by both sides during the civil war. Not for shooting at people but for shooting at artillery limbers. Though they weren't popular with soldiers on either side who felt getting caught with them might lead to problems. Not to mention fears of ramming a muzzle loading projectile like that down a barrel.
I carried these, back in the day, and remember actually writing a letter to Speer complaining that the velocity was too low! I do not remember if they replied. Speer also offered that bullet as a reloading component. And I can tell you that they performed swimmingly on deer, hogs and the like. Especially if your handloads were "energetic"! :-)
I believe that CCI continued to load that bullet in their Blazer line, in the 45 Colt cartridge, long after they discontinued it in 45 ACP. But I think they have now changed over to the Speer Gold Dot bullet in that load.
🎯28 CCI Lawman had a 200grain wadcutter which was perfect for Training and Self Defence.
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My edc is a .45 caliber Springfield 1911 Garrison 5” that has been customized by the Springfield Custom Shop. It’s good to know that hollow points have come a long way since these “flying ashtrays” were introduced. I carry Speer Gold Dot rounds in my pistol. Others may have different experiences but I’m happy with the performance of mine. The .45 definitely outperforms my 9mm.
A great demonstration for old hollow point design and how things have changed and just how important that denim test is. Great stuff
Outstanding. I still have plenty of these on hand. 1000 fps hand loads, but has the lead changed characteristic due to age. Thank you
Thank you sir.😎👊
This brings back memories. Back in the early 1980's a Star PD loaded with flying ashtrays was the hot gunfighter setup. A lot has changed since then.
Never used this ammo before and believe i wil stay with my Hornady ...good one Tools
Thank you sir.😎👊
Thanks Tools, ...Reputation is no substitute for personal experience.
Facts 😎👊
That is a definite blast from the past. I actually have a box of SpeerLawman 9 mm, same blue box, from back in the early 90s.
Love the old blast from the past ammo vids! Thanks for the nostalgia Tools!
I’m the firmest believer in “They all fall to Ball”.
Back in the 1980's reloaders strove to get 1000fps to attempt proper expansion from this bullet. Today there are better choices available in 45ACP
Very Nice As Always! Thank You Man for all that you do! 🤙🤛🤛
Appreciate that.😎👊
That load will bounce off a decent mattress. I saw one of these expand once. It was fired into a Georgia red clay embankment with a CCI Large Pistol primer pressed into the hollow point.
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This as my duty/carry round in the late 80’s and early 90’s. I had a 1911 customized by Wayne Novak ( Nova’s 45 Shop) set up for this round. It was one of the #2 street stopper according to Evan Marshall. In his book. I really wish it was still made.
Big chunk of lead.😎👊
If I remember correctly, the 230 grain Hydrashok was one of the top performers back then. The 185 grain Silvertip was another popular round. The 200 grain Flying Ashtray was definitely a popular choice for self defense.
Massad Ayoob, use of force trainer, hunter, reserve LE officer said the 200gr Speer +P JHP was good.
@@DavidLLambertmobileI got trained by Mas Ayoob in the 80's. This was his #1 choice for .45ACP . Provided it fed reliably.
The older military or cheaper 1911s would jam a lot on those.
I can believe it. Big ol opening.
No kidding. Military.45 in or around 1982 that stuff was a jamomattick
Author & reserve Capt 🚔 Massad Ayoob suggested cops, users buy .45acp throated barrels. Gun smiths.
@ I carry .357 Sig now most of the time on duty
@@DavidLLambertmobile Yes, Thats what I had to do to my Colts. Ramp and throat job. But a stock 1911 would just jam unless you bought the higher quality.
Would be interesting to see the performance on bare gel.
Not a bad idea actually. This is one I would be curious about.
These same projectiles were loaded by Cor Bon to +P levels. I used this loading for deer hunting. First buck i harvested was at 15 yards, hitting him in the neck. Dropped right there with the bullet smashing through the spine C3 and lodging under skin on far side.
Expansion was over 0.70" which is why it stayed in the neck.
Around 1980 as I recall a friend of my dads was carrying his lightweight Commander with those bullets hand-loaded to a 1,000 ft per second. Eventually ended up with some frame cracking as I recall
Agreed. Good test and commentary. Best thing was I guessed 900 fps out of the 5” barrel. Due to your method of determining speeds out of all the videos I have seen. Be safe. 😎⭐️🇺🇸😎
You’re the man Tools. Keep em coming bro.
Tools - one of the beautiful things about modern times and GunTube - accountability for ammo manufacturing and marketing. Thanks again for putting in the work, Sir!!!
Appreciate that!😎👊
In the late 80s I carried these CCI HPs in my 1911 I still have some here. I carry old CCI lawman 357mag 140gr JHPs in my Ruger sp101 now.
When my department switched from S&W model 59 to S&W645 this is the ammo we carried. I never had a feed issue when I qualified at the range. It seemed like a hot round back in the early 1980's.
I was wondering if you could test these but without the clothing? just shooting them right into the gel block, I know it's not tactical or scientific by any means, but I'm just wondering if they would even expand without that factor in place. Same goes for all the other "legends" like the hydrashocks or Those ones with the serrated edge, or even the hornady zombie series, and other rounds that you have tested that have failed, it would make for a good episode. Getting all those old legends into one place, and testing them right into plain gel. To see if any of them will even expand under the best of conditions. Maybe even firing some of them into a water trap.
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Nice test Tools of a classic round. 👍
Good video.
This is from back in my day. That load had a good rep on the street. Looking at it from the front makes it look like a wadcutter. 900 fps was the stated velocity. I tested these with water jugs. It tore them open while the ball rounds just leaked out.
Perhaps the legendary flying ashtray was only field tested on naked perps that didn't clog the hollow point cavity!
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Back in the late 80's I was in the Army and had a Marlin Camp Carbine 45. I killed several deer with it. The CCI Lawman "Flying Ashtray" was my favorite load for that rifle.
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A carbine sure could take the velocity to the next level.
Used to buy these factory loads at the local AXE Hardware store. Loved the way they shot in my one and only 1911 Colt. Expansion? Tried it on a big watermelon sitting on a cinder block at an 10-12 yds. My wife and kids were watching. Never imagined it would do much. I was very wrong! Very impressive. That would have been 1990.
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Wow, never would have guessed that. I would think the cloth would have helped in expansion ? Not fast enough. Hey, thanks for the video and your time. Be blessed.
This was among the best expanders available back in the day, but your test gave the same results as we got in the late eighties early nineties firing through the PACT Model 1 and wet phone books. They did better loaded up hotter - that was sketchy in ACP but doable in 45 Colt (over 1100 in Blackhawk and Dan Wesson).
Nice.🔥😎🔥
Great test, Tools. Always interesting and entertaining. Thanks.
Keep them mags loaded.
Thank you sir.😎👊
The HST .45 +p video sold me that stuff is true bullet technology.
They must have R&D tested these in water.
Great test! Very cool!👍👊 Thanks TNT!
I guess with all the hippies runnin around half naked back then, they were a good option.🤭
👍👍Thanks Tools, I always enjoy your test. Another legendary round that really shouldn’t be.
Haven't seen them for years. They fed better in more pistols than I expected.
Legendary round, performing like how most legends turn out. But would still get the job done. I think feeding was a problem for many pistols with that honking cavity in the nose. I had someone tell me back in the day that he knew that many 45ACP HP's didn't expand, but it was still better than FMJ because a HP would "bite" and penetrate rather than skip or tumble unpredictably. I don't know if there's any truth to that.
I saw a few other people mention feeding issues.
I'd say they do tend to do that sometimes and often act like semi wadcutters, which cut more and cause a bit of a cavitation effect. Probably not a consistent or predictable effect though. I use hard cast semi-wadcutters in big bores loads on small to medium game. HP loads I used in the same guns, on same type of animals at similar ranges often had nearly identical straight line wound channels as the hard cast loads so the HPs probably didn't expand, but just bored through like the others. All were about equally effective, although this is just a few dozen animals from varmint to small deer/hog size so can't take too much from it.
I need to check inventory to see if I have any left. I’ve shot them before back in the day, definitely cool looking with the huge cavity. Thanks for the jelly test and bringing back memories Tools!
Cool test! You know me, and I love my 45. I have an old yellow colored box of the exact same stuff. I never used them because I figured this is what would happen. Plus, I like them for nostalgia. Be safe, my friend. Have fun.
Yeah, I almost hate running these old rounds that are full sealed boxes.😆
Always bringing the heat T&T. Thanks for always kicking ass.
Appreciate ya!😎👊
I hand loaded some of these back in the late 80's (The bullets were sold as well under the Speer brand name). My Colt 1911 had a lot of feeding problems with the bullet profile, so I never used them again.
The fact that 45 doesn't shrink is a little consolation but very little. Appreciate the test. Stay safe.
"Double disappointment" is just about right , well said ! I don't know of any 200gr. .45acps' that do well in gel . Great video T&T , thanks !
I loaded that Speer bullet in my Ruger 4 5/8 Blackhawk at about 1200 fps. It had to be nasty at that velocity. Still have a few. It also fed just fine in my 5" Series 70, but Richard Heinie had worked on the feed ramp and opened up the ejection port. Today, many 1911's come that way.
Welp nothin to say but i personally know people who have walked away from being hit with 22. 380 & 9mm. Never heard of anyone walking away from 45. 357. or 10mm. Ill fux wit it 🤷♂️. Nice test toolz!!!
Thank you sir.😎👊
Man great stuff as always from you. Just a suggestion for a video, I’d like to see the ballistic tests for the 357 magnum federal 180 grain power shock out of a lever action.
Man this was neat! Shooting vintage ammo is an experience. I mean these were a let down but still cool.
Try the Speer Lawman 200 grain 45 acp +p. Awesome loading
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T&T can you test some liberty 105 grain vs 111 grindhard
Bullet technology has definitely improved over the years. Thankfully there are plenty of reliable .45 acp options in the modern area. Put that cigarette out for sure.
I think I remember hearing about these rounds during the Ed Sanow/one shot stops writing in the early 90’s.
Going back down memory lane, I had a box of Speer Lawman branded flying ashtrays (yellow box) purchased back in 1984 - purchased to have something "just in case" for my 1911. I probably burned them up on the range sometime in the 1990's. Gel test performance doesn't really surprise me - "Miami" happened in 1989, which led to development of the "FBI protocol", which led to Speer's development and introduction of the Gold Dot in 1991.
This was the load of choice back when I got my first 1911. But I had an occasional FTF so I switched to 185gr Winchester Silvertips for defense. Glad I didn't have to depend of them.
Love these classic ammo reviews. I have some old Western Ammo, that has a similar (the same?) flying ashtray style.
Nice. I know I've tested some .44 that's the same style too.
Great test. I always wanted this round in the day. I’d like to see it run without cloth just for a retro test. And I really want to see the 45 acp 200 grain +p gold dot. I have had good results out of my 5 inch HK. That’s kind of the modern replacement for the flying ashtray
Where did you get that handle for your Rock Island? Love the design!
Anyone else notice his Paul Harrel references? The high tech towel down there to catch it? Enough of a difference to make a difference? Anyone? Whatever, I'll give ya a sub JUST for that, Paul is TRULY LEGENDARY
I must admit I'm a little surprised. I handed loaded these decades ago and shot it into... Something. Water maybe. They expanded Huge like 3\4 inch. I was impressed. I never loaded them again because I thought they over expanded for penetration. I tried other hollow points wanting a little more balance. This was all before clothing barriers were a consideration. Still was a cool bullet.
I think the whole point of making modern pistol ammunition with a hollow point in the first place was for the purpose of a speed brake effect to make the rounds less likely to penetrate through a human body therefore conserving the energy for inside the target and minimizing potential threat to innocent bystanders. Although us as shooters like to see it in demos, I don't know that any medical experts have positively said that a hollow point bullet is more effective because of it's expansion which creates a wider secondary wound channel... I can't remember where I've heard it or read it but the jist of it was that standard defensive pistol loads don't create substantially different wound channels in real bodies so that you can't tell just by a wound channel whether the bullet was a 9mm or 45 acp.
I really Like your T Shirt, and I love your Rock Island .45. I am very glad you did a Ballistic test of these .45 rounds, always wondered about them. Wish i could find a lot of them. Oh well. Good video, Thanks.
Appreciate that.😎👊
Thank you Mike!
CCI/Speer upgraded it to a 200 grain Gold Dot @ 1000 fps. Great load but it beat up Sig P220 pistols to death, among others. Speer sold a lot more 230 trainers which gave good expansion and penetration.
It would be interesting to take some of these and create your own version of f t x bullet. Fill the cavity with clear silicone and see if you could make them respond like a critical duty
Being 74 , I can remember when those rounds were considered the shit . I had some at one time , might even have a box stuck somewhere still . The crazy thing to me is , if it did this bad in a 1911 5" . WTH were they shooting it out of to make them think this stuff expanded ?!? No better than a FMJ like I had to carry in RVN . Great testing !
I carried these for a time, then we went to Hydrashok, then Gold Dot, . Somewhere along the way we used Hornady ? fmj with a trunkcated cone shape. Dont think we had any OIS with any of these in 45 acp. Then we went to 40 S&W 180 gr Gold Dot. Did have some OIS, and they worked well.
Sad no expansion
I like that you use the G30 in the .45 tests, because it gives me a great idea of performance for my XD-M Elite 3.8.
Those old school rounds just are not impressive by todays standards. I think the Silvertips are the only old round, making a new name for itself. Can you test the Gold Dot 200 +P next ?
I'll see if have those, or grab some if I don't.😎👍
@ToolsandTargets I can send you some if it's easier.
I carried this round on duty. We loved it.
Man I watch way way to much YT great video keep it up man🇺🇸👍🏼
I think the best middle of the road price wise is hornady critical defense. I suggest at least a 4 inch barrel.I never seen any Great expansion from 45acp from less than a 4 inch barrel.
I know there is better ammo than hornady critical defense in 45 acp but for budget friendly ammo I think it is pretty good . Big thumbs up 👍 great video as always
Very cool , haven't seen those is yrs and yrs
Definitely some cool old stuff.