Is Leica Q3 really the same as 28 lux on M11 & M7?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 ก.ค. 2024
- This is a long video but we felt it is compulsory to do a detailed comparison. Feel free to pause, skip, or fast forward using the chapters below:
In this video we decided to perform a comparison between Q3 vs M11 / M7 with the Summilux -M 28mm 1.4 ASPH.
Since M11 and Q3 have the same sensor specs and is rumoured to be the same, and the 28mm summilux-M is in the same “Lux” class as the Q3, they should be the same right? Or are they different?
We added a M7 and shot it with Kodak Gold so you can see how the 28 Lux Len’s renders on film when isolated away from M11 digital sensor. This adds another layer of discussion when we compare it to Q3.
Chapters:
0:00 - Intro
1:00 - Q3 vs M11 @Infinity
6:00 - Q3 vs M11 @ 2meters
12:00 - Color fringe
14:00 - Depth of Field
18:00 - Q3 vs M11 @ 1meter
22:00 - Q3 vs M11 Color rendering
33:00 - Q3 vs M11 Summary
34:00 - Q3 vs M7 ( Kodak Gold)
43:00 - Closing remarks
50:00 - SURPRISE
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4:44 There's something wrong with your lens on the M11. Need to get it serviced or returned if new because that image shows it's out of alignment. Also, the leica Q range has much more onboard image processing dedicated specifically to the lens than M11 for apparent reasons. If you saw the image from a Q-range camera (the optics are essentially the same from Q to Q2 to Q3) before all the processing you would know that the lens itself is missing elements that could make it a stand-alone lens. It's pretty much 2/3rds the standalone with soft vignetting and distortion that is handled by camera processor.
Thanks so much for the comparison. I didn't expect such huge differences between the m11 and the q3 tbh.
Yea on paper they are very similar: as if it is almost the same sensor. The M lux is a very different Lens to the Q2 and we pointed this out in our last video before Q3 came.
Good video guys! Is there any chance you release for download those comparison shots so we can play and check them at home?
This is one of the best comparisons I have seen. It is also very meaningful to me as an M shooter. I will be getting a Q3 or Q3 M. Thanks!
Thank you for the kind words!
I want to just mention that green/yellow tint, as well as contrast, are not only due to the sensors but also to the lens coatings. The summilux-m is definitely a super contrasty lens. My favorite to use on the M10M
I think we have demonstrated the effect of the lens on the M7 film. It’s a great lens and just love the organic pop despite it is not as sharp as Q3. Leica glass is well known for not having sharpness but still great the 3D effect. Truly great equipment I say!
guys loving your work and effort you've been putting on this channel. Being a Sony shooter for 10 years and 2 years in Leica system Q2, Q3, M11, Leica is not about sharpness or lenses perfection. Still don't understand their reasoning behind their prices (Video coming to my channel) but the Q3 28 Summilux was designed for a digital camera and that is the main difference, leica has not updated their film lens optical formula for digital high res camera and that's the issue with the M System. Leica needs to design new lenses for the M digital system rather than continue to rehouse their older film lenses. Also the softness around he edges of the image has to do with how small some lenses are and the excessive curvature of their elements. My Leica 50mm F2 APO that costs near 10K produces an image similar to a $300 sony lens when comparing the image quality and performance. The amount of CA and Halation that you get even with top tier Leica lenses like the APOs is something that doesn't happen in digital lenses that cost just a couple of hundreds. But I love the M11 because it's all about the character of the image rather than clinical perfection.
Keep it up.
I think Leica designed their Lux ASPH with digital sensor in mind. Their latest FLE II for 50 and 35 is made for M11 (utilise the 60mp high res). The optical formula is the same as FLE I, which is different to pre-A versions back in the film days. So I am not so sure about them not updating their optical formula for digital sensors. Mind you they are also one of the earlier brands that started Mirrorless (if defined without a mirror). M9 is their first full frame sensor camera in 2009. So lenses that came after can safely be assumed to be made for digital sensor. This includes the 28 Lux. For M production lines - Leica has the Lux asph which keeps the smooth creamy character from the past on purpose Vs APO ASPH which is clinically modern but small in form factor. Their pinnacle achievement in optics is SL APO ASPH primes. I don’t know if q3 uses APO ASPH elements but it is made with a modern sharp look in mind: which between you and me, is not that hard to manufacture in modern day standards. I mean… sigma has made the sharpest lenses for cheap. And they are part of the L alliance…Wink wink.
Thanks for sharing. Informative. I’ve owned M’s and Q’s and can relate. These are truly different systems. The Q is better for ease of use and the lens have more capabilities than the Summilux-M 28. However, in terms of equipment longevity and image rendering, the Lux28 has more of that Leica magic. Because there are many times I like to focus closer than 0.7m on a 28mm focal length (and even better that the Q is indeed more a 26mm), if choosing between the two, the Q is my preferred tool.
(JB here) Q is my first Leica and I have tried briefly M line, for me the versatility of the Q (macro and crop modes ) really makes it my preferred tool as well among the Leica lines.
How do we know whether the M11 sharpness test was done with a calibrated lens? Or was it done checking focus with EVF?
Checked with live view.
Thank you gents! Helpful video. Can't wait for my Q3.
You welcome. It’s a great camera. Very unique in the leica line up.
Hey guys, great comparison. I currently have the m11 with a 50mm APO and was wondering what you guys would think produces more resolution. I was genuinely surprised how much sharper the Q3 was. For some of my upcoming work, I am looking to have the most resolution (printing large) I can get in a compact size, I would have thought it was the M11. Thoughts? Thanks in advance!
Thank you! We were also not expecting such a difference at infinity. To your question the APO should provide a much better sharpness at infinity compared to the summilux-m 28mm. One thing to note is that if your work is with a subject close to you then the difference we saw is almost non existent.
@@threeamigoshk Thanks for your response, I actually meant M11 50mm APO VS the new Q3. It almost seem like the Q3 could be producing more resolution?
We could test it out for you and get back! but my view is resolution wise is same between them, I feel in our test what limited the sharpness was the 28mm lens used on the m11.
@@threeamigoshk That makes since because I thought the sensor was the same or at least close. I appreciate you saying you would test it, no need! However it would be interesting to see how it lives up to the APO lenses 😂
@Weston James Palmer yea sadly Leica don’t have a 28mm APO for M. They do for SL but that is a different matter. Those APO SL are leica reference Lens. We could do a 50 APO easily but it’s not a fair test due to the difference in focals.
Love your efforts and good luck on this channel! Does Leica also make a hood for that heavy duty Brass round hood on the Q? I just received one and realized there's no cap for it.
From what I know, they don't , although would look quite slick 😁
interesting video thanks ! I would love to be aable to download the dng's to see the more 3d pop of the M11 on my screen . would you mind sharing them please ? I always thought M photos have a slightly more artistic rendering while Q render more as we "see the reality " . even more so when I got my Q2 compared to my Q. thanks
I am not sure, but I am wondering if your copy of 28 lux M has some issue with infinity focus. Result seems quite blurrier than what I saw on other reviews.
Hmm our photos on the trees (not infinity) also has the same finding. So I don’t think it is the infinity focus issue but what you get at wide open. What other reviewers do for infinity focus is they down to 5.6 which produce the best MTF performance. To be fair this is what landscape photographers do. Reddot did that recently in the comparison with Q3 also and it is comparable.
I want the Q3 because with the new tilt screen I can walk on the street and compose pictures without drawing so much attention to me. Great video guys
Exactly the same for me, for street the tilt screen is extremely handy. Thank you for the support!
The tilt is far better (than a side hinged screen) for everything, not just street.
oh for sure, is just I used it mainly for street and found it quite handy 🙂not that it ia only handy for streets
Could you make the same comparison of the same lake lens on sl2 vs m11, is there a 3D effect in the m11 matrix or is it all about glass?
Glass. I even tried 28 Lux M on GFX.
@@threeamigoshk
Can you make comparison videos?
@@ggdfggdfgdffgfddg34 ok! Will try it on a Canon R3 also.
Were you using the same shutter speed? In the sharpness photo the M11 looks more exposed in comparison suggesting a slower shutter speed and hence more likely to blur at 200%
Is the Q3 a full or Panasonic Leica collab?
Wonderful opportunity….I am interested - so interested in buying a Q3!!:)
Subscribe and stay tuned! We will publish a video in coming ~week describing the process!
How did you focus on infinity? Important to note that some lenses go 'past infinity' in their range. One way to ensure this would not impact results is to focus on a far away object, instead of relying on the distance scale?
Yup we aimed at the furthest landscape through the range finder. What is interesting is that we focused on the tree and saw that the leaves were sharper on Q3 still. To be fair the best sharpness for the 28 Lux M is around f5.6 up: just didn’t expect the performance on the Q3 Lens to be that good wide open.
Is shooting all day on f/1.7 considered bad or should it only be considered when doing portraits or working in low light?
Depends what sort of photos you want. I feel that in modern cameras having a high useable ISO makes the old saying of “large aperture for low light” obsolete. If you enjoy the shallow DOF in your photos than you can shoot wide open all day and together with the electronic shutter you are able to do so without ND filters. But if you want details like for landscape then f5.6 seems to be the sweet spot for a leica lenses, including 28Lux M. So it depends on you. In this video we showed that wide open still could get details in Q3 but not for M.
JB here - I tend to shoot wide open when I want to make the subject pop from the background or due to low light, although for some portraits I might even do 2.8 as well. During day time, say street photography I will bump up the aperture up to F4 in order capture as much details as I can in that frame
@@threeamigoshk the reason I ask is that I was just watching some videos on TH-cam from luminous landscape where they interviewed Leica officials and one official from Leica actually said they want people to photograph at F1 .7 widest aperture to achieve the Leica look.
@@walkingmanvideo9455 yea this “leica look” is rather vague definition. Leica didn’t come out with a standard or meaning for this. As a M/SL/Q user I honestly can’t see any “Leica look” in Q. M glass has a signature that makes you recognise it is Leica (if that is even the definition) but even within M - their APO don’t have it as much. Stepping back - shooting wide open even focusing at infinity will produce a different type of rendering, typically softer peripherals and a bit of vignetting. This applies to all lenses of all brands. If that’s what “leica look” is then shoot wide open. But objectively - this does not have the best optical performance. MTF charts always suggest the sweet spot at f5.6 for that.
JB here -Leica looks is rather abstract definition, but some will argue Q doesn't give the "look" like M glasses do, although I feel it is the same (if you see from the conparison on this video) Maybe the M glass as a tad higher contrast. 1.7 will give you the most "pop" due to the DOF and the separation of the subject but I personally wouldn't shoot wide open all the time (Q is also very sharp and as you step the aperture the amount of detals you get is great)
I think it might have been a better comparison to view all images using each camera’s Embedded raw profiles in Lightroom, vs. the Adobe color profiles. I own the Q2 and the Embedded Raw profile is light years better than the Adobe profile. If you don’t know how to find it, let me know 🙂
Happy to try this! if my understanding is correct you are talking about grabbing the embedded raw profile when shooting jpeg? Or you mean to use the M11 /Q3 profile in LR? The logic for us was that if Q3 and M11 are supposedly having same sensor and the 28MM summilux M is the same optics as Q lens, then we shouldn't see much of a difference when shooting in raw as long we select equal profile to both pics.
@@threeamigoshk I find that Adobe's raw profiles can differ from camera to camera, whereas the OEM's raw file shows you what the manufacturer intended in terms of basic output... I find this on my Nikon cameras as well.
The Adobe profiles are developed camera to camera and don't seem to apply a consistent formula or attempt to achieve a consistent output.
For the Q2, the manufacturer profile doesn't come up as an option in the develop module automatically. Instead, you have to go to choose Browse setting in the Develop Module's Profile dropdown menu, and select Legacy to enable the Embedded colour and B&W colour profiles. My experience has been that colours become much more accurate and pleasing using the embedded profiles while editing Raw files... in particular, the base skin tones are much more easy to work with than Adobe's profiles.
Looks like m11 has pretty bad color white balance, the reds and greens are pretty off, when you removed the magenta on the skin tone, he unfortunately started to look greenish in skin tone. Wonder if you increased the dynamic range and/or saturation on the Q3 if it gives you a similar look. Was very surprised I didn’t like the colors on the m11, does have deeper saturation in shadows and highlights but colors look so unnatural. I’d go with the Q3. I think the depth of field has to do with the Q3 being more of a 26mm then true 28mm.
It is quite interesting as we ensure to set the WB on both cameras and still the colors come off with that kind of difference.
This is the first review I have seen saying that the Q3 is sharper than the 28 lux. Actually they said only the 28 APO SL is sharper than the 28 lux.
Do you think there can be some motion blur? Maybe a bit small camera shake? Were you using a tripod? Coz the Q3 lens is stabilized but in the M11 body and lens are not
Wide open M lenses are not sharp. The MTFs doesn’t support the idea that M is sharp at 1.4 objectively. The photos from M did not seem to be motion blur. We used a tripod and the shutter speed isn’t slow. In retrospect for detailed image 28 Lux M should be shot at 5.6. The red dot forum on Q3 did a image comparison (not infinity though) between 28 Lux and Q3 at f5.6. Josh shot the shelf of camera bags in their shop. You can have a look. We will be very interested to see how APO 28 SL does compared to Q3 in future. Not easy to find someone to lend us though and we are not sponsored.
We also didn't expect, you can see from our tests we tested twice the infinity focus and both times Q3 was sharper ( all shots were on a tripod and it was not windy as well, we also waited sometime before pressing the shutter button after placing it on a tripod). Note that when focusing on a subject closer to the camera the sharpness between them is pretty much identical.
@@threeamigoshk this is very interesting to hear. Honestly I was disapointed after watching the whole Q3 red dot forum episode. I use the SL system and I am looking for a smaller combo for family days. Q3 seems like the right call but after seeing RDF I thought to get the M11 instead. Now your video leaves me more confused 😀😀 Maybe Leica gear is not exact anymore and a copy can give different results from another copy… could be. I also have heard few times recently that getting sharp images with the M11 is challenging… high resolution, no IBIS… who knows. Seems like I will go for the Q3 ☺️
@@threeamigoshk and thanks for your clear explanation! Cheers from Sai Kung
@@edgarsanuybarahona7656 no problem! I been loving the Q3 for family stuff. Took it to Osaka and the AF just made it easier. Although the photos do not have that “Leica look” that you get from M: the Q3 Leica preset is great if you can’t be bothered to edit and just want nice looking JPG for social media and family WhatsApp. If you use SL with SL lenses you would know what I mean. It is a modern take of things. I will do a video talking about how I used Q3 with M11 soon. As a teaser : I find myself gravitating towards M11 28 Lux M for portraits of family member who would stand still. The classic Leica M look works so well on skin. The photos are the highlights of the day. Anything else I just shoot Q3.
PS: love your work. Your photos of food is amazing! Followed your Ig long before I form this YT channel.
- Keedon
Re the bokeh/DOF, the Q3 is 25mm vs. 28mm on M11, and f/1.7 vs. f/1.4 on the M11 ...PS: I always prefer the skin tones on my Q3 over my M11. I have to work a bit on the file of the M11 to get acceptable skin tones!
Yea there is something strange with M11 files when Lr sees it. It gets given extra magenta for no reason. Got to massage it back to normal. But once you done that - it’s awesome.
great video!
Thank for the supportive comment!
Very interesting, thanks.
Glad you enjoyed it
BTW, what are your names? white shirt, grey shirt?
Amigo in grey shirt is me Junio, Amigo in white shirt is Keedon. 👍🏻
Great comparison. I would love an opportunity to pick up a Q3. No access to a Leica store in Guam 🇬🇺 🏝️.
No problem. We will have a new Q3 soon this month. Would you like to be on our list to consider buying from us?
I definitely preferred the colour on the Q3 and it will be great to see how it performs at higher ISO. Great format BTW.
Yea Q3 colours are most acceptable without much work needed. M11 raw needs a bit of work but once you got the right preset it’s magical! The organic pop is so good without the sharpness. Each to it’s own I reckon! Own them both!
I think what you are seeing with the M11 infinity shot @ 200% is likely shutter shock...no EFCS is available on this model. The Qs with the leaf shutter don't suffer shutter shock.
People often say M does not have shutter shock compared to SLR. But I guess we can try using electronic shutter next. Need to find a scene without anything moving to avoid jello effect. Thanks for your suggestion!
Things look more beautiful on the M with that lens. The Q3 is too clinical and generic looking. M10R is better than both. Also, were you focusing the M with live view peaking to eliminate calibration issues?
Helpful!
Thank you!
M11 + 35mm APO vs Leica Q3 please?
For sure if we have one in future. We wanted to compare the best quality in optics though : APO 28 SL Vs Q3.
Perhaps compare the q3 with the summilux 24 too since the true focal length on the q3 isnt really giving the 28mm field of view
We feel that the Q3 is 26-27mm so a 24mm Lux may be too wide. But sure: when we have the lens we will defo throw into the mix! Thanks for your suggestion.
I owned a leica m262 and 28mm elmarit version 4 and a 50mm summicrom V5 and i now own a Q2 because as you get older it gets harder to focus at least for me but i firmly believe the Q 2 produces a very special look that is easily recognisable when comparing with my old M262 shots so i do not agree with your findings but that is not to say your opinions are not genuine on your part.
Regarding the Q3 i dislike the flippy screen and extra ports as it spoils the look of the camera for me so i will stick with the Q2 for landscape and family imaging.
One thing you have not touched on is that the 28mm f1.4 blocks the viewfinder but with the Q3 you see the whole frame,
Hi. The 28 f1.4 does invade in the view finder slightly but it is not an issue as the lens is not that big nor long. The hood has a cut out gap also so we didn’t feel it is an issue worth saying. Compare to noc 0.95 / 75-1.25 / 90 apo it is nothing. Also Q3 uses electronic view finder so it is not a fair comparison as you can use visoflex for M11. The Lens is bigger on Q3.
Something isn't right with the m11 pictures. Motion unsharpness and probably misfocus. Should try with live view I guess.
O interesting. Which photo did you think is MIs focused? We focused using range finder then check with live view zoom mode. Can retry again in another environment.
@@threeamigoshk I was thinking about the shots at infinity. Coud be that the lens just isn't any good at infinity - like the HB 120 macro.
@@chilmersen Totally agree. I’m looking at the images at 24:00 and the M11 images appear to not be focused. As an M11 and Q2 owner, there is not much difference in sharpness as shown here.
Guys Q3 just looks like has more contrast - Im sure if you moved slider slightly it will be the same (T-Shirt example) . Its just as simple as that ! (Apart from Q3 being 26mm). In the color rendering, you say the Q3 looks like autumn! and the yellow sign is same? How is that same dudes? Its virtually like pale green in the M11 image, even the text is not black but dark green!
I wand to all that 35 and 28mm summilux are extremely good lenses with 3D cinematic look but in infinity are not so sharp.I don’t care about infinity sharpness.I prefer the cinematic look.
Yea I think if I am shooting infinity I would not use the M Lux lenses. Perhaps the APO M for the those kind of shots.
I think you missed focusing on the first M11 photo, I just did a test with my camera and there are very fine details at infinity at 1.7ich.
O do you mind sending us a raw pic for reference?
In summary, broke lens on M11 and M7 is worse than Q3.
Put M11 on tripod It doesn’t have image stabilisation
never seen the m11 this blurry even with a way shittier lens something is off with your M mount lens also there is a little play between full infinity you should have actually focused at a specific thing far away
Your comparaison have nothing to do with the 2 cameras. And this is not an accurate way to do this. Only with real charts i am sorry but you are wrong.
Some people take bad pictures with any camera
Maybe is just the model 🥴