Red Hood and Nightwing need some absence from Gotham, appearing too much by Batman's side makes them feel like sidekicks despite having their own independent lore and backgrounds
Well current Nightwing run is doing that where he’s his own character doing his own thing in a different city Jason was doing other but has stayed in Gotham a lot
@@stiglapoint5672 i know Nightwings always been in Bludhaven but that city lacks any distinct characteristics, in pre 52 it was just Gotham 2.0 the rebirth had it as Vegas with more skyscrapers then after the ric grey arc it just looked like bland ass new york and he's still constantly popping up in Batman stories
Nightwing is actually another one of my favorite characters in DC. I need to brush up on some of my favorite stories/runs regarding him if I want to drop a video on him, but I really hate 2 things in particular about how Dick is handled right now. 1. I hate how Dick has been scrubbed of any and all flaws or blemishes to the point where all he is currently is a funny, himbo, with a BBL. When before, despite Dick being THE ideal hero right next to Superman imo. He still had faults in his person. I know Jason is often portrayed as having anger issues and needs to sometimes reign in his temper. But that was Dick at least pre-new 52. He was the Robin with nasty temper that had to remind himself at times to keep cool. Not to mention his self-loathing issues, more serious attitude, and even detective skills I feel. Were washed away and given to other characters. 2. Bludhaven it's self needs a personality like Gotham does. I actually really loved that during rebirth. Bludhaven looked so beautiful like Vegas because it kinda portrayed how Bludhaven's crime worked. At least how it was established in Chick Dixons run, as hidden away out of plain sight unlike Gotham that looks Gothic and dirty. Represnted by crime being very in your face there.
I love how it’s implied that Jason pushed Gonzales. And it’s off topic but I believe in this storyline Jason & Bruce was already beginning to have a fallout. Jason being vague when answering Bruce’s question was Jason’s attempt to see what Bruce really thought. A test. I actually like the idea Jason didn’t physically push nor touch him, but planned to spook him that would cause his death. Meaning Jason didn’t kill him on paper but is still responsible for not saving him when he could have.
I never thought about it that way, well, it being a test, I mean. To be honest, I would love to see Jason's Robin run get "modernized." It and what Winick wrote after, have such a satisfying and tragic character arc for Jason. But sadly, I don't trust DC to do anything with Robin Jason. Hell, I have 0 faith in them when it comes to modern Jason. So I know they'd botch a storyline that has been effectively written for them in some spectacular way.
@@sumbuddisrants6511I absolutely LOVED your video and find your content amazing overall. It’s something I I thought about because.. why did Jason not answer yes or no? People are quick to theorize it’s cause Jason did k!ll Gonzales but in another perspective it could be Jason testing Bruce on what HE thought. It would confirm whether or not Bruce really trusted Jason or not. We already saw how Jason didn’t k!ll the man who is responsible for his father’s disappearance & subsequently death. I think it’s important to note that while Jason did care for his biological father he gave up on him when he left him & his mom alone. He was enraged more so for his mother being abandoned when they needed Willis most. Leading to his mother’s death & Jay being homeless. And about the rest of the video I completely agree with you. I simply don’t trust DC anymore. They’re never consistent & having multiple reboots, storylines, and all these different writers MAY bring alot of new stories but it suffers so much from abandoned plot points, inconsistencies, & really just bad characterization overtime and completely ignores/glosses over how classits their writing can be with Jason. The cheer storyline I’m SO GLAD you brought up. Why did Jason beat up a random “sketchy” person. He was HOMELESS once, it’s bad writing.
Thank you for your kind words, honestly, and I'm glad you enjoy my content. On the topic of Jason and trust, that's actually going to be a part of my next video I promised in this one, so watch out for that. This script might be way longer than I expected. I'm still writing the rough draft right now, but I want to get it done by the end of August.
I love Red Hood's character, and I would love for him and Bruce to reconcile, but do you know what I would love even more? If it was EARNED! I love fluff every now and again, but it feels like they forced Jason to just accept Bruce's rules without the B-man ever having to own to his own flaws
This is so true, Jason coming back into the Batfamily as a legitimate member always feels so unearned. And honestly, I just feel like Jason is way more compelling when working against the Batfamily. As cool as it is to see him team up with the Batfamily, it basically closes the chapter on so much potential story and conflict between Bruce and Jason. Nobody wants to see Jason shooting rubber bullets and stopping alien invasion. It would be way cooler if Red Hood got his OWN legitimate gritty series where he packed up to another city to hunt down someone like black mask in a punisher style anti-hero story. Hell, take Red Hood to Chicago or LA or some shit. It seems like every single criminal organization in DC is operating on the East Coast. If they just move him out of gotham, it gives them so much more creative control over the character and they could give him his own spawn-like rogues gallery of super dark and nasty villains. I cut the writers some slack because Red Hood really doesnt really have much to do after the Under the Red Hood storyline, but for godsake, they need to stop making him another Batman sidekick.
@@jaelonwillis2336 I have heard rumors that Jason was supposed to kill the joker and become Batman's new nemesis, and I feel like DC not following through with that is a HUGE missed opportunity
@@natoriousthehopeful2786 Whaaaaat?! Ive never heard that before. Who knows how differently Batmans rogues gallery couldve panned out. Theres a possibility that Red Hood couldve been a household name like The Joker. I doubt they would ever kill the Joker off at this point but they should still try to adapt that idea. It would be interesting seeing Jason hunting down and killing a bunch of batmans lesser tier foes like Killer Moth and maybe even Scarecrow, and having him turn into an actual major villain for batman. Current Red Hood was like mild nuisance for a week until getting beaten by Bruce
The writers will never let Jason stop using guns to actually abide by the first rule of the Bat Family so it always feels like they haven’t fully reconciled and that his presence is probationary at best
The thing people always forget is that Bruce actually DID try to kill the Joker after Death in the Family. The Joker just happened to survive the helicopter crash Batman rigged to get rid of him. And then I guess maybe Bruce doubled down on “no I won’t kill him” because he saw this as an ethical breach but that’s speculation on my part
DC has completely scrub Batman history of death. There are so many time's in Batman mythos of him attempting/allowing someone to die in front of him but they don't want that staining Batman reputation.
@@Harleyxjokerforever honestly I’ve always found the Nolan trilogy version’s “nah I’m not saving you” philosophy to be much more sensible than the purist no-kill rule and more inkeeping with Bruce’s character at times, as “I will not allow anyone to die when I’m around” always felt more like a trait of the Spider-Men, the Flashes, or even some other Bat Family members like Cassandra Cain or Tim Drake, to me anyway.
@@Cdr2002 I agree. But I've come to accept that Batman "no one dies" as a plot device to keep popular villains around for later stories. They can only pull the "Someone how the Joker is alive" crap so many times.
@@Harleyxjokerforever yeah I get that though I’m personally sick of certain villains, especially the Joker. Others I think are in need of character development they’re constantly held back from getting. Harley, Ivy, and Man-Bat have broken out of the cycle, which is great, but characters like Freeze, Two-Face, Riddler, and Clayface are still stuck in it despite prior character development and some are actively turned into worse monsters by more recent comics which I’m not a fond of, particularly recent Riddler
@@Cdr2002I agree to a degree. Characters like Joker/Harley/ ivy should be retired but idk about how some having "progression" because usually that just mean turning them into a anti-hero which is something I don't agree with. Not every villains should be redeemed.
I hope some day (hopefully not too long from now) that someoene who loves red hood as much as me gets to write him and we could get all the amazing stories we know are possible with Jason.
I feel like him being part of the Bat-Fam again was always kind of lame. He should be out doing his own thing, and like you said, being the moral middle ground between the traditional hero and a villain.
I've got a story idea for Red Hood. First, get him away from Gotham & the bat family. Give him another crime-riddled city like Hub, New York, or Chicago, LA, or Detroit, or something. And from there, it's about Jason murdering his way to the top of that city's criminal underworld--something that's one part noir, one part Golden Wind, and one part Christopher Marlowe. Have it be about Jason's exploration of himself as a crime-boss, how much he's changing this city for the better, and how far he has to go to maintain his control over the criminal element? How much of his respect for life has to be compromised to preserve the rest of it? Is he really changing things for the better? Or for worse? Or maybe the chilling part is how little he changes things at all? Have this be a story about Red Hood--not just his relationship with the bat family. Throw in legit superheroes for him to contend with from outside the bat family--The Question, Coldcast, maybe even the Atom.
Yeah, inconsistent characterization is a big problem with comics, and at this point it's just easier for me to treat each variation as their own character, with their own merits and flaws. Since we're talking about variations that we would like to see again, I would love some more stories with the Batman and Robin Jason + Scarlet. Lots of untapped potential there, I think.
I feel like the most accurate modern Red Hood depiction has gotta be from Injustice 2. And when I say this, I mean the game, not the tie-in comic where Jason seriously considers beating up a child to teach him a lesson (thank god that didn’t happen). Injustice Red Hood is snarky, quick-witted, nimble, uses the same arsenal UTRH Jason does (shurikens, dagger, explosives, and his iconic dual pistols, which can become electrified to tase enemies), his manner of speech is very much on point, and his moveset compliments his personality nicely. Red Hood’s neither on the side of the Regime nor Insurgency; he’s somewhere in the middle - a true anti-hero, as was originally the case. DITF’s Jason (2020) is also worth mentioning. While he’s the younger, more vulnerable version, not yet hardened by his experiences like Winnick’s Jason, he’s still very much in character, and I really like what they did with him. I mean, have you seen that scene at the diner?! Can we agree it’s marvelous? Getting back to your rant, it’s impressive how astute your arguments are and how well you can articulate them. Keep up the good work, buddy!
bro, I didn't miss you prior to today because I didn't know you existed but you know that somebody's got one for my boy Jason the way I do??? Shyyyyyyyyyte, miss ya enough now, Imma go check ya other videos man! strong review and deconstruction my good sir!
It genuinely breaks my heart whenever I think of him and how much DC had screwed him over to the point of almost no salvation. The amount of potential they have wasted that could've lead to much more interesting stories along with the overall death of his mystique. The mental gymnastics the comics have gone through on why he hasn't offed Joker yet. Having almost the same character arc that involves not getting over his trauma about Joker... Barbara is another victim but she doesn't let what Joker had done to her define her whole being. Him being reduced to a punching bag for giggles despite being a strategic man who tricked batman before, his arc of being accepted to being an enemy to being accepted and being kicked out again. The refusal to just let his character progress... it's just painful. It's amost like DC has no idea what to do with him/ they just really don't gaf or they just hate him that bad. Being a fan because of UTRH, I started reading comics out of curiosity and I'm absolutely apalled by how he barely has atleast three must read comics. Jason should've been away from Gotham and away from the batfamily a long time ago. He should've had a bunch of stories that doesn't involve any of them where he does his own thing... where his character finally progress slowly. He should've been much better by now but of course DC will NEVER EVER let that happen. I could only hope a writer who genuinely likes and understands him can come along one day and do him justice. I'll keep praying🤧
The problem with red hood, in my opinion, is his villain arc. Despite his training being tougher than Bruce's in many regards, he's never seen a true threat. He's more akin to a NightWing villain since thats who hes closest to being equal too. And he should, at the very least, be able to beat Richard in combat 9 times out of 10. But the writers nerfed him so heavily. Its annoying. The character is great. Its the plot behind him
Eh, I don't think Jason should be able to beat Dick 9/10 times. I think you're kinda downplaying Nightwing, but I would say Jason and Dick should be nearly even, and they honestly make for great foils for one another. Sadly, Morrison, Tony Daniel's, etc. didn’t really do the greatest job writing Jason and Dick relationship. But I'm planning on dropping a video sometime in the future about both of those characters, so stay tuned for that.
They do the same thing with Tim who although is probably not the number one fighter in dc is still one of the most capable ones I loved how he was written in the Red Robin run back when Bruce was lost in time its a shame he gets sidelined so many times in favour of other characters
Personally, I've always thought Red Hood and the Winter Soldier should be used the same way: A more violent reflection of their mentor who only shows up occasionally to present some sort of moral dilemma and/or do the job their mentor won't. And outside of that you rarely see them. I adored both characters when they were just occasional guests without ongoing series, as it turns out if you spend too much time with them they get very boring very quickly.
Great video, I will say while I do like Jason as a good guy. More because I love having all the robins together as brothers and sisters in arms but I do recognize that given how the evolution of red hood went it feels like there was an entire redemption arc we will never get to see and that it feels weird for him being part of the bat family given his multiple attempted murder even when he was on good terms with batman. The evolution really went from morally complex to full evil to good to morally stupid. I still love the character and do still like to read how he's portrayed but man was he screwed over a lot
Tbh while I'm not too huge on it, I don't 100% hate a Bat-Family oriented Jason. I can understand its appeal even though its not for me, like I think WFA is cool. My biggest issue is that there is 0 connecting tissue between UTRH Jason and the current Jason we have now. This is something I'll be addressing a bit in my next video.
@@sumbuddisrants6511 Understandable, I actually remember reading Redhood and Outlaws and really liked him shooting the penguin. Mostly because I was interested in what effect the dynamic had on the other family members and admittedly I was hoping for somewhat of a return to form but then it retcon that it was actually a blank or something which I absolutely hated
Amazing video! You basically went into the main issues I have with how DC handles Jason. Its like they've truly hit a dead end for end for the character, which sucks so bad because this character had so much potential. In my more cynical moments, it sometimes feels like it was on purpose, like they just wanted to run down the character in retaliation for his earlier popularity. Its easy to see in pre 52 how a lot of writers hated the idea that Jason was brought back and feel spiteful towards his fans (I know Tony Daniels did, he even admitted it in a ign interview). And glad to see more people hating on cheer, you did a great job on why it was absolute garbage. So many garbage moments from Jason attacking drug addicts, saying he's a bad detective, to Robin Jason attacking a bike thief (remember when Jason only attacked criminals for sexually assaulting women or cp photographers??? Pepperidge Farm remembers). And having the billionaire teaching the formally homeless kid on how to be empathic to poor people, just tastless. Cheers was just full of complete and utter classism. Anyways, sorry for rambling, great video!! Good luck on your next video!
Late, but thank you, tbh I think the mishandling of Jason is mostly due to DC not really knowing what to do with Grey characters. The universe is a little too black and white for the most part, and well, just look at characters like Huntress, Talia al Ghul, and Redhood to see how they get treated. This might actually be a video topic I get around to if I'm not absurdly lazy.
I always had this idea of having Jason and Harley being teamed up in a story somehow. I kinda see Red Hood being to Jason what Harley is to Harleen, identities born from their past traumas and histories with Joker and Batman, and I think both characters could not only conflict in some fun ways but maybe help each other resolve their issues and then move on retiring their old problematic personas and having some form of redemption. Instead of y'know, just turning into a worse feminist deadpool or repeating the same arc every year or two.
What I always found so interesting about Jason Todd is that, even though I don’t agree with his philosophy, I can totally understand where he’s coming from. Sure, I don’t think the logic of “criminals get what they deserve” should ever justify Jason acting as judge, jury, and executioner, I can get where he’s coming from. Gotham has some of the worst criminals in the country and can see their abusing the system to get away with it, and he feels like something has to be done about it. Again, I don’t agree with how Jason does things, in fact I think Batman’s philosophy of not stooping to their level is a lot more honorable, but I can understand where the former Robin is coming from. And I know point does Jason seem evil for holding the opinions he does, at worst his misguided or he just holds a different set of morals than Bruce
This was a great video, but I disagree with some of your points. While Jason wasn't on the path to becoming a hardened criminal as a kid in the comics, I think it makes much for sense for him to have been that way from the beginning. His upbringing was centered around horrible violence, either being the victim of it or committing it himself. He grew up in a world without morality and the only thing he had was his loved ones, like his father or his friends. Loyalty was the highest principle instilled in him, he would do anything for his friends and family morality aside. But Jason saw other people with that same worldview hurt and kill his friends and his family simply because they had more power. So Jason saw how his worldview is evil and he thinks he was just as capable of dishing out the horrors that others dished out on him and his loved ones. He's filled with regret and guilt for everything he did, and scared at the idea that he would do those things again. Jason's hatred of criminals, especially criminals with power, comes from his hatred of himself. Jason views Batman as naive- he thinks he really understands how criminals think, because he believes they think just like he did. So very bit of mercy Batman shows, Jason sees as an opportunity that someone evil can exploit to continue doing horrible things. This is just my own take on Jason, because I can't see how the Jason Todd we got as Robin would turn out into the extremely utilitarian Jason he got as Red Hood. Otherwise, this was an awesome video and I hope you make more because I also really liked your older video dunking on the outlaws costume!
One of my favorite things when discussing Jason is the wildly different ways we all interpret the character, his story, and where we'd like to see him go development wise. But overall, I actually really like your take even if we disagree on some smaller things. I like the way you emphasize how Jason's past makes him value loyalty above all else and extrapolate from there. I'm doing something similar in my upcoming video, so I think you are gonna really like it even if you vehemently disagree. I really appreciate your feedback, and I'm glad you enjoy my content.
@@sumbuddisrants6511 Hey, thanks man! It's always worth listening to someone who actually has something interesting and intelligent to say, disagreement aside. I'm looking forward to that video!
I think Zdarsky’s run while not great, it makes some sense. He has emotional moments as Robin, the difference between these moments are that we see an inner dialogue almost, he feels guilty, it’s a sign of growth. Maybe it was a lot of growth for not much time but it feels like he’s allowed to be a man if he changes his perspective from the exact same aa a boy. I like the idea that Jason shows up every now and again to help the Batfam as his strong sense of family but due to disagreements he could never be a fully fledged bat family member
I think Jason’s problem is that as the red hood, he really peaked in his first storyline, and he’s been aimless ever since; which is why DC tries to reinvent him constantly. At this point, he’s too defined by his trauma, and he’s not allowed to move beyond it. Even when he finally kills the Joker in the 3 Jokers miniseries by Geoff Johns, it changed nothing for him. Bruce offered to help him forge a new path away from the red hood, and of course, Jason refused and wouldn’t meet him halfway, thus making reconciliation impossible.( I know that this storyline is an elseworld tale, but my point remains). I think you’re wrong about Jason not belonging in the bat family, however, he does need a clearly defined role to play within it( if the family can accept Damian, then they can find a way to accept Jason as well). Jason has been reduced to just “ Batman who uses guns”. He should have stayed with Bizarro and Artemis. The 3 of them made an interesting “ dark Trinity “
@@Dhampir101980 In terms of comic stories Jason peaked in UTRH, but I do believe there are even better stories to tell with him, that allow him to grow as a character, but not on the linear badguy-to-goodguy path. I say this because I've come up with my own stories for him, and reactions from people I share those stories with range from "you should work at DC comics that's a genius idea, probably the best Batman story in the past 10 years" to "I know where you're going with this and I hate it". Not trying to toot my own horn, I'm just pointing out there is a way to develop Jason after UTRH in a way some people find extremely satisfying and most importantly coherent. Jason should not be in the bat family, at least not in the traditional sense. Doing that would have to involve Jason agreeing with Bruce's choice to not kill the Joker, or Batman acquiescing to Jason's reasoning. Neither of those events can happen in a satisfying or logical way given the way the UTRH sets up the conflict between Jason and Bruce.
1:41 I don't know if you can really call it mischaraterazation since arguably tge most well loved jason story, which you even refrence, does use that as Bruce's reasoning.
Good point, but even though a story I really enjoy uses that as the reasoning doesn't mean it's necessarily true. As I later talked about in the video, Bruce only adopts Jason and makes him Robin AFTER Jason goes out of his way to stop Ma Gunn, displaying the qualities of a hero despite his upbringing. On another not really related note, I actually don't mind UTH Bruce claiming this is his reasoning as much. Because he isn't the most "reliable" narrator when it comes to Jason. A lot of what he's doing in that story is coping from my point of view. A good example of this is the scene where Alfred asks Bruce if he wants to take down Jason's memorial, and Bruce says, "No, this doesn't change anything." I think Bruce doesn't want to take down Jason's memorial because it allows him to view Jason Todd and The Redhood separately. Jason Todd died and is still dead, and this Redhood guy is just a twisted version of him. And honestly you can't blame Bruce too much. Imagine your kid died and came back 5 years later as a homicidal criminal. I'd find it hard to believe too and start coping lmao. But Im probably reading into this too much, just wanted to bounce this off of you since your comment got me thinking while I was bored lmao.
@@sumbuddisrants6511 it wouldn't be a noteworthy story if it didn't get fans to put significant thought into it, so what you're doing just shows how much it means to you.
If Jason tricked the Joker into getting arrested outside of Gotham in somewhere he couldn't skirt the system like where Barry Allen lives would that be a good or a bad thing. I've been trying to think of a good Jaso Todd story but as you pointed he does get stuck in a loop so would this be within that loop?
I agree to an extent Jason carries the determination and calculating mind of Bruce. But he lacks the idealism required to be Batman. I would love to see an Elseworlds story where Jason grows as a person to picking up the mantle for Bruce.
Tim is a very different case. Admittedly, Im not as well versed on Tim as I am on Dick or Jason. But I don't think Tim has been treated horribly. Its just that he doesn't have his own niche, and they have 0 idea what to do with him. I might do a video on this later, but Tim's problems started at his inception but reached critical mass when they had his father killed and attempted to turn him into Bruce 2.0, I feel. I actually hated that era for Tim because it stripped him of anything that made him unique and interesting imo. And now he's still paying for that up to today imo. Tim was never the most unique Robin because he was made to be a reader stand-in. A replacement and apology for what happened with Jason. He was made to appeal to the widest net possible and be offensive to no one. But he did have one thing going for him. He was the relatable Robin he had a family (dysfunctional one but a family none the less) a social life (normal one), etc. And DC should have leaned into that as his niche instead of turning him into another brooding orphan taken in by Bruce Wayne. Because everyone else who falls into that category have other things that overshadow Tim. I accidentally started writing my next script in here 🤣. But thoughts? As a Tim fan, do you think I'm missing something?
Red Hood and Nightwing need some absence from Gotham, appearing too much by Batman's side makes them feel like sidekicks despite having their own independent lore and backgrounds
Well current Nightwing run is doing that where he’s his own character doing his own thing in a different city
Jason was doing other but has stayed in Gotham a lot
@@stiglapoint5672 i know Nightwings always been in Bludhaven but that city lacks any distinct characteristics, in pre 52 it was just Gotham 2.0 the rebirth had it as Vegas with more skyscrapers then after the ric grey arc it just looked like bland ass new york and he's still constantly popping up in Batman stories
Nightwing is actually another one of my favorite characters in DC. I need to brush up on some of my favorite stories/runs regarding him if I want to drop a video on him, but I really hate 2 things in particular about how Dick is handled right now.
1. I hate how Dick has been scrubbed of any and all flaws or blemishes to the point where all he is currently is a funny, himbo, with a BBL.
When before, despite Dick being THE ideal hero right next to Superman imo. He still had faults in his person. I know Jason is often portrayed as having anger issues and needs to sometimes reign in his temper. But that was Dick at least pre-new 52.
He was the Robin with nasty temper that had to remind himself at times to keep cool. Not to mention his self-loathing issues, more serious attitude, and even detective skills I feel. Were washed away and given to other characters.
2. Bludhaven it's self needs a personality like Gotham does. I actually really loved that during rebirth. Bludhaven looked so beautiful like Vegas because it kinda portrayed how Bludhaven's crime worked. At least how it was established in Chick Dixons run, as hidden away out of plain sight unlike Gotham that looks Gothic and dirty. Represnted by crime being very in your face there.
I love how it’s implied that Jason pushed Gonzales. And it’s off topic but I believe in this storyline Jason & Bruce was already beginning to have a fallout. Jason being vague when answering Bruce’s question was Jason’s attempt to see what Bruce really thought. A test. I actually like the idea Jason didn’t physically push nor touch him, but planned to spook him that would cause his death. Meaning Jason didn’t kill him on paper but is still responsible for not saving him when he could have.
I never thought about it that way, well, it being a test, I mean. To be honest, I would love to see Jason's Robin run get "modernized." It and what Winick wrote after, have such a satisfying and tragic character arc for Jason.
But sadly, I don't trust DC to do anything with Robin Jason. Hell, I have 0 faith in them when it comes to modern Jason. So I know they'd botch a storyline that has been effectively written for them in some spectacular way.
@@sumbuddisrants6511I absolutely LOVED your video and find your content amazing overall. It’s something I I thought about because.. why did Jason not answer yes or no? People are quick to theorize it’s cause Jason did k!ll Gonzales but in another perspective it could be Jason testing Bruce on what HE thought. It would confirm whether or not Bruce really trusted Jason or not. We already saw how Jason didn’t k!ll the man who is responsible for his father’s disappearance & subsequently death. I think it’s important to note that while Jason did care for his biological father he gave up on him when he left him & his mom alone. He was enraged more so for his mother being abandoned when they needed Willis most. Leading to his mother’s death & Jay being homeless. And about the rest of the video I completely agree with you. I simply don’t trust DC anymore. They’re never consistent & having multiple reboots, storylines, and all these different writers MAY bring alot of new stories but it suffers so much from abandoned plot points, inconsistencies, & really just bad characterization overtime and completely ignores/glosses over how classits their writing can be with Jason. The cheer storyline I’m SO GLAD you brought up. Why did Jason beat up a random “sketchy” person. He was HOMELESS once, it’s bad writing.
Thank you for your kind words, honestly, and I'm glad you enjoy my content. On the topic of Jason and trust, that's actually going to be a part of my next video I promised in this one, so watch out for that. This script might be way longer than I expected. I'm still writing the rough draft right now, but I want to get it done by the end of August.
I love Red Hood's character, and I would love for him and Bruce to reconcile, but do you know what I would love even more?
If it was EARNED! I love fluff every now and again, but it feels like they forced Jason to just accept Bruce's rules without the B-man ever having to own to his own flaws
This is so true, Jason coming back into the Batfamily as a legitimate member always feels so unearned. And honestly, I just feel like Jason is way more compelling when working against the Batfamily. As cool as it is to see him team up with the Batfamily, it basically closes the chapter on so much potential story and conflict between Bruce and Jason. Nobody wants to see Jason shooting rubber bullets and stopping alien invasion. It would be way cooler if Red Hood got his OWN legitimate gritty series where he packed up to another city to hunt down someone like black mask in a punisher style anti-hero story. Hell, take Red Hood to Chicago or LA or some shit. It seems like every single criminal organization in DC is operating on the East Coast. If they just move him out of gotham, it gives them so much more creative control over the character and they could give him his own spawn-like rogues gallery of super dark and nasty villains. I cut the writers some slack because Red Hood really doesnt really have much to do after the Under the Red Hood storyline, but for godsake, they need to stop making him another Batman sidekick.
@@jaelonwillis2336 I have heard rumors that Jason was supposed to kill the joker and become Batman's new nemesis, and I feel like DC not following through with that is a HUGE missed opportunity
@@natoriousthehopeful2786 Whaaaaat?! Ive never heard that before. Who knows how differently Batmans rogues gallery couldve panned out. Theres a possibility that Red Hood couldve been a household name like The Joker. I doubt they would ever kill the Joker off at this point but they should still try to adapt that idea. It would be interesting seeing Jason hunting down and killing a bunch of batmans lesser tier foes like Killer Moth and maybe even Scarecrow, and having him turn into an actual major villain for batman. Current Red Hood was like mild nuisance for a week until getting beaten by Bruce
@@jaelonwillis2336 If you really think about it, Jason truly is the foil to Batman's moral code and they could do a lot more with that if they tried
The writers will never let Jason stop using guns to actually abide by the first rule of the Bat Family so it always feels like they haven’t fully reconciled and that his presence is probationary at best
The thing people always forget is that Bruce actually DID try to kill the Joker after Death in the Family. The Joker just happened to survive the helicopter crash Batman rigged to get rid of him. And then I guess maybe Bruce doubled down on “no I won’t kill him” because he saw this as an ethical breach but that’s speculation on my part
DC has completely scrub Batman history of death. There are so many time's in Batman mythos of him attempting/allowing someone to die in front of him but they don't want that staining Batman reputation.
@@Harleyxjokerforever honestly I’ve always found the Nolan trilogy version’s “nah I’m not saving you” philosophy to be much more sensible than the purist no-kill rule and more inkeeping with Bruce’s character at times, as “I will not allow anyone to die when I’m around” always felt more like a trait of the Spider-Men, the Flashes, or even some other Bat Family members like Cassandra Cain or Tim Drake, to me anyway.
@@Cdr2002 I agree. But I've come to accept that Batman "no one dies" as a plot device to keep popular villains around for later stories. They can only pull the "Someone how the Joker is alive" crap so many times.
@@Harleyxjokerforever yeah I get that though I’m personally sick of certain villains, especially the Joker. Others I think are in need of character development they’re constantly held back from getting. Harley, Ivy, and Man-Bat have broken out of the cycle, which is great, but characters like Freeze, Two-Face, Riddler, and Clayface are still stuck in it despite prior character development and some are actively turned into worse monsters by more recent comics which I’m not a fond of, particularly recent Riddler
@@Cdr2002I agree to a degree. Characters like Joker/Harley/ ivy should be retired but idk about how some having "progression" because usually that just mean turning them into a anti-hero which is something I don't agree with. Not every villains should be redeemed.
He should've stayed an Outlaw with a patchwork family and just team up for Tim's sake at this point
The wah you described the plot loop makes me depressed because of how on point it is 😂
I hope some day (hopefully not too long from now) that someoene who loves red hood as much as me gets to write him and we could get all the amazing stories we know are possible with Jason.
I feel like him being part of the Bat-Fam again was always kind of lame. He should be out doing his own thing, and like you said, being the moral middle ground between the traditional hero and a villain.
I've got a story idea for Red Hood.
First, get him away from Gotham & the bat family. Give him another crime-riddled city like Hub, New York, or Chicago, LA, or Detroit, or something. And from there, it's about Jason murdering his way to the top of that city's criminal underworld--something that's one part noir, one part Golden Wind, and one part Christopher Marlowe. Have it be about Jason's exploration of himself as a crime-boss, how much he's changing this city for the better, and how far he has to go to maintain his control over the criminal element? How much of his respect for life has to be compromised to preserve the rest of it? Is he really changing things for the better? Or for worse? Or maybe the chilling part is how little he changes things at all? Have this be a story about Red Hood--not just his relationship with the bat family. Throw in legit superheroes for him to contend with from outside the bat family--The Question, Coldcast, maybe even the Atom.
Yeah, inconsistent characterization is a big problem with comics, and at this point it's just easier for me to treat each variation as their own character, with their own merits and flaws.
Since we're talking about variations that we would like to see again, I would love some more stories with the Batman and Robin Jason + Scarlet. Lots of untapped potential there, I think.
I feel like the most accurate modern Red Hood depiction has gotta be from Injustice 2. And when I say this, I mean the game, not the tie-in comic where Jason seriously considers beating up a child to teach him a lesson (thank god that didn’t happen). Injustice Red Hood is snarky, quick-witted, nimble, uses the same arsenal UTRH Jason does (shurikens, dagger, explosives, and his iconic dual pistols, which can become electrified to tase enemies), his manner of speech is very much on point, and his moveset compliments his personality nicely. Red Hood’s neither on the side of the Regime nor Insurgency; he’s somewhere in the middle - a true anti-hero, as was originally the case.
DITF’s Jason (2020) is also worth mentioning. While he’s the younger, more vulnerable version, not yet hardened by his experiences like Winnick’s Jason, he’s still very much in character, and I really like what they did with him. I mean, have you seen that scene at the diner?! Can we agree it’s marvelous?
Getting back to your rant, it’s impressive how astute your arguments are and how well you can articulate them. Keep up the good work, buddy!
bro, I didn't miss you prior to today because I didn't know you existed but you know that somebody's got one for my boy Jason the way I do??? Shyyyyyyyyyte, miss ya enough now, Imma go check ya other videos man! strong review and deconstruction my good sir!
It genuinely breaks my heart whenever I think of him and how much DC had screwed him over to the point of almost no salvation. The amount of potential they have wasted that could've lead to much more interesting stories along with the overall death of his mystique. The mental gymnastics the comics have gone through on why he hasn't offed Joker yet. Having almost the same character arc that involves not getting over his trauma about Joker... Barbara is another victim but she doesn't let what Joker had done to her define her whole being. Him being reduced to a punching bag for giggles despite being a strategic man who tricked batman before, his arc of being accepted to being an enemy to being accepted and being kicked out again. The refusal to just let his character progress... it's just painful. It's amost like DC has no idea what to do with him/ they just really don't gaf or they just hate him that bad. Being a fan because of UTRH, I started reading comics out of curiosity and I'm absolutely apalled by how he barely has atleast three must read comics.
Jason should've been away from Gotham and away from the batfamily a long time ago. He should've had a bunch of stories that doesn't involve any of them where he does his own thing... where his character finally progress slowly. He should've been much better by now but of course DC will NEVER EVER let that happen. I could only hope a writer who genuinely likes and understands him can come along one day and do him justice. I'll keep praying🤧
The problem with red hood, in my opinion, is his villain arc. Despite his training being tougher than Bruce's in many regards, he's never seen a true threat. He's more akin to a NightWing villain since thats who hes closest to being equal too. And he should, at the very least, be able to beat Richard in combat 9 times out of 10. But the writers nerfed him so heavily. Its annoying. The character is great. Its the plot behind him
Eh, I don't think Jason should be able to beat Dick 9/10 times. I think you're kinda downplaying Nightwing, but I would say Jason and Dick should be nearly even, and they honestly make for great foils for one another. Sadly, Morrison, Tony Daniel's, etc. didn’t really do the greatest job writing Jason and Dick relationship. But I'm planning on dropping a video sometime in the future about both of those characters, so stay tuned for that.
They do the same thing with Tim who although is probably not the number one fighter in dc is still one of the most capable ones I loved how he was written in the Red Robin run back when Bruce was lost in time its a shame he gets sidelined so many times in favour of other characters
Personally, I've always thought Red Hood and the Winter Soldier should be used the same way: A more violent reflection of their mentor who only shows up occasionally to present some sort of moral dilemma and/or do the job their mentor won't. And outside of that you rarely see them. I adored both characters when they were just occasional guests without ongoing series, as it turns out if you spend too much time with them they get very boring very quickly.
Perfectly said
Great video, I will say while I do like Jason as a good guy. More because I love having all the robins together as brothers and sisters in arms but I do recognize that given how the evolution of red hood went it feels like there was an entire redemption arc we will never get to see and that it feels weird for him being part of the bat family given his multiple attempted murder even when he was on good terms with batman. The evolution really went from morally complex to full evil to good to morally stupid. I still love the character and do still like to read how he's portrayed but man was he screwed over a lot
Tbh while I'm not too huge on it, I don't 100% hate a Bat-Family oriented Jason. I can understand its appeal even though its not for me, like I think WFA is cool. My biggest issue is that there is 0 connecting tissue between UTRH Jason and the current Jason we have now. This is something I'll be addressing a bit in my next video.
@@sumbuddisrants6511 Understandable, I actually remember reading Redhood and Outlaws and really liked him shooting the penguin. Mostly because I was interested in what effect the dynamic had on the other family members and admittedly I was hoping for somewhat of a return to form but then it retcon that it was actually a blank or something which I absolutely hated
Never say never, this machine never stops churning out material.
"Let's Newton's Laws deal out justice." Nice turn of phrase.
Nice lore explanation my dude, great character analysis, and epic comic spreads!
*Gives me some things to think on!* 🎉
Amazing video! You basically went into the main issues I have with how DC handles Jason. Its like they've truly hit a dead end for end for the character, which sucks so bad because this character had so much potential. In my more cynical moments, it sometimes feels like it was on purpose, like they just wanted to run down the character in retaliation for his earlier popularity. Its easy to see in pre 52 how a lot of writers hated the idea that Jason was brought back and feel spiteful towards his fans (I know Tony Daniels did, he even admitted it in a ign interview).
And glad to see more people hating on cheer, you did a great job on why it was absolute garbage. So many garbage moments from Jason attacking drug addicts, saying he's a bad detective, to Robin Jason attacking a bike thief (remember when Jason only attacked criminals for sexually assaulting women or cp photographers??? Pepperidge Farm remembers). And having the billionaire teaching the formally homeless kid on how to be empathic to poor people, just tastless. Cheers was just full of complete and utter classism.
Anyways, sorry for rambling, great video!! Good luck on your next video!
Late, but thank you, tbh I think the mishandling of Jason is mostly due to DC not really knowing what to do with Grey characters. The universe is a little too black and white for the most part, and well, just look at characters like Huntress, Talia al Ghul, and Redhood to see how they get treated. This might actually be a video topic I get around to if I'm not absurdly lazy.
I get the protect kids argument but I’d shoot Damien too😂😂
I always had this idea of having Jason and Harley being teamed up in a story somehow. I kinda see Red Hood being to Jason what Harley is to Harleen, identities born from their past traumas and histories with Joker and Batman, and I think both characters could not only conflict in some fun ways but maybe help each other resolve their issues and then move on retiring their old problematic personas and having some form of redemption. Instead of y'know, just turning into a worse feminist deadpool or repeating the same arc every year or two.
As a Polish person you pronounce the last name Kowalski as smth like 'kohvalsky' ;D
What I always found so interesting about Jason Todd is that, even though I don’t agree with his philosophy, I can totally understand where he’s coming from.
Sure, I don’t think the logic of “criminals get what they deserve” should ever justify Jason acting as judge, jury, and executioner, I can get where he’s coming from.
Gotham has some of the worst criminals in the country and can see their abusing the system to get away with it, and he feels like something has to be done about it. Again, I don’t agree with how Jason does things, in fact I think Batman’s philosophy of not stooping to their level is a lot more honorable, but I can understand where the former Robin is coming from. And I know point does Jason seem evil for holding the opinions he does, at worst his misguided or he just holds a different set of morals than Bruce
Still watching. However I just realized Jason actually had the personality of the very first Batman from Earth 2.
I like him as a hero more than a villain
This was a great video, but I disagree with some of your points. While Jason wasn't on the path to becoming a hardened criminal as a kid in the comics, I think it makes much for sense for him to have been that way from the beginning. His upbringing was centered around horrible violence, either being the victim of it or committing it himself. He grew up in a world without morality and the only thing he had was his loved ones, like his father or his friends. Loyalty was the highest principle instilled in him, he would do anything for his friends and family morality aside.
But Jason saw other people with that same worldview hurt and kill his friends and his family simply because they had more power. So Jason saw how his worldview is evil and he thinks he was just as capable of dishing out the horrors that others dished out on him and his loved ones. He's filled with regret and guilt for everything he did, and scared at the idea that he would do those things again. Jason's hatred of criminals, especially criminals with power, comes from his hatred of himself.
Jason views Batman as naive- he thinks he really understands how criminals think, because he believes they think just like he did. So very bit of mercy Batman shows, Jason sees as an opportunity that someone evil can exploit to continue doing horrible things.
This is just my own take on Jason, because I can't see how the Jason Todd we got as Robin would turn out into the extremely utilitarian Jason he got as Red Hood.
Otherwise, this was an awesome video and I hope you make more because I also really liked your older video dunking on the outlaws costume!
One of my favorite things when discussing Jason is the wildly different ways we all interpret the character, his story, and where we'd like to see him go development wise.
But overall, I actually really like your take even if we disagree on some smaller things. I like the way you emphasize how Jason's past makes him value loyalty above all else and extrapolate from there. I'm doing something similar in my upcoming video, so I think you are gonna really like it even if you vehemently disagree. I really appreciate your feedback, and I'm glad you enjoy my content.
@@sumbuddisrants6511 Hey, thanks man! It's always worth listening to someone who actually has something interesting and intelligent to say, disagreement aside. I'm looking forward to that video!
I think Zdarsky’s run while not great, it makes some sense. He has emotional moments as Robin, the difference between these moments are that we see an inner dialogue almost, he feels guilty, it’s a sign of growth. Maybe it was a lot of growth for not much time but it feels like he’s allowed to be a man if he changes his perspective from the exact same aa a boy. I like the idea that Jason shows up every now and again to help the Batfam as his strong sense of family but due to disagreements he could never be a fully fledged bat family member
I think Jason’s problem is that as the red hood, he really peaked in his first storyline, and he’s been aimless ever since; which is why DC tries to reinvent him constantly.
At this point, he’s too defined by his trauma, and he’s not allowed to move beyond it.
Even when he finally kills the Joker in the 3 Jokers miniseries by Geoff Johns, it changed nothing for him. Bruce offered to help him forge a new path away from the red hood, and of course, Jason refused and wouldn’t meet him halfway, thus making reconciliation impossible.( I know that this storyline is an elseworld tale, but my point remains).
I think you’re wrong about Jason not belonging in the bat family, however, he does need a clearly defined role to play within it( if the family can accept Damian, then they can find a way to accept Jason as well).
Jason has been reduced to just “ Batman who uses guns”. He should have stayed with Bizarro and Artemis. The 3 of them made an interesting “ dark Trinity “
@@Dhampir101980 In terms of comic stories Jason peaked in UTRH, but I do believe there are even better stories to tell with him, that allow him to grow as a character, but not on the linear badguy-to-goodguy path. I say this because I've come up with my own stories for him, and reactions from people I share those stories with range from "you should work at DC comics that's a genius idea, probably the best Batman story in the past 10 years" to "I know where you're going with this and I hate it". Not trying to toot my own horn, I'm just pointing out there is a way to develop Jason after UTRH in a way some people find extremely satisfying and most importantly coherent.
Jason should not be in the bat family, at least not in the traditional sense. Doing that would have to involve Jason agreeing with Bruce's choice to not kill the Joker, or Batman acquiescing to Jason's reasoning. Neither of those events can happen in a satisfying or logical way given the way the UTRH sets up the conflict between Jason and Bruce.
Great stuff.
1:41 I don't know if you can really call it mischaraterazation since arguably tge most well loved jason story, which you even refrence, does use that as Bruce's reasoning.
Good point, but even though a story I really enjoy uses that as the reasoning doesn't mean it's necessarily true. As I later talked about in the video, Bruce only adopts Jason and makes him Robin AFTER Jason goes out of his way to stop Ma Gunn, displaying the qualities of a hero despite his upbringing.
On another not really related note, I actually don't mind UTH Bruce claiming this is his reasoning as much. Because he isn't the most "reliable" narrator when it comes to Jason. A lot of what he's doing in that story is coping from my point of view.
A good example of this is the scene where Alfred asks Bruce if he wants to take down Jason's memorial, and Bruce says, "No, this doesn't change anything." I think Bruce doesn't want to take down Jason's memorial because it allows him to view Jason Todd and The Redhood separately.
Jason Todd died and is still dead, and this Redhood guy is just a twisted version of him. And honestly you can't blame Bruce too much. Imagine your kid died and came back 5 years later as a homicidal criminal. I'd find it hard to believe too and start coping lmao.
But Im probably reading into this too much, just wanted to bounce this off of you since your comment got me thinking while I was bored lmao.
@@sumbuddisrants6511 it wouldn't be a noteworthy story if it didn't get fans to put significant thought into it, so what you're doing just shows how much it means to you.
If Jason tricked the Joker into getting arrested outside of Gotham in somewhere he couldn't skirt the system like where Barry Allen lives would that be a good or a bad thing. I've been trying to think of a good Jaso Todd story but as you pointed he does get stuck in a loop so would this be within that loop?
I don't think that would be in the loop as long as Batman doesn't get involved and beats Jason's ass lmao
Jason with the Earth-2 Robin yellow pants isn’t a bad idea tbh
Good video (music bit to loud)
We need a LORD DEATH MAN comic series it would be so fucking funny
Whats your opinion on the one time Jason dressed up as Nightwing?
Brother in blood sucked I never understood the fascination with putting Jason in other people's costumes during that era.
I would be up for bat-family fluff Jason if they actually earned it.
Gained a new sub
Thank you! Glad you enjoyed
The music is a bit too loud. It’s kinda hard to hear you.
I wish I've seen this video sooner
Wait why 😂
@sumbuddisrants6511 I lost the video before it came back into my recommended
What you cooking chief?
Do you mean my next video or ?
@@sumbuddisrants6511 yeah when it droppin?
Today or tomorrow at the latest 👀
Jason would make a good batman
I agree to an extent Jason carries the determination and calculating mind of Bruce. But he lacks the idealism required to be Batman. I would love to see an Elseworlds story where Jason grows as a person to picking up the mantle for Bruce.
"He's not gay enough"
modern DC-probably yesterday idk how to read anyway
?
@@knightsblight I know, it's hard to take in
DC doesn't seem to be too tuned into the agenda yet, at least from what I see at my angle.
What the fuck are you talking about lmao
@@Chef_AlpoMultiple DC characters have recently come out as bisexual and their stories have always been political.
atleast he is treated better than tim by dc editorial🤔🤔
Tim is a very different case. Admittedly, Im not as well versed on Tim as I am on Dick or Jason. But I don't think Tim has been treated horribly. Its just that he doesn't have his own niche, and they have 0 idea what to do with him.
I might do a video on this later, but Tim's problems started at his inception but reached critical mass when they had his father killed and attempted to turn him into Bruce 2.0, I feel. I actually hated that era for Tim because it stripped him of anything that made him unique and interesting imo.
And now he's still paying for that up to today imo. Tim was never the most unique Robin because he was made to be a reader stand-in. A replacement and apology for what happened with Jason. He was made to appeal to the widest net possible and be offensive to no one.
But he did have one thing going for him. He was the relatable Robin he had a family (dysfunctional one but a family none the less) a social life (normal one), etc. And DC should have leaned into that as his niche instead of turning him into another brooding orphan taken in by Bruce Wayne. Because everyone else who falls into that category have other things that overshadow Tim.
I accidentally started writing my next script in here 🤣. But thoughts? As a Tim fan, do you think I'm missing something?
@@sumbuddisrants6511 you are right the problem with tim is he still robin despite moving from being robin he need his on identity
Howd you sell that little for being a bat-adjacent character? Nepotism fail lol
The music makes your voice very unclear. I shouldn't have to focus so much to make out your words
Ye, I've gotten 3 comments like this so far that's my bad. Forgot to adjust the background audio values when creating the video.