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- Zhukov's Disastrous Rzhev/Sychevka Campaigns
With Prit Buttar
Part of Eastern Front Week (3) on WW2TV
More Red Army and Soviet content on WW2TV
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The fighting between the German and Russian armies in the Rzhev Salient was so grisly, so murderous, and saw such vast losses that the troops called the campaign The Meat Grinder. Though millions of men would fight and die there, the Rzhev Salient does not have the name recognition of Leningrad or Moscow. It was simply a vast tract of forests and swamps in the heart of Mother Russia that has been largely ignored by Western historians...until now. We will look at the campaign and especially the leadership of General (later Marshal) Georgy Zhukov.
Our guest is historian Prit Buttar, who has written numerous excellent books on the Eastern Front and we are delighted he is returning to WW2TV for our third Eastern Front week.
His latest book: Meat Grinder: The Battles for the Rzhev Salient, 1942-43 covers the campaign featured in today's show:
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Prit's previous WW2TV shows:
6 Panzer Division at Verkhne Kumsky - Operation Winter Storm • 6 Panzer Division at V...
The Vyazma Airborne Operation (Red Army Paratroops • The Vyazma Airborne Op...
The Red Army 1942 to 1944 • The Red Army 1942 to 1...
Prit's other books:
The Reckoning: The Defeat of Army Group South, 1944
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On a Knife's Edge: The Ukraine, November 1942-March 1943
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Between Giants: The Battle for the Baltics in World War II
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Retribution: The Soviet Reconquest of Central Ukraine, 1943
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I believe that WW2TV is "must viewing" for anyone interested in obtaining a more accurate understanding of the enormously complex, nuanced and colossal struggle that was WW2. Prit Buttar's depth of knowledge and ability to clearly and concisely convey that knowledge is truly impressive. I can always count on Prit to bring the history to life in a truly engaging manner. I come away from his discussions with new insights while being disabused of my false preconceptions. Well done to both Prit Buttar and our peerless host Paul Woodadge!
One further comment: based upon my personal experience with giving presentations, I am very impressed with Prit Butter’s rare ability to seamlessly weave in his answers to online sidebar questions in a manner that maintains an overall continuity with his presentation.
I was very impressed with that ability.
Prit is a thorough historian, as well as a good (and prolific) writer. I can't think of a higher compliment than that. Thanks for giving him a good forum to teach the hoi polloi!
There was one instance at Rzhev where the Soviets had been launching repeated frontal assaults towards a German strongpoint for over 6 months. Then, their commanding officer was changed, attacked from the flank, and conquered the position in 4 hours. Gets to show you how incompetent officers can be more dangerous than the enemy itself!
Excellent presentation. Having read other accounts of Rzhev, I share Pritt's puzzlement at Soviet strategy here. STAVKA seemed to persistently overestimate their capabilities vis-a-vis the Wehrmacht.
they were trying to divert attention from operation Uranus and pin down waste pz armee 3 and prevent its removal for refit
WWIITV by Paul Woodage is THE most authoritative channel / medium for a clear AND most importantly, accurate dissertation for any segment of the Second World War. Great presentation as usual Paul!!!!!!
Thanks very much. We're certainly building quite a resource
@@WW2TV
You’re most welcomed Paul. The kudos are well earned. WW2TV is my “go to” source and I always recommend it to my friends and colleagues.
The poem at the end makes me think of Verdun and the villages around the battlefield that are completely destroyed. There are signs where the houses use to be, and mayors are named for the villages.
Zhukov allegedly never lost a battle but he lost twice as many troops in one inconclusive battle as the US lost in Europe and the Pacific combined.
Well inconclusive isn't a loss is it ? The idea that any General from ww2 is infallible or even semi competent is laughable .
Zhukov was a butcher, but he won and that’s all that counts, huh.
Different scale of war
@@mathewkelly9968 Chester Nimitz might fit that, the only Allied commander that never lost a battle, or fought an inconclusive battle. Even when outnumbered by enemy forces.
As to Rzhev and Zhukov. This battle was a lost. The objectives were not gained, not like he took 3 iof 4.. the scale of the Red Army losses as to inflicted equals a loss. Zhukov takes credit in his book for Stalingrad, taken another's glory and credit.
Paul/Prit, Fabulous presentation. So interesting! Regards, Bob
A great episode about this bloody series of battles.
Yep, Prit always delivers
So, so interesting and so much sadness of the lost lives not even recognised.
Didn’t Kraftwerk do a song about Model?
‘He’s a Model and he thinks he’s good’ ?
🤔
Brilliant again Pritt.
Thanks again Woody! 👍👍
Yes. Model modelled together the front yet again.
Germany wins '80s synth grinder 😂
I've read a handful of the author's recent works as e-books, but this is the first video I've encountered. It's very well done in a great many respects, and Buttar occupies the video role very comfortably. The use of legible maps is first-rate. And I found it charming that Buttar confesses he could not discover why Zhukov turned the meat grinder on in the first place.
It is always a good episode when Prit is on. My wife is going to be wrapped when I tell her I have another book to buy.
It's a great read
Another fascinating author and insightful presentation. Its almost surreal to hear the Germans taking the same casualties in this salient as they took taking either Poland or France.
Pritt Buttar is definitely top shelf when it comes to presentation on WW2TV. Very few of your guests are in his league and none better. The narrative he presented was as informative as it was enjoyable.
Pritt has done excellent work that rivals Glantz's with an understanding from the both sides. Another thing everyone should keep in mind is the use of the horses both local with the panje carts and from Germany pulling Artillery. Great presentation of battles I am familiar with.
Fantastic presentation & company of fellow WW2 students! Thank you Paul & Prit! This channel is by far one of the most under-appreciated WW2 channels.
I live in hope we will be discovered by the masses
35:33 as someone who worked at sea where navigation is vital this picture amazes me . It reminds me of MacArthur looking at a map of PNG and thinking a 4 lane highway linked Port Moresby to the Northern PNG coast . Im sure these cant read a map buffoons would have me trying to cut across a headland because it looked good on a map .
Howdy folks. Another masterpiece by Dr Buttar. Fantastic presentation on a bloody battle mostly unknown in the west. This is why WW2TV is the best channel on TH-cam.
Thank you and your guest as ever for this fascinating presentation. Throughout history there are inexplicable decisions made and very worth discussing in context. And this one comes with a fine description of the campaigns. I have come to believe that even great commanders are actually human and can have nervous breakdowns frequently due to exhaustion. As comfortable a Catch 22 as it is I would give a notable example of Braxton Bragg at Chattanooga and related James Longstreet at Knoxville or Hitler. I consider the Western front in WW1 living in a sewer till you died and cannot read about it. Thank you again for another voyage of enlightenment
Love Prit Buttar read 3 of his books one of my favorite eastern front authors
I was waiting for this one !! What an amazing amazing presentation!
Thank you very much for informing us of this Soviet debacle. It seems that so many of Zhukov's operations involved such heavy casualties. The fact that he never seemed to let this phase him is perhaps why Stalin favored him. I can't imagine that Stalin wasn't involved in this "Gotterdammerung" behind the scenes. He surely must have been driving the effort as he was desperate to ensure the success of operation Uranus to trap the 6th Army and force the Germans to abandon the attempt for the oil fields in the south. I believe this was a massive attempt to pin the Germans down so that no forces could be diverted to relieve the 6th Army. In the same light, the Germans were also tying down the Red Army from doing the same. The battle highlighted the superior tactical acumen of the German army in 1942 thru early 1943. Well presented.
Thanks David
Great! There are never enough maps! Just ordered the book also!
Truly superb video. I have just discovered this channel and I could not be more impressed.
Welcome aboard!
Just for contemplation. 1942 was the worst year for the Soviets in terms of armaments and munitions. Even worse than 1941. They managed to relocate vital industries for the war effort to the Urals, but these industries had to begin their production in full swing. Especially gruesome the situation was relating to heavy artillery. This situation wasn't brilliant even before the war but in 1942 it was really desperate. And as a result for every Russian heavy shell two or three German shells came back and they were usually of a heavier caliber. So Zhukov had to fight with the cards which he possessed. And a couple more considerations: unlike Paulus's 6th Army which had serious logistics difficulties even before its encirclement Model's 9th Army was firmly based on a key railway road leading directly to Germany and it didn't have any logistics difficulties. For Model it wasn't any problem to fire up to 2000 tons of heavy shells every day. Second: speaking of the war on the Eastern Front, it's very usual to mention Soviet wonderful T-34 tank. What's always omitted is that for the Soviets lacking heavy artillery and totally lacking _mobile_ heavy artillery capable of moving with a speed of 40-50 km per hour tanks were the so-called perpendicular answer for overwhelming German artillery might. Germans boasts how they were great in leading maneuverable war but in fact for Soviets which at last managed to form their tank armies this wasn't a great problem. The problem was German heavy artillery. In Stalingrad the Soviets managed to break the German frontline with their tanks because a) the terrain was far more suitable for tank operations - in fact, plain winter steppe and b) they managed to break it through Romanian not German divisions and later they destroyed Italian army. But there were no Rumanians in the 9th Army. So in these conditions the positive result was not to lose the battle, not more. The unavoidable question arises: what if the Soviets hadn't begun their Rzhev operations? Maybe it'd be better simply to sit still and wait for better conditions later? Ok, this has its answer. First, Germans weren't going to sit still and they planned their own pincer offensive with the goal of cutting the so called Sukhinichi salient and once again to be close to Moscow. If they managed to do this the losses on the Russian side will be much higher with encirclement, thousands of POWs and disastrous results. Second, don't forget one very important detail. Yes, Model successfully led defensive actions but he widely used one extremely important resource: the Grossdeutchland Panzer Division. This division was on a par with such SS divisions as Totenkolf, Das Reich and Leibstandarte in terms of numbers (20 thousand men) and equipment. By the Soviets some armies counted 20 thousand men. If the Soviets sit still by Rzhev, Germans would be able to transfer Grossdeutchland to Manstein for his relief effort and who knows how it'd ended.
An excellent post.
What a great presentation by Prit, what a rockstar!
There's a quite good tabletop tactical wargame about the Grossdeutchland's fight in the Luchessa Valley: GD'42 by The Gamers (published by Multiman Publishing). The game system revolves around the planning element of command & control, so that you can really see the problems of rigid Soviet planning and huge differences in how quickly each side could respond to events. 8/10: highly recommend, but it's a long game and you dive into details.
TCS is great! Love the ops sheets! But it has been supplanted by more modern systems. Nothing quite gets the challenge of adaptability like the ops sheets though…
Awesome detailed video, still so many things to uncover about ww2...
Another excellent show.
Tempted by Pritt's work on Rhzev. Best book I've read on the subject was by Svetlana Gersimova.
Again on catch up, that'll teach me to stay up late 1am NZ, waiting for the SLS launch. Looking forward to getting the audio version of Prits latest book.
This was the first time I've listened to Prit Buttar give a presentation and it didn't disappoint. Rzhev is an overlooked campaign and Prit brought it to life for the viewers with good maps and good data and good stories from the front. It's hard to do research on Russian/Soviet Military History for a Western scholar, for a variety of reasons and Prit has brought us new details and insights on Soviet and German leadership. And for those who pay attention to the current war in Ukraine, there are some striking similarities. Russian doctrine doesn't change much? If you read this comment I hope you will give this show a look, this is WW2TV at it's finest. Another fantastic show Paul and Prit. Meat Grinder drops here in the US in Oct and I'm looking forward to it, in the meantime I ordered Retribution, it seems a little topical. Thanks as always, Paul
Your channel is mandatory viewing for all fans of WW2 military history.
Good analysis Stalin thought he had Germany on the ropes and Hitler thought the same. Both Soviet offensives failed due to poor execution bad logistics and poor soldier training. They had no chance. But three to one odds allowed some success. Germans knew they were coming
I'm a big fan of Prit Buttar's WWI East Front books. Looking forward to reading his WWII East Front books. He is always a fascinating guest on your show.
I would say Zhukov had bloody failures around Rzhev. In the hellish Eastern Front you can call disasters the huge encirclements suffered by other Soviet generals during the Barbarossa Operation, at Minsk, Smolensk, Kiev, or by the Germans at Stalingrad and during the Bagration Operation.
Even when Zhukov failed, he was on the attack, doing his own damage to the enemy.
Great presentation. Fantastic choice in subject matter. Thank you!
Sorry Prit for misspelling your name!
Apropos the lack of Soviet air activity - was the Luftwaffe a problem here? I know it was the absolute opposite of ‘everything everywhere every time ‘ but if it was able to be present ….
As to ‘why’??!!
War Logic is a strange beast. I agree with Prit. It seems so stupid but … ‘we have to do something’ syndrome.
Brilliant presentation!
Excellent! (Meatgrinder Rzhev indeed - so reminds me of Ypres... but worse, I shudder.)
Fantastic...I love hearing about area of WW2 that you just don't hear about. ....keep up the good work
A fine presentation In WW I 1916 the Russians kept attacking in the swamps of the Stokhod river which lead MG Alfred Know in "With the Russian Army 1914-1917 "The Russian Command for some unknown reason seems to choose a bog to drown in."
This is an amazing channel.
Thanks very much
Love this channel
Has Prit a command of Russia?
Yes
A long time ago I read Zhukov's Memoirs, my memories of the book are both how bombastic it was and how much Zhukov sucks up to Stalin.
How much this sort of behavior was informed by the very real fear of Stalin, I don't know.
Damn you both ! 🙂This was again such an outstanding presentation that I find myself buying even more books.
This channel has rapidly become one of my two favourite channels on "things around WW2" and it is certainly the top dog in battle analysis.
Thank you for your work !
You are very welcome Otto
Germans outnumbered 2:1 but inflicted 4:1 to 6:1 casualties. I agree with Prit and give it to the krauts on a technical. Soviets settle the deficit at Kursk '43.
Prit Buttar certainly deserves a Wiki profile. Superb presentation.
I find the Rhzev meat grinder absolutely fascinating
The fact that 7,62x54r Maxim guns keep getting spotted on the front in Ukraine, sometimes modified to accept optics, speaks volume to the design. Pretty much unmovable but it will fire pretty much forever from a fixed defensive position
A marvelous presentation by Prit, I think he should be awarded 4 gold collar pips.
Interesting and well-presented. If you go to Google Earth to look at the battlefield from space, one is struck by just how barren and empty this region is. Probably even more so in the winter of 1942. Especially on the western side of the Salient; today a large part of the region north of Smolensk is a national park. It must have been a nightmare to move and supply troops in combat under those conditions and in such terrain. No wonder the Stalin Volunteers starved.
The total number of Red Army KIA per the archives for all the operations around Rzhev after 6 March 1942 are 393,000 (and that includes missing and never found)not the figures of half a million or even a million. Plus in the August 1942 offensive Zhukov handled his forces very well. Model and Vietinghoff would never committed their panzer reserves piecemeal if the situation was not desperate. It could only be desperate if Zhukov's offensive had shattered the German infantry positions on the first echelon, which it had. Zhukov's offensive advanced 60 kilometers in total in August 1942. Given the force densities and the terrain that is not a bad achievement at all. I suspect therefore that actually Buttar, Glantz and others need to reconsider Rzhev as I think they underestimate the damage it did to the Germans and overestimate the damage it did to the Soviets and accordingly underestimate the care with which Zhukov handled his forces.
Edit: I rechecked the figures in Isaev's article on total casualties in the various campaigns around Rzhev. He claims it is from 6 January 1942 to March 1943 total KIA and missing are about 393,000 per the archives. Even if we account for some undercounting it would be fair to say the year long post 1941-1942 Winter offensive and the battle that ensued then that Red Army KIA do not exceed that number.
Also another complaint. Histories that looked at German casualties in these battles, including Buttar only seem to look at German 9th Army casualties. But the German 4th Army and the 5th Panzer Army were involved in both the August 1942 Soviet offensive AND operation Mars. Furthermore according to Liedtke it is highly probable that 9th Army's casualties in Operation Mars were undercounted. So in other words the Germans were more damaged by all this battering than Zhukov is given credit for either in English or it seems in a lot of Russian works.
TLDR: I think this campaign is due yet another review in the history to challenge the view of Glantz and Buttar.
Wow, how did you get Prit Buttar? He's a cornerstone of the latest and greatest scholarship on the topic
Prit has been on WW2TV half a dozen times, indeed he is on again next week. He is a good friend
I am an eastern front Fanatic, and at this point my curiosity about Timoshenko is aroused for some reason
The Red Army learning curve was shallower and slower than we would wish.
If this was a German attack itd be a blame mad man Hitler battle . Unfortunately for your average Soviet General Stalin survived the war and trying to blame him for his decisions would have consequences .
All Quiet (now) On The Eastern Front. RIP
Any plans of interviewing David Glantz?
I'm trying
👀👀👀
meat grinder is a great book just read it
❤
Great presentation on Mr. Buttar's part, but the interviewer interrupted him a lot
That's the whole style of WW2TV, its a discussion, and I ask questions from both myself and the viewers. Its also something the guests enjoy, it being a chat
@@WW2TV On second thought, you're right. I failed to consider that viewers of the livestream also ask questions during the presentations. My apologies! Keep up the good work
After math of operation mars makes me sick to my stomach.
I very Well done work. As allways with Buttar. But i have to object in one detail. You got to remember that the Soviet population is starving at that time. It means two things. First, its better to loose soldiers in a risky attack then to let them starve to death. Second time is not on the Russian side and they lack competent officer. If they dont act, they will not build up necessary expirience.
Chaotic battle
58:35 are those Soviet soldiers with a German Pak?
Looks like it yes
Not convinced Soviets persisted in futile attacks because Zhukov was stubborn. Stalin had to have approved if not actually ordered those repeated attacks. And that explains why Stalin didn’t punish Zhukov for the failure.
Always glad to find new authors.. bout to buy a copy
if thats the case -why didnt the germans interdict the murmansk -Moscow railway effectively? I think zukov was aiming to hold the 3rd panzer armee in position so it couldn t rest or refit and be used to retore the front further south
Suppose that Fall Blau never occurred. Instead, if Hitler utilized his Army Group A on the railway south of Leningrad and advanced SE toward Moscow, then his Army Group B pushing eastward from the Rzhev salient, and then allow his Vorenezh offense continue NE.... That would be a gigantic pincer movement toward Moscow from three converging directions.
Dudes soldiers have always had to fight in the mud and puddles. Nothing new there
zhukov said this battle was a sideshow.The main goal was army group south
After it went badly sure
@@WW2TV at the battle of Moscow germans lose 500.000man.(not the mention dousens of thousands of italinas rumanians etd) and half of their equipment. Stalin believes germans were sufficiently weakned and time to rout them like napoleon Turns out they weren't. Also hitlers fanaticism.
The human wave tactic sucks dont it
I have watched TH-cam videos where groups of Russians go out and recover dead soldiers in these areas.
Williams Edward Clark Margaret Davis James
Martin Jeffrey Williams Maria Walker Elizabeth
Lee John Robinson Angela Allen Maria
Lopez Brian Johnson Carol Harris Brenda
Johnson Kimberly Miller Melissa Harris Charles
German airforce operations against the Russians are covered in Black Cross Red Star Volume 3 and 4