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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 ส.ค. 2024
- Operation Barbarossa to the Siege of Leningrad
With David Stahel
Part of Eastern Front Week on WW2TV
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David Stahel from New Zealand, is an historian, author and senior lecturer in history at the University of New South Wales. He specialises in German military history and has authored several books on the military operations of the first six months of the Eastern Front, including on the launching of Operation Barbarossa, the Battle of Kiev and the Battle for Moscow.
In this show David runs through the first months of Germany's war against the Soviet Union taking us from Operation Barbarossa in June up to the beginning of the Siege of Leningrad.
Operation Barbarossa and Germany's Defeat in the East by David Stahel
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Soldiers of Barbarossa: Combat on the Eastern Front by David Stahel
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Stalingrad 1 - The Flour Mill • Stalingrad 1 - The Flo...
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"the sheer tyranny of attrition"
I love this line and sums up the folly of the German army invading the Soviet Union.
Great job!
As someone who is borderline obsessed with the eastern front, I’m honestly glad to be alive now with all the new information that has been declassified information that has been released in just the past ten years…..it’s literally insane
@@250txc and the award for "most irrelevant comment in history" goes to...
@@sam8404 thats not what irrelevant means
@@Theiliteritesbian well their comment was deleted so there's no way to know if I used it correctly or not.
Totally agree with you.
“Literally” insane. Certainly not.
Mr Stahel deserves much credit for his humility. Listening to him is an education, yet he so believably says he hopes his book is not the last word, that his work is open to being challenged. A great historian, willing to engage and providing an impressive body of work, he deserves a lot of respect.
Agreed
Just finished my 3rd time through this remarkable program, and am still in awe of Prof. Stahel's Eastern Front knowledge and understanding, and his unique, and convincing, perspective on the "War in the East."🎉
The oil they were talking about washing The engine out is most likely for the engine air filtration system. Most of the older trucks used oil bath air filter instead of the paper elements we're use to today.
Fantastic presentation! As a History Major undergrad in the US, circa ‘83-‘87, academics such as Stahel, Citino, Glanz, etc. are such a joy to read and listen to! NONE of this information was available to us in that era..it was Cold War era at it’s zenith..
Perfect comment. The historians you mention above have added so much to the discussion.
@@sgitell I have recently started re-reading the late Professor John Erickson's two books (Road to Stalingrad & Road to Berlin). I think he and Col. David Glantz were the first two western historians who gained access to some, but not all, of the Soviet archives in the 1990s. They together provide in overview (Erickson) and in detailed subject studies (Glantz & House) something akin to a truthful Soviet official history that was never written.
Hopefully Woody can at some point do a myth-busting episode on the Kursk offensive, and point out that Hausser's corps at Prokhorovka had about two platoons of operational Pz VIA between them, and were largely still using the Panzer III. The Soviet formations likewise had a mass of T60 light tanks, and even a brigade mounted in LL Churchills to fill out their numbers.
Excellent - David Stahel is a first class historian and presenter
I’ve been obsessed with the Eastern Front for 25 years, and WW2 since I was a boy.
Even 20 years ago there were only books and DVD’s available ( average quality ) and the books lacked any detail.
Now it is finally getting the attention it deserves, however some areas remain understudied-like the Caucasus, The continuation war, the Rhzev salient, and other periods that are not highlighted by a major headline battle.
There is still much to be uncovered and discussed.
David Stahel’s book on Kiev is Excellent and bridges between the start of Barbarossa and Typhoon.
I’m glad that I rewatched the show from the beginning. Very impressive! Now I have to decide which books to buy🤦🏽♀️.
Informative explanation of the failure of Barbarossa by David Stahel who is a very accomplished and erudite lecturer !
Fanaticism does not beat logistics
Thank you David and Woody for expanding my almost non existent knowledge on the Eastern front. Up until now all I knew was Germany invade Russia, killed a lot of people, stalled out and got their butts kicked all the way back to Berlin. When I was stationed in Germany I met this old Army dude who invited me to his house where he pulled out his Iron Cross and a map of the eastern front and showed me his move across Russia, then started showing his retreat back to Germany. The guy hated Hitler and sadly my German was broken and he didn’t speak English but we got along just as well and he was able to communicate via the map his travels in the Eastern front. My landlord in college was a German soldier as well as was my landlord in Germany who was a 1st LT. in the Afrika Corp.
Thank you Paul and Dr. Stahel for this compelling presentation. I appreciate the introductory point where you describe the mindset and assumptions of the German high command at the outset of Barbarossa. The breathtaking successes of 39-40 (plus German memory of WW1 eastern success, pre-war appeasement reflecting limited British appetite for war, and the USA's distaste for involvement in European conflicts) are critical contexts. Applying subsequent knowledge enjoyed by your audience is a bit like the Back to the Future 2 movie where the antagonist becomes wealthy betting on sports because he has a sports almanac and already knows the scores. Magnificent, appropriately detailed, and engaging work.
Great detail, makes a few holes in a few myths. Can't wait for Leningrad.
David Stahel has added dramatically both to my knowledge of this important front of the war....but to my already groaning book shelves! Bravo!
I can't get enough of your guest. He is fascinating. Have him on again please.
Great lecture. Currently listening to David Stahel’s Operation Barbarossa. Such a brilliant book and shaking my head just listening to how badly prepared the German army was always likely to fail due to logistics, obsolete vehicles, poorly trained men and lack of vehicles and equipment! Love the show.
Your “Eastern Front” bookshelf could be huge just from David Glantz and David Stahel books alone!
I love glantz stalingrad trilogy and the companion book
Loving this excellent presentation. Stahel's works are an essential part of the modern understanding of the eastern front.
This is very good and much appreciated 👍 Cheers mate!
I discovered the WW2TV channel because of this video, and I have subsequently subscribed. Thank you for this wonderful and informative discussion with David Stahel. David Stahel is my favorite historian for all things Eastern Front. His book are excellent, and his lectures are always very insightful. In this video presentation I greatly enjoyed the bits of insight that David interjects as asides, as they truly add color and help to make the staggeringly enormous Eastern Front campaign more relatable to the non-historian who has an interest in this titanic struggle.
Great show. Great guest. Keep up the great work. Enjoy your channel very much
Excellent presentation. I love the maps and detail. Such a huge war to summarize in an hour was well done.
Kudos for getting David Stahel.
Great show, again, Woody, learned a bit more about Kiev & Leningrad battles, didn't really realize the distance scale and also forces scale were so large
This is second video of yours I've watched and I've learned so much from both. Thank you!!
Amazing presentation! David is a legend!
I would say that the "will to victory" concept in the Army and in Hitler's mind came from the perception that Ludendorf " lost his nerves " at the end of ww1. Trying to defend himself from this accusation he coined the notorious "Stab in the back" legend
Discovered this channel thanks to the Tooze interview. Truly fascinating stuff, keep up the great work!
Welcome aboard Georgios
I’m a recent discoverer/subscriber to your channel and perfect timing as I’ve recently had an interest in the Eastern Front sparked. This was a great video and I have a number of Mr. Stahel’s books to be read!
Another outstanding WW2TV show! Professor Stahel presentation on launch of Operation Barbarosa is very detailed, giving a lot of excellent information. Anyone interested the the Eastern Front in World War 2 needs to watch this show.
Thank you very much for this programme and information. Very useful knowledge. Good evening from Colombo Sri Lanka.
So nice of you to leave a comment. Hello to you in Colombo
Great presentation by Mr Stahel. Siegfried Kmappe in his memoirs addresses many of the same issues of being hosee-drawm artillery following the tanks.
ETA: Also, John Erickson -- "Berlin to Stalingrad" and "Stalingrad to Berlin" are important on the operational and strategic levels.
Thanks for your work! I love that you have an appreciation of the historiography of the Eastern Front, and are keen to acknowledge and explore areas you've previously been ignorant of.
Also love a David Stahel video! They're unfortunately few and far between.
Superb show. Glad I caught up on it. Would love to take one of David's classes!
Stahel and Satino are my two favorite!
TIK had a great graphic of an overlay of France on top of Russia,
Eastern Front week kick off was fantastic. The size, scale, distances, men and material is daunting. Just the tip of the iceberg into logistical complications of supporting an operation of such size. David really knows his stuff and would love to see him back for other topics, especially Leningrad.
Fabulous ….can’t wait for more ….well done !
Thanks, I hope you will stay with us on WW2TV
That's a great insight about starting new operations in the middle of ongoing ones that have failed. They just don't want to say it outright. I like to say that the Wehrmacht had A.D.D. In ww2
Even when I watched the “old” history I always had a yearning for actual details, context etc. so glad this is finally being explored.
Currently watching the documentary series Adolf Hitler’s War. Dr David Stahel is one the experts on it. He is fantastic, so I had to track down who he is, and what hes done. Saw a couple of lectures on youtube that he gave to a US University via skype, then came here. I will be buying his books now. He is so engaging and knowledgeable. His enthusiasm draws me in.
Yes he is brilliant. I hope you will stick around on WW2TV we have lots of guests every bit as good as David
Discussion of the historiography and rebalancing the total picture of the war might b enough. But THEN, all this incredible information and insight. There are so many tributaries and interpretations; just the whole idea of ambition and overcoming physical limits; this goes to the heart of common perceptions today about what it means to be "tough" and to be a "warrior". Great stuff. Thanks for all the work.
The importance of logistics is what I really took from this excellent discussion by David Stahel. Seeing it now is actually more relevant, in the context of the ongoing Ukrainian invasion by Russia. Understanding the terrain, and having the supply trains to keep an army going at full tilt is really fundamental. And any resistance by the Soviets, & any poor weather is just adding delay and ultimately casualties to their strict timetable. As the Wehrmacht never defeated the Red Army, then 1941 is one gigantic defeat going by their own operation directives. Kudos to Prof. Stahel for focusing on these directives which a lot of histories brush over and focus on the mass casualties and territorial losses the Red Army is suffering. Also amazed at the competing Wehrmacht leadership aims of those conducting the advance (Guderian & Panzer Groups vs Infantry Divs). Not a formula for strategic success.
And the question of whether the Wehrmacht general staff dismissed studying Napoleon in 1812 is really interesting. I can see how they may have dismissed it as irrelevant given the Russian army then just retreated till making stands at Smolensk & Borodino, but it was relevant that the Russians then as in 1941, conducted a scorched earth policy and began formulating orders to attack French supply trains and depots in the rear. Napoleon apparently fretted endlessly over his logistics supply. Hitler seemingly didn't care. A fateful mistake.
Yes, when Prof Stahel explained that the German generals considered Napoleon's campaign was unrelatable to their own i could almost hear the Russian steppe and the Russian winter replying to these officers, "Oh, really?"
terrific guest TY!
Great show another set of books in my wish list. I've spent years reading about the Eastern front it is by far the largest of all the areas on land of the war. David's work helps to confirm some of the other works in my studies and the shear scale of the whole conflict. Equally as brutal as the pacific if not more.
I have learned so much from you and tik history that no other historians have payed much attention to thank for the wealth of knowledge
As i said with his talk for today on the retreat from Moscow, Woody is being Santa 2022 with any talk featuring the excellent Dr Stahel. He is a walking encyclopedia about the Osterfont! Im saving that talk for after the Holy Week services and shall look forward to listening on Easter Sunday with the choc eggs Pure Bliss!!!!
53:57
In undergrad I researched some of the actions that were fought around Smolensk during the encirclement. Because of the scale of the action occurring on the Eastern Front ESPECIALLY in the opening months, the smaller scale actions occurring across the front are often overlooked. I unlearned a lot of my own biases towards the Red Army by looking at some of these smaller scale defensive actions, often fought without a set doctrine, and seeing the impact that those smaller fights had at scale as Barbarossa progressed.
David is awesome!
one of my favorite authors. Hope he comes back for another presentation
David has done 4 or 5 shows on WW2TV, and yes he will be back
90 percent of the fighting in ww2 took place on the eastern front. I think that Hitler was well aware that if Barbarossa took longer than 8 weeks, he would be in deep s..t. recently I saw a report that said that Hitler said a month after the campaign started that they had grossly underestimated the Russian army. It was Mussolini's misadventures in Greece that held up the start of Barbarossa. One needs to keep in mind that Hitler had hoped from the start to bring Britain in as an ally. One of Hitlers favorite and first comrades Phillip bouhler wrote a biography of Napoleon. So I think that was on Hitlers mind. Eric Hoepner was one of the leading conspirators of the july 20 plot.
This should be good. Another Historian that uses relatively newer sources unlocked in the post Soviet era to narrate battles erased from Soviet history thus absent from ours is COL (Ret) David M. Glantz. Like Richard.Frank's Asian - Pacific theater narrations he starts with the figures to give you chance to get your head around the scope of the Eastern Front war. Then he focuses on the parts absent so this promises to be more information to add to what I gleaned there.. Anyway I've been told by the TH-cam powers that be that links in the comment section are a no-no so Giantz lecture goes partially by the title: "Soviet-German War, Myths and Realities" . . . Thanks for bringing these fascinating well researched guests to us.
Excellent presentation by David Stahel.
I’d love to see some analysis of why AGN:
Didn’t/couldn’t reduce the Orienanbaum bridgehead;
Why an additional army, and ideally a 5th panzer army wasn’t raised to ensure the objectives of linking up with the Finns, reducing the aforementioned bridgehead - and what happened to the big guns of 11th Army after the fall of Sevastopol?
We’re told 11th army was relocated to AGN, or it was broken up and sent to various different sectors.
The fate of the units of the 11th army and its famous commander, Von Manstein is vague and lost after the failure of Nordlicht.
Perhaps a separate video could be done on the journey of the 11th army?
Great guest mate! Ive read all stahel books! Brilliant researcher/author!!
Awesome, thank you! He will be on again in April talking about the retreat from Moscow
Great show
Brilliant presentation as always Paul! I just started studying the Eastern Front and this was a good primer to understanding the vastness of the campaign. I definitely want to read David's books now. I'm currently reading "War Without Garlands: Barbarossa 1941/42" by Robert Kershaw which is about the German perspective of the campaign. So far it is really interesting and informative.
Great Show
Brilliant. Great guest
Interesting you mentioned the Einsatzgruppen, the most notorious was Einsatzgruppen A, headed by a Walter Stalecker...
An amazing program!
fantastic!
Watching it for the 3rd or 4th time and I would like to add for anyone who may read this that the book Mr. Stahel mentioned he was writing is titled "Hitler's Panzer Generals". As with all of Mr. Stahel's books, it is excellent!
Approximate distance from Berlin to Stalingrad is 1,500 miles.
Great work
Thanks
Excellent, thank you.
You are welcome!
From this video it seems like the mass casualties of the Soviet POWs came from a lack of resources. But elsewhere I understood that it was actually the policy by the Germans to kill the POWs by deliberately starving them (the "Hunger plan"). Does anyone know to what extent this theory is correct?
It depends where, both explanations have some truth
Paul very slowly catching up on the shows. Exceptional all.
Very good 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
Check out "Kiev 1941" by David Stahl.Its an awsome book.
Great presentation. It only reinforces the old line that "amateurs study tactics, professionals study logistics".
I would like to see how much logistics was part of German officer training. Even a cursory glance at the numbers says Barbarossa wasnt going to work
I read somewhere that after the failure of Barbarossa many German generals were frantically reading accounts from 1812.
Also there are a number of hints that suggest German intelligence failed miserably.
They didn’t detect the number of Soviet divisions ~500; they had no knowledge of the new medium tanks, T-34, KV series, etc.
How much was ineptitude borne of arrogance, and how much was just poor intelligence gathering?
I just did a quick search for the distance from Caen, France to Aachen, Germany and it was 587.6 km and I think from the then Polish border to Smolensk was about 550 to 600 km. During the breakout from Normandy in 1944 the Allied advanced stalled out in northern France and Belgium about 4 to 6 weeks after leaving Normandy, depending on which army you study. The road network was much better in France than the Soviet Union and the Allies put many more resources into their logistical train. Just food for thought on why the invasion of Russia was problematic at best.
4:55 "We really are at the beginning of your journey to understand the eastern front." - What a remarkable thing to say. This statement mirrors exactly the lack of awareness of anything non-anglosaxon in popular view you lamented a few minutes before: If it's not done by anglosaxon historians, it's not done at all.
But this is an English language channel, so of course it is framed through the pov of western historians
@@WW2TV You cannot "understand" something because research has to be translated? My opinion of anglosaxon historians is higher than this.
Does David Glantz still do interviews? I would love to hear him discuss the Second Battle of Kharkov, the Soviet offensive in the Spring of 1942
Not really. He is a full time carer
excellent. so much more. hopefully someday we will get access to all the archives in Russia.
Perusing older episodes. It was interesting that the academic said he hoped his textbook would be out of date in 5 years. I spent most of my life studying medical stuff. I was told as a student that the half life of medical knowledge is 5 years. I’m not certain if that’s accurate but it does describe the rate of progress in the field. I suspect the turnover of historical knowledge is a bit slower but any true expert hopes they’re advancing knowledge in their field but realizes progress will overtake their work in time.
Guderian was a professional opportunist. This man would sell his mother to anyone if he sees a profit for himself.
For those interested i understand that the Germans were running a fleet of over 200 models of trucks. There were a lot of Opel 3 tonners and numbers of other German makes. Then there were all the captured English and French trucks; the requisitioned Polish, Czech and some Scandiniavian trucks. So you are a German truck driver out past Smolensk and your clutch burns out getting bogged on the bad roads.. Or a valve spring breaks. Or you do a fan belt. The chances of getting another one immediately are close to zero and if you can get one it will be months and the war has moved on. So that's the end of your truck. So apart from the rail difficulties, the whole idea of using this menagerie of trucks to supply the army over these atrocious roads is disastrous. Which apart from the actual fighting is one of the main reasons why the Germans never get really close to taking Moscow.
Good point Andrew - thanks
42:45 Stonewall Jackson’s “foot cavalry” these guys ain’t.
Paul and David I have watched that same channel here on TH-cam myself.
1:12:10 “Yes sir yes sir three bags full”. Yes men ….
Eastern front, was just hideous, I say that because if you go beyond the mechanised clashes of both sides it was a racial conflict.
Plus the Jewish situation, together with Hitlers plan to rid the land of Soviet civilians, ready for German resettlement..
Both Hitler and Stalin were as bad as each other, in many cases Stalin was worst..
Great to have these shows, flipping great Paul.
Is it safe to say the Russian German clash is the greatest cataclysm in history?
I reckon so, well it's the Soviet Union v the Third Reich, but yes
I think that the Dean of historians on WWII is Gerhard Weinberg.
I think his work is important, but he's probably been overtaken by more modern scholars
Logistics bit the US as well- hence the “Red Ball Express.”
When's part two? I want more.
David is coming back in April to talk about the retreat from Moscow
I heard someone say that if Hitler bypassed Yugoslavia, they made a tangible point that the Germans could well have taken Moscow.
I've heard that too
And I have heard the same
What was the desertion rate if the Germans?
mind boggling stats O.o
Why do we say there was 3 army groups in the east when there was the AOK in Finland which was technically not as large but still tasked with the objectives of a major army group?
I.E. the capture of Murmansk, then the Northern part of the fabled A-A line ( Arkhangelsk ) ?
Accordion effect- yes. So are the Germans more interested in miles driven and not terrain secured and killing the enemy? Trading security for speed isn’t a good idea.
Happy May day
why were the ngermans never able to interdict the moxcow to murmasnk railway
Was the Germans gambit somewhat similar to Pickett's charge at Gettysburg writ large? Even if the confederates somehow made it across that field what would they do exhausted and out of ammo once they got there?
So where was the attacking towards Leningrad stuff? We got plenty of AGC but where is AGN and say Schusselberg? (SP?)
We didn't quite get to everything we hoped to, but David will be back
Annother problem for western historians is the German Language and their gothic style characters.
Let alone Russian
It must be a massive job
Have tried to read Achtung Panzer it’s a difficult read
Australian military history is interesting but limited and generally well documented. The Soviet patriotic war is very complex and very poorly documented. There is a lot of misinformation and a lack of reliable sources. Soviets and Germans both spread misinformation to suit their own needs. And most of the history is written in German and Russian. We need more original research on this subject looking at original sources. This was a huge part of WW2. Some people try to simplify history which leads to common misconceptions. Many early WW2 historians did not have high standards. Fiction literature was also a complicating factor, sometimes claiming to be true records. These issues affect other WW2 histories. Such as a lack of translated Japanese history. There are various views about Stalin's actions before and during the first month of the German invasion that is of great importance. Some of this may be anti-Stalin Soviet propaganda after his death. Stalin himself is not a reliable source. Logistics was a massive issue for Germany and the USSR. The US, Canada and Britain provided the Soviets with over 400 000 transport vehicles. Also very significant railway stock. I have recently been looking at various views of the T-34 tank and its importance. This is a complex issue by itself with various interpretations. The T-34 was far from perfect. Despite some very good design features. It lacked a number of features and the quality of production and resources was generally low during the war. Post WW2 production quality was much better. Despite its strengths, T-34 losses were very high for a number of reasons apart from the tank itself. But also due to failings of WW2 T-34 tanks. Lack of radios being a significant problem. This is a complex issue that needs more consideration and has caused considerable debate. Multiple factors need to be understood. Another divisive issue has been about the M-4 Sherman tank that is also poorly understood and complex. Many historians have seen Sherman as being a failure while some consider the T-34 to be a great success. The T-34 and Shermans were both vital weapons in winning the war. This is an example of poor historic research, unfair writing and multiple complex factors. People that may have an interest in Australian military history could consider the significance of the Battle of Hamel, France, 4th July 1918. A small but very influential battle for Australia that has been generally overlooked. It occurred a little before the last victorious 100 days of allied offensive action in 1918. And could the Battle for the Coral Sea the most significant battle in Australian history.
Victory disease. Over extension of supply lines just like Rommel in Africa 1:05:49