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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 ส.ค. 2024
- Fighting Power - The Waffen SS at War
With Dr Philip W. Blood
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Dr Philip Blood returns to talk about SS units in combat. Focussing on the 1st SS Panzer Division Leibstandarte - formation, training, Poland, France, Russia, Normandy and the Ardennes.
Philip is an independent historian, writer and lecturer working out of Aachen, German. He has worked as historical advisor to the Association of the US Army and also served as Chief Administrator and Senior Fellow with the American Academy in Berlin, under Henry Kissinger and Richard Holbrooke.
Philip's previous appearances:
Bandenbekämpfung: Hitler's Anti-Bandit Order 1942/45
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The guest was good but was rather patronising. We all know of the SS's notoriety and rather wanted to know more of how they compared to a regular army unit. However, it was a good episode.
One point; On the recon units not engaging and "just sort of sitting around" , that is the point of recon.
To gather information on the opposing forces.
They aren't supposed to fight pitched battles.
Somehow the presenter turned that into an appearance of sloth and incompetance.
I'm not saying they were extremely efficient, but the doctor appears to not know the purpose of such a unit.
"On the recon units not engaging and "just sort of sitting around" , that is the point of recon." - nice observation. ;)
Same with most SF units, if they have to start shooting shits gone wrong. They’re there to hit targets with laser designators & let air do the killing
Criticising an NCO for reading a map? Really? Agreed by mid 44 they were a shadow of their form of 42-43, but if they were so rubbish how come the war didnt end 6 months earlier?
@covertops19Z the overwhelming impression I got was not learning more about the Waffen SS but how little Phillip Blood understands about the business of soldiering. For sure the propaganda machine overegged the value of the SS in particular and the Whermacht in general, but that is what a propaganda machine is for.
For viewers who want to read more I have found "Soldiers of Destruction: The SS Death's Head Division, 1933-1945, by Charles W Syndor in 1977 to be an excellent book.
The unit was initially formed from concentrstion camp guards. This is a different origin from the LSSAH. Theodore Eicke initially picked and indoctrinated the unit to be brutal and heartless.
A very good read.
IIRC only about 20-25% of the Totenkopf's initial members came from the camp system.
so what? are you excusing them?.@@malcolmhunt7108
Indeed "Soldiers "Of Destruction" is an interesting fact-filled book. Highly recommended.
At 1:08:25 sPz Abt 503 are mentioned as having an 'outstanding' performance whilst (1:08:44) sSS Pz Abt 501 (actualy sSS Pz ABt 101 in Normandy which is specifically referenced) is said to have been 'ragged'. In Normandy the exact opposite was the case. '503' were in effect destroyed by the bombing on 18/7/44 and contributed very liitle to the fighting. SS 101 were in continious action from 13/6/44 to the end of the campaign.
Totally agree. I´ve read during the past year the abteilung history by von Rosen, Rubbel and Lochmann and there it was pretty much obvious they didn´t do much. Or anything. Though von Rosen´s description of the bombing during Goodwood was hm... interesting for a lack of a better word (english is not my first language). And also Lochmann´s description of the Ronson lig... I mean the Sherman was nice.
While the SS Abt. 101 and 102 were engaged in heavy fighting from the get go. Tieke´s descriptions of the 102, which I also read recently, were very hm... informative.
This and the statement that the LAH were mainly running away in 1944... well let´s say I disagree.
@@levski19 sSS 102 arrived late and in batches. It rarely fought as a Unit and nearly every account of the Unit in Normandy is in fact a record of the 2nd kp as they alone kept a record. If you have the 2nd kp diary then you have the totality of the Unit record in Normandy
@@michaelkenny8540 acknowledged. My western front knowledge is still spotty so I accept every correction to my statements.
The wearing of medals on combat dress by the Germans/Prussians goes back as far as the Franco- German war in the late 1800’s or even further. It was not something new or a Waffen-SS invention. On troops looking “more like modern soldiers” by the 1944/period; underneath their camo smocks [first introduced pre war] they still would have worn their medals.
Would be interesting to have Douglas Nash giving his overall views on the Waffen-SS. No disrespect intended to Phil Blood but I question his assertion that by 1944/45 the 1st SS “spent most of its time running away”; it certainly wasn’t “elite” but this is not to say that it’s combat value as a unit has reached a point where it “spent most of its time running away“‘.
An amazing exposé from Dr Phil here. So glad I caught this episode live. Worth a years membership just for episodes like this.
Absolutely 💯 Phil
Wonderfully prepared material as always. However, I have a few words to add regarding Poles fighting in the ranks of the SS or Wehrmacht. It was said that they were volunteers and were not conscripted. That's not exactly true. We must know that the current lands that now belong to Poland were the territories of the Reich before the outbreak of the war. I mean: Silesia, Western Pomerania and Eastern Prussia. Not to mention the free city of Gdansk, which was inhabited mostly by people identifying as Germans. In such circumstances, we must say that it was not Poles who voluntarily joined the ranks of the German army, but citizens of the Reich with Polish surnames from mixed families. This is a very complicated topic and even to this day there is a heated dispute in Poland about this issue. I will only add that the number of people of Polish origin conscripted into the German army is currently estimated at about 0.5 million people in Poland. It should also be added that many soldiers who were captured by the Germans were in the final years of war even forcibly conscripted into the ranks of the German army due to huge shortages of personnel. These people were mainly sent to the eastern front. Conscripted people were treated as second-class soldiers. They were called wassenpolaken and were reluctantly trusted. I think that a person faced with the choice of death or joining the army chose the second option in the hope of even a slim chance of survival. I could go on and on, it's a very complex and interesting topic. I'm kind of a huge history fanatic myself. I love reading and analyzing various archival documents. There is still so much to explore and analyze. There is also a huge mass of documents that are still in the archives and have not been declassified or there is no access to them. All we can do is wait impatiently.
When Dr Blood gives a presentation, for me it's like being in a Masters level seminar, he makes you think differently about this subject to break you out of your preconceived ideas. There was a helluva lot of sidebar engagement from a lot of folks. That's a good thing. I'm sure Paul will have some people who don't agree, but at least they heard a different point of view. Thank you Dr Blood and Paul Brilliant 🍻
I would more likely have titled this as LSSAH: Elite formation?
I really found very little discussion of actuall combat capabilities, techniques, doctrine, tactical ability, weapons employment etc, etc...
I come from this as an infantry officer of 28 years experience at multiple levels of command/staff and type units. So I really look for the detailed in the weeds discussion.
It's obvious that no primary sources were used to research the LAH for this presentation, if he'd studies the actual condition of the LAH when it arrived in Belgium in April 1944 and the shortages of equipment it still had in June 1944 he would have realised why it's combat effectiveness was not 100%. And as to choosing the Ardennes offensive as an example of it's combat effectiveness was simply ridiculous, why not choose the witnter of 1942/43 or kursk as a better example of it's effectiveness when in a decent condition.
@@malcolmhunt7108 Find Heere reports reviewing of the performance of various Waffen SS units in combat. In general they considered the Waffen SS units to be less efficient than a comparable Heere unit. In other words, they suffered greater losses in men and equipment than a comparable Heere unit for the same results.
My quick and dirty Waffen SS assessment of "fighting power" : They were the Nazi version of the French foreign legion in terms of higher physical standards, esprit de corp and brutal boot camp training.
It is hilariously ironic that the Waffen SS was more muti cultural than the Wehrmacht while being the premier flag wavers and war criminals of Nazi ideology.
Exactly. Want to hear about Yugoslavia/Greece, Barbarossa, Kharkov, Kursk, Korsun, etc., not just the Ardennes.
Superb presentation opening a window on a much larger discussion. I would love to see further shows analysing other divisions Heer and Waffen SS. The 'ordinary' men in the ranks, what motivated them and how did they react to what was going on. In particular the formations serving on the Ostfront.
"Elite" only makes sense, in my opinion, when it refers to an organization that has a rigorous selection process, which would then mean its members were top physical/intellectual specimens.
Which the Waffen SS initially had so they would be considered elite.
Fantastic presentation Phil / Woody great work many many thanks 👍🏻
Another enjoyable show. Thanks Woody and Dr Blood. I read the comments before listening so I was expecting more of a military bashing of the Waffen SS.
If I can add my own observations on the Waffen SS military performances in a nutshell:
Early war = not so good.
Mid war circa 1943 and 1944 = often very good.
End war = not so good. However, situations must have dictated that, such as the Ardennes which was problematic for both sides. In Hungary 1944/45 I'd say Wiking and Totenkopf performed quite well.
An aspect not mentioned was the propensity of the Waffen SS panzer divisions to be given disproportionate coverage in the German news reels in cinemas and propaganda elevated them to being glamour boys with the juiciest bit of kit and tanks and I'm certain this did influence a lot of young men to volunteer for the Waffen SS. If you have to join up, better to join what you perceive to be the best. The so called "elite".
Staying on the "elite" thing, I agree. It's a murky area. US 82nd and 101st Airborne and British 1st Airborne were all said to be elite divisions, yet all three failed in their primary missions during Market Garden. Elite is open to interpretation and even elite divisions aren't made up of supermen
Cheers to both of you.
In the Battle of the Bugle, the 82nd Airborne fought and defeated the 1st SS, 2nd SS and 9th SS Panzer Divisions plus the 62nd VG Division. Their combat capability and tactical prowess was far superior to that of any Waffen SS unit. The 101st AB is well known for holding Bastogne.
Both of those units held their own lines in the Ardennes. They defended well until relieved and reinforced after a relatively short time period. Neither fought those German units all alone so it's disingenuous to imply they did.
In Market Garden they both failed in their primary offensive assignments.
Six of one half a dozen of the other.
Indeed, the two American Airborne units were part of a much larger force
@@WW2TV
Exactly, and the 101st Airborne even had armour support at Bastogne, right from the beginning.
Nutshell = good summary IMO. Re W & T performed better. Despite not having the replacement vehicles the SS & Wehrmacht Ardennes divisions received. Though kit without sufficient training on what was relatively complex armour maybe a moot point. Interested to learn recently how close to the advance, to the point of being shot at, the bergepanzers of the W & T operated at in Hungary, desperation levels of mend and make do. W & T maybe had a bit more time to integrate the large numbers of Luftwaffe replacements received late 44 on a relatively static front? Superior senior leadership at Korps level in Hungary compared to the SS in the Ardennes?
As usual, Phil conducts a brilliant assessment of the Waffen SS. This conversation could have lasted for hours and I would have been listening. The end result with respect to the "elite" fighting of the Waffen SS comes down to which time period you are talking about. Which unit you want to focus on and whether or not your prepared to dismiss or discount the heinous record of atrocities the SS committed along their path of war. The topic of the criminal police (Cripo) and the Waffen SS is a topic I hope you cover in detail on a future show Woody.
If that was a brilliant assessment of the Waffen SS I'd love to see what a real expert who actually studied the combat record and condition of the LAH using primary sources would produce. It's blatantly obvious that when he was talking about e.g. Normandy he hadn't studied the actual condition of the LAH when it arrived in Normany in April 1944 for rest and refitting having taken heavy losses in Russia.
@@malcolmhunt7108 Oh do tell Mr. Expert. Phil had a minimal amount of time to cover a deep subject. I doubt your armchair war analysis is any better then average or mediocre.
@@On-Our-Radar-24News well I'm sorry my 50 years of research during which time I have accumulated over 1 million pages of primary documents from NARA and the BA-MA mean that my ' armchair war analysis' is only average or mediocre in your eyes. Obviously the fact that I have the surviving Kriegstagbuch and monthly Zustandberichte for most of the Waffen SS divisions in my possession, along with other documents from the SSFHA listing manpower levels and losses etc doesn't mean a great deal in your opinion.
@@On-Our-Radar-24Newsanyone is an expert on the Waffen SS compared to Dr Philip Blood.
Ironic that Dr. Blood has forgiven the Azov Battalions for their Waffen SS appreciation and symbols when supporting his Pro- Ukrainian stance against Putin.
You're not pro Ukraine?
@@WW2TV I am sympathetic to Ukraine but not those Ukrainian soldiers who idolise and proudly display SS (or WW2 German) symbols on their uniforms and armoured vehicles
Of course
@@WW2TVwestern media tries hard not to capture photos of hail hitlers ! So when Putin says he’s fighting nazis he’s not technically telling fibs! Funny people hate Russians now but when Stalin starved Ukraine into submission no body bats an eye! Werid honestly
We must be able to discuss history. This is a discussion about something that not even my father was alive for. Doesn't make me or you a racist to debate the cause of millions of dead people.
A bit of a side-topic, but that von Moltke quote is surely (one of?) the misquoted in military history :-)
What he wrote was "Kein Operationsplan reicht mit einiger Sicherheit über das erste Zusammentreffen mit der feindlichen Hauptmacht hinaus." Or "No operational plan extends with any certainty beyond the first encounter with the enemy main body".
The first point I would emphasize is on the word operational (because the preceding sentences are about operational-level plans, as explicitly opposed to tactical-level plans). It's somewhat trivial, because it should be obvious a tactical-level plan that can't survive contact with the enemy is no plan at all! But people keep saying it nonetheless...
The second point I would make is wrt "with certainty". You absolutely can plan your operation beyond the initial phases, per von Moltke; you just guarantee it will will stay intact. That is a VERY far cry from saying it will never stay intact! To my mind, a plan that is guaranteed to fall apart isn't much of a plan, so why bother with operational planning at all if that is the case?! Just because Clausewitz wrote that "No other human activity is so continuously or universally bound up with chance" doesn't mean war is entirely up to chance.
And a third point I could make is the bit about "the enemy main body" almost always getting lost, which, amongst many other things, distorts the role of e.g. reconnaissance, and reduces it to just locating any old peripheral element of the opposition, as opposed to identifying where their "main body" actually is, because if you plan has gone out the window before you even locate the main force, why bother to go further and actually find that as well?
"No operational plan extends with any certainty beyond the first encounter with the enemy main body.": has a nice ring to it.
Isn’t he just implying how important it is to always have a force in reserve and how vital using your initiative is
@@henrypollock7987 Not really, no. Those are important concepts, generally speaking, but it's not what he was really getting at here. He was speaking specifically about operational-level planning. By paraphrasing and simplifying his words, his actual meaning is pretty well much lost.
Now the misquoted version is certainly a handy little adage, don't get me wrong. But it just isn't what von Moltke said, or meant. One should really quote the actual source of the short version, but that wouldn't carry the "authority" of von Moltke, would it?
@@liamhickey359 I sort of think so too. Not as pithy, perhaps, but it does have something of a ring, as you say.
Excellent presentation
Martin Creveld's excellent book focused on the difference between German and U.S. selection criteria both for leadership and for fighting troops and how that was reflected in the higher fighting quality of German troops vis.a.vis U.S. It boils down to the Germans selecting leadership cadre based on CHARACTER, not what could be considered traditional intelligence quotient, and assembled units on the basis of region. The U.S. on the other hand de-selected both troops and leadership cadre on the basis of intelligence, in general, the smarter you were, the less likely you were to see combat, and units were generally thrown together with little consideration for regional cohesion. My Dad, who served in the 63rd ID, was a perfect example. He graduated 6th grade, his unit has no cohesion, and his non-com ordered them down a road which they KNEW the Germans had an ambush ready for them, which cost my Dad his left leg below the knee, and severe PTSD for the rest of his life. My German Oncle Georg, on the other hand, was selected to serve in a parachute detachment with others from his region, fought hard under direction of a respected Feldwebel, and ultimately surrendered to the U.S. surviving the war both intact and mentally fit.
Very interesting talk. But I think we should not have the pendulum swing to far in dismissing the SS Units in Normandy.
I absolutely love Dr. Blood's talks/lectures. I'm trying to get more of my friends to listen too. His evolution of the SS lecture was amazing, spellbinding stuff...
Thank you both for another amazing piece. (Don't understand the initial comment on this thread? too many facts in a world of choosing your own perhaps)
Anyway thanks again @Woody for providing such content. Merry Christmas to you both.
At one point in my life I was sitting on a mountain top Fire Base with about 6 other freeks and I said or asked if anybody else was having trouble imagining a time that your right hand would not have a grip on a M-16. Everybody laughed we all felt the same way.
Years latter at around 5 am the Northridge Earthquake hit. I worked nights till 4:30am. I made coffee every morning and woke up the wife. She went ull time at USC.
I am going to mention this as a FYI. I had two cups of coffee and as I walked to the bedroom she turned on the light and sat up..
I heard in the distance what sounded like a link belt crane reving it engine to pick... WTF at 5 am...! It got louder and louder AND LOUDER. I expected the windows to explode in wards. Then Bang as loud or louder than anything Vietnam dished out.
The second the boom ended all hell broke loose, the south wall shot north and launched me and the coffee hard against the north side of the hall.
It knocked 2 feet of water out of the pool.
IF THE SHAKING WOKE YOU UP YOU MISSED PROBABLY THE MOST TERRIFYING EXPERIENCE OF YOUR LIFE.
I checked the neighbors and driven automaticly opened the Safe took the AR-15 and the AK-47 loaded them and leaned them against the wall. My wife asked why did you do that..?
I paused..? And said I don't know...?
Once I did saddle up I felt ok.
Back to the video. Keep in mind the British Commandos taking prisoners was not in there order of battle. Every war prisoners get dead "some how".
The point is a weapons gets to be comfortable in your life. It isn't "if one has your name on it"
Its really more like "," "*. To whom it may concern"
It's something that only a historian can understand - the individuals who were actually there aren't always the most honest source of information. The same is true of Allied vets as well.
Some people refuse to change. The Party still exists in the mind of many.
My uncle who was with the artillery of 6th Australian division in Greece described fighting the SS in that theatre with open gun sights and he told me that they knew in 1941 that the SS didn't take prisoners.
What bollocks. None of the Heer took prisoners mate.
Were you there no. He was he fought all the way down the greek mainland and was captured by the the fallschirmajager in the rear guard in Crete and was sent to a prisoner camp in Krakow. Where he was sent down the mines 6 days a week. On New Years Day 1945 he was forced marched out to the west crashing into those being forced marched out of Auschwitz which was also true. He and all my uncles fought the Germans Italians and Japanese. My father fought in New Guinea.
Also when you refer to the Heer that is the German army. I referred to the SS. I did not say the German army did not take prisoners.
There was an incident where Greek troops who had been captured by the 1st SS had to be protected against vengeful Italian troops. This incident is mentioned in at least a couple of books.
Thanks once again to you both, Paul and Phil!
Thoughtful and thought-provoking as always.
Blwyddyn Newydd Dda!😊
Thank you very much for another superb presentation.
Dr. Blood is such a great guest speaker and always leaves one more informed than before and with a desire to know more.
FYI there is a US Army War College battle staff ride of the battle of Tannenberg line, specifically of the 3 blue hills which was led by SS Obergruppenfuhrer Steiner.
This battle is the most underated German defensive win of the war as the Waffen SS withstood a massive Red Army offensive as a much smaller force. The tactical brilliance displayed by Steiner plus hill fighting so intense it came down to a single panzer prevailing over the Soviets literally, that was the only tank left.
Also the SS lost some of their best officers here but i digress, the Waffen SS wasn't "elite" right?
Officers had to be first to engage the enemy
Dirlewanger, most of the late war divisions, anti partisan divisions. On the whole the first 3 ss where "elite" units. Then there were a few others such as wiking and the 9,10 and 12. But generally alot relied on conscription, troops being moved from defunct units of air force and navy. To be elite you need to have a rigorous selection process which the ss did have at certain times.
Yeah there are some examples of them being exceptional, but on the whole the ss wasn't all that. The German army had plenty of units that where on par with the ss flag ship units.
But they don't get the same recognition because of ss mythology and people selectively doing research.
This channel is becoming my addiction. It's ace to find people as fascinated, if not even more obsessed with WWII, as myself. Worth mentioning here is that German regular troops often described the Waffen-SS as exceptional soldiers. From what I can gather the 1st,2nd,3rd,4th - 5th were very effective as were the 9th, 10th & 12th. Other divisions were often sub par.
Thanks for the nice comment
@@WW2TV It's a great channel. Goes into some subjects I have wanted to learn about for a long time.
Interesting that the British soldiers who actually faced and fought the SS divisions in Normandy held their fighting capabilities in high regard. Their word is good enough for me.
What do you mean by high regard? Tough? Tacticlly superior? What sources are you referencing please?
My grandad faced the SS at Caen. He said they wouldn't give an inch and were arrogant b**tards even when taken as prisoners.
A brilliant show - Dr Blood is superb and a master of his subject matter. Thanks Paul and Phil, I've learned so much tonight
Would recommend Timo Worsts book tracking the career and crimes of Knittel of the LSSAH, including the Ardennes 44. I agree with Woody, elite is a poor subjective word, couldn't be used to describe a formation that had been rebuilt in late 44. Would point to the performance of the 12SS to the north of the LSSAH as a better example of a worse tactical display in the offensive. Stavelot was key to Peiper's advance. A switch north after its capture would have caused more problems for the Allies, fuel depots, HQs etc. Stavelot's later loss meant supplies to Peiper were effectively cut, a tactical blunder, poor command and control, Clauswitzean friction? Would have liked Dr Blood to acknowledge the speed of the American reaction and their dogged defense as key factors to German failure. And thanks for earlier comment on Creveld...confused me TBH. Thought provoking and as always I'm learning more and more..Cheers
The irony is the Waffen SS would influence some western military doctrine after the war in areas such as NCOs, camouflage uniforms etc..
So has the 92 yr old survivor applauded in Canadian parliament been extradited to Poland yet?
Dr. Blood always delivers an interesting and no nonse presentation.
Very poor presentation , I was hoping the initial caveat would indicate an unbiassed discussion based on military science unfortunately it was not to be. It was just a platform for Dr Blood to do a hatchet job on LSSAH. This unit carried out some horrendous atrocities during WW2 which were inexcusable and I am no apologist for them, but this was not a balanced discussion. If you were to ask any allied soldier during WW2 who they would least like to come up against in terms of fighting prowess ( which is what I thought this was about ) I am pretty sure to a man their reply would be a Waffen SS unit such as LSSAH.
But was the a Allied fear of SS units based on combat ability or a reputation for brutality?
As for not enjoying the show, well that's how it goes. What one person loves, another dislikes
I thought the preamble made this clear, an assessment on combat ability. I am a big fan of WW2TV and appreciate everybody has a view. For some balance a piece about Kharkov or the battle for Hill 112 would be great.
Food for thought
He cited Hitler willing executioners that is a extremely bias book and the author has been disgraced as a hack
Normally i wouldn't go near a video with a title like this, but i saw it was Dr.Blood, I am in.
Another factor contributing to the idea of an “elite” is scarcity. The Germans, at the time, considered all mechanized forces as elite since they were relatively few in number (including Waffen SS units) and, therefore, much was expected from them. The allies also rated panzer and panzer grenadier units as a greater threat due to their capabilities, and not necessarily due to the fighting prowess of the unit’s members. Conversely, there wasn’t such a gap in capabilities between allied units, other than airborne, which is the main reason, I believe, we don’t recognize many allied units as uniquely elite during WW2.
They were not ELITE but murdering bastards.
Let me add what several Anerican Army WW2 combat veterans told me about fighting SS units. They were extremely aggressive in battle and they hated them, often shooting captured ones or even hanging them from their tank barrels. Keep in mind that after the Germans lost France American GIs were mad that the Germans didnt surrender and to have to continue fighting them really angered them. As the SS was the battlefield embodiment of the Nazi state little quarter was given to them. Im sure that SS veterans would deflect to their anti bolshevik crusade, however they also hated democracies viewing them as precursors to Bolshevism besides all of their racial mumbo jumbo and wanted to destroy them as well. In some ways you have to look at Nazi Germany not so much as a cult run nation but as a ethnic tribal war force backstopped by a total police state and propaganda force.
I will leave you with one quote from a WW2 American tanker, if there had been anymore of them, SS and Heer, that we would have lost.
Over generalization. See TIK History for an analysis of SS units.
Hanging from tank barrels? I didn't hear that one before.
The British Commonwealth weren’t particularly big fans of them either having fought them first in 1940.
I hear a lot of Waffen SS men became and were active as mercenaries up into the 70s.
A few yes, not so much a lot. There is a myth that the French paras at Dien Bien Phu were mostly former SS, but it's not true
A question regarding Polish guys in the SS - any source on it? The reason is that AFAIK there was literally one attempt at recruting people in Poland for the SS and it turned out less than a dozen guys so I'd love to hear more.
It all depends on the definition of Poland too, with the various border changes
Yes, that is very true. A lot of people of Polish nationality or who lived in the borders of Poland before 1939 got drafted into German army for example. That's why it would be cool to know more @@WW2TV
Indeed
I have watched your content with Mr. Blood, and he does good work. But I am not certain he understands the principle of Auftragstaktik actually. I believe I have a good grasp of it, and there seems to me to be some misunderstandings in his perception of it. I can suggest some books and lectures should you/he so wish. Or just get hold of Jörg Muth, who is a really nice guy and expert on the subject as well as German officer education.
I have known Jörg for about 20 years and reviewed his book several times. We talk almost every month, I am sure he will be pleased to hear he has an avid fan.
@@Historianphil two it seems. I count him a friend also. Thanks for the reply; I mean no slight to you, but it seems to me that you imply that Auftragstaktik does not entail leading from the front; it very much does.
Fabulous Masterclass by Dr. Phil Blood and the links to his group Fallout, on Substack, are in Woody's description above. My brain is apparently programmed to the word (Downfall). Which is a grand example of how people can be programmed about how they think of themselves or others. As humans we tend to chunk things together to learn. And yet people are all different and swept up in the circumstances of their lives, trying to survive. Can study of war, taught in the style of Dr. Phil, bring more peace? Just rambling.
Amazing info download
Supremely presented and tremendously detailed. Greatly appreciate this education by Dr. Blood. Thank you.
I can't remember the author or book (I read it in the mid 1980's,) where the author made the point that the German's greatest success in WWII was pre full mobilization of the Waffen SS. He made the point that the SS took greater causalities, loss of equipment, wastage of material, whereas they had the best recruits, latest equipment, and most supplies provided by NAZI Germany. He also noted the disdain for the higher leadership of the SS by the German Army High Command and that the lower-level commanders (squad level to company command) were considered tactically inept in everything compared to the Wehrmacht. They did have brilliant operational commanders. The author came to the conclusion that the SS was overhyped in reputation considering the resources that were granted to them.
They took awhile to get the good equipment as the German military blocked thier access to both men and material at the start and they seem to get more equipment later on as the Nazi party puts more polictical glout behind them. The tide of the war was turning by then and as all recruitment during an ongoing conflict your recruits are always going to be of lower quality as training times and requirements are cut just to get boots on the ground.
This was a fascinating presentation by Dr Blood! I'm a new subscriber to your channel so not sure of the content on previous presentations, and this one on the performance of the SS and their atrocities was eye opening! Does your channel contain any talks of Allied or Soviet atrocities committed during WW2?
We have definitely covered Soviet atrocities and various other events have come up every now and then
@misterp1694 there were 3? episodes where a very knowledgeable guest went through the whole gamut of crimes committed by the US Army in various theatres, the ETO in particular. Quite a mind-boggling set of shows if you've been brought up with the Western Allies perspective of 'Good & Bad Guys'. I can't remember the titles, but I'm sure if you ask Woody @WW2TV he will provide the links for you.
Thanks for that !@@philbosworth3789
@@WW2TV What about Allies.. Any links?
th-cam.com/play/PLDG3XyxGI5lDW7uWnbLniKT4sz0spCLEY.html&si=p5JSHPWRxxKc1A9k
awsome discussion.
ask yourself a question. who would you rather square off against. the 12thSS Panzer Division or the Wehrmacht ?
It depends on the situation. The 12th SS could be bold, but also had a tendency to break under pressure. Units like Panzer Lehr used the ground better and were more resilient
This will have the 'fan-boys' coughing and spluttering
However the Germans didn't exactly roll-over in a day though, did they?
It seems churlish of him to be as disregarding of the W SS as he is
Alas, there seems to be plenty of evidence out there to the contrary
Thanks for the comment
Great show & awesome channel. Thanks for bringing us all the great stuff !!
woody reminds me of the way melvin brag conducts an interview. that's a compliment btw lol
The Waffen SS Oath ends in "so help me God." They have got to kidding.
No it wasn't - it was "Meine Ehre heisst Treue" - My Honor is my Loyalty.
Instead of panzergrenadier, Dr. Blood repeatedly refers to "the Mobile Infantry."
Do you want to know more?
What do you mean?
The name of Leib... changed to "Panzergrenadier..." which means armoured regiment. Panzer = armour, not 'tank' as you know@@WW2TV
There are rarely direct fully accurate translations of German terms to English
@@WW2TV I kept wondering if Dr. Blood was alluding to the 1990's movie "Starship Troopers", loosely based on the science fiction novel by Robert A. Heinlein. The novel's protagonist is a member of the Terran Federation's Mobile Infantry. The movie blatantly depicts the Mobile Infantry as a Waffen-SS of a deeply fascist society. The tagline "Do you want to know more?," is used many times during the propaganda clips sprinkled throughout the movie.
Given the popularity of "Starship Troopers" with the military history crowd, I'm surprised this joke didn't elicit more reactions. The movie has become a cult classic and ebay regularly carries items related to the series of "Starship Troopers" movies.
The novel is a slim and controversial read that can be tackled in a day or two. The original movie has generated its own nexus of video critiques, both positive and negative. The TH-cam channel "Knowing Better" even published a video about "What if Veterans Ruled the World" based on Heinlein's novel.
Honestly, a @WW2TV detour through the novel would likely be a HUGE draw for the TH-cam algorithm and audience, especially given the built-in audience and the likely erudite comments generated by longtime viewers of this TH-cam channel.
Maybe, he does like his movies
Another masterclass from Phil. The research is top notch, as always. The information cuts through the bs and noise about the SS being elite automatically.
From a purely military capability perspective of the Waffen SS, if the word “elite” is too generous or subjective, is there another single word that’s more accurate or fitting if wanting to compare to Osttruppen, or regular Wehrmacht, or Volksgrenadier units? Or, okay, maybe two words?
Fascinating presentation!
Do you mean Heer? Wehmacht is all of the 'defence forces'
Motivated?
Yes, thank you for the correction.@@neilritson7445
That's also the word I ultimately come to.@@garymiller_85
Dr Phil masterfully dissassembles the Waffen SS wheraboo myth of "elite" quite eloquently--simply by looking at battlefield performance...and dammit jimbo, he's nailing it like a Master Carpenter to their own self-interest "re-inventions" post war. Outstanding show!
Thank you Daniel
No trouble at all. Getting back off from pneumonia to watch again,@@WW2TV
On the other hand there is no battlefield performance record that shows from 1943 Heer divisions did better than the Waffen SS at Kharkov, Kursk, Normandy, Hungary. Ardennes perhaps but the northern shoulder where 1st and 2nd SS were had the more difficult terrain and road situation I would argue.
There were no Waffen SS divisions involved in the war losing battles of Stalingrad and El Alamein. 😉.
@@lyndoncmp5751, El Alamein--true. There were RSHA (SS) personnel in N. Africa however persecuting Tunisian-Libyan Jews though. And to be fair to Dr Phil, he's only looking at one division, LSSAH, not the entire Heer on the Eastern Front. HOWEVER...therein lies a great book idea--what was the makeup of manpower & quality of forces in the Heer on the Russian Front post Kursk? Post 3rd Battle of Kharkov? That's a lotta data on 180-odd divisions to run thru to answer your question I admit.
Thanks for the comment
In one word they were tenacious
Another excellent presentation that busts old myths about the German military in 39-45. 👏🏼
Im glad to say as an Australian only 4 Aussies joined the SS , one did f all in the BFC the other 3 im happy to say had the daft idea of joining the SS so they could escape to Russian lines , luckily for them they didnt succede
Did not know that thank god they didn’t reach the Russians
Interesting show as always Woody. Shame about the new ban!
No new ban thankfully
Always found it amusing that the Wehrmacht thought of the SS as amateurs , "Policemen" .
you mean Das Heer? the Army? Not sure the navy and airforce has much to say!
Fanaticism only takes you so far.
Unfortunately Dr Blood is like Max Hastings in the reverse political. There is no level appreciation, it is all political biased. It's great to hear alternative views, however you have to take everything with a bucket load of salt. Not a great show in my opinion, but that's just me. I like to look at things objectively, and this definitely wasn't in my opinion. Sorry, just my thoughts.
Well we all have different opinions
@marklooppRAF thank you for being so polite you seem like a nice person even though i disagree with you.
@@jimwalsh1958space That's fine James. I've learned to curb my views online. At least the comments will help Woody with the algorithm 🙂
@MarkloopRAF I'm not sure I understand the negative comment. There are (rare) episodes where I either don't agree with what's being said, or just can't stand the guest speaker, out of 'principal' almost. In those cases I just keep my thoughts to my self and don't comment - which is a comment in itself. I take everything I ever hear about absolutely everything with a bucket of salt, but feel I'm mature enough to do so without publicly rubbing said bucket of salt into others. Woody @WW2TV does great stuff when it comes to the guests he brings us, along with depth & breadth of content you really don't get often.
@@philbosworth3789 Can't agree more that Woody does great stuff and has great guests. Long may it continue. However, why can't you say whether you liked an episode or not?
i admire Philip Blood but Martin Van Creveld is a Dutch born Israeli military historian, not an American. For such a stickler of facts and research it's a surprising faux pas.
Freudian slip. I memorise talks to help stick within the time set. In that case two sentences were merged. I meant to say: ‘Martin Van Creveld is an Israeli historian who published in America. There was also a number of American historians, who also studied the performance of the Waffen SS including George Stein and Robert Koehl.’ Apologies if my error disturbed your viewing.
@@Historianphil No worries, Dr. Phil, Your brutally clear morality is the needed anecdote to the gaslighting of history (near and distant) which is now at epidemic proportions.
Yes, it was Great Britain. You sweer loyalty to fight for king. Thats the base for all...
Serving and Fighting is different to an oath to die for a cause
when it comes to german looks and equipment I know at 5 I liked the german helmet the russ ppsh and 1911. don't know why But there are some things that just draw your minds eye dingo scout car better than the spz 222 german half track looks cooler. Be nice if a psychologist did a study just on shapes of vehicles
I'm guessing judging by the comments, the SS fanboys aren't happy......Great discussion
Haven’t seen any comments which indicate the presence of “fan boys” ...
@@farizdbro9903 You're obviously not looking hard enough are you!
@@farizdbro9903 and fanboys is one word.......not 2
"covering a lot of ground but not doing anything"..........................hmmmm
?
Great presentation of the 1st SS division. 😊
Oh "the 1st SS Division" ? are you a fan?
I always enjoy a show with Dr. Blood, and the comments section is usually just as entertaining!
A lot of "I'm not a sympathiser, but..." type of comments. Or "if there were more of them, then they would have won."
The usual apologist nonsense.
I think it's fair to look at the combat effectiveness of tactical engagements, but always in relation to the context of the wider war and their place in that, and for me, that's where the likes of Dr. Blood and Waitman Beorn excel.
A really excellent presentation that does a good job of exposing the myths of the Waffen SS in WW2. I agree that generally the SS were inferior to the professionalism of the German army, but the SS got the best equipment and cooler uniforms and it was this rather than performance that made them an elite. I have always found it difficult to get accurate figures on German losses, reporting was so bad. All so often the Germans look to have inflicted higher losses on the Allies compared to their own casualties, post-war analysis gives much more even figures. Not enough SS were executed for their war crimes, many got off with light sentences, it was a disgrace.
Like im not a fan of Nazi Germany and the complete waste of good fughting men and lets face it spoilt for equipment units like the LSSAH is endemic of the stupidity of the whole German ww2 effort .
I don't know why you think they were spoilt for equipment, it's a long discredited myth that they got the best of everything before anyone else got it.
@@malcolmhunt7108 lol did you see their 44-45 TOE ? I think you need to compare it to an ACTUAL elite formation one of the AIF divisions , spoilt , you Nazi boys be lucky us Australians where busy after 42 . Ppppfffftttt master race boy
good fughting men? You are obs not familar with the selection criteria for SS!!!!!!! Good? Not applicable. They were idolators. Fascist murderers.
As has been stated, strongest and best equipped division in Normandy was Panzer Lehr, an army unit.
Strongest ever Tiger battalion was the Army's 502 which had over 70 Tigers in early 1944. No Waffen SS Tiger battalions had more than the nominal 45.
Though the 7 premier Waffen SS panzer divisions were well equipped they were no more well equipped than the premier army panzer divisions. Less so in some cases.
The first unit to receive the new Panther tanks in 1943 at Kursk were the two army battalions, attached to the army's Grossdeutschland.
First units to receive the new King Tigers and Jagdpanthers in 1944 were army battalions. First units to receive the new Jagdtiger were army units.
Etc etc.
references please@@lyndoncmp5751
2:30 assess is not spelt Asses 😂😂😂😂
Always good to make a mistake early! No excuses, it should have read as ‘assess’.
@@Historianphil 😂
The only thing that isn't in the british army oath is "to the death". The rest is exactely the same but you change Adolf with the royal house 😂😂😂 not much of a difference.
Question for Dr Phil
How come England didn't declare war on Soviet Union for invading Poland?
Because 'England' was smart enough to know the USSR would be needed as an ally once Germany started on them, which they were sure to do as it was Hitlers ideology. England knew the USSR would be attacked next.
Don't you mean Great Britain?
@@WW2TV don't you mean the United Kingdom?
Okay, good point, the UK@@davidpnewton
Because the agreement it had with Poland was specifically intended to deter a German invasion. If you insure your house against fire only you do not expect the insurance company to pay out if you have a flood.
I like the ideas and questions Dr blood brings up but i understand he has to work of limited resources but I think he sometimes goes into the conjecture and reading too much into propaganda photos without trying to back any of his conjecture by showing us the viewer the evidence he is using for said conjecture like the making the Germans dress up as ballet dancers what is his sources for that? Example like that give people excuse for shity behaviour as you say(rightly so).
I don't blame you the host for this it is hard to push back on people that you have on your channel or else they will stop coming but can you try to stop people going into too much conjecture based on their own opinions not the evidence(that is available) or just have them say this is conjecture based on their own opinions.
Thank you for reading
P.S IF you can try to stop Dr blood(and others) talking about modern day politics on your channel it undermines his objectively.
I take your points, and I do tend to avoid modern politics, but I also know that a lot of viewers like hearing the opinions of guests. TH-cam is a much looser platform than academic writing and I like that it's not all citations and sources. Historians can express themselves
@@WW2TV fair points well made. I just think that Dr blood opinions about war in Ukraine can come off a bit too emotional invested which is hard to stay detached given all the propaganda of the war on both sides of the war and the fact that we will not know much about it until it is over and even then it will be a historical shit show for decades too come much like WW2 I guess.
I get that it is hard to get soures for everything for a 70-80year war especially in a hour and a half. Maybe I was a bit harsh on Dr for that but some of his conjecture was to me a least out of left field. Again Not your fault don't shoot the messenger type of stuatiaton.
Thanks for Reading
No worries
You must your Ipad!!! It's fookin iratating and sophomoric!
Sorry, I recognise all the words, but have no idea what you're saying
kay, "Dr. Phillip Blood" appears to use words without really understanding what they mean. Fort example he uses "Corps" when the correct term is "Division" - helps to know the topic. He use "panzer" and then uses "tank" - the words mean the same thing, so either use one or the other. At a guess, he has never served in a military's mechanized service, and it shows.
So, for a historian to speak on a subject he has to have served in the specific unit? That takes out John McManus, Alex Kershaw, James Holland, Alexandra Ritchie etc.
Panzer Divisions were organised in Corps/Korps so that is often what he was referring to
Also, panzer can indeed mean tank, but also armoured - as in panzergrenadier which means armoured grenadier not tank grenadier.
Thanks for the comment, but it comes across as picky
"for a historian to speak on a subject he has to have served in the specific unit? " - pretty sure I did not write that. Have you ever watched/read someone (you in this case) that clearly demonstrates they do not know what they are about? @@WW2TV
Your message was derogatory and I responded
It would be nicer if all your comments were "oh wonderful". It helps if you can sort out the wheat from the chaff. Format CAT member, former chief, military history at the US Armor Center and School. @@WW2TV
Always happy to engage, but your comment seemed an ad hominem rather than about Philip's knowledge. You definitely implied that him not having served in the mechanized branch of the military was a weakness. I have hosted many shows about armoured warfare, some with former service personnel including a couple of Colonels and two Generals and lots with civilians. Knowledge is knowledge, having served isn't necessarily a bonus, although it can be
that hat is pimp!!!!
Ah yes, a simple soldier can't read a map. Such a sin. I can't see his rank beacuse I'm watching on a tablet but something tells me that he's not a staff officer.
Also the SS swore to die for Hitler but it isn't much different than the oaths of the time. The bulgrian one, in force up to 1950:
I promise and swear in the Almighty God that as a member of the Bulgarian army will serve honestly and loyally to his highness the bulgarian tzar and country as I perform precisely and unconditionally (!) all of his orders and won't spare my life in peace to protect the laws of the state and in war against our enemies.
I don't know the english/british/UK one but i suppose it included some form of obedience to the king.
Lastly I don't think that elite is a precise term. Everything better than average is called elite nowadays. They got the job done. Often in horrendous condions and against the odds.
Course many were ordinary soldiers!! Waffen ss started conscription in 1944. I studied the Waffen SS at college and one of my case studies was a 17 year old Hungarian conscripted into Florian Geyer Division. He had no interest in nazis like many other young men in it ranks. Many others joined for the adventure, and many of its hundreds of thousands of foreign troops joined to fight bolshevism. Very skewed presentation. You also picked one of the infamous 3 divisions well known for war crimes. Might as well do Das Reich and Totenkopf as well.. They were rarely used in early war 1940-1942. But as a pure military unit they define they definitely prolonged the war!!
Crazy russiaphobia
?
"Russian forces who although they're um a ragtag army with the Vagner gang and all the rest of it they've managed to pull off some of the most horrendous genocide seen in Europe for a long long time " That's crazy
Armies don't need to be well-ran or technologically superior to commit genocide
It is crazy to say that the Russian army is committing genocide in Ukraine. These absurd accusations only trivialize real genocides.
You don't think any genocides are happening in Ukraine?
you know it's called TV....not...radio!!
Meaning what?
Extremely Bias
Of a more balanced view to counter lots of other TH-cam SS fan boy content
@WW2TV I don't really see a lot of that anywhere ss fan boys I don't see that anywhere I wanted to hear how good the they were and we got really bias view
But, they weren't that good, that's the point
@WW2TV I think it depends on units to be honest some were some weren't it depends on the units
A good show but not one of my favorites.
Its interesting to see the sort of historical ping pong that goes on with the waffen ss.
At one time the waffen ss were generally regarded as elite fighting units, with some notable exceptions.
Now its all the fashion to paint them all as overrated war criminals.
I feel the truth lies sonewhere in the middle.
Thanks for the comment