WHAT ARE SILVER & DEMING DRILLS #14 short subject tubalcain
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 10 พ.ย. 2022
- You are watching #14 of my "SHORT SUBJECT" video series.
Here is a link to my SHORT SUBJECT PLAYLIST--
• SHORT SUBJECTS
Please like & subscribe & watch my 1400 other machine shop videos.
#dialindicator#testindicator#brown&sharpe#mitutoyoindicator#shars#federalindicator - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
Most of us come here to hear you talk, so keep talking Mr Pete.
Completely agree with you Nicholas viney! Mr. Pete has more knowledge on machining than I’ll ever have and I hope to gain as much as I can by him.
What I like about Mr Pete is he reminds me of my shop teacher back in the 70s high school. A fascinating repository of vast knowledge..
You never talk to Much Lyle..
Love Your Ramblings...
Mike M.
Mr. Pete,
Please don't say "I talk too much." I don't think your thousands of viewers think you talk too much, or even enough for that matter. I enjoy every word of every video and would watch more.
Thanks.
True about the Chinese not sharpened properly. Myne had the flats, practically mandatory. No problem regrinding, can't beat the price.
Nice short subject, well done.
Great video as usual. However in the UK these are (in my experience) normally known as 'Blacksmiths drills' but the history lesson was informative so now I am aware of the inventors and an alternative name. Thank you.
Thank you Mr. Pete ways wondered why they were called that.👍👍👍
Others have beat me to the point by their already posted comments. I never tire hearing Mr. Pete talk on shop related topics, and I consistently learn new details about topics where I am already knowledgeable.
This video met this mark! I always thought that Silver and Deming was a brand not a style until I started encountering cheap bits called Silver and Deming. Lyle's explanation that this is a style clears up this mystery.
My introduction to drill bits was working in an industrial production machine shop. Naturally I was exposed to only the highest quality tooling. We checked out tools from the tool crib as needed and drill bit brands varied from time to time and brand names often cannot be read on small tooling. I learned to gauge quality by inspection rather than brand name. I wasn't forced to face the cost of premium tooling until I built my home shops. I did like most newbees and bought reduced shank drills to expand my capacity never considering that I was gaining length advantages. Reduced shank was the name that our shop called this style of drill. I picked up a handsome odd assortment of new and barely used Silver and Deming drill bits thinking that I had found a superior product. When I examined them, though high quality, they were China marked on many boxes. Now I understand. I currently settle for the private label sets from sources like MSC, FASTENAL, and Grainger for my full sets, but I still long to set up full racks of premium branded "Silver and Deming" drills.
I have bigger machines than before I started building my shop, so I am also shopping for quality Morse taper drills up to at least 2". I have machine capacity to go larger, but seldom have a need. I figure that the poor man's solution is to progressively bore the occasional large hole. Stocking large Morse taper drills a real challenge on a hobby budget, so this inventory is all used and is real hit and miss.
Thanks again Lyle. You hit another home run.
Mr pete, you are a wealth of knowledge and information.. we would never get tired of hearing you talk and we love your videos each and every one
You don’t talk to much, thank you for your time and knowledge, I watch all your videos but don’t always comment. But try to remember to give you a thumbs up thanks again.
👍👍
Good video Lyle. Anyone buying new Silver and Deming should look for ones with the flats already on the shank. It will save a lot of problems down the road.
I always wondered where the name for these drills bits came from. I assumed it had something to do with machining not someone’s name. Thanks for explaining it. I bought a set 30 years ago from Hanson and I have enjoyed them and they are still in great shape.
Mr Pete, are you a Cleveland drill fan? I have loads of them most are 40-80 years old from tiny wire size to around 3" or better. I find they are the best, last longest, and take the abuse better than most. I do have other USA brands that are good too but the Cleveland drills and Greenfield taps are my favorites.
Yes, I think Cleveland drills are the best, I have lots of them
Great video Mr. .Pete Perhaps you should do a video on the history of the twist drill. Many people would be interested in how recent the successful design of the twist drill is.
Great information as usual. Loved the history and i have two sets of these and both from china. One is sharpened a little better than the other but both need to be resharpened. I seldom use them but will sharpen them so they are ready to use. Thankyou Mr. Pete as always.
THANK YOU LYLE...5:27 "I know I talk too much", NO YOU DO NOT TALK TOO MUCH...Lyle my distress is knowing (as with us all) that time will come when you have to stop talking, UGH!!! Talk away Lyle cause I enjoy ALL YOU HAVE TO SAY........TM
Interesting.
Great stuff Mr. Pete, bought my set from Grizzly. They must be carbon steel and not HSS. They are good for about 1 or 2 holes between sharpening. But really when I drill these larger holes they're typically clearance holes or for drilling as big a hole as I can before breaking out the boring head. Also great history lesson on Silver & Deming.
Before hss, all we HAD was carbon steel (I'm sure you're aware already) and we made it work... slow speeds and lotsa coolant and CS tools worked well....in fact its still used sometimes for form tools etc...
I lucked out years ago and bought an 8 piece set of USA made S&D bits from a hock shop cheap then had them professionally reground. They are rarely needed but perform flawlessly when put to use. Great video and topic sir!
👍👍👍
I still use s&d that I inherited from my father. I use one of them almost every week. I think about my dad whenever I use some of his older tools.
Your knowledge is always so welcome and informative. Thanks.
Thankyou Mr. Pete.
They are great to have in the shop. Just used a 1” one yesterday. 😊😊😊😊😊
Great info!!! My dad was a machinist for 28yrs. I inherited all his tools. Two Kennedy tool boxes worth of amazing tooling from the 50's, 60's and 70's....
😀😀😀😀
I wondered where the Silver and Deming name came from. Now I know!
Thank you for sharing your skills and I have enjoyed the content
I use to work at a foundry as a maintenance tech. The scrap pile was always an interesting place to check for useful items.
Taper shank drill bits were to be found in all shapes, sizes, and conditions. The giant camel back and big radial drill press in the maintenance shop could handle the big bits. Lots of travel on the camelback spindle and the radial could be raised up and down with the hand crank from hell. The radial had a 4 foot reach.
Later jobs included machinist work and eventually management positions over maintenance/machine repair departments. Since the machines in the plant were setup to run specific jobs the tooling was standardized. Reseting the stroke on an automatic drill was more costly than just putting in a std jobber length bit and getting the job running quickly. Also the chance of error is greatly reduced.
Over the years I have added a few tons to the scrap drill bits in the foundry scrap pile.
I have a South Bend 9C lathe that accepts #3 MT in the drive spindle and #2 MT in the tailstock. I'm still using some of the scrap pile drills. I left the foundry in 1973.
Bent taper shank drills can be turned down like Mr Pete shows in his stock of bits. It removes the runout from the bent shank.
I bought a Silver hand crank drill press and discovered the reason for the half inch shank.
The press doesn't have a chuck. It has a half inch socket in the end of the spindle with a square head set screw. Every drill bit that was used in the press from 1/4 inch up in my drill selection for the Silver Drill press has a 1/2" shank with one flat on the side of the shank.
I also have a hand crank Swan Beam Drill with the same drill bit mounting method. 😁😎
th-cam.com/users/sgaming/emoji/7ff574f2/emoji_u1f60e.png
Very cool, I didn't know this! Thanks
Banks send me loan offers everyday, it is about the only physical mail I get anymore. Good topic. You hit the nail on the head in that machining is making holes. What I learned over the years is that holes are expensive to produce.
As always, one great episode Mr. Pete....cheers, Paul Brown
I thoroughly enjoy your videos, learning a lot from them.
Thanks for all the great and informative episode.
Interesting. I had assumed it was somthing to do with the steel not just the style of drill bit.
I do find that they chatter horribly in the larger size without extremely low speeds. The morse taper does not seem to suffer this. The chuck must reduce the overall stiffness.
I have no need of drilling holes that large in metal as a woodworker but I can see the advantage of this style after watching this video. Good information Mr. Pete....
I enjoyed this video. Very helpful as always!
Those Bits are perfect for use in a Cole Drill!
Learned another new thing today, Thank you Mr Pete
Thanks for the lesson Mr. Pete!
I have the same Japan bits. I milled 3 flats on them , and did have to resharpen them. Good to see your still making videos. 👍👍
Great video!!!
I often wondered why they were called that. I picked up a set of import bits at an auction for $10 and only a couple of them had been used. I think I may go out and mill those flat spots on them though.
Good stuff Mr Pete. I assume you were not named for Primitive Pete...remember that guy in the auto shop videos of the 70s? He was always using ViceGrips on everything and screwing up whatever project he touched.
Thanks Mr. Pete, didn’t know that history! 👍
Well, now I know. Keep talking. Thanks, Mr Pete.
Nice video, the majority of us would just open the box and start using them without paying attention to their sharpness . . indeed master Pete has an eagle eye for tools. Thank you.
Now I know I have to grind mine before I use them.
Another great lesson!
Sorry I am late watching this video. The question that you just answered I have asked several times and was on my bucket list of questions.
Thank you, I will sleep well tonight.
👍👍
As others have said, the mainland Chinese Silver & Deming drills are hit and miss (like most of their goods). Flats on the shanks are a must. Without them, as Lyle says, the shanks will get chewed in a chuck if used for anything other than the lightest work.
If the drills are not correctly sharpened, I find that it is easier to sharpen large drills on a belt sander versus a grinding wheel. Since about 60% of the axial force required to make a drill cut is from the center of the drill having to chisel its way into the work, a pilot drill makes life so much easier for Silver & Deming drills. A pilot drill means the center of the Silver & Deming drill doesn't have to be perfect to avoid chatter, wandering, and out-of-round holes. If the cutting lips are even and there is clearance behind the lips you are good to go.
An aside, a hint for the home machinist. When you go to yard or estate sales with your better half keep an eye out for good quality drills in the 1/4"-3/8" diameter range lying about in the shed out back. Yes, you have full drill sets at home, but these drills go into small boxes beside your drill press, milling machine, and lathe. Having these drills at hand make drilling pilot holes in your work a 30 second job. If you need something to do on a rainy day, put these stock sized drills into your 6-sided collet block and mill 3 flats on them as well. It will keep the shanks pristine.
Cheers from NC/USA
I recently bought some cobalt bits from Menards. They were ground wrong as well. I corrected the drill angle by using a sheet of emory paper while reshaping the heel of the angle before it would cut. I was very disappointed.
I've had a set of the Silver & Deming bits for quite a few years. Actually well made hard & brittle. I bound one up on the mill and snapped it. Used fairly often.
Thank you for sharing. 👍👀
You remind me of my 9th grade (1977) wood shop teacher. Good post. Semper Fi
😀😀
I've recently bought some of these bits, very handy for wood and softer metal
love the History lesson at the end of video Sir....Bravo
Great content
I got the chinese ones years ago and work very well.Thank you.
All a bit old school Mr Pete, for just over half the price you can get BOTH a mag drill and a set of core bits, they'll last much longer and are much more versatile.
Great info sir!
I keep a drawer of old (dirt cheap or free no doubt) taper shank bits that I turn down to 1/2" shanks when I need one.
Interesting. I wonder how you hold the bits to turn them down since they’re slightly tapered and difficult to chuck on the flutes?
@@ellieprice363 Between the flutes and the taper there is usually a chuckable zone.
@@johnstrange6799 Thanks, I forgot about the short straight section.
Mine are an old set from HF, they came in a wooden box and do have flats on the stems. They were sharp(ish) when new but they don't drill round holes. I consider them roughing drill bits 😁
Good Job Mr. Pete 👍
American made S&D drill bits are readily available, but expensive... As Mr. Pete says, a packaged set is hundreds dollars. To save considerable money but still get USA quality, I bought an empty Huot S&D drill index, and then populated it with individual bits bought on ebay. Search for the size you want, like "3/4 Silver & Deming Drill", sort by lowest price plus shipping, then look for the cheapest USA-made bit that's new or in good condition. Repeat 7 more times for the other sizes. I also got the bits with flats on the shank so they can't spin in the chuck!
Thanks
I'm lucky, I have two Chinese sets of " Silver and Deming" drills ( I've never come across that name here in the UK ) imperial and metric 13 - 25mm and 9/16" - 1" and luckily they are properly ground! And I probably haven't used all of them but I've found no problems drilling properly formed holes with no rubbing whatsoever. I've been thinking of milling three flats on the reduced shanks to stop any slippage and galling the shanks. Nice informative Mr Pete, you keep on talking.
Thanks again Mr Pete. I used those bits many years ago when I was a machinist but tended to use the tapered shank bit over 1/2" diameter to drill holes. The incorrect rake on that set you showed is no bit surprise. I ended up with a set of jobbers length drills "made in China" trash that had the same thing. Can't imagine someone with no experience trying to drill holes with such garbage. I feel for them. Me, I just resharpened them by hand and they cut just fine after that. Even those "Drill Doctor" machines they sell in the big box stores are a joke.
I have used many a S&D bit particularly in hand drills on job sites.
So few home hobbyists are starting professional machinists are likely to spend $500+ on a set of drill bits, when they also have to buy several other sets. Thats why the foreign made stuff has taken over. People are willing to do 1 or 2 jobs with poor quality because they're either not making a living off them or have the ability to actually sharpen them.
Mr. Pete...Good video but you skirted one of the advantages of of the Silver & Deming drill bits. Yes they are all turned down to 1/2 inch shanks. But they are also the same length as a 1/2" jobbers drill. What you missed is that all being the same length, it is an advantage when switching bits when making multiple size holes in a workpiece. You don't have to keep cranking the table of a drill press or the head of a mill.
Sorry, yes, I did miss that
Thank you Mr Pete
Thanks for the video
I'd always wondered where the name came from. I just bought a set from HF, you are correct, the clearance angles are not good and need to be reground right out of the box.
Just for grins, I'm going to see how well a Drill Dr. works. I won't be able to do the larger ones but the smaller ones will fit.
Dirt cheap when I started as a hobbyist in 1984. Still have them. Still use them. Mine I got from Enco. Cost about 20 bucks. Drilling is still a fast way to remove metal with mininal equipment.
Hey thanks for video. Shop I used to work at the worst offender was drilling to close to pilots. What I am trying to say is, say you are drilling 3/4 holes, don't drill a 1/2 hole fi⁸rst, drill say a 1/4, less than the web, ok, 3/8, but less than web thickness of big drill. Drilling just a bit bigger has a bigger chance of bit slipping., you know what I'm talking about. Seen many chewed up shanks, repaired a few, rewelded a few and turned down to 3/4 fit r8 collets, yep, bobbed off and arc welded on, no problems, ok, just a bit of stress relief, old boss introduced me to arc welding hss to low carbon 40+ years ago. Hey Pete, shop I work in now, we have a radial arm drill press, wonderful machine, #5 taper, but most of the bits I use are silver and demings. But most have 3 flats, plus we have a Jacobs super chuck. You covered the 3 flat thing.
What I am leading up to, if you are predrilling for a big drill bit, don't predriil much bigger than the web of the bigger drill, won't catch and spin as much. S and d bits are my friend, short which is good, up and down on z axis affects location. I don't like to move knee much, even if head is trammed in good. Hope you all followed my logic
Thank you for an interesting and informative comment
Yes, "Silver and Deming" type of drill bits did, at one time, come in sizes below the 1/2" shank!
I just found a set of 1/2 inch shank drill bits in my 1908 Sears catalog.
An 8 bit set consisted of 1/8", 3/16", 1/4", 5/16", 3/8", 1/2", 5/8" and 3/4" sizes.
By the way, this set of drill bits came with their $29.71 blacksmith setup which had an 85 pound anvil (with 3 hardy tools), lever forge, Post Drill press, Post vise, and a few hand tools.
They did sell those bits separately, too, in 1/32 increments between 1/8" and 1 inch. 7 cents for the 1/8" and 71 cents for the one inch bit.
Thank you for that information. Amazing prices
Mr. Pete, I am almost 70 and your informational videos still have the same effect on me as my H.S. shop teacher!
Thanks
all good and informative... but I wonder who is smarter, the one who sells you wrongly sharpened drills, or the one who buys them knowing they are bad!
Keep talking and making videos, I look forward to all the new instalments
You are still my TH-cam shop teacher. I am 71 years old and have used these drills off and on since I was young, but never knew they had a name or a history. I don't think I want a set. If you need one of these you are drilling a hole too big for your machine.
Art from Ohio
👍👍
I'm responsible for ordering tooling in our shop. I would never even consider ordering a Chinese cutting tool. Usually they're called "Value Import". Most of our cutting tools are USA made. Some from other places like Germany and Japan. It seems like a lot of the best, high-performance cutting tools come from Japan these days. Machines too for that matter. Anyway, I though you'd be happy to hear that.
Yes, that makes me very happy. I know what they mean by value import, L O L
A must have for anybody drilling a hole up to an inch. Love the Silver and Deming history lesson.
Sadly a lot of the cheap drill presses turn a bit too fast.
When a guy I worked with was cleaning his yard he had a big heavy old cast iron self feeding drill press rescued from the scrap pile. It had no motor and the self feeding drive shaft was broken. After a bit of work it sits in my shop taking up space until I need a bigger hole drilled. I bought a pile of MT drill bits just for it. if I have to choose between it or the Craftsman drill press, we already know the answer.
There is nothing like those big old presses for drilling large holes. I had a big old buffalo at the high school. It had number four taper, power feed. And would run it about 40 RPM
I bet those Milwaukee $22 each bits are made in China as well.
I got a 1/2" MT 2 Collet and use these without a chuck in my MT2 lathe Tailstock.
Have you done a video on the best drill sharpening machines for home shop use? Thanks for the great videos.
Not yet, I bought a drill doctor and will do a video on it this winter
Hi Mr Pete. I’m new to your channel. I saw your video on the Silver & Deming bits. I bought a set for $100 in Canada here. 9/16 to 1 inch from the “Pacific”. I was impressed with the wooden box so I stained it. Mostly I do welding so I’m particularly hard on drill bits.
I was interested in the rake you were showing. I agree with the ones I saw but I think mine are slightly better but not by much and with inconsistency.
Thank you for pointing that out because most of us just expect new bits to work. I’d rather just touch them up then rubbing and burning so I’d basically have to start over sharpening.
I will try to send pics but I’m learning and can’t see your complete email address.
Thanks again
Thank you for watching. I’m not sure what you meant by rake? Lots of these drillbits sets are inferior and not sharpened correctly.
I think they (or somebody else) made half inch shank drill bits in sizes SMALLER than half inch. The bits seem to have been silver soldered into the half inch shanks.
I have a few of those bits, but I'd like to have a set of at least 6 or 8, but I have never been able to find any more of them
. Most of the old blacksmith's post or wall mounted drill presses had a simple half inch collar on the quill that often had a set screw to hold the bit in place.
So, of course. all sizes of drill bits had to fit that half inch collar. I think I still have 2 or 3 of those drill presses around here somewhere, and we also have some at various threshing show blacksmith shops. Of course, I have adapted several of them to jacobs chucks for "modern" use.
Those flats are very dangerous, that slip has saved many broken bits or serious injury.
dear mr peterson i think we are the idiots bc we are buying this pos tools made by ppl who earn barely to feed their children. as always thank you for doing the research and taking your time to make the video. i learned something new, which to me is priceless. take care. peter
Thanks
You certainly know your history. I have a few of those bits but didn't know that they were called Silver and Deming. I believe Morse made them.
Made In (Communist) China. lol. I needed teachers like you when I was in school! lol.
Thanks
@@mrpete222 😁❤
I have these in the Parkside brands, HSS in all metric sizes from 13 to 25mm. I have tried one only and didn't cut a 2 or a 3mm enlargement. I should be try reshapernening them.
The silver and deming co was in Salem Ohio. Thats where I live. I dont know where it was located but Salem also had a company called Demings and they made pumps. Mostly water pumps for pumping well water. I assume they were related. The company is no longer there. I bought some machines at the auction.
The size of a drill chuck is really intended to use that size of drill as the maximum size. For example a 18n Jacobs 3/4" chuck should really only use a 3/4" drill as maximum size. Of course that goes out the window quickly in the real world. . A 4" or so riser block on a Bridgeport style mill is a godsend for many operations, especially drilling and reaming.
I have a small objection to the comment that most drill presses you will find in a small shop or home shop do not have a removable taper. I admit I haven't seen every drill press on the planet or even a significant fraction of them, but it seems like in current production only the smallest five-speed head drill presses do not have a morse taper. At one time I had several inexpensive drill presses set up in my shop so that I could stage operations, and all of them had a morse taper spindle. I would note that even from a discount or low price import provider there is a relatively significant price jump between the little five-speed and the next smallest drill press.
You can get a nice set of S&D bits made in USA by Viking for just under $200. No need to sell your car or wave the red flag!
A collet provides the best grip, much better then a jacobs chuck. Kinda the same reason drag race tires are smooth slicks. They give the most surface area for traction, so same concept.
The beauty of "offshore" [chinese] S&D drills is they can be used on wood. They sure don't cut steel for long.
lol
Hi Mr Pete good video . I bought a set Hss from banggood and they are only good for wood or aluminum way to soft for steel . Well what to do look at a more repeatable place like Shars and i asked how made them well they are made overseas and they gave me the name of the company so i called them and went with there HSCO ( M35 ) bits and they work well with steel . I agree that some of the $40.00 sets might be unusable for steel my 13 pcs set ( 9/16 to 1' ) cost i think $250.00 or a little more . Thanks Mr Pete . JM
I have always wondered where the name originated. Thanks Mr. Pete.
yes pint well made But a clever man such as yourself would be able to demonstrate a way to ues the spar gears we have laying arrowed to gear down The pedestal drill press to accommodate such drills at low speed By making a stand of fix tear such as the one your growing to put on to covert Your wood saw in to a mettle cutting saw. Making one out of you spear gear left over from the degraded & sold of lathes. LOL Hell you could even Mack one by cutting you own gears . les England say out of dleron. if theirs any laying around ?
So, did you install a Jacobs chuck with a straight shark into the mill with a round collet? What slippage problem did you solve?
I Think if you found a place that bought the rough out bit overseas and finished in the USA probable would be purity good .JM
Nice video I enjoy the subject as I too have a drill obsession, the term step drill can be confused with a Silver And Denning drill on this side of the pond as They seem to be called a Blacksmiths drill here am I correct, I have quite a few Step drills mainly Ex military and the cutting edge 9:42 is at the stepped end , Thanks for the video Pete.
Hello, would it be better to hold these drills with ER collets? Instead of a jacobs chuck.