Why Adam Savage ALWAYS Uses Center Drills
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 ก.ย. 2024
- Tested Patron moultriemanicmechanic asked Adam, "Why don't you use center drills to start holes when you are using the lathe? I'm not sure I've ever seen you use one and it's so much easier." Here's Adam's rather involved answer, and we thank you for your question and support, Moultrie. Join this channel to support Tested and get access to perks, like asking Adam questions:
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Sir I really really like that anter handled bowie you made, id like to ask to commission you to build me one similar but obviously slightly different so that yours remains its own? I'm willing to pay good money to have this done...
Also where is the video of you chopping things with that knife lol-ol-ol like water bottles and sticks and such?
So - what's the difference between a center drill and a spotting drill ?
@@criggie A spotting drill, with its split chisel point, thin tapered web, and rigid stubby body is ideal for making a shallow hole on location so that the main drill bit will follow the location without skittering off location. A center drill is like 2 drills in one. 1) A larger body, with a 60 degree point meant to engage with a lathe center (live or dead) mounted in the tailstock to support long workpieces. 2) The short pilot point is meant to help start the drill on center and provide a relief for the sharp point of the lathe center.
Many people will use a center drill to spot the hole, mostly because they do an ok job for spotting, and because they don't have spotting drills or have never heard of them.
Adam is using the center drill to spot the hole he intends to drill. Not optimal, but quite common practice in the shop. I get a kick by how Adam is using a piece of plastic to demonstrate the usefulness of center drilling in a lathe where experienced lathe operators will just choke-up on the drill and feed slowly to start the drill and keep it from wandering.
Nice explanation as usual. By the way, got dressed in a rush? Your Savage teeshirt is inside out.
Hearing Adam argue with the focus on his camera is one of the highlights of my day to be honest. It makes me feel like I'm not alone in talking to all of my inanimate objects like they're listening to me
🤣🤣🤣 I can’t stop laughing at his persistent camera MALFs
FOCUSSS, YOU FUCK!
"Focus you fack!" to quoth AvE
@@tylisirn Adam forgot to say the magic words 🤣
@effe'n set man - They are listening, they just don't care.
Adam et al: if you want an upgrade, get some spotting drills. Their angle will be much closer to the drill you'll use, and you won't run into the nightmare of breaking off the little nub in your part.
Center drills are designed for providing a hole for lathe centers -- so while they work well enough, it's easy to find the tool that works just a little better. (Also, more tools!)
So true. Having the angle match that of your drill is much nicer for the drill as well. Not so much of an issue with HSS drills, But I've heard some carbide drills really don't like drilling into center drilled holes. For my mil/lathe I've ground my own "spotting drill" out of some round HSS, either as a spade drill or as a d-bit. They both work great.
As a retired cnc machinist , I used 90 degree spot drills 99% of the time with usually 118 degree drills . The outside edge of the drill would catch the edge of the spot hole with equal pressure bites of the wall the 118 degrees centers the drill hole position
.
@@j.davidbennett8373
Spot drills are just simply the best choice and it amazes me to this day that even years long machinists have no idea that they even exist. I also enjoy drilling that bit extra deep and getting the hole chamfered for free. No need to chamfer in another op after the hole is drilled.
Drives me nuts when I see center drills being used on a drill machine.
I've been using spotting drills for years and was going to recommend the same thing.
This is directly from a Guhring catalog.
"
If using a HSS or HSCO drill, choose a spot drill with a smaller point angle (i.e. spot with a 90° drill, follow with a 130° drill)
For a carbide drill, choose a spot drill with a larger point angle (i.e. spot with a 142° drill, follow with a 140° carbide drill)
"
Bought some the other day, just because i needed some 5mm drill bits for rivets, and am tired of the bits wandering as well. Plus you get 2 chances to break the drill bit. Will also say that if you have the misfortune to do work on 316L stainless steel that has been work hardened by being spin moulded, and not annealed, you will not go wrong budgeting one drill bit per hole. You might be lucky and get three holes before the bit turns into a friction stir rod, but generally just a shade over 2 holes per bit. Last few I had run out, so yes that 600W AEG drill was quite happy to cook the holes through it. The 800W Bosch could not turn fast enough, though it does have enough torque on it to drill 25mm holes through reinforced concrete, never mind if there is actual reinforcing rod in the way, plus the plain bits are cheaper than SDS. The 5mm SDS bit lost the tip, though it made no difference to it drilling, still went in fine, just a second more per hole. 6km of conduit with one drill bit is good, till I borrowed it from the electrician and found a bit of loose granite. Still in use as a centre punch. Building sites are brutal on power tools.
When I was doing more actual installing as an electrician, we had to drill a lot of holes for screws in aluminium trunking. I don't know where i found one center drill just the right size, but that made it so much easier. With regular metal drill of about 6-7 mm you need to actually push the drill in to aluminium, but with center drill bit with similar size shank in a cordless drill its pretty much effortless to do. It took some time to find out what those drill bits actually were, before i was actually able to find and buy more of them. So, a "precision tool" also works for speed and comfort in not that precise construction.
The spiral or helix of a regular drillbit often grabs the material and pulls on it! You could dull the drillbit a little to make it grab less or do what you did and use a centre drill :)
if it was a tungsten carbide drillbit, maybe u dont need a centredrill for it, cause its so strong anyway.
@@Kaffeslampa yep, it will pull slightly, but only after it has started to bite in to the material. I have sharpened (brutally with an angle grinder and free hand) a lot of drill bits for that and it helps to make that "bite angle" way steeper, so it starts to bite easier and won't let go that often. It is done by hand after all, so keeping constant and straight pressure would make it much harder.
I have even tried to sharpen sds+ concrete bits to be like metal drills, so I could just slam it though in one go to the wall. Makes hell of a noise, but some colleagues do it even with those regular dull concrete bits. I was surprised how long that sds+ bit kept its sharpness while hammering to concrete.
@@shitheadjohnson2797 it's still the same profile and area you are trying to push trough, it just keeps sharp longer. With center drill it's just like using a smaller pilot drill, as the material is only couple mm thick.
@@shitheadjohnson2797
Yes but they are brittle.
Adam trying to get the tiny drill focused:
"Focus you fack!"
Ave lives on.
AvE forever
a blurry collab would be awesome
The Magic words from AvE.
02:44 ..and only for a minute?
hah! thought the same thing
If you don't have a center drill, just use a wobbly part. Same same.
With this 3d printed lathe chuck I have, the part is always wobbly
Yes?
I look forward to Adam responding to everyone telling him to use spotting drills
I know you're joking. Listening to Adam "explaining" things that he really clearly only knows a little about, is very annoying. For example, he mentioned NOTHING about changing the geometry on drills to help out with this issue.
I kept hearing AvE's voice every time Adam argued with the focus on his camera.
I work for a company that makes high tolerance PCD (diamond) drills for carbon fiber/ aluminum/titanium. These kind of things draw me in more than most videos. Yes I am a tooling nerd.
Funniest Tested video ever! Thank you Adam for not scrapping it and getting all of the autofocus right. You are human and the content was still there.
Oh I agree! I know some young craftsmen put like a letter A on their thumb nail with black marker so that the camera focuses better. This is just silly, lovely.
Adam will you please talk about Onewheel/FutureMotion and right to repair?
"I like making mistakes on purpose"
-Adam Savage, 2022
Living in San Francisco (i think i got that right), you probably use slightly left of center drill bits.
This is a joke, people, i am here all night! ^-^
I was always told that a center drill is so named because it preps the work for using either a live or dead center for support.
You are correct. That's why they're typically 60 degree angles. Spotting drills are specifically used pepping for further drilling, but center drills are also effective, usually based on short rigid lengths.
Correk !
See AvE's opinion on auto focus.
The "wandering" is mainly caused by the tip center being parallel to the end of the workpiece. the wider the tip, the more it will wander. The more you sharpen a drill bit, the wider the tip will get, as the core of the spiral gets wider the closer you get to the shank. When I apprenticed as a fitter back in the mid-90's, we would often grind the tip after sharpening the drill bits to get it narrower. This also helped the bit cut better, as a wide tip has to be forced through the material.
You also use the center drill to prep for the running center. Without using the running center, on longer material, you risk some serious chatter at the end furthest away from the chuck.
Unfortunately I haven't had access to a lathe for decades, as I changed career path after my apprenticeship ended. Today I work as a technical designer at a concrete element factory...
The changing in the drill geometry is called either "WEB-THINNING" or "SPLIT-POINTING".
There's so much truth in this video. Thank you for keeping this just as you did it's amazing how many times in the shop I will get so frustrated just trying to do the simplest thing. So any trick to make it better is appreciated
Thank you for the great video. It explains everything now why I was getting oblong holes on a high-end drill press. After I measured everything with a digital dial indicator.
Watching Adam struggle with the focus on the camera automatically makes me think of a certain catchphrase of sorts of one AvE. It seems to be remarkably effective, but sadly I'm sure Adam is too family friendly to employ its usage.
Focus You Fack!
Yes!!! He was definitely having an AvE moment. "Focus, you f***!"
Adam, you haven’t learned the AvE focusing incantation. You really have to master that one, it works a treat! 🤣
I have it on good authority that if you just shout "focus, you fack!" the camera will cooperate.
I'm disappointed how far down I had to scroll to find someone mentioning AVE's unofficial catchphrase. Engage safety squints!
This subject came up in the Hellboy's Samaritan one day build as well, where Adam addressed the movement of drill bits when doing the barrel!
A wobbly hole getting re-centered is very soothing
In the custom CNC metalworking business I can't remember when I used a center drill last. They're not needed. On occasion we'll use short stub drills on deep holes with coolant thru as a pseudo drill bushing but that's it. A 118 degree jobber drill is just a general purpose drill. HP split point or NC points require no spot drilling. Center drills are tools designed for centering for 60 degree centers. Use them if you want but it's no longer a preferred method.
Yeah, I have one CNC lathe in the lab and a manual lathe, I only use center drills on the manual or when doing reworks that require a center.
I use canter drills all the time, helps eliminate that bulge you get when form tapping aluminum
Center drills are for making 60 degree internal angles for centers. You need a spot drill, for HSS drill that would be a 90 degree spot for an 118 deg point drill. Only for HSS/cobalt. Carbide spots/drills are different. Use a 142 deg spot for a carbide 140 deg drill tip. As a machinist and now tooling salesman I run into this a lot from customers
fyi at work we pretty much use the 90 deg spots on everything, including when using carbide if we feel like it. Most carbide drills that we use though we don't spot.
The reason spot drills and center drills don't wander as much when starting holes is 2 fold. 1) They are hardened and rigid from end to end, but a twist drill is not that hard at the shank end. That is so they can flex a bit and are also less likely to shatter. 2) They are normally dramatically shorter than a jobber length drill bit and therefore much stiffer.
I was a little disappointed to have to go this far down in the comments to find this answer. 100%. the hardening is both key to the issue, and absolutely required for jobber drills to work without breaking.
I love how you answered this question. You didn't get defensive, just used it as a teaching moment for the rest of us, and even had a plausible explanation why the person might have had that impression.
"....defensive..." ??? What's that all about???
@@taxicamel "No! You're wrong! I always use center drills! Haven't you been paying attention when I use my lathe?!?!" that's what I mean by defensive, or some more tame version of that. I think how he approached someone saying he doesn't use them was really well handled and a great teaching moment he capitalized on. An example for all of us who might knee jerk in a similar situation sometimes.
Adam, I recently started using center drills, and oh boy, do they make a difference! Excellent explanation of how and why.
All the Best, Chuck
Sadly, Adam's video is more all about Adam. There is no such thing as a machine shop that does not have/inventory center drills. There is no such thing as "I USE CENTER DRILLS" as Adam puts it. EVERYONE USES CENTER DRILLS ....in this lathe application. EVERYONE ....who has training/education.
@@taxicamel Actually, I started using them in my drill press to obtain an accurate hole location. I never needed to locate a hole that accurately before, but I've known about center drills for some time.
And I'm self-educated thank you.
Nothing you said in your reply did anything to add to the discussion, instead you just made a feeble attempt to demean me. It is incredibly sad when smug people like you attempt to act like gatekeeps to a craft to feel self-important at the expense of others.
All the Best, Chuck
My favorite drill for lots of things even off the lathe. They are great for starting holes using the drill press for things like drilling and tapping firearms receivers for optic rails.
Definite 5th Element "Aziz Light!" vibes with that cam focus.
I was taught center drills were only for dead and live centers.and to use the spotting short nose drills for hole starting as there's less flex
same, they also dont have a section at the front that can break off like centerdrills
Half of this video is just Adam getting slightly frustrated and trying to focus his camera and I love it 😂
After 45 years as a machinist I aLways used a center drill both conventional and CNC machines. I use step drills for light steel. They are stiff and work great.
Great video! You should consider getting high quality magic arm for your camera. Your current mount doesn't appear to be too smooth.
I have an older keyed chuck that I leave a center drill in at all times. I only swap out bits in my keyless chucks. That makes it almost effortless to always use it. I would prefer to use spot drills rather than center drills for that purpose, but the convenience with the center drill tends to win out for me, and it's rare that it makes a big difference (at least in my work).
good tip adam, but you also use it for lathe and milling jig centres, as the 60 deg. tip cuts the supporting taper on the inside, so the centre holds the object with mimimal runout, as this taper is a close fit to the cone of the center itself. ( the small tip, in this use adds an oil space, to store lubricant, when using 'dead' or non-revolving centres- to save heat and wear).
Such a wonderful time watching Adam do his thing. That lathe goes down to a millionth on X😳😳😳
For the 'regular' guy (or gal) that doesn't have extensive hardware for drilling, and this goes for drill press and even hand drills and you find your drill tip wandering, a good tip I got from my father (many many years ago; thanks Pop) is to short chuck the drill (minimize the protrusion of the drill tip from the chuck). The reduced exposed drill shank will be stiffer and wander less (or not at all).
Was it just me that shivered when Adam put his hand between the toolpost and spinning chuck while poining at the part. I'm sure it was the camera angle that made it look closser than it was....
See also spotting drills for the Bridgeport.
With Adam struggling with the camera focusing incorrectly, I was just waiting for Adam to break into the AVE phrase of "Focus you ____"
hats of to Adam for managing not to do an AVE; even though he wants, to maybe there is Adam's outtakes on the patreon
centre drill are your friend....try a spotting drill in your drill press...solves the same drill bit wobble...but spotting drills are longer than spotting drills...for the drill press.
Great video, Adam. I love the lathe, i have tried a few projects on my wood lathe, you can see the really bad woodworking skills on my channel if you want a good cringe 😅
I'd love to see you do more lathe projects, preferably wood. Have you ever turned a bowl before?👍
Adam, greatly appreciated person. Inventive, charming chaotic and get's the job done eventually. I like your style! I'm a similar person and used to use a center drill a lot. But, when cutting nasty hard stuff like the Inconel's and waspaloy's the center drill ends his functional use just to soon for the price to obtain such a gem. Therefore I use a 45 degrees indexable chamfering tool to make a center hole for the upcoming drill. In the middle or center it doesn't cut so you have to start off center first and shift to the center afterwards. Than you dig a hole big enough for the drill to follow. The insert lasts a hundred times (estimate, I'm in for alcohol) better than burning the HSS center drills in two or three workpieces (excoriating, it's the intake again) Maybe this helps you to be a even more daring and confident machinist. Keep up the good work; much appreciated! Best, Job
I’m getting flashes of AvE with your fucus issues, a lot less salty Canuck, but same energy.
Adam needs to adopt the AvE method of focusing a camera
It's magical how those three words can get the camera to work.
Adam’s quick nonchalant impatient penchant for having his body, fingers, skin, clothes etc so close to moving machinery like lathes, drills, and saws is frightening to watch sometimes. #BeCarefulAdam
You’d think he’d have learned after that time he decided it would be great to clean that lathe with a rag, while it was running… and the resulting accident ripped his hand open.
And wearing a watch, lol.
I run a CNC lathe with full enclosure and still don't wear long sleeves or watches or anything around it.
Center drills are ok if you don't have something closer to the 118° degree.
I had holes wind up .0015 out of position due to a slight walk of the twist drill in the 60° center
Every time you yelled ‘focus’ all i can think of is the ‘Creature from the Black Lagoon’ pinball machine.
FOCUS
500,000
So they're like regular drill bits, but with a short, beefy shank for stiffness and stability. I knew what they were for but didn't understand the reasoning behind their design. Thanks Adam!
They work well nice thanks
I was half expecting Adam to yell at his camera, "FOCUS you F#@K!" and then I realized I wasn't watching AvE. 😂
Here's Adam having another lathe'y in the workshop! I just keep seeing an accident waiting to happen during the demonstration.
great question, i use them all the time thanks for your fabulous videos. love all of them followed myth busters from the start
Its much more apparent on self sharpened drill bits as its near impossible to keep the point centered
yeah, as someone mentioned above, when you sharpen a bit it causes it to widen, since the bit also gets wider as it goes down. So the more it's sharpened, the more parallel surface touches the element, the more the bit wanders.
Great video. It does sound like you've got an electric motor about to fail somewhere in the background haha.
I prefer a center drill over a spot drill for all holes, not just on the lathe, if drilling holes on a manual machine or using HSS vs carbide in a cnc machine. It allows for the full web of the drill to be cutting before the chisel tip contacts the material and eliminates the tri lobe hole due to the chisel walking.
We have carbide drills at our work. We've always center-drilled but recently someone said that the carbide drills don't need centering! We now drill without centering and the results might actually be better now because the center drill would sometimes leave a peg that decentered the carbide drill. Sounds weird that the center drill would be the weak spot but things don't always work in practice as it does in theory.
at least for milling, i usually just use cobalt drills with a split point. they self center, so i never have to use spot drills or center drills.
Split points are more fragile especially on an uneven surface, so you can ruin a few breaking centers out of the drill. However it depends on your workpiece. But high tolerance work almost always requires a well centered start hole.
@@firennice yeah, i never start drilling on raw stock. i always machine the surfaces first so they’re always nice and flat. most of my tolerances are ±.005”, and i can’t even remember the last time i had one out of tolerance
@@dtsnjsn6101 We have customers that drill with a .0005" tolerance, so we tell them to always center drill and maybe even predrill the hole.
@@firennice fair enough. i rarely get tolerances that tight, but that’s completely understandable. i just try to avoid the extra operation because cycle time
Unless I'm actually going to use a lathe centre, I avoid the use of a centre drill.
I've never broken the tip off a spotting drill!
+1 for spotting drill!! They are faster and drill bits last longer if you use the correct angle!
Would those center drills be appropriate for starting accurate holes when using a drill press?
If your serious about drilling on center you’ll find it’s better to keep the tail stock drawn back in, as it is extended there’s less support and the outboard end can droop a few thousandths , these is pretty much true of any tooling, keep it as short and as ridged as possible
Every single time Adam had problems with the focus, I heard AvE's voice in my head saying "FOCUS YOU F@CK!"
I love using a center drill in the drill press to countersink holes as I drill them. Far more accurate than trying to use a countersink bit after the fact. 👍
If I had a lathe, I'd definitely use them there too.
I do the same thing with clapped out end mills, flat countersink reuse recycle before heading to the scrapyard
Very much like brad point drill bits in woodworking (or for me, guitar repair and making), especially in a hand drill. No need to worry about a wandering bit ruining something, or making your tuning key installation look all goofy because one of the holes wandered off and now the whole tuning key is out of alignment with it’s neighbors. (This is less of an issue on tuning keys that use hidden pins instead of external screw tabs because someone came up with a drill guide for those that clamps in place through the headstock.)
Adam, check with AvE for the proper command to make your camera focus!
I'd suggest setting the camera at an angle that is more perpendicular to the object you're filming for less chance of focus errors, but what's more throwing the camera off is the similarity between the colors of the object and the background/foreground. Grab a note card to place behind the object you want the camera to focus on for best contrast in color.
Everyone can have a bad day 😂Just stay calm and try to focus 😁
"FoCUS!" kept making me think "Aziz LIGHT!"
The shoulder angle on the center is the same as your live center on the tailstock
"Adam fights with autofocus for nine minutes."
camera refused to focus because you didn't use AVE's magic command
Operating a lathe is so much fun.
The center drill is also to accommodate the center ,live or dead. Do you have a #8 ?
Try using stub length drill bits. In most cases they won't move like a jobber length bit. It can save you the time of changing between center drill and jobber drill. Very seldom do you really need a jobber length bit anyway.
Throwback to my lathe exam when I snapped both ends of the centre drills into my workpiece which I need to drill completely through - somehow I passed
Probably gained "points" with how you dealt with the problem.
You don't fail by falling off the horse. You fail by not getting back on.
If you use a center drill instead of a spotting drill, a small thing, very very small thing, you can do to prolong the life of your twist drills, is to only use the tip of your center drill. Those have an included angle of 120 degrees which more closesly matches the 118 degrees of most twist drills, and will give a more even starting wear on the tips, leading to fewer regrinds and having to sharpen your twist drills. The 60 degree start of the main body of the center drill puts a lot of initial force on a very concentrated spot on your twist drills.
Again this is just a very very tiny detail thing I like to do to waste less time sharpening my twist drills but I thought I'd throw it into the void of the comment section here, maybe someone will get some use out of it.
Who cares, drill bits are cheap, if you're cheaper than a drill bit, fret not it's just highspeed steel, just resharpen on the Grinder free hand
Hi sir
I am from chemical engineering. I would like to know what are the different between the drilling bit angles and what each angle used for?
The other question the Centre drilling bit the 2 ends are the same or one is the left and the other is the right handed side?
Center drill is also crucial if you need to use a tail stock.
Lathes are so cool, and also so extremely very scary.
Watching Adam Savage operate a lathe is scary, watch Blondihacks for less scary.
That's a lot of jaws on that chuck!
You have so many tools I never knew existed.
Use them with a drill press, too!
Is there a difference between using a center drill vs a brad point bit?
I even use Center drills in my Drill press !
Stub length drills are substantially stiffer than jobber length drills. In most cases, even in Delrin :-), stub length drills can be used without spotting.
Adam what was that material you were drilling into?
Thanks sir 😊👍.
Anyone else start screaming inside when Adam reached into an active lathe workspace??!!
Shouldn't a center drill be used to start holes with a drill press for the same reason as on a lathe?
Absolutely, although as others have pointed out the real proper tool is actually a Spot Drill. A center drill works, but a spot drill is best.
Adam, what about "spot drills"? Are those even more accurate than "center drills"? I feel like they could be! Let us know :)
Watching that lathe stop so quick makes me cry for the brake pads. haha.
now I understand THANKS
I see a lot of comments about using spotting drills but nobody is talking about 135 degree split point stub length drills. No center drilling or spot drilling necessary. Jobber drills get the job done but stubs are much faster. While you might argue that a stub length drill might not be the most accurate hole we all know reaming a hole is much more accurate. Better yet bore the hole.
I do not have a lathe, but can you use center drills with a drill press?
Umm... Center drills are for prepping a part to be turned between centers, the cone is 60 degrees, same as your lathe centers. They are also ground with clearance and will side cut to a certain degree, mic the tip on one and slowly rotate it (taps are ground the same way, mic a four flute, cutting edge then heal). Twist drill margins are a diameter.
[06/01/22] Hadn't seen a six jaw chuck before. Can 6-jaw chucks produce repeatable, consistent concentricity of work pieces, or must we always go back to the steadfast 4 independent jaw chucks and then dial indicate the workpiece?
Adam your lathe is orginal or converted into numeric display?
LOL when you move the camera I am always happy I dont suffer from motion sickness.
In Star Trek - First Contact, the Borg captured Commander Data and did naughty things to him. I don’t know if it was before or after the anal probe, but there was a close-up of some Borg device coming very close to Data’s eyeball. The “alien device” was actually an extra long #3 center drill. (I think it was a number 3.) Cheaping-out on props for alien technology. They could at least have done a little CGI and put in some sparks or something.