In 2017 I got permission from my Bishop at the time to teach a 5th Sunday lesson on the Race and Priesthood Essay. I got the idea after reading Paul Reeves book ‘Religion of a different color’. I reached out to Paul to get some of his curriculum to use for my lesson. Having a black husband and biracial children made this topic front and center on my mind for a long time and I NEEDED to get this information out there. The pushback from some of my Ward members was obnoxious. A member of the stake presidency felt the need to attend and completely undermine the lesson at the end. I really really appreciate this series with Mathew Harris!
I'm sorry this happened to you. I'm sure you gave a great lesson. The fact that your stake presidency person had to say something is evident that he is uncomfortable grappling with the church's racism. It's a function of the church not having meaningful conversations about its anti-Black theology. And thank you for your support. I hope that these episodes--and my book--will provide you with a better understanding of the church and race.
@ thank you yes your book most definitely has helped. True scholarship will truly stand the test of time no matter how good, bad, or ugly. Thank you for your devotion to that.
Matthew brings up a great point: if people made a wrong choice in the preexistence as the curse suggests, why wouldn’t the atonement allow people to repent?
At the beginning, around 8:30, there's talk about BYU religion professors wanting to keep Mormon Doctrine alive. I'll bet $50 one of those was Robert Millet. I took a religion class from him in the 90s. (It was "The Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible. Oh how I wish I could go back and all some questions now that i know a little more!) I very specifically remember a discussion during class one day. I raised my hand and asked about Bruce R McConkie calling the Catholic church the church of the devil in Mormon Doctrine. Bob Millet spoke so sharply to me that I thought I'd instantly failed the class. He stood up for McConkie and said, "Woah! People speak poorly of him, but he was one of the greatest scholars the church has ever had!"
I was taught this DOCTRINE when we first got to America in 1963, after converting to the church in our home of Hamburg, Germany, when I was twelve. I had been a believing Catholic in a Lutheran area of Germany, but had two times already been gripped by doubt when taught things I didn't believe our God could have decreed. So I was willing to be converted, but it happened separate from my parents. But when my mother told me about the ban, I was beyond shocked! In both my Catholic doubts and this one, it was an issue of unfairness, something I though no god I could believe in would hold or expect from us! He had to be perfect, and thus, completely just and fair! I did not abandon the church as a twelve year old, but as soon as I laid my hands on "No Man Knows My History," I had many other reasons to! I remain the only one who deliberately left the church. I am 73, so one of the people who had to live with this horrible ban, and I can attest that it WAS doctrine, and was preached from the pulpit, and held by all! I do understand, however, why it was always much harder for the General Authorities to change doctrine than it's being suggested, here. It's not a matter of a new President sating, what the previous ones held was wrong, and this is what we believe, now. The narrative that has set us apart from other Christian religions is that we had a PROPHET at the head of the church! All the others relied on prophecy in the Bible, and were men would reinterpret and mess with s ripture and ancient revelation, so surely by now it was wrong. But we were led by a man who talks to God! So how could another one come along and declare the prior one was wrong! How could God be made to look so changeable, so fickle?! No, they had to backpeddle publicly without seeming to shake the firm foundation we were being taught God is! As the popularity of open acceptance of diversity grew, they were caught between a rock and a hard pkace! They were forced to walk that high wire! Still, I'm glad that is behind them, but super pissed off that I had to live through that!
Minute 1:11 I had a mission companion say the same thing to me, just unbelievable how pervasive it was. I also heard the “you must have been less valiant in the pre-existence” thing. It boggled my mind. I’m a lamanite descendant from Lehi, my mother is actually descended from Sephardic Jews, the actual chosen people! how then are white European descendants with no Hebrew blood claiming to be more worthy?
It's complicated. They invented lineage adoption of ethnic groups and then established themselves as the tribe of Ephraim for the most part. The one that got the birthright! How convenient huh?! They still have that vile practice. "Patriarchs" give patriarchal blessings that assigns a lineage to members, and for the most part, American white people are assigned to Ephraim and Latinos to Manasseh. This bullshit goes on as we speak.
I served a mission too. Although I was not told that I knew there’s was some sense of superiority that came once in a while with U.S. missionaries. Sad.
Alexis Tocqueville said America’s deep rooted racism would be the undoing of democracy. As recent events show, this might not be untrue. Whether it’s the Mormon church or society at large, we have never properly addressed this sin of racism.
150 years before the first English settlers came to America, the Spanish had already integrated the indigenous people into their culture, religion and society. Even so that the queen of Spain would influence Spanish conquistadores to marry indigenous woman in order to make them their allies. You don’t see this happening with the English. They came “looking for religion freedom” just to exterminate and kill every single person who wouldn’t look like them. If that doesn’t explain how racism is deep rooted into the American culture nothing else will.
I would hate to assume sinister motives as to why BYUTV would air a program showcasing brotherly love and unity one night and then air another night a program on racist doctrine. My guess is to try and appease two different camps in the church. The more butts in the seats at church has always been the goal.
OK! I haven't bought his book yet, and now that it's almost Christmas, I must purchase this incredible book of history! My Christmas present for myself! Love this series! Thank-You! 😎♥️🎻
I would like to share 2 episodes I have been in the church context. 1) I was in the Sunday school in an American ward in Lehi when the teacher was talking about lamanites falling into iniquity “again”. One of the members, a sister sarcastically said: no wonder their skin started to darken again. She gave a big laugh about her comment. I could not believe I heard that. 2) in 2019 finishing my Pathway with the church, a Mexican student was supposed to teach us the spiritual lesson for that week and her husband was there to support her. He decided to share his testimony about his father-in-law and his life changed when he accepted the gospel, how better person he was, blah, blah, blah. Compulsively crying he finished his testimony saying: I saw a miracle happening to my father-in-law. I saw his skin lightening. Unbelievable. It was sad that for both situations, nobody said a word back saying that statements were WRONG, including me.
The Race & the Priesthood essay was definitive proof to me that the church's apostles and prophets don't have the powers they claim to have. They can't tell whether they're speaking for God or just "products of their time" and "speaking as a man." That these reasons could be taught as doctrine for 180 years only to have them relegated to "theories" when the doctrines became too much of an embarrassment shows a distinct lack of prophetic ability. Instead, it makes it very clear that prophets and apostles are just teaching us the philosophies of men, mingled with scripture, and I can do a better job determining right from wrong than they can.
Time stamp 1:41 even today in the come follow me BOM manual they still teach curse narratives and don’t acknowledge that Lehi only cursed Laman and Lemuel not the children. They still don’t acknowledge that Mormon called the Nephites a cursed and damned people and were ultimately wiped off the face of the earth. While the descendants of Laman and Lemuel inherited the promised land.
Matt, you need to write a book on racism against Native Americans by the church. The extermination order by Brigham Young against the Timpanogos Tribe, The Circleville massacre, Provo River massacre, Bear river massacre, Mountain meadows massacre (blamed pauites) etc. The history is horrible.
I've been following this series closely, and it has been really good. But, Matt, why on earth would Doubleday need the Church's permission to publish an edition of the Book of Mormon? It had been in the public domain for decades by that point, not to mention being shared by other denominations in the Restoration movement. Maybe you meant they needed the Church's promotion in order to succeed in profiting from it?
I have loved the series. I would like to make exception to one comment. The comment about appeasing the members in the south. I am a multi-generational member whose family moved to the foothills of the Appalachian Mountains when I was five years old. I attended a segregated school in the first grade. Our schools integrated in our region when I was in the second grade. It was my Utah grandparents, bishop, stake president counselor and patriarch who shocked my mother when they told her they not happy that she was letting her children attend a school with "negro students". I only attended BYU my first year of college, however I saw far more racism there than I did at the small college I attended close to home my last 3 years. I know that mine is a limited sample but I saw far more racism in the church in Utah than I ever did growing up in the south.
I can still remember as a young girl from divorced parents having to sit away from people of higher standing. God was white in our Church but his followers all had skin colour ranging many shades depending on where they stood within that community. Years later I travelled to the country of God & was happy to see he was the same colour as the people. Man has stepped away from the Bible & let in many problems with their made up laws & doctrines to suit their particular religion. Sad times indeed. We should love everyone no matter where they stand in society we should all just get along. Life is so short the older I get I see harbouring racism etc takes up so much energy, causing many problems. The world is big enough for all of us ❤
Idk if it’s spoken against later but to white Americans there’s even a distinction between black Americans and subsaharan blacks. A statement from Morrison based on experience in sub Saharan Africa may still different than blacks in America. Think about it he had to travel across continents to make this statement. We are different in the eyes of whites. Missionaries even today will go to different continents to help blacks and even to adopt but won’t show an ounce of compassion towards blacks in their own country. Many don’t want equality for the black race in their own country. We are different with we are in your backyard than a continent away. Blacks in America know this as well as blacks in the other parts of the world, especially Africa.
The church's essay on Race & the Priesthood works hard to imply a meaning without actually saying it: "Today, the Church disavows the theories advanced in the past that black skin is a sign of divine disfavor or curse, or that it reflects unrighteous actions in a premortal life; that mixed-race marriages are a sin; or that blacks or people of any other race or ethnicity are inferior in any way to anyone else. Church leaders today unequivocally condemn all racism, past and present, in any form." Miriam Webster's definition of disavow: "to deny responsibility for." They're not denouncing these reasons for the curse, they're not saying the reasons were wrong. They're just relegating them to the class of "theories" that you don't really have to believe like they used to. And while they say they condemn all racism, past and present, they're not actually saying these previous teachings are racist, nor are they apologizing for them. Mormons that hold on to these beliefs don't think they're being racist, they think they're just following the word of God as delivered by past prophets and apostles. While TBMs who are disturbed by these teachings can read this essay and think the church is both apologizing for these past teachings and declaring them wrong, when really it does neither.
His is supposed to be a teacher… that is why the Bible includes the good, the bad, and the ugly regarding the character of the prophets. We learn about consequences and grace this way. To change the past and rewrite it is horrible and dishonest. I have old journals of the past. Those journals show truth… This is much like the changing of the US past… where we neglected the side of the Indigenous. The truth will always land on top. Always.
Matthew Harris is kinder in conclusion than I am. Repudiating past teachings without apologizing is progress, and substantially better than the 1978 consensus doctrine/policy change. But it still falls short of what one would expect from "the one true church" led by Jesus Christ himself. This Christ directed Joseph Smith in very minor details on all kinds of topics, and at the same time was either silent or misleading on race doctrine while his mouthpieces said and did racist things in His name for over 150 years. This Christ then figures things out well after society points out and pressures the church about racism. But no apology from the church. Make it make sense.
Just to be clear: I think an apology is necessary, and I've stated this repeatedly in public venues when I think the right people might be in the room. While I'm pleased that the church is giving money to the NAACP, it doesn't replace an apology.
The Book of Mormon is racist. The Nephites and Lamanites... the roots of the religion... It's a racist foundation that makes the whole religion false, no matter what they do or say now.
It would be nice to have a black person on this program. It feels like you're talking about black people and not including them as you do the same thing.
In 2017 I got permission from my Bishop at the time to teach a 5th Sunday lesson on the Race and Priesthood Essay. I got the idea after reading Paul Reeves book ‘Religion of a different color’. I reached out to Paul to get some of his curriculum to use for my lesson. Having a black husband and biracial children made this topic front and center on my mind for a long time and I NEEDED to get this information out there. The pushback from some of my Ward members was obnoxious. A member of the stake presidency felt the need to attend and completely undermine the lesson at the end. I really really appreciate this series with Mathew Harris!
I'm sorry this happened to you. I'm sure you gave a great lesson. The fact that your stake presidency person had to say something is evident that he is uncomfortable grappling with the church's racism. It's a function of the church not having meaningful conversations about its anti-Black theology. And thank you for your support. I hope that these episodes--and my book--will provide you with a better understanding of the church and race.
@ thank you yes your book most definitely has helped. True scholarship will truly stand the test of time no matter how good, bad, or ugly. Thank you for your devotion to that.
Matthew brings up a great point: if people made a wrong choice in the preexistence as the curse suggests, why wouldn’t the atonement allow people to repent?
" They don't want to offend a predecessor" because it would show the faithful that there is no devine prophecy to their doctrine.
The way Matt told them "do what is right, let the consequence follow" was a power move and I'm glad he did it ❤
Wow! Thank you John and Dr. Harris!!!!
At the beginning, around 8:30, there's talk about BYU religion professors wanting to keep Mormon Doctrine alive. I'll bet $50 one of those was Robert Millet. I took a religion class from him in the 90s. (It was "The Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible. Oh how I wish I could go back and all some questions now that i know a little more!) I very specifically remember a discussion during class one day. I raised my hand and asked about Bruce R McConkie calling the Catholic church the church of the devil in Mormon Doctrine. Bob Millet spoke so sharply to me that I thought I'd instantly failed the class. He stood up for McConkie and said, "Woah! People speak poorly of him, but he was one of the greatest scholars the church has ever had!"
So interesting looking back with new eyes.
Thanks!
I was taught this DOCTRINE when we first got to America in 1963, after converting to the church in our home of Hamburg, Germany, when I was twelve. I had been a believing Catholic in a Lutheran area of Germany, but had two times already been gripped by doubt when taught things I didn't believe our God could have decreed. So I was willing to be converted, but it happened separate from my parents. But when my mother told me about the ban, I was beyond shocked! In both my Catholic doubts and this one, it was an issue of unfairness, something I though no god I could believe in would hold or expect from us! He had to be perfect, and thus, completely just and fair! I did not abandon the church as a twelve year old, but as soon as I laid my hands on "No Man Knows My History," I had many other reasons to! I remain the only one who deliberately left the church. I am 73, so one of the people who had to live with this horrible ban, and I can attest that it WAS doctrine, and was preached from the pulpit, and held by all! I do understand, however, why it was always much harder for the General Authorities to change doctrine than it's being suggested, here. It's not a matter of a new President sating, what the previous ones held was wrong, and this is what we believe, now. The narrative that has set us apart from other Christian religions is that we had a PROPHET at the head of the church! All the others relied on prophecy in the Bible, and were men would reinterpret and mess with s ripture and ancient revelation, so surely by now it was wrong. But we were led by a man who talks to God! So how could another one come along and declare the prior one was wrong! How could God be made to look so changeable, so fickle?! No, they had to backpeddle publicly without seeming to shake the firm foundation we were being taught God is! As the popularity of open acceptance of diversity grew, they were caught between a rock and a hard pkace! They were forced to walk that high wire! Still, I'm glad that is behind them, but super pissed off that I had to live through that!
Minute 1:11 I had a mission companion say the same thing to me, just unbelievable how pervasive it was. I also heard the “you must have been less valiant in the pre-existence” thing. It boggled my mind. I’m a lamanite descendant from Lehi, my mother is actually descended from Sephardic Jews, the actual chosen people! how then are white European descendants with no Hebrew blood claiming to be more worthy?
It's complicated. They invented lineage adoption of ethnic groups and then established themselves as the tribe of Ephraim for the most part. The one that got the birthright! How convenient huh?!
They still have that vile practice. "Patriarchs" give patriarchal blessings that assigns a lineage to members, and for the most part, American white people are assigned to Ephraim and Latinos to Manasseh. This bullshit goes on as we speak.
Folklore
@@manuelvillalobos682white settlers mythology like the Moundbuilders myth!!😂😂😂anything to make themselves feel good!!!😂😂😂
I served a mission too. Although I was not told that I knew there’s was some sense of superiority that came once in a while with U.S. missionaries. Sad.
Alexis Tocqueville said America’s deep rooted racism would be the undoing of democracy. As recent events show, this might not be untrue. Whether it’s the Mormon church or society at large, we have never properly addressed this sin of racism.
150 years before the first English settlers came to America, the Spanish had already integrated the indigenous people into their culture, religion and society. Even so that the queen of Spain would influence Spanish conquistadores to marry indigenous woman in order to make them their allies. You don’t see this happening with the English. They came “looking for religion freedom” just to exterminate and kill every single person who wouldn’t look like them. If that doesn’t explain how racism is deep rooted into the American culture nothing else will.
I would hate to assume sinister motives as to why BYUTV would air a program showcasing brotherly love and unity one night and then air another night a program on racist doctrine. My guess is to try and appease two different camps in the church. The more butts in the seats at church has always been the goal.
Imagine if an apostle called other things “folklore” (Adam & Eve, Lehi’s family landing in America, Brigham’s transfiguration, etc)
Thanks!😊😊
It’s amazing how education on social matters can open ones eyes to inequality.
So true! People need to take time to read ans educate themselves on everything.
OK! I haven't bought his book yet, and now that it's almost Christmas, I must purchase this incredible book of history! My Christmas present for myself! Love this series! Thank-You! 😎♥️🎻
My take was reading between the lines when they suggest they abhor racism past and present. It’s a gentle nudge implying we were racist.
"Everybody was racist, just a thing of the times" So goes the excuse.
I would like to share 2 episodes I have been in the church context. 1) I was in the Sunday school in an American ward in Lehi when the teacher was talking about lamanites falling into iniquity “again”. One of the members, a sister sarcastically said: no wonder their skin started to darken again. She gave a big laugh about her comment. I could not believe I heard that. 2) in 2019 finishing my Pathway with the church, a Mexican student was supposed to teach us the spiritual lesson for that week and her husband was there to support her. He decided to share his testimony about his father-in-law and his life changed when he accepted the gospel, how better person he was, blah, blah, blah. Compulsively crying he finished his testimony saying: I saw a miracle happening to my father-in-law. I saw his skin lightening. Unbelievable. It was sad that for both situations, nobody said a word back saying that statements were WRONG, including me.
The Race & the Priesthood essay was definitive proof to me that the church's apostles and prophets don't have the powers they claim to have. They can't tell whether they're speaking for God or just "products of their time" and "speaking as a man." That these reasons could be taught as doctrine for 180 years only to have them relegated to "theories" when the doctrines became too much of an embarrassment shows a distinct lack of prophetic ability. Instead, it makes it very clear that prophets and apostles are just teaching us the philosophies of men, mingled with scripture, and I can do a better job determining right from wrong than they can.
Ooops. We ALL have African lineage. Even the lily white brethren.
Time stamp 1:41 even today in the come follow me BOM manual they still teach curse narratives and don’t acknowledge that Lehi only cursed Laman and Lemuel not the children. They still don’t acknowledge that Mormon called the Nephites a cursed and damned people and were ultimately wiped off the face of the earth. While the descendants of Laman and Lemuel inherited the promised land.
I would really really love the “uncut” (directors cut) of this book! Nothing left out!! I’m sure a lot of people would buy it!!
The uncut book is nearly 150 pp longer!
@matthewharris7151 sounds like a limited edition supplemental volume would be a nice to have collector's item. Or at least an online version.
Matt, you need to write a book on racism against Native Americans by the church. The extermination order by Brigham Young against the Timpanogos Tribe, The Circleville massacre, Provo River massacre, Bear river massacre, Mountain meadows massacre (blamed pauites) etc. The history is horrible.
I've been following this series closely, and it has been really good. But, Matt, why on earth would Doubleday need the Church's permission to publish an edition of the Book of Mormon? It had been in the public domain for decades by that point, not to mention being shared by other denominations in the Restoration movement. Maybe you meant they needed the Church's promotion in order to succeed in profiting from it?
My cat hears your voice and perks up now 😂
❤
I have loved the series. I would like to make exception to one comment. The comment about appeasing the members in the south. I am a multi-generational member whose family moved to the foothills of the Appalachian Mountains when I was five years old. I attended a segregated school in the first grade. Our schools integrated in our region when I was in the second grade. It was my Utah grandparents, bishop, stake president counselor and patriarch who shocked my mother when they told her they not happy that she was letting her children attend a school with "negro students". I only attended BYU my first year of college, however I saw far more racism there than I did at the small college I attended close to home my last 3 years. I know that mine is a limited sample but I saw far more racism in the church in Utah than I ever did growing up in the south.
I can still remember as a young girl from divorced parents having to sit away from people of higher standing. God was white in our Church but his followers all had skin colour ranging many shades depending on where they stood within that community. Years later I travelled to the country of God & was happy to see he was the same colour as the people. Man has stepped away from the Bible & let in many problems with their made up laws & doctrines to suit their particular religion. Sad times indeed. We should love everyone no matter where they stand in society we should all just get along. Life is so short the older I get I see harbouring racism etc takes up so much energy, causing many problems. The world is big enough for all of us ❤
Idk if it’s spoken against later but to white Americans there’s even a distinction between black Americans and subsaharan blacks. A statement from Morrison based on experience in sub Saharan Africa may still different than blacks in America. Think about it he had to travel across continents to make this statement. We are different in the eyes of whites.
Missionaries even today will go to different continents to help blacks and even to adopt but won’t show an ounce of compassion towards blacks in their own country. Many don’t want equality for the black race in their own country. We are different with we are in your backyard than a continent away. Blacks in America know this as well as blacks in the other parts of the world, especially Africa.
I’ve donated for production costs- one time donation plus ongoing monthly donation. I hope this was dedicated appropriately.
God and Jesus Christ can all be black !
Will you address the past and current stance of the LDS church and how they will react to the incoming U.S. Administration?
Likely not as this may have been recorded over 2 months ago! (listen to John's first few statements where he names the date of the recording)😇
July 24
Considering they supported Nazi Germany in the past what are you expecting their stance to be..
The church's essay on Race & the Priesthood works hard to imply a meaning without actually saying it:
"Today, the Church disavows the theories advanced in the past that black skin is a sign of divine disfavor or curse, or that it reflects unrighteous actions in a premortal life; that mixed-race marriages are a sin; or that blacks or people of any other race or ethnicity are inferior in any way to anyone else. Church leaders today unequivocally condemn all racism, past and present, in any form."
Miriam Webster's definition of disavow: "to deny responsibility for." They're not denouncing these reasons for the curse, they're not saying the reasons were wrong. They're just relegating them to the class of "theories" that you don't really have to believe like they used to. And while they say they condemn all racism, past and present, they're not actually saying these previous teachings are racist, nor are they apologizing for them. Mormons that hold on to these beliefs don't think they're being racist, they think they're just following the word of God as delivered by past prophets and apostles. While TBMs who are disturbed by these teachings can read this essay and think the church is both apologizing for these past teachings and declaring them wrong, when really it does neither.
His is supposed to be a teacher… that is why the Bible includes the good, the bad, and the ugly regarding the character of the prophets. We learn about consequences and grace this way. To change the past and rewrite it is horrible and dishonest. I have old journals of the past. Those journals show truth…
This is much like the changing of the US past… where we neglected the side of the Indigenous. The truth will always land on top. Always.
Matthew Harris is kinder in conclusion than I am. Repudiating past teachings without apologizing is progress, and substantially better than the 1978 consensus doctrine/policy change. But it still falls short of what one would expect from "the one true church" led by Jesus Christ himself. This Christ directed Joseph Smith in very minor details on all kinds of topics, and at the same time was either silent or misleading on race doctrine while his mouthpieces said and did racist things in His name for over 150 years. This Christ then figures things out well after society points out and pressures the church about racism. But no apology from the church. Make it make sense.
Just to be clear: I think an apology is necessary, and I've stated this repeatedly in public venues when I think the right people might be in the room. While I'm pleased that the church is giving money to the NAACP, it doesn't replace an apology.
Anyone know what “adopted in” means?
Update: If we are ALL gods children why do some of us need to be adopted?
, it's just not for me, and I will have to complain to youtube if I'm not blocked. Thank you
I am sick and tired of this pre- existence story. Where is the proof for this? Another made up story which depicts God as a spiteful cretin.
Lord!
Did this church forget jesus was born in the middle east?? Therefore he himself was brown.
What about the 2020 come follow me lessons
The Book of Mormon is racist. The Nephites and Lamanites... the roots of the religion... It's a racist foundation that makes the whole religion false, no matter what they do or say now.
Hmmm…🙄
Modern racism in general and justification for slavery in America's past came from the Bible.
Also I have seen black true angels
Hence
God created black people equally
so only mormons were racists, not any other religious people? really?
beam meet mote.
Nation of Islam
1st 4.5 minutes begging for funding.
Not subscribed, so not recommend.
Yeah - that tension between John and Matt over their financial arrangement is really detracting from the message.
It would be nice to have a black person on this program. It feels like you're talking about black people and not including them as you do the same thing.
They have had several black people on here talking about this subject in the past.
@markkrispin6944 I guess I missed it. They haven't been included in any of this series. 😔
@@TheIndividualChannelSummur Raine was on 1 or 2 episodes on this subject. Both are so awesome!
Thanks!