The most wild thing about an outfielder committing 13 errors in a season is a error is only scored if the outfielder got to the ball and still failed to catch it. If you let an easily catchable ball drop in front of you or if you badly misplay a ball to the point where if goes over your head without you touching it, it is scored a hit.
Yeah, meaning his defence was likely even worse than it looks. Slow guy + Coors = lots of missed balls that aren't scored as an error. I guess having shit range is one way to keep your errors down; you miss plays that more athletic players can make, but you also have less opportunities to make those errors...
Fun Fact: After the 99 season, Bichette was traded to Cincinnati for fellow outfielder, Jeffrey Hammonds. Not only would Hammonds make an All Star team in his only Colorado season in 2000, but also finished with a war higher than Bichette ever had at over 2.
@@leonzaduncan2438 If anything it shows the use of WAR, encompasses the whole player while comparing them to their peers at the time. It is way less useful when it comes to comparing across generations and instead is super useful when comparing how dominant a player is in their respective era. Babe Ruth has the highest WAR ever, is he better than Mike Trout facing today's pitchers? Probably not, but he is easily the most dominant player ever. Same can go for showing how much a player contributes to their team. Bo passing his dad for career WAR in his third season just shows that Bo is contributing more to his teams success overall than his father.
@@juliebraden6911 esoteric - intended for or likely to be understood by only a small number of people with a specialized knowledge or interest. Both Bichette's career and bWAR fit the description. Learn the language before you criticize how others use it. Moron.
"Kong" struck out a LOT. That particular year, he fanned 156 times, his career "high". I can't see what his RISP numbers are (I don't think they were commonly tracked at the time), or how many runners he failed to advance, but it's quite possible that Kingman, being the "outhouse or castle" hitter that he was, and fairly low on the Sac Fly count (but he did league the AL in '84 at Oakland) most of his career, I'd say he tended to fan in the clutch. Anyone remember his games to say "yeah" or "nay" on that? Nothing wrong with clubbing home runs and driving in runners, but if the bulk of the production comes when there's a sizeable lead, either way, then it simply means that Kingman could crush fastballs when he got them to hit, but, otherwise, couldn't hit breaking pitches? A lot of guys can absolutely murder a fastball, but can't handle the breaking stuff, nor do they have sufficient plate discipline to either "work the count" or frustrate the pitcher into throwing something in their "wheelhouse". Baseball is very much a psychological game; and often it's a matter, between pitcher and batter, of whose will prevails.
1999 was the year the importance of defense was burned into my brain. Mainly because I went to many home games and heard our season ticket holder friend bust out her favorite line of the year -- "Dante, honey, the ball's over there." -- at least once a game on average.
the first MLB game I ever went to was at Coors in 1997 and Dante Bichette hit a monster homer to centerfield that is still burned in my memory. that homer is a huge reason I’m such a big baseball fan today. love me some Dante Bichette
@@alexisborden3191Yeah, Bo is a 20th percentile fielder with a 90th percentile bat as a SS, Dante is 1st percentile defender with a 60th percentile bat as a LF. Not exactly comparable
You forgot to mention that one of the biggest WAR factors i position played. The reason Simmons was so high at WAR is because he played SS, while Dante played LF. It's not impressive to rake as a DH, 1b, or corner OF. But it is impressive as a CF, catcher, or middle infielder. Likewise, great defense is more important at SS than it is at 1b. The reason Mike trout has off the chart WAR stats every year is because he's the best offensive player in baseball WHILE PLAYING centerfield.
This exact situation has had me considering making a TH-cam channel for years just to talk about it. His career WAR is just absurd. Glad you made a video on it.
@@JD-jc8gp yup. One was 2nd in MVP voting and the other was 3rd. They were literally as close to each other in terms of performance caliber as you can get
I remember learning about fetal alcohol syndrome and the face associated with it in high school. This led me to realize Dante looked like FAS Gary Gaetti. Never been able to unsee it since.
This is more of an indictment on WAR, especially when it comes to multiple outliers/extremes like park factors, league environment, playing a weak defensive position, woo pre-statcast defensive metrics, and being a poor defensive outfielder. For him to have those offensive stats and still be truly -2 wins under a replacement player, he would have been so bad that he wouldn't have been the regular LF'r. He'd have been a pinch hitter or traded to an AL team to DH. There'd be articles of pitchers not wanting him to play when they're on the mound and likely articles about Rockies fans feeling the same way.
No player benefitted more from the Colorado thin air in the 90's than Dante Bichette. Just look at his career home/road splits. He was a hall of famer at Coors and barely a league average hitter everywhere else.
I feel like this discussion on WAR is more relevant than ever with the current MVP race. It has been brought up more and more ever since Trout came on the scene as determining value. I think it is a great single stat for determining general value. That being said I don’t believe it should be used for comparing players within ~2 or so WAR as the stat still does have its shortcomings and for lack of a better word doesn’t value the intangibles.
Not sure if the media was already talking about a Coors effect in 1995, since that was the first season the Rockies played there, but I don't remember anyone talking about WAR before the mid-2000s. I feel like 2012, when Miggy won the Triple Crown, was the first time I heard about it specifically in an MVP debate. Anyway, Greg Maddux in 1995: 19-2, 1.62 ERA, 260 ERA+, 2.26 FIP, .811 WHIP. He won his 4th straight Cy Young, but easily could have added MVP to that.
@@marcusy.6372 The main things are very questionable defense at short and (so far in 2022) extremely poor plate discipline. I don't like his approach at the plate at all, but he's a skilled enough hitter to be good despite his approach.
@@michael-fw3vz worked well enough for him to be an all star last year. I still think it’s too early in the year to make broad statements about him, and he’s seriously heating up currently. As for the defence, it worries me a bit but he was very good in the second half of last season. I expect him to pick it up and regain his form. The league has adjusted to him, so he needs to re-adjust to the league
@@mattcollett9370 Yeah his approach so far this year has been odd to see given how comparatively solid it was last year. He still chased out of the zone way more than I'd prefer but this year has been a different beast. He's a great shortstop all things considered, he's just not the type of player I think will be terribly consistent throughout his career
@@michael-fw3vz even though he’s had a couple seasons in the bigs, he’s still only 24. Valid if you think he’ll be inconsistent throughout his career, but I don’t want to go that far yet especially since he’s been well above average far more than he’s been average
I'm not happy that the DH was imposed upon the NL; I appreciate the subtleties of having the pitcher bat and calculating when to take him out if his bat's that bad. I can also appreciate pitchers that hit well like MadBum, or, some 30+ years ago, the "Caveman", Donn Robinson of the Pirates/Giants. I saw Caveman hit a few home runs, once a walk-off PINCH HITTING to win a game. Conversely, one thing I do like about the DH is that it gives aging, bulky sluggers who have persistent knee troubles and can't field their position anyway a lease on life. The best example, IMO, was Frank Thomas, aka "Big Hurt". Having played a LONG time with the White Sox, where he could also DH and did, Thomas looked like he was washed up in 2006 when Oakland signed him for $3.1 M . That was a bit "spendy" for Billy Beane, but "Big Hurt' earned his pay very well, with 39 HRs and 114 RBIs, and Oakland not only won 93 games and the AL West, but, for the first time since 1990, won a post-season series (but would fall to Detroit, who was unbeatable that year, in the ALCS). Thomas signed for about $18M over the next two seasons with Toronto, and had decent numbers in 2007, but 2008 he tailed off, and was released, Oakland picked him up again, but "Hurt" was done. Just imagine what Barry Bonds could have done for Tampa Bay in 2008, as he did nearly sign with them to DH, as they did win the AL pennant, but fell, 4-1, to Philadelphia, who had their own "bruiser", Ryan Howard. I give Howard credit for being loyal to the Phillies, but he's another than probably could have helped an AL team with his bat.
I found the nuance of pitcher batting overrated, i knew what the decision would be at least 98 percent of the time. And for all the MadBum talk, he only hit over .200 3 times.
Its funny. WAR wasnt exactly popular among voting media in the nineties. He batted in over 100 and 35 homers. An average replacement player will have enough defense to thwart a offensive juggernaut? Something not right to me. Who can help me understand? Great videos. Thanks for posting
Bichette is measured against other left fielders when calculating offensive WAR. While his numbers are good, there are a lot of power hitters patrolling left in MLB, which makes his numbers less impressive. If he was hitting like that at 2nd, it would be worth a lot more.
It's basically explained at 6:50. An average left fielder in 1999 who plays at coors field would bat an amazing .327/.395/.557 . So his offense was surprisingly not that of a juggernaut, but just 2% better than an average hitter for his position at the time and place (102 OPS+). It's the combination of being the steroid era, playing a position that isn't challenging defensively so has a lot of good hitters in that position, and playing half the games at coors field that makes his offense less impressive than it would appear at a glance.
@Macc Attacc Bill James discusses WAR in the early 1980s in the Historical Baseball Abstract. Baseball Prospectus was using a modern WAR as we'd know it -- VORP and then WARP -- in the early 1990s.
One thing to also understand is that WAR is VERY positional in nature. A shortstop who plays excellent defense and puts up a .280/.390/.480 slash, steals 18 bases without getting caught more than 3 or 4 times and plays a full season is going to have a much, much higher WAR than a first baseman or left fielder or right fielder who puts up similar offensive numbers. So let's take 1995, the year Bichette lost the MVP to Barry Larkin. Larkin not only had an OPS of .886 while playing shortstop, he also stole 51 bases (caught just 5 times) and won a gold glove at shortstop (although modern stats suggest he may have been overrated defensively.) Add to that, the Reds won the NL Central that year (which for old school MVP voters carried a little weight) and there you go.
@@chrishornbostel9831 yeah, but nobody in the bigs cared about Bill James in the early 90's. That's why he played such a big role in moneyball at the end of the 90's
His war is a lot lower than it should be because of park effect errors in the total zone system, probably from the sketchy batted ball data of the 90s. He is 23 runs worse at home than on the road according to war, so he wasn't really that bad in the field. Still not a good season, but the over-reliance on war makes it seems a lot worse than it is.
I love baseball and I never knew this guy was that good offensively.. I knew Big Cat, Walker and Helton but didn’t know this guy was up there with them..
As someone who was growing up in this era and who was a fan of Mike Hampton when he played for the Astros, I do have to point out that Hampton, despite being a pitcher, was generally a good hitter (with the Astros, playing the notoriously hitter-unfriendly Astrodome, he had two seasons where batted over .300 with an OPS+ of above 100!) Dude could hit, despite being a pitcher (and a good one at that).
The idea that Bichette's defense cost the Rockies 5 wins is ludicrous. However, he clearly drew an extra 25000 fans (at least.) He is to the Rockies what Meatloaf is to Rock and Roll.
What they need to do is to start implementing The R stat (runs) if they want to better guage a position players overal stats . When OPS was a hot topic on espn and mlb network a while back i half way came up with a way to calculate Off productivity and Def productivity. Off productivity is calculated by R (runs) added by what ever means batter got on base plus RBIs, if applicable, with each plate appearance...never figured out the magic dividing number but it would go something like this 1st Plate Appearance is 1R+1BB=2 2nd Plate Appearance is 1HR=(1H+2RBI+1R)=5 3rd Plate Appearance is 1RBI+1 triple=.5 4th plate appearance is 1R+1FC/OBBE=.5 5th appearance is 1R+1H=2 So his first appearance would give a value of 2 because he walked and in what ever form or fashion crossed the plate and scored. 2nd PA value is a 5 becauese a single hr automitcally gives you a value of 4 but if u hit a home run with runners on base u get an extra point (so a grand salami will give you a value of 7 i chose it this way because 1HR always brings up a player's value no matter the situation so why not) His 3rd PA gives him .5 since he did not manage to cross the plate but scored an rbi 4th appearance gives him .5 because FC/obbe (on base by error) only gives half a value (kinda goes hand in hand if you look at it like this. You got on base by error or a fc but you were able to score so that would count for something, and then on the other hand you hit a rbi triple with no outs but couldnt find a way to score? Half a point). 5th appearance u got on base wether it was a single double or triple and crossed home plate. So even if you hit a triple but did not or can't score you gets nothing. Now you add all those values you divide it by a magic number and then youll get offensive production value. So its basically slg% and obp but for Rs and RBIs Def production value would be put outs subtracted by your errors (0.5) and then subtracted by runs scored after your error (2) For this assist is not included because def production leans more towards calculating an overal individual players stats and if i could make the rules i would honestly throw away assist all together because getting a thrown out is a 2 way street player must field ball and throw it while other fielder MUST catch ball 4, 5, and 6 deserves to get a put out as much as the fat 1st baseman does (i am that 1st baseman 🤣) especially an outfielder dislocating his elbow to save a run. So Def Prod is just basically adding all individual put outs and subtracting it by errors and runs scored after erros. Web gems and OF/catcher throwing runners out is 2 points added to put out value and robbing a hr, or all individuals that played a roll in stopping a run that could have been will get you 3 points to your put out value and then add those points and divide it by some magic number that i could never figure out. Take the Off production value and the def prod value and put those two together and either divide it or leave it alone and then you have a Position Player's overal production value. This way we would have a better understanding of who actually produces runs and who isnt. who is causing the team runs due to having the jitters and who is causing errors because there was a 50 pitch AB with no outs and the fielder fell asleep on the play after pitch count 40. Hopefully this is better on paper than trying to calculate a player base off of their location and an imaginary cooperstown caliber replacement guy
Bo will never be the hitter that Dante was, he's just supposedly not as bad in the field. But comparing a middle infielder to a corner outfielder is kinda difficult, if you stuck Bo in left or right field permanently he may well be just as bad.
Great analysis. However, 5:06, I think you meant "above negative 10." -5 is above -10. -15 is below -10. I think the point you were making was that -19 was his all time worst and those other seasons, while not great, were not even as bad as -10 ... they were slightly above that value. But, I really liked this video. Thanks.
What I would want to know is the result of Bichette's errors, i.e., what happened afterward. Innings continued, runs scored as a result of the errors, etc. Because without that, all his WAR numbers are just something some nerd put together to make an argument (or a video). His errors could have led to ten runs, or they could have led to one run. He could have lost 5 games, or his errors could have cost the Rockies no games. And any losses would have to be DIRECTLY attributable to Bichette's errors. Doable, but like the man said, the Rockies were horrible that year. No one knew what the hell WAR was in 1999 (except maybe Bill James) and no one cared. You don't even need WAR to know Bichette was a great hitter and a terrible fielder. You could tell from the statistics people had already been using for a hundred years. Obviously, the Rockies manager and leadership were okay with the tradeoff of bad defense for good offense, probably because some errors are worse than others. That's something an advanced statistic doesn't take into account. An error is an error when it comes to WAR. But each error has a result. Most times it's an inning extended by one hitter who promptly makes an out and there's no damage. Sometimes it costs a run or a game. But that doesn't get put into the formula. Bottom line: any manager would find room for Bichette on their team in 1999, even with the poor defense. He just didn't get the accolades or the hardware. He got the money, though, so good on him.
Some other things that don’t get taken into account with war? Fielder range. Size of the field (particularly important in outfielders, particularly in a stadium like… idk… coors renowned for its MASSIVE outfield). Human error (as in the official scorer ruling a tough play an error instead of a hit). Logic. Common sense.
For the 2000 season Todd Helton lead the NL in hits, doubles, RBI's, average, OBP, OPS, Slugging, and rWAR. He was second in runs, fourth in walks, and seventh in home runs. He slashed .391/.484/.758 at Coors and .353/.441/.633 on the road. He played first base but went on to win the Gold Glove in 3 of the next 4 years. He finished FIFTH in MVP voting that year. FIFTH! Why? Coors. Larry Walker won the MVP in 1997 because he was already established as a great player before he went to Colorado. Helton played his entire career for the Rockies so voters always questioned the legitimacy of his production. He got robbed of the MVP in 2000 worse than anyone ever has except Ted Williams and maybe Mickey Mantle. He should be a slam dunk HoFer, too.
I agree. Carlos Correa has a negative out above average the last 2 seasons, and I've seen him play every day. He's one of the best I've ever seen field a ball
Dude led the league in Hits HRs, RBIs and Slg% in 1995 and still wasn't worth 2 wins above replacement. If that doesn't at least somewhat show the limitations of WAR and other analytics then nothing will. I get his defense was bad and he played at Coors, but he almost won the triple crown ffs
I knew Coors Field inflated stats. But I didn't think his stats were so drastically different until I checked his home and away splits. His road numbers were nowhere close to what they were at home. And he was poor in the field.
6:00 You don’t add (OBP/lgOBP)+(SLG/lgSLG), you add (OBP+SLG)/(lgOBP+lgSLG). The former (which is what you put in the video) would give an OPS+ of 200 for a perfectly average hitter. In general, (a+c)/(b+d) does not equal (a/b)+(c/d).
Just proves what I’ve been saying for the past 5/10 years since war became a thing. If you have to create algorithms to tell me why a player is good or bad, you’re literally just making shit up. War, wrc+ “defensive runs saved”, ops+. These are made up stats that mean absolutely nothing. I can make stuff up too. Did you know that Aaron judge is batting .000 in 2022, on the 6th Wednesday of any month? You do now… and that stat means exactly as much to me, and is exactly as significant as war…
Honestly, Larry Walker and Dante Bichette make for a pretty demonstration of WAR. Larry Walker, 1995-1999: 163 HR, 471 RBI, 92 SB, .344 BA. Dante Bichette, 1995-1999: 153 HR, 642 RBI, 70 SB, .318 BA Going by just those, you might think they're pretty similar players. But WAR shows a very different story: Larry Walker, 95-99: 26.6 WAR Dante Bichette, 95-99: 0.8 What really dragged Bichette down was his, by then, putrid defense, as highlighted in the video. 1999 was the lowlight, but over that 5 year period, Dante accumulated -75 runs compared to the average player from his (lack of) defense. Larry, Meanwhile, accumulated +11, and that was probably the *worst* defensive stretch of Larry Walker's career. However, despite seemingly comparable SB numbers, Dante was once again much worse on the basepaths. Larry gave the Rockies +18 runs with his baserunning, while Dante gave them -14. Larry stole bases at an 81.5% success rate - well above the 75% rule of thumb rate. Dante, meanwhile, stole bases at a 66% success rate - well below the three quarters threshold. Now, of course, the biggest difference comes in OBP. While Larry's BA is already better, his OBP blows Dante's away. Larry posts a .423 OBP in the period, while Dante posts a .355 OBP. Larry has an even bigger lead in SLG, beating Dante by 115 points there, .656 to .541. So we have two players who, on the surface, seem fairly similar, but one uses his team's outs efficiently, and the other does not. Outs are your resource as a baseball - spending them inefficiently is a recipe for losses.
Yes. Well, playing DH effects your WAR. Playing DH will you give the highest negative adjustment to the defence portion of WAR. The thought being that if a team plays you at DH then you must have no fielding utility.
Would MVP voters in the mid-90s really be looking at WAR when making thsir votes? Would that really be the main reason he missed it? From my memory of the time, a lot of voters would still have been going by the eye test at that point in time and their ideas about Coors.
You make an excellent point, one that I was going to make myself. Advanced metrics didn't really come to the forefront until about 2005 or 2006, maybe even a little later. The main reason Bichette didn't win the MVP in 1995 was because it was thought that Coors Field inflated his offensive numbers. If you look at his splits for that year it's basically true. On the road that year he hit .300, 9 HR, 45 RBI, & .473 SLG in 68 games, good numbers to be sure. However his home numbers that year were insane. He hit .378, 31 HR, 83 RBI, & .755 SLG in 71 games. Coors Field cost him the MVP that year not advanced metrics.
Coors field and his offensive numbers not really popping out too far beyond everyone else's during his time, yes. I presume the point was that WAR as a lot of people consider it is a pretty brutal statistic for poor-average fielders who are pretty good hitters, sure, but during offensive booms whilst playing half your games at coors.
Love the pairing with Matt Stairs in passing. Stairs would ditch the field by becoming one of the best pinch hitters in baseball history, Bichette just got to embarrass himself.
@Lighthouse in the Storm no voter was deciding bichettes candidacy based on war or total zone in the 90s. While there are many fielders great at eye test with bad metrics and vice versa, there are also many who have both bad eye test and basic metrics and bad advanced metric fielding stats (and vice versa). Bichette was awful at both to the point the voters, deciding purely on fielding eye test, that he wasnt worthy of the award. Coors probably had something to do with it as well.
Very glad to see Bichette (specifically his 1995 season) get some shine on YT. One thing you should have made a point of straight up when addressing that years’ MVP race was just how close to winning the Triple Crown he got. He led in HR and RBI with 40 and 128, respectively AND HE BATTED .3friggin40. That is mental. It would have won a TC were it not for Mike Piazza batting .346 playing less than 120 games and Tony Gwynn having a .368 season with just 15 SO in 535 AB. I think WAR is a dumb stat because you need to look at it in so many different contexts to gleam any sort of value from it. It is overly complex and just masturbatory material for aspiring sabermetricians to ogle.
WAR isn't a stat. It's a combination of many different stats and it puts those stats into context. You have a fundamental misunderstanding of what it is used for
I know this is irrelevant but I cant help but notice his swing and how Bo has basically the exact same swing just a little bit more polished and maybe more violent
To quote Edwin Starr - "War...huh...yeah What is it good for? Absolutely nothing Uh ha haa ha War...huh...yeah What is it good for? Absolutely nothing...say it again y'all War..huh...look out... What is it good for? Absolutely nothing...listen to me ohhhhh"
Did WAR exist back then? I think Barry Larkin won MVP in 1995 because 1) his team won the Central, 2) he was a shortstop, which held a lot of weight in the 90's, 3) Bichette wasn't the best player on his team,
Exactly all of those things. Larkin was an established star at the time. If WAR is such an indicator why didn't Greg Maddux (9.2), Barry bonds (7.5), Reggie Sanders (6.6), Craig Biggio (6.3) or Mike Piazza (6.2) win it over Larkin with his 5.9? This video wants to make it seem like WAR is a good evaluator but there are just too many variables. It is almost like a too many cook spoil the pot situation.
@@claytoncourtney1309 those guys didn't win because nobody knew what WAR even was back then. You're assuming that the voting totals tell the truth and that the WAR figures are misleading, instead of it being the other way around.
Can a terrible pitching staff skew park factors? Let's say, for argument's sake, that the '99 Rockies had the worst staff of that era. Or how about ever? Hitters tore them up all year, posting ridiculous numbers in Coors. Would that then punish Colorado's hitters, by skewing the park factor? And vice versa. What if they had a magnificent staff and hitters did nothing in Coors. Would that boost Rockies hitters via lowered park factor?
Coors field for you. Fun thing to play around with. Take any great hitter from the Rockies- Helton, Arenado, etc etc. They'll have an OPS of about 100 higher at home vs on the road. In any other park, the OPS always comes out practically even.
Rockies TH-camr Jolly Olive
I share allegiance to no other team.
@@JollyOlive THE METS
@@JollyOlive
Blevins rn: 😢
“The best type of WAR is the one that supports your argument”- Ben Franklin
-Foolish Baseball
most underrated american president
@@danielmatten4501 - Michael Scott
"A run saved is a run earned"
Ben was an fwar guy
Dude he had an .895 OPS and a 102 OPS+. That’s insaneee. Steroid era + coors factor made him basically an average hitter that year
He made a career of being an average hitting terrible defender.
Bo is looking to go after his dad's figure so far this year.
Insaneeee?
What's funny after he was traded, he was still pretty good the next 2 years
Better than pretty good. @@leonzaduncan2438
Conversely, on that same team, Pedro Astacio posted a 5.04 ERA in 232 IP, which was good for a 115 ERA+ and 5.9 bWAR. You won't see that again.
Says a lot that it was the best a Rockies pitcher had ever really done until Ubaldo Jimenez came along.
@@SmoothCriminal12 ayy coors was REALLY that bad at the time
That’s Coors I guess
The most wild thing about an outfielder committing 13 errors in a season is a error is only scored if the outfielder got to the ball and still failed to catch it. If you let an easily catchable ball drop in front of you or if you badly misplay a ball to the point where if goes over your head without you touching it, it is scored a hit.
wouldnt wild throws that allow extra bases also count
If misjudging a ball led to an error, Kyle Schwarber would have 753 errors a season.
@@NothingToPointOut24 this is why ultimate zone rating is a thing.
Yeah, meaning his defence was likely even worse than it looks. Slow guy + Coors = lots of missed balls that aren't scored as an error. I guess having shit range is one way to keep your errors down; you miss plays that more athletic players can make, but you also have less opportunities to make those errors...
that's why errors are meaningless
Fun Fact: After the 99 season, Bichette was traded to Cincinnati for fellow outfielder, Jeffrey Hammonds. Not only would Hammonds make an All Star team in his only Colorado season in 2000, but also finished with a war higher than Bichette ever had at over 2.
You can say things without "fun fact". It isn't 2005 anymore.
Wild to think after Bo’s third season he already surpassed his dad in total career WAR
I noticed a similar result for Fernando Tatis, Jr.
@@JayTemple but Fernando tatis sr wasn’t seen as a star
@@rorye6952 he had a lot of injuries
That's how bullshit is war
@@leonzaduncan2438 If anything it shows the use of WAR, encompasses the whole player while comparing them to their peers at the time. It is way less useful when it comes to comparing across generations and instead is super useful when comparing how dominant a player is in their respective era. Babe Ruth has the highest WAR ever, is he better than Mike Trout facing today's pitchers? Probably not, but he is easily the most dominant player ever. Same can go for showing how much a player contributes to their team. Bo passing his dad for career WAR in his third season just shows that Bo is contributing more to his teams success overall than his father.
Dude this was an esoteric player choice for a great WAR discussion. Well played jolly.
I don't think you understand what esoteric means.
@@juliebraden6911 Something that is only understood by a small amount of people. Yes Dante Bichette is such a player and WAR as a topic is too.
@@juliebraden6911 esoteric - intended for or likely to be understood by only a small number of people with a specialized knowledge or interest.
Both Bichette's career and bWAR fit the description. Learn the language before you criticize how others use it. Moron.
This makes me think of Dave Kingman's 1982 season. Lead the league with 37 homeruns, but had a 99 OPS+.
That was the whole MLB in 2021...
@@sergiol652 Not true because Kingman slashline was .204/.285/.432 .717 ops. on 1982 those are Joey Gallo numbers with the Yankees.
"Kong" struck out a LOT. That particular year, he fanned 156 times, his career "high". I can't see what his RISP numbers are (I don't think they were commonly tracked at the time), or how many runners he failed to advance, but it's quite possible that Kingman, being the "outhouse or castle" hitter that he was, and fairly low on the Sac Fly count (but he did league the AL in '84 at Oakland) most of his career, I'd say he tended to fan in the clutch. Anyone remember his games to say "yeah" or "nay" on that?
Nothing wrong with clubbing home runs and driving in runners, but if the bulk of the production comes when there's a sizeable lead, either way, then it simply means that Kingman could crush fastballs when he got them to hit, but, otherwise, couldn't hit breaking pitches? A lot of guys can absolutely murder a fastball, but can't handle the breaking stuff, nor do they have sufficient plate discipline to either "work the count" or frustrate the pitcher into throwing something in their "wheelhouse". Baseball is very much a psychological game; and often it's a matter, between pitcher and batter, of whose will prevails.
1999 was the year the importance of defense was burned into my brain. Mainly because I went to many home games and heard our season ticket holder friend bust out her favorite line of the year -- "Dante, honey, the ball's over there." -- at least once a game on average.
It got burned into my brain during my high school JV season, our RF had 1 putout for the entire year. He could rake though.
the first MLB game I ever went to was at Coors in 1997 and Dante Bichette hit a monster homer to centerfield that is still burned in my memory. that homer is a huge reason I’m such a big baseball fan today. love me some Dante Bichette
Dante was a BEAST, for sure.
I love his little “hell yeah” he does with his hands. Such a quirky reaction to do.
13 errors as an outfielder…in a season…good lord…some outfielders do t have 13 errors in a career
Ryne Sandberg only had 13 errors once in his career as a middle infielder with a ton more opportunities for errors.
So when Bo Bichette has a two-RBI game but costs the Blue Jays three runs with his glove, does he tell his dad, "I learned it by watching you!!"
Well, average to poor SS is much more valuable than all-time bad LF.
@@alexisborden3191Yeah, Bo is a 20th percentile fielder with a 90th percentile bat as a SS, Dante is 1st percentile defender with a 60th percentile bat as a LF. Not exactly comparable
Rockies owners would sign him right now for vet minimum of it meant they’d lose more
Probably sign him to sizable contract and play him over Kris Bryant
You forgot to mention that one of the biggest WAR factors i position played. The reason Simmons was so high at WAR is because he played SS, while Dante played LF. It's not impressive to rake as a DH, 1b, or corner OF. But it is impressive as a CF, catcher, or middle infielder.
Likewise, great defense is more important at SS than it is at 1b.
The reason Mike trout has off the chart WAR stats every year is because he's the best offensive player in baseball WHILE PLAYING centerfield.
This exact situation has had me considering making a TH-cam channel for years just to talk about it. His career WAR is just absurd. Glad you made a video on it.
Gotta give the Olive thumbs up! Glad your still doing your own videos along with the SHEA STATION. Love you and Jerry
When Bichette hits a no doubter, he has a sweet bat celebration.
Jolly with a ton of Rockies content, but this is a really awesome look into WAR. What a crazy season he had
Something also funny despite Vladimir Guerrero Jrs crazy 2021 season he wasn’t even the best on his team by War it was Marcus semien
It's not really weird. Semien had a great year by any measure.
@@JD-jc8gp yup. One was 2nd in MVP voting and the other was 3rd. They were literally as close to each other in terms of performance caliber as you can get
I remember learning about fetal alcohol syndrome and the face associated with it in high school. This led me to realize Dante looked like FAS Gary Gaetti.
Never been able to unsee it since.
He looks like Leo Dicaprio FAS
I guess he had it too
So much fascinating history with the Rockies. Love it
This is more of an indictment on WAR, especially when it comes to multiple outliers/extremes like park factors, league environment, playing a weak defensive position, woo pre-statcast defensive metrics, and being a poor defensive outfielder. For him to have those offensive stats and still be truly -2 wins under a replacement player, he would have been so bad that he wouldn't have been the regular LF'r. He'd have been a pinch hitter or traded to an AL team to DH. There'd be articles of pitchers not wanting him to play when they're on the mound and likely articles about Rockies fans feeling the same way.
Coors in the 90s was insane. Steroid Era, lower fence in right, and no humidor. I'd hate to be a Rockies pitcher back then
Denny Neagle is that you? Or are you Mike Hampton?
No player benefitted more from the Colorado thin air in the 90's than Dante Bichette. Just look at his career home/road splits. He was a hall of famer at Coors and barely a league average hitter everywhere else.
those 90s rockies were something else man
feast or famine the whole time
It’s actually pretty obvious the MVP in ‘95 should have gone to Greg Maddux.
I was expecting Brad Hawpe on that -3.5 dWAR list
He was very close
I feel like this discussion on WAR is more relevant than ever with the current MVP race. It has been brought up more and more ever since Trout came on the scene as determining value. I think it is a great single stat for determining general value. That being said I don’t believe it should be used for comparing players within ~2 or so WAR as the stat still does have its shortcomings and for lack of a better word doesn’t value the intangibles.
Not sure if the media was already talking about a Coors effect in 1995, since that was the first season the Rockies played there, but I don't remember anyone talking about WAR before the mid-2000s. I feel like 2012, when Miggy won the Triple Crown, was the first time I heard about it specifically in an MVP debate.
Anyway, Greg Maddux in 1995: 19-2, 1.62 ERA, 260 ERA+, 2.26 FIP, .811 WHIP. He won his 4th straight Cy Young, but easily could have added MVP to that.
Funny that Dante's son is also a supremely talented hitter who has some key shortcomings in his game that keep him from being a truly elite player
What would you say those shortcomings are? Don’t know too much about Bo but I’ve liked what I’ve seen
@@marcusy.6372 The main things are very questionable defense at short and (so far in 2022) extremely poor plate discipline. I don't like his approach at the plate at all, but he's a skilled enough hitter to be good despite his approach.
@@michael-fw3vz worked well enough for him to be an all star last year. I still think it’s too early in the year to make broad statements about him, and he’s seriously heating up currently.
As for the defence, it worries me a bit but he was very good in the second half of last season. I expect him to pick it up and regain his form. The league has adjusted to him, so he needs to re-adjust to the league
@@mattcollett9370 Yeah his approach so far this year has been odd to see given how comparatively solid it was last year. He still chased out of the zone way more than I'd prefer but this year has been a different beast.
He's a great shortstop all things considered, he's just not the type of player I think will be terribly consistent throughout his career
@@michael-fw3vz even though he’s had a couple seasons in the bigs, he’s still only 24. Valid if you think he’ll be inconsistent throughout his career, but I don’t want to go that far yet especially since he’s been well above average far more than he’s been average
A man and team who would have benefited if there was a universal DH
I'm not happy that the DH was imposed upon the NL; I appreciate the subtleties of having the pitcher bat and calculating when to take him out if his bat's that bad. I can also appreciate pitchers that hit well like MadBum, or, some 30+ years ago, the "Caveman", Donn Robinson of the Pirates/Giants. I saw Caveman hit a few home runs, once a walk-off PINCH HITTING to win a game.
Conversely, one thing I do like about the DH is that it gives aging, bulky sluggers who have persistent knee troubles and can't field their position anyway a lease on life. The best example, IMO, was Frank Thomas, aka "Big Hurt". Having played a LONG time with the White Sox, where he could also DH and did, Thomas looked like he was washed up in 2006 when Oakland signed him for $3.1 M . That was a bit "spendy" for Billy Beane, but "Big Hurt' earned his pay very well, with 39 HRs and 114 RBIs, and Oakland not only won 93 games and the AL West, but, for the first time since 1990, won a post-season series (but would fall to Detroit, who was unbeatable that year, in the ALCS). Thomas signed for about $18M over the next two seasons with Toronto, and had decent numbers in 2007, but 2008 he tailed off, and was released, Oakland picked him up again, but "Hurt" was done.
Just imagine what Barry Bonds could have done for Tampa Bay in 2008, as he did nearly sign with them to DH, as they did win the AL pennant, but fell, 4-1, to Philadelphia, who had their own "bruiser", Ryan Howard. I give Howard credit for being loyal to the Phillies, but he's another than probably could have helped an AL team with his bat.
I found the nuance of pitcher batting overrated, i knew what the decision would be at least 98 percent of the time. And for all the MadBum talk, he only hit over .200 3 times.
Its funny. WAR wasnt exactly popular among voting media in the nineties.
He batted in over 100 and 35 homers.
An average replacement player will have enough defense to thwart a offensive juggernaut?
Something not right to me. Who can help me understand?
Great videos. Thanks for posting
Bichette is measured against other left fielders when calculating offensive WAR. While his numbers are good, there are a lot of power hitters patrolling left in MLB, which makes his numbers less impressive. If he was hitting like that at 2nd, it would be worth a lot more.
It's basically explained at 6:50. An average left fielder in 1999 who plays at coors field would bat an amazing .327/.395/.557 . So his offense was surprisingly not that of a juggernaut, but just 2% better than an average hitter for his position at the time and place (102 OPS+). It's the combination of being the steroid era, playing a position that isn't challenging defensively so has a lot of good hitters in that position, and playing half the games at coors field that makes his offense less impressive than it would appear at a glance.
@Macc Attacc Bill James discusses WAR in the early 1980s in the Historical Baseball Abstract. Baseball Prospectus was using a modern WAR as we'd know it -- VORP and then WARP -- in the early 1990s.
One thing to also understand is that WAR is VERY positional in nature. A shortstop who plays excellent defense and puts up a .280/.390/.480 slash, steals 18 bases without getting caught more than 3 or 4 times and plays a full season is going to have a much, much higher WAR than a first baseman or left fielder or right fielder who puts up similar offensive numbers.
So let's take 1995, the year Bichette lost the MVP to Barry Larkin. Larkin not only had an OPS of .886 while playing shortstop, he also stole 51 bases (caught just 5 times) and won a gold glove at shortstop (although modern stats suggest he may have been overrated defensively.) Add to that, the Reds won the NL Central that year (which for old school MVP voters carried a little weight) and there you go.
@@chrishornbostel9831 yeah, but nobody in the bigs cared about Bill James in the early 90's. That's why he played such a big role in moneyball at the end of the 90's
The guy had a rifle for an arm. I remember some eye popping throws when he first came up with the Angels.
His war is a lot lower than it should be because of park effect errors in the total zone system, probably from the sketchy batted ball data of the 90s. He is 23 runs worse at home than on the road according to war, so he wasn't really that bad in the field. Still not a good season, but the over-reliance on war makes it seems a lot worse than it is.
Did you watch the video?
@@juliebraden6911 why do you ask?
I love baseball and I never knew this guy was that good offensively.. I knew Big Cat, Walker and Helton but didn’t know this guy was up there with them..
And Vinny Castilla!
and Ellis Burks! @@17Helton
Go back and do a video on the 1995 season of Albert Belle Hit 50 home runs with 52 doubles and I guarantee you not very many people remember it
Or 1998 season…
.328avg 49HR 152RBI, also 48 doubles and 200 hits.
Didn’t make the All-Star team 🤯
Robbed of MVP in 95
Fascinating. Great work.
As someone who was growing up in this era and who was a fan of Mike Hampton when he played for the Astros, I do have to point out that Hampton, despite being a pitcher, was generally a good hitter (with the Astros, playing the notoriously hitter-unfriendly Astrodome, he had two seasons where batted over .300 with an OPS+ of above 100!) Dude could hit, despite being a pitcher (and a good one at that).
The extreme offensive environment of 1999-2000 +Coors can result in some pretty crazy offensive numbers
Wow I never knew that Bichette was that bad of a fielder....thanks for the info!
The idea that Bichette's defense cost the Rockies 5 wins is ludicrous. However, he clearly drew an extra 25000 fans (at least.) He is to the Rockies what Meatloaf is to Rock and Roll.
Wake up honey it's another Jolly Olive Rockies video
What they need to do is to start implementing The R stat (runs) if they want to better guage a position players overal stats . When OPS was a hot topic on espn and mlb network a while back i half way came up with a way to calculate Off productivity and Def productivity.
Off productivity is calculated by R (runs) added by what ever means batter got on base plus RBIs, if applicable, with each plate appearance...never figured out the magic dividing number but it would go something like this
1st Plate Appearance is 1R+1BB=2
2nd Plate Appearance is 1HR=(1H+2RBI+1R)=5
3rd Plate Appearance is 1RBI+1 triple=.5
4th plate appearance is 1R+1FC/OBBE=.5
5th appearance is 1R+1H=2
So his first appearance would give a value of 2 because he walked and in what ever form or fashion crossed the plate and scored. 2nd PA value is a 5 becauese a single hr automitcally gives you a value of 4 but if u hit a home run with runners on base u get an extra point (so a grand salami will give you a value of 7 i chose it this way because 1HR always brings up a player's value no matter the situation so why not) His 3rd PA gives him .5 since he did not manage to cross the plate but scored an rbi 4th appearance gives him .5 because FC/obbe (on base by error) only gives half a value (kinda goes hand in hand if you look at it like this. You got on base by error or a fc but you were able to score so that would count for something, and then on the other hand you hit a rbi triple with no outs but couldnt find a way to score? Half a point). 5th appearance u got on base wether it was a single double or triple and crossed home plate. So even if you hit a triple but did not or can't score you gets nothing.
Now you add all those values you divide it by a magic number and then youll get offensive production value. So its basically slg% and obp but for Rs and RBIs
Def production value would be put outs subtracted by your errors (0.5) and then subtracted by runs scored after your error (2)
For this assist is not included because def production leans more towards calculating an overal individual players stats and if i could make the rules i would honestly throw away assist all together because getting a thrown out is a 2 way street player must field ball and throw it while other fielder MUST catch ball 4, 5, and 6 deserves to get a put out as much as the fat 1st baseman does (i am that 1st baseman 🤣) especially an outfielder dislocating his elbow to save a run. So Def Prod is just basically adding all individual put outs and subtracting it by errors and runs scored after erros. Web gems and OF/catcher throwing runners out is 2 points added to put out value and robbing a hr, or all individuals that played a roll in stopping a run that could have been will get you 3 points to your put out value and then add those points and divide it by some magic number that i could never figure out. Take the Off production value and the def prod value and put those two together and either divide it or leave it alone and then you have a Position Player's overal production value.
This way we would have a better understanding of who actually produces runs and who isnt. who is causing the team runs due to having the jitters and who is causing errors because there was a 50 pitch AB with no outs and the fielder fell asleep on the play after pitch count 40.
Hopefully this is better on paper than trying to calculate a player base off of their location and an imaginary cooperstown caliber replacement guy
Been waiting for someone to do this one
I got a homerun ball he hit in San Diego back in 93. Sitting in my top drawer
Bo Bichette is amazing Dante Bichette was decent but not good enough, like his son who could make the hall of fame one day!
I see that the apple doesn't fall far from the tree with the amount of errors he makes.
WAY too early to be throwing that around
Bo will never be the hitter that Dante was, he's just supposedly not as bad in the field. But comparing a middle infielder to a corner outfielder is kinda difficult, if you stuck Bo in left or right field permanently he may well be just as bad.
Great analysis. However, 5:06, I think you meant "above negative 10." -5 is above -10. -15 is below -10. I think the point you were making was that -19 was his all time worst and those other seasons, while not great, were not even as bad as -10 ... they were slightly above that value. But, I really liked this video. Thanks.
My most common memory of Dante Bichette is him hitting into a double play to the left.
Boのバッティングがすごく好きなので見に来ました。やっぱり父親と良く似てますね！累計WARは息子が追い抜いていってほしい
Hey, great video. You should do a video on the 2005 ALCS White Sox pitching.
What I would want to know is the result of Bichette's errors, i.e., what happened afterward. Innings continued, runs scored as a result of the errors, etc.
Because without that, all his WAR numbers are just something some nerd put together to make an argument (or a video). His errors could have led to ten runs, or they could have led to one run. He could have lost 5 games, or his errors could have cost the Rockies no games. And any losses would have to be DIRECTLY attributable to Bichette's errors. Doable, but like the man said, the Rockies were horrible that year.
No one knew what the hell WAR was in 1999 (except maybe Bill James) and no one cared. You don't even need WAR to know Bichette was a great hitter and a terrible fielder. You could tell from the statistics people had already been using for a hundred years. Obviously, the Rockies manager and leadership were okay with the tradeoff of bad defense for good offense, probably because some errors are worse than others. That's something an advanced statistic doesn't take into account. An error is an error when it comes to WAR. But each error has a result. Most times it's an inning extended by one hitter who promptly makes an out and there's no damage. Sometimes it costs a run or a game. But that doesn't get put into the formula.
Bottom line: any manager would find room for Bichette on their team in 1999, even with the poor defense. He just didn't get the accolades or the hardware.
He got the money, though, so good on him.
Some other things that don’t get taken into account with war? Fielder range. Size of the field (particularly important in outfielders, particularly in a stadium like… idk… coors renowned for its MASSIVE outfield). Human error (as in the official scorer ruling a tough play an error instead of a hit). Logic. Common sense.
Was it Dusty Baker who said DB was the dumbest player he ever coached?
For the 2000 season Todd Helton lead the NL in hits, doubles, RBI's, average, OBP, OPS, Slugging, and rWAR. He was second in runs, fourth in walks, and seventh in home runs. He slashed .391/.484/.758 at Coors and .353/.441/.633 on the road. He played first base but went on to win the Gold Glove in 3 of the next 4 years. He finished FIFTH in MVP voting that year. FIFTH! Why? Coors. Larry Walker won the MVP in 1997 because he was already established as a great player before he went to Colorado. Helton played his entire career for the Rockies so voters always questioned the legitimacy of his production. He got robbed of the MVP in 2000 worse than anyone ever has except Ted Williams and maybe Mickey Mantle. He should be a slam dunk HoFer, too.
Defense will always be more of an eye test thing. Most defensive stats are really unreliable
I agree. Carlos Correa has a negative out above average the last 2 seasons, and I've seen him play every day. He's one of the best I've ever seen field a ball
No one else noticing that strange ass swing? And the weird, automatic bat flip. Did he do that when he struck out too?
@jollyolive a dive like this into Aaron Nola's 2018 would be enlightening - rWAR 9.7, fWAR 5.5 (FIP-based) and/or 7.7 (RA/9 based)
Dude led the league in Hits HRs, RBIs and Slg% in 1995 and still wasn't worth 2 wins above replacement. If that doesn't at least somewhat show the limitations of WAR and other analytics then nothing will. I get his defense was bad and he played at Coors, but he almost won the triple crown ffs
His son has out WARred him already. Though he's kinda bad at defense too.
Ah Dante, great slugger! Hope Bo lives up to or even passes dear old dad!
I thinks he's already passed him in WAR.
Already passed him lmao
@@bobobingus3155 I mean in terms of home runs and things.
@@eliotjurgensen1421war is a bad stat
It relies too much on defense
Another great case study like this would be 2017 albert pujols, who funny enough had more rbis than 2015 bryce harper
Great vid. Whats the diff btwn bwar and war
bwar is baseball-reference's version of it
The reason Larkin won that season even though his stats were far less than Bichettes is Affirmative action 🎬 😅
Bandbox is a small park not a hitter friendly park, Coors definetly isn't a bandbox. It is the most extreme outlier statidium in baseball though
Ah yes Dante, the only time I can say the “S” word in front of my parents. LMAO
I knew Coors Field inflated stats. But I didn't think his stats were so drastically different until I checked his home and away splits. His road numbers were nowhere close to what they were at home. And he was poor in the field.
This was fantastic Jolly!
They banning the SHIFT
I wanna see how great defense
it's gonna be
6:00 You don’t add (OBP/lgOBP)+(SLG/lgSLG), you add (OBP+SLG)/(lgOBP+lgSLG). The former (which is what you put in the video) would give an OPS+ of 200 for a perfectly average hitter. In general, (a+c)/(b+d) does not equal (a/b)+(c/d).
I don't think your information is correct. Baseball Reference agrees with how I portrayed it in the video.
Why are all my replies vanishing? I’ve responded to this message like three times already (four including this one).
Okay, so THAT one stayed. Go figure.
Lol you are actually right. (OBP/lgOBP)+(SLG/lgSLG) would indeed give an average player 200 OPS+ and is obviously wrong. Nice catch.
Just proves what I’ve been saying for the past 5/10 years since war became a thing. If you have to create algorithms to tell me why a player is good or bad, you’re literally just making shit up. War, wrc+ “defensive runs saved”, ops+. These are made up stats that mean absolutely nothing. I can make stuff up too. Did you know that Aaron judge is batting .000 in 2022, on the 6th Wednesday of any month? You do now… and that stat means exactly as much to me, and is exactly as significant as war…
I guess that's why Bo also sucks at SS.
Honestly, Larry Walker and Dante Bichette make for a pretty demonstration of WAR.
Larry Walker, 1995-1999: 163 HR, 471 RBI, 92 SB, .344 BA.
Dante Bichette, 1995-1999: 153 HR, 642 RBI, 70 SB, .318 BA
Going by just those, you might think they're pretty similar players. But WAR shows a very different story:
Larry Walker, 95-99: 26.6 WAR
Dante Bichette, 95-99: 0.8
What really dragged Bichette down was his, by then, putrid defense, as highlighted in the video. 1999 was the lowlight, but over that 5 year period, Dante accumulated -75 runs compared to the average player from his (lack of) defense. Larry, Meanwhile, accumulated +11, and that was probably the *worst* defensive stretch of Larry Walker's career. However, despite seemingly comparable SB numbers, Dante was once again much worse on the basepaths. Larry gave the Rockies +18 runs with his baserunning, while Dante gave them -14. Larry stole bases at an 81.5% success rate - well above the 75% rule of thumb rate. Dante, meanwhile, stole bases at a 66% success rate - well below the three quarters threshold.
Now, of course, the biggest difference comes in OBP. While Larry's BA is already better, his OBP blows Dante's away. Larry posts a .423 OBP in the period, while Dante posts a .355 OBP. Larry has an even bigger lead in SLG, beating Dante by 115 points there, .656 to .541. So we have two players who, on the surface, seem fairly similar, but one uses his team's outs efficiently, and the other does not. Outs are your resource as a baseball - spending them inefficiently is a recipe for losses.
I may miss it but does WAR affect as a DH?
Yes. Well, playing DH effects your WAR. Playing DH will you give the highest negative adjustment to the defence portion of WAR. The thought being that if a team plays you at DH then you must have no fielding utility.
Yes, the video didn't mention it, but positional adjustment is a huge factor. SS, C and CF will get big boosts.
Would MVP voters in the mid-90s really be looking at WAR when making thsir votes? Would that really be the main reason he missed it? From my memory of the time, a lot of voters would still have been going by the eye test at that point in time and their ideas about Coors.
You make an excellent point, one that I was going to make myself. Advanced metrics didn't really come to the forefront until about 2005 or 2006, maybe even a little later. The main reason Bichette didn't win the MVP in 1995 was because it was thought that Coors Field inflated his offensive numbers. If you look at his splits for that year it's basically true. On the road that year he hit .300, 9 HR, 45 RBI, & .473 SLG in 68 games, good numbers to be sure. However his home numbers that year were insane. He hit .378, 31 HR, 83 RBI, & .755 SLG in 71 games. Coors Field cost him the MVP that year not advanced metrics.
Coors field and his offensive numbers not really popping out too far beyond everyone else's during his time, yes.
I presume the point was that WAR as a lot of people consider it is a pretty brutal statistic for poor-average fielders who are pretty good hitters, sure, but during offensive booms whilst playing half your games at coors.
WAR was barely even developed yet so no.
Love the pairing with Matt Stairs in passing. Stairs would ditch the field by becoming one of the best pinch hitters in baseball history, Bichette just got to embarrass himself.
1:05 that bat drop is so damn cool.
his domestic abuse allegations from his son not named Bo are jarring, shame his slugging percentage was as high in his home as it was on the field
he would have made an amazing DH
Nah jolly, no one was looking at war or total zone, it was all eye test. If they were looking at war they wouldve flipped him to an AL team
@Lighthouse in the Storm no voter was deciding bichettes candidacy based on war or total zone in the 90s. While there are many fielders great at eye test with bad metrics and vice versa, there are also many who have both bad eye test and basic metrics and bad advanced metric fielding stats (and vice versa). Bichette was awful at both to the point the voters, deciding purely on fielding eye test, that he wasnt worthy of the award. Coors probably had something to do with it as well.
they definitely didn’t use war for mvp races in the 90s tho
Really well done and an amazing retort to anyone who favors the horrible DH ¨position¨
“Let this be a lesson to you all, if you ever manage a baseball team”
*cough cough Phillies*
Phillies defense has been middle of the pack this year, concerns were way overblown.
@@thomasmccollum5797 eh I guess it depends on what metric you use. They’re 24th in drs, which is pretty bad.
Very glad to see Bichette (specifically his 1995 season) get some shine on YT. One thing you should have made a point of straight up when addressing that years’ MVP race was just how close to winning the Triple Crown he got. He led in HR and RBI with 40 and 128, respectively AND HE BATTED .3friggin40. That is mental. It would have won a TC were it not for Mike Piazza batting .346 playing less than 120 games and Tony Gwynn having a .368 season with just 15 SO in 535 AB. I think WAR is a dumb stat because you need to look at it in so many different contexts to gleam any sort of value from it. It is overly complex and just masturbatory material for aspiring sabermetricians to ogle.
WAR isn't a stat. It's a combination of many different stats and it puts those stats into context. You have a fundamental misunderstanding of what it is used for
Amazing how ad-free all the pre-2000 clips are HFS
Much easier on the eyes. I miss those times.
Defense and pitching ..... 86 Mets , 63 Dodgers , 71 Pirates , 84 Tigers , 64 Cardinals, 70 Orioles , 76 Reds
I know this is irrelevant but I cant help but notice his swing and how Bo has basically the exact same swing just a little bit more polished and maybe more violent
Another banger by Jollie from Jomboy
To quote Edwin Starr - "War...huh...yeah
What is it good for?
Absolutely nothing
Uh ha haa ha
War...huh...yeah
What is it good for?
Absolutely nothing...say it again y'all
War..huh...look out...
What is it good for?
Absolutely nothing...listen to me ohhhhh"
I would love if you did a video on Bobby Grich.
It's crazy how the 1999 Reds had three of the top 11 players in the league in overall WAR yet failed to make the playoffs
Bc war means less than nothing
Did WAR exist back then? I think Barry Larkin won MVP in 1995 because 1) his team won the Central, 2) he was a shortstop, which held a lot of weight in the 90's, 3) Bichette wasn't the best player on his team,
Gallaraga was and he played at Coors.
Exactly all of those things. Larkin was an established star at the time.
If WAR is such an indicator why didn't Greg Maddux (9.2), Barry bonds (7.5), Reggie Sanders (6.6), Craig Biggio (6.3) or Mike Piazza (6.2) win it over Larkin with his 5.9?
This video wants to make it seem like WAR is a good evaluator but there are just too many variables. It is almost like a too many cook spoil the pot situation.
@@claytoncourtney1309 those guys didn't win because nobody knew what WAR even was back then. You're assuming that the voting totals tell the truth and that the WAR figures are misleading, instead of it being the other way around.
So basically he wouldve been better off as a DH in the AL
5:13 is this a pete alonso reference?
Can a terrible pitching staff skew park factors? Let's say, for argument's sake, that the '99 Rockies had the worst staff of that era. Or how about ever? Hitters tore them up all year, posting ridiculous numbers in Coors. Would that then punish Colorado's hitters, by skewing the park factor? And vice versa. What if they had a magnificent staff and hitters did nothing in Coors. Would that boost Rockies hitters via lowered park factor?
Jolly Olive fears the BOFA stat
WhAt’S bOfA?
Honestly ty for the baseball stat edgemmication I never knew what WAR was hahaha
I don't remember him having such a goofy stance and awkward swing. Can't believe he hit that well.
Terrible mechanics. Ha but he bashed
All arm strength
A season with an .896 ops translating to a 102 ops+ is absolutely bonkers
Coors field for you. Fun thing to play around with. Take any great hitter from the Rockies- Helton, Arenado, etc etc. They'll have an OPS of about 100 higher at home vs on the road. In any other park, the OPS always comes out practically even.
Ripping the glove off the second he cracks one is cold af