Each target for horse archery has only one hitbox plane. When the arrow hitbox "collides" with the plane, it calculates the distance from the center of the plane to determine score.
Cylindrical hitboxes can't be elongated because they're not actually polygonally modeled cylinders, even if they're displayed that way. A cylinder only has to be defined by a center point (often the center of the bottom face), a radius, and a height. Need to check if two cylinders overlap? Step 1: Check the y distance between their center bottom points. If cylinder A is above cylinder B, the distance needs to be less than the height of B. If B is above A, it needs to be less than the height of A. If one is entirely above the other, you know they can't intersect. Step 2: Check the distance between their center points in the (x, z) plane. If it's less than the radius of A + the radius of B, they intersect. That's all you need! Calculating the intersection of a circle and ellipse in the (x, z) plane adds a lot more math and adds an orientation variable to the mix. Don't forget that for every shape of hitbox implemented in the physics engine, you need a formula to check for collisions *between it and every other type.* Planes colliding with planes (shielding weapon attacks), planes colliding with cylinders (hitting hurtboxes with a weapon), and cylinders colliding with cylinders (everything else) seems to have been enough actor collision types to make Ocarina of Time happen, and I would guess that adding a couple lines of code to scoot a hitbox around on a straight line ended up being worth the savings of implementing rectangular prism hitboxes or burdening the physics engine with extra planes.
I also think it may have seemed more "accurate" in its own way. If they'd used two cylinders on the guillotine and fire walls, then there would likely be a point between them where they were less likely to hit you. If one cylinder follows you though, then the effective range it can hit you is actually closer to a box, albeit with rounded ends. So why do box collision when a cylinder can cover the same range?
The reason why the guillotine and the firewall are cylinders is probably because so that they always push you back in the direction Link came from. The plane hitboxes have no easy way of telling where Link is in relation to them, so they using them only when it's supposed to hurt without pushback. Also multiple hitboxes would mean that they don't always push you back in the same direction, depending on how Link is approaching them, but a following one ensures that he will always only get pushed back in one direction.
@@Kzar5678 I don't know if this is how hitboxes actually work in OoT, I'm just going off of what OP is suggesting. If you turned the cylinder sidesways, then getting hit by them while you're below them would throw you downward instead of away from the blade. Plus, I'm not even sure if the collision algorithm they used for OoT would allow for arbitrary rotation for the cylinders.
@@Kzar5678 The math for calculating collisions between 2 cylinders oriented the same direction is really, really simple. Adding any sort of sideways angle makes it a lot more complex, and it seems like OoT only has vertical cylindrical collision for that reason.
I can explain the cylinders thing. Since it perfectly mirrors Link's coordinate movements, when he collides with the active hitbox he's always sent at a 90 degree angle from the wall or guillotine. It makes it so he doesn't get pushed back at a weird angle, and it's easy to program a cylinder like that since it is fixed on two axis and directly takes Link's input for the last axis.
Here's my theory on the guillotine hitbox things; So they probably didn't want to have multiple cylinders because then there would be some variance with how close you could get to the blade without getting hurt. Furthermore, they might not want to do a plane because then it would be harder for it to hit you and then it would seem unthreatening. Therefore, they did this solution where there's one cylinder that moves along the blade depending on where you are. This has the intended side effect that it has more thickness than a plane, and also the distance you can get to the blade is almost completely constant.
Do the cylinders not actually look better than the game itself? Kind of makes it look like a stylized modern indy game, I'm actually surprised that the 64 could generate visuals this good
Since the follow is delayed by one frame there is a 0.5 frame immunity where you get hit by the firewall but can still run through it with no damage. Same for the Guillotine etc. this has been used by 1-2 speedruns yet mainly by incident as it’s not rly timetable
Seems like it'd be way less code and way less hitboxes to load (in Shadow Temple with its complex geometry and moving traps/set pieces) to have 1 hitbox load in relation to Link, especially since it only happens with traps that are on a flat plane, rather than potentially a dozen or more (especially in the Fire Temple flame maze).
Hook shot through rocks is an exploit, not a glitch. The devs intentionally unloaded the hit box at range and all mechanics are functioning as they should.
I'm guessing that collision that prevents you from passing through has to be cylindrical. It makes it much easier to calculate which direction to push you out.
Considering hookshot extension works for that one and hookshot extension is allowed in glitchless, probably not very useful. I dunno where else this could be useful though. The hammer boulder chest though is great for rando lmao
I'm watching this thru VLC media player so that I can increase the brightness. I have to do this because my old monitor broke, and so until I can get a new one, I'm currently on a real old CRT monitor.
I would allow the boulder hookshot trick in glitchless. The game is working as intended for all parts of the trick; the developer just didn't account for certain interactions. The boulder hitboxes are supposed to unload at long distances; the developers just didn't account for the player having any items that would do anything special around the boulders at that distance. It's like wavedashing in Melee: you are meant to be able to air dodge, and air dodging into the ground is supposed to preserve your momentum. The developers just didn't account for it to be as useful as it was. On the contrary, if players somehow figured out how to prevent the boulder hitbox from unloading at long distances, that would be considered a glitch. The boulder hitboxes were designed to unload, and preventing them from doing so would be taking advantage of a glitch.
what emulator has been used here? i wanna create my own games one day, and using this would really help me with stuff looks fun, too, thanks ZFG and Dry
maybe making the hitbox follow link is more efficient since there are less hitboxes present at the same time? it might also help with preventing random clips
I imagine they used cylinders that follow you because of hardware limitations. It requires less memory to render 1 hitbox rather than 2 or 3. Less hitboxes means less computations need to be made every frame to update their positions and check for collisions, which gets really expensive.
There was 1 square, they are probably using an algorithm to see where it hits. As for rock, they are either detecting to see if thr bomb is in the rocks hitbox, or if the rocks center is within thr explosions. They arent always checking to see if 2 hitboxes touch. As for sun, they are using simple but intelligent math, doesnt take too much effort. Unless youre shit at math.
I don't think that's how the bombs work... see how the cylinder expands? That's a series of incrementally larger cylinders, so what if it's just the tiny little first cylinder that actually affects rocks? So the rocks are vulnerable to the first frame of a bomb's explosion, but not the rest of the active frames.
Wouldn't it be like way less taxing on the N64 processor to replace at least some of those polygonal cones with just boxes? Would probably help the frame rate just a little bit
Tuxfanturnip said this about the cylinders, should explain everything. "Cylindrical hitboxes can't be elongated because they're not actually polygonally modeled cylinders, even if they're displayed that way. A cylinder only has to be defined by a center point (often the center of the bottom face), a radius, and a height. Need to check if two cylinders overlap? Step 1: Check the y distance between their center bottom points. If cylinder A is above cylinder B, the distance needs to be less than the height of B. If B is above A, it needs to be less than the height of A. If one is entirely above the other, you know they can't intersect. Step 2: Check the distance between their center points in the (x, z) plane. If it's less than the radius of A + the radius of B, they intersect. That's all you need! Calculating the intersection of a circle and ellipse in the (x, z) plane adds a lot more math and adds an orientation variable to the mix. Don't forget that for every shape of hitbox implemented in the physics engine, you need a formula to check for collisions between it and every other type. Planes colliding with planes (shielding weapon attacks), planes colliding with cylinders (hitting hurtboxes with a weapon), and cylinders colliding with cylinders (everything else) seems to have been enough actor collision types to make Ocarina of Time happen, and I would guess that adding a couple lines of code to scoot a hitbox around on a straight line ended up being worth the savings of implementing rectangular prism hitboxes or burdening the physics engine with extra planes."
Yeah when he messed with this before (I think it was when he spawned Volvagia in Morpha's boss room) I was wondering why there were two Volvagias. This actually makes a lot of sense from a technical standpoint
Why would you ban that in glitchless? Its and explot not a bug, it was programmed and designed that way. Kind of ironic seeing as if you used a bombchu from afar to try to hit it you would think it a bug. However being that its every Boulder normal or hammer boulder. It seems intentionally designed that way. Its also not the only hitbox type/category that disappeared in a distance.
“I always felt like the range for opening that hole was massive”
-ZFG 2019
Each target for horse archery has only one hitbox plane. When the arrow hitbox "collides" with the plane, it calculates the distance from the center of the plane to determine score.
Cylindrical hitboxes can't be elongated because they're not actually polygonally modeled cylinders, even if they're displayed that way. A cylinder only has to be defined by a center point (often the center of the bottom face), a radius, and a height. Need to check if two cylinders overlap?
Step 1: Check the y distance between their center bottom points. If cylinder A is above cylinder B, the distance needs to be less than the height of B. If B is above A, it needs to be less than the height of A. If one is entirely above the other, you know they can't intersect.
Step 2: Check the distance between their center points in the (x, z) plane. If it's less than the radius of A + the radius of B, they intersect.
That's all you need! Calculating the intersection of a circle and ellipse in the (x, z) plane adds a lot more math and adds an orientation variable to the mix. Don't forget that for every shape of hitbox implemented in the physics engine, you need a formula to check for collisions *between it and every other type.* Planes colliding with planes (shielding weapon attacks), planes colliding with cylinders (hitting hurtboxes with a weapon), and cylinders colliding with cylinders (everything else) seems to have been enough actor collision types to make Ocarina of Time happen, and I would guess that adding a couple lines of code to scoot a hitbox around on a straight line ended up being worth the savings of implementing rectangular prism hitboxes or burdening the physics engine with extra planes.
Excellent insight, thanks for sharing!
I also think it may have seemed more "accurate" in its own way. If they'd used two cylinders on the guillotine and fire walls, then there would likely be a point between them where they were less likely to hit you. If one cylinder follows you though, then the effective range it can hit you is actually closer to a box, albeit with rounded ends. So why do box collision when a cylinder can cover the same range?
dude shut the fuck up stop being smart
The missile knows where it is because it knows where it isnt
@@SavvygeMediaGroup But first, we need to talk about parallel universes.
The reason why the guillotine and the firewall are cylinders is probably because so that they always push you back in the direction Link came from.
The plane hitboxes have no easy way of telling where Link is in relation to them, so they using them only when it's supposed to hurt without pushback.
Also multiple hitboxes would mean that they don't always push you back in the same direction, depending on how Link is approaching them, but a following one ensures that he will always only get pushed back in one direction.
Damn came to say this. Also probably to avoid you moving through them, since they're solid, unlike the blades that pass through you
Plus you can't just stretch cylinders out to the sides without making the collision detection algorithm way, way more complicated
Could you not rotate the cylinder 90 degrees on its side to cover the whole blade?
@@Kzar5678 I don't know if this is how hitboxes actually work in OoT, I'm just going off of what OP is suggesting. If you turned the cylinder sidesways, then getting hit by them while you're below them would throw you downward instead of away from the blade. Plus, I'm not even sure if the collision algorithm they used for OoT would allow for arbitrary rotation for the cylinders.
@@Kzar5678 The math for calculating collisions between 2 cylinders oriented the same direction is really, really simple. Adding any sort of sideways angle makes it a lot more complex, and it seems like OoT only has vertical cylindrical collision for that reason.
Seriously, this deserves its own series. Like Boundary Break or Son of a Glitch. This is so interesting.
I can explain the cylinders thing. Since it perfectly mirrors Link's coordinate movements, when he collides with the active hitbox he's always sent at a 90 degree angle from the wall or guillotine. It makes it so he doesn't get pushed back at a weird angle, and it's easy to program a cylinder like that since it is fixed on two axis and directly takes Link's input for the last axis.
I love that even after 20 damn years, there's still new things to find.
I would love to see a 100% or nsr run done with just cylinders lul
Count on it at AGDQ 2020.
I have a very particular set of skills.
I really like the hit box stuff, it really breaks my childhood and shows me just how big stuff actually was
Dude that hit box thing with the rocks is actually helpful. Some randos I don’t get the hammer and I always want to check that chest
Show feet hitbox
then post on wikifeet
Legend of Geometry: Cylinders of Time
I got this game new for my birthday after launch. The hitbox for the boulders thing has me speechless, like jaw on the floor.
Here's my theory on the guillotine hitbox things; So they probably didn't want to have multiple cylinders because then there would be some variance with how close you could get to the blade without getting hurt. Furthermore, they might not want to do a plane because then it would be harder for it to hit you and then it would seem unthreatening. Therefore, they did this solution where there's one cylinder that moves along the blade depending on where you are. This has the intended side effect that it has more thickness than a plane, and also the distance you can get to the blade is almost completely constant.
Another comment said that it was so you weren't knocked back at a weird angle.
Do the cylinders not actually look better than the game itself?
Kind of makes it look like a stylized modern indy game, I'm actually surprised that the 64 could generate visuals this good
cylinder% when?
Since the follow is delayed by one frame there is a 0.5 frame immunity where you get hit by the firewall but can still run through it with no damage. Same for the Guillotine etc. this has been used by 1-2 speedruns yet mainly by incident as it’s not rly timetable
That's one hell of a thumbnail, good job Dry
Bongo is so fucking badass. You can tell they had so much fun making that.
Its really interesting how they made the logic for this game. Its kinda awesome.
Seems like it'd be way less code and way less hitboxes to load (in Shadow Temple with its complex geometry and moving traps/set pieces) to have 1 hitbox load in relation to Link, especially since it only happens with traps that are on a flat plane, rather than potentially a dozen or more (especially in the Fire Temple flame maze).
Hook shot through rocks is an exploit, not a glitch. The devs intentionally unloaded the hit box at range and all mechanics are functioning as they should.
i want more of these. so interesting!
This video really banged on all cylinders
Dude I need to see a mod like this for dark souls. I want to see how from software models hitboxes
That would be really interesting to go through the DS series looking at the hit boxes and trigger zones.
TOP 10 THINGS ONLY SPEEDRUNNERS NAMED ZFG1 WILL UNDERSTAND
The Legend of Cylinda
Hitbox of Time
Very educational and informative
*Confirmed* longshot breaks the game!
I'm guessing that collision that prevents you from passing through has to be cylindrical. It makes it much easier to calculate which direction to push you out.
cylinders% when?
This hitbox viewer is so interesting. So many questions can be answered, but so many more come up. This is what I love about the speedrun community.
Well, but is the "Hookshot through rocks" thing good? i mean, is it faster to get the skulltula that way?
Considering hookshot extension works for that one and hookshot extension is allowed in glitchless, probably not very useful. I dunno where else this could be useful though. The hammer boulder chest though is great for rando lmao
This was enlightening.
ZFG NSR 100% Cylinder Run FTW
I'm watching this thru VLC media player so that I can increase the brightness. I have to do this because my old monitor broke, and so until I can get a new one, I'm currently on a real old CRT monitor.
Authentic ZFG experience!
Nostalgia makes the CRT look great for old games, but the contrast sucks. lol
The rock had probably a blue sword bounce hitbox. The hitbox for blowing it up is probably right in the middle of it.
I would allow the boulder hookshot trick in glitchless. The game is working as intended for all parts of the trick; the developer just didn't account for certain interactions. The boulder hitboxes are supposed to unload at long distances; the developers just didn't account for the player having any items that would do anything special around the boulders at that distance.
It's like wavedashing in Melee: you are meant to be able to air dodge, and air dodging into the ground is supposed to preserve your momentum. The developers just didn't account for it to be as useful as it was.
On the contrary, if players somehow figured out how to prevent the boulder hitbox from unloading at long distances, that would be considered a glitch. The boulder hitboxes were designed to unload, and preventing them from doing so would be taking advantage of a glitch.
The legend of Cylinder: Cylinder of time lololol
Wish I could see you live on twitch. You’re so awesome
The hook shot hitbox also seems to come from the visible hook shot instead of the center of the screen.
what emulator has been used here? i wanna create my own games one day, and using this would really help me with stuff
looks fun, too, thanks ZFG and Dry
maybe making the hitbox follow link is more efficient since there are less hitboxes present at the same time? it might also help with preventing random clips
I imagine they used cylinders that follow you because of hardware limitations. It requires less memory to render 1 hitbox rather than 2 or 3. Less hitboxes means less computations need to be made every frame to update their positions and check for collisions, which gets really expensive.
I actually found this highly interesting
this is so damn cool
Game designers: so this model here is used for X reason.
Me: Hehehehehe exploding cylinders.
7:28 Literally Lanmola.
There was 1 square, they are probably using an algorithm to see where it hits. As for rock, they are either detecting to see if thr bomb is in the rocks hitbox, or if the rocks center is within thr explosions.
They arent always checking to see if 2 hitboxes touch.
As for sun, they are using simple but intelligent math, doesnt take too much effort. Unless youre shit at math.
I don't think that's how the bombs work... see how the cylinder expands? That's a series of incrementally larger cylinders, so what if it's just the tiny little first cylinder that actually affects rocks? So the rocks are vulnerable to the first frame of a bomb's explosion, but not the rest of the active frames.
minimalist oot.
my life is a lie. everything is a cylinder PepeHands
Commenting on every video until zfg runs tp (day 66)
8:40 The game is called "Crossing Cups."
Wouldn't it be like way less taxing on the N64 processor to replace at least some of those polygonal cones with just boxes? Would probably help the frame rate just a little bit
Tuxfanturnip said this about the cylinders, should explain everything.
"Cylindrical hitboxes can't be elongated because they're not actually polygonally modeled cylinders, even if they're displayed that way. A cylinder only has to be defined by a center point (often the center of the bottom face), a radius, and a height. Need to check if two cylinders overlap?
Step 1: Check the y distance between their center bottom points. If cylinder A is above cylinder B, the distance needs to be less than the height of B. If B is above A, it needs to be less than the height of A. If one is entirely above the other, you know they can't intersect.
Step 2: Check the distance between their center points in the (x, z) plane. If it's less than the radius of A + the radius of B, they intersect.
That's all you need! Calculating the intersection of a circle and ellipse in the (x, z) plane adds a lot more math and adds an orientation variable to the mix. Don't forget that for every shape of hitbox implemented in the physics engine, you need a formula to check for collisions between it and every other type. Planes colliding with planes (shielding weapon attacks), planes colliding with cylinders (hitting hurtboxes with a weapon), and cylinders colliding with cylinders (everything else) seems to have been enough actor collision types to make Ocarina of Time happen, and I would guess that adding a couple lines of code to scoot a hitbox around on a straight line ended up being worth the savings of implementing rectangular prism hitboxes or burdening the physics engine with extra planes."
i will never understand the fascination with zfg's feet.
Hitbox + wireframe 100% when?
7:30 stressed pepe starting here
Can you explain to me why some hitboxes are blue and some of them are red?
Red hitboxes hurt, blue ones don't.
So this is what happens when you use the Lens of Truth on the game itself.
This is your best title yet.
I don’t know man, “What - ZFG Stream Highlights” is definetely up there
@@thinkon2127 Wacky 100% Routing is also strong
DO ONE HITBOX RUN. PLEASE.
15:07 works on 3ds too
No guards hitboxes yet? Sad...
Kinda curious to see that there were two Volvagias instead of just one.
one is flying around, the other one is sitting in the pools where you can hammer her. maybe nintendo couldn't give one volvagia both behaviors.
Yeah when he messed with this before (I think it was when he spawned Volvagia in Morpha's boss room) I was wondering why there were two Volvagias. This actually makes a lot of sense from a technical standpoint
Cylinder% when?
so cool
Where's Rem_?
I wanted to see the ISG hitbox.
Bell hitbox when
Please do a run of No texture%
this is how you view oot if you've never played dont want to see spoilers but want gameplay anyway
Why would you ban that in glitchless? Its and explot not a bug, it was programmed and designed that way. Kind of ironic seeing as if you used a bombchu from afar to try to hit it you would think it a bug. However being that its every Boulder normal or hammer boulder. It seems intentionally designed that way.
Its also not the only hitbox type/category that disappeared in a distance.
Praise Rem_
Do a speedrun called Texturless%
ZFG you know how awkward i feel with my roomate just hearing a video of a man saying ITS SO LONG and ITS SO BIG..... weird man
would it be more or less awkward if you explained he was talking about hitboxes on a 20+ year old game?
Is this Rez? 3:36
I need to see asschest but only as hitboxes.
*S Q U A R E S*
Link’s peen hitbox ?
you should collab with callmecarson or jshlatt sometime
Zfg AYAYAYAY
play the game with just hitboxes
Ofc they made the sun hitbox that good, these japanese people even have the sun on their flag after all :p
haha good point bro, have u ever seen 12 bugs at once gnats dont count
bruh
14:41
That's what she said.
they just used a minecraft target block for the horse shooting minigame
Different developers set up the hitboxes for different objects. There's your (possible) answer.
First
This is how any real gamer should see any game, if you're truly trying to be good. Especially fighting games.
The abbreviation for The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time is
LZ:OT
Show feet!
Show Banjo's hitbox