Thanks for starting the conversation Johanna! It certainly is an interesting experience discussing primarily epic fantasy and sci fi, especially when discussing the way certain things land from a female reader perspective. I’m very thankful though to have the space to do that and friends like you to discuss it with! Wonderful video ❤
Books CAN have specific target audiences but they aren't limited to them. Anyone should be able to read, discuss and enjoy any book they want even if they are not the target audience.
For me, representation will always play second fiddle to the quality of the work. Also, I would like to point out that when you felt left out reading the Malazan book, we're not always supposed to be included. Sometimes you're on the outside looking in. I could take your same complaint and substitute a queer friendly book in for the Malazan book. Imagine if you're a straight person complaining about not feeling included in a queer book. You're not supposed to feel included all the time. Not everything is written to make everyone comfortable. You're supposed to be able to experience other perspectives in your reading. When Nabakov wrote Lolita, he wasn't doing it for an audience of pedophiles. He wrote from the perspective of a monster so that the reader can put themselves in an uncomfortable place and experience the perspective of a terrible human being. The more perspectives you're reading from, the more you will learn about people who are not like you, and that's wonderful reading experience.
I love this point! I'm glad the Malazan book resonated so deeply with many of my male friends. From that standpoint, it did what it was supposed to do!
As a dude who was raised by a mother who is a hardcore science fiction fan, I find the whole stereotype that women want light, breezy books, while men like darker books with complex themes just head-scratching to me. I was reading Ursula K LeGuin, Octavia Butler, Sherri S. Tepper, and Julian May by the time I was a tween, simply because my parents were completely okay with me picking anything up off their shelves that piqued my interest. When I think back to my reading during that time period, I think the female authors as a whole were more thematically rich, with observations on race, gender, and society woven through their books. In contrast, the male authors I read back then in speculative fiction were often more purely escapist in nature, with the "sense of wonder" within the stories holding much of the appeal. Thinking about the example of Bakker in particular (who I love, but I think the title of "world's most brilliant edgelord" is accurate) I am wondering why it is that nihilism and "edgy" themes in general are more appealing to a male target audience. Could some of it have to do with the gender hierarchy in our culture? Could some men, understanding that they should feel happy with their lot, but feeling miserable regardless, be searching for a (lack of) meaning, while women have to deal with "grimdark light" every day (maybe worse depending upon the culture/context) and thus want an escape, rather than reinforcement?
Men do like darker books and women DO like lighter novels. You can look at the book sales and clearly see what genres and what tropes sell to what gender. Being an exception to the rule doesnt make you the rule. It also doesnt mean that men cannot enjoy female targeted media (barbie, the notebook, musicals for example) There is no law saying men are barred from watching them, but neither should there be a rule compelling men to watch them either.
Sounds like you had wonderful parents and an excellent selection of books available to you! It's interesting to speculate what identity or generational factors affect the types of fiction people are drawn to. I have tremendous respect for that older generation of authors, like Butler and Le Guin, who did not flinch from hard themes in SFF.
Great video Johanna! When I read fiction I'm not going to kie, I tend to gravitate towards dude-bro books, but outside a handful of male booktubers, I mostly watch female booktubers that are covering those kinds of books. I think women's voices analyzing and critiquing these kinds of works is very informative and valuable, as there are ideas and concepts that slip past me or are normalized without thought because of my postionality, and a woman's perspective helps me reoreintate how I think about the themes in the work. You have one of my favorite booktube channels and I hope you always feel welcome and valued in discussing your thoughts and critiques on these types of stories.
Thank you, Andrew! Completely understandable to gravitate to those types of books and discussions. It means a lot to me that you find value in my channel!
You handled this topic beautifully and honestly here, Johanna - much appreciated. As a fellow fan of epic fantasy, I value perspectives from people with backgrounds different from mine because I feel I have so much to learn from them. That is just one reason I’m so glad I know you!
You have no idea how much your kindness and respect have meant to me (and I'm sure to many others) regarding this topic on BookTube! I've been thinking about that a lot over the last few months. Thank you, Philip!
Great video Johanna! I agree with you that it's perfectly fine for books to have a targeted audience. The more important issue is that the industry continues to include a wider variety of authors in epic fantasy and sci-fi. I want to believe this is already happening, but I don't have any statistics or proof to support that. The more voices that enter the space, the better. This topic is interesting because, in my experience, reading seems to be more female-dominated outside of Booktube. I have maybe two male friends outside of BookTube who read. Whenever I mention reading to my male friends, they look at me like I'm crazy and say they haven't read a book since high school. In contrast, most of my female friends read at least a few books a year, if not more. I wonder if Booktube in general just has a higher male audience because TH-cam does in general? I'm not sure that's actually true but its a theory. And your voice does matter! Getting to hear about books from multiple different perspectives is what makes Booktube so awesome! Once again this is an awesome video!
Thank you, Tom! I've read that statistically more females read than males, so I can understand how you see that reflected in your real life. There are places where female BookTubers are the majority, but those are places less focused on adult sci-fi and epic fantasy. Speaking to your point, it would be interesting to learn the gender breakdown of book viewers on TikTok or Istagram vs. TH-cam. Cheers to everything you said about different perspectives!
First off, as someone who grew up on a lot of female authors in Sci-Fi and Fantasy (Tanith Lee, C.L. Moore, C.J. Cherryh, Marion Zimmer-Bradley, Ursula K. LeGuin, Anne Rice and others) as well as historical novels (Gillian Bradshaw, Diana L. Paxson), it was very surprising to me to later learn about those genres being thought of as male-dominated. And I'm here because I like the knowledgeable, informative way you talk about books, and would never even had the idea to ignore your perspective based on you being a woman. As far as the question of the video goes, I'd say yes it is. Though I think that sometimes, there's too much importance put on these things, everyone puts labels on everything and that can lead to wrong impressions about who the target group of a novel is, and worst case, make people miss out on books they might have actually enjoyed otherwise. Case in point, there might be books out there, that I would have enjoyed reading but that were labeled as romantasy (which is an immediate no-go for me) when in fact they just were good stories with a bit of romance in it. But then again, there's tons of great books out there written by a diverse cast of authors, lots of them female, lots of them PoC, lots of them members of the LGBTQ+ community, so I kinda think that I actually don't miss out on anything important just by not reading that particular genre.
That's awesome that you grew up reading from so many awesome female SFF authors! I can see how that shaped your experience in a positive way. Some of those names don't get mentioned enough and I'm sure there are plenty more like that. You’re right that there is a lot of emphasis on labels. Thank you for watching and sharing!
its interesting what you said about toll the hounds being focused on male grief because i didnt necessarily feel that way when i read it, but now that im thinking about it I see what you mean! I think with malazan specifically even the female characters seem very distant from my life, so all of the povs feel like stepping into anothers shoes. additionally, i do feel sometimes nervous to share what i read with other women because i feel like some of my favorites, like asoiaf and malazan, are not appealing to women. theres also this weird anxiety from social media that we should all read more books by women, which isnt a bad thing at all! but it can kind of make you feel ashamed if your top 3 or 5 are all by men
Thanks for validating my feelings about Toll the Hounds! I know many female fans love it, but I felt so distanced as a female reader in that particular book. Oddly, I didn't feel that way when reading Pet Sematary, which explored grief from a male protagonist. You never know where someone's opinion will land on a series, but as a female reader, I have no hesitation recommending ASOIAF (since you mentioned it) to any adult fantasy reader.
I love this conversation! I can imagine that it would feel similar for a man to enter the romance side of booktube. I read both traditionally feminine and traditionally masculine books and I find it interesting that readers tend to focus on WHAT is done rather than HOW it is handled and what PURPOSE it holds in the wider plot (in both feminine and masculine books). I love that you addressed some of that in this video!
You know what's funny, I always felt almost the opposite. I'm a guy, but most of my followers were women. It can feel isolating sometimes, but the diversity is more important and makes things better :)
Such an interesting topic - I know you know Laura and I touched on this last night on her channel, and this video I actually thought about when it came up, and it reminded me to come back and finish watching. Thanks for this!
Thank you, my friend! I got so happy when you said you're opening your mind to stuff like Romantasy. I personally LOVE seeing people read outside their expected genres. :)
Ooh great conversation! I think we need to further dissect what makes a book masculine. Is it the presence of violence? Action focused vs emotions focused? Male POVS vs female POVs? Treatment of women in the book? Gender of the author? Lack of romance? Even cover art to me is incredibly masculine vs feminine to set the tone (which is why I always avoided Stormlight Archive). Booktube overall seems to be largely female - but you’re right in the epic fantasy space is mostly male creators. My audience is 68% female viewers but that makes sense because I’m not sure if men like lifestyle vlogs as much and romantasy LOL
Excellent questions! Some female authors in adult fantasy focus on male characters, masculine cover art, and disturbing battle scenes. When they don't check certain boxes, they often run the risk of audiences calling it YA. I agree that most of BookTube---regarding other genres--is mostly female-focused. For some reason, I read in the one niche that works against me. 😅
Great Vid Johanna. I think most of BookTube creators are female, or at least most of the Booktubers I follow are women. (Shout out to Petrik!) But the women I follow aren't really ACOTAR/Romantasy fans, but "traditional" Fantasy/Sci Fiction fans. All of them sort of fit into the "cool girl" trope/concept from Girl Gone. YT recently recommended some more "traditional female" fantasy channels - and it's like stepping into an alternate dimesion. For the most part, they're reading a whole different branch of fantasy (the best seller/lucrative kind, less of the Hugo/Locus/WFA type). It's rare for them to covers books that you cover. That said, that side of Fantasy is more than willing to entertain "trash" (their words, not mine) than "this side" of fantasy is. And glad to hear your take on Bakker. I found the first trilogy a very hard read, specifically because of the treatment of women. It's illustrative that Bakker was doing that to get under my skin...as opposed to appeal to the "murder hobos"/'edgelord"/"Grim Dorks". If the prose wasn't so good, I would have basically DNF"d after Serwe gets introduced. The 2nd trilogy (i'm currently reading) also has a few characters and scenes that are also tough reads. I often wonder if the typical Bakker fan doesn't notice, doesn't care. Glad you're here on BookTube reading the books you read and I tend to read. You always have thoughtful and insightful views on the genre.
Solid video and an excellent topic of discussion. I'm aware that being a cishet white male gives me a certain perspective on things which is one of the reasons I like books from different perspectives. I've read a lot of the "classic" sci-fi/fantasy books by old white men, but I make it a point to seek out books from people with a different background. Reading is a chance to see a world through someone else's eyes and these different perspectives. If a book is written with an audience in mind that I don't fit in to, I'm even more excited to read it. I want to be challenged. I want to expand my world. One of the most formative books in my youth was The Mists of Avalon by Marion Zimmer Bradley. I was only 11 or 12 when I read it, but it blew my mind. This was the first "adult" book I had read with female protagonists. Putting aside MZB's, ah...issues (which I didn't even know about at the time), this book gave me complicated female characters and I loved it. Yes, I read books to entertain myself, but I also read them to learn, to grow, to challenge my world views.
It's amazing how many incredible female SFF writers there've been who haven't gotten as much of a spotlight as male ones. It's great that you're going out of your way to seek other voices. Thanks!
Interesting to hear these thoughts. I can't remember how I discovered your channel but it might have been when searching for R. Scott Bakker analysis. I never gave much thought to target audiences but certainly valued having a female perspective with Second Apocalypse for some of the reasons you mentioned here. Most of all I just really enjoy your perspectives on reading in general along with the handful of other Booktubers who I watch on the regular - many being friends of yours it seems. Like any art form some writing will appeal more to one gender than the other and that seems fine to me, though overly-testosterone driven anything tends to annoy me. Anyway I hope you continue feel comfortable in this space and continue enjoying challenging reads.
Thank you so much for your support! I've only heard word-of-mouth that Bakker had a male reader in mind, so that might not be factual. I also heard that after I started the series. Either way, the Second Apocalypse has been one of my most incredible reading experiences. Bakker's prose, character psychology, metaphysics, approach to theme, and immersive world building is top-tier!
Great vid, Johanna! My most popular video on my channel is my top 10 books video, and on that video I took A LOT of heat from female viewers because of the lack of female authors on that list (seriously, judging by the comments on that video, you'd think I was Andrew Tate). Many people accused me of not reading any female authors. In fact, some of my favourite authors include Atwood, Le Guin and Didion... Hell, even some of my favourite FANTASY is written by women: Fonda Lee, Jemisin, Le Guin again. It just so happens that when I made a list of my favourite books of all time, those specific books were written by men. Given that I'm a man, that there are specific genres I read in more (which happen to skew towards male authors), that there are certain themes that appeal to me more, and that I like being able to relate to the characters, I don't think it should be particularly surprising that my favourite books would skew towards books written by men, or books that are probably targeted to a male audience. And I honestly don't see why that's a big deal. That's just my taste. It's completely possible for me to prefer "male" fiction, but also for me to name Wild by Cheryl Strayed as my 2nd favourite book I read in 2023... both of those things are possible! Just like it would be possible for a man to prefer more "female" fiction or a woman to prefer more "male" fiction. The only problem I see is with people who have strong opinions about what anyone else "SHOULD" be reading. Sorry for ranting in your comments section, but as always, I appreciate your vids :)
Thank you so much for sharing your experience with this topic, Adam! I'm afraid I might be judged the same as you since most of my favorite books happen to be by male authors, largely because of the genres I read (though I am trying to read from more female authors as well). I agree with your perspective of the "should" read problem, which could be another form of gatekeeping. I'm grateful to hear your thoughts!
@@Johanna_reads Always a pleasure! Somehow, I don't think you need to worry about being judged in the same way (I won't get into why I think that is, because that'll likely turn into another rant ;), but even if you did, you really shouldn't care (although, I know from personal experience, that's easier said than done)! Happy reading, and again, thanks for a thought provoking vid!
What a great topic! Imo, there's no problem at all with books that are geared toward people of a certain gender. People of all genders deserve to have books that capture their experiences and respond to their ways of seeing the world. I think the problem is when we lack books that target people of a specific gender. I think it's also worth noting that gender-targeted books are necessarily based on an imagined archetype of what people of a certain gender like or experience. Also, gender is smooshy and somewhat fluid. So books only capture some people from a gender or capture some people from a different gender. I'm non-binary and constantly aware of the fact that very few books are aimed at my gender, but there are lots of books that I enjoy nonetheless because gender is also only one aspect of enjoyment. There are lots of things with which to connect with a story.
I agree with everything you stated! Gender is fluid, and we benefit from seeing it represented in a variety of ways. Those standard archetypes can run the risk of becoming cliche or tropes. In other words, I think our reading appreciation can deepen with more complexity and exploration.
I think you bring up a fascinating topic when you mention how Bakker's depiction of women is meant to cause readers to interrogate themselves rather than feel, perhaps, just pity, indifference, or perhaps even less desirable responses than that. I find myself referring back to this all the time, but in Toni Morrison's The Bluest Eye, in the afterword, she talks about how she felt like it failed as a novel because it caused audiences to pity the main character rather than interrogate their own actions, ideologies, or ideas of how young, black women are vulnerable. Morrison didn't want their pity, she wanted their anger, she wanted to stir something beyond what is just pandering. And I think about that *a lot* when reading, how writers treat characters, how they portray these sorts of ideas, are they just fishing for pity? A banal emotional response? Or are they trying to provoke thought, interrogation, action? And I think it's really interesting to see how different autbors will respect or disrespect their own characters and ideas in this way. A Malazan example, I found, was that I really loved how Erikson wrote Felisin (Deadhouse Gates spoilers for anyone reading), and how she felt so respected as a character, how Erikson allowed her as a character to feel things that were perhaps unreasonable, or flawed, and discover a way out of those issues in a way that respected her agency as a female character, rather than simply pandering or trying to evoke pity from the audience. This is a specific topic I think about a lot, and informs my own writing deeply. I even sort of started writing the novel I'm working on after being so maddened by how Hanya Yanagihara disrespected her characters in A Little Life, and how she so clearly *wanted* audiences to feel pity, and used trauma as a carrot and stick to string readers along. But anyway. A bit off topic. I think the idea of a gendered audience is *largely* a commercial invention, but probably not always the case. I do find it interesting that Bakker wrote for a male audience in order to sort of speak to them, as you say, in order to try and get them to interrogate themselves. That's an instance of gendered writing I can very much get behind, and doesn't feel like cheap commercial audience-baiting. It's an interesting topic, one I haven't often thought about. As a reader of primarily literary fiction, I find audiences are almost split 50/50, my circles online are comprised of both men and women, and yes, I think Steve is definitely exaggerating with his dudebro comments, because I don't so much find it the case that only men read John Williams! But that's all anecdotal. But in the world of experimental and lit-fic, I think women are some of the sharpest minds as both authors and readers. Women in Translation month is coming up in August, you should join in and read a Woman in Translation or two. I think it would be great to bring more of that to this sphere of booktube. Sorry for the very long very rambly comment! Great video.
I love this comment! I haven't read Toni Morrison's The Bluest Eye, but you made me want to. I agree with you about Felisin. Fantastic questions and insights!
@@Johanna_reads if you decide to read The Bluest Eye, I'd love to reread it myself and maybe we could do a discussion video about it. Morrison was such a powerful writer, I cannot recommend her enough. It's telling that she considered The Bluest Eye a failure because it shows how much she cares and grows as a writer after that. Beloved is rightfully her most critically acclaimed novel and it is just a tremendous achievement.
Thank you for being so open and starting an interesting, yet difficult conversation 💕 I come to your channel because of your unique few on “male” epic fantasies. I’m sorry to hear you feel isolated at times, but know you’re not alone. I have mostly female viewers and often find myself also feeling isolated because I don’t love the fantasy booktube darlings. Mainly the male dominant ones. Those are the series that get the views, that are considered the “standard” of fantasy. I could go on but don’t want to leave an essay in your comments 🤭 Thank you for this great video ❤
This is interesting to think about. I guess I didn't realize how male-dominated this corner of booktube actually is, and by extension, the epic fantasy genre. I suppose if I look at my own personal experience, I only know one other woman who reads the same genre as me. But to be fair, I don't know many people in general who read fantasy. I guess that's why I've never felt unwelcome in this space as a woman. It kinda feels like all of us fantasy nerds just stick together and are welcoming of each other. Maybe I'm just naive though? So... I didn't know Stoner was a dude bro book. Lol. Maybe I shouldn't have recommended it to my mother.😂
The Epic Fantasy corner skewing male is something I truly never gave much thought to until I started my channel. If it helps, I buddy-read Stoner with my mother, and she loved it as much as I did! 😅
Hey Johanna I just found your channel with this video and I think this is a really interesting topic. I can understand why you would feel this way - “does my voice really matter in this space” but personally while I love literary analysis/commentary in general I think it can be a bit dull hearing the same kind of dude bros prattling on about blood meridian or whatever, and I find it a lot more refreshing and interesting to hear a female perspective, or outside of gender, just a different perspective than the average dude bro (not that there’s anything wrong with guys vibing with cormac mccarthy etc as I am a guy and also love cormac McCarthy). So I would argue that not only does your voice matter, it maybe matters even more than the “typical” representative, if we acknowledge that there is such a thing, because I think diversity of opinion and perspective is generally a beneficial thing to any given culture or fandom as long as it is a respectful one. So thank you for contributing your voice! Keep up the good work
I can’t speak to the experience of being a woman in the booktube space, I’ve heard about certain kinds of comments obviously. But I do think that we just need more diverse voices in the adult SFF space. As a gay reader/creator the representation is limited in the genre and is quite stereotypical in the history of the genre similar to how female characters have been. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with someone writing a story to resonate with people from similar walks of life, but it would be nice to have more than the typical cis gendered heterosexual white male perspective. I can also relate to the sense of isolation at times because the number of openly gay booktube creators who love epic and high fantasy are extremely limited so there aren’t many who I can feel as seen by. 🤗
I am with you on all of that! I would love to see more gay representation and other voices in adult SFF. That's one of the things I valued about my time reading YA: I got much more female representation in addition to openly gay rep and voices not focused on the typical cis gendered heterosexual white male perspective. I love that you're here, Rodger!! 🧡
@@Johanna_reads I totally agree I think that’s why I still do read a fair amount of YA especially compared to most other adult SFF booltubers because it remains the best place for representation still unfortunately. And awww thank you! I’m glad we’ve met in this bookish space even if what we love in books is quite different 🤗
It would be nice, but that can happen when your talking about a niche of a niche of a niche. For now YA is the trend over adult SFF so the newer books and authors that fit more with modern sensibilities are being published there, and you are seeing a lot of them. That does mean however that if YA stops being the trend and it shifts more towards adult SFF then you will likely also see this shift. There is some limited but growing representation in adult SFF and most modern authors I can think of are generally good about their female characters, but yes the older novels that are still a majority of the novels in the genre were written at a different time and followed the trends of writing and pop culture at the time (with a perhaps bit more of a "bias"). Personally I think it's just a waiting game, it's coming but we can't expect things to change so quickly and to have content made for that change so quickly, especially when we are talking about a more niche genre
Really interesting video! I'm glad you started this conversation. You really piqued my curiosity at the beginning when you offered examples of books written with a male audience in mind. I wondered how many of them were going to be ones I'd read and considered favorites. It turned out I had read none of them, and, with the possible exception of Stoner, I have no interest in reading them. It could be that they're epic/high fantasy. I have a general aversion to most of both high fantasy and space opera, which seem too tropey and cartoonishly bombastic for me. I read a lot of sci fi, which I do see as having a generally more male leaning readership, but I'm surprised to hear fantasy characterized the same way, because (if my Good Reads feed is any indication) it really seems to have a more female leaning readership. I'm sure my reading and viewing habits do skew more "male" (and probably more "white" and "straight") because of the gender-based socialization we're all swimming in, but a lot of what I read and watch is produced by authors and filmmakers who are women, BIPOC, and Queer because I do love stories that come from an entirely different perspective than my own. Isn't that at the core of what draws many (most?) of us to speculative fiction? Johanna, maybe that's part of the appeal for you of reading some male-targeted stories. Finding it enjoyable sometimes to read a story from a different perspective. Or, not. Just a thought.
So true! Visiting perspectives other than our own is a highlight of speculative fiction. The type of fantasy matters as to whether it's targeted to more male readers or female readers. There is adult fantasy written by female authors, but epic adult fantasy with large fandoms is predominantly written by male authors. On the other hand, YA fantasy and romantasy (adult or not) is mostly targeted towards female readers. Thanks for watching and sharing your thoughts!
I loved this video and there are so many thoughts I have on this topic but I'll limit myself to these. I've been reading fantasy since the 90s and it was obvious that it was geared towards males. There were several reasons for that. Women authors were not equally represented and most books at bookshops were from male authors. Perforce I read many male authors and loved them. Perhaps as a result I developed a preference for books targeting males. Also traditionally I think, fantasy was a genre males tended to enjoy. I knew very few women who liked it. I've never been a reader to take offence easily from a book. It all depends on the context. I won't stop reading because there is violence or racism or sexism. Unfortunately they are a part of life. Gratuitous violence however is another story. Perhaps that is yet another reason I'm drawn to what some consider male targeted fantasy. My audience is also predominantly male which I think stems from the books I discuss.
I loved hearing your thoughts on this topic! I would like to follow up sometime and talk about the history, marketing, and cultural messages that might affect these target audiences. Thank you so much for sharing your experience with reading fantasy since the 90s!
Such an interesting conversation Johanna. In all honesty I haven't really examined my reading through this gendered lens before. Looking across my shelves I don't know if I would label any of my books as strictly male or female oriented. Perhaps the closest thing is Jane Austen? 😅 Growing up I had the freedom to pick up and read whatever I wanted. I didn't have a book group or book friends to engage with. So, in a way my reading experience growing up was isolated from talks about "this is a guy book or this is a girl book" I think its a positive thing that you may not necessarily be the target audience for these books that you adore. It means that your opinions and viewpoint are fresh. Which I think is great for discussion!
A lot of the fantasy I've encountered make use of coming of age arcs (either through reflection of their historic basis or simply as an easy way to offer character development and growth), meaning there's generally some emphasis on the romantic tendencies of youth. I don't think adding a female pov is essential for book to have a balanced perspective, but I think a deemphasis on romance or at least more time spent developing interpersonal relationships prior to the romance goes a long way. Maybe some of this is my own bias in associating sexualization with a masculine perspective (and vice versa?), but when romances are somewhat predetermined, even if there is nothing physical or explicit ever discussed, it feels like there's an undercurrent of sexualization. PS. I've just started LoTR for the 1st time, and imo it doesn't feel like there is a lean despite the lack of female characters in it. Would be curious to know how others feel about that though.
Interesting thoughts about sexualization in books! I'll have to give that more thought. LoTR was my gateway into fantasy, and I never felt outside the experience as a female reader. As much as I loved the male cast, I remember a different kind of excitement anytime a female character was on the page.
What an absolutely fantastic video, and well done for starting this conversation in such an inclusive way. Thank you. Personally I think it’s fine for literature to target different groups. Everything doesn’t have to be for everyone, and it can be frustrating when people pile onto something saying how awful it is. Usually something that is targeted towards YA girls like Twilight. Twilight doesn’t appeal to me. But that’s ok. It’s not meant to. I’m a middle aged man. It’s not for me. I do think that your own life experience and how you come to a book can make an impact as well. The example I can think of for myself recently was a book of Harlan Ellison short stories that I read in June. My experience of that was hugely coloured by the fact that it was suggested to me by my teenage daughter. Would I still have reacted so negatively if she hadn’t read it, would I have reacted so negatively if I didn’t have daughters? Frankly I don’t know. What a great conversation. Found you through this video and now will be adding to your number of male subscribers.
What a great video. I'd add my thoughts, but so much has been said already. I'd just like to agree with those that this is exactly one of the reasons your thoughts are very interesting to hear. However, more than the gender thing, I feel it is the effort you put in articulating your reading experience and thoughts on the books and these kind of topics that make it worthwhile following your channel!
Wonderful video and a great topic for discussion. Generally I'd say knowing who you're readers are (or likely will be) allows a writer to craft a story in such a way that it can actually chanllenge the reader, make them examine their beliefs, morals, etc. So in some cases it might mean knowing your readers are going to be predominantly a certain gender. Sure, this means you might make some readers feel like their on the outside, but I think that's ok. Not every book is going to be for every reader no matter what.
Thank you! I think that's true that authors have a sense of their target audience, and it’s interesting how that's affected by the genre choice. True that no book is going to check all the boxes for every reader.
“I really do appreciate fantasy where multiple voices are being considered.” That really resonated with me Johanna, and I feel the same way. In fact I tend to gravitate either toward books targeted to a more balanced audience, and sometimes books targeted to a female/gender neutral audience. Not romance per se, but just a more emotionally intelligent narrative.
You said: "I love books that challenge me. I love books that have interesting themes, ask interesting questions. I love books that immerse me." Same. 100 percent. If that's happening, it doesn't matter to me whether the book has more female characters than male, or more male characters than female, or if the story is geared more toward one or the other gender, or toward some other gender along the spectrum. Good writing is good writing. Good storytelling is good storytelling. To me, that's what makes reading so wonderful. Through a great book, I can experience many different kinds of people who are different than me, and learn from their story.
Love this video! It’s funny, a lot of times when people come over to my house and see my bookshelves, they immediately assume that they are my husband’s books because of the epic fantasy represented on them! Joke’s on them because my husband doesn’t read at all 😂
Well done video, with excellent insights. Many of the titles listed don’t strike me as specifically male oriented. I can see why Bakker might lean more heavily towards men. Or something like Lonesome Dove, or Malazan. Even so, when I think of laser focused male targeted books or films, I think something like Chuck P’s Fight Club (an attack on traditional masculinity-as I interpret it), or something like Dead Poet Society. I view both of these not only as heavily targeted towards men, but as male inspiration narratives. Perhaps I’m wrong, but men don’t have THAT many such books or movies. Both Fight Club and Dead Poet Society say something about what it’s like to be a man, or how one ought to be a man (one can leave value judgments aside). Bakker, Erikson, etc don’t tell men how to interface with the world in a healthy way. I think the distinction I’d draw is: a narrative that leans toward men, and one that is tailor made for men. If this makes sense? Hopefully I didn’t drone on too much lol.
I completely agree about Fight Club, book and movie! I wouldn’t necessarily think about it at all except that I’ve noticed the fandoms for many of the books I’ve mentioned more heavily include male readers. Thanks!
@@Johanna_reads you did a great job discussing the topic. And I love your videos, btw. You def deserve more viewers. This was especially interesting to me, since I think my world would tend to draw a more male audience, but I’ve gotten positive reception from folks across the gender spectrum. Keep up the good work.
This is a really compelling topic. I hope that a lot of the commenters below would come to the Fireside to have a bigger discussion. Until then, I'm going to read through the comments here!
Malazan is dude bro? My philosophy about reading is read what you want. But I also follow Stephen King's advice which is to read voraciously and to read widely. When I hear about 'dudebro' or 'red flag' books, it often just pisses me off. So should that mean that I should read books that agree with my values and beliefs? No. Anyway, I don't want to rant too long on that, this was a good video.
Excellent questions raised, Johanna. You've got me thinking so much. It's such a hard topic to articulate, and there's so much history, sexism, personal preference, etc etc wrapped up in it. What a great topic.
I'm glad you made this video! I think it's certainly possible that gender targeting happens at the author-level, but I wouldn't be surprised if BookTok has a wider female audience than BookTube. I haven't done any homework on it, but as far as demographics of your subscribers, for some reason I just think TikTok pulls in more of the female demographic. No research to back it up though, just a top of the head thought. I'm not saying more SFF readers are men because Janny let me have it last time :)
That's a really good point about BookTok! BookTube started out very much the same, but it's exploded into so many different sections. Janny certainly knows about all the female authors! Haha!
Lot of good thoughts! I am a guy who likes to read romance novels, so I have a lot of sympathy for you. Though I am a bit less sanguine about the change in genres - I feel growth is good, audience shuffling is not, because excluding the old audience isn't really more inclusive to me.
That's cool that you read romance! I read romance occasionally, but it’s not my go-to genre. I’m not sure exactly what you mean about excluding older audiences. Thanks!
@@Johanna_reads Well, there's a movement in a lot of historically focused genres - superhero comics, epic fantasy, etc - to shift the energy and marketing of the genre in ways that specifically appeal to female audiences to the general exclusion of most male readers. At least, that's my read on the situation.
@@millernumber1 thanks for sharing! I know nothing about comics. I haven’t seen a shortage of books appealing to male readers in fantasy, but I am seeing authors who write books that could appeal to both men and women: Joe Abercrombie, Mark Lawrence, Janny Wurts, Tad Williams, Brandon Sanderson, John Gwynn, Daniel Abraham, Adrian Tchaikovsky, Guy Gavriel Kay, Simon Jimenez, and those are just a few authors that immediately come to mind.
Hearing the different perspective and views that people have is something I enjoy. When someone say "oh this was my favorite part or this bit just hit me in a certain way" helps me pick up on parts of a book I might not have noticed or thought about as I was reading.
Great video Johanna. I’ve read alot of books that are probably considered male targeted but never thought about how it might impact my connection to them. I’d love to see a deeper dive into this topic through a panel or livestream.
What a fascinating topic that I simply had not considered before! You do frequently find these more ‘off piste’ topics on your channel, or at least compared to the other channels I watch. This sort of discussion is great, very eye-opening, and gives me pause to consider my own reading choices. I’m a dude, my YT subscription list is around 50:50 M:F, ish, but I do have stats in The StoryGraph showing how many book hauls each channel I subscribe to has influenced. Thus for me the book interest overlap is a big driver in sticking around. I’ve got quite a few channels with a SciFi focus - e.g. Secret Sauce of Storycraft, Sound & Fury, The Shades of Orange - so maybe it’s down to the circle of channels you swim in. Many of your BookTube pals are channels I too will follow, while Secret Sauce and Shades of Orange are friends and mention each other frequently. So I dive into one, then swim amongst the others when I chase a connection. I don’t think I tend to notice the gender targeting in the books I read, but when I do it can push me away from the book. I can think of a few that make me cringe as their memory surfaces in my head right now. But I’m also not sure what makes masculine books. My current read featured a gang performing a train heist - five females and one bloke in the crew. I guess I like reading books with a diverse variety of characters, as with real life where I enjoy a bit of diversity there too.
It does sound like you enjoy books and channels with diverse representation! I love that. Whitney from Secret Sauce of Storycraft is a good friend of mine. Although our channels are in different corners of BookTube, we both share largely male audiences. She's amazing with sci-fi recommendations!
I tend to read a mix of fantasy in terms of authors in gender, ethnicity, etc. but I do have some things that will turn me off a book. For example, if an author (generally male) knowingly or unknowingly objectifies most/all of their female characters or they are caricatures/stereotypes I don't want to bother with the book. The same goes if authors (generally female) do the same for the majority of their male characters - which is more often when there's a heavy romance side plot. These portrayals feel unbalanced/dehumanizing to me so it gets on my nerves. But I think in general what are 'turn offs' in a story will differ for each person. I work in a 'male dominated' field and experience a lot of stereotypes, etc., so my tolerance for that kind of thing in my leisure time is very low.
This was an interesting and thought-provoking video. I would agree that it's okay for books to have a gendered target audience, but I would also add that I believe most of these books probably aren't consciously targeted towards male readers by the author. Maybe they're in a historically male-dominant genre or something or maybe the content happens to appeal to men more often; there could be a lot of reasons that their audience is predominately male, but I think that generally the author was just writing what they wanted to write (which I guess doesn't necessarily mean, on a technical level, that the book isn't targeted towards a male audience, I just think usually it just isn't done consciously). I would believe Second Apocalypse is an exception; I haven't read it. I'm just making a general statement that not meant to be applied to everything on an individual basis. Of course I don't mean to misrepresent your argument by saying you mean the opposite, I'm just trying to add my thoughts. Hey, I wonder if this video's audience was mostly male...
I think good writing transcends a target audience. One of my favorite books is “A Tree Grows in Brooklyn “. It is definitely targeted at women, but beautifully written and I recommend it to anyone. You should read what makes you happy. Having said that genre writing has come a long way. Female authors don’t have to use their initials or a pseudonym to hide their gender anymore.
Ha, ha, assassin elves seem to also be clairvoyant because today I posed -- on a very different platform and in a very different context -- the question if we need all female spaces on BookTube. My answer is no and that's what most others said. But we also acknowledged that female booktubers can sometimes be marginalised or even silenced. So I agree when you say that there aren't many of us in this particular corner of BookTube. And yep, that can sometimes be a bit lonely. Are books for a gendered target audience ok. I don't see why not. Nor do I see a problem with reading books that are for a target audience that's not my own. After all, we as humans have the capacity to imagine us in loads of different scenarios and lives.The problem starts when we attach value judgements to certain categories. Because as Gloria Steinem says "we are all linked, but we are not ranked"! Thanks for the video, Johanna, and all the best!
Authorial intent and reader/audience experience are two different but (can be) overlapping things. Whether you are talking about authorial or character depiction, there is a fine line between male perspective and male gaze, but it tends to get conflated. I do find it interesting, and saddening, that often there seems to be this (over-generalized!) hierarchy where male authors writing male characters with male audiences in mind is at the top and female authors writing a female character for female audiences is the bottom. Tangentially related, as adults we tend to read particularly YA and middle grade books with the adult-mindset--those books are not written for adult readers so expectation of those books to satisfy aspects, tropes, themes usually found in adult-oriented texts is unfair.
Personally, I think that your perspective as someone who is not deemed 'the target audience' is the exact reason why your voice is so essential and important. There is a freshness and nuance to your perspective that can illuminate new thoughts or opinions to 'the target audience' audience. Secondly, I do believe that an author writing with a target audience that is specifically gendered can be dangerous because, once again, I think to reach a level of nuance within a work, it has to take into the full spectrum of human experience, even if it is focusing on certain experiences that lend themselves to be gendered, e.g. your example of ASOIAF. I honestly have felt the same as you do with epic fantasy's male leaning stance when I read a romance book, or lit-fic from a female author, but the latter is something I especially love. Once again, I believe that my voice provides a different perspective and I ended up writing my dissertation critiquing neoliberal feminism. Just keeping do you, because you're awesome!
You are one of the best on booktube and you have excellent taste. You should be allowed to talk about any books that you want to and enjoy any type of books that you want to regardless of your gender. I'm not sure why it wouldn't be ok for books to have specific targets.
Really interesting discussion! This is something I don't find myself thinking about a whole lot, but I do definitely think some series are targeted at one gender or another and I think that's okay ultimately, but funnily enough I actually find myself particualry drawn to so many female authors and not enjoying some of the more "dudebro" books/series so some extent, so end up in kind of the opposite space as you!
I love that you read from so many female authors and don't think twice about it! Some of the female adult SFF authors tend to focus on male characters, but I'm grateful that their voices are heard!
Such an interesting conversation! I honestly think that you should never second-guess the validity of your experience or review of a book purely because of your gender. If anything, I think it is highly valuable to hear a woman's takes on books that are largely read/reviewed by male audiences, and especially when it is someone as mindful and insightful as you giving the review! 🥰 I honestly don't think there is anything wrong with gender targeted books, so long as the author is being respectful of everyone's experiences. Loved thinking about this, it's not a topic that I had given much consideration to before! ☺
You're very eloquent for a dudebro, lol. I would never have thought that authors target gender in their works. I guess I just assumed that the author would just write their story and have characters and character POV based on thoughts/experience/research and let the chips fall where they may. Good topic and conversation starter, I wonder if there's a deeper discussion here with other booktubers like Merphy/Allen/Jimmy/Philip/etc. Sort of get both genders and thoughts on that targeting. Thanks for the video :)
Great video, Johanna. Should books have a gendered audience? I also don't know, i don't see it as an automatic problem but it could easily become one. Authorial intent matters but can only go so far. But you could say a target audience in mind is necessary for marketing reasons. Some books might hit harder or resonate more if you come from a certain place or point in life, depending on or regardless of gender. Lets take Tigana for example, it seems to resonate more for people who come from countries and cultures that have historically been oppressed or are part of discrimated groups. Of course I'm not saying having that background is necessary to appreciate or love a book but just something that may factor in. I've always been of the opinion that a casual reader should read whatever they want when they want (life is short, and we only get one (if you ask me)). I scoff at the idea you *have* to read something unless maybe its for academic purposes. Though I acknowledge I'm coming from a place of privilege as a straight white dude. Depiction equaling endorsement is something I've seen too many people are comfortable with when discussing and critiquing art. That's interesting, I didn't notice Toll the Hounds being particularly gendered but you've a point, it does skew heavily for male povs but for me that book was more about second chances, grief and ageing than specifically about being male. I would like to add to your comments regarding Bakker and challenging male (especially straight white males) reader expectations, despite what the fan art would lead you to believe, many of the characters (including Achamiam, Esmenet, Mimara, Proyas etc) are people of colour. Your voice absolutely matters, Johanna, and don't let anybody tell you otherwise. You've valuable insights and a chill vibe, we also have similar taste. Personally, my absolute favourite booktubers heavily skews towards women than men. Sorry I'm rambling 😅
Thank you so much for your perspective on this topic and kind words! The marketing part of the equation is huge, so thank you for bringing that up. Loved hearing your thoughts here about Bakker and Tigana. Happy reading!
For the most part I feel literature generally is really behind the times, especially fantasy. It's a sorta Dante "Divine Comedy" thing: literary-wise a lot of these books do justice, but on a greater academic level and where we are now (and extensively where we're going) I feel literature is ultimately behind. Heck, even most literary studies and academics like philosophy are falling behind as well. I've yet to read something that is truly looking toward the future in any of these departments. And maybe it's true there's nothing new under the sun, but that strikes me as an easy way out.
You aren’t the target audience for Bakker, but that’s why I watch your channel in the first place. I think target audiences are good. That’s what makes unique reader voices standout in the first place. I’ve always been on the outside looking in, in general, so I guess fitting in has never been my priority. I will never resonate with characters like Catelyn, yet she’s still one of my favorites precisely because she’s something that I probably won’t ever understand on an emotional level. I’m a writer, so this might be part of the reason for my approach.
I think people resonate with people have have the sane interests. It is true that you are one of the 3 or 4 female booktubers I am subscribed to, but that is because it is clear that you speak the same language. Some booktubers, male OR female, just clearly have a different perspecive on things and sometimes the natural way that divides is through gender. Hope the best for Sarah J Maas fans, but it just isnt my cup Dr. Pepper. For authors, i am not sure if most have a target gender in mind as much as they are trying to write something they themselves find compelling. I think it is ok either way. I like good characters without feeling like i am being pandered to or lectured too much. Sometimes that happens too.
Good to know what you mean with the term dude bro. It made me think more about these women hating men like Jordan peterson. I'm from a non English country, so I might have been the only one not having the right idea about is. I'm happy you're on TH-cam. I like epic fantasy and (older) sci fi so I follow lots of male TH-camrs. I mostly don't mind reading books with some misogyny in it. But I dislike it when a TH-camr recommends a book and doesn't say anything about that. So I would say, just tell us.
I echo what others have said, good writing is good writing but on the topic of target demographic, its a must. Just as you said a lot of epic fantasy is male oriented because of darker themes and elements of world building that make something complex. Who would be interested mostly in that generally? Mostly men for a lot of series, like the Witcher and ASOIAF are good examples. Its wouldn't make sense to market the target demographic to a group that has zero interest in that genre or specific series. A popular example is 50 Shades of Grey, that marketed to women specifically because of the romance and perspective of the book. As a man, I have zero interest in that. So when talking about demographic I think a distinction needs to be made. Good writing appeals to certain demographic not necessarily for specific demographic. Appealing to a demographic means just writing the story you want to write andsee who it appeals to, not pandering to a specific demographic even though both have examples of books that have been written in both way. Id say the first is better for authenticity and better overall writing but your writing when you pander becomes to overly centered on the target they are directly writing around deliberately. We see this in movies and other media, how quality is sacrificed for pandering even to the betrayal and detriment of your original demographic. But overall, demographic targeting cant be moved away from, someone has to read your book, and the best group is the demographic your writing appeals to, which for epic fantasy is male mostly. I wouldnt change any of that to appeal to a foreign uninterested demographic or you risk the quality of your writing because said foreign demographic might not like said subject, so it gets watered down and risks becoming androgynous just to appeal to some else at the expense of your core demographic. But I think mostly the two genders have shown to be interested as a whole in very different topics and styles. Not sayong theres no overlap, your evidence that there is but that overlap, will mostly remain a minority due to differing interests.
The marketing part of this topic is something I failed to cover, but it's also part of a much larger discussion. While marketing trends might "suggest" that most men but not women enjoy darker themes and complex world-building, that's a stereotype I can't buy into.
I remember the first time i notice something like this... i as reading "the hunger games" because my girlfriend at the time told me, and it was weird, i felt all the men in that book were strange for some reason, then i find out the autor was a women and it click on me... Can women guess if the author is a man because they notice strange things that only women could notice in dialogue and behavior?. Because I think I notice when I try to read "romance", because most of the men in those books feel "false" or in my mind I always have something like "who would say/do something like that", I have always felt strange in that type of literature.
I have heard that about some romance books, but I think it depends on the author. Robin Hobb, for example, wrote a male protagonist that is a favorite character of many of my male fantasy fan friends. Same with the main male protagonist in Janny Wurts’s Wars of Light and Shadow. Thanks for watching and sharing your thoughts!
With The Hunger Games specifically, I think some of that can be chalked up to Katniss being ... not an unreliable narrator, but a narrator who doesn't understand the other characters that well. We see all the male characters from Katniss's POV, and it's a plot point that Katniss is terrible at reading people (makes out with Peeta multiple times, still doesn't realize the dude's falling in love - is the only one to miss the obvious hints in the second book that the tributes are planning a rebellion).
It’s interesting to me, because I feel like book focused social media and book clubs are dominated by women. I am fine with this, because books are for everyone. That said, I can see how some genres lean toward a specific gender, and I have made an effort to broaden the authors I read in this and other dimensions.
Interesting perspective. For some reason, I assumed Fantasy had a large female audience. On the other hand, my channel's gender breakdown is 90+% male... That # is consistent with other SF channels I discussed this with.
It does in YA fantasy and Romantasy. I'm just speaking from my analytics though. Comparison channels (that my viewers watch) are always other male fantasy BookTubers with much bigger followings. Sci-fi is probably more predominantly male, so that breakdown of your viewers doesn't surprise me. Proud to be one of the 9%!
@@bartsbookspace Sarah J. Maas has a huge appeal among young adult and adult women. Unfortunately, the two Maas books I've read did not work for me, but I have epic fantasy-loving friends who love her books!
@@Johanna_reads She is certainly popular. lol At my local Barnes & Noble she has a whole , large, section dedicated to her. Perhaps a case of Business trumps Art.
Growing up as the only child of my father, a lot of the media I consumed was male targeted. For example, I remember as a child watching Star Trek the next generation together. At times it made me feel like growing up that I couldn’t relate to the girls my age. But on the other hand, I would be interested how many males are interested in media made for women. There is another bias of men considering media made for women as lesser. Which, I don’t really think is fair. I hope everyone likes what they like regardless if they are the intended audience
I love this comment! I might need to follow up about this in a separate video, but I LOVE when I see male readers who are open-minded about books targeted towards women. Criminolly and Bookish (who were in one of my recent "Why Read?" episodes on BookTube) have videos in which did this. There are also a few male BookTubers who've fearlessly read and praised books by Sarah J. Mass, like The Book Guy and Ian Gubeli. I love to see it!
This comment and video is interesting to think about. I too got alot of my book/other media taste from my dad/brothers growing up. As an adult I tend to gravitate to other women with similar tastes but books are pretty tough. I know very few women that read sci-fi and high fantasy.
It is ok in my opinion to write for a targeted audience. My personal issues arise when it comes at the cost of being misogynistic, racist, ageist, etc.
I think it's fine for books to have specific target audiences if it scratches that group's itch. Are there going to be people outside that group who read something and don't get the full experience? Absolutely. In the same way that all the popular older fantasy's been written with the assumption it's men reading (trust me, there's plenty older fantasy stuff NOT making that assumption), there are genres out there written with the assumption it's a woman that's going to read the book. But I do think as of a decade plus ago inclusivity became a major ask in fantasy, so newer books are much more cognizant of this.
It certainly has been changing over the last decade. It helped when authors like GRRM, Hobb, N.K. Jeminsin, Wurts, and Erikson proved it possible since the 90s.
@@Johanna_reads Yea, they definitely paved the way. Also people like Anne McCaffrey (Pern), Ursula K. Le Guin (Earthsea), Marion Zimmer Bradley (Avalon - though she's taboo now), Margaret Weis w/ Tracy Hickman, Mercedes Lackey . . . a lot, lol. But RE: being a woman that reads Dude Bro fantasy, there definitely aren't many content creators like you but I guess at least the community's welcoming? I've come across the occasional video in the past where guys who read YA and tried to do Booktube in that sphere talk about the vitriol and hatred that get sent their way simply because of their gender. It can't be easy but at least it's not actively hostile (I hope!).
@@OnlyTheBestFantasyNovels I've been very fortunate. That's crazy about guys reading YA! I've long loved Jesse the Reader and Gavin Reads It All (though Gavin truly reads it all now 😄).
I'll be honest, it's in part because you're a female voice speaking about Bakker and darker, more thoughtful Fantasy that I'm especially interested in what you have to say about it. It's a perspective that I don't get to see too much, especially of someone who enjoys the books as much as you and I do. I've seen a couple female reviewers try Bakker and bounce off the series, so i'm glad your enjoyment of 2nd Apocalypse kind of proves that the series isn't just for men, or that the series is anti-woman(which I definitely disagree with)
This is a very interesting topic and a great video. I'm enjoying all the discussion in the comments as well! Growing up, I definitely felt "not like other girls" when it came to my enjoyment of SFF, but some of my deepest and longest friendships have been from the few other girls that also read the "boy" books and played the video games all the boys were playing. However, I did sometimes feel lonely or like I was "doing it wrong." It actually made me spiteful towards many traditionally feminine things in a way I didn't realize until my mid-20s. Now I still enjoy my more dark, in-depth, thematic SFF but also like a good cozy read every now and then! I think it could also be interesting to delve into modern adaptations and how they often have a different target audience than the original text and if that's okay or not. Is it possible to keep the spirit of the original work without maintaining the same target audience?
Thank you for sharing about your experience with this topic! Sounds like we've shared the experience of feeling a little isolated with our preferred genres. I hope you no longer ever feel like you're "doing it wrong" and continue finding that balance. I need some cozy reads now and then too! :) As for your question, I think several modern adaptations are taking that into account. It's possible and a great thing! :)
Excellent topic Johanna. I think the definition of gender or what is defined as gender rolls has changed significantly in past 40 years and continues to do so. I believe the line between what women are suppose to like as opposed to men is fading and will soon be non existent, maybe not in our life time but in the near/distant future. Unfortunately We as group tend to reinvigorate these gender lines when we label books such as "Hot Girl Summer Books" or "Dude Bro Books". This is such an interesting topic that I could talk about at length but I need to brush up on my Sociology before I start making claims. lol. Excellent video Johanna.
I do not believe this. Men and women are inherently different, while our roles in society can change, it doesnt change what we fundamentally crave or how we experience life.
@MrEvldreamr Im just curious and in no way saying Im right or your wrong, but what makes men and women so different? What are women "supposed" to fundamentally crave that men are not?
Thank you, Dan! I agree with you. What we consider gender roles is changing. There's always more to learn and understand about identity construction and what influences our preferences.
There's a saying, "If you try to please everyone, you end up pleasing no one." For example, not everyone wants to have a big romance, and that audience will probably turn away from books with a heavy romance element. This does not make the book bad or that particular audience heartless for not liking romance. Some authors (sometimes a few publishers) believe that if they throw everything and the kitchen sink into a work to say "there's something for everyone" that book will have universal appeal. More likely, each audience/demographic will find something unnecessary to the story and be turned away. Authors, you can create what you like then examine it to see who to properly market it towards. However, some audiences are A) not as large as others which will limit the number of prospective customers, or B) just don't read as much as some other groups like males tend to be more visual and gravitate towards media that can be seen. Perhaps this is why Romance is probably the best-selling and most profitable in genre fiction? I think authors and publishers should go into any creative project understanding the analytics in order to have reasonable expectations. That's lost on some creative types, and they end up marketing their work inappropriately towards the wrong people. There is nothing wrong with writing towards a specific audience if you understand that audience. As a matter of fact, an author can become quite commercially successful if employing an almost formulaic approach, like Louis La'Mour with his westerns. And being prolific didn't hurt either. Authors, focus on writing the best story possible, and figure to whom to market it towards afterward. If you notice your work attracting a certain audience, you could leverage that knowledge to strategically market your book to gain more of that audience yet still maintain realistic expectations.
Interesting points! I'm continuing to wonder about author intent and the massive role marketing plays with this topic. I would think authors would be in favor of writing first and figuring out the specific audience afterwards, but some might be intentionally focused.
@Johanna_reads I agree. I too think most writers want to write first and figure the audience out afterward. However, some writers are "write for hire". Ghost writers or movie novelization authors come to mind, authors specifically hired to write a particular story for a specific client/audience. I also think writing for specific audiences was more prevelant during the Golden era of mass market paperbacks (1960s-1980s). There are also authors who believe they must crank out books in order to be a full-time writer. Otherwise, they believe they won't earn enough money to live on. I can see these authors gravitating towards writing for a certain audience if that secures the steady paycheck. And once they have a specific fan base, there's a tendency to try to please them in order for them to buy the next book.
Well, if it wasn't okay for books to have a gendered target audience then what happens to the romance genre? We shouldn't begrudge books meant for people other than ourselves, and we should read whatever the hell we feel like, markets, the internet, and peers be damned. Also, it wouldn't hurt any of us to try something outside our comfort zones once in a while (or not, it's not that big a deal).
Interesting conversation in light of a recent article on Dazed (July 22) about how men don't read anymore, especially novels. The headline says that the ones who do are gay! It's unbelievably stupid. There have been a few booktubers who have taken up the discussion and pointed out the obvious flaws in the article's arguments. I would link the article directly but YT doesn't like that!
No problem with having a targeted audience of whatever catagory you chose. This can be because the author is trying to confront the reader or to entertain an audience. Now how marketing and publishing targets a demographic is another issue. An interesting topic for discussion might be comparing how male/female authors write female/male characters or straight writing gay and vice versa. Using Bakker as an example, and to some extent Erickson, his writing confronts the reader in a very graphic and often unsubtle way. The violence isn't voyeuristic or glorified. You are supposed to be repulsed of what the characters do and perhaps see a reflection in society today. Two characters from Liveships also come to mind. I also can't say they are entertaining. It is a strange feeling to love a book you don't like reading at times if that makes sense. I often use Schindler's List as an example. And as you are finding out in Second Apocalypse, the female arcs are often the most interesting. I also didn't connect with a lot Toll, either time I read it. Perhaps I just don't have the personal experiences to identify with it.
All excellent points! Thanks for sharing, Eric! I expect I'll probably not feel differently about Toll the Hounds upon reread, which is totally fine. I think it's okay not to have the experiences to identify with a book if it resonates for so many others.
Have you read Ninth Rain (Jen Williams) and/or Godkiller (Hannah Kaner). These are books that were recomended to me by women as their favourite. I couldn't get into them at all. Noticing now that they were written by ladies, maybe the tide goes both ways, and thats ok.
@@Johanna_reads Ninth Rain was an absolute blast to read through, and there's a reason why two of the three books won the British Fantasy awards (and deservedly , so). It also kinda relates to the topic in that it is written by a female author, has several female (and male) protagonists, diverse relationships and still it is undoubtedly very epic in nature, even with the setting being a mix of sci-fi and fantasy. Exactly what you would be looking for in a book that can appeal to everyone and is NOT gendered.
I expect that most authors write the books they want to write rather than to target a particular type of reader. But publishers absolutely market books towards certain people. It’s just what they think will make them the most money. It’s so transparent how some books are marketed, jumping on trends, trying to present it as ‘like this other book’
Please! This recent trend of gendering books has been really bothering me lately. As someone who has been a part of the literary community for many years, I have noticed this phenomenon especially since the rise in popularity of Forth Wing. I am curious to know if writers intentionally write their books with the intention of targeting only male or teen girl readers, or if their goal is to share their stories with a diverse audience and gain popularity? Recently, an individual sought a book recommendation for a 13-year-old male. This request raises questions regarding the basis for assuming the child's gender and interests. It is unclear how the parent determined that the child would prefer books involving magic and war or those promoting love and compassion. In addition, I appreciate your contributions as a female booktuber whose reading preferences closely align with my own. As a fellow female reader, I have consistently followed your recommendations and added books to my reading list based on your suggestions, as I have found that our tastes are remarkably similar.
I'm curious about the author question as well! I assume many writers think about themselves as readers and write according to their own gender identity, but I think some actively think beyond that. Thank you so much!!
Oh my gosh, Johanna, I love this video so much. Glad someone is talking about it! I think it's natural for a book to have a target audience in mind. I think this idea is two fold: 1. Target audience of the author 2. Target audience of the publisher Sure, sometimes those two will align, but sometimes it won't. After all, the publisher's main goal is to make money and authorial intent doesn't trump that. On an ethical level, I don't think that books should be as "boy books" or "girl books" or whatever (I really dislike the label of "women's fiction"... like what is that? why is there a need for a qualifier?). However, on a marketing level, I understand that creating this divide helps create focus groups of consumers more likely to buy a specific product, rather than throwing the product out into the world and hoping any random person will find it interesting enough to buy. As for authosr, I think it's only natural that they write to (at least inadvertently) to a certain intended reader. When people whose taste I don't know too well ask me for reading recommendations, I get quite nervous to be honest. This is because I truly believe that with books its all about finding the right reader, and it's ok if a book doesn't work for you because you weren't the intended audience. (A good example of this for me is Hitchhikers Guide which I thought was "ok/nothing special" because I just wasn't the intended audience since I don't enjoy that style of comedy). Of course this raises the question of should we only read for enjoyment? Books that we are certain will satisfy our proclivities? Or should we strive to read books, as well, that we know going in will be not in the 4.5-5star range, but that have other benefits (historical relevance, new writing style, conflicting ideology, etc)? Food for thought. About us 🎀girlies 🎀 being in a male dominated area of booktube (I concur with you about this!), I liked your insights too. Personally, my experience has mostly been positive as well! Sure I get some weird s3xual comments about me and if a certain subset of people don't agree with me, they'll probably refer to me being "too young" and a woman. However, I think that this is also something we can use to our advantage because we are filling a niche perspective! Before I started by TH-cam channel it was so important for me to watch you, Merphy, BookBorn, Liene, Brittany, etc. Definitely helped me mitigate that same "sense of isolation". It's an honor to be a "dude bro book lover" with you haha. I can't wait to watch more of your Malazan videos when I get back to Deadhouse Gates. Also "depiction isn't endorsement" is a sentiment I agree with 100% Great video!
Wera, you are so awesome! I love how you distinguished the marketing side of the equation. I feel the same way about offering random recommendations. I need to know specifics about the person. By the way, I felt the same way as you about Hitchhiker's Guide! Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts! So excited for all your future Malazan thoughts! 😊
I read a variety of genres. I think I prefer “dude bro” books a lot. But I sneak in some Christian romance in there so I can buddy read with my mom. My opinion? I think books are gender oriented for the most part.
My mother was a huge science fiction fan back in the 60s and 70s. She gave me 2 Robert A. Heinlein juveniles for Christmas to get me started. I went on to read everything he wrote, along with many other SF writers. I guess I was in a minority, but I never felt it was a bad thing. Of course, writing is a bit gendered. You write from your own experiences. But that isn't to say you can't read outside your experiences. Otherwise, how would you grow as a reader?
As a man who read Toll the Hounds I felt as distanced. I believe it is the focus on such an inhuman character as Anomander and the break from the continuous plotline of the previous books do not help.
So, this may be a bit presumptuous, but I suspect that people who are drawn to read books "across gender lines" so to speak, are people with a higher degree of empathy; both having the desire and capacity to understand things that other people like and experience. Not that people reading within their targetted gender lack empathy, but I think you're less likely to find a male reading women's fiction and vice versa if they don't have it. On feeling out of place: I distinctly remember the early days of World of Warcraft and rarely ever encountering another woman playing (especially in the more masculine faction), and how odd an experience it was... It can be isolating, but also feel freeing. For you, with few other women discussing these books/topics, it may mean less pressure to present them a certain way. You can just be you! (I would hope that would always be the case, but I think we all suffer from wanting to conform on some level.) In the end though, I don't think there's ever a real reason why we like what we like. We just *do*. Maybe I like male-dominated video games because of my older brother's influence, but I also have an older sister, and we are nothing alike! Exposure helps, but it won't dictate what lights us up! Some things are more gender typical, but I think humans couldn't exist if we all were too alike--and if we never made the effort to understand each others' differences, we'd struggle more too.
Hi Johanna. Writers are encouraged to think about their readership when they write their books. I would find it unusual to read something where it wasn't clear who the intended audience was for the work. I read books by male and female writers. Content is important and I find some depictions highly disturbing. If the depicted actions fit the tale being told I leave it in context and move on. If the author belabors a problematic point I may DNF as I did with The Man in the High Castle by PKD (racism on display). I'm reading GoT by GRRM now and find it refreshing that Jon Snow and Dani are given equal time on the page. It makes the reading experience richer for all.
Thank you, Curt! I am certain writers thinking about their readership, even they're just thinking of themselves as the intended reader. Glad you're enjoying GoT!
I can't think of a reason why it would be bad to target a specific audience with a book. It is interesting and useful to hear a different gender speak about things that are not necessarily intended for them. I don't think it is fair to say most epic fantasy is targeted to men. Most of them at least try to appeal to women. The subject matter and how it is written just appeal to men more than women. Whereas there are books that do not try to appeal to the other gender they double down on the appeal to one gender. Twilight is a great example of this.
I think adult fantasy is entering an age of being more diverse in audience marketing. YA fantasy got there far more quickly. Historically, fantasy and sci-fi were mostly written with male readers in mind. The genre has much to offer a wide range of readers, so I'm glad more voices are being considered!
Of course it's OK to write books with a targeted audience! How else are you supposed to write children's books or coming-of-age stories? From "Taran Wanderer" to "Are You There, God? It's Me, Margaret", describing uniquely gendered experiences can be very valuable.
Well said! I agree, but I also found this challenging as someone speaking from what might be considered a different voice than the intended gender target.
I don't have a problem with gendered target audience as people are nuanced and they'll gravitate towards one thing anyway. Much the same way that more men really like the mechanics of cars, and you see less woman(Less not all) seem interested in this sort of thing. And the same thing with makeup, more woman are into it than men. Though that last one is a polarizing example, and I realize that. Don't read too much into it. That being said, who we tell certain types of stories to, we'll change the tone or how something is portrayed based on the type of reader whom we think might like that story.
As someone who reads widely, I think one reason you may have more male readers (other then the reasons you listed) is because most female readers--read widely and therefore tend to watch content creators who read widely as well.
I would say Bakker's world is brutal for everyone, not just women. So if the world is brutal as a whole, of course, it is not going to be great for women.
I agree that it's brutal towards everyone, but I think it's even more brutal towards women. It's a patriarchy, and women are made to know their place. Bakker pushes through that "glass ceiling" a little bit, as far I can tell with where I am in the series, but I would feel far safer as a man in that world than a woman.
![เปิดคำทำนาย นอสตราดามุส - บาบา วานก้า ปี 2025 คนทั่วโลกต้องเจออะไรบ้าง? | แฉ 11 ธ.ค. 67 [2/3] |GMM25](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/xmTIKWJUMPM/mqdefault.jpg)
Thanks for starting the conversation Johanna! It certainly is an interesting experience discussing primarily epic fantasy and sci fi, especially when discussing the way certain things land from a female reader perspective. I’m very thankful though to have the space to do that and friends like you to discuss it with! Wonderful video ❤
Thank you so much, my friend! ❤️
Books CAN have specific target audiences but they aren't limited to them. Anyone should be able to read, discuss and enjoy any book they want even if they are not the target audience.
Cheers to that! Thanks for watching and weighing in!
For me, representation will always play second fiddle to the quality of the work. Also, I would like to point out that when you felt left out reading the Malazan book, we're not always supposed to be included. Sometimes you're on the outside looking in. I could take your same complaint and substitute a queer friendly book in for the Malazan book. Imagine if you're a straight person complaining about not feeling included in a queer book. You're not supposed to feel included all the time. Not everything is written to make everyone comfortable. You're supposed to be able to experience other perspectives in your reading. When Nabakov wrote Lolita, he wasn't doing it for an audience of pedophiles. He wrote from the perspective of a monster so that the reader can put themselves in an uncomfortable place and experience the perspective of a terrible human being. The more perspectives you're reading from, the more you will learn about people who are not like you, and that's wonderful reading experience.
I love this point! I'm glad the Malazan book resonated so deeply with many of my male friends. From that standpoint, it did what it was supposed to do!
As a dude who was raised by a mother who is a hardcore science fiction fan, I find the whole stereotype that women want light, breezy books, while men like darker books with complex themes just head-scratching to me. I was reading Ursula K LeGuin, Octavia Butler, Sherri S. Tepper, and Julian May by the time I was a tween, simply because my parents were completely okay with me picking anything up off their shelves that piqued my interest. When I think back to my reading during that time period, I think the female authors as a whole were more thematically rich, with observations on race, gender, and society woven through their books. In contrast, the male authors I read back then in speculative fiction were often more purely escapist in nature, with the "sense of wonder" within the stories holding much of the appeal.
Thinking about the example of Bakker in particular (who I love, but I think the title of "world's most brilliant edgelord" is accurate) I am wondering why it is that nihilism and "edgy" themes in general are more appealing to a male target audience. Could some of it have to do with the gender hierarchy in our culture? Could some men, understanding that they should feel happy with their lot, but feeling miserable regardless, be searching for a (lack of) meaning, while women have to deal with "grimdark light" every day (maybe worse depending upon the culture/context) and thus want an escape, rather than reinforcement?
Men do like darker books and women DO like lighter novels.
You can look at the book sales and clearly see what genres and what tropes sell to what gender.
Being an exception to the rule doesnt make you the rule. It also doesnt mean that men cannot enjoy female targeted media (barbie, the notebook, musicals for example)
There is no law saying men are barred from watching them, but neither should there be a rule compelling men to watch them either.
Sounds like you had wonderful parents and an excellent selection of books available to you! It's interesting to speculate what identity or generational factors affect the types of fiction people are drawn to. I have tremendous respect for that older generation of authors, like Butler and Le Guin, who did not flinch from hard themes in SFF.
I should add that I completely agree that the stereotype is problematic and unfounded when we note authors like Le Guin, Butler, and many others.
Great video Johanna! When I read fiction I'm not going to kie, I tend to gravitate towards dude-bro books, but outside a handful of male booktubers, I mostly watch female booktubers that are covering those kinds of books. I think women's voices analyzing and critiquing these kinds of works is very informative and valuable, as there are ideas and concepts that slip past me or are normalized without thought because of my postionality, and a woman's perspective helps me reoreintate how I think about the themes in the work.
You have one of my favorite booktube channels and I hope you always feel welcome and valued in discussing your thoughts and critiques on these types of stories.
Thank you, Andrew! Completely understandable to gravitate to those types of books and discussions. It means a lot to me that you find value in my channel!
You handled this topic beautifully and honestly here, Johanna - much appreciated. As a fellow fan of epic fantasy, I value perspectives from people with backgrounds different from mine because I feel I have so much to learn from them. That is just one reason I’m so glad I know you!
You have no idea how much your kindness and respect have meant to me (and I'm sure to many others) regarding this topic on BookTube! I've been thinking about that a lot over the last few months. Thank you, Philip!
Do not feel isolated, people are allowed to like what they like, and within reason no one should judge them or make assumptions based on that.
Thank you!
Great video Johanna!
I agree with you that it's perfectly fine for books to have a targeted audience. The more important issue is that the industry continues to include a wider variety of authors in epic fantasy and sci-fi. I want to believe this is already happening, but I don't have any statistics or proof to support that. The more voices that enter the space, the better.
This topic is interesting because, in my experience, reading seems to be more female-dominated outside of Booktube. I have maybe two male friends outside of BookTube who read. Whenever I mention reading to my male friends, they look at me like I'm crazy and say they haven't read a book since high school. In contrast, most of my female friends read at least a few books a year, if not more.
I wonder if Booktube in general just has a higher male audience because TH-cam does in general? I'm not sure that's actually true but its a theory.
And your voice does matter! Getting to hear about books from multiple different perspectives is what makes Booktube so awesome! Once again this is an awesome video!
Thank you, Tom! I've read that statistically more females read than males, so I can understand how you see that reflected in your real life. There are places where female BookTubers are the majority, but those are places less focused on adult sci-fi and epic fantasy. Speaking to your point, it would be interesting to learn the gender breakdown of book viewers on TikTok or Istagram vs. TH-cam. Cheers to everything you said about different perspectives!
First off, as someone who grew up on a lot of female authors in Sci-Fi and Fantasy (Tanith Lee, C.L. Moore, C.J. Cherryh, Marion Zimmer-Bradley, Ursula K. LeGuin, Anne Rice and others) as well as historical novels (Gillian Bradshaw, Diana L. Paxson), it was very surprising to me to later learn about those genres being thought of as male-dominated. And I'm here because I like the knowledgeable, informative way you talk about books, and would never even had the idea to ignore your perspective based on you being a woman.
As far as the question of the video goes, I'd say yes it is. Though I think that sometimes, there's too much importance put on these things, everyone puts labels on everything and that can lead to wrong impressions about who the target group of a novel is, and worst case, make people miss out on books they might have actually enjoyed otherwise. Case in point, there might be books out there, that I would have enjoyed reading but that were labeled as romantasy (which is an immediate no-go for me) when in fact they just were good stories with a bit of romance in it.
But then again, there's tons of great books out there written by a diverse cast of authors, lots of them female, lots of them PoC, lots of them members of the LGBTQ+ community, so I kinda think that I actually don't miss out on anything important just by not reading that particular genre.
That's awesome that you grew up reading from so many awesome female SFF authors! I can see how that shaped your experience in a positive way. Some of those names don't get mentioned enough and I'm sure there are plenty more like that. You’re right that there is a lot of emphasis on labels. Thank you for watching and sharing!
its interesting what you said about toll the hounds being focused on male grief because i didnt necessarily feel that way when i read it, but now that im thinking about it I see what you mean! I think with malazan specifically even the female characters seem very distant from my life, so all of the povs feel like stepping into anothers shoes. additionally, i do feel sometimes nervous to share what i read with other women because i feel like some of my favorites, like asoiaf and malazan, are not appealing to women. theres also this weird anxiety from social media that we should all read more books by women, which isnt a bad thing at all! but it can kind of make you feel ashamed if your top 3 or 5 are all by men
Thanks for validating my feelings about Toll the Hounds! I know many female fans love it, but I felt so distanced as a female reader in that particular book. Oddly, I didn't feel that way when reading Pet Sematary, which explored grief from a male protagonist. You never know where someone's opinion will land on a series, but as a female reader, I have no hesitation recommending ASOIAF (since you mentioned it) to any adult fantasy reader.
I love this conversation! I can imagine that it would feel similar for a man to enter the romance side of booktube.
I read both traditionally feminine and traditionally masculine books and I find it interesting that readers tend to focus on WHAT is done rather than HOW it is handled and what PURPOSE it holds in the wider plot (in both feminine and masculine books). I love that you addressed some of that in this video!
Thank you so much! I appreciate that inquiry!
You know what's funny, I always felt almost the opposite. I'm a guy, but most of my followers were women. It can feel isolating sometimes, but the diversity is more important and makes things better :)
Diversity is so important! Miss you here! 🤍
@@Johanna_reads miss you too 💙
I'm still so happy that you taught me what a Dudebro Book was in real time on Jordan's channel.
I had a great time chatting with you two! 😊
Such an interesting topic - I know you know Laura and I touched on this last night on her channel, and this video I actually thought about when it came up, and it reminded me to come back and finish watching. Thanks for this!
Thank you, my friend! I got so happy when you said you're opening your mind to stuff like Romantasy. I personally LOVE seeing people read outside their expected genres. :)
Ooh great conversation! I think we need to further dissect what makes a book masculine. Is it the presence of violence? Action focused vs emotions focused? Male POVS vs female POVs? Treatment of women in the book? Gender of the author? Lack of romance? Even cover art to me is incredibly masculine vs feminine to set the tone (which is why I always avoided Stormlight Archive).
Booktube overall seems to be largely female - but you’re right in the epic fantasy space is mostly male creators. My audience is 68% female viewers but that makes sense because I’m not sure if men like lifestyle vlogs as much and romantasy LOL
Excellent questions! Some female authors in adult fantasy focus on male characters, masculine cover art, and disturbing battle scenes. When they don't check certain boxes, they often run the risk of audiences calling it YA. I agree that most of BookTube---regarding other genres--is mostly female-focused. For some reason, I read in the one niche that works against me. 😅
Great Vid Johanna. I think most of BookTube creators are female, or at least most of the Booktubers I follow are women. (Shout out to Petrik!) But the women I follow aren't really ACOTAR/Romantasy fans, but "traditional" Fantasy/Sci Fiction fans. All of them sort of fit into the "cool girl" trope/concept from Girl Gone.
YT recently recommended some more "traditional female" fantasy channels - and it's like stepping into an alternate dimesion.
For the most part, they're reading a whole different branch of fantasy (the best seller/lucrative kind, less of the Hugo/Locus/WFA type). It's rare for them to covers books that you cover. That said, that side of Fantasy is more than willing to entertain "trash" (their words, not mine) than "this side" of fantasy is.
And glad to hear your take on Bakker. I found the first trilogy a very hard read, specifically because of the treatment of women. It's illustrative that Bakker was doing that to get under my skin...as opposed to appeal to the "murder hobos"/'edgelord"/"Grim Dorks". If the prose wasn't so good, I would have basically DNF"d after Serwe gets introduced. The 2nd trilogy (i'm currently reading) also has a few characters and scenes that are also tough reads. I often wonder if the typical Bakker fan doesn't notice, doesn't care.
Glad you're here on BookTube reading the books you read and I tend to read. You always have thoughtful and insightful views on the genre.
Thank you so much! Lots of love to all the female BookTubers out there focusing on modern fantasy. I feel similarly about Bakker and his prose!
Solid video and an excellent topic of discussion. I'm aware that being a cishet white male gives me a certain perspective on things which is one of the reasons I like books from different perspectives. I've read a lot of the "classic" sci-fi/fantasy books by old white men, but I make it a point to seek out books from people with a different background. Reading is a chance to see a world through someone else's eyes and these different perspectives. If a book is written with an audience in mind that I don't fit in to, I'm even more excited to read it. I want to be challenged. I want to expand my world.
One of the most formative books in my youth was The Mists of Avalon by Marion Zimmer Bradley. I was only 11 or 12 when I read it, but it blew my mind. This was the first "adult" book I had read with female protagonists. Putting aside MZB's, ah...issues (which I didn't even know about at the time), this book gave me complicated female characters and I loved it. Yes, I read books to entertain myself, but I also read them to learn, to grow, to challenge my world views.
It's amazing how many incredible female SFF writers there've been who haven't gotten as much of a spotlight as male ones. It's great that you're going out of your way to seek other voices. Thanks!
Interesting to hear these thoughts. I can't remember how I discovered your channel but it might have been when searching for R. Scott Bakker analysis. I never gave much thought to target audiences but certainly valued having a female perspective with Second Apocalypse for some of the reasons you mentioned here. Most of all I just really enjoy your perspectives on reading in general along with the handful of other Booktubers who I watch on the regular - many being friends of yours it seems. Like any art form some writing will appeal more to one gender than the other and that seems fine to me, though overly-testosterone driven anything tends to annoy me. Anyway I hope you continue feel comfortable in this space and continue enjoying challenging reads.
Thank you so much for your support! I've only heard word-of-mouth that Bakker had a male reader in mind, so that might not be factual. I also heard that after I started the series. Either way, the Second Apocalypse has been one of my most incredible reading experiences. Bakker's prose, character psychology, metaphysics, approach to theme, and immersive world building is top-tier!
Great vid, Johanna!
My most popular video on my channel is my top 10 books video, and on that video I took A LOT of heat from female viewers because of the lack of female authors on that list (seriously, judging by the comments on that video, you'd think I was Andrew Tate). Many people accused me of not reading any female authors. In fact, some of my favourite authors include Atwood, Le Guin and Didion... Hell, even some of my favourite FANTASY is written by women: Fonda Lee, Jemisin, Le Guin again.
It just so happens that when I made a list of my favourite books of all time, those specific books were written by men. Given that I'm a man, that there are specific genres I read in more (which happen to skew towards male authors), that there are certain themes that appeal to me more, and that I like being able to relate to the characters, I don't think it should be particularly surprising that my favourite books would skew towards books written by men, or books that are probably targeted to a male audience. And I honestly don't see why that's a big deal. That's just my taste. It's completely possible for me to prefer "male" fiction, but also for me to name Wild by Cheryl Strayed as my 2nd favourite book I read in 2023... both of those things are possible! Just like it would be possible for a man to prefer more "female" fiction or a woman to prefer more "male" fiction.
The only problem I see is with people who have strong opinions about what anyone else "SHOULD" be reading.
Sorry for ranting in your comments section, but as always, I appreciate your vids :)
Thank you so much for sharing your experience with this topic, Adam! I'm afraid I might be judged the same as you since most of my favorite books happen to be by male authors, largely because of the genres I read (though I am trying to read from more female authors as well). I agree with your perspective of the "should" read problem, which could be another form of gatekeeping. I'm grateful to hear your thoughts!
@@Johanna_reads Always a pleasure! Somehow, I don't think you need to worry about being judged in the same way (I won't get into why I think that is, because that'll likely turn into another rant ;), but even if you did, you really shouldn't care (although, I know from personal experience, that's easier said than done)! Happy reading, and again, thanks for a thought provoking vid!
What a great topic!
Imo, there's no problem at all with books that are geared toward people of a certain gender. People of all genders deserve to have books that capture their experiences and respond to their ways of seeing the world. I think the problem is when we lack books that target people of a specific gender.
I think it's also worth noting that gender-targeted books are necessarily based on an imagined archetype of what people of a certain gender like or experience. Also, gender is smooshy and somewhat fluid. So books only capture some people from a gender or capture some people from a different gender.
I'm non-binary and constantly aware of the fact that very few books are aimed at my gender, but there are lots of books that I enjoy nonetheless because gender is also only one aspect of enjoyment. There are lots of things with which to connect with a story.
I agree with everything you stated! Gender is fluid, and we benefit from seeing it represented in a variety of ways. Those standard archetypes can run the risk of becoming cliche or tropes. In other words, I think our reading appreciation can deepen with more complexity and exploration.
I think you bring up a fascinating topic when you mention how Bakker's depiction of women is meant to cause readers to interrogate themselves rather than feel, perhaps, just pity, indifference, or perhaps even less desirable responses than that. I find myself referring back to this all the time, but in Toni Morrison's The Bluest Eye, in the afterword, she talks about how she felt like it failed as a novel because it caused audiences to pity the main character rather than interrogate their own actions, ideologies, or ideas of how young, black women are vulnerable. Morrison didn't want their pity, she wanted their anger, she wanted to stir something beyond what is just pandering.
And I think about that *a lot* when reading, how writers treat characters, how they portray these sorts of ideas, are they just fishing for pity? A banal emotional response? Or are they trying to provoke thought, interrogation, action? And I think it's really interesting to see how different autbors will respect or disrespect their own characters and ideas in this way.
A Malazan example, I found, was that I really loved how Erikson wrote Felisin (Deadhouse Gates spoilers for anyone reading), and how she felt so respected as a character, how Erikson allowed her as a character to feel things that were perhaps unreasonable, or flawed, and discover a way out of those issues in a way that respected her agency as a female character, rather than simply pandering or trying to evoke pity from the audience.
This is a specific topic I think about a lot, and informs my own writing deeply. I even sort of started writing the novel I'm working on after being so maddened by how Hanya Yanagihara disrespected her characters in A Little Life, and how she so clearly *wanted* audiences to feel pity, and used trauma as a carrot and stick to string readers along.
But anyway. A bit off topic.
I think the idea of a gendered audience is *largely* a commercial invention, but probably not always the case. I do find it interesting that Bakker wrote for a male audience in order to sort of speak to them, as you say, in order to try and get them to interrogate themselves. That's an instance of gendered writing I can very much get behind, and doesn't feel like cheap commercial audience-baiting.
It's an interesting topic, one I haven't often thought about. As a reader of primarily literary fiction, I find audiences are almost split 50/50, my circles online are comprised of both men and women, and yes, I think Steve is definitely exaggerating with his dudebro comments, because I don't so much find it the case that only men read John Williams! But that's all anecdotal. But in the world of experimental and lit-fic, I think women are some of the sharpest minds as both authors and readers. Women in Translation month is coming up in August, you should join in and read a Woman in Translation or two. I think it would be great to bring more of that to this sphere of booktube.
Sorry for the very long very rambly comment! Great video.
I love this comment! I haven't read Toni Morrison's The Bluest Eye, but you made me want to. I agree with you about Felisin. Fantastic questions and insights!
@@Johanna_reads if you decide to read The Bluest Eye, I'd love to reread it myself and maybe we could do a discussion video about it. Morrison was such a powerful writer, I cannot recommend her enough. It's telling that she considered The Bluest Eye a failure because it shows how much she cares and grows as a writer after that. Beloved is rightfully her most critically acclaimed novel and it is just a tremendous achievement.
@@TheWorldWithintheWord If it can be scheduled a bit further out, I'm in!
@@Johanna_reads For sure, doesn't have to be soon! Any time that works for you will work for me. It's a relatively short book, too :)
@@Johanna_reads For sure, doesn't have to be soon! Any time that works for you will work for me. It's a relatively short book, too :)
Thank you for being so open and starting an interesting, yet difficult conversation 💕
I come to your channel because of your unique few on “male” epic fantasies. I’m sorry to hear you feel isolated at times, but know you’re not alone. I have mostly female viewers and often find myself also feeling isolated because I don’t love the fantasy booktube darlings. Mainly the male dominant ones. Those are the series that get the views, that are considered the “standard” of fantasy. I could go on but don’t want to leave an essay in your comments 🤭
Thank you for this great video ❤
Thank you so much, Shelle! I wish you much support reading the books you want to read! ❤️
This is interesting to think about. I guess I didn't realize how male-dominated this corner of booktube actually is, and by extension, the epic fantasy genre. I suppose if I look at my own personal experience, I only know one other woman who reads the same genre as me. But to be fair, I don't know many people in general who read fantasy. I guess that's why I've never felt unwelcome in this space as a woman. It kinda feels like all of us fantasy nerds just stick together and are welcoming of each other. Maybe I'm just naive though?
So... I didn't know Stoner was a dude bro book. Lol. Maybe I shouldn't have recommended it to my mother.😂
The Epic Fantasy corner skewing male is something I truly never gave much thought to until I started my channel. If it helps, I buddy-read Stoner with my mother, and she loved it as much as I did! 😅
Hey Johanna I just found your channel with this video and I think this is a really interesting topic. I can understand why you would feel this way - “does my voice really matter in this space” but personally while I love literary analysis/commentary in general I think it can be a bit dull hearing the same kind of dude bros prattling on about blood meridian or whatever, and I find it a lot more refreshing and interesting to hear a female perspective, or outside of gender, just a different perspective than the average dude bro (not that there’s anything wrong with guys vibing with cormac mccarthy etc as I am a guy and also love cormac McCarthy). So I would argue that not only does your voice matter, it maybe matters even more than the “typical” representative, if we acknowledge that there is such a thing, because I think diversity of opinion and perspective is generally a beneficial thing to any given culture or fandom as long as it is a respectful one. So thank you for contributing your voice! Keep up the good work
Thank you so much!
I can’t speak to the experience of being a woman in the booktube space, I’ve heard about certain kinds of comments obviously. But I do think that we just need more diverse voices in the adult SFF space. As a gay reader/creator the representation is limited in the genre and is quite stereotypical in the history of the genre similar to how female characters have been. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with someone writing a story to resonate with people from similar walks of life, but it would be nice to have more than the typical cis gendered heterosexual white male perspective. I can also relate to the sense of isolation at times because the number of openly gay booktube creators who love epic and high fantasy are extremely limited so there aren’t many who I can feel as seen by. 🤗
I am with you on all of that! I would love to see more gay representation and other voices in adult SFF. That's one of the things I valued about my time reading YA: I got much more female representation in addition to openly gay rep and voices not focused on the typical cis gendered heterosexual white male perspective. I love that you're here, Rodger!! 🧡
@@Johanna_reads I totally agree I think that’s why I still do read a fair amount of YA especially compared to most other adult SFF booltubers because it remains the best place for representation still unfortunately. And awww thank you! I’m glad we’ve met in this bookish space even if what we love in books is quite different 🤗
It would be nice, but that can happen when your talking about a niche of a niche of a niche. For now YA is the trend over adult SFF so the newer books and authors that fit more with modern sensibilities are being published there, and you are seeing a lot of them. That does mean however that if YA stops being the trend and it shifts more towards adult SFF then you will likely also see this shift. There is some limited but growing representation in adult SFF and most modern authors I can think of are generally good about their female characters, but yes the older novels that are still a majority of the novels in the genre were written at a different time and followed the trends of writing and pop culture at the time (with a perhaps bit more of a "bias"). Personally I think it's just a waiting game, it's coming but we can't expect things to change so quickly and to have content made for that change so quickly, especially when we are talking about a more niche genre
Really interesting video! I'm glad you started this conversation. You really piqued my curiosity at the beginning when you offered examples of books written with a male audience in mind. I wondered how many of them were going to be ones I'd read and considered favorites. It turned out I had read none of them, and, with the possible exception of Stoner, I have no interest in reading them. It could be that they're epic/high fantasy. I have a general aversion to most of both high fantasy and space opera, which seem too tropey and cartoonishly bombastic for me.
I read a lot of sci fi, which I do see as having a generally more male leaning readership, but I'm surprised to hear fantasy characterized the same way, because (if my Good Reads feed is any indication) it really seems to have a more female leaning readership. I'm sure my reading and viewing habits do skew more "male" (and probably more "white" and "straight") because of the gender-based socialization we're all swimming in, but a lot of what I read and watch is produced by authors and filmmakers who are women, BIPOC, and Queer because I do love stories that come from an entirely different perspective than my own. Isn't that at the core of what draws many (most?) of us to speculative fiction?
Johanna, maybe that's part of the appeal for you of reading some male-targeted stories. Finding it enjoyable sometimes to read a story from a different perspective. Or, not. Just a thought.
So true! Visiting perspectives other than our own is a highlight of speculative fiction. The type of fantasy matters as to whether it's targeted to more male readers or female readers. There is adult fantasy written by female authors, but epic adult fantasy with large fandoms is predominantly written by male authors. On the other hand, YA fantasy and romantasy (adult or not) is mostly targeted towards female readers.
Thanks for watching and sharing your thoughts!
I loved this video and there are so many thoughts I have on this topic but I'll limit myself to these.
I've been reading fantasy since the 90s and it was obvious that it was geared towards males. There were several reasons for that. Women authors were not equally represented and most books at bookshops were from male authors.
Perforce I read many male authors and loved them. Perhaps as a result I developed a preference for books targeting males.
Also traditionally I think, fantasy was a genre males tended to enjoy. I knew very few women who liked it.
I've never been a reader to take offence easily from a book. It all depends on the context. I won't stop reading because there is violence or racism or sexism. Unfortunately they are a part of life. Gratuitous violence however is another story.
Perhaps that is yet another reason I'm drawn to what some consider male targeted fantasy.
My audience is also predominantly male which I think stems from the books I discuss.
I loved hearing your thoughts on this topic! I would like to follow up sometime and talk about the history, marketing, and cultural messages that might affect these target audiences. Thank you so much for sharing your experience with reading fantasy since the 90s!
Thoughtful and wonderful as always!
Thank you, John! 🥰
Such an interesting conversation Johanna. In all honesty I haven't really examined my reading through this gendered lens before. Looking across my shelves I don't know if I would label any of my books as strictly male or female oriented. Perhaps the closest thing is Jane Austen? 😅
Growing up I had the freedom to pick up and read whatever I wanted. I didn't have a book group or book friends to engage with. So, in a way my reading experience growing up was isolated from talks about "this is a guy book or this is a girl book"
I think its a positive thing that you may not necessarily be the target audience for these books that you adore. It means that your opinions and viewpoint are fresh. Which I think is great for discussion!
What a wonderful way to grow up! Thank you for sharing your experience and for your kind words! 😊
First! Interesting topic Johanna!
Thank you!
A lot of the fantasy I've encountered make use of coming of age arcs (either through reflection of their historic basis or simply as an easy way to offer character development and growth), meaning there's generally some emphasis on the romantic tendencies of youth. I don't think adding a female pov is essential for book to have a balanced perspective, but I think a deemphasis on romance or at least more time spent developing interpersonal relationships prior to the romance goes a long way. Maybe some of this is my own bias in associating sexualization with a masculine perspective (and vice versa?), but when romances are somewhat predetermined, even if there is nothing physical or explicit ever discussed, it feels like there's an undercurrent of sexualization.
PS. I've just started LoTR for the 1st time, and imo it doesn't feel like there is a lean despite the lack of female characters in it. Would be curious to know how others feel about that though.
Interesting thoughts about sexualization in books! I'll have to give that more thought.
LoTR was my gateway into fantasy, and I never felt outside the experience as a female reader. As much as I loved the male cast, I remember a different kind of excitement anytime a female character was on the page.
What an absolutely fantastic video, and well done for starting this conversation in such an inclusive way. Thank you.
Personally I think it’s fine for literature to target different groups. Everything doesn’t have to be for everyone, and it can be frustrating when people pile onto something saying how awful it is. Usually something that is targeted towards YA girls like Twilight. Twilight doesn’t appeal to me. But that’s ok. It’s not meant to. I’m a middle aged man. It’s not for me.
I do think that your own life experience and how you come to a book can make an impact as well. The example I can think of for myself recently was a book of Harlan Ellison short stories that I read in June. My experience of that was hugely coloured by the fact that it was suggested to me by my teenage daughter. Would I still have reacted so negatively if she hadn’t read it, would I have reacted so negatively if I didn’t have daughters? Frankly I don’t know.
What a great conversation. Found you through this video and now will be adding to your number of male subscribers.
Thank you so much for your thoughts on this topic! So true that we can never remove our own life experience or situation and how it impacts us.
What a great video. I'd add my thoughts, but so much has been said already. I'd just like to agree with those that this is exactly one of the reasons your thoughts are very interesting to hear. However, more than the gender thing, I feel it is the effort you put in articulating your reading experience and thoughts on the books and these kind of topics that make it worthwhile following your channel!
Thank you so much!!
Wonderful video and a great topic for discussion.
Generally I'd say knowing who you're readers are (or likely will be) allows a writer to craft a story in such a way that it can actually chanllenge the reader, make them examine their beliefs, morals, etc. So in some cases it might mean knowing your readers are going to be predominantly a certain gender. Sure, this means you might make some readers feel like their on the outside, but I think that's ok. Not every book is going to be for every reader no matter what.
Thank you! I think that's true that authors have a sense of their target audience, and it’s interesting how that's affected by the genre choice. True that no book is going to check all the boxes for every reader.
“I really do appreciate fantasy where multiple voices are being considered.” That really resonated with me Johanna, and I feel the same way. In fact I tend to gravitate either toward books targeted to a more balanced audience, and sometimes books targeted to a female/gender neutral audience. Not romance per se, but just a more emotionally intelligent narrative.
I love that, Chas! Thank you so much for sharing that! 😊
You said: "I love books that challenge me. I love books that have interesting themes, ask interesting questions. I love books that immerse me." Same. 100 percent. If that's happening, it doesn't matter to me whether the book has more female characters than male, or more male characters than female, or if the story is geared more toward one or the other gender, or toward some other gender along the spectrum. Good writing is good writing. Good storytelling is good storytelling. To me, that's what makes reading so wonderful. Through a great book, I can experience many different kinds of people who are different than me, and learn from their story.
💯 Yes! Thank you for sharing this!
Love this video! It’s funny, a lot of times when people come over to my house and see my bookshelves, they immediately assume that they are my husband’s books because of the epic fantasy represented on them! Joke’s on them because my husband doesn’t read at all 😂
Oh wow! That's so funny and wild! 😂 Thank you for sharing that!
Well done video, with excellent insights. Many of the titles listed don’t strike me as specifically male oriented. I can see why Bakker might lean more heavily towards men. Or something like Lonesome Dove, or Malazan. Even so, when I think of laser focused male targeted books or films, I think something like Chuck P’s Fight Club (an attack on traditional masculinity-as I interpret it), or something like Dead Poet Society. I view both of these not only as heavily targeted towards men, but as male inspiration narratives. Perhaps I’m wrong, but men don’t have THAT many such books or movies. Both Fight Club and Dead Poet Society say something about what it’s like to be a man, or how one ought to be a man (one can leave value judgments aside). Bakker, Erikson, etc don’t tell men how to interface with the world in a healthy way. I think the distinction I’d draw is: a narrative that leans toward men, and one that is tailor made for men. If this makes sense? Hopefully I didn’t drone on too much lol.
I completely agree about Fight Club, book and movie! I wouldn’t necessarily think about it at all except that I’ve noticed the fandoms for many of the books I’ve mentioned more heavily include male readers. Thanks!
@@Johanna_reads you did a great job discussing the topic. And I love your videos, btw. You def deserve more viewers. This was especially interesting to me, since I think my world would tend to draw a more male audience, but I’ve gotten positive reception from folks across the gender spectrum. Keep up the good work.
@@sebastianvicewriter thank you! ❤
This is a really compelling topic. I hope that a lot of the commenters below would come to the Fireside to have a bigger discussion. Until then, I'm going to read through the comments here!
There are excellent comments here! I didn't bring up marketing, which is something tied to this topic but also part of a much larger discussion.
Malazan is dude bro?
My philosophy about reading is read what you want. But I also follow Stephen King's advice which is to read voraciously and to read widely. When I hear about 'dudebro' or 'red flag' books, it often just pisses me off. So should that mean that I should read books that agree with my values and beliefs? No.
Anyway, I don't want to rant too long on that, this was a good video.
Thank you, Britton! Stephen King offers some of the best advice.
Perhaps we need a poll across booktubers. My analytics show a mostly male audience too.
It depends on the books you focus on. YA and Romance channels, for example, have mostly female authors and audiences. Thanks!
Excellent questions raised, Johanna. You've got me thinking so much. It's such a hard topic to articulate, and there's so much history, sexism, personal preference, etc etc wrapped up in it. What a great topic.
Question raising was the goal! Thank you so much! ❤️
I'm glad you made this video! I think it's certainly possible that gender targeting happens at the author-level, but I wouldn't be surprised if BookTok has a wider female audience than BookTube. I haven't done any homework on it, but as far as demographics of your subscribers, for some reason I just think TikTok pulls in more of the female demographic. No research to back it up though, just a top of the head thought. I'm not saying more SFF readers are men because Janny let me have it last time :)
That's a really good point about BookTok! BookTube started out very much the same, but it's exploded into so many different sections. Janny certainly knows about all the female authors! Haha!
Lot of good thoughts! I am a guy who likes to read romance novels, so I have a lot of sympathy for you. Though I am a bit less sanguine about the change in genres - I feel growth is good, audience shuffling is not, because excluding the old audience isn't really more inclusive to me.
That's cool that you read romance! I read romance occasionally, but it’s not my go-to genre. I’m not sure exactly what you mean about excluding older audiences. Thanks!
@@Johanna_reads Well, there's a movement in a lot of historically focused genres - superhero comics, epic fantasy, etc - to shift the energy and marketing of the genre in ways that specifically appeal to female audiences to the general exclusion of most male readers. At least, that's my read on the situation.
@@millernumber1 thanks for sharing! I know nothing about comics. I haven’t seen a shortage of books appealing to male readers in fantasy, but I am seeing authors who write books that could appeal to both men and women: Joe Abercrombie, Mark Lawrence, Janny Wurts, Tad Williams, Brandon Sanderson, John Gwynn, Daniel Abraham, Adrian Tchaikovsky, Guy Gavriel Kay, Simon Jimenez, and those are just a few authors that immediately come to mind.
Hearing the different perspective and views that people have is something I enjoy. When someone say "oh this was my favorite part or this bit just hit me in a certain way" helps me pick up on parts of a book I might not have noticed or thought about as I was reading.
That has to be one of the most fun parts about hearing other perspectives on a book!
No problem at all reading 'across gender'. I can dude bro with the best of readers, but mid-century women writers is one of my favorite categories.
Nice! I need to read from those mid-century women writers!
Great video Johanna. I’ve read alot of books that are probably considered male targeted but never thought about how it might impact my connection to them. I’d love to see a deeper dive into this topic through a panel or livestream.
Thank you, Molly! I will consider this!
What a fascinating topic that I simply had not considered before! You do frequently find these more ‘off piste’ topics on your channel, or at least compared to the other channels I watch. This sort of discussion is great, very eye-opening, and gives me pause to consider my own reading choices.
I’m a dude, my YT subscription list is around 50:50 M:F, ish, but I do have stats in The StoryGraph showing how many book hauls each channel I subscribe to has influenced. Thus for me the book interest overlap is a big driver in sticking around.
I’ve got quite a few channels with a SciFi focus - e.g. Secret Sauce of Storycraft, Sound & Fury, The Shades of Orange - so maybe it’s down to the circle of channels you swim in. Many of your BookTube pals are channels I too will follow, while Secret Sauce and Shades of Orange are friends and mention each other frequently. So I dive into one, then swim amongst the others when I chase a connection.
I don’t think I tend to notice the gender targeting in the books I read, but when I do it can push me away from the book. I can think of a few that make me cringe as their memory surfaces in my head right now. But I’m also not sure what makes masculine books. My current read featured a gang performing a train heist - five females and one bloke in the crew. I guess I like reading books with a diverse variety of characters, as with real life where I enjoy a bit of diversity there too.
It does sound like you enjoy books and channels with diverse representation! I love that. Whitney from Secret Sauce of Storycraft is a good friend of mine. Although our channels are in different corners of BookTube, we both share largely male audiences. She's amazing with sci-fi recommendations!
I tend to read a mix of fantasy in terms of authors in gender, ethnicity, etc. but I do have some things that will turn me off a book. For example, if an author (generally male) knowingly or unknowingly objectifies most/all of their female characters or they are caricatures/stereotypes I don't want to bother with the book. The same goes if authors (generally female) do the same for the majority of their male characters - which is more often when there's a heavy romance side plot. These portrayals feel unbalanced/dehumanizing to me so it gets on my nerves. But I think in general what are 'turn offs' in a story will differ for each person. I work in a 'male dominated' field and experience a lot of stereotypes, etc., so my tolerance for that kind of thing in my leisure time is very low.
That makes sense! Thank you for sharing your perspective!
This was an interesting and thought-provoking video. I would agree that it's okay for books to have a gendered target audience, but I would also add that I believe most of these books probably aren't consciously targeted towards male readers by the author. Maybe they're in a historically male-dominant genre or something or maybe the content happens to appeal to men more often; there could be a lot of reasons that their audience is predominately male, but I think that generally the author was just writing what they wanted to write (which I guess doesn't necessarily mean, on a technical level, that the book isn't targeted towards a male audience, I just think usually it just isn't done consciously). I would believe Second Apocalypse is an exception; I haven't read it. I'm just making a general statement that not meant to be applied to everything on an individual basis. Of course I don't mean to misrepresent your argument by saying you mean the opposite, I'm just trying to add my thoughts.
Hey, I wonder if this video's audience was mostly male...
You're adding great questions I've been wondering about since posting this video! Thank you so much!
I think good writing transcends a target audience. One of my favorite books is “A Tree Grows in Brooklyn “. It is definitely targeted at women, but beautifully written and I recommend it to anyone. You should read what makes you happy.
Having said that genre writing has come a long way. Female authors don’t have to use their initials or a pseudonym to hide their gender anymore.
Thank you! I agree with this!
Ha, ha, assassin elves seem to also be clairvoyant because today I posed -- on a very different platform and in a very different context -- the question if we need all female spaces on BookTube. My answer is no and that's what most others said. But we also acknowledged that female booktubers can sometimes be marginalised or even silenced. So I agree when you say that there aren't many of us in this particular corner of BookTube. And yep, that can sometimes be a bit lonely.
Are books for a gendered target audience ok. I don't see why not. Nor do I see a problem with reading books that are for a target audience that's not my own. After all, we as humans have the capacity to imagine us in loads of different scenarios and lives.The problem starts when we attach value judgements to certain categories. Because as Gloria Steinem says "we are all linked, but we are not ranked"!
Thanks for the video, Johanna, and all the best!
Wow, we really are on the wavelength today! 😯 I love and agree with everything you shared here. Excellent Steinem quote! Thank you so much, Angela!
Authorial intent and reader/audience experience are two different but (can be) overlapping things. Whether you are talking about authorial or character depiction, there is a fine line between male perspective and male gaze, but it tends to get conflated. I do find it interesting, and saddening, that often there seems to be this (over-generalized!) hierarchy where male authors writing male characters with male audiences in mind is at the top and female authors writing a female character for female audiences is the bottom.
Tangentially related, as adults we tend to read particularly YA and middle grade books with the adult-mindset--those books are not written for adult readers so expectation of those books to satisfy aspects, tropes, themes usually found in adult-oriented texts is unfair.
I agree with you on all points! Thanks for watching, Evie! I value your friendship here. 💜
Personally, I think that your perspective as someone who is not deemed 'the target audience' is the exact reason why your voice is so essential and important. There is a freshness and nuance to your perspective that can illuminate new thoughts or opinions to 'the target audience' audience. Secondly, I do believe that an author writing with a target audience that is specifically gendered can be dangerous because, once again, I think to reach a level of nuance within a work, it has to take into the full spectrum of human experience, even if it is focusing on certain experiences that lend themselves to be gendered, e.g. your example of ASOIAF. I honestly have felt the same as you do with epic fantasy's male leaning stance when I read a romance book, or lit-fic from a female author, but the latter is something I especially love. Once again, I believe that my voice provides a different perspective and I ended up writing my dissertation critiquing neoliberal feminism. Just keeping do you, because you're awesome!
Thank you, Ben! I always love and value your unique perspectives! 💜
You are one of the best on booktube and you have excellent taste. You should be allowed to talk about any books that you want to and enjoy any type of books that you want to regardless of your gender. I'm not sure why it wouldn't be ok for books to have specific targets.
That's very kind of you! Thank you!
Really interesting discussion! This is something I don't find myself thinking about a whole lot, but I do definitely think some series are targeted at one gender or another and I think that's okay ultimately, but funnily enough I actually find myself particualry drawn to so many female authors and not enjoying some of the more "dudebro" books/series so some extent, so end up in kind of the opposite space as you!
I love that you read from so many female authors and don't think twice about it! Some of the female adult SFF authors tend to focus on male characters, but I'm grateful that their voices are heard!
Such an interesting conversation! I honestly think that you should never second-guess the validity of your experience or review of a book purely because of your gender. If anything, I think it is highly valuable to hear a woman's takes on books that are largely read/reviewed by male audiences, and especially when it is someone as mindful and insightful as you giving the review! 🥰
I honestly don't think there is anything wrong with gender targeted books, so long as the author is being respectful of everyone's experiences. Loved thinking about this, it's not a topic that I had given much consideration to before! ☺
Thank you so much, Esmay! I honor your voice as an excellent reviewer and friend! ❤️
You're very eloquent for a dudebro, lol. I would never have thought that authors target gender in their works. I guess I just assumed that the author would just write their story and have characters and character POV based on thoughts/experience/research and let the chips fall where they may. Good topic and conversation starter, I wonder if there's a deeper discussion here with other booktubers like Merphy/Allen/Jimmy/Philip/etc. Sort of get both genders and thoughts on that targeting. Thanks for the video :)
Thanks for the compliment and suggestion! I would assume the same about authors. That's what I would do, but I'm not an author. Happy reading!
Great video, Johanna.
Should books have a gendered audience? I also don't know, i don't see it as an automatic problem but it could easily become one. Authorial intent matters but can only go so far. But you could say a target audience in mind is necessary for marketing reasons.
Some books might hit harder or resonate more if you come from a certain place or point in life, depending on or regardless of gender. Lets take Tigana for example, it seems to resonate more for people who come from countries and cultures that have historically been oppressed or are part of discrimated groups. Of course I'm not saying having that background is necessary to appreciate or love a book but just something that may factor in.
I've always been of the opinion that a casual reader should read whatever they want when they want (life is short, and we only get one (if you ask me)). I scoff at the idea you *have* to read something unless maybe its for academic purposes. Though I acknowledge I'm coming from a place of privilege as a straight white dude.
Depiction equaling endorsement is something I've seen too many people are comfortable with when discussing and critiquing art.
That's interesting, I didn't notice Toll the Hounds being particularly gendered but you've a point, it does skew heavily for male povs but for me that book was more about second chances, grief and ageing than specifically about being male.
I would like to add to your comments regarding Bakker and challenging male (especially straight white males) reader expectations, despite what the fan art would lead you to believe, many of the characters (including Achamiam, Esmenet, Mimara, Proyas etc) are people of colour.
Your voice absolutely matters, Johanna, and don't let anybody tell you otherwise. You've valuable insights and a chill vibe, we also have similar taste. Personally, my absolute favourite booktubers heavily skews towards women than men.
Sorry I'm rambling 😅
Thank you so much for your perspective on this topic and kind words! The marketing part of the equation is huge, so thank you for bringing that up. Loved hearing your thoughts here about Bakker and Tigana. Happy reading!
For the most part I feel literature generally is really behind the times, especially fantasy. It's a sorta Dante "Divine Comedy" thing: literary-wise a lot of these books do justice, but on a greater academic level and where we are now (and extensively where we're going) I feel literature is ultimately behind. Heck, even most literary studies and academics like philosophy are falling behind as well. I've yet to read something that is truly looking toward the future in any of these departments. And maybe it's true there's nothing new under the sun, but that strikes me as an easy way out.
Interesting perspective! Even if there's nothing-new-under-the-sun, there's room for development.
You aren’t the target audience for Bakker, but that’s why I watch your channel in the first place. I think target audiences are good. That’s what makes unique reader voices standout in the first place.
I’ve always been on the outside looking in, in general, so I guess fitting in has never been my priority. I will never resonate with characters like Catelyn, yet she’s still one of my favorites precisely because she’s something that I probably won’t ever understand on an emotional level.
I’m a writer, so this might be part of the reason for my approach.
Thank you! I appreciate your approach!
I love Malazan etc. as a woman I found that I seem to appreciate a little bit of different aspect than male readers. And that’s fine.
@@tainakauppinen9878 It’s an incredible series that can be appreciated in a multitude of ways. :)
@@Johanna_reads Yes, it is. 😊 Although I must say, Heta’s fate was a hard read. It was brutal.
@@tainakauppinen9878 Yes! SO hard to read!
This video made me subscribe!
Thank you so much! ❤️
I think people resonate with people have have the sane interests. It is true that you are one of the 3 or 4 female booktubers I am subscribed to, but that is because it is clear that you speak the same language. Some booktubers, male OR female, just clearly have a different perspecive on things and sometimes the natural way that divides is through gender. Hope the best for Sarah J Maas fans, but it just isnt my cup Dr. Pepper. For authors, i am not sure if most have a target gender in mind as much as they are trying to write something they themselves find compelling. I think it is ok either way. I like good characters without feeling like i am being pandered to or lectured too much. Sometimes that happens too.
Thank you for weighing in, Dan! I appreciate hearing your thoughts about this!
Good to know what you mean with the term dude bro. It made me think more about these women hating men like Jordan peterson. I'm from a non English country, so I might have been the only one not having the right idea about is. I'm happy you're on TH-cam. I like epic fantasy and (older) sci fi so I follow lots of male TH-camrs. I mostly don't mind reading books with some misogyny in it. But I dislike it when a TH-camr recommends a book and doesn't say anything about that. So I would say, just tell us.
Thank you! I appreciate your comment!
I echo what others have said, good writing is good writing but on the topic of target demographic, its a must. Just as you said a lot of epic fantasy is male oriented because of darker themes and elements of world building that make something complex. Who would be interested mostly in that generally? Mostly men for a lot of series, like the Witcher and ASOIAF are good examples. Its wouldn't make sense to market the target demographic to a group that has zero interest in that genre or specific series. A popular example is 50 Shades of Grey, that marketed to women specifically because of the romance and perspective of the book. As a man, I have zero interest in that. So when talking about demographic I think a distinction needs to be made. Good writing appeals to certain demographic not necessarily for specific demographic. Appealing to a demographic means just writing the story you want to write andsee who it appeals to, not pandering to a specific demographic even though both have examples of books that have been written in both way. Id say the first is better for authenticity and better overall writing but your writing when you pander becomes to overly centered on the target they are directly writing around deliberately. We see this in movies and other media, how quality is sacrificed for pandering even to the betrayal and detriment of your original demographic. But overall, demographic targeting cant be moved away from, someone has to read your book, and the best group is the demographic your writing appeals to, which for epic fantasy is male mostly. I wouldnt change any of that to appeal to a foreign uninterested demographic or you risk the quality of your writing because said foreign demographic might not like said subject, so it gets watered down and risks becoming androgynous just to appeal to some else at the expense of your core demographic. But I think mostly the two genders have shown to be interested as a whole in very different topics and styles. Not sayong theres no overlap, your evidence that there is but that overlap, will mostly remain a minority due to differing interests.
The marketing part of this topic is something I failed to cover, but it's also part of a much larger discussion. While marketing trends might "suggest" that most men but not women enjoy darker themes and complex world-building, that's a stereotype I can't buy into.
I remember the first time i notice something like this... i as reading "the hunger games" because my girlfriend at the time told me, and it was weird, i felt all the men in that book were strange for some reason, then i find out the autor was a women and it click on me...
Can women guess if the author is a man because they notice strange things that only women could notice in dialogue and behavior?. Because I think I notice when I try to read "romance", because most of the men in those books feel "false" or in my mind I always have something like "who would say/do something like that", I have always felt strange in that type of literature.
I have heard that about some romance books, but I think it depends on the author. Robin Hobb, for example, wrote a male protagonist that is a favorite character of many of my male fantasy fan friends. Same with the main male protagonist in Janny Wurts’s Wars of Light and Shadow. Thanks for watching and sharing your thoughts!
With The Hunger Games specifically, I think some of that can be chalked up to Katniss being ... not an unreliable narrator, but a narrator who doesn't understand the other characters that well. We see all the male characters from Katniss's POV, and it's a plot point that Katniss is terrible at reading people (makes out with Peeta multiple times, still doesn't realize the dude's falling in love - is the only one to miss the obvious hints in the second book that the tributes are planning a rebellion).
It’s interesting to me, because I feel like book focused social media and book clubs are dominated by women. I am fine with this, because books are for everyone. That said, I can see how some genres lean toward a specific gender, and I have made an effort to broaden the authors I read in this and other dimensions.
I've read that's true statistically. I love the effort to read more broadly. Thanks!
Interesting perspective. For some reason, I assumed Fantasy had a large female audience. On the other hand, my channel's gender breakdown is 90+% male... That # is consistent with other SF channels I discussed this with.
It does in YA fantasy and Romantasy. I'm just speaking from my analytics though. Comparison channels (that my viewers watch) are always other male fantasy BookTubers with much bigger followings. Sci-fi is probably more predominantly male, so that breakdown of your viewers doesn't surprise me. Proud to be one of the 9%!
@@Johanna_reads Got it. I was not aware of the distinction. It does make sense. My daughter just read a Sarah J. Maas novel.
@@bartsbookspace Sarah J. Maas has a huge appeal among young adult and adult women. Unfortunately, the two Maas books I've read did not work for me, but I have epic fantasy-loving friends who love her books!
@@Johanna_reads She is certainly popular. lol At my local Barnes & Noble she has a whole , large, section dedicated to her.
Perhaps a case of Business trumps Art.
Growing up as the only child of my father, a lot of the media I consumed was male targeted. For example, I remember as a child watching Star Trek the next generation together. At times it made me feel like growing up that I couldn’t relate to the girls my age.
But on the other hand, I would be interested how many males are interested in media made for women.
There is another bias of men considering media made for women as lesser. Which, I don’t really think is fair.
I hope everyone likes what they like regardless if they are the intended audience
I love this comment! I might need to follow up about this in a separate video, but I LOVE when I see male readers who are open-minded about books targeted towards women. Criminolly and Bookish (who were in one of my recent "Why Read?" episodes on BookTube) have videos in which did this. There are also a few male BookTubers who've fearlessly read and praised books by Sarah J. Mass, like The Book Guy and Ian Gubeli. I love to see it!
@@Johanna_reads Thanks for the information. I think I will watch those videos.
Also, I think it would be great if you did a follow up!
This comment and video is interesting to think about. I too got alot of my book/other media taste from my dad/brothers growing up. As an adult I tend to gravitate to other women with similar tastes but books are pretty tough. I know very few women that read sci-fi and high fantasy.
It is ok in my opinion to write for a targeted audience. My personal issues arise when it comes at the cost of being misogynistic, racist, ageist, etc.
Yes, indeed!!! Thank you!
I think it's fine for books to have specific target audiences if it scratches that group's itch. Are there going to be people outside that group who read something and don't get the full experience? Absolutely. In the same way that all the popular older fantasy's been written with the assumption it's men reading (trust me, there's plenty older fantasy stuff NOT making that assumption), there are genres out there written with the assumption it's a woman that's going to read the book. But I do think as of a decade plus ago inclusivity became a major ask in fantasy, so newer books are much more cognizant of this.
It certainly has been changing over the last decade. It helped when authors like GRRM, Hobb, N.K. Jeminsin, Wurts, and Erikson proved it possible since the 90s.
@@Johanna_reads Yea, they definitely paved the way. Also people like Anne McCaffrey (Pern), Ursula K. Le Guin (Earthsea), Marion Zimmer Bradley (Avalon - though she's taboo now), Margaret Weis w/ Tracy Hickman, Mercedes Lackey . . . a lot, lol.
But RE: being a woman that reads Dude Bro fantasy, there definitely aren't many content creators like you but I guess at least the community's welcoming? I've come across the occasional video in the past where guys who read YA and tried to do Booktube in that sphere talk about the vitriol and hatred that get sent their way simply because of their gender. It can't be easy but at least it's not actively hostile (I hope!).
@@OnlyTheBestFantasyNovels I've been very fortunate. That's crazy about guys reading YA! I've long loved Jesse the Reader and Gavin Reads It All (though Gavin truly reads it all now 😄).
I'll be honest, it's in part because you're a female voice speaking about Bakker and darker, more thoughtful Fantasy that I'm especially interested in what you have to say about it. It's a perspective that I don't get to see too much, especially of someone who enjoys the books as much as you and I do. I've seen a couple female reviewers try Bakker and bounce off the series, so i'm glad your enjoyment of 2nd Apocalypse kind of proves that the series isn't just for men, or that the series is anti-woman(which I definitely disagree with)
Thank you so much!!
This is a very interesting topic and a great video. I'm enjoying all the discussion in the comments as well! Growing up, I definitely felt "not like other girls" when it came to my enjoyment of SFF, but some of my deepest and longest friendships have been from the few other girls that also read the "boy" books and played the video games all the boys were playing. However, I did sometimes feel lonely or like I was "doing it wrong." It actually made me spiteful towards many traditionally feminine things in a way I didn't realize until my mid-20s. Now I still enjoy my more dark, in-depth, thematic SFF but also like a good cozy read every now and then!
I think it could also be interesting to delve into modern adaptations and how they often have a different target audience than the original text and if that's okay or not. Is it possible to keep the spirit of the original work without maintaining the same target audience?
Thank you for sharing about your experience with this topic! Sounds like we've shared the experience of feeling a little isolated with our preferred genres. I hope you no longer ever feel like you're "doing it wrong" and continue finding that balance. I need some cozy reads now and then too! :)
As for your question, I think several modern adaptations are taking that into account. It's possible and a great thing! :)
Excellent topic Johanna. I think the definition of gender or what is defined as gender rolls has changed significantly in past 40 years and continues to do so. I believe the line between what women are suppose to like as opposed to men is fading and will soon be non existent, maybe not in our life time but in the near/distant future. Unfortunately We as group tend to reinvigorate these gender lines when we label books such as "Hot Girl Summer Books" or "Dude Bro Books". This is such an interesting topic that I could talk about at length but I need to brush up on my Sociology before I start making claims. lol. Excellent video Johanna.
I do not believe this. Men and women are inherently different, while our roles in society can change, it doesnt change what we fundamentally crave or how we experience life.
@MrEvldreamr Im just curious and in no way saying Im right or your wrong, but what makes men and women so different? What are women "supposed" to fundamentally crave that men are not?
Thank you, Dan! I agree with you. What we consider gender roles is changing. There's always more to learn and understand about identity construction and what influences our preferences.
There's a saying, "If you try to please everyone, you end up pleasing no one." For example, not everyone wants to have a big romance, and that audience will probably turn away from books with a heavy romance element. This does not make the book bad or that particular audience heartless for not liking romance.
Some authors (sometimes a few publishers) believe that if they throw everything and the kitchen sink into a work to say "there's something for everyone" that book will have universal appeal. More likely, each audience/demographic will find something unnecessary to the story and be turned away.
Authors, you can create what you like then examine it to see who to properly market it towards. However, some audiences are A) not as large as others which will limit the number of prospective customers, or B) just don't read as much as some other groups like males tend to be more visual and gravitate towards media that can be seen. Perhaps this is why Romance is probably the best-selling and most profitable in genre fiction?
I think authors and publishers should go into any creative project understanding the analytics in order to have reasonable expectations. That's lost on some creative types, and they end up marketing their work inappropriately towards the wrong people.
There is nothing wrong with writing towards a specific audience if you understand that audience. As a matter of fact, an author can become quite commercially successful if employing an almost formulaic approach, like Louis La'Mour with his westerns. And being prolific didn't hurt either.
Authors, focus on writing the best story possible, and figure to whom to market it towards afterward. If you notice your work attracting a certain audience, you could leverage that knowledge to strategically market your book to gain more of that audience yet still maintain realistic expectations.
Interesting points! I'm continuing to wonder about author intent and the massive role marketing plays with this topic. I would think authors would be in favor of writing first and figuring out the specific audience afterwards, but some might be intentionally focused.
@Johanna_reads I agree. I too think most writers want to write first and figure the audience out afterward. However, some writers are "write for hire". Ghost writers or movie novelization authors come to mind, authors specifically hired to write a particular story for a specific client/audience. I also think writing for specific audiences was more prevelant during the Golden era of mass market paperbacks (1960s-1980s). There are also authors who believe they must crank out books in order to be a full-time writer. Otherwise, they believe they won't earn enough money to live on. I can see these authors gravitating towards writing for a certain audience if that secures the steady paycheck. And once they have a specific fan base, there's a tendency to try to please them in order for them to buy the next book.
Now I want to see your top 10 dude-bro books.
That's a great video idea! Thanks! 😂
Well, if it wasn't okay for books to have a gendered target audience then what happens to the romance genre? We shouldn't begrudge books meant for people other than ourselves, and we should read whatever the hell we feel like, markets, the internet, and peers be damned. Also, it wouldn't hurt any of us to try something outside our comfort zones once in a while (or not, it's not that big a deal).
I like your stance to read outside outside your comfort zone or not. Haha!
Dude. Bro. Great video.
Thank you! :)
Of course it's okay. How boring would the world be if everyone enjoyed the same kind of books. Let's celebrate our differences
Indeed! Thanks!
Interesting conversation in light of a recent article on Dazed (July 22) about how men don't read anymore, especially novels. The headline says that the ones who do are gay! It's unbelievably stupid. There have been a few booktubers who have taken up the discussion and pointed out the obvious flaws in the article's arguments. I would link the article directly but YT doesn't like that!
I saw that there was an article by that title, and it sounded so stupid, that I've completely avoided it. 😆
No problem with having a targeted audience of whatever catagory you chose. This can be because the author is trying to confront the reader or to entertain an audience. Now how marketing and publishing targets a demographic is another issue.
An interesting topic for discussion might be comparing how male/female authors write female/male characters or straight writing gay and vice versa.
Using Bakker as an example, and to some extent Erickson, his writing confronts the reader in a very graphic and often unsubtle way. The violence isn't voyeuristic or glorified. You are supposed to be repulsed of what the characters do and perhaps see a reflection in society today. Two characters from Liveships also come to mind.
I also can't say they are entertaining. It is a strange feeling to love a book you don't like reading at times if that makes sense. I often use Schindler's List as an example.
And as you are finding out in Second Apocalypse, the female arcs are often the most interesting.
I also didn't connect with a lot Toll, either time I read it. Perhaps I just don't have the personal experiences to identify with it.
All excellent points! Thanks for sharing, Eric! I expect I'll probably not feel differently about Toll the Hounds upon reread, which is totally fine. I think it's okay not to have the experiences to identify with a book if it resonates for so many others.
Have you read Ninth Rain (Jen Williams) and/or Godkiller (Hannah Kaner). These are books that were recomended to me by women as their favourite. I couldn't get into them at all. Noticing now that they were written by ladies, maybe the tide goes both ways, and thats ok.
I haven't, but I have BookTube friends who read these books and were not impressed. It made me less interested. 😅
@@Johanna_reads Ninth Rain was an absolute blast to read through, and there's a reason why two of the three books won the British Fantasy awards (and deservedly , so). It also kinda relates to the topic in that it is written by a female author, has several female (and male) protagonists, diverse relationships and still it is undoubtedly very epic in nature, even with the setting being a mix of sci-fi and fantasy. Exactly what you would be looking for in a book that can appeal to everyone and is NOT gendered.
I usually actively don't care about the gender the book is targeted toward. I am sorta non-binary, so...
Nice to be flexible. I'd personally love more non-binary representation in the books I read! Thanks!
I expect that most authors write the books they want to write rather than to target a particular type of reader.
But publishers absolutely market books towards certain people. It’s just what they think will make them the most money.
It’s so transparent how some books are marketed, jumping on trends, trying to present it as ‘like this other book’
So true! Marketing is a huge part of this.
Please! This recent trend of gendering books has been really bothering me lately. As someone who has been a part of the literary community for many years, I have noticed this phenomenon especially since the rise in popularity of Forth Wing. I am curious to know if writers intentionally write their books with the intention of targeting only male or teen girl readers, or if their goal is to share their stories with a diverse audience and gain popularity?
Recently, an individual sought a book recommendation for a 13-year-old male. This request raises questions regarding the basis for assuming the child's gender and interests. It is unclear how the parent determined that the child would prefer books involving magic and war or those promoting love and compassion.
In addition, I appreciate your contributions as a female booktuber whose reading preferences closely align with my own. As a fellow female reader, I have consistently followed your recommendations and added books to my reading list based on your suggestions, as I have found that our tastes are remarkably similar.
I'm curious about the author question as well! I assume many writers think about themselves as readers and write according to their own gender identity, but I think some actively think beyond that. Thank you so much!!
Oh my gosh, Johanna, I love this video so much. Glad someone is talking about it!
I think it's natural for a book to have a target audience in mind. I think this idea is two fold:
1. Target audience of the author
2. Target audience of the publisher
Sure, sometimes those two will align, but sometimes it won't. After all, the publisher's main goal is to make money and authorial intent doesn't trump that. On an ethical level, I don't think that books should be as "boy books" or "girl books" or whatever (I really dislike the label of "women's fiction"... like what is that? why is there a need for a qualifier?). However, on a marketing level, I understand that creating this divide helps create focus groups of consumers more likely to buy a specific product, rather than throwing the product out into the world and hoping any random person will find it interesting enough to buy. As for authosr, I think it's only natural that they write to (at least inadvertently) to a certain intended reader. When people whose taste I don't know too well ask me for reading recommendations, I get quite nervous to be honest. This is because I truly believe that with books its all about finding the right reader, and it's ok if a book doesn't work for you because you weren't the intended audience. (A good example of this for me is Hitchhikers Guide which I thought was "ok/nothing special" because I just wasn't the intended audience since I don't enjoy that style of comedy). Of course this raises the question of should we only read for enjoyment? Books that we are certain will satisfy our proclivities? Or should we strive to read books, as well, that we know going in will be not in the 4.5-5star range, but that have other benefits (historical relevance, new writing style, conflicting ideology, etc)? Food for thought.
About us 🎀girlies 🎀 being in a male dominated area of booktube (I concur with you about this!), I liked your insights too. Personally, my experience has mostly been positive as well! Sure I get some weird s3xual comments about me and if a certain subset of people don't agree with me, they'll probably refer to me being "too young" and a woman. However, I think that this is also something we can use to our advantage because we are filling a niche perspective! Before I started by TH-cam channel it was so important for me to watch you, Merphy, BookBorn, Liene, Brittany, etc. Definitely helped me mitigate that same "sense of isolation". It's an honor to be a "dude bro book lover" with you haha. I can't wait to watch more of your Malazan videos when I get back to Deadhouse Gates.
Also "depiction isn't endorsement" is a sentiment I agree with 100%
Great video!
Wera, you are so awesome! I love how you distinguished the marketing side of the equation. I feel the same way about offering random recommendations. I need to know specifics about the person. By the way, I felt the same way as you about Hitchhiker's Guide!
Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts! So excited for all your future Malazan thoughts! 😊
I read a variety of genres. I think I prefer “dude bro” books a lot. But I sneak in some Christian romance in there so I can buddy read with my mom. My opinion? I think books are gender oriented for the most part.
Variety of genres is the way to go! Thanks for weighing in!
My mother was a huge science fiction fan back in the 60s and 70s. She gave me 2 Robert A. Heinlein juveniles for Christmas to get me started. I went on to read everything he wrote, along with many other SF writers. I guess I was in a minority, but I never felt it was a bad thing.
Of course, writing is a bit gendered. You write from your own experiences. But that isn't to say you can't read outside your experiences. Otherwise, how would you grow as a reader?
I only recently learned that Heinlein wrote fiction for young readers. That's neat that your mom got you into him. I love this last point!
As a man who read Toll the Hounds I felt as distanced. I believe it is the focus on such an inhuman character as Anomander and the break from the continuous plotline of the previous books do not help.
Oh wow! Thank you so much for sharing that! I struggled to feel invested in Anomander Rake as much as I felt like I was supposed to.
My fantasy section is male author dominant but when it comes to thriller and horror it's female author dominant
@@HakolBeseder09 interesting!
So, this may be a bit presumptuous, but I suspect that people who are drawn to read books "across gender lines" so to speak, are people with a higher degree of empathy; both having the desire and capacity to understand things that other people like and experience. Not that people reading within their targetted gender lack empathy, but I think you're less likely to find a male reading women's fiction and vice versa if they don't have it.
On feeling out of place: I distinctly remember the early days of World of Warcraft and rarely ever encountering another woman playing (especially in the more masculine faction), and how odd an experience it was... It can be isolating, but also feel freeing. For you, with few other women discussing these books/topics, it may mean less pressure to present them a certain way. You can just be you! (I would hope that would always be the case, but I think we all suffer from wanting to conform on some level.)
In the end though, I don't think there's ever a real reason why we like what we like. We just *do*. Maybe I like male-dominated video games because of my older brother's influence, but I also have an older sister, and we are nothing alike! Exposure helps, but it won't dictate what lights us up! Some things are more gender typical, but I think humans couldn't exist if we all were too alike--and if we never made the effort to understand each others' differences, we'd struggle more too.
I love this as a call for empathy, understanding, and celebrating uniqueness! Thank you so much!
Hi Johanna. Writers are encouraged to think about their readership when they write their books. I would find it unusual to read something where it wasn't clear who the intended audience was for the work. I read books by male and female writers. Content is important and I find some depictions highly disturbing. If the depicted actions fit the tale being told I leave it in context and move on. If the author belabors a problematic point I may DNF as I did with The Man in the High Castle by PKD (racism on display). I'm reading GoT by GRRM now and find it refreshing that Jon Snow and Dani are given equal time on the page. It makes the reading experience richer for all.
Thank you, Curt! I am certain writers thinking about their readership, even they're just thinking of themselves as the intended reader. Glad you're enjoying GoT!
I can't think of a reason why it would be bad to target a specific audience with a book. It is interesting and useful to hear a different gender speak about things that are not necessarily intended for them. I don't think it is fair to say most epic fantasy is targeted to men. Most of them at least try to appeal to women.
The subject matter and how it is written just appeal to men more than women. Whereas there are books that do not try to appeal to the other gender they double down on the appeal to one gender. Twilight is a great example of this.
I think adult fantasy is entering an age of being more diverse in audience marketing. YA fantasy got there far more quickly. Historically, fantasy and sci-fi were mostly written with male readers in mind. The genre has much to offer a wide range of readers, so I'm glad more voices are being considered!
Of course it's OK to write books with a targeted audience! How else are you supposed to write children's books or coming-of-age stories? From "Taran Wanderer" to "Are You There, God? It's Me, Margaret", describing uniquely gendered experiences can be very valuable.
Well said! I agree, but I also found this challenging as someone speaking from what might be considered a different voice than the intended gender target.
Of course they can be approached differently. Men and women are different. 🙂
Biologically speaking yes, and yet gender identity or preferences in all things can be fluid. :)
@@Johanna_reads Nah. You definitely have a right to your opinion, though. 👍
I don't have a problem with gendered target audience as people are nuanced and they'll gravitate towards one thing anyway. Much the same way that more men really like the mechanics of cars, and you see less woman(Less not all) seem interested in this sort of thing. And the same thing with makeup, more woman are into it than men. Though that last one is a polarizing example, and I realize that. Don't read too much into it. That being said, who we tell certain types of stories to, we'll change the tone or how something is portrayed based on the type of reader whom we think might like that story.
Thanks for your thoughts!
I hope what you read makes you happy.
Thanks! Same to you!
As someone who reads widely, I think one reason you may have more male readers (other then the reasons you listed) is because most female readers--read widely and therefore tend to watch content creators who read widely as well.
That could be true! More females read in general, according to some statistics.
I would say Bakker's world is brutal for everyone, not just women. So if the world is brutal as a whole, of course, it is not going to be great for women.
I agree that it's brutal towards everyone, but I think it's even more brutal towards women. It's a patriarchy, and women are made to know their place. Bakker pushes through that "glass ceiling" a little bit, as far I can tell with where I am in the series, but I would feel far safer as a man in that world than a woman.