Thanks for the discussion! I’m glad you attempted to have a lot of nuance in the discussion instead of hitting the topic without considering multiple angles. In 2024 my theories on this topic all come down to market realities and where the money is at and I’m glad you presented those options as potential realities as well
Thank you! Capitalism is certainly the number 1 factor driving everything. It also creates a weird chicken-egg situation where it's hard to determine whether the marketing is influencing audience or vice versa.
As an ex-Waterstones bookseller, I got into many discussions with parents and grandparents who would only buy their children the "appropriate" book based on the children's gender. "Ew no that sounds too girly" or "no that has a girl main character and he's a boy" was said by parents almost every single day. And the YA section in my bookstore also shrunk and got took over by manga around 2022. More teens are reading it than YA fiction around the world apparently!
I can understand being concerned about some age-appropriate content in books, but otherwise, there so much joy and wonder in exploring the shelves and picking up books that make you curious! I should read more manga! 😅
@@stephennootens916 Came here to say this. Manga is split into teen and adult audiences but all the titles get jumbled together in the same corners as YA sections all over. In my local library too! It's the same thing as my mom renting Princess Mononoke for my brother when he was 5 (back in 2000) thinking it was a Disney cartoon: the assumption that comics and animation are for children.
@thatinsufferablenerd you would think they would have smarten up since manga and anime have been showing up state side for so long. It is special funny with manga because they have ratings on the books. Thankfully my library keeps them sperated. So series like High School DxD or all of Junji Ito's works are next to the adult comics while the manga like dragon ball z or Demon Slayer is in the teen section.
@@stephennootens916 I mean, on the good side its surprisingly marure and deals actually fair, if early a bit edgy with sexual assault. like 2major character experience that too very plot or character important, so its weird. And actually a better medium to deal with it aside early edgy. Bi dependshow young, foe teenager iits, ok some maturity is probably recommanded and its, ok its pretty dark fantasy for sure, if getting less edgy. But also two major characters hace assault or one selling his body as thin that affects them. So not taking it lightly. Ok i think teenager can read surprsing mature and manga often is mixed, but also there are shounen that are literally ya for boys, but thereis the girls equivalent , but eniough are actually kinda trying both genders ok? Just yeah for girls they are more softer but they mingle a lot? And seinen is mature content. shounen and shojo ya, , but ther are really age gappng shojo. Also yeah warning manga/anime to be clear there is everything, its really a medium wit heverything, but anime and manga have , em different fanservice, and sometime em humor, but its often having that mixed with actual good female characters agency and wise, not always but often? manga and equivalents are pretty much in its own madiu wit ha lot of range. and from different cultures too serously even comics in the west are all ranges, manga way more so all genres really.
Fascinating discussion. It’s interesting that while traditionally fantasy books were geared toward men or boys; my recent experience at local bookstores is that the new fantasy bookshelves seems to be dominated by female authors or books that seemed to be marketed towards girls. These authors are getting a ton of space not just on the shelves, but also on special displays, table stands, etc. I wonder if that’s because these books are of high-quality or is there something else happening. I realize that girls tend to read more than boys. So maybe it’s just marketing to the demand.
And of course there are men throwing childish fits about the change in direction. I clicked on a video that caught my some months back and it turned out to be some middle age guy complaining about what women are doing to fantasy. I now get videos like that popping every two or three days. Luckily I think there are more man who do read who either take no notice of gender of a writer or enjoy reading works from people who have had different view of he world than them.
@ Hi. I personally have zero issue with this change. In fact, I’m a father of two girls and I’m happy about it. It’s just an observation of how marketing may or may not affect books sales. I’m curious what is driving this as I don’t read a whole lot of fantasy.
@bartsbookspace well my guess is the publishers like movie studios are chasing the trend because they view it as easy low risk money maker. Why the trend is there is another important question. My view is that the trend comes from those teenage girls who were massive readers grew up and want more adult fantasy novels for them so some of them wrote those adult novels while others happily read them.
While i wond downplay that ther a lot female authors in fantasy being decent till really good at fantasy, and even if romance it actually being good fantasy too. But ther eis also a lot mismarketing erotica now as fantasy and ya, which is , ok thats not new, women read always erotica as did men, and there are good women fantasy authors very good, alsoa lot that belong into adult are in YA? I mean "romantasy" Dunno manga personally are filling a lot too, and while manga covers literally ever possible genre and age group as medium, a lot popular is YA. shounen and shojo are basically YA . Probably better to replace than romantasy . ok why cant most romantasy jot just be in the adult isle. with berserk?
@@stephennootens916 That makes sense. On avg, girls are more likely to read than boys, and the publishing industry will print what they think will sell. But there may be more to the story. I have heard that there are significantly more women editors now than men (which is great as, for a long time, book publishing was dominated by men), and women editors gravitate toward books they want to read. It's part of a larger cultural shift we are experiencing, and much of it (in my view) is positive.
Who would've guessed, an absolutely fascinating and insightful discussion between some of the most thoughtful and well-spoken people on booktube. LOVED this! You all touched upon so many things that I had never even thought about. I really hope that the rise of social media in book marketing can help with celebrating female authors openly, that was such an interesting point! Thanks for sharing 🤩
People forget in the original 60s comics Peter Parker is written as a self-centred, mean-spirited libertarian with a strong dislike of the hippie movement and the 30s Superman is a champion of the downtrodden and working class. X-Men, literally a comic about people who are discriminated against for stuff they can't control or change about themselves. Iron Man, a weapons manufacturer regretting his contributions to murder and war. Thor, a literal god getting humbled to learn what it means to be human.
You might find Superman was Jewish which is about most of the early comic authors were Jews living in a small community in New York and how Jewish story telling techniques were used in the comics.
Thank you! You're right, I forgot about that, that is why I switched over to Marvel in the late 60's. The story's felt more real and grounded in reality (for comic books) than DC.
Excellent discussion, it's a very nuanced topic. For my own reading I am pretty similar to Jimmy, at age 11 I was reading Lord of the Rings, then transitioned into ASOIAF and Stephen King. But I also read Hunger Games and Harry Potter incessantly so I think it was a bit all over the place. I think it's definitely true that people react to scenes differently with knowledge that an author is male or female, though.
Thank you, Kyle! You might be the only person I know who enjoyed ASOIAF at such a young age. I didn't learn about it until I was much older. I appreciate your thoughts here!
This was a really interesting discussion that covered many aspects of a complex topic. I personally don't think there is anything wrong with books geared to a specific audience. I think there is a need for young readers in particular to be able to relate to characters in books. In addition, books geared towards a specific gender can also appeal to someone from the opposite gender. Reading myriad different perspectives that are not our own I believe helps broaden our viewpoint. For example, I know what the female experience is but I don't know what the male experience is or the perspective of a minority. In the past when there were fewer female fantasy authors available I would search out as many as I could find. Today however, I like to think that I am gender neutral when choosing what I read. Great discussion and I agree there are no easy answers.
Thank you, Kathi! I haven't gone out of my way to read from male vs. female authors, but I've certainly read more male written fantasy. Then again, this year I've somehow read from several more female authors, and I could recommend several of those books to any fan of the genre.
What a brilliant discussion about such an important topic. Thanks so much Joanna for hosting it! There is so much to discuss I’m not sure how much I could add in a quick comment section. But If I were to have a kind of utopia, books would be written for boys and girls, and in school everyone would read both. So in that way both genders get to learn a bit more about the world through the other’s eyes before they go out into the world. If I could extend it further I would include sexuality, race, class, caste etc etc. I know, quite the pipe dream.
Thank you, Sam! Most of us in the book community preach about books as a means to cultivate empathy. If we appreciate that benefit, why wouldn't we want to promote books with different perspectives? It's a great pipe dream!
Really appreciate this nuanced conversation. I had a thought pop up and will need to think on it more, but wanted to ask your thoughts Johanna: when YA fantasy is marketed more to women or romantasy, with less dense plot/writing style, is part of it to do with the state of society and women’s roles in it? I’m specifically thinking of how women carry the bulk of domestic and parenting labour in a marriage, as well as working a lot of the time, so they are exhausted and tend to turn to more ´light’ or ´easier’ books to read as an escape. Whereas data shows typically men have more free time and do less domestically/parenting, so their mental capacity may be higher for a denser story? They’re able to sit down and focus, as expectations on them contributing fairly are lower? Really curious about your thoughts on this, am I out to left field?
I love this question! I have a video I've been working on that seems somewhat related to this point though it's not about gender. I would love to learn about those kinds of trends. I recently listened to a podcast in which someone said that today's women are still taking on the majority of domestic responsibilities. Thank you so much!
I really loved this discussion! Even though it’s open ended, I believe it’s important to keep a dialogue going! Bookborn and Jimmy were the perfect guests for this topic, my only gripe is that the video ended! I could have listened to you all talk about it for another 2 hours at least!
When it comes to romance fantasy it makes sense when you remember that at least the major YA fantasy novels had some level of romance. Taken in thr fact that YA has been heavily dominated by girls for over a generations and you can see this new subgenre as a sign of those girls growing up and making their own space in adult fantasy.
A great discussion by three wonderful people! 🙌. I'm always trying to mix up the books I buy my nephews to include boy and girl characters. Just so they're surrounded with plenty of options. Now if they would just pick something up 😫
Definitely a thought provoking discussion. I definitely wrestle with this topic of portrayals vs endorsement. There’s some authors who portray some authors seem to be clearly signposting their beliefs in how they write (for example I think some of Stephen Kings later books are pretty unsubtle on what his personal beliefs are) vs someone like Gene Wolfe who frequently writes deeply flawed, even immoral characters and some readers have the tendency to attribute all of those attributes to Wolfe the person. Wolfe seemed to be very faithful to his wife and children and traditionally oriented when it came to sex, and yet writes some characters with very unhealthy and twisted views of sexuality. And for those who knew Wolfe personally or studied his life it seems pretty obvious that it wasn’t a reflection of his personal beliefs. So even though his characters hold certain views or behave in certain ways I’m incredibly cautious to assume that Wolfe is endorsing that, even from some of his protagonists. And obviously this applies to other authors, not just Wolfe.
Thank you! It's one thing to miss what the author was intending or have problems with it, but a deeper accusation is assuming the author is portraying themselves in their fiction. I'm very curious to read Wolfe next year (I hope)!
This is the thing RIGHT HERE. It's SO hard to separate endorsement versus just exploration, and that's a fine line that will probably be different for everyone.
Forgive the string comments as I listen. But watched Toys We Grew Up With and the severe decline in He Man sales occurred with the release of She Ra. The explanation was boys didn't want to be playing with thettoys as their sisters.
The discussion of how we all have biases really shines through to me as the crux of any debate around this topic. Some people, when they write, play into those biases in a way that is harmful if taken to their necessary end by society (misogyny and misandry, the former being more prevalent in our short history). Some readers are uncomfortable with biases intentionally or unintentionally displayed in books. None of that means that we should eliminate any of these biases from the market. If we did, we would be working to eliminate experiences from societal consciousness that could help us be more empathic to those people. And experiences and perspectives are wonderful things to explore and debate and understand in the world of fiction. I am a believer in the statement that reading increases empathy in people. It allows us to experience things and emotions we might never experience otherwise. Why cap that? Not every book is for everyone, but neither are they intended to be.
Interesting, Pete! We should talk more about this sometime, in case I don't fully understand what you're sharing. I'd say that we all have biases is 100% true. While having biases is very human, we can become more aware of our biases and choose to act according to our values. That said, I think fiction is a great way to explore those habits of mind, which can be complex and challenging.
@ sorry, this was a thought that was much more complex in my head that I smushed down as I was leaving work. It mostly a response to the “should men and and women only write about men and women” question/statement that some people bring up. And I think the biases that both sides bring to the table when writing the opposite or the same sex are valuable in that they can cause good faith discussion, which is a bedrock principle of our society (in my opinion, at least). Additionally they are valuable in that they can allow people to be in others’ shoes, whether it’s the writer in writing them or the reader in reading them. That’s at least the bedrock that I sit on with other nuances layered on top for exceptional circumstances, and another layer about subjectivity of experience and taste.
So many thoughts in response to your discussion. I do think the skill of the author has more to do with their ability to characterize different genders as opposed to the gender of the author themselves. For example, Fonda Lee stands out to me as a female author who writes believable male characters. I think the gender of the author has more of an impact on how I react to sexual content. I don’t tend to enjoy romance in books generally, but when it comes to explicit scenes, I find it far easier to accept from a female author than from a male. When written by a male, I tend to find it creepy and indulgent that they spend the time to dream the scenes up and articulate them deliberately using prose, whereas this doesn’t tend to occur to me when coming from a female author. The second book in the Kingkiller Chronicles comes to mind; I struggled with a good portion of the second book. With regard to how the demographics split out across adult and YA fantasy, I happen to be an adult male, and I tend to recoil from books where the dominant perspective is not from an adult. I tend to find them irritating and impossible to relate to. Even as a kid, I struggled with the suspension of disbelief if there was an adventure from a kid's perspective. I tended to look up to adults and was in a rush to become an adult, so I gravitated heavily toward adult perspective fiction. I wonder how many males share this experience. I’m also not comfortable when spending time around children, so this is probably correlated. My own personal interests include practicing and consuming combat sports and reading a lot about history and politics, and I tend to strongly prefer grimdark fantasy. I’m curious if women with similar hobbies also favor the same subgenres of fantasy. I believe authors using initials has more to do with bookstore-related things than anything else; for example, I remember hearing Victoria Schwab say that her publishers wanted to be able to separate her adult fantasy from her YA, so her adult was published using her initials and her YA using her full name. I thought that was an interesting business decision. Thanks for the thought-provoking content!
Thank you for your thoughts! Sexual content is so subjective. I know many people hated the way Fonda Lee approached certain sexual scenes in Jade City. That’s a really good point about suspension of disbelief and young adult protagonists in strong roles. I wonder if the intialled name made a difference for Schwab.
Speaking on YA and boys. When I was young David Eddings was the biggest name in fantasy due to the success of Belgariad which was about a boy going on a Lord of the Rings type adventure. Eddings (and for that matter Card's Ender's Game) success would lead to an explosion of these kinds of publications such as Williams Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn and Jordan's Wheel of Time. These kinds of titles predate the YA marketing expansion but would probably be labled YA if released today. These were the type of titles boys 11-13 where reading when I was that age. The farm boy going on an adventure is boy YA but has often escapped the YA lable and is often marketed as adult fantasy. Which leads to further questions around gender as to how male coming of age stories escape the label of YA and the female equivalents often get lumped in. P.S. I saw on goodreads you already finished The Unholy Consult. How you feeling?
That's an excellent point, and I've often thought about that. Why is coming of age from a young male perspective adult and YA from a young female perspective (in most cases)? Pre-YA sections, it was all just fantasy. The Unholy Consult was incredible and devastating! Bakker makes every other fantasy series seem YA in comparison! 😆
Only 30 min in and already loving this discussion ! Im not sure if ya'll bring this up later in the conversation (tbd by me) but I know ya'll are talking alot about the appeal of stories with female leads may or may not appeal to boys, I also wonder about the inverse of that. The priming that we do as a society to tell girls they can't like nerdy things or else boys won't like them etc and how that may impact women who do want to read fantasy/scifi. Just general thought that came to mind.
That's such a good point about priming! I would love to hear more stats about non-binary would appreciate more fantasy stories with that inclusion. Thank you so much for watching, Alicia! 💜
Fantastic conversation. One dimension to this problem is who publishing has chosen to chase or exclude over the decades. Who they select has not always been based on who is genuinely unique and best. Even some of the authors we consider legends today had to start out as quasi copycats of other authors to even get published to begin with. And there are probably countless people who gave up after not getting published.
That is a good point! I don’t know much about how publishers make their selections, but it does seem like they may choose copycats of what sells. Thanks!
Such a fantastic discussion. ❤ I loved that you guys took this topic on as it can be difficult to navigate. I have complicated feelings on this as a women who reads predominantly male authors. On the one hand I’ve deeply connected with stories that I wouldn’t be considered part of the target audience, so does it matter who it was written for? While also understanding the need for stories to be written and available for different audiences (in this case gender). I think I need to read more female authors as I am curious if they would hit me differently.
I relate to all of this! I've been reading more female authors this year, and most are books I could easily recommend to male readers who have a similar reading taste. Like you, I seem not have any problem reading books that are not targeted towards my gender, so I suppose it doesn't matter for some of us. Thanks!
Talking about gendered marketing. Princess Mononoke's original poster had San aka the titular Princess Mononoke on the poster but then when it was brought to the west, the marketing team made all the posters centered on the male character- Ashitaka and the marketeers themselves said it was cause they wanted to market towards male audience and since even critic spaces were also majority men, they wanted to appeal to that majority too.
I'm a father of two, and have seen the gender gap in reading first hand. My daughter is now 15, and is an awesome reader. She started reading Harry Potter in 3rd grade, and by middle school swept past kid lit to adult books, now reading about an equal mix of fantasy, literary fiction, and classics. But my 11 year old son is endlessly frustrating. He can read pretty well, and does fine at school with reading comprehension activities. But getting him to read at home is an endless challenge, particularly when it comes to fiction. He still often goes for glorified board books in his shelf, which we're trying to purge, and attempts to get him interested in age-appropriate series (like say Redwall) have gone over like a lead balloon. And indeed, when I try and browse the middle grade shelves for him/with him, it's notable that 90% of the books cater to girls. As an author, I've been thinking about gender and POV a lot. My first novel (querying it now, but worried I'll have to go self-pub due to the length) was very much a coming of age story centering around two young men. While I'm happy about how the themes of race and class played out, I felt something of a miss not exploring gender more in the setting. Which is why my current project is a first-person book with a female POV. But this discussion makes me wonder if it would be misinterpreted as being "YA" just because of a female protagonist. As a reader, one of the most fascinating things to me is how continually popular themes of nihilism are with men (both as authors and readers) and how unpopular they are with women. Obviously there are exceptions here (I know you are one yourself) but I don't know what it says about our culture and the lived experience of men and women. I have suspicions here, but as a man, I only really know half the story (if that).
Thank you so much for sharing about your experience with this topic as a father and writer! I wish there were more options for middle-grade and young adult male readers. I ran into that issue when looking for books for my nephew when he was younger. That is such an interesting point about nihilism and young men. This might be for an older demographic, but I've heard that there's data indicating more loneliness among young men. I think there's a greater risk of a fantasy book being labeled YA if the single-POV main protagonist is a young female, and there isn't a heavy dose of sex and violence. I wish I could say otherwise, but I can't think of many examples. Mistborn and The Last Tale of the Flower Bride might work, but I think both are marketed as YA and adult.
@@Johanna_reads My inclination is to believe that a similar proportion of folks, regardless of gender, have a deep-seated intuition that all is not right with the cosmos, or just are prone to be unhappy. If you're a woman, patriarchy is right there, staring you in the face. But if you're a man (particularly a straight white one who's reasonably well off) you need to reflect on your own discontents on a more personal level. I also suspect that dark, edgelord worlds seem like a much safer form of exploration for men because they don't have to deal with as much shit in real life. Some might think it makes them a stronger person not looking away from the darkest elements of humanity when others would turn their face. Some might just think the stuff is a cool, fun diversion from real life. I mean, I was in my 20s before I realized that virtually all women worried at some point about being assaulted in public.
Hi Karl, I have a suggestion.. Ranger's Apprentice by John Flanagan. It's a terrific coming of age story with wonderful themes of men mentoring other men. John Flanagan was in Australian publishing yet his son wasn't interested in reading. So he wrote these stories to get his son interested in reading. My youngest a son is also reading how to train your dragon Cressida Cowel. For a younger boy 5-7yo Monty's Island trio of books are great. We also do a lot of audio books.
"Is it on the author or the reader?" A bit of both. Intention behind the text can only go so far, execution and perception of the text is what matters most.
looking forward to the conversation, but this is your and Bookborn's reminder to read KJ Parker. Jimmy gets a pass because I seem to recall him reading the Folding Knife, but I could be hallucinating
So glad Bookborn brought up the absence of Rey toys. I remember seeing a giant Milennium Falcon toy with Finn and Chewbacca but not Rey. I was furious. It was an insult to boys, who can recognize who the hero of the story is.
I thought I responded to this but it's not showing up, hopefully it's not a repeat. I completely agree that it's an insult to boys! It implies that boys would never be interested or could relate to a female protagonist - which is a) not true and b) never assumed about girls when reading/watching things.
Around the conversation on Game of Thrones popularity vs HP and LOTR, I think a big part is just TV vs film, the biggest TV show of all time will never have the same number of viewers/impact as the equivalent movies
I don't know about the Arrows Trilogy, but whenever something like Magic's Pawn comes up from her Last Herald-Mage Trilogy, Misty and Larry always make it clear that they're not writing YA books in Valdemar, that they're adult books and intended that way. I think since a lot of readers since the 1980s onwards discover Valdemar in their teens, and that characters like Vanyel are so compelling that it's the first time we feel like fantasy has space for us, that it's easy to think it's therefore a YA book. (Of course, one look at the US paperback cover for Magic's Pawn makes it pretty clear the target audience for Valdemar are adults.) I guess Lackey might be a good example of a female author whose male characters appeal to a male audience. (Though if you look at her Canadian covers, I've heard male friends up there say that they were shocked she had so many male fans in America since instead of demons and mages they got shirtless guys and sparkleponies on their covers.) Still, I think one thing about her world is that the inclusion of lgbtqia+ characters means that it feels more realistic to anyone who is (or knows) any lgbtqia+ people. A lot of fantasy back in the 80s when Magic's Pawn came out seemed to take place in a land whose greatest fantasy feature was that it was a world without any queerness. I know Ursula Vernon has joked that like most Gen X, she discovered gay people existed through Valdemar novels, but I'd never heard of ace or aro before Brightly Burning, and I picked up her newest book over the summer and there's trans and nonbinary characters seamlessly part of the story.
I was so impressed by her inclusion of lgbtqia+ when I read the Arrows Trilogy! I enjoyed her writing and character work quite a bit. I saw Goodreads reviews in which people were upset by her display of sexual violence, so I know she's not gotten an easy pass on that from some readers.
Great conversation! Very insightful and I really enjoyed hearing everyone’s opinions and personal histories with this topic. It’s something I’ve thought about a little as I’ve tried recommending books to family members. Loved the points on marketing and I think cover art leans into this discussion as well.
Thank you so much! Cover art is a really good point and part of the ongoing discussion. Some authors might not get a say in those matters, and it can certainly affect gendered marketing.
The practice of more women authors going by initials explicitly due to sexist reader preferences (or going by male pen names) has been going on for a very long time, certainly well before JK Rowling or the like, unfortunately. Heck, Mary Shelley's publication of Frankenstein in 1818 was originally anonymous, but when it was found out she was the author the book was critiqued for her femaleness! While I'm sure we are somewhat better 200 years later, we certainly still have a ways to go. It certainly feels like traditionally most sci-fi/fantasy authors that go by initials to last name are women. Also, Robin Hobb did choose the pen name Robin intentionally to be androgynous due to concerns some readers wouldn't trust a book with a male protagonist written by a woman (according to her interviews). I've heard some conversations by trad authors that publishers definitely pushed potential authors of YA to have female protagonists more due to the demographics and that more girls and women read - especially YA. But there is a funny tension, because some (obviously bad) traditional rules of thumb for adult fiction or for movies/television is that male leads are universal (appreciated by men and women) but female leads are just for women. So that market force may push the opposite in non-YA, non-romance adult fiction. I think the gendering of YA has changed over time though as when I was young there were certainly many more sci-fi/fantasy books for younger people with male protagonists than female. There were some female leads (say Meg from A Wrinkle in Time), but they were more the exception. To me that period of male leaning YA protagonists lasts up through about Harry Potter. By the time the distopians came (Hunger Games, Divergent, Delirium, Matched, etc.) I think we were starting to see things swing more female focused (although you still had Maze Runner or slightly earlier Percy Jackson). The books I've read in the last decade that I feel deal the most with gender directly certainly aren't YA, and the most interesting in gender, are more often in sci-fi than fantasy and are very often written by queer and/or trans authors (and most often by female authors too). Be that robots/ships that might have trouble with gender, or alien species with different gender practices, or what not. You can certainly directly deal with gender roles in YA fantasy (Tamora Pierce's Alanna series is a very obvious example) though for any interested.
Thank you so much for all these points! I either didn’t know or had forgetten that Mary Shelly’s Frankenstein was originally anonymous. It’s been a long while since I’ve read it. That’s interesting to learn that adult modern sci-fi is dealing with gender more head-on that fantasy. I’ll have to start looking into that!
@@Johanna_reads Obvious starting points I'd recommend would be Ancillary Justice by Ann Leckie or The Long Way to a Small, Angry Planet or even consider the agender of Murderbot by Martha Wells. Even tangentially things like identity in A Memory Called Empire with integrating memories of past lives and queer characters have some gender consideration. YMMV, but these are all excellent, excellent books and diverse types of books styles too.
If you would like to see fiction for young audiences* with complex and ambivalent endings, I'd recommend taking a look at Heinlein's juveniles, including "Podkayne of Mars" and "Farmer in the Sky". Several titles (including those two) told difficult stories and pulled no punches, and the endings were very hard. If you read Podkayne, make sure to find the original ending, which the publisher required Heinlein to change for publication, it hits very hard indeed. Oh, and Podkayne is a female protagonist, FWIW. Some books in that series were more straight adventure fiction ("The Rolling Stones", for instance), but they're all solid reads and they're all fairly short by modern standards (generally less than 250 pages). While they were written in the '50s and show evidence of that time period in their style, Heinlein was very good at not writing down to his purported audience and I find them still very readable today. * The series was characterized as "juvenile" by the publisher when the books were published in the 1950s, and at least one of the books (Farmer in the Sky) was published in condensed form in Boys' Life (the magazine of the Boy Scouts).
Thank you for all the young adult exceptions! 😅 I’ve only read Starship Troopers and Stranger in a Strang Land by Heinlein, but it’s interesting to know he wrote for yound audiences as well.
I'm Gen X and I was reading eipc fantasy in high school. I read McCaffrey and Lackey among others, but yes it was male dominated. But also read Sweet Valley High and the like, so I was reading female authors for more romance, so I never noticed the gender gap until adulthood.
According to Wikipedia, Megan Lindholm deliberately chose an androgynous name (Robin Hobb) when she started writing in a different subgenre of fantasy. Where they got that info is uncertain. I remember hearing that there was a well known author behind the name and when I found out who she was I was a bit disappointed. I had almost all her books under her original name on my shelves by then. In her foreword to her short story collection 'The Inheritance' she explains how the duality came to be. There's nothing in that foreword that suggests the name was chosen for a specific reason. Only that she chose to publish under another name because she wanted to try a new voice. The foreword is available at gizmodo (published 2011) if anyone wants to read it.
Ahh, the picture is now coming together. Now that I think back on it, I’ve heard some critics say that she deliberately chose an androgynous name but later avoided any statements suggesting that was the case. Whether she had the gender-neutral intention or not, I imagine it helped her career. Thanks!
Hahahaha! Monster smut is a growing trend in romantasy, from what I understand. While he's much older now, it would fun to see Fabio in that kind of costume. 😄
I’m only half an hour in, and I’m appreciating this conversation so much! Also, I couldn’t help but smile when Bookborn mentioned Beowulf! It’s definitely a product of a patriarchal culture, but there are subversive readings of the poem, particularly in regard to Grendel’s mother. Now back to the conversation!
That's a really good point about Grendel's mother, Philip! By the way, if you're ever interested in buddy-reading Grendel by John Gardner someday, I would love to discuss it with you!
haha you know what? When I mentioned Beowulf ALMOST mentioned Grenel's mother! I read one of the more subversive "translations" of Beowulf and found that exploration super fascinating. I didn't want to get us off topic (which I did anyway, several times in this video already haha)
To speak to Bookborn's point on the Star Wars toys she is right, female figures have always sold poorly because boys dont generally want to play with a female figure, or rather, most children only get a limited number of toys and therefore they usually want the main hero and often the main villain like He-Man and Skeletor or Luke and Darth Vader, there isnt really room for the Leias or Teelas and even when they can, they would rather have a different version of Batman than a Batgirl or Catwoman. Also I think a lot of boys/men are getting their male representation, role models and power fantasies etc fulfilled by videogames now more than ever and no longer turn to books. Comics and manga also cater well to boys/men although manga does have a significant female readership, even with typical male shonen like One Piece, Naruto, Demon Slayer etc. Traditionally, women's comics dealing in romance etc were popular (although written and drawn mostly by men) but the emergence of women's magazines focusing on male heart throbs and makeup and other things young girls/women enjoy helped to push comics out of the market space. There was also the emergence of the Comics Code Authority that limited what could be shown in comics which caused irreparable damage (which indirectly led to Superheroes becoming so popular) and comics became seen as "lesser" than typical literature. Only recently discovered your channel but I love your takes and these discussions have been fantastic.
The only thing the author controls is what happens in the story, the marketing of a book and its reception are so mutable over time that the best thing to do is to have plenty of representation. Books for boys, books for girls, basically books for every demographic.
This reminds me of something silly I saw a few months back. A couple of Stephen King's novellas have been republished as stand alone and The Body which is what the classic coming of age movie Stand by me is based on was in the YA section.
Loved this discussion! These are very important topics to discuss. I loved a lot of Bookborn’s points, especially how gender norms are constantly being redefined in society. How women and men are portrayed in books says a lot about the society at the time. And there is a deeply engrained part in human nature to have to put things into patterns and categorize things, so I’m not sure if we will ever get away from this. Also it’s really funny Jimmy brought up that The Outsiders is for young boys bc the author, S. E. Hinton, is a female 😂. That was one of the books that I was forced to read for school that I loved.
Thank you! These definitions and trends constantly change, and that's a good point about how gender norms in books speaks to the time in which the book was written. I didn't know that about The Outsiders author! I'm sure Jimmy doesn't care that Hinton is female though.
@ lol right! You really wouldn’t be able to tell the author was female bc she wrote the male characters so well! It’s great when authors can write the human experience so well you can forget about the author altogether. like how Ishiguro could write the experience of a young girl growing up. And oh yes I think Jimmy doesn’t mind it’s a female author either. I just thought it was funny lol. 😊
Sorry, I'm totally watching the replay. I used to read fantasy and contemporary romance. I would much rather read romantasy to get my romance fix than contemporary romance. Because I'm a fantasy reader. I've read fantasy since I was a child. So let's stay in the genre.
I'm thinking now that none of the misogynism bothered me because I was very aware I was reading fantasy. I never thought about the real life implications.
47:44 Had to pause the video in light of this WHAT?! When I think about childhood male role models via books Gary Paulsen was one of my first favorite authors. Hatchet 🪓 is a big school book where I’m from at least, and after reading that I got into Canyons and, my favorite, the Mr Tucket series which is a 5 book western series for young readers. Ugh my childhood. And now I learned that he died a couple years ago and I have feels.
I think men can write for women. L. Frank Baum and Gregory Maguire both centered Oz in female-focused stories, most of the time. Terry Pratchett wrote the best women in fantasy: Granny Weatherwax, Gytha Ogg, Magrat Garlick, Sgt. Angua, Susan StoHelit, Sybil Ramkin, Tiffany Aching, and more.
I am very interested in the "Gendered Reading in Fantasy" topic but have no interest in the YA discussion. I was a bit disappointed that the first topic seemed to fade out quickly and that the majority of this vid is about the YA issues. I'd love to hear more concerning Gender.
I appreciate your honest feedback. I did a single video on the topic “Is it okay for books to have a gendered target audience?” That video might speak more to your interest. While I can understand not being interested in YA fantasy, the topic is central to the gendered reading in fantasy discussion. There are several reasons why this is the case, some of which we explained in this discussion. I think was an area that I should’ve addressed more in my initial video.
What an interesting and thoughtful conversation. I think it is bad how masculinity often gets put down in a lot of books. I think men should see themselves as good in books too.
I got half way through IT and put it down but it was really the bullying that got to me more than anything. Even though I knew because how the book is structured that the all the members of the loser club would make it to adulthood every time one got cornered by the bully I was terrified for them.
I thought Henry Bowers (the bully) was unhinged and genuinely frightening at times. The domestic abuse and hate crime at the beginning was also difficult to read about. I can understand not finishing!
At 13:20 probably life stages .... Girls mature faster than boys and are ready for fantasy before boys .... Themes of YA fantasy are growth and change and becoming ....boys are playing computer games or sport just hanging out ... But young women are really confronting a very different reality we begin to have many life changes ..... Yet then the headwinds of what it means to be a woman really cuts into that reading time ...adult women serve their families intensely ... Career and parenting or caring is an extreme sport ... Men get to have more free time and head space that big epic battle fantasy entails .... Women who have had babies are tallying up the sheer number of human hours that looking after a young child requires that some author has written off for some battle feels thousands on thousands of unpaid labour thrown away because someone has a need to read violence feel emotional. I used to love fantasy so much ... But as I grew into an adult so much adult fantasy became absurd to me . Battle war fantasy epics became literally boring to me ... they are so narrow in their concept. War should have been consigned to history - fantasy and science fiction represent our future .... I need violence decentered from my fantasy.
I think it’s totally cool for male authors to write for a men BUT it becomes a problem when the male perspective becomes the objective perspective. There’s ’Chick Lit’ and male lit is just lit. Throw in race and it gets even more difficult. Western fantasy’s issues are very western culturally based. You look at East Asia for example and they have so much folklore with women as the heroes.
The issue of young people ability to read might have something to do with how they are taught. Someone teacher came up with this new way of teaching children to read in like the 90s, I don't recall the details but it was pushed into American public schools. Long story short it turned out to be straight bad way to teach how to read and set back a generation at least of kids when it comes to reading.
Most people dont read. >10% of humanity reads? Most readers dont read fantasy. >10% of readers like fantasy? So id assume on a Venn diagram a female author and a male author are not diametrically opposed on completely different sides they are very close. The female and the male authors are part of the very tiny same subsection of interests. It can be good to zoom out a little and realize the people who fight the hardest are both in the same tiny club liking almost identical things and fighting over the last 10% when they both agree to 90% fantasy is awesome. But maybe this is just the only fantasy topic im chill about and im just missing the nuances of it
Maybe! I read that fantasy is one of the top selling genres in fiction. While it’s true that most people don’t read many novels these days (if at all), I think those who do read fiction novels are highly likely to come across fantasy. Even those who don’t read will come across fantasy culture via video games, movies, tabletop games, etc.
Adult fantasy and sci-fi has a lot of really intricate things like world building that scratches the same itch as people into history or math (aka men). Men are more interesting in things, and women are more into people on average, so I think the feel of books and mange written by men or women have different vibes. You don’t have the same expansive and intricate world building and other really nerdy stuff in YA books, and it doesn’t appeal to men as much. This is at least what I’ve gathered from the men and women around me. Edit: it’s a lot like why channels that talk about really deep concepts like the views of early church fathers in Christianity are a large part made up by men, and why women focus more on volunteering in person.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts though it doesn’t align with my experience. I know I and several other of my female fantasy loving friends love rich setting descriptions and world-building. I know male BookTubers (like Criminolly and I think Bookish to some degree) have expressed fatigue with fantasy because of all the worldbuilding. Readers like my mother, who reads mostly classics and lit-fic, are all about the elaborate descriptions. All that to say, I don’t see this idea that men prefer intricate world-building holding weight.
Humans are hunter gatherers deep down. Fantasy in some sense is the ultimate, distilled down to it's most basic essence hunter-focused story. So it makes sense that most often it's written by men, for men, with male heroes, and why even female adult fantasy reads as if it was written for men "by men" as well. The opposite is true in cases like Jane Austen, Bronte sisters etc. It's not at all random that their writing seems to be on the complete other side of the spectrum - a lot more focused on the immediate and pragmatic challenges of then current life and society, interpersonal relationships and group status, with female protagonists. IMO looking at these literary sub-genres and wondering why one is male and the other female dominated, or thinking isn't this bad or strange or whatever is overthinking it. There is no greater meaning or insight behind it beyond being a reflection of the basic differences in interest and personality between men and women in general.
The big 5 publishers have forgotten one key principle when it comes to writing: Target your audience. Instead, they have tried to become a political propaganda machine, and whether you agree with the politics or not, one thing is undeniable--it's terrible marketing advice. This doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't put messaging in your novels. Authors have been doing this for ages. The difference now is that the big 5 is trying to use a sledgehammer to shove their ideas down peoples throats rather than using subtle messaging. Take the Wheel of Time series in book form vs Amazon's video series as an example. Robert Jordan did an excellent job of pushing left-wing ideals in a subtle, yet powerful way that was consistent with the world, necessary to the plot, and let it speak for itself rather than trying to actually send any explicit messaging. When you look at Amazon's video interpretation, it's horrifically done. They tried to double down on the implied message, and instead beat the viewer over the head with propaganda. This angers existing fans, and makes them hate the series.
@@BruceWayne15325 Bookborn, Merphy Napier, and I had a great discussion about overt vs. subtle theming over on Merphy’s book channel. I highly recommend checking it out given your interest in the topic. By the way, I haven’t read or watched Wheel of Time, so I can’t speak on it.
Just want to leave this here... I read a lot of Jungian psychology and Jung put forth the idea that men have an inner feminine (the anima) and have an inner masculine (the animus). That has really helped me understand why women can relate to men/enjoy their stories and vice versa.
56:30. Funny how the subtext was if you didn't get what I got from a book you're stupid. Instead of, people imprint their personal biases into books and draw out what the want to see. Overall, the reality is people think differently and like different things. Akin to how we look different from each other. The expectation that everyone should think and perceive issues as you do is ridiculous.
Random thought: How much does Tolkien’s early 20th century chauvinism and men’s only social circle influence the development of male centric fantasy and how much did George RR Martin’s more bad a heroines change fantasy.
I think both had a huge influence on this aspect of fantasy in different ways! I'm going to guess these things were rarely questioned (if ever) when Lord of the Rings became popular. After ASOAIF, I think many fantasy writers learned the power of multi-POV and the important role of less idealized female characters.
Loved this discussion. I think a non binary perspective on this topic would give it even more depth. It would be very interesting to revisit the topic every 5 years or so to (hopefully) see trends shift in a positive direction.
I would love to hear a non-binary perspective on the topic, and I'm sure we'd have many different things to say 5 years from now with so many changing trends. Thank you!
I am just catching up on this discussion and adding some random thoughts as you folks discuss. Jimmy just mentioned the "backlash" against the current progressive style of comics (google "Comicsgate") when THE WHOLE POINT of a series like The X-men was that it was pushing against the sexist and classist viewpoints of society. You brought up Ursula LeGuin learning to write "like a man", but I don't know if a male writer has the life experience necessary to create a female character that's truly representative. I mean if you changed Brienne of Tarth to Bryan of Tarth, would the character be conceivably different? (This reminds me of a video I saw years ago about country music, where someone picked through the top 25 songs by male singers and like every song mentioned drinking, trucks and women in tight jeans. All three, in all the songs...) (p.s. Robin Hobb isn't her real name either 😁)
Interesting about X-Men, and I suppose I can see that from the two movies I watched a long, long time ago. 😅 Yes, Bryan of Tarth would be VERY different than Brienne of Tarth, in my opinion. We all know that about Megan Lindholm (but I just found out it's actually Margaret Astrid Lindholm Ogden, which I didn't know until now)!
@Johanna_reads The problem with many "badass" female characters in fantasy is that they are indistinguishable from "badass" male characters. I mean the gender is different but they are written so much like male characters they don't stand apart.
Brienne's whole character is she is a big ugly woman wearing armor in a society where women are supposed to be gentle sex objects for men, therefore she is deemed not feminine and an outcast. How did you come to the conclusion that her gender makes no difference?
Brienne is written very differently than a “badass” male character imo. Even if that were true asoiaf has about 5 other main female character POVs that are all nuanced and different from one another. Arya is probably the character I feel most represented by in all of fantasy
Thanks for the discussion! I’m glad you attempted to have a lot of nuance in the discussion instead of hitting the topic without considering multiple angles. In 2024 my theories on this topic all come down to market realities and where the money is at and I’m glad you presented those options as potential realities as well
Thank you! Capitalism is certainly the number 1 factor driving everything. It also creates a weird chicken-egg situation where it's hard to determine whether the marketing is influencing audience or vice versa.
Thanks for having me on Johanna. This was one of my favorite discussions in a long time, you and Jimmy always teach me so much!
My pleasure! I loved chatting with you about this topic, and I’m always impressed with your insights! 💜
As an ex-Waterstones bookseller, I got into many discussions with parents and grandparents who would only buy their children the "appropriate" book based on the children's gender. "Ew no that sounds too girly" or "no that has a girl main character and he's a boy" was said by parents almost every single day. And the YA section in my bookstore also shrunk and got took over by manga around 2022. More teens are reading it than YA fiction around the world apparently!
I can understand being concerned about some age-appropriate content in books, but otherwise, there so much joy and wonder in exploring the shelves and picking up books that make you curious! I should read more manga! 😅
I find it funny some of the big box stores put the YA section with little thought. I have seen Berserk in the YA section.
@@stephennootens916 Came here to say this. Manga is split into teen and adult audiences but all the titles get jumbled together in the same corners as YA sections all over. In my local library too! It's the same thing as my mom renting Princess Mononoke for my brother when he was 5 (back in 2000) thinking it was a Disney cartoon: the assumption that comics and animation are for children.
@thatinsufferablenerd you would think they would have smarten up since manga and anime have been showing up state side for so long. It is special funny with manga because they have ratings on the books.
Thankfully my library keeps them sperated. So series like High School DxD or all of Junji Ito's works are next to the adult comics while the manga like dragon ball z or Demon Slayer is in the teen section.
@@stephennootens916 I mean, on the good side its surprisingly marure and deals actually fair, if early a bit edgy with sexual assault. like 2major character experience that too very plot or character important, so its weird. And actually a better medium to deal with it aside early edgy.
Bi dependshow young, foe teenager iits, ok some maturity is probably recommanded and its, ok its pretty dark fantasy for sure, if getting less edgy. But also two major characters hace assault or one selling his body as thin that affects them. So not taking it lightly.
Ok i think teenager can read surprsing mature and manga often is mixed, but also there are shounen that are literally ya for boys, but thereis the girls equivalent , but eniough are actually kinda trying both genders ok? Just yeah for girls they are more softer but they mingle a lot?
And seinen is mature content. shounen and shojo ya, , but ther are really age gappng shojo.
Also yeah warning manga/anime to be clear there is everything, its really a medium wit heverything, but anime and manga have , em different fanservice, and sometime em humor, but its often having that mixed with actual good female characters agency and wise, not always but often?
manga and equivalents are pretty much in its own madiu wit ha lot of range. and from different cultures too
serously even comics in the west are all ranges, manga way more so all genres really.
Amazing conversation. I really appreciate how all of you had some really nuanced and interesting takes on a very complicated topic.
Thank you, Johan!
Fascinating discussion.
It’s interesting that while traditionally fantasy books were geared toward men or boys; my recent experience at local bookstores is that the new fantasy bookshelves seems to be dominated by female authors or books that seemed to be marketed towards girls. These authors are getting a ton of space not just on the shelves, but also on special displays, table stands, etc. I wonder if that’s because these books are of high-quality or is there something else happening. I realize that girls tend to read more than boys. So maybe it’s just marketing to the demand.
And of course there are men throwing childish fits about the change in direction. I clicked on a video that caught my some months back and it turned out to be some middle age guy complaining about what women are doing to fantasy. I now get videos like that popping every two or three days. Luckily I think there are more man who do read who either take no notice of gender of a writer or enjoy reading works from people who have had different view of he world than them.
@ Hi. I personally have zero issue with this change. In fact, I’m a father of two girls and I’m happy about it. It’s just an observation of how marketing may or may not affect books sales. I’m curious what is driving this as I don’t read a whole lot of fantasy.
@bartsbookspace well my guess is the publishers like movie studios are chasing the trend because they view it as easy low risk money maker. Why the trend is there is another important question. My view is that the trend comes from those teenage girls who were massive readers grew up and want more adult fantasy novels for them so some of them wrote those adult novels while others happily read them.
While i wond downplay that ther a lot female authors in fantasy being decent till really good at fantasy, and even if romance it actually being good fantasy too.
But ther eis also a lot mismarketing erotica now as fantasy and ya, which is , ok thats not new, women read always erotica as did men, and there are good women fantasy authors very good,
alsoa lot that belong into adult are in YA? I mean "romantasy"
Dunno manga personally are filling a lot too, and while manga covers literally ever possible genre and age group as medium, a lot popular is YA. shounen and shojo are basically YA . Probably better to replace than romantasy . ok why cant most romantasy jot just be in the adult isle. with berserk?
@@stephennootens916 That makes sense. On avg, girls are more likely to read than boys, and the publishing industry will print what they think will sell. But there may be more to the story. I have heard that there are significantly more women editors now than men (which is great as, for a long time, book publishing was dominated by men), and women editors gravitate toward books they want to read. It's part of a larger cultural shift we are experiencing, and much of it (in my view) is positive.
Who would've guessed, an absolutely fascinating and insightful discussion between some of the most thoughtful and well-spoken people on booktube. LOVED this! You all touched upon so many things that I had never even thought about.
I really hope that the rise of social media in book marketing can help with celebrating female authors openly, that was such an interesting point! Thanks for sharing 🤩
Thank you, Esmay! I appreciate your thoughts always! 💜
People forget in the original 60s comics Peter Parker is written as a self-centred, mean-spirited libertarian with a strong dislike of the hippie movement and the 30s Superman is a champion of the downtrodden and working class. X-Men, literally a comic about people who are discriminated against for stuff they can't control or change about themselves. Iron Man, a weapons manufacturer regretting his contributions to murder and war. Thor, a literal god getting humbled to learn what it means to be human.
I didn't know that!
You might find Superman was Jewish which is about most of the early comic authors were Jews living in a small community in New York and how Jewish story telling techniques were used in the comics.
Thank you! You're right, I forgot about that, that is why I switched over to Marvel in the late 60's. The story's felt more real and grounded in reality (for comic books) than DC.
Thank you for representing all men in this discussion, Jimmy. The council approves
He's my favorite BookTube chad!
Excellent discussion, it's a very nuanced topic. For my own reading I am pretty similar to Jimmy, at age 11 I was reading Lord of the Rings, then transitioned into ASOIAF and Stephen King. But I also read Hunger Games and Harry Potter incessantly so I think it was a bit all over the place. I think it's definitely true that people react to scenes differently with knowledge that an author is male or female, though.
Thank you, Kyle! You might be the only person I know who enjoyed ASOIAF at such a young age. I didn't learn about it until I was much older. I appreciate your thoughts here!
This was a really interesting discussion that covered many aspects of a complex topic.
I personally don't think there is anything wrong with books geared to a specific audience. I think there is a need for young readers in particular to be able to relate to characters in books.
In addition, books geared towards a specific gender can also appeal to someone from the opposite gender.
Reading myriad different perspectives that are not our own I believe helps broaden our viewpoint. For example, I know what the female experience is but I don't know what the male experience is or the perspective of a minority.
In the past when there were fewer female fantasy authors available I would search out as many as I could find.
Today however, I like to think that I am gender neutral when choosing what I read.
Great discussion and I agree there are no easy answers.
Thank you, Kathi! I haven't gone out of my way to read from male vs. female authors, but I've certainly read more male written fantasy. Then again, this year I've somehow read from several more female authors, and I could recommend several of those books to any fan of the genre.
What a brilliant discussion about such an important topic. Thanks so much Joanna for hosting it! There is so much to discuss I’m not sure how much I could add in a quick comment section. But If I were to have a kind of utopia, books would be written for boys and girls, and in school everyone would read both. So in that way both genders get to learn a bit more about the world through the other’s eyes before they go out into the world. If I could extend it further I would include sexuality, race, class, caste etc etc. I know, quite the pipe dream.
Thank you, Sam! Most of us in the book community preach about books as a means to cultivate empathy. If we appreciate that benefit, why wouldn't we want to promote books with different perspectives? It's a great pipe dream!
Really appreciate this nuanced conversation. I had a thought pop up and will need to think on it more, but wanted to ask your thoughts Johanna: when YA fantasy is marketed more to women or romantasy, with less dense plot/writing style, is part of it to do with the state of society and women’s roles in it? I’m specifically thinking of how women carry the bulk of domestic and parenting labour in a marriage, as well as working a lot of the time, so they are exhausted and tend to turn to more ´light’ or ´easier’ books to read as an escape. Whereas data shows typically men have more free time and do less domestically/parenting, so their mental capacity may be higher for a denser story? They’re able to sit down and focus, as expectations on them contributing fairly are lower?
Really curious about your thoughts on this, am I out to left field?
I love this question! I have a video I've been working on that seems somewhat related to this point though it's not about gender. I would love to learn about those kinds of trends. I recently listened to a podcast in which someone said that today's women are still taking on the majority of domestic responsibilities. Thank you so much!
@ i look forward to that video. If you’re looking for stats, Fair Play author Eve Rodsky would likely have the numbers 😊
I really loved this discussion! Even though it’s open ended, I believe it’s important to keep a dialogue going! Bookborn and Jimmy were the perfect guests for this topic, my only gripe is that the video ended! I could have listened to you all talk about it for another 2 hours at least!
Thank you so much! I feel like there is still so much to discuss about the topic, and I’m so glad you enjoyed it!
When it comes to romance fantasy it makes sense when you remember that at least the major YA fantasy novels had some level of romance. Taken in thr fact that YA has been heavily dominated by girls for over a generations and you can see this new subgenre as a sign of those girls growing up and making their own space in adult fantasy.
It makes sense! I always encourage friends and family who enjoy the subgenre even though it's not been something I've gravitated towards.
A great discussion by three wonderful people! 🙌. I'm always trying to mix up the books I buy my nephews to include boy and girl characters. Just so they're surrounded with plenty of options. Now if they would just pick something up 😫
You win best uncle points for trying! 💜
Definitely a thought provoking discussion.
I definitely wrestle with this topic of portrayals vs endorsement. There’s some authors who portray some authors seem to be clearly signposting their beliefs in how they write (for example I think some of Stephen Kings later books are pretty unsubtle on what his personal beliefs are) vs someone like Gene Wolfe who frequently writes deeply flawed, even immoral characters and some readers have the tendency to attribute all of those attributes to Wolfe the person. Wolfe seemed to be very faithful to his wife and children and traditionally oriented when it came to sex, and yet writes some characters with very unhealthy and twisted views of sexuality. And for those who knew Wolfe personally or studied his life it seems pretty obvious that it wasn’t a reflection of his personal beliefs. So even though his characters hold certain views or behave in certain ways I’m incredibly cautious to assume that Wolfe is endorsing that, even from some of his protagonists. And obviously this applies to other authors, not just Wolfe.
Thank you! It's one thing to miss what the author was intending or have problems with it, but a deeper accusation is assuming the author is portraying themselves in their fiction. I'm very curious to read Wolfe next year (I hope)!
This is the thing RIGHT HERE. It's SO hard to separate endorsement versus just exploration, and that's a fine line that will probably be different for everyone.
Great discussion and topic! It definitely posed a lot of good questions to ponder 🤔
Thank you! I feel like I'm never finished pondering this subject. 😅
Forgive the string comments as I listen. But watched Toys We Grew Up With and the severe decline in He Man sales occurred with the release of She Ra. The explanation was boys didn't want to be playing with thettoys as their sisters.
Oh wow! I had no idea about that!
Anna Smith Spark, Anna Stephens, and JV Jones are female authors who write adult fantasy, which appeal to men.
I've been hearing a lot about Anna Smith Spark!
Anna Smith Spark is great! I just read a Sword of Bronze and Ashes. What a great fantasy horror!
The discussion of how we all have biases really shines through to me as the crux of any debate around this topic. Some people, when they write, play into those biases in a way that is harmful if taken to their necessary end by society (misogyny and misandry, the former being more prevalent in our short history). Some readers are uncomfortable with biases intentionally or unintentionally displayed in books.
None of that means that we should eliminate any of these biases from the market. If we did, we would be working to eliminate experiences from societal consciousness that could help us be more empathic to those people. And experiences and perspectives are wonderful things to explore and debate and understand in the world of fiction. I am a believer in the statement that reading increases empathy in people. It allows us to experience things and emotions we might never experience otherwise. Why cap that?
Not every book is for everyone, but neither are they intended to be.
Interesting, Pete! We should talk more about this sometime, in case I don't fully understand what you're sharing. I'd say that we all have biases is 100% true. While having biases is very human, we can become more aware of our biases and choose to act according to our values. That said, I think fiction is a great way to explore those habits of mind, which can be complex and challenging.
@ sorry, this was a thought that was much more complex in my head that I smushed down as I was leaving work.
It mostly a response to the “should men and and women only write about men and women” question/statement that some people bring up. And I think the biases that both sides bring to the table when writing the opposite or the same sex are valuable in that they can cause good faith discussion, which is a bedrock principle of our society (in my opinion, at least).
Additionally they are valuable in that they can allow people to be in others’ shoes, whether it’s the writer in writing them or the reader in reading them.
That’s at least the bedrock that I sit on with other nuances layered on top for exceptional circumstances, and another layer about subjectivity of experience and taste.
thank you, such a great discussion
Thank you for watching!
So many thoughts in response to your discussion.
I do think the skill of the author has more to do with their ability to characterize different genders as opposed to the gender of the author themselves. For example, Fonda Lee stands out to me as a female author who writes believable male characters. I think the gender of the author has more of an impact on how I react to sexual content. I don’t tend to enjoy romance in books generally, but when it comes to explicit scenes, I find it far easier to accept from a female author than from a male. When written by a male, I tend to find it creepy and indulgent that they spend the time to dream the scenes up and articulate them deliberately using prose, whereas this doesn’t tend to occur to me when coming from a female author. The second book in the Kingkiller Chronicles comes to mind; I struggled with a good portion of the second book.
With regard to how the demographics split out across adult and YA fantasy, I happen to be an adult male, and I tend to recoil from books where the dominant perspective is not from an adult. I tend to find them irritating and impossible to relate to. Even as a kid, I struggled with the suspension of disbelief if there was an adventure from a kid's perspective. I tended to look up to adults and was in a rush to become an adult, so I gravitated heavily toward adult perspective fiction. I wonder how many males share this experience. I’m also not comfortable when spending time around children, so this is probably correlated. My own personal interests include practicing and consuming combat sports and reading a lot about history and politics, and I tend to strongly prefer grimdark fantasy. I’m curious if women with similar hobbies also favor the same subgenres of fantasy.
I believe authors using initials has more to do with bookstore-related things than anything else; for example, I remember hearing Victoria Schwab say that her publishers wanted to be able to separate her adult fantasy from her YA, so her adult was published using her initials and her YA using her full name. I thought that was an interesting business decision.
Thanks for the thought-provoking content!
Thank you for your thoughts! Sexual content is so subjective. I know many people hated the way Fonda Lee approached certain sexual scenes in Jade City. That’s a really good point about suspension of disbelief and young adult protagonists in strong roles. I wonder if the intialled name made a difference for Schwab.
Speaking on YA and boys. When I was young David Eddings was the biggest name in fantasy due to the success of Belgariad which was about a boy going on a Lord of the Rings type adventure. Eddings (and for that matter Card's Ender's Game) success would lead to an explosion of these kinds of publications such as Williams Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn and Jordan's Wheel of Time. These kinds of titles predate the YA marketing expansion but would probably be labled YA if released today. These were the type of titles boys 11-13 where reading when I was that age. The farm boy going on an adventure is boy YA but has often escapped the YA lable and is often marketed as adult fantasy. Which leads to further questions around gender as to how male coming of age stories escape the label of YA and the female equivalents often get lumped in.
P.S.
I saw on goodreads you already finished The Unholy Consult. How you feeling?
That's an excellent point, and I've often thought about that. Why is coming of age from a young male perspective adult and YA from a young female perspective (in most cases)? Pre-YA sections, it was all just fantasy.
The Unholy Consult was incredible and devastating! Bakker makes every other fantasy series seem YA in comparison! 😆
Only 30 min in and already loving this discussion ! Im not sure if ya'll bring this up later in the conversation (tbd by me) but I know ya'll are talking alot about the appeal of stories with female leads may or may not appeal to boys, I also wonder about the inverse of that. The priming that we do as a society to tell girls they can't like nerdy things or else boys won't like them etc and how that may impact women who do want to read fantasy/scifi. Just general thought that came to mind.
Now that the industry is introducing more stories with and by gender non-binary individuals , I wonder what the stats look like for this as well.
That's such a good point about priming! I would love to hear more stats about non-binary would appreciate more fantasy stories with that inclusion. Thank you so much for watching, Alicia! 💜
Great discussion. Really helpful for me as I put the finishing touches on my fantasy novel series coming next year. Thank you!
Thank you! Congratulations on your fantasy series!
@@Johanna_reads Thanks!
Fantastic conversation. One dimension to this problem is who publishing has chosen to chase or exclude over the decades. Who they select has not always been based on who is genuinely unique and best. Even some of the authors we consider legends today had to start out as quasi copycats of other authors to even get published to begin with. And there are probably countless people who gave up after not getting published.
That is a good point! I don’t know much about how publishers make their selections, but it does seem like they may choose copycats of what sells. Thanks!
Such a fantastic discussion. ❤ I loved that you guys took this topic on as it can be difficult to navigate. I have complicated feelings on this as a women who reads predominantly male authors. On the one hand I’ve deeply connected with stories that I wouldn’t be considered part of the target audience, so does it matter who it was written for? While also understanding the need for stories to be written and available for different audiences (in this case gender). I think I need to read more female authors as I am curious if they would hit me differently.
I relate to all of this! I've been reading more female authors this year, and most are books I could easily recommend to male readers who have a similar reading taste. Like you, I seem not have any problem reading books that are not targeted towards my gender, so I suppose it doesn't matter for some of us. Thanks!
Talking about gendered marketing. Princess Mononoke's original poster had San aka the titular Princess Mononoke on the poster but then when it was brought to the west, the marketing team made all the posters centered on the male character- Ashitaka and the marketeers themselves said it was cause they wanted to market towards male audience and since even critic spaces were also majority men, they wanted to appeal to that majority too.
I didn't know that! How interesting. I saw the movie many years ago, thanks to a male friend, and I'm way overdue to rewatch it.
I'm a father of two, and have seen the gender gap in reading first hand. My daughter is now 15, and is an awesome reader. She started reading Harry Potter in 3rd grade, and by middle school swept past kid lit to adult books, now reading about an equal mix of fantasy, literary fiction, and classics. But my 11 year old son is endlessly frustrating. He can read pretty well, and does fine at school with reading comprehension activities. But getting him to read at home is an endless challenge, particularly when it comes to fiction. He still often goes for glorified board books in his shelf, which we're trying to purge, and attempts to get him interested in age-appropriate series (like say Redwall) have gone over like a lead balloon. And indeed, when I try and browse the middle grade shelves for him/with him, it's notable that 90% of the books cater to girls.
As an author, I've been thinking about gender and POV a lot. My first novel (querying it now, but worried I'll have to go self-pub due to the length) was very much a coming of age story centering around two young men. While I'm happy about how the themes of race and class played out, I felt something of a miss not exploring gender more in the setting. Which is why my current project is a first-person book with a female POV. But this discussion makes me wonder if it would be misinterpreted as being "YA" just because of a female protagonist.
As a reader, one of the most fascinating things to me is how continually popular themes of nihilism are with men (both as authors and readers) and how unpopular they are with women. Obviously there are exceptions here (I know you are one yourself) but I don't know what it says about our culture and the lived experience of men and women. I have suspicions here, but as a man, I only really know half the story (if that).
Thank you so much for sharing about your experience with this topic as a father and writer! I wish there were more options for middle-grade and young adult male readers. I ran into that issue when looking for books for my nephew when he was younger.
That is such an interesting point about nihilism and young men. This might be for an older demographic, but I've heard that there's data indicating more loneliness among young men.
I think there's a greater risk of a fantasy book being labeled YA if the single-POV main protagonist is a young female, and there isn't a heavy dose of sex and violence. I wish I could say otherwise, but I can't think of many examples. Mistborn and The Last Tale of the Flower Bride might work, but I think both are marketed as YA and adult.
@@Johanna_reads My inclination is to believe that a similar proportion of folks, regardless of gender, have a deep-seated intuition that all is not right with the cosmos, or just are prone to be unhappy. If you're a woman, patriarchy is right there, staring you in the face. But if you're a man (particularly a straight white one who's reasonably well off) you need to reflect on your own discontents on a more personal level.
I also suspect that dark, edgelord worlds seem like a much safer form of exploration for men because they don't have to deal with as much shit in real life. Some might think it makes them a stronger person not looking away from the darkest elements of humanity when others would turn their face. Some might just think the stuff is a cool, fun diversion from real life. I mean, I was in my 20s before I realized that virtually all women worried at some point about being assaulted in public.
Hi Karl, I have a suggestion.. Ranger's Apprentice by John Flanagan. It's a terrific coming of age story with wonderful themes of men mentoring other men. John Flanagan was in Australian publishing yet his son wasn't interested in reading. So he wrote these stories to get his son interested in reading.
My youngest a son is also reading how to train your dragon Cressida Cowel.
For a younger boy 5-7yo Monty's Island trio of books are great.
We also do a lot of audio books.
Another Australian junior reading experience .. Weirdo by Anh Do and Ninja kid also by Anh Do
"Is it on the author or the reader?"
A bit of both. Intention behind the text can only go so far, execution and perception of the text is what matters most.
It's such an interesting topic!
looking forward to the conversation, but this is your and Bookborn's reminder to read KJ Parker. Jimmy gets a pass because I seem to recall him reading the Folding Knife, but I could be hallucinating
Jimmy read two KJ Parker books! Thanks for the reminder 😂
So glad Bookborn brought up the absence of Rey toys. I remember seeing a giant Milennium Falcon toy with Finn and Chewbacca but not Rey. I was furious. It was an insult to boys, who can recognize who the hero of the story is.
It IS an insult to boys AND furthers the idea that boys cannot like female characters of identify with them, which is just silly and untrue!
Glad to hear it! I'll have to have to ask my nephew about this who has been the biggest Star Wars toy collector!
I thought I responded to this but it's not showing up, hopefully it's not a repeat. I completely agree that it's an insult to boys! It implies that boys would never be interested or could relate to a female protagonist - which is a) not true and b) never assumed about girls when reading/watching things.
Around the conversation on Game of Thrones popularity vs HP and LOTR, I think a big part is just TV vs film, the biggest TV show of all time will never have the same number of viewers/impact as the equivalent movies
Could be! Thanks!
Very concerning that when naming relatable female characters in ASOIAF, Johanna's mind went first to Cersei Lannister 😆
This was a great discussion!
I realized what I said when watching the replay. That sounded all wrong 🤣🤣🤣
I don't know about the Arrows Trilogy, but whenever something like Magic's Pawn comes up from her Last Herald-Mage Trilogy, Misty and Larry always make it clear that they're not writing YA books in Valdemar, that they're adult books and intended that way. I think since a lot of readers since the 1980s onwards discover Valdemar in their teens, and that characters like Vanyel are so compelling that it's the first time we feel like fantasy has space for us, that it's easy to think it's therefore a YA book. (Of course, one look at the US paperback cover for Magic's Pawn makes it pretty clear the target audience for Valdemar are adults.)
I guess Lackey might be a good example of a female author whose male characters appeal to a male audience. (Though if you look at her Canadian covers, I've heard male friends up there say that they were shocked she had so many male fans in America since instead of demons and mages they got shirtless guys and sparkleponies on their covers.) Still, I think one thing about her world is that the inclusion of lgbtqia+ characters means that it feels more realistic to anyone who is (or knows) any lgbtqia+ people. A lot of fantasy back in the 80s when Magic's Pawn came out seemed to take place in a land whose greatest fantasy feature was that it was a world without any queerness. I know Ursula Vernon has joked that like most Gen X, she discovered gay people existed through Valdemar novels, but I'd never heard of ace or aro before Brightly Burning, and I picked up her newest book over the summer and there's trans and nonbinary characters seamlessly part of the story.
I was so impressed by her inclusion of lgbtqia+ when I read the Arrows Trilogy! I enjoyed her writing and character work quite a bit. I saw Goodreads reviews in which people were upset by her display of sexual violence, so I know she's not gotten an easy pass on that from some readers.
Great conversation! Very insightful and I really enjoyed hearing everyone’s opinions and personal histories with this topic. It’s something I’ve thought about a little as I’ve tried recommending books to family members. Loved the points on marketing and I think cover art leans into this discussion as well.
Thank you so much! Cover art is a really good point and part of the ongoing discussion. Some authors might not get a say in those matters, and it can certainly affect gendered marketing.
The practice of more women authors going by initials explicitly due to sexist reader preferences (or going by male pen names) has been going on for a very long time, certainly well before JK Rowling or the like, unfortunately. Heck, Mary Shelley's publication of Frankenstein in 1818 was originally anonymous, but when it was found out she was the author the book was critiqued for her femaleness! While I'm sure we are somewhat better 200 years later, we certainly still have a ways to go. It certainly feels like traditionally most sci-fi/fantasy authors that go by initials to last name are women.
Also, Robin Hobb did choose the pen name Robin intentionally to be androgynous due to concerns some readers wouldn't trust a book with a male protagonist written by a woman (according to her interviews).
I've heard some conversations by trad authors that publishers definitely pushed potential authors of YA to have female protagonists more due to the demographics and that more girls and women read - especially YA. But there is a funny tension, because some (obviously bad) traditional rules of thumb for adult fiction or for movies/television is that male leads are universal (appreciated by men and women) but female leads are just for women. So that market force may push the opposite in non-YA, non-romance adult fiction.
I think the gendering of YA has changed over time though as when I was young there were certainly many more sci-fi/fantasy books for younger people with male protagonists than female. There were some female leads (say Meg from A Wrinkle in Time), but they were more the exception. To me that period of male leaning YA protagonists lasts up through about Harry Potter. By the time the distopians came (Hunger Games, Divergent, Delirium, Matched, etc.) I think we were starting to see things swing more female focused (although you still had Maze Runner or slightly earlier Percy Jackson).
The books I've read in the last decade that I feel deal the most with gender directly certainly aren't YA, and the most interesting in gender, are more often in sci-fi than fantasy and are very often written by queer and/or trans authors (and most often by female authors too). Be that robots/ships that might have trouble with gender, or alien species with different gender practices, or what not. You can certainly directly deal with gender roles in YA fantasy (Tamora Pierce's Alanna series is a very obvious example) though for any interested.
Thank you so much for all these points! I either didn’t know or had forgetten that Mary Shelly’s Frankenstein was originally anonymous. It’s been a long while since I’ve read it. That’s interesting to learn that adult modern sci-fi is dealing with gender more head-on that fantasy. I’ll have to start looking into that!
@@Johanna_reads Obvious starting points I'd recommend would be Ancillary Justice by Ann Leckie or The Long Way to a Small, Angry Planet or even consider the agender of Murderbot by Martha Wells. Even tangentially things like identity in A Memory Called Empire with integrating memories of past lives and queer characters have some gender consideration. YMMV, but these are all excellent, excellent books and diverse types of books styles too.
If you would like to see fiction for young audiences* with complex and ambivalent endings, I'd recommend taking a look at Heinlein's juveniles, including "Podkayne of Mars" and "Farmer in the Sky". Several titles (including those two) told difficult stories and pulled no punches, and the endings were very hard. If you read Podkayne, make sure to find the original ending, which the publisher required Heinlein to change for publication, it hits very hard indeed. Oh, and Podkayne is a female protagonist, FWIW.
Some books in that series were more straight adventure fiction ("The Rolling Stones", for instance), but they're all solid reads and they're all fairly short by modern standards (generally less than 250 pages). While they were written in the '50s and show evidence of that time period in their style, Heinlein was very good at not writing down to his purported audience and I find them still very readable today.
* The series was characterized as "juvenile" by the publisher when the books were published in the 1950s, and at least one of the books (Farmer in the Sky) was published in condensed form in Boys' Life (the magazine of the Boy Scouts).
Thank you for all the young adult exceptions! 😅 I’ve only read Starship Troopers and Stranger in a Strang Land by Heinlein, but it’s interesting to know he wrote for yound audiences as well.
I'm Gen X and I was reading eipc fantasy in high school. I read McCaffrey and Lackey among others, but yes it was male dominated. But also read Sweet Valley High and the like, so I was reading female authors for more romance, so I never noticed the gender gap until adulthood.
It’s so interesting how the fantasy section has changed since then!
According to Wikipedia, Megan Lindholm deliberately chose an androgynous name (Robin Hobb) when she started writing in a different subgenre of fantasy. Where they got that info is uncertain. I remember hearing that there was a well known author behind the name and when I found out who she was I was a bit disappointed. I had almost all her books under her original name on my shelves by then. In her foreword to her short story collection 'The Inheritance' she explains how the duality came to be. There's nothing in that foreword that suggests the name was chosen for a specific reason. Only that she chose to publish under another name because she wanted to try a new voice. The foreword is available at gizmodo (published 2011) if anyone wants to read it.
Ahh, the picture is now coming together. Now that I think back on it, I’ve heard some critics say that she deliberately chose an androgynous name but later avoided any statements suggesting that was the case. Whether she had the gender-neutral intention or not, I imagine it helped her career. Thanks!
Romantsy is just repackaged Harlequin Romance books, instead of the hunky fabio man its a hunky fairy/beast man
Hahahaha! Monster smut is a growing trend in romantasy, from what I understand. While he's much older now, it would fun to see Fabio in that kind of costume. 😄
Re: Hobb: She picked Hobb because of where it sat in the alphabet and where that typically put it on bookshelves.
Interesting!
I’m only half an hour in, and I’m appreciating this conversation so much! Also, I couldn’t help but smile when Bookborn mentioned Beowulf! It’s definitely a product of a patriarchal culture, but there are subversive readings of the poem, particularly in regard to Grendel’s mother. Now back to the conversation!
That's a really good point about Grendel's mother, Philip! By the way, if you're ever interested in buddy-reading Grendel by John Gardner someday, I would love to discuss it with you!
haha you know what? When I mentioned Beowulf ALMOST mentioned Grenel's mother! I read one of the more subversive "translations" of Beowulf and found that exploration super fascinating. I didn't want to get us off topic (which I did anyway, several times in this video already haha)
@ Your “tangents” were all excellent and consisted of important points! Great discussion by all three of you!
So excited for this discussion!
Thank you!
To speak to Bookborn's point on the Star Wars toys she is right, female figures have always sold poorly because boys dont generally want to play with a female figure, or rather, most children only get a limited number of toys and therefore they usually want the main hero and often the main villain like He-Man and Skeletor or Luke and Darth Vader, there isnt really room for the Leias or Teelas and even when they can, they would rather have a different version of Batman than a Batgirl or Catwoman.
Also I think a lot of boys/men are getting their male representation, role models and power fantasies etc fulfilled by videogames now more than ever and no longer turn to books. Comics and manga also cater well to boys/men although manga does have a significant female readership, even with typical male shonen like One Piece, Naruto, Demon Slayer etc.
Traditionally, women's comics dealing in romance etc were popular (although written and drawn mostly by men) but the emergence of women's magazines focusing on male heart throbs and makeup and other things young girls/women enjoy helped to push comics out of the market space.
There was also the emergence of the Comics Code Authority that limited what could be shown in comics which caused irreparable damage (which indirectly led to Superheroes becoming so popular) and comics became seen as "lesser" than typical literature.
Only recently discovered your channel but I love your takes and these discussions have been fantastic.
That is so interesting! Thank you so much for all your points and for your support!
The only thing the author controls is what happens in the story, the marketing of a book and its reception are so mutable over time that the best thing to do is to have plenty of representation. Books for boys, books for girls, basically books for every demographic.
That's is such a true point! The marketing of a book, which authors sometimes have little control of, can have its own narrative concerning gender.
This reminds me of something silly I saw a few months back. A couple of Stephen King's novellas have been republished as stand alone and The Body which is what the classic coming of age movie Stand by me is based on was in the YA section.
Loved this discussion! These are very important topics to discuss. I loved a lot of Bookborn’s points, especially how gender norms are constantly being redefined in society. How women and men are portrayed in books says a lot about the society at the time. And there is a deeply engrained part in human nature to have to put things into patterns and categorize things, so I’m not sure if we will ever get away from this. Also it’s really funny Jimmy brought up that The Outsiders is for young boys bc the author, S. E. Hinton, is a female 😂. That was one of the books that I was forced to read for school that I loved.
Thank you! These definitions and trends constantly change, and that's a good point about how gender norms in books speaks to the time in which the book was written. I didn't know that about The Outsiders author! I'm sure Jimmy doesn't care that Hinton is female though.
@ lol right! You really wouldn’t be able to tell the author was female bc she wrote the male characters so well! It’s great when authors can write the human experience so well you can forget about the author altogether. like how Ishiguro could write the experience of a young girl growing up. And oh yes I think Jimmy doesn’t mind it’s a female author either. I just thought it was funny lol. 😊
Sorry, I'm totally watching the replay. I used to read fantasy and contemporary romance. I would much rather read romantasy to get my romance fix than contemporary romance. Because I'm a fantasy reader. I've read fantasy since I was a child. So let's stay in the genre.
It’s the best of both worlds for romance and fantasy readers! Thank you so much for watching and commenting!
Channels with women presenters that talk about fantasy are also Peruse Project and ElliotBrooks.
I enjoy both channels! Elliot Brooks focuses a bit more on YA, but both certainly focus on both age ranges.
I'm thinking now that none of the misogynism bothered me because I was very aware I was reading fantasy. I never thought about the real life implications.
That’s understandable! I think some are able to distance themselves more than others when reading a fantasy story.
47:44 Had to pause the video in light of this WHAT?! When I think about childhood male role models via books Gary Paulsen was one of my first favorite authors. Hatchet 🪓 is a big school book where I’m from at least, and after reading that I got into Canyons and, my favorite, the Mr Tucket series which is a 5 book western series for young readers. Ugh my childhood. And now I learned that he died a couple years ago and I have feels.
Thanks for sharing!
I think men can write for women. L. Frank Baum and Gregory Maguire both centered Oz in female-focused stories, most of the time. Terry Pratchett wrote the best women in fantasy: Granny Weatherwax, Gytha Ogg, Magrat Garlick, Sgt. Angua, Susan StoHelit, Sybil Ramkin, Tiffany Aching, and more.
Oh, I completely agree. I think we brought up examples in the discussion. Some of my favorite female characters were written by men.
I am very interested in the "Gendered Reading in Fantasy" topic but have no interest in the YA discussion. I was a bit disappointed that the first topic seemed to fade out quickly and that the majority of this vid is about the YA issues. I'd love to hear more concerning Gender.
I appreciate your honest feedback. I did a single video on the topic “Is it okay for books to have a gendered target audience?” That video might speak more to your interest.
While I can understand not being interested in YA fantasy, the topic is central to the gendered reading in fantasy discussion. There are several reasons why this is the case, some of which we explained in this discussion. I think was an area that I should’ve addressed more in my initial video.
What an interesting and thoughtful conversation. I think it is bad how masculinity often gets put down in a lot of books. I think men should see themselves as good in books too.
I agree! Thank you!
not sure what books you are reading. I don't get this feeling from reading fantasy and SF. Can you point out some books where you got this impression?
@@petervandeweyer517 I don’t want to name any specific book. But it just seems like only weak men are acceptable in some books
I feel like all the Canadians know Hatchet. Jimmy's reaction when they had never heard of it 😂
Maybe I need to read it! 😂
I got half way through IT and put it down but it was really the bullying that got to me more than anything. Even though I knew because how the book is structured that the all the members of the loser club would make it to adulthood every time one got cornered by the bully I was terrified for them.
I thought Henry Bowers (the bully) was unhinged and genuinely frightening at times. The domestic abuse and hate crime at the beginning was also difficult to read about. I can understand not finishing!
At 13:20 probably life stages .... Girls mature faster than boys and are ready for fantasy before boys .... Themes of YA fantasy are growth and change and becoming ....boys are playing computer games or sport just hanging out ... But young women are really confronting a very different reality we begin to have many life changes ..... Yet then the headwinds of what it means to be a woman really cuts into that reading time ...adult women serve their families intensely ... Career and parenting or caring is an extreme sport ... Men get to have more free time and head space that big epic battle fantasy entails .... Women who have had babies are tallying up the sheer number of human hours that looking after a young child requires that some author has written off for some battle feels
thousands on thousands of unpaid labour thrown away because someone has a need to read violence feel emotional.
I used to love fantasy so much ... But as I grew into an adult so much adult fantasy became absurd to me . Battle war fantasy epics became literally boring to me ... they are so narrow in their concept.
War should have been consigned to history - fantasy and science fiction represent our future .... I need violence decentered from my fantasy.
Thank you for your thoughts on this!
fascinating video
Thank you, Wera! 💜
fantastic discussion
Thank you!
Back in the 30's 40's and 50' all sf/fantasy stories that were written by female authors used their initials.
How interesting! I had no idea!
I think it’s totally cool for male authors to write for a men BUT it becomes a problem when the male perspective becomes the objective perspective. There’s ’Chick Lit’ and male lit is just lit. Throw in race and it gets even more difficult. Western fantasy’s issues are very western culturally based. You look at East Asia for example and they have so much folklore with women as the heroes.
Well said! Thank you!
The issue of young people ability to read might have something to do with how they are taught. Someone teacher came up with this new way of teaching children to read in like the 90s, I don't recall the details but it was pushed into American public schools. Long story short it turned out to be straight bad way to teach how to read and set back a generation at least of kids when it comes to reading.
You mean cueing versus phonics? That whole situation continues to be a mess!
Most people dont read. >10% of humanity reads?
Most readers dont read fantasy. >10% of readers like fantasy?
So id assume on a Venn diagram a female author and a male author are not diametrically opposed on completely different sides they are very close.
The female and the male authors are part of the very tiny same subsection of interests.
It can be good to zoom out a little and realize the people who fight the hardest are both in the same tiny club liking almost identical things and fighting over the last 10% when they both agree to 90% fantasy is awesome.
But maybe this is just the only fantasy topic im chill about and im just missing the nuances of it
Maybe! I read that fantasy is one of the top selling genres in fiction. While it’s true that most people don’t read many novels these days (if at all), I think those who do read fiction novels are highly likely to come across fantasy. Even those who don’t read will come across fantasy culture via video games, movies, tabletop games, etc.
Adult fantasy and sci-fi has a lot of really intricate things like world building that scratches the same itch as people into history or math (aka men). Men are more interesting in things, and women are more into people on average, so I think the feel of books and mange written by men or women have different vibes.
You don’t have the same expansive and intricate world building and other really nerdy stuff in YA books, and it doesn’t appeal to men as much. This is at least what I’ve gathered from the men and women around me.
Edit: it’s a lot like why channels that talk about really deep concepts like the views of early church fathers in Christianity are a large part made up by men, and why women focus more on volunteering in person.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts though it doesn’t align with my experience. I know I and several other of my female fantasy loving friends love rich setting descriptions and world-building. I know male BookTubers (like Criminolly and I think Bookish to some degree) have expressed fatigue with fantasy because of all the worldbuilding. Readers like my mother, who reads mostly classics and lit-fic, are all about the elaborate descriptions. All that to say, I don’t see this idea that men prefer intricate world-building holding weight.
Humans are hunter gatherers deep down. Fantasy in some sense is the ultimate, distilled down to it's most basic essence hunter-focused story. So it makes sense that most often it's written by men, for men, with male heroes, and why even female adult fantasy reads as if it was written for men "by men" as well.
The opposite is true in cases like Jane Austen, Bronte sisters etc. It's not at all random that their writing seems to be on the complete other side of the spectrum - a lot more focused on the immediate and pragmatic challenges of then current life and society, interpersonal relationships and group status, with female protagonists.
IMO looking at these literary sub-genres and wondering why one is male and the other female dominated, or thinking isn't this bad or strange or whatever is overthinking it. There is no greater meaning or insight behind it beyond being a reflection of the basic differences in interest and personality between men and women in general.
Thanks for sharing your very different opinions about this matter. Hope you enjoyed the video!
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The big 5 publishers have forgotten one key principle when it comes to writing: Target your audience. Instead, they have tried to become a political propaganda machine, and whether you agree with the politics or not, one thing is undeniable--it's terrible marketing advice.
This doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't put messaging in your novels. Authors have been doing this for ages. The difference now is that the big 5 is trying to use a sledgehammer to shove their ideas down peoples throats rather than using subtle messaging.
Take the Wheel of Time series in book form vs Amazon's video series as an example. Robert Jordan did an excellent job of pushing left-wing ideals in a subtle, yet powerful way that was consistent with the world, necessary to the plot, and let it speak for itself rather than trying to actually send any explicit messaging. When you look at Amazon's video interpretation, it's horrifically done. They tried to double down on the implied message, and instead beat the viewer over the head with propaganda. This angers existing fans, and makes them hate the series.
@@BruceWayne15325 Bookborn, Merphy Napier, and I had a great discussion about overt vs. subtle theming over on Merphy’s book channel. I highly recommend checking it out given your interest in the topic. By the way, I haven’t read or watched Wheel of Time, so I can’t speak on it.
That aged bad finn got screwed
I missed something 🤔😅
Hi there Hi there Hi there there
Hello!
Just want to leave this here... I read a lot of Jungian psychology and Jung put forth the idea that men have an inner feminine (the anima) and have an inner masculine (the animus). That has really helped me understand why women can relate to men/enjoy their stories and vice versa.
Thanks for sharing!
56:30. Funny how the subtext was if you didn't get what I got from a book you're stupid. Instead of, people imprint their personal biases into books and draw out what the want to see.
Overall, the reality is people think differently and like different things. Akin to how we look different from each other. The expectation that everyone should think and perceive issues as you do is ridiculous.
🐨
That's a great point!
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Thanks for stopping by!
Random thought:
How much does Tolkien’s early 20th century chauvinism and men’s only social circle influence the development of male centric fantasy and how much did George RR Martin’s more bad a heroines change fantasy.
I think both had a huge influence on this aspect of fantasy in different ways! I'm going to guess these things were rarely questioned (if ever) when Lord of the Rings became popular. After ASOAIF, I think many fantasy writers learned the power of multi-POV and the important role of less idealized female characters.
Loved this discussion.
I think a non binary perspective on this topic would give it even more depth. It would be very interesting to revisit the topic every 5 years or so to (hopefully) see trends shift in a positive direction.
I would love to hear a non-binary perspective on the topic, and I'm sure we'd have many different things to say 5 years from now with so many changing trends. Thank you!
I am just catching up on this discussion and adding some random thoughts as you folks discuss.
Jimmy just mentioned the "backlash" against the current progressive style of comics (google "Comicsgate") when THE WHOLE POINT of a series like The X-men was that it was pushing against the sexist and classist viewpoints of society.
You brought up Ursula LeGuin learning to write "like a man", but I don't know if a male writer has the life experience necessary to create a female character that's truly representative. I mean if you changed Brienne of Tarth to Bryan of Tarth, would the character be conceivably different?
(This reminds me of a video I saw years ago about country music, where someone picked through the top 25 songs by male singers and like every song mentioned drinking, trucks and women in tight jeans. All three, in all the songs...)
(p.s. Robin Hobb isn't her real name either 😁)
Interesting about X-Men, and I suppose I can see that from the two movies I watched a long, long time ago. 😅
Yes, Bryan of Tarth would be VERY different than Brienne of Tarth, in my opinion.
We all know that about Megan Lindholm (but I just found out it's actually Margaret Astrid Lindholm Ogden, which I didn't know until now)!
@Johanna_reads The problem with many "badass" female characters in fantasy is that they are indistinguishable from "badass" male characters. I mean the gender is different but they are written so much like male characters they don't stand apart.
Brienne's whole character is she is a big ugly woman wearing armor in a society where women are supposed to be gentle sex objects for men, therefore she is deemed not feminine and an outcast. How did you come to the conclusion that her gender makes no difference?
Brienne is written very differently than a “badass” male character imo. Even if that were true asoiaf has about 5 other main female character POVs that are all nuanced and different from one another. Arya is probably the character I feel most represented by in all of fantasy
@@thepacksurvives71 I 100% agree with you!