I AM into bikes and am also a life-long electronics hobb!iest. This is one of the VERY BEST introduction level troubleshooting videos, and could be helpful to nearly everyone. Good job, Clive!
That's one of the best documented modules I seen in a long while. Manufacturers rarely will give you a schematic of what's in their black box. You are usually left to guess on your own.
Well, they didn’t exactly “give” that one away. They sell it. Someone copied it out of the service manual which costs $$$ and has many warns against sharing photocopies like that. ;) Still, it isn’t any more than you’d find in a Haynes or Clymer manual, so I’m not THAT impressed. Professional auto mechanics get all the same information from a database service called “AllData.”
I bought a 1982 Yamaha (in 1982), the relay pack died in the first week, but the bike was so new I could not get a replacement for months. I replaced the relays with MOSFETS and completely forgot about the mod. In 2013, my friend still had the bike. It developed an electrical problem and the dealer said it was the relay pack and it was no longer available. so he called me over to see what I could do, turned out the wiring harness had a break in it took 2 hours to find and 5 minutes to fix. When I saw the relay pack, I remembered my mod, OMG over 30 years and it still worked!!!
The trick to cleanly desoldering those heat-sinking pins is not just a dab of fresh solder, but lead-free solder completely replaced with leaded or even using low melting temperature alloys. Basically apply new solder and suck it out a couple of times for each soldering connection. Beefier soldering iron tip and a bit higher temperature would help also. Or to use soldering iron with heater built-in into the tip, like Metcal MX-5200 or Hakko FX-951 or some of similar JBS stations. As an alternative to all of that, one could carefully dremel out the top cover to get to the relay from the other side, without desoldering all those annoying pins. Thanks for the video! Cheers!
I've run into this problem before with a non serviceable module constructed like that for a sports car and was a few hundred dollars to replace. Instead of trying to unsolder the pins to get to the back, I just dremeled the other side open and then glued the piece back on with silicon when I was finished. This module lives in the engine bay and 15 years later is still going strong.
Another more serviceable way to get into this box to replace a diode or relay would be to cut off the apposing face of the box, this would allow you to gain access to both sides of the PCB to replace the components and you wouldn't have to desolder the heavy connectors. After repairs replace the cut off face with metal or even glue/tape the old one back on.
I've had to fabricate replacements for these "black boxes" for cars that I was working on. Either the parts were not available or cost more than the car was worth, but were just some inexpensive relays and diodes. With that diagram it would be simple to replace it with better quality, more serviceable parts and for less $$ and even provide some circuit protection. BTW Clive I've been a Auto Mechanic for over 32 years and your hands make mine look like I could be a hand model. Anyway I enjoy the channel and watching you dissect all the gadgets that we all take for granted. Thanks!
Thanks for sharing this one, Clive! I agree that serviceability is important. Easy solution here is to buy an Aprilia instead. They use discrete relays...the diodes are nestled in a separate relay case, quite ingenious. If one of the diodes fails you pop in a new diode module...or if you have the inclination, the diode module is also serviceable. You can solder in a new diode and Bob's your uncle!
Very nice voice! So I am encountering the same issue, because this particular faulty relay is the light relay, which turns on automaticly when the engine is on. So yes there is excessive use of the relay. Thanks for the presentation, I will probably make a video of the change. Btw this relay costs right now about 8 euros including post at ebay.
I know this is an old post, but I have fixed them by opening the plastic housing on the back side. Gives full access to the board to replace the relay.
I just did add an external relay all thanks to the excellent autopsy done here. I use a relay from a vehicle headlight system. I had the motorcycle headlights, a voltage converter some amateur but plentiful soldering kit...and I did manage to solder it to the back of the board. I then used some voltage to trip the relay using the correct pins...and voila...the headlight came on. However...plugging it all back into the bike...it doesn't work for some reason. I only connected 4 of those pins to the relay...that small one between the two close small ones is not connected. I have to do more thinking. That is enough for one night.
Simple method for desoldering connections like this: 1.) wrap separately plastic and PCB in aluminium foil - a lot of it, leave exposed only around contacts you want to desolder 2.) using cheapest heat gun or in my case blowtorch (from reasonable distance) heat up area arround contacts untill all solder melts 3.) while hot, smash it on the ground 4.) solder back components you've accidentally desoldered
i really appreciate what Clive has shared here as it proved that desodering the pins was really too much of a challenge. So, i cut a hole in the back of the box with a dremmel and rotay saw. It only took several minutes and gave great access. Just like his, my relay 1(headlights) was bloated and the coil was open circuit. right now i am pondering putting in a meatier replacement with flying leads to it if i can't find a pin equivalent relay. Its also easy to replace the back, just fill the gap with black sealant and put a bead on top to seal it up. Also switching to LED bulbs to try as well
Think outside of the box (literally). Once you have the back off to see better how it is constructed, you could use a dremel rotary tool cutoff wheel to cut a panel off the other side for top access. When deciding whether to cut a flat panel or to take part of the sides with it, decide what materials you have on hand to reattach it later, in a way rugged enough to ensure that it won't come apart when subjected to road vibrations. For example some people might just pot it, sacrificing the ability to repair it again (once tested to be working properly), or if there is clearance where it's mounted on the bike, wrap fiberglass cloth and epoxy around it, or fill the seams with epoxy or silicone (RTV sensor safe non-acidic type sealant) and screw plates of new material on to mechanically hold the pieces together better than the epoxy or caulking alone would. Another possibility is with the standard arrangement it has with 4 screws in each corner, you could cut a flat area off the other side and run screws all the way through a replacement panel made of more robust material such as aluminum, such that it would still be durable with counter-sunk holes drilled so close to the corners, then of course you still need some epoxy or caulking to weatherproof it. Something else to think about is whether this bike's voltage regulator is prone to frequent failure. If so, the relay box circuits might be improved to resist excessive voltage (or current).
It's the headlamp relay (so 55W head, 10W tail and various instrument lights). In an emergency, you could just wiggle wires 1 and 3 out of the connector block and tape them together. You'll notice number 1 is both feed and trigger so the relay is redundant in that pathway. Number 2 is for the mostly unecessary "flash" button. More permanantly, you could just wire in a more standard 4-pole automitive relay and a couple of diodes with spade terminals "outside the box" for under a tenner.
Ah HA! I have to read this again tomorrow. I might have soldered the relay to the wrong pin...too tired now...glad for this comment though. I'll be back to re-read. :)
Puts me in mind of the Ford Crown Victoria headlight control box (used in both civilian vehicles and thousands upon thousands of police vehicles all over the world). This lighting box has a design fault that causes one of the main relays inside of it to come loose and/or burn out which causes intermittent headlight function. Slamming your fist and striking the bottom of the dash under the ash tray will sometimes get the lights to function..... until it won't, that is. The cost of this crazy module (new from a dealer) is a staggering $600-$800 USD. Even salvage yards usually charge over $100 for a working module. With a replacement relay from Digikey the box can be repaired for under $15 and by securing the relay to the PCB with some hot glue and/or placing a rubber pad or adhesive "foot" on top of the relay (that presses on the control box case when closed) will keep pressure on said relay to hold the it firmly in place will prevent such failure in the future. Like I'm sure Big Clive would agree... "Where there's a will... there's a way"!! Well.... usually, that is!! 😀 lol
You could just link terminal 1 to terminal 3 as a get you home repair. I once fixed a Stromberg carb diaphragm with a Walkers crisp packet. Lasted 2 weeks as I forgot I'd done it!
if you are in America this is why you need to support #SupportRightToRepair legislation that a few states are trying to pass .... look into it and get active
Yeah. I had blower control module go out on my Explorer, $200 dollar part from Ford. Took it apart and discovered it was a $15 transistor that had died. But getting to it was a PAIN. Why do they design stuff this way?
Modern reliability means that very few faults occur during it's expected lifespan, they are not expected to go wrong. There is no need to charge so much for replacement parts when they do fail though, that's just extortion !
well reliability in automotive enviroments is one point, but more often then not they dont design them to be serviceable, but to be cheaply built and in some cases specifically non-serviceable or designed to fail so they can charge you further
Man, when you said "desoldering pump" I immediately envisioned the automatic gun... I had an issue once with my car that the auto parts store sold me a wrong O2 heated sensor and the shit drew too much current and busted one of the transistors inside a package containing six transistors... and the thing was inside the ECM, not cheap to replace ... the part would take forever to arrive, way back in 2008-ish... so I got a TIP32C and "spliced" it in place and happily went on.. a $0.80 fix, it's been 15 years and it's still working to this day. We still have the car.
After watching this video, now you know what is underneath the top cover. You can decide to saw the top cover off close behind the connectors. This makes both sides accessible without any damage to the PCB. The case can easily repaired with a piece of plastic and glue or a heatgun. You can also design a new 3D-printed case for it that can easily take apart in future. I think I never paid $100 for such simple device if it can be fixed with some cleverness and a few bucks.
Welcome to the world of mechanics, these types of things aren't serviceable most of the time. I was a mechanic for years and most electronics like this are potted in resin or otherwise not serviceable, I used to hate knowing I could fix something but the manufacturers had built it in a way that makes it impossible.
Knowing that the board is hard to replace, in the future he could Dremel the back side plastic case and have access to the relay without desoldering the pin arrays. I certainly would try it.
fcmacken Sounds like a reasonable idea. Dremmel a hole big enough to extract and replace the faulty relay, desoldering /soldering it via the removable back panel and then glue a piece of suitable plastic over the hole side and ensure it's sufficiently weather proof. Certainly less hassle than trying to completely remove the PCB and a lot cheaper than buying the replacement Kawasaki part. The only potential pitfall is sourcing the relay but they usually have standard pin arrangements and the ones in this module appear to be no different.
I thought the same thing. That way you don't have to de-solder the connectors. You can join it back together with silicon or something when you are finished.
Yep. That's what I would do for a "pro" fix if I was dead set on not paying Kawasaki for a new relay box. Clive's suggestion is great for field repair though.
Just buy 4 of the chunkiest automotive grade relays and diodes you can get to fit and just free wire it all to the pins. unlike cars that force components side to side in corners, bikes lean so the net force is always near enough straight down. This means even basic foamy double sided tape would be enough to safely secure the relays in this application.
Good video, I agree it's really a shame to be forced to unsolder all the pins for repair, but still having screws to open the housing , which sends a strange mixed message from kawasaki about potential repairability... 🤔in my case the headlamp relay failed (stayed open: wouldn't close even after starter activation). well I just shunted it by soldering a wire between the 2 PCB pins (used AWG16 or 14 : 10 amps going into that one) now my headlamp is always on after I switch the ignition, but a lot of bikes work like that without problem... And to be honest, IMHO it's always good during winter to have some current flow to heat up the battery before activating the starter. Maybe someday I'll buy a new relay box or try your fix and change just the relay (or the diodes, whatever is faulty) but for now it works just fine. Not sure if I'm cheap or just lazy 🤣
I bought a heavy duty ERSA desoldering station second hand for something like £35 some years back. Very chunky and hollow tip and a foot pedal which engages the pump. Very handy when desoldering heavier stuff.
I had an Africa Twin, which I enjoyed very much and I am looking to forward to get another one, as soon as possible. The non-serviceability thing is so frustrating! Fortunately, same bike owners here have formed a club, and have cheaper solutions (and long lasting) to all those problems: we use different brand parts, such as a Piaggio Beverly voltage stabilizer (CDI), Daewoo Lanos fuel pump etc..
@@zx8401ztv Well, if we all stopped paying them for them ! Cars now have engine management units. I'd argue the pint they're not necessary (engines ran fine without them) so if the manufacturer decided to fit the failed thing, I'd hold them liable for its replacement.
I don't know much about electronics... Just very basic stuff... And although I don't understand most of what you're talking about, especially when you get very technical, I really enjoy your vids! And I actually get to LEARN stuff! How cool is that!? Thanks for sharing!
Great video Clive, thank you, very informative. It was the headlight relay that had failed and it would have been energised whenever the engine was running as the lights cannot be switched off, but I'm sure the regulator/rectifier problem was the cause. The box lives in a very tight space under the tank so any modifications or repairs would mean relocating it, not easy as space is very limited as you may imagine, and relocation would mean extensive modifications to the wiring loom too, so your only real solution is to replace it, unfortunately.
Someone mentioned it's a good idea to check the quality of the connection of your regulators ground connection as if it is bad the output voltage can float quite high.
Yes, I spotted that, everything seems to be working since the failed parts were replaced, but it wouldn't do any harm to check and clean all the ground connections, a job for next time I have some time off!
Some people suggested opening the box from the other side but I think a better idea would be to recreate the circuit on a piece of perfboard since it's fairly simple and maybe attach the pins to a connector making it detachable, then you can easily repair it in the future and you already have a decent case that you can re-use.
The probable reason for the two parallel diodes on pins 1 and 2 is to provide a "wired OR" circuit - that is, ether pin 1 OR pin 2 can be used to turn the relay on. If 12V is applied to pin 1, the diode on that pin is positively biased and the relay turns on. The parallel diode on pin 2, however, would be reversed biased, and that prevents the voltage on pin 1 from feeding back to the source on pin 2. The same applies in reverse when 12V is applied to pin 2.
I was trained to fault-find (and repair) electronic test gear to component level. I got out, in the '80s, when 'the fix' became complete board replacement. There was no fun or challenge in that. It made me no different from the guy 'fixing' coffee machines or photocopiers. These days it's even worse, you are expected to just pay for a whole new instrument if a capacitor fails. I just despair for humanity, really.
Pins 2 and 11 are the Headlight Relay. I think it's pretty obvious what happened, and it's not the bike's fault. Somebody modded their lights with "halos" or LEDs and shorted the relay till it fried.
03-05 Ford Crown Victoria had issue with the Lighting Control Module. The relays that controlled the headlights were marginal at best. They were being pushed really hard and didn't last very long as a result. First the headlights would start flickering randomly, and eventually stop working all together. Since its inside the car some people started repairing it by soldering wires onto the board and running them to a relay outside the module. I headed off the issue altogether by installing a relay harness that plugged into the factory headlight plugs up front and so all the module relays were doing was powering another relay. Unsurprisingly, I never had an issue. Really irratating though because its was just a penny pinch. My 02 Crown Vic has basically the same module and it has no where near the failure rate, so they mustve downgraded the relays to save a few pennies, but for most people, they would end up buying a several hundred dollar module when they gave out.
I hate lead free solder. Flows poorly, and as you say tends to be crusty. I always rework with a silver loaded solder, it's expensive but flows nicely and is good for wetting and reflowing.
Seeing how the relay box is designed it probably would be easier to cut out the top of the box with a Dremel, change the faulty relay and hot glue it back again. Saves you the trouble of having to desolder the plugs.
I work with passenger car electrical system repairs and newer cars have this issue as well. Although not so much with relays but stuff like alarm backup batteries etc. Even if they haven't stuffed the boxes full of epoxy it's still often super tricky to get them fixed without breaking something else in the progress.
You sir! Are an absolute diamond, im having the same problem with the starter relay (D) on my kawasaki z750. Was stuck trying to work out how to wire an external relay into the circuit but got stuck on the fact the pcb has diodes so at the end where you said about soldering onto the back of the board is a top tip, thank you so much, these relay boxes are stupidly expensive, even second hand they're £100+, so wish me luck 🤞
ah, the lovely integrated relay box… let us replace a handful of easily replaceable fuses and relays with a single expensive Point Of Failure… Read any Dodge truck forum and you’ll find endless streams of censorable invective. My favourite is that when they implemented their Total Integrated Power Module, they set up a computer to control a relay for the signal lights. Then they put sense lines on the feeds to the lamps. Now when the traces on the circuit board burns out, and you jumper the rear light to the feed for the front light, the computer senses a “Burned out light” and *emulates* the effect of an under-loaded flasher and blinks really fast, when in reality the load is absolutely correct. (and yes, I jumpered the lamps together because the TIPM is between 700-1500.oo used or from the dealer *IF YOU CAN GET ONE*, and it’s a nightmare to disassemble the unit and repair the PCB.
with that schematic alone one could make your own relay box with diodes. and just get a project box, make sure it's mostly waterproof, with a tiny hole down so water can get out. And relays that are designed for cars should be able to take a hit or two, plus they should be replaceable.
It helps to have a soldering iron with a larger thermal capacity to desolder these kind of connections, so you can keep the tip hot (but at a sensibly low temperature) to fully melt the solder whilst not damaging the connector housing. Alternatively I find Chip Quik (SMD1) great for desoldering troublesome connections. It can help in reducing the chance of lifting tracks and allows you to work at very low soldering temperatures. The product is aimed at surface mount components but works just as well for through-hole if used in combination with desoldering braid. About £10 a pack.
Oh wow googling and then finding my old comment on this video...... I actually am now having to repair my own relay box... Same one. Headlights have failed, and just my luck :D Managed to get the PCB out after taking ages desoldering the pins and using the little vacume pen. I really need a proper desolder gun. Anyway.... just as luck would have it. The relay part itself has been discontinued for some time :/ as has the Panasonic replacement. Right pain in the arse :/
If anyone else has the same problem and stumbles across this... A possible replacement relay part that's still manufactured today. Omron G5LE-1-E DC12 - RS part number 492-894 Ive ordered a couple and will test.
what do you mean I don't like bikes ?!! been riding bikes since I was 19, almost 50 now, still have an FZ-1 (Fazer 1000 for you guys) great vid, never thought those boxes were so low tech, you wouldn't tell by the price. than again, they seldom fail
Things have clearly improved in recent years, Japanese motorcycle manufacturers used to just encapsulate the whole box contents in opaque resin so you couldn't even see let alone get to the components, maybe resin got way more expensive?
I love your videos and I found this one particularly interesting. I hate it when manufacturers make stuff so that it's impossible to repair when it fails. I totally agree with you that they do it on purpose so that they can rip you off when you inevitably need to buy a replacement part! In this case the components would have originally cost very little but they charge you an arm and a leg for the new unit.
Now that the layout is known. Cutting off/open the opposite side of the box looks like it would give enough access to facilitate a repair wuthout the need to desolder the plugs. Then the issue of reassembly and a watertight seal presents itself. Epoxy the thing back together?
Similar issue on an old neighbor. He had a Subaru with a bad relay and the local shops wanted $150 for a replacement. I went to radio shack (this was in the 90's) and got a standard 12v relay and wired it place and that cost $5. The guy gave me $50 for less than 10 minutes of work :) He was happy I saved him $100.
Whilst I agree on your thoughts regarding lead-free solder; I always thought it was to keep it out of landfills, as opposed to any kind of toxic exposure the consumer may suffer. Lead is a neurotoxin, after all. All of those electronics piling up in dumps in third world countries has got to pose some kind of problem. Though I think the bigger problem is the absolute indifference most people seem to feel towards making sure they get their electronic waste disposed of properly. And the fact that most "proper" e-waste disposal firms end up chunking it in the landfills, regardless.
Problem with lead-free solder is that it causes more ecological problems than it solves - WAY higher failure rate = more e-waste goes to landfills and it contains a lot of other toxic stuff or release toxic gases when burned etc.
+Siana Gearz I might have said that before; I have a really short memory span. Seems like everyone here pretty much feels the same way about the lead-free junk. It can certainly go the way of the dodo as far as I'm concerned xD
Well then I might as well repeat my comment from elsewhere. I think that while keeping toxins out of landfills is a great goal, positive environmentalist goals never ever move legislation, commercial lobbying does. I think a bunch of industry heads got together and decided that electronics was still too good, too reliable, and decided to increase product churn ever so slightly by forbidding the best known solder composition. Their goal was to increase the amount of electronics in landfills rather than decrease it. But hey it's just a theory, a conspiracy theory!
Thanks Clive, very timely as I have a small desoldering job to do, good to see how an experienced person tackles desoldering, though I don't have a powered desoldering station, but good to learn a few tips for doing it manually.
I just tried your method of fluxing solder wick, and lets just say, new found love of solder wick. Was never a big fan of it before as it never seemed to work very well, but now it works freaking amazingly!
I have the same relay box in my z1000, and I'm having an issue with the fuel pump not starting up sometimes when I turn the ignition on... I get how to check the coils, and they all seem to be working. How do I check the fuel pump tester connection (7-8)? I tried the battery connection (9-10) and it works. I hooked a clip from the positive terminal on the battery to the 9 pin, and a clip from the negative terminal to the 10 pin. Then I tried to connect the two 7-8 pins with a circuit tester with a light bulb. No light. Any help please?
Been struggling searching for solution for my bike. Replacing recrifiers, starter relays, stator coils for 4-5 times.. one day, i tried to check most of electrical component.. found out they relay box gone bad.. then i changed it to a new one.. and it worked!!! Great video reference!! 👍🏼👍🏼
Hi Clive, With those kinds of connections, I've found it best to use the solder sucker, then if the pin isn't 'wiggling' freely, re solder and try again. Any really stubborn pins are re-soldered and the board mechanically lifted whilst the joint is molten.
I noticed lately some boards have the thru hole parts squeezed into the holes so there is a physical connection even before it's soldered and that makes it a real pain to repair even with the proper tools and many times a solder pad gets ripped off just like in your video.
If it's a SPST relay, you can replace it with a solid state replacement. I used the IR IPS6041 lately in a trailer light converter box. They run on a 5 volt level (easily padded down), very low quiescent current so you can leave them on the battery. Thermal and current protected, TO-220 case so it fits anywhere.
Quite common on bikes Clive... This may turn into an essay. I've talked about this on various forums and chats over the years. Usually the bike's regulator / rectifier and sometimes the generator stator too fails, usually in one of two ways... Either you get no voltage to the battery and your bike just runs out or you get a short and lots of unregulated voltage to the battery and then your electronics start dying too. So why is it common? Well my theory is that heat is the biggest killed of the diodes in a typical rectifier unit. It's hard to find details of the stator but from what i've found their duty cycle isn't up to charging a dead battery only maintaining a fully charged one, so best to keep your battery fully charged, if you constantly charge a dead battery the overload of the stator can cause them to melt. Bike batteries don't live as long as car batteries either, especially flooded lead acid ones as their plates are smaller and subject to a lot of vibration, they sulfate easier... modern AGM and gel batteries alieviate this a little but if your trying to charge a knackered battery this can also overheat the reg/rec causing a failure and potential overvoltage. So long as your batteries are always charged up and your connections good and your battery isn't ancient and in good shape there is seldom an issue, but most bikes being used part time and batteries subject to quite a lot of abuse failures are quite common, as for the reg/rec units it's kind of hit and miss as to how they will fail, if they'll go short or open, leading to either cooked electrics / boiled battery or a flat battery (usually in the middle of nowhere)
Exactly what happened on two of my Honda's. Rectifier goes, battery gets cooked (which makes it a right pain to remove the bulged/warped ex-battery from the little space it lives in!). Luckily nothing else went. I attacked the loom and changed the regulators to a bigger one from another manufacturer. I think they were Yamaha iirc. They seem to rely on the frame for the heat sink. I've see mods with fans over them before! Mine are now just bigger, but I did clean up the surfaces and use heatsink compound when I put them back.
Just wondering which kawasaki was that relay from? I have a Vulcan 2000 and my relay box looks identical. Apparently, kawasaki discontinued it and no aftermarket parts available. I saw one on ebay but it was not for sale. Hopefully, my doesn't go out. I will be searching for an extra just in case. Any thoughts? Good video by the way
I'm going to have to correct some folks here, the reason this is not intended for repair is because it's very likely a safety critical part. I worked for an Automotive electronics manufacturer, I was one of few people (out of 500+ staff) allowed to touch a soldering iron to a PCB, we we're NOT allowed to repair production failures EVEN if it was an obvious and simple fault. The potential cost of going out of process and sending a repaired unit to a car manufacturer was too high, a simple fault repair could potentially cost ££££££££££ if it developed a fault, killed someone or resulted in a batch recall. Even though this unit has developed a fault, if it had an unauthorised repair and went on to do something unexpected, the blame would fall squarely on the manufacturer. Just like with people repairing heater resistor packs in the Vauxhall Zafira and causing a fire hazard (or fitting cheap/fake replacements), the manufacturer is the one that ends up under the spot light. So they make these things hard to fix, to avoid blame for someone elses f**k ups. With the way it's designed, it would be impossible to repair without leaving evidence of a repair.
People were repairing their vehicles since forever and nothing was really wrong with it (even authorized repair centers screw up badly from time to time) and now we're heading to future where cars will start to self-destruct if you try to pop the hood without entering service authentication code, because someone could put coolant into oil filler or connect battery in reverse and blame the manufacturer.
Pretty much, I mean look at instances of car manufacturers facing criticism over throttle/brake pedals sticking...... 99% of those (looking at total number of instances against cars sold) are caused by ill fitting cheap aftermarket car mats or wearing the wrong shoes (yes i'm looking at the ladies), but the car manufacturer still gets dragged through the mud over it and it's still costs them a fortune just to assemble a team to investigate and prove what caused the issue. There is an element of protecting profits and protecting dealership service departments too, for example certain French cars were being assembled with TORX security bolts in the 1990's when TORX wasn't really available to the home mechanic.
Please sell me correct shoes to drive my car. I got money to blow and I don't want the poor car manufacturer getting in trouble. Just because a multi million dollar company can get sued over faulty equipment doesn't make it OK to fuck over all of their customers to keep their losses from law suits equal to their profit from over priced replacement parts.
A lot of people can't take responsibility for their own stupidity and manufacturers have to do their best to stop stupid people killing themselves in their cars....... Which is why for example, BMW and Audi have so many driver safety aids. As for shoes, it depends on the car, the most dangerous of footwear for driving is flip flops, and in some countries your banned from doing so.
I had a furnace control box fail on me once. I called the local HVAC place, they wanted $350 for a replacement. I popped it open and found a bad solder joint, and it's been working fine for 15 years since then. Worse, inside I found an 8051 and maybe 3 or 4 relays and a little bit of extra circuitry. I could have bought the parts in there in single quantity for < $30. And the firmware for this thing has got to be utterly trivial.
I've gone through relay replacement with my wiper switch (common problem on Mazda Rx7 FCs) and it is easier to just use a dremel to cut off the top of the plastic on the other side of the module than it is to desolder the big pins. Granted, my wiper switch does not have to be weather sealed as it is inside the car. However you could take the piece of plastic you cut out and epoxy it back in after replacing the relay.
Thanks to TH-cam & BC included, my third boiled egg was on the hob for about an hour and a half. Found sitting in a dry hot pan ! Do you think it's cooked ?
Hah! This is very topical for me. I found out today the "combination" relay on my Mercedes is no longer made. It has three relays, for the intermittent wipers, turn signals, and rear defroster. From pictures on forums it also has microcontrollers in there, too. *sigh* It's really hard to get the cover off but after that it looks like it's more repairable than this. Apparently the solder joints go bad after a while.
charlesmartin82 What Model is the Merc it would be interesting to have a look at that...Seems a bit odd to use a Micro Controller between a Switch and a relay it may just be a timer chip for intermittent wiper timing.
It's a 1994 C-class (W202). forums.mercedesclub.org.uk/showthread.php?t=62702 This has pictures of the inside. I'm hypothesizing it's for the rear window demister which according to the manual will temporarily shut off if input voltage is too low.
In terms of repair, I wonder whether you could fit a solid state relay / SCR to the back of the board, within the housing, instead of replacing it like-for-like with another NEC relay.
I rated this video 4 out of 5 because I didn't get to see the big boy's desoldering pump in action. On what grounds do you unilaterally decide what we can see on your channel? Love your videos! Thanks for sharing!
I would love to see what you'd make of a faulty PC motherboard. Probably not a lot could be done in most cases but I would very much enjoy seeing you talk about it.
The Body Control Module in my old van (2000 Pontiac Montana) seems to have a bad relay and comes in a box very much like that. I programmed a remote and was able to lock/unlock the doors for exactly one day before the unlock stopped working. I do plan to try a component level repair since these are programmed to the vehicle and stereo. My 2008 Kawasaki Ninja 250 has a CDI packaged very much like that but it’s definitely potted and has no screws. Too bad, because I wanted to add cooling after I found that they all cause the tachometer to read high when they get too hot. I tried using Arctic Silver Thermal Epoxy to glue a heat sink to the outside but it didn’t hold. Didn’t expect it to, considering the differing rate of thermal expansion for aluminum versus plastic.
My BMW motorcycle has a proper car style relay + fuse box. Also, the fuel injection, ignition systems and alternator etc. are VERY similar to standard Bosch car components! Easy fixin'!! This Kawasaki situation I'd cut into the wiring harness and use a simple common cheap sealed high current 12V automotive relay external to this box.
I used to work for a third party design house who did work for Rover, BMW, CNH, and a lot of similar companies. One of the biggest issues with the connectors is that the manufacturers do not produce a mating half as it is way cheaper to mould them in when you get past about 5000 units, as the NRE +pins is cheaper than the connector cost would be. OK you are using about £0.30 worth more glass reinforced nylon or similar but the connectors even in volume would be £0.40 or more each. Those connectors are pretty much universal now in form factor at least with the only thing changing being the pin arrangement.
Around a year ago the fan control relay in my home's HVAC unit failed and tried to kill me(with fire!). It took a few minutes to find where the smoke was coming from since it was being pumped through the entire house. I still have the charred remains of the circuit board laying around. Easy fix, but very scary.
Bet the contacts began arcing inside the relay and lit up the plastics surrounding it due to the heat. Definitely must have been a unnerving experience, not knowing what was on fire and smoke smell everywhere.
The trick with stuff like this (big pins, big ground planes) is to add a low level of background heat! I use a paint stripping hot ir gun set on it's "cool" setting (measures around 120degC) held (usually zip tied to a bent bit of old din rail!) so it constantly blows hot air over the whole unit. Warming the whole thing up to around 100degC makes it very very very much easier to add localised heat with a good soldering iron to de-solder the pins!
i keep thinking... looks like there is a bit of space between the relays and the case, what if you were to say cut the box up with a dremel to make a window and attempt to service it from the top without desoldering the connectors. and after that just stick some similar plastic to the top with a seal and screws or a strong glue?
> how do old blinker relays work? What makes them go faster if a bulb goes out? Are they compatible with LEDs? Not Clive, but... Depends on what one means with old... The really old blinker relays actually would slow down if a bulb is out as they were essentially a heater element in series with the bulbs, heating up a bi-metal strip. When hot enough it disconnected, cooled down and reconnected - repeat. As a bulb goes out, less current is drawn and it takes longer for the heater to heat the metal strip -> slower blinking. Newer cars with bulb monitoring don't need the flash rate change so can skip the sensing in the indicator relay and use a simpler fixed speed relay, meaning it doesn't care about the load and therefore will work fine with LEDs (if the monitoring will be happy is another thing) The second/middle generation (with lamp out alert) speeds up if a bulb goes out- not sure exactly how that is done, but contains something that senses the current and if current is lower than threshold it changes frequency. It doesn't care what it powers, incandescent bulbs, LED bulbs, resistors... It's just the amount of current drawn that matters. This is why adding a resistor in parallel to the bulbs when switching to LED bulbs works. Typically with incandescents there's 2x21W+5W or 47W per side. If a 21W bulb fails the used power drops to 26W, so the threshold is somewhere inbetween... >Saw an example where one bulb replaced with a ~7W LED had the system working, but if both bulbs on the same side were replaced , the indicator sped up. Meaning the system was OK with ~33W (21 + 7 + 5) but not with 19 (2*7 + 5). So if both bulbs were to be LEDs, a resistor causing a power draw of ~ 33-19 = 14W is needed. P=U^2/R, so R = U^2/P U is ~14V and P ~14W. R=14*14/14 = 14 Ohm. So a 14Ohm 20W (don't want to run right on the edge of the rated capacity) rated resistor would be a start might need tweaking so that it still would sense if a bulb failed and sped up...
jhsevs Blinker relays use a bimetallic strip and a heating element to implement a mechanical blinker without any supporting electronics. When a bulb is burned out only half as much current passes through the heating element. Thanks to the equation I^2*R, one half the current passing thorough the resistive heating element means it only heats up one quarter as much, so the bimetallic strip quickly resets since it never got as hot as it should have...and as a consequence your lights now blink much faster (though the other half of your lights, front or rear, will be blinking much slower while the other half blink quickly)
ehh no, the older ones speeded up because when a bulb blows, you lose a resistance element in the cct, hence you have a higher current flowing and the bimetallic strip then heats up more quickly. That´s also why you need to fit resistive LED bulbs if you want to retain the standard flasher relay... I=V/R
When a bulb fails, the resistance increases because the bulbs on a side are wired in parallel. Two 10 ohm resistors in parallel results in a total 5 Ohm load, Break one of the resistors and you're back to a single 10 ohm resistor. And thus the current drops. Most indicator relays since the late 80s/early 80s are not bimetal but electromechanical, ie a mechanical switch controlled by electronics, In most they sense the current and if below a threshold they double the flash rate (but not all, they're also available as 'non load sensitive')
Yeah thanks - it was late & I had a wine head on - wasn´t thinking straight: where the hell I thought it was a series cct I do no know!! :P I do remember the really old ccts when I think about it now in daytime (old as in 60´s / 70´s Lucas keep the smoke in), with one bulb out, they did indeed slow down to the point that sometimes they didn´t even flash.. the remaining bulb just came on... Thanks again for the correction!!
What about cutting a window in the bottom to remove the relay? Remove the top to get at the solder points on the relay and then drop it out the bottom. Afterwards you can epoxy on a layer of plastic to cover the window? Did something similar on my 86' Kawasaki Concours when the turn signal relay started getting spotty.
14:00 Very common 15A SPCO relay. Dozens of manufacturers make those, just a complete shame the unit wasn't designed to be servicable. That said, with 'stubborn', double sided, beefy connections, I've found the combination of hot air and the vacuum desoldering tool can shift those.
Just been reading all the comments. BC, you certainly get a reaction! FYI I Google translated Halli Galli's comment in German (one yr ago):- "The man is very good! In other videos he takes apart various devices, clarifies and shows us how we [were] ripped off with cheap China scrap and fooled. There are also things that are really dangerous. Well, watching is worth it."
I'd have put that in the "easy" repair category. It's going to be more time consuming than one would like, with all the pins to desolder, but perfectly feasible with a decent desoldering station. Desoldering those pins would be way easier than removing rectangular legged bridge rectifiers off Williams/Data East pinball power supplies if you've ever had to do one of those Clive
I remember having the regulator/rectifier go on a 1990s Honda Magna. Fortunately I had added a voltage meter a week earlier and caught it before it did any damage to anything else. Horrible replacement job - it was under the battery box which could not easily be removed. Accessible from a gap in the side lattice frame but I could get one tooth at a time on a ratchet.
Clive, what do you do with your electronics after you've taken them apart? In particular the broken or non-functional ones. Do you recycle them or try to cannibalise parts for other projects?
I know this is an old thread but I have a similar issue with the igniter unit on my late Yamaha FZR 1000. The bike has a variable exhaust valve that alters the back pressure. This valve appears to be controlled by the igniter unit. It's supposed to cycle through it's entire travel to clean off any carbon build-up but it's stopped doing it. The valve however does operate properly with the engine running. To depot or not to depot an expensive unit?
OK. And spare relays. I didn't even think of your approach to patch a new relay in. Genius. That would get you home. I wonder if the relay just burned out, or if there was something else "up the creek" that caused it to fail. I hope not. If Adrian spent 100 on a new module and that failed also; that would suck. Let us know, if you can, Clive. I hope he had a "Happy Ending".
I AM into bikes and am also a life-long electronics hobb!iest. This is one of the VERY BEST introduction level troubleshooting videos, and could be helpful to nearly everyone. Good job, Clive!
That's one of the best documented modules I seen in a long while. Manufacturers rarely will give you a schematic of what's in their black box. You are usually left to guess on your own.
Well, they didn’t exactly “give” that one away. They sell it. Someone copied it out of the service manual which costs $$$ and has many warns against sharing photocopies like that. ;) Still, it isn’t any more than you’d find in a Haynes or Clymer manual, so I’m not THAT impressed. Professional auto mechanics get all the same information from a database service called “AllData.”
I bought a 1982 Yamaha (in 1982), the relay pack died in the first week, but the bike was so new I could not get a replacement for months. I replaced the relays with MOSFETS and completely forgot about the mod. In 2013, my friend still had the bike. It developed an electrical problem and the dealer said it was the relay pack and it was no longer available. so he called me over to see what I could do, turned out the wiring harness had a break in it took 2 hours to find and 5 minutes to fix. When I saw the relay pack, I remembered my mod, OMG over 30 years and it still worked!!!
The trick to cleanly desoldering those heat-sinking pins is not just a dab of fresh solder, but lead-free solder completely replaced with leaded or even using low melting temperature alloys.
Basically apply new solder and suck it out a couple of times for each soldering connection. Beefier soldering iron tip and a bit higher temperature would help also. Or to use soldering iron with heater built-in into the tip, like Metcal MX-5200 or Hakko FX-951 or some of similar JBS stations.
As an alternative to all of that, one could carefully dremel out the top cover to get to the relay from the other side, without desoldering all those annoying pins.
Thanks for the video! Cheers!
I'm so grateful for this video. You saved me from a HUGE headache! I replaced the relay box and my motorcycle is working fine again!
I've run into this problem before with a non serviceable module constructed like that for a sports car and was a few hundred dollars to replace. Instead of trying to unsolder the pins to get to the back, I just dremeled the other side open and then glued the piece back on with silicon when I was finished. This module lives in the engine bay and 15 years later is still going strong.
Another more serviceable way to get into this box to replace a diode or relay would be to cut off the apposing face of the box, this would allow you to gain access to both sides of the PCB to replace the components and you wouldn't have to desolder the heavy connectors. After repairs replace the cut off face with metal or even glue/tape the old one back on.
I've had to fabricate replacements for these "black boxes" for cars that I was working on. Either the parts were not available or cost more than the car was worth, but were just some inexpensive relays and diodes. With that diagram it would be simple to replace it with better quality, more serviceable parts and for less $$ and even provide some circuit protection. BTW Clive I've been a Auto Mechanic for over 32 years and your hands make mine look like I could be a hand model. Anyway I enjoy the channel and watching you dissect all the gadgets that we all take for granted. Thanks!
Thanks for sharing this one, Clive! I agree that serviceability is important. Easy solution here is to buy an Aprilia instead. They use discrete relays...the diodes are nestled in a separate relay case, quite ingenious. If one of the diodes fails you pop in a new diode module...or if you have the inclination, the diode module is also serviceable. You can solder in a new diode and Bob's your uncle!
Very nice voice! So I am encountering the same issue, because this particular faulty relay is the light relay, which turns on automaticly when the engine is on. So yes there is excessive use of the relay. Thanks for the presentation, I will probably make a video of the change. Btw this relay costs right now about 8 euros including post at ebay.
I know this is an old post, but I have fixed them by opening the plastic housing on the back side. Gives full access to the board to replace the relay.
I just did add an external relay all thanks to the excellent autopsy done here. I use a relay from a vehicle headlight system. I had the motorcycle headlights, a voltage converter some amateur but plentiful soldering kit...and I did manage to solder it to the back of the board. I then used some voltage to trip the relay using the correct pins...and voila...the headlight came on. However...plugging it all back into the bike...it doesn't work for some reason. I only connected 4 of those pins to the relay...that small one between the two close small ones is not connected. I have to do more thinking. That is enough for one night.
Simple method for desoldering connections like this:
1.) wrap separately plastic and PCB in aluminium foil - a lot of it, leave exposed only around contacts you want to desolder
2.) using cheapest heat gun or in my case blowtorch (from reasonable distance) heat up area arround contacts untill all solder melts
3.) while hot, smash it on the ground
4.) solder back components you've accidentally desoldered
i really appreciate what Clive has shared here as it proved that desodering the pins was really too much of a challenge. So, i cut a hole in the back of the box with a dremmel and rotay saw. It only took several minutes and gave great access. Just like his, my relay 1(headlights) was bloated and the coil was open circuit. right now i am pondering putting in a meatier replacement with flying leads to it if i can't find a pin equivalent relay. Its also easy to replace the back, just fill the gap with black sealant and put a bead on top to seal it up. Also switching to LED bulbs to try as well
Nice work
Think outside of the box (literally). Once you have the back off to see better how it is constructed, you could use a dremel rotary tool cutoff wheel to cut a panel off the other side for top access. When deciding whether to cut a flat panel or to take part of the sides with it, decide what materials you have on hand to reattach it later, in a way rugged enough to ensure that it won't come apart when subjected to road vibrations.
For example some people might just pot it, sacrificing the ability to repair it again (once tested to be working properly), or if there is clearance where it's mounted on the bike, wrap fiberglass cloth and epoxy around it, or fill the seams with epoxy or silicone (RTV sensor safe non-acidic type sealant) and screw plates of new material on to mechanically hold the pieces together better than the epoxy or caulking alone would.
Another possibility is with the standard arrangement it has with 4 screws in each corner, you could cut a flat area off the other side and run screws all the way through a replacement panel made of more robust material such as aluminum, such that it would still be durable with counter-sunk holes drilled so close to the corners, then of course you still need some epoxy or caulking to weatherproof it.
Something else to think about is whether this bike's voltage regulator is prone to frequent failure. If so, the relay box circuits might be improved to resist excessive voltage (or current).
It's the headlamp relay (so 55W head, 10W tail and various instrument lights). In an emergency, you could just wiggle wires 1 and 3 out of the connector block and tape them together. You'll notice number 1 is both feed and trigger so the relay is redundant in that pathway. Number 2 is for the mostly unecessary "flash" button. More permanantly, you could just wire in a more standard 4-pole automitive relay and a couple of diodes with spade terminals "outside the box" for under a tenner.
Ah HA! I have to read this again tomorrow. I might have soldered the relay to the wrong pin...too tired now...glad for this comment though. I'll be back to re-read. :)
Puts me in mind of the Ford Crown Victoria headlight control box (used in both civilian vehicles and thousands upon thousands of police vehicles all over the world). This lighting box has a design fault that causes one of the main relays inside of it to come loose and/or burn out which causes intermittent headlight function. Slamming your fist and striking the bottom of the dash under the ash tray will sometimes get the lights to function..... until it won't, that is. The cost of this crazy module (new from a dealer) is a staggering $600-$800 USD. Even salvage yards usually charge over $100 for a working module. With a replacement relay from Digikey the box can be repaired for under $15 and by securing the relay to the PCB with some hot glue and/or placing a rubber pad or adhesive "foot" on top of the relay (that presses on the control box case when closed) will keep pressure on said relay to hold the it firmly in place will prevent such failure in the future. Like I'm sure Big Clive would agree... "Where there's a will... there's a way"!! Well.... usually, that is!! 😀 lol
You have the pin numbers and wiring diagram, so the easy way would be to add a temporary external relay to the wiring.
You could just link terminal 1 to terminal 3 as a get you home repair.
I once fixed a Stromberg carb diaphragm with a Walkers crisp packet. Lasted 2 weeks as I forgot I'd done it!
Nah. You were just testing it to see how long it would last. Did you fix it with another crisp packet?
It's all change the module repairs these days, god forbid they allowed you to change a $3 relay when they can charge you a $100
if you are in America this is why you need to support #SupportRightToRepair legislation that a few states are trying to pass .... look into it and get active
Yeah. I had blower control module go out on my Explorer, $200 dollar part from Ford. Took it apart and discovered it was a $15 transistor that had died. But getting to it was a PAIN. Why do they design stuff this way?
VideoGuy84 greed.
Modern reliability means that very few faults occur during it's expected lifespan, they are not expected to go wrong. There is no need to charge so much for replacement parts when they do fail though, that's just extortion !
well reliability in automotive enviroments is one point, but more often then not they dont design them to be serviceable, but to be cheaply built and in some cases specifically non-serviceable or designed to fail so they can charge you further
Man, when you said "desoldering pump" I immediately envisioned the automatic gun...
I had an issue once with my car that the auto parts store sold me a wrong O2 heated sensor and the shit drew too much current and busted one of the transistors inside a package containing six transistors... and the thing was inside the ECM, not cheap to replace ... the part would take forever to arrive, way back in 2008-ish... so I got a TIP32C and "spliced" it in place and happily went on.. a $0.80 fix, it's been 15 years and it's still working to this day. We still have the car.
After watching this video, now you know what is underneath the top cover. You can decide to saw the top cover off close behind the connectors. This makes both sides accessible without any damage to the PCB. The case can easily repaired with a piece of plastic and glue or a heatgun. You can also design a new 3D-printed case for it that can easily take apart in future. I think I never paid $100 for such simple device if it can be fixed with some cleverness and a few bucks.
Welcome to the world of mechanics, these types of things aren't serviceable most of the time. I was a mechanic for years and most electronics like this are potted in resin or otherwise not serviceable, I used to hate knowing I could fix something but the manufacturers had built it in a way that makes it impossible.
Knowing that the board is hard to replace, in the future he could Dremel the back side plastic case and have access to the relay without desoldering the pin arrays. I certainly would try it.
fcmacken
Sounds like a reasonable idea. Dremmel a hole big enough to extract and replace the faulty relay, desoldering /soldering it via the removable back panel and then glue a piece of suitable plastic over the hole side and ensure it's sufficiently weather proof. Certainly less hassle than trying to completely remove the PCB and a lot cheaper than buying the replacement Kawasaki part. The only potential pitfall is sourcing the relay but they usually have standard pin arrangements and the ones in this module appear to be no different.
I was thinking the same thing about going in through the other side. I think you could just epoxy the sawn-out part back in.
I was thinking of rebuilding the relay box to accept normal relays
If you dremelled out the component side of the box could that possibly work for a more permanent fix?
I thought the same thing. That way you don't have to de-solder the connectors. You can join it back together with silicon or something when you are finished.
Yep. That's what I would do for a "pro" fix if I was dead set on not paying Kawasaki for a new relay box. Clive's suggestion is great for field repair though.
I was thinking the same thing.
Yip, my thought too. Just Dremel the other side off and replace the relay. Glue it back. Job done.
Now that is i good idea! Full access for repairs and easy to seal back up.
clive. i recently got a desoldering pump. ok a lot dearer but what a great investment. clears most joints with one suck. its the Engineer SS-02.
If I was stuck in the middle of nowhere with a bad relay, I'd just bypass the relay... But I'd definitely repair it when I got back to civilization.
Just buy 4 of the chunkiest automotive grade relays and diodes you can get to fit and just free wire it all to the pins. unlike cars that force components side to side in corners, bikes lean so the net force is always near enough straight down. This means even basic foamy double sided tape would be enough to safely secure the relays in this application.
Good video, I agree it's really a shame to be forced to unsolder all the pins for repair, but still having screws to open the housing , which sends a strange mixed message from kawasaki about potential repairability... 🤔in my case the headlamp relay failed (stayed open: wouldn't close even after starter activation). well I just shunted it by soldering a wire between the 2 PCB pins (used AWG16 or 14 : 10 amps going into that one) now my headlamp is always on after I switch the ignition, but a lot of bikes work like that without problem... And to be honest, IMHO it's always good during winter to have some current flow to heat up the battery before activating the starter. Maybe someday I'll buy a new relay box or try your fix and change just the relay (or the diodes, whatever is faulty) but for now it works just fine. Not sure if I'm cheap or just lazy 🤣
Or just use a Dremmel to cut out the opposite side of the cover, de-solder the relay and replace then use hot glue to put the cut out cover back on.
I bought a heavy duty ERSA desoldering station second hand for something like £35 some years back. Very chunky and hollow tip and a foot pedal which engages the pump. Very handy when desoldering heavier stuff.
I had an Africa Twin, which I enjoyed very much and I am looking to forward to get another one, as soon as possible. The non-serviceability thing is so frustrating! Fortunately, same bike owners here have formed a club, and have cheaper solutions (and long lasting) to all those problems: we use different brand parts, such as a Piaggio Beverly voltage stabilizer (CDI), Daewoo Lanos fuel pump etc..
I also hate how companys make "special" devices that cost a fortune, your local club sounds spot on ;-D
@@zx8401ztv Well, if we all stopped paying them for them !
Cars now have engine management units. I'd argue the pint they're not necessary (engines ran fine without them) so if the manufacturer decided to fit the failed thing, I'd hold them liable for its replacement.
I don't know much about electronics... Just very basic stuff... And although I don't understand most of what you're talking about, especially when you get very technical, I really enjoy your vids! And I actually get to LEARN stuff! How cool is that!?
Thanks for sharing!
Great video Clive, thank you, very informative. It was the headlight relay that had failed and it would have been energised whenever the engine was running as the lights cannot be switched off, but I'm sure the regulator/rectifier problem was the cause. The box lives in a very tight space under the tank so any modifications or repairs would mean relocating it, not easy as space is very limited as you may imagine, and relocation would mean extensive modifications to the wiring loom too, so your only real solution is to replace it, unfortunately.
Someone mentioned it's a good idea to check the quality of the connection of your regulators ground connection as if it is bad the output voltage can float quite high.
Yes, I spotted that, everything seems to be working since the failed parts were replaced, but it wouldn't do any harm to check and clean all the ground connections, a job for next time I have some time off!
Some people suggested opening the box from the other side but I think a better idea would be to recreate the circuit on a piece of perfboard since it's fairly simple and maybe attach the pins to a connector making it detachable, then you can easily repair it in the future and you already have a decent case that you can re-use.
The probable reason for the two parallel diodes on pins 1 and 2 is to provide a "wired OR" circuit - that is, ether pin 1 OR pin 2 can be used to turn the relay on. If 12V is applied to pin 1, the diode on that pin is positively biased and the relay turns on. The parallel diode on pin 2, however, would be reversed biased, and that prevents the voltage on pin 1 from feeding back to the source on pin 2. The same applies in reverse when 12V is applied to pin 2.
I was trained to fault-find (and repair) electronic test gear to component level. I got out, in the '80s, when 'the fix' became complete board replacement. There was no fun or challenge in that. It made me no different from the guy 'fixing' coffee machines or photocopiers. These days it's even worse, you are expected to just pay for a whole new instrument if a capacitor fails. I just despair for humanity, really.
Pins 2 and 11 are the Headlight Relay. I think it's pretty obvious what happened, and it's not the bike's fault. Somebody modded their lights with "halos" or LEDs and shorted the relay till it fried.
03-05 Ford Crown Victoria had issue with the Lighting Control Module. The relays that controlled the headlights were marginal at best. They were being pushed really hard and didn't last very long as a result. First the headlights would start flickering randomly, and eventually stop working all together. Since its inside the car some people started repairing it by soldering wires onto the board and running them to a relay outside the module. I headed off the issue altogether by installing a relay harness that plugged into the factory headlight plugs up front and so all the module relays were doing was powering another relay. Unsurprisingly, I never had an issue. Really irratating though because its was just a penny pinch. My 02 Crown Vic has basically the same module and it has no where near the failure rate, so they mustve downgraded the relays to save a few pennies, but for most people, they would end up buying a several hundred dollar module when they gave out.
I hate lead free solder. Flows poorly, and as you say tends to be crusty. I always rework with a silver loaded solder, it's expensive but flows nicely and is good for wetting and reflowing.
Seeing how the relay box is designed it probably would be easier to cut out the top of the box with a Dremel, change the faulty relay and hot glue it back again. Saves you the trouble of having to desolder the plugs.
I work with passenger car electrical system repairs and newer cars have this issue as well. Although not so much with relays but stuff like alarm backup batteries etc. Even if they haven't stuffed the boxes full of epoxy it's still often super tricky to get them fixed without breaking something else in the progress.
Learning more from you than I did from my Tech Studies class when I was in school.
Patch a relay onto the pads then cut a square hole in the lid so the lid can still go on then waterproof around that square hole maybe?
You sir! Are an absolute diamond, im having the same problem with the starter relay (D) on my kawasaki z750. Was stuck trying to work out how to wire an external relay into the circuit but got stuck on the fact the pcb has diodes so at the end where you said about soldering onto the back of the board is a top tip, thank you so much, these relay boxes are stupidly expensive, even second hand they're £100+, so wish me luck 🤞
ah, the lovely integrated relay box… let us replace a handful of easily replaceable fuses and relays with a single expensive Point Of Failure… Read any Dodge truck forum and you’ll find endless streams of censorable invective. My favourite is that when they implemented their Total Integrated Power Module, they set up a computer to control a relay for the signal lights. Then they put sense lines on the feeds to the lamps. Now when the traces on the circuit board burns out, and you jumper the rear light to the feed for the front light, the computer senses a “Burned out light” and *emulates* the effect of an under-loaded flasher and blinks really fast, when in reality the load is absolutely correct. (and yes, I jumpered the lamps together because the TIPM is between 700-1500.oo used or from the dealer *IF YOU CAN GET ONE*, and it’s a nightmare to disassemble the unit and repair the PCB.
with that schematic alone one could make your own relay box with diodes. and just get a project box, make sure it's mostly waterproof, with a tiny hole down so water can get out. And relays that are designed for cars should be able to take a hit or two, plus they should be replaceable.
Mine doesn't ever get wet. Maybe humidity, but not actual water, cuz the battery is right below it.
you could whip up a new board on sum vero or just do point to point wiring and fit it back in the box.
getting the proper connectors is usually a total pain in the ass. It really is an emergency only repair.
use original connectors and use original old box as frame
Good luck finding those Japanese relays.
It helps to have a soldering iron with a larger thermal capacity to desolder these kind of connections, so you can keep the tip hot (but at a sensibly low temperature) to fully melt the solder whilst not damaging the connector housing. Alternatively I find Chip Quik (SMD1) great for desoldering troublesome connections. It can help in reducing the chance of lifting tracks and allows you to work at very low soldering temperatures. The product is aimed at surface mount components but works just as well for through-hole if used in combination with desoldering braid. About £10 a pack.
Oh wow googling and then finding my old comment on this video...... I actually am now having to repair my own relay box... Same one. Headlights have failed, and just my luck :D
Managed to get the PCB out after taking ages desoldering the pins and using the little vacume pen.
I really need a proper desolder gun.
Anyway....
just as luck would have it. The relay part itself has been discontinued for some time :/ as has the Panasonic replacement. Right pain in the arse :/
omg rewatching the video in full... its the same fault as i have D:
If anyone else has the same problem and stumbles across this... A possible replacement relay part that's still manufactured today. Omron G5LE-1-E DC12 - RS part number 492-894 Ive ordered a couple and will test.
what do you mean I don't like bikes ?!! been riding bikes since I was 19, almost 50 now, still have an FZ-1 (Fazer 1000 for you guys)
great vid, never thought those boxes were so low tech, you wouldn't tell by the price.
than again, they seldom fail
A very enjoyable step through diagnosis of a broken relay box. This sort of video makes a welcome change to the Chinese led lights.
Things have clearly improved in recent years, Japanese motorcycle manufacturers used to just encapsulate the whole box contents in opaque resin so you couldn't even see let alone get to the components, maybe resin got way more expensive?
I love your videos and I found this one particularly interesting. I hate it when manufacturers make stuff so that it's impossible to repair when it fails. I totally agree with you that they do it on purpose so that they can rip you off when you inevitably need to buy a replacement part! In this case the components would have originally cost very little but they charge you an arm and a leg for the new unit.
Now that the layout is known. Cutting off/open the opposite side of the box looks like it would give enough access to facilitate a repair wuthout the need to desolder the plugs. Then the issue of reassembly and a watertight seal presents itself. Epoxy the thing back together?
Or pot it with the re-enterable gel for electrical enclosures.
Similar issue on an old neighbor. He had a Subaru with a bad relay and the local shops wanted $150 for a replacement. I went to radio shack (this was in the 90's) and got a standard 12v relay and wired it place and that cost $5. The guy gave me $50 for less than 10 minutes of work :) He was happy I saved him $100.
Whilst I agree on your thoughts regarding lead-free solder; I always thought it was to keep it out of landfills, as opposed to any kind of toxic exposure the consumer may suffer. Lead is a neurotoxin, after all.
All of those electronics piling up in dumps in third world countries has got to pose some kind of problem. Though I think the bigger problem is the absolute indifference most people seem to feel towards making sure they get their electronic waste disposed of properly. And the fact that most "proper" e-waste disposal firms end up chunking it in the landfills, regardless.
I have an impression i may have read this comment word for word on another video.
Problem with lead-free solder is that it causes more ecological problems than it solves - WAY higher failure rate = more e-waste goes to landfills and it contains a lot of other toxic stuff or release toxic gases when burned etc.
Exactly. Many question why electronics nowadays last way less. A lot has to do with the lead-free solder.
+Siana Gearz I might have said that before; I have a really short memory span.
Seems like everyone here pretty much feels the same way about the lead-free junk. It can certainly go the way of the dodo as far as I'm concerned xD
Well then I might as well repeat my comment from elsewhere. I think that while keeping toxins out of landfills is a great goal, positive environmentalist goals never ever move legislation, commercial lobbying does. I think a bunch of industry heads got together and decided that electronics was still too good, too reliable, and decided to increase product churn ever so slightly by forbidding the best known solder composition. Their goal was to increase the amount of electronics in landfills rather than decrease it. But hey it's just a theory, a conspiracy theory!
Thanks Clive, very timely as I have a small desoldering job to do, good to see how an experienced person tackles desoldering, though I don't have a powered desoldering station, but good to learn a few tips for doing it manually.
£100! And they wonder why people buy non-genuine parts.
0:52 "It relay is literally just reallys."
I just tried your method of fluxing solder wick, and lets just say, new found love of solder wick.
Was never a big fan of it before as it never seemed to work very well, but now it works freaking amazingly!
I have the same relay box in my z1000, and I'm having an issue with the fuel pump not starting up sometimes when I turn the ignition on... I get how to check the coils, and they all seem to be working. How do I check the fuel pump tester connection (7-8)? I tried the battery connection (9-10) and it works. I hooked a clip from the positive terminal on the battery to the 9 pin, and a clip from the negative terminal to the 10 pin. Then I tried to connect the two 7-8 pins with a circuit tester with a light bulb. No light. Any help please?
Been struggling searching for solution for my bike. Replacing recrifiers, starter relays, stator coils for 4-5 times.. one day, i tried to check most of electrical component.. found out they relay box gone bad.. then i changed it to a new one.. and it worked!!! Great video reference!! 👍🏼👍🏼
I would like to know how can I get a new one, searching on Amazon is useless and eBay has only used ones please assist me
Hi Clive,
With those kinds of connections, I've found it best to use the solder sucker, then if the pin isn't 'wiggling' freely, re solder and try again.
Any really stubborn pins are re-soldered and the board mechanically lifted whilst the joint is molten.
I noticed lately some boards have the thru hole parts squeezed into the holes so there is a physical connection even before it's soldered and that makes it a real pain to repair even with the proper tools and many times a solder pad gets ripped off just like in your video.
If it's a SPST relay, you can replace it with a solid state replacement. I used the IR IPS6041 lately in a trailer light converter box. They run on a 5 volt level (easily padded down), very low quiescent current so you can leave them on the battery. Thermal and current protected, TO-220 case so it fits anywhere.
Quite common on bikes Clive... This may turn into an essay. I've talked about this on various forums and chats over the years. Usually the bike's regulator / rectifier and sometimes the generator stator too fails, usually in one of two ways... Either you get no voltage to the battery and your bike just runs out or you get a short and lots of unregulated voltage to the battery and then your electronics start dying too. So why is it common? Well my theory is that heat is the biggest killed of the diodes in a typical rectifier unit. It's hard to find details of the stator but from what i've found their duty cycle isn't up to charging a dead battery only maintaining a fully charged one, so best to keep your battery fully charged, if you constantly charge a dead battery the overload of the stator can cause them to melt. Bike batteries don't live as long as car batteries either, especially flooded lead acid ones as their plates are smaller and subject to a lot of vibration, they sulfate easier... modern AGM and gel batteries alieviate this a little but if your trying to charge a knackered battery this can also overheat the reg/rec causing a failure and potential overvoltage. So long as your batteries are always charged up and your connections good and your battery isn't ancient and in good shape there is seldom an issue, but most bikes being used part time and batteries subject to quite a lot of abuse failures are quite common, as for the reg/rec units it's kind of hit and miss as to how they will fail, if they'll go short or open, leading to either cooked electrics / boiled battery or a flat battery (usually in the middle of nowhere)
The reg/rec is a separate unit, this one is just for light switches
Exactly what happened on two of my Honda's. Rectifier goes, battery gets cooked (which makes it a right pain to remove the bulged/warped ex-battery from the little space it lives in!). Luckily nothing else went.
I attacked the loom and changed the regulators to a bigger one from another manufacturer. I think they were Yamaha iirc.
They seem to rely on the frame for the heat sink. I've see mods with fans over them before!
Mine are now just bigger, but I did clean up the surfaces and use heatsink compound when I put them back.
Car alternators have thermal overload protection - so if charging a dead battery, they get too hot, their output is reduced.
Just wondering which kawasaki was that relay from? I have a Vulcan 2000 and my relay box looks identical. Apparently, kawasaki discontinued it and no aftermarket parts available. I saw one on ebay but it was not for sale. Hopefully, my doesn't go out. I will be searching for an extra just in case. Any thoughts? Good video by the way
Not sure the exact model this was in, but I'd guess it's a standard component between models.
I'm going to have to correct some folks here, the reason this is not intended for repair is because it's very likely a safety critical part. I worked for an Automotive electronics manufacturer, I was one of few people (out of 500+ staff) allowed to touch a soldering iron to a PCB, we we're NOT allowed to repair production failures EVEN if it was an obvious and simple fault.
The potential cost of going out of process and sending a repaired unit to a car manufacturer was too high, a simple fault repair could potentially cost ££££££££££ if it developed a fault, killed someone or resulted in a batch recall.
Even though this unit has developed a fault, if it had an unauthorised repair and went on to do something unexpected, the blame would fall squarely on the manufacturer.
Just like with people repairing heater resistor packs in the Vauxhall Zafira and causing a fire hazard (or fitting cheap/fake replacements), the manufacturer is the one that ends up under the spot light.
So they make these things hard to fix, to avoid blame for someone elses f**k ups. With the way it's designed, it would be impossible to repair without leaving evidence of a repair.
People were repairing their vehicles since forever and nothing was really wrong with it (even authorized repair centers screw up badly from time to time) and now we're heading to future where cars will start to self-destruct if you try to pop the hood without entering service authentication code, because someone could put coolant into oil filler or connect battery in reverse and blame the manufacturer.
Pretty much, I mean look at instances of car manufacturers facing criticism over throttle/brake pedals sticking...... 99% of those (looking at total number of instances against cars sold) are caused by ill fitting cheap aftermarket car mats or wearing the wrong shoes (yes i'm looking at the ladies), but the car manufacturer still gets dragged through the mud over it and it's still costs them a fortune just to assemble a team to investigate and prove what caused the issue.
There is an element of protecting profits and protecting dealership service departments too, for example certain French cars were being assembled with TORX security bolts in the 1990's when TORX wasn't really available to the home mechanic.
kroplaaaa every part can be tested on a car..... Simple, its not the space shuttle
Please sell me correct shoes to drive my car. I got money to blow and I don't want the poor car manufacturer getting in trouble. Just because a multi million dollar company can get sued over faulty equipment doesn't make it OK to fuck over all of their customers to keep their losses from law suits equal to their profit from over priced replacement parts.
A lot of people can't take responsibility for their own stupidity and manufacturers have to do their best to stop stupid people killing themselves in their cars....... Which is why for example, BMW and Audi have so many driver safety aids.
As for shoes, it depends on the car, the most dangerous of footwear for driving is flip flops, and in some countries your banned from doing so.
I had a furnace control box fail on me once. I called the local HVAC place, they wanted $350 for a replacement. I popped it open and found a bad solder joint, and it's been working fine for 15 years since then.
Worse, inside I found an 8051 and maybe 3 or 4 relays and a little bit of extra circuitry. I could have bought the parts in there in single quantity for < $30. And the firmware for this thing has got to be utterly trivial.
I've gone through relay replacement with my wiper switch (common problem on Mazda Rx7 FCs) and it is easier to just use a dremel to cut off the top of the plastic on the other side of the module than it is to desolder the big pins.
Granted, my wiper switch does not have to be weather sealed as it is inside the car. However you could take the piece of plastic you cut out and epoxy it back in after replacing the relay.
Thx for taking an automotive part to bits. Happy to see more.
Thanks to TH-cam & BC included, my third boiled egg was on the hob for about an hour and a half. Found sitting in a dry hot pan !
Do you think it's cooked ?
It might be worth adding some water and giving it another half hour.
Hah! This is very topical for me. I found out today the "combination" relay on my Mercedes is no longer made. It has three relays, for the intermittent wipers, turn signals, and rear defroster. From pictures on forums it also has microcontrollers in there, too. *sigh* It's really hard to get the cover off but after that it looks like it's more repairable than this. Apparently the solder joints go bad after a while.
charlesmartin82 What Model is the Merc it would be interesting to have a look at that...Seems a bit odd to use a Micro Controller between a Switch and a relay it may just be a timer chip for intermittent wiper timing.
It's a 1994 C-class (W202).
forums.mercedesclub.org.uk/showthread.php?t=62702
This has pictures of the inside. I'm hypothesizing it's for the rear window demister which according to the manual will temporarily shut off if input voltage is too low.
I've no experience of them but this lot have been fixing unfixable car electronics for some time: /www.bba-reman.com
In terms of repair, I wonder whether you could fit a solid state relay / SCR to the back of the board, within the housing, instead of replacing it like-for-like with another NEC relay.
I would have done the same, extend the wires and search a nice, cosy place for the new relays
I rated this video 4 out of 5 because I didn't get to see the big boy's desoldering pump in action. On what grounds do you unilaterally decide what we can see on your channel?
Love your videos! Thanks for sharing!
i am so happy that even for a video you have stopped tearing apart lights .
I would love to see what you'd make of a faulty PC motherboard. Probably not a lot could be done in most cases but I would very much enjoy seeing you talk about it.
The Body Control Module in my old van (2000 Pontiac Montana) seems to have a bad relay and comes in a box very much like that. I programmed a remote and was able to lock/unlock the doors for exactly one day before the unlock stopped working. I do plan to try a component level repair since these are programmed to the vehicle and stereo. My 2008 Kawasaki Ninja 250 has a CDI packaged very much like that but it’s definitely potted and has no screws. Too bad, because I wanted to add cooling after I found that they all cause the tachometer to read high when they get too hot. I tried using Arctic Silver Thermal Epoxy to glue a heat sink to the outside but it didn’t hold. Didn’t expect it to, considering the differing rate of thermal expansion for aluminum versus plastic.
So the term " No user serviceable parts inside" doesn't apply to those willing to work at it. Love your channel!
A while back there was a video where Clive said something along the lines of "So you can't replace it. ** Well, we can, but a normal user can't."
My BMW motorcycle has a proper car style relay + fuse box. Also, the fuel injection, ignition systems and alternator etc. are VERY similar to standard Bosch car components! Easy fixin'!! This Kawasaki situation I'd cut into the wiring harness and use a simple common cheap sealed high current 12V automotive relay external to this box.
I used to work for a third party design house who did work for Rover, BMW, CNH, and a lot of similar companies. One of the biggest issues with the connectors is that the manufacturers do not produce a mating half as it is way cheaper to mould them in when you get past about 5000 units, as the NRE +pins is cheaper than the connector cost would be. OK you are using about £0.30 worth more glass reinforced nylon or similar but the connectors even in volume would be £0.40 or more each. Those connectors are pretty much universal now in form factor at least with the only thing changing being the pin arrangement.
Around a year ago the fan control relay in my home's HVAC unit failed and tried to kill me(with fire!). It took a few minutes to find where the smoke was coming from since it was being pumped through the entire house. I still have the charred remains of the circuit board laying around.
Easy fix, but very scary.
Bet the contacts began arcing inside the relay and lit up the plastics surrounding it due to the heat. Definitely must have been a unnerving experience, not knowing what was on fire and smoke smell everywhere.
The trick with stuff like this (big pins, big ground planes) is to add a low level of background heat! I use a paint stripping hot ir gun set on it's "cool" setting (measures around 120degC) held (usually zip tied to a bent bit of old din rail!) so it constantly blows hot air over the whole unit. Warming the whole thing up to around 100degC makes it very very very much easier to add localised heat with a good soldering iron to de-solder the pins!
i keep thinking... looks like there is a bit of space between the relays and the case, what if you were to say cut the box up with a dremel to make a window and attempt to service it from the top without desoldering the connectors. and after that just stick some similar plastic to the top with a seal and screws or a strong glue?
you checked 2 ---> 11 but not 1 ----> 11 ? audio and video are excellent . rh looking much better. thanks for the fascinating videos.
If that one diode failed it may have worked but I think he had confidence it was the relay.
Hey Clive, how do old blinker relays work? What makes them go faster if a bulb goes out? Are they compatible with LEDs?
> how do old blinker relays work? What makes them go faster if a bulb goes out? Are they compatible with LEDs?
Not Clive, but...
Depends on what one means with old...
The really old blinker relays actually would slow down if a bulb is out as they were essentially a heater element in series with the bulbs, heating up a bi-metal strip. When hot enough it disconnected, cooled down and reconnected - repeat. As a bulb goes out, less current is drawn and it takes longer for the heater to heat the metal strip -> slower blinking.
Newer cars with bulb monitoring don't need the flash rate change so can skip the sensing in the indicator relay and use a simpler fixed speed relay, meaning it doesn't care about the load and therefore will work fine with LEDs (if the monitoring will be happy is another thing)
The second/middle generation (with lamp out alert) speeds up if a bulb goes out- not sure exactly how that is done, but contains something that senses the current and if current is lower than threshold it changes frequency.
It doesn't care what it powers, incandescent bulbs, LED bulbs, resistors... It's just the amount of current drawn that matters. This is why adding a resistor in parallel to the bulbs when switching to LED bulbs works.
Typically with incandescents there's 2x21W+5W or 47W per side. If a 21W bulb fails the used power drops to 26W, so the threshold is somewhere inbetween...
>Saw an example where one bulb replaced with a ~7W LED had the system working, but if both bulbs on the same side were replaced , the indicator sped up. Meaning the system was OK with ~33W (21 + 7 + 5) but not with 19 (2*7 + 5). So if both bulbs were to be LEDs, a resistor causing a power draw of ~ 33-19 = 14W is needed.
P=U^2/R, so R = U^2/P
U is ~14V and P ~14W. R=14*14/14 = 14 Ohm. So a 14Ohm 20W (don't want to run right on the edge of the rated capacity) rated resistor would be a start might need tweaking so that it still would sense if a bulb failed and sped up...
jhsevs Blinker relays use a bimetallic strip and a heating element to implement a mechanical blinker without any supporting electronics. When a bulb is burned out only half as much current passes through the heating element. Thanks to the equation I^2*R, one half the current passing thorough the resistive heating element means it only heats up one quarter as much, so the bimetallic strip quickly resets since it never got as hot as it should have...and as a consequence your lights now blink much faster (though the other half of your lights, front or rear, will be blinking much slower while the other half blink quickly)
ehh no, the older ones speeded up because when a bulb blows, you lose a resistance element in the cct, hence you have a higher current flowing and the bimetallic strip then heats up more quickly. That´s also why you need to fit resistive LED bulbs if you want to retain the standard flasher relay... I=V/R
When a bulb fails, the resistance increases because the bulbs on a side are wired in parallel. Two 10 ohm resistors in parallel results in a total 5 Ohm load, Break one of the resistors and you're back to a single 10 ohm resistor. And thus the current drops.
Most indicator relays since the late 80s/early 80s are not bimetal but electromechanical, ie a mechanical switch controlled by electronics, In most they sense the current and if below a threshold they double the flash rate (but not all, they're also available as 'non load sensitive')
Yeah thanks - it was late & I had a wine head on - wasn´t thinking straight: where the hell I thought it was a series cct I do no know!! :P
I do remember the really old ccts when I think about it now in daytime (old as in 60´s / 70´s Lucas keep the smoke in), with one bulb out, they did indeed slow down to the point that sometimes they didn´t even flash.. the remaining bulb just came on...
Thanks again for the correction!!
With the upmost respect for your post I read a lot of responses and could not find what the part effected. Spark fuel or both.??
What about cutting a window in the bottom to remove the relay? Remove the top to get at the solder points on the relay and then drop it out the bottom. Afterwards you can epoxy on a layer of plastic to cover the window? Did something similar on my 86' Kawasaki Concours when the turn signal relay started getting spotty.
My thoughts exactly...
Jared Shadley you could likely 3D print a new case
14:00 Very common 15A SPCO relay. Dozens of manufacturers make those, just a complete shame the unit wasn't designed to be servicable. That said, with 'stubborn', double sided, beefy connections, I've found the combination of hot air and the vacuum desoldering tool can shift those.
Just been reading all the comments. BC, you certainly get a reaction! FYI I Google translated Halli Galli's comment in German (one yr ago):- "The man is very good! In other videos he takes apart various devices, clarifies and shows us how we [were] ripped off with cheap China scrap and fooled. There are also things that are really dangerous. Well, watching is worth it."
Instead of the effort to remove the boasrd, I think I would have wired in a new relay and let it dangle off to the side.....faster
I'd have put that in the "easy" repair category. It's going to be more time consuming than one would like, with all the pins to desolder, but perfectly feasible with a decent desoldering station. Desoldering those pins would be way easier than removing rectangular legged bridge rectifiers off Williams/Data East pinball power supplies if you've ever had to do one of those Clive
I remember having the regulator/rectifier go on a 1990s Honda Magna. Fortunately I had added a voltage meter a week earlier and caught it before it did any damage to anything else. Horrible replacement job - it was under the battery box which could not easily be removed. Accessible from a gap in the side lattice frame but I could get one tooth at a time on a ratchet.
Won't it be easier to saw off the top and and glue it back on instand of Desoldering the board
In hindsight that could be an easier option.
what kind of soldering gun do you have?
Clive, what do you do with your electronics after you've taken them apart? In particular the broken or non-functional ones.
Do you recycle them or try to cannibalise parts for other projects?
I'm curious as to why you did not try pin #1 to determine if the diode between pin #2 and the coil was open.
That looks 100% serviceable and the faulty relay is a standard relay!
It's harder to get into some surround sound receivers.
You could also cut off the top layer of the case - it would give You some access to the PCB instead of desoldering all the pads ;).
Rattlus Yes, and then, just put the cover on again and tape it together for future fixes.
I know this is an old thread but I have a similar issue with the igniter unit on my late Yamaha FZR 1000. The bike has a variable exhaust valve that alters the back pressure. This valve appears to be controlled by the igniter unit. It's supposed to cycle through it's entire travel to clean off any carbon build-up but it's stopped doing it. The valve however does operate properly with the engine running. To depot or not to depot an expensive unit?
OK. And spare relays. I didn't even think of your approach to patch a new relay in. Genius. That would get you home. I wonder if the relay just burned out, or if there was something else "up the creek" that caused it to fail. I hope not. If Adrian spent 100 on a new module and that failed also; that would suck. Let us know, if you can, Clive. I hope he had a "Happy Ending".