Just wanted to say I looked up belt and holster still going strong 4 years later. Will have to check out next time in Jackson as always thanks Ian keep being awesome.
Must say I love how well Ian enunciates when he speaks. Very well spoken and knowledgeable. Love this channel for the information. Would love more breakdowns of the weapons and systems used.
Watching this in the year of 2020, and it gave me a laugh when Ian optimistically mentions the future of the the Hudson H9. It's unfortunate what happened, but it's good that Forgotten Weapons is here to chronicle these sort of happenings.
Hi Ian. You are so spot on. Such a living treasure in the Firearms World. I was an Armourer in the Australian Army and really concur with You. I love Your work, Man. Thanks. Keep up the good work !!!!!!!
Your story about your friend of a friend almost brought a tear to my eye. How someone could look at those papers and think they're trash is beyond me. You're doing great work trying to prevent the loss of history Ian.
I think the 30 rnd magazine, is the largest capacity, least curved, shortest, most out of the way, reliable magazine size that is easy and economical to make.
Ian, Argentinean is also correct! My parents are both from close to Buenos Aires and they've never said "Argentine" in their life! My guess is that "Argentine" is probably a British thing (I live in Boston) Love the videos!
13:36 THANK YOU!! so sickj of ppl calling the AR direct gas impingement. Stoner was a genius his system works amazing. reducing recoil is one of the best advantages.
Great Video again! But I got to correct the question of the swiss ammo packeging; it is dividable trough 6 like he said and de mags were based on the number of 6. That said the ammo is packed in 460 round boxes, 60 round bricks, but then into 10 round boxes. Greetings from a active swiss soldier and thanks for the great video again!
interesting note on sporting purpose squeeze bores. Yes there were a few sporting purpose squeeze bore rifles, but they are rare . A batch of rifles were made here in Australia back in the 70's or 80's i think by Myra arms that fired standard .22lr through a squeeze bore down to .20 and .17 ( i think i recall a .14 was tried but couldnt be stabilised). I dont have much info on it, as far as i could figure out the barrel was bored and rifled to the exit diameter and chambered with a special .22lr reamer with a really long throat ( sort of like a forcing cone ( i call it that)). They were flat shooting with a fair bit of gain in velocity. i dont know what actions they were fitted to, but i guess the would have to be pretty strong. I dont know the barrel life, But i have seen a few around that have been used quite a fair bit and still are accurate, so i guess they have a good barrel life.
Purdue ! your comments are spot on. I just hit this video. I was there in 1986 + - Then it was Ruger Mark 1 and Fienwerkbau air pistols. I was better in Air which was a new sport for me and it has helped so much for anything I have done since. Currently an instructor.
for military rifles, I suspect the future adoptions will be modular designs. ex. need a SAW, add a bull barrel, change to open bolt firing mode. CQB, change for a short barrel and fold in the stock, but all use the exact same receivers and just will change the barrel, mag, firing mode, etc to fit the mission, yet keeping logistics minimal at the same time. the current G36 series is a great example of an attempt at this.
The problem with a convertible AR/MG is that the gun needs to be durable enough for enduring the rigors of constant full-auto fire. This adds weight to it as a rifle, where it needs to be light and doesn't need to be able to withstand the heat and wear from firing hundreds of rounds in a typical engagement. Obviously economically viable and producable wonder-materials can fix this quandry, but we don't have those yet.
TJbrena I agree completely. That was essentially a best case scenario for a future system. We don't have any materials to economically produce reliable receivers of that type. Sure titanium would work, but your platoon of weapons will cost as much as a bloody IFV.
Andrew Legg titanium is a wonderful material, unless you're machining large quantities of it. In that case, you have to be exceptionally careful, because titanium with a high surface to mass ratio burns, and burns rather bright and hot. you can't easily forge the stuff, and, if you're resorting automated c&c machining, you need a rather sizable footprint, per component, to manufacture your parts. titanium is nifty stuff, but is both pricey enough and risky enough to deal with to be prohibitive for large scale manufacture.
One thing you missed about singel shot .22 rifels as training rifels in the military is that the fact that they are very difrent from the "battle" rifles is in itself a point. Many millitarys have programs for youth and since training children for war is frowned upon a very simple rifle makes it easier to claim that you'r only training marksmanship and not soldiers.
The British Army does not use single shot 0.22 rimfire for training soldiers, it used a HK conversion kit that fits inside the standard SA80 and before that one in the SLR to fire 0.22 rimfire. I suspect the question poster had mixed up the new No 9 rifle produced by Savage Arms, which has been bought to replace the old No8 firing 0.22 in the Army Cadet Force - which despite its name is a civilian organisation and not part of the military, just affiliated to it.
This is not new. Auto-Ordinance came up with a .22 conversion kit for the Thomson so that police departments could have a cheap way to train officers. Probably helped sell more departments on getting a Thomson. I believe I read this a long time ago in the book "The Gun that Made the 20's Roar". Very detailed book, it even had reproductions of Auto-Ordinance ads. The wildest ad showed a cowboy on the porch of a ranch house in say, Arizona with a huge hat and sheep skin chaps, firing full auto at some mounted bandits. Ooh the things you could do before the National Firearms Act of 1934!
Your comments regarding suppressors are absolutely correct. Heck, here in heavily regulated UK, I have 5 suppressors, all far less expensive than in the US & no "special" tax whatsoever.
As of early 2021 suppressor deregulation, it appears, isn't going to happen any time soon. However, should that have been passed there would have been a short (a few weeks to a couple months) period where silencer prices skyrocketed when everyone rushed out to buy one. After that surge, when manufacturers catch up and the initial excitement fades from the customer base, then prices would stabilize potentially below where they had been previously, and hopefully the range of devices would expand as new manufacturers jumped in to the market.
Are those from your personal collection? I will try to identify: Row one- Valmet, FN (model slips me, MAG?) Row two- Folding stock AK, ChiCom SKS missing bayonet Row three- Scotti, Type 99 Arisaka Row four- FN49 with 20 round magazine, Arisaka take down model What's my score?
Thought that was FN's version of BREN because of sight and what little of magazine I could see, its posterior curve. (Trying to be professional, so please no lame sexual innuendoes.) However, correcting me will only improve my knowledge. The AK may more specifically be the short barreled AKS (some call it AKMS)
The British Army has .22 conversion kits and one of the biggest things they used it for was to use the L85 on the old indoor 25metre ranges that a lot of the old camps still had. Whilst 5.56 was banned on those ranges, and many had been converted to virtual ranges, we could still shoot .22 on base rather than being bussed to the off-site ranges for live fire on the old bases that hadn't been updated. But yes, it's a basic marksmanship training tool.
On the subject of single shot training rifles there are a few extra points, specifically regarding British use of these rifles: 1) these are primarily used for cadets so they are a relativly "safe" weapon to train on being manually operated etc 2) .22LR can be used on 25m indoor ranges which greatly eases training and logistics (for example many large private schools in the UK with a cadet contingent will have their own 25m .22LR range but access to a full bore range is limited to local military installations) 2).22LR is not only cheap but also can be fired from a 5.56mm rifle with a conversion kit allowing a simple progression from single shot to semi auto to full bore all Ian's points of course ring true as well
The single shot rifles are the No9 replacing the No8 in the Cadet forces (voluntary civilian organisation) and not used by the actual Armed Forces. The armed forces itself uses a HK conversion kit for the SA80 to fire .022. HK also made the .22 conversion kit we used on our old SLR's as well. One of its uses was in the indoor cine ranges before we got the SAT trainers
The nice thing about offset suppressors is you can usually see the sights over the can. Meaning you don't need to purchase/install taller sights that may make unsuppressed shooting more difficult because your sight picture is different.
I was thinking about the tapered barrel thing. I wonder how that differs from a forcing cone. You see forcing cones kind of often, like with shotguns, for instance. Forcing cones are also a part of the tubes of cannons. If you look down an M119A2 or A3 (can’t speak for the A1), you’ll see that the tube is not a perfect cylinder. Only the end portion of the tube is cylindrical. From the breech the forcing cone extends a couple feet and then assumes a cylindrical shape. In the case of this howitzer, the body of the round itself doesn’t touch the lans and grooves of the “rifling”. So, nothing there is getting smashed to fit, so far as the body of the round itself. What does make immediate contact with the rifling is the rotating band on the round. That gets smashed. It seems to function almost like a sabot. Tube lives on that howitzer last quite longer than 500 rounds. Everything gets tracked on the gun. Every type of round, the numbers of rounds, the charge increments for each round, with all of these components of firing being used to determine remaining tube life on the DA Form 2408-4.
Dnt kno wen I was in cadets in the 90 we used s80a1 22 semi auto on an an electronic range in indoors it was. Like a computer game...after yo had finished it showed you where your shots landed an how long it took to take the shot....an the full bore electronic range popped up groups of targets an showed you on a screen where you hit your targeted it was ace....u only got to go on it if you aced the 22 shoot..yes I was a good shooter got picked for Beasley every year but unfortunately had no one to take me I cud clover leaf at 200ft with s 22 martini on iron sites loved that gun it was just so crisp to shoot
Here in germany there is actually a company that makes stamped FG42 reproductions. I own one. It is very reliable but it was also a bit more expensive than the ones SMG makes.
I agree on the starting with marksmanship. I got started with my dad doing informal benchrest shooting. Then I got into single and double trap, and have shot that for quite a while. Lately Ive been getting into metallic silhouette (rimfire rifle) shooting which is quite challenging but very enjoyable and great practice. I shoot a west german voyer, and my dad shoots a custom husqvarna. Next step will be high power silhouette. We'd have both started nra style high power shooting ages ago, if anywhere here did it. Being in canada I havent been able to find anything like that. Lots of shotgun and metallic silhouette, ipsc and SASS are popular as well.
Sabot also allows a .50 cal bullet weight with a .30 cal frontal area, so its very good at poking holes in armor given the mass vs frontal area. Sabot tank ammunition is pretty interesting in design so they can get the super long penetrating rods in a round that can still be stored and handled.
The soviet 5.45 stripper clips were also 15 rounds versus the average of 10 rounds for 5.56 and 7.62x39. That means two clips will fill a standard 5.45 AK magazine, and three fills the RPK74 magazine.
A note on the .22 training rifle, this is a cadet weapon, it's not used for training of actual soldiers. It's a replacement for the ageing enfield conversions they were using previously.
I find it interesting what you were saying about the features of a hypothetical new modern service rifle. But I think you left out one important consideration, cost. I think the spectrum of _weight_ and _durability_ is actually a three-way one, with _expense_ being the third axis. Meaning that you can have a gun that is both very light and very durable / reliable, but that's going to require you using some very Advanced manufacturing techniques and materials, which will make it very expensive. In fact, we've seen this kind of thing and rifle competitions since the mid 80s. I think that the HK G11 is probably the marquee example of this, but it's certainly not the only one. I mean this is generally a theme in nearly all military for Karen. In fact it might be the biggest one. In the last two decades the US military has had a number of projects from Small Arms to a new family of armored vehicles and beyond that significantly exceeded the capability of today's forces, and prove themselves sufficiently reliable, but simply cost too much to be economically viable. I imagine it if you gave them a billion dollars for development, Textron could probably finish the design for their new caseless rifles and machine guns within a year, and produce a weapon that was objectively better then the current M4 in nearly every way. But each unit might cost $2,000. And no one wants to pay that. We've reached a point in technological development where our potential abilities in manufacturing and design probably far exceed the resources we are willing to devote to them. I guess the jackpot is someone who is able to bring those advanced technologies to msrket at a price that the military is willing to pay.
13:45 THIS, I have explained that so many times to people and best I can do it to call it a hybrid DI/SS piston. It's the same with most bolt actions with out removable magazine like the Mosin and the Mauser are not 5rd magazines but 4+1 since it not possible to close the bolt without feeding a round, thus making the GUN have a 5rd capacity not the magazine. It's a stupid technicality but still messes their logic up when they realize that but still fully aware of how silly it is.
Interested in guns books? 1. Home Workshop Prototype Firearms 2. Basics of Firearms: From Design to Function 3. Hatchers Notebook 4. Chinn's The Machine Gun 5. Advanced Gunsmithing by Vickery 6. Complete Guide to Gunsmithing by Chapel 7. PA Luty's books. That should give you a really sound start - expand with Hogg's Guns and How They Work, Whelen's Small Arms Ballistics 1 and 2, Roller Locking Firearms (this one is very expensive), all the Luty PDFs, all the Holmes books, Bensons's Guerrilla Gunsmithing. That'll set you up well.
Magazin capacity is a function of cartridge size and weight. Smaller cartridges usually have a higher mag size. Like the 5.7mm pistol mag fits more ammo than say .45
Spot on. What people say they want and what orders you really get are two different things. Doesn't matter what the industry is. "I really want that." then they see the price tag. realize that was an impulse or find out they just don't have the money...so your customers are more finite. If you're a large company you can accept the risk (to an extent) but a small business; it'll run you out of business.
Someone used to make a .22LR to.17 caliber squeeze bore rifle barrel which even though not pointed bullet had an effect on the ballistic coefficient. Wish I owned one.
Squeeze-Bores are an interesting thing. They are not always the Taperbores that people tend to expect. They show up before 1920 and exist through 1953 with some rumored guns existing as late as 1960/63 in the AAA role. They tend to be poorly documented and at times contraindication in documentation. For the most part having looked into this area with a number of friends most Squeeze-Bores are undocumented in most books. At best I would say maybe 35% are documented and only 10% in any sort of detail. Of which only the British 2 pdr and Canadian 6 pdr have any real and solid documentation behind them covering full development and combat use. And even then... you have to use a myriad of sources to find all of that information. Squeeze-Bore guns range from as low as .30 and.40 caliber rifles to as high as 280mm cannons and howitzers. Covered in true Taperbore rifles or little john devices/adapters. Documentation however is generally very poor under the best of circumstances. I expect that to do it justice it would take a good 4-5 years to fully explore and cover every variant (including ammo variants) from every nation in detail for a book. Of which most of these firearms are extremely scarce. The same however can be said for the APDS and HEDS rounds and special guns produced between WW1 and during WW2. Its not nearly as simple as many published books make it seem.
I wonder if very powerful (semi-auto) pistol rounds are going to make a comeback any time soon. I'd love to see something breaking the 2,000 fps/ftlbe realm in a semi-auto. .440 Corbon and .475 Wildey Magnum come close, so maybe you can get there with handloads, but some new novelty rounds would be cool. I suppose someone could try getting .460 and .500 S&W into something other than revolvers and leverguns, but I'm talking a new semi-auto round entirely.
Surely the modular approach is a good compromise to combat weapon design? Then if you want bipods, AA sights, or various lights later, then you can screw some on. Then the guys who dont need or use those features only had the gun's weight boosted by the weight of the rails or mounting points.
My uncle (retired colonel, trained snipers in the Army) currently runs a junior high and high school shooting team in Kitsap County, in Washington state - and yeah, the rifles that he uses are usually in the Olympic-caliber, single-shot, Swiss-made, .22 caliber range. Those suckers cost $10k - $15k each. However, he does gun restoration, so he's able to bring the cost down a bit/ The nice thing is that the kids that are in his program tend to get college scholarships to schools like Perdue, who have shooting clubs.
From your field trial answer, It would be great if one day you would be able to look/try the saboted flechet rifle that I think Styer sent for testing a bunch of years ago. Low weight, high speed without damage, accurate and small ammo all on paper sounds great with the down side of an all new cartridge type.
Galils and soviet Shpagin and Sudaev SMGs have 35 rd mags. And Austrians have 42-rounders for Stg 77. RPK74 has 45 rd. As well as 40 rds for HF33/53. If you look for it, you can find any kind of various magazine stuff.
Hello Ian, I was interested to see that you are reading a book on Charles De Gaulle, as I am currently working on a academic project examing the Fall of France in 1940. I'd like to know if the book goes into depth on this period of French political/military catastrophe and de Gaulles tenacious attempts at stabilising the situation at hand... or is this book more focused on the Free French/post war Gaullism period, a reply from you or someone who has read this book would be much appreciated, thanks
Just 3 guns? Ian has a great military mix, but for a do it all civilian battery...remember this must stop everything from rabbits to moose... I would choose: Rifle: 20" AR-10 in .308 or 6.5CM Pistol: 10mm auto or .357 magnum DA revolver. Shotgun: 12ga pump with 3 barrels, 28" w/choke tubes 20" rifled 18" Cylinder bore. With the rifle I can fulfill any tactical role from CQB to sniper. My handgun is fit for concealed carry, open "duty" carry, or handgun hunting, and defense against wildlife, but can be loaded for small edible game as well. My shotgun and it's barrel options will allow me to hunt anything that flies, shoot trap and skeet, or cleanly take small game through deer or larger at close range. It's slug barrel offers a "stopping rifle" against anything less than cape buffalo and larger. The 18" Cylinder bore barrel makes it a wicked CQB and home defense tool.
British Military have used .22 rimfire as a training/Cadet round for many years. First reason, currently under UK law .22 is the easiest to own, most UK competions are .22. Cost and also, you can fire them on small indoor ranges such as most cadet units have in their drill halls.
The new single shot weapon would be the No9 made by Savage arms to replace the No8 in the Cadet Forces, not used by the British Forces (the Army Cadets are a civilian organisation and despite the name not part of the armed force, just affiliated to it). The armed forces themselves use a conversion kit by HK to fire .22, HK also made the .22 conversion kits for our SLR's
For the M16, the 20 round mag was supposed to be the standard. Specifically, soldiers were never going to handle bullets, instead the would just be issued factory pre-loaded 20 round mags. The mags would be disposable, missiles would work all the time, and flying cars were 20 years away (they've been 20 years away since the 1930's). Tapered bores were even simple add-on barrel extensions; ie the Littlejohn Adapter for 40mm British tank guns. Though the rounds themselves had both better armor penetration and accuracy without the squeeze taper add-on to the barrel. Such that they would use the rounds without bothering to attach the Littlejohn Adapter.
That's interesting. When I saw the anti tank gun with the 37mm muzzle abandoned in N. Africa I thought it was a German leftover. However, it was the first 'crush' gun I had ever seen and to be frank, I paid more attention to lack of rubber on the wheels than markings.
On mag capacity. Lets not forget that even the M16 didn't start as a 30 round capacity. It originally came with a 20 round mag like the M14. 30 rounds isn't necessarily the default size even STANAG still comes in a 20 round size. For example I prefer the AUG 42 round mag for everything but laying down.
The turkish mausers are another underappreciated rifle that can still be found cheap. I paid 130 for my M1903 and its a solid rifle, not the best looking bore but I've managed 1" at 60 yards.
The practical squeeze bore adapter was originated by the Czech weapons designer Janacek in the 1930's, a friend of legendary Jawa motorcycle designer / racer, spy and firearm designer George Patchett (also a friend of Ian Fleming who was his spying handler and based James Bond of Patchett's exploits). When the Germans invaded Czechoslovakia in 1938 Patchett and Janacek smuggled the prototype squeeze bore barrel out of the CZ factory and threw it wrapped in blankets over the walls of the British embassy in Prague. This barrel was the prototype for the famous Littlejohn adaptor used on US 37mm. and British 40mm. 2 Pounder light AFVs up until 1960. Patchett also arranged for the smuggling out of the CZ arms factory's top designers (along with blueprints and prototypes) to Britain where they joined Enfield to create legendary firearms such as the Bren gun, the BESA tank machine gun and the BESA 15.2mm. AFV HMG (a calibre now only used by the Steyer Manlicher M2000 anti-helicopter & material rifle). Why was the squeeze bore adapter called the "Littlejohn" adapter in Allied service?? Because Janacek is Czech for Littlejohn and Janacek changed family's name to this as part of British security measures in 1939. The Germans never realised that they could have simply attached a squeeze bore adapter and just used cast iron filled shots (APCNR) to obtain the same performance as squeeze bore barrels firing modified shimmed tungsten cored (APCR) shots thanks to Patchett and co.'s pre-war espionage efforts. I met George Patchett's daughter briefly at a Czech motorcycle rally in Britain in 2004.
A GREAT historical rifle that was imported abwhile back that are still cheap is the Steyr M95 both long rifle and carbines you can get one for around $260
I would go with an ar-15, a vehicle mounted 20mm ciws using the same 20mm delayed high explosive ammo and a javelin missile launcher with plenty of ammo. Obviously i would need a strong vehicle for this setup as the machine gun and a javelin missile launcher, ciws and ammo is gonna be very heavy.
Designing an asymmetrical suppressor is also just more difficult to do. You can either make a series of easy to make suppressors and test them for effectiveness (circular cans of varying geometry and baffles), or do a lot of math and simulation on a complex design before executing.
I think a read of the Gun Facts articles about Mauser trying to redo their Luger should be a must read for anyone wishing to re-make an ancient classic pistol or rifle. A Colt 1908 pocket with a series 80 in stainless would sell good, but of course then it would be competing against Colt's Mustang..
Just wanted to say I looked up belt and holster still going strong 4 years later. Will have to check out next time in Jackson as always thanks Ian keep being awesome.
Ian, Patron Saints of Bygone Guns, you are the classiest man on TH-cam! I cannot begin to thank you enough!
Belt&Holster Guns of the Western Wilderness Good luck with your endeavour!
All the best Belt and Holster!
hope all is well! sounds like a fun place!
Well the website linked in the description is now a dead link so...hopefully things are going good for you now or I just caught it at a bad time!
Must say I love how well Ian enunciates when he speaks. Very well spoken and knowledgeable. Love this channel for the information. Would love more breakdowns of the weapons and systems used.
Watching this in the year of 2020, and it gave me a laugh when Ian optimistically mentions the future of the the Hudson H9. It's unfortunate what happened, but it's good that Forgotten Weapons is here to chronicle these sort of happenings.
I'm interested in buying a striker fire pistol so I looked up the H9 and immediately deflated XD
Forgotten Weapons indeed.
it's also funny to look at the wall in the back and seeing the horrible Krinkov with the BB gun stock
And just yesterday I held a used Daniel Defense H9 for 1k
I definitely agree with the book recommendation. I find a lot of people are happy with Bolt Action Military Rifles of the World as well.
C&Rsenal
@@beltholstergunsofthewester6199 he makes a lot of good videos for a poser
BAMRs of the world
⁶⁶⁶⁶⁶⁶⁶⁶
@@OD_G00N 9
Hi Ian.
You are so spot on.
Such a living treasure in the Firearms World.
I was an Armourer in the Australian Army and really concur with You.
I love Your work, Man.
Thanks.
Keep up the good work !!!!!!!
Your story about your friend of a friend almost brought a tear to my eye. How someone could look at those papers and think they're trash is beyond me. You're doing great work trying to prevent the loss of history Ian.
I see Ian's psychic abilities are getting more powerful.
Look how steady he keeps those guns floating right behind him.
John Chaplick
You wrote the words right out of my mind
Psychic? As he touts the virtues of the Hudson....
hmmmMMm observant you are ....fall, the guns will, when Ian reads this and laughs
Kkkkk
_"The Force is STRONG with this one."_ 😊
I think the 30 rnd magazine, is the largest capacity, least curved, shortest, most out of the way, reliable magazine size that is easy and economical to make.
Your voice, and content in general, fill many sleepless nights. A true tonic for the insomnia. Thank you.
10:13 What is this phrase "too many Forgotten Weapons videos?" I don't understand...
TheGoldenCaulk enough that I started dreaming in French surplus weapons...
I know that feel. Ian made me buy an RSC
RSC?
TheGoldenCaulk hey I've seen you in BF4...I think.
One can have enough, but never too many
Ian, Argentinean is also correct! My parents are both from close to Buenos Aires and they've never said "Argentine" in their life! My guess is that "Argentine" is probably a British thing (I live in Boston)
Love the videos!
Great video, I enjoyed listening to it on my drive home from work tonight.
You know what, screw it. I don't need much sleep, it's not like i'm working today.
*me at 3 am*
Forgotten weapons is a highly addictive drug
Hahahah yes! ...forgotten sleep XD
2024, and i still haven't run out Forgotten Weapons videos to watch. Ian is incredible.
To anyone who tries the belt and holster link in the description, they changed their website address
13:36 THANK YOU!! so sickj of ppl calling the AR direct gas impingement. Stoner was a genius his system works amazing. reducing recoil is one of the best advantages.
Great Video again!
But I got to correct the question of the swiss ammo packeging; it is dividable trough 6 like he said and de mags were based on the number of 6. That said the ammo is packed in 460 round boxes, 60 round bricks, but then into 10 round boxes.
Greetings from a active swiss soldier and thanks for the great video again!
This is a great video! I was egaged during the whole thing and surprised when it ended! Great Job Ian!
Back in 1971 our training .22 were regular magazine rifles with the magazine removed so you had to avoid dropping the round down the well.
Your "Gun wall" is WAY BETTER than mine !!!.
Great video :-)
interesting note on sporting purpose squeeze bores. Yes there were a few sporting purpose squeeze bore rifles, but they are rare . A batch of rifles were made here in Australia back in the 70's or 80's i think by Myra arms that fired standard .22lr through a squeeze bore down to .20 and .17 ( i think i recall a .14 was tried but couldnt be stabilised). I dont have much info on it, as far as i could figure out the barrel was bored and rifled to the exit diameter and chambered with a special .22lr reamer with a really long throat ( sort of like a forcing cone ( i call it that)). They were flat shooting with a fair bit of gain in velocity. i dont know what actions they were fitted to, but i guess the would have to be pretty strong. I dont know the barrel life, But i have seen a few around that have been used quite a fair bit and still are accurate, so i guess they have a good barrel life.
Purdue ! your comments are spot on. I just hit this video. I was there in 1986 + - Then it was Ruger Mark 1 and Fienwerkbau air pistols. I was better in Air which was a new sport for me and it has helped so much for anything I have done since. Currently an instructor.
for military rifles, I suspect the future adoptions will be modular designs. ex. need a SAW, add a bull barrel, change to open bolt firing mode. CQB, change for a short barrel and fold in the stock, but all use the exact same receivers and just will change the barrel, mag, firing mode, etc to fit the mission, yet keeping logistics minimal at the same time. the current G36 series is a great example of an attempt at this.
The problem with a convertible AR/MG is that the gun needs to be durable enough for enduring the rigors of constant full-auto fire. This adds weight to it as a rifle, where it needs to be light and doesn't need to be able to withstand the heat and wear from firing hundreds of rounds in a typical engagement.
Obviously economically viable and producable wonder-materials can fix this quandry, but we don't have those yet.
TJbrena I agree completely. That was essentially a best case scenario for a future system. We don't have any materials to economically produce reliable receivers of that type. Sure titanium would work, but your platoon of weapons will cost as much as a bloody IFV.
Andrew Legg titanium is a wonderful material, unless you're machining large quantities of it. In that case, you have to be exceptionally careful, because titanium with a high surface to mass ratio burns, and burns rather bright and hot. you can't easily forge the stuff, and, if you're resorting automated c&c machining, you need a rather sizable footprint, per component, to manufacture your parts.
titanium is nifty stuff, but is both pricey enough and risky enough to deal with to be prohibitive for large scale manufacture.
Some modern artillery still uses rimmed cartridges as well, again no magazine interference issues there.
One thing you missed about singel shot .22 rifels as training rifels in the military is that the fact that they are very difrent from the "battle" rifles is in itself a point. Many millitarys have programs for youth and since training children for war is frowned upon a very simple rifle makes it easier to claim that you'r only training marksmanship and not soldiers.
Carl Norberg These are training rifles for new recruits, not youth
The British Army does not use single shot 0.22 rimfire for training soldiers, it used a HK conversion kit that fits inside the standard SA80 and before that one in the SLR to fire 0.22 rimfire.
I suspect the question poster had mixed up the new No 9 rifle produced by Savage Arms, which has been bought to replace the old No8 firing 0.22 in the Army Cadet Force - which despite its name is a civilian organisation and not part of the military, just affiliated to it.
This is not new. Auto-Ordinance came up with a .22 conversion kit for the Thomson so that police departments could have a cheap way to train officers. Probably helped sell more departments on getting a Thomson. I believe I read this a long time ago in the book "The Gun that Made the 20's Roar". Very detailed book, it even had reproductions of Auto-Ordinance ads. The wildest ad showed a cowboy on the porch of a ranch house in say, Arizona with a huge hat and sheep skin chaps, firing full auto at some mounted bandits. Ooh the things you could do before the National Firearms Act of 1934!
Loved this video, outstanding information!
Your comments regarding suppressors are absolutely correct.
Heck, here in heavily regulated UK, I have 5 suppressors, all far less expensive than in the US & no "special" tax whatsoever.
As of early 2021 suppressor deregulation, it appears, isn't going to happen any time soon. However, should that have been passed there would have been a short (a few weeks to a couple months) period where silencer prices skyrocketed when everyone rushed out to buy one. After that surge, when manufacturers catch up and the initial excitement fades from the customer base, then prices would stabilize potentially below where they had been previously, and hopefully the range of devices would expand as new manufacturers jumped in to the market.
I just went to the website, it’s the same book in 2020 as it was in this video
Cool plug for Belt & Holster. Great Q&A Video.
I read that De Gaule book a few years ago. Quite good. Interesting guy. Just the right man for just the right moment in his nation's history.
Are those from your personal collection?
I will try to identify:
Row one- Valmet, FN (model slips me, MAG?)
Row two- Folding stock AK, ChiCom SKS missing bayonet
Row three- Scotti, Type 99 Arisaka
Row four- FN49 with 20 round magazine, Arisaka take down model
What's my score?
6/8
What did I miss?
It's not a challenge if I tell you that!
That's not an FN, that's a Bren gun.
Thought that was FN's version of BREN because of sight and what little of magazine I could see, its posterior curve. (Trying to be professional, so please no lame sexual innuendoes.) However, correcting me will only improve my knowledge. The AK may more specifically be the short barreled AKS (some call it AKMS)
The British Army has .22 conversion kits and one of the biggest things they used it for was to use the L85 on the old indoor 25metre ranges that a lot of the old camps still had. Whilst 5.56 was banned on those ranges, and many had been converted to virtual ranges, we could still shoot .22 on base rather than being bussed to the off-site ranges for live fire on the old bases that hadn't been updated.
But yes, it's a basic marksmanship training tool.
Read the De Gaule book a few years ago. Good read. Interesting guy. Just the right man for just the right moment in his nation's history.
"Unintended Consequences" by John Ross. Perhaps a little controversial, but a good thought provoking read.
“Interested to a fault.” I feel that in my own fleeting interests. Thank you for putting words to that.
Love you answer on "If you only could have three guns" ..Belt fed machine gun!
On the subject of single shot training rifles there are a few extra points, specifically regarding British use of these rifles:
1) these are primarily used for cadets so they are a relativly "safe" weapon to train on being manually operated etc
2) .22LR can be used on 25m indoor ranges which greatly eases training and logistics (for example many large private schools in the UK with a cadet contingent will have their own 25m .22LR range but access to a full bore range is limited to local military installations)
2).22LR is not only cheap but also can be fired from a 5.56mm rifle with a conversion kit allowing a simple progression from single shot to semi auto to full bore
all Ian's points of course ring true as well
The single shot rifles are the No9 replacing the No8 in the Cadet forces (voluntary civilian organisation) and not used by the actual Armed Forces.
The armed forces itself uses a HK conversion kit for the SA80 to fire .022. HK also made the .22 conversion kit we used on our old SLR's as well.
One of its uses was in the indoor cine ranges before we got the SAT trainers
You should start posting these on iTunes. A podcast of inrangetv would be awesome
The nice thing about offset suppressors is you can usually see the sights over the can. Meaning you don't need to purchase/install taller sights that may make unsuppressed shooting more difficult because your sight picture is different.
I was thinking about the tapered barrel thing. I wonder how that differs from a forcing cone. You see forcing cones kind of often, like with shotguns, for instance. Forcing cones are also a part of the tubes of cannons. If you look down an M119A2 or A3 (can’t speak for the A1), you’ll see that the tube is not a perfect cylinder. Only the end portion of the tube is cylindrical. From the breech the forcing cone extends a couple feet and then assumes a cylindrical shape. In the case of this howitzer, the body of the round itself doesn’t touch the lans and grooves of the “rifling”. So, nothing there is getting smashed to fit, so far as the body of the round itself. What does make immediate contact with the rifling is the rotating band on the round. That gets smashed. It seems to function almost like a sabot. Tube lives on that howitzer last quite longer than 500 rounds. Everything gets tracked on the gun. Every type of round, the numbers of rounds, the charge increments for each round, with all of these components of firing being used to determine remaining tube life on the DA Form 2408-4.
The tapered bore weapons were called the Gerlach guns there were Also prewar sporting rifles that were taper bore
Nearly three years later and you're still reading the De Gaulle book. How long is that thing?
He walked amongst them and said, twenty two rim fire is cool. Many believed in him.
Dnt kno wen I was in cadets in the 90 we used s80a1 22 semi auto on an an electronic range in indoors it was. Like a computer game...after yo had finished it showed you where your shots landed an how long it took to take the shot....an the full bore electronic range popped up groups of targets an showed you on a screen where you hit your targeted it was ace....u only got to go on it if you aced the 22 shoot..yes I was a good shooter got picked for Beasley every year but unfortunately had no one to take me I cud clover leaf at 200ft with s 22 martini on iron sites loved that gun it was just so crisp to shoot
Here in germany there is actually a company that makes stamped FG42 reproductions. I own one. It is very reliable but it was also a bit more expensive than the ones SMG makes.
to the guy that asked about suppressors, get a welrod buddy :) pretty sure ian has done a vid on it
I agree on the starting with marksmanship. I got started with my dad doing informal benchrest shooting. Then I got into single and double trap, and have shot that for quite a while. Lately Ive been getting into metallic silhouette (rimfire rifle) shooting which is quite challenging but very enjoyable and great practice. I shoot a west german voyer, and my dad shoots a custom husqvarna. Next step will be high power silhouette.
We'd have both started nra style high power shooting ages ago, if anywhere here did it. Being in canada I havent been able to find anything like that. Lots of shotgun and metallic silhouette, ipsc and SASS are popular as well.
"That's like a $40k-$50k guSPROINGun" Would have loved to have been a fly on the wall for that pucker moment lol.
LOVE ALL OF YOUR WORK, ITS MORE THAN EDUCATION EVERY TIME AND I CANT WAIT TO SAY HELLO. THE AVID LIMEY.
Sabot also allows a .50 cal bullet weight with a .30 cal frontal area, so its very good at poking holes in armor given the mass vs frontal area. Sabot tank ammunition is pretty interesting in design so they can get the super long penetrating rods in a round that can still be stored and handled.
Interesting as always. I also tend to obsess about my interests.
The soviet 5.45 stripper clips were also 15 rounds versus the average of 10 rounds for 5.56 and 7.62x39. That means two clips will fill a standard 5.45 AK magazine, and three fills the RPK74 magazine.
How did you get on the set of Tremors? I am surprised it still exists, since that movie was made in the 80s.
When I was a you soldier we used .22 conversation kits for our L1A1 SLR
it was magazine fed we just cocked the rifle when we fired each round
A note on the .22 training rifle, this is a cadet weapon, it's not used for training of actual soldiers. It's a replacement for the ageing enfield conversions they were using previously.
I've had suppressors on my .308 and .243 for hunting for years and it is great, but Im in Europe.
I love the .243, it's such a little hot-rod of a round. I bet it's much more pleasant to shoot suppressed.
Finally Ian history! i've been waiting to hear the story win how our mysterious holy gun toting saviour came to be.
I find it interesting what you were saying about the features of a hypothetical new modern service rifle. But I think you left out one important consideration, cost. I think the spectrum of _weight_ and _durability_ is actually a three-way one, with _expense_ being the third axis. Meaning that you can have a gun that is both very light and very durable / reliable, but that's going to require you using some very Advanced manufacturing techniques and materials, which will make it very expensive. In fact, we've seen this kind of thing and rifle competitions since the mid 80s. I think that the HK G11 is probably the marquee example of this, but it's certainly not the only one. I mean this is generally a theme in nearly all military for Karen. In fact it might be the biggest one. In the last two decades the US military has had a number of projects from Small Arms to a new family of armored vehicles and beyond that significantly exceeded the capability of today's forces, and prove themselves sufficiently reliable, but simply cost too much to be economically viable. I imagine it if you gave them a billion dollars for development, Textron could probably finish the design for their new caseless rifles and machine guns within a year, and produce a weapon that was objectively better then the current M4 in nearly every way. But each unit might cost $2,000. And no one wants to pay that.
We've reached a point in technological development where our potential abilities in manufacturing and design probably far exceed the resources we are willing to devote to them. I guess the jackpot is someone who is able to bring those advanced technologies to msrket at a price that the military is willing to pay.
13:45 THIS, I have explained that so many times to people and best I can do it to call it a hybrid DI/SS piston. It's the same with most bolt actions with out removable magazine like the Mosin and the Mauser are not 5rd magazines but 4+1 since it not possible to close the bolt without feeding a round, thus making the GUN have a 5rd capacity not the magazine. It's a stupid technicality but still messes their logic up when they realize that but still fully aware of how silly it is.
Do you think you are ever going to have a chance to show us a S&W M39 Mk.22 "Hushpuppy"? I'm really interested in the locking-slide mechanism!
There was a small craze here in Aus of .22lr 'squeeze bores' although they didn't use conical barrels.
Thank you for having enthusiasm in everything you prodice!!! Firt 1:07 of show.
Produce; First
thank you for the interesting history, keep it up I truly do watch every one... haha
Ian also, if one let's a "V" spring fly off from a firearm sometimes they can break down the middle of the "V" due to rapid over travel.
Interested in guns books?
1. Home Workshop Prototype Firearms
2. Basics of Firearms: From Design to Function
3. Hatchers Notebook
4. Chinn's The Machine Gun
5. Advanced Gunsmithing by Vickery
6. Complete Guide to Gunsmithing by Chapel
7. PA Luty's books.
That should give you a really sound start - expand with Hogg's Guns and How They Work, Whelen's Small Arms Ballistics 1 and 2, Roller Locking Firearms (this one is very expensive), all the Luty PDFs, all the Holmes books, Bensons's Guerrilla Gunsmithing.
That'll set you up well.
Magazin capacity is a function of cartridge size and weight. Smaller cartridges usually have a higher mag size. Like the 5.7mm pistol mag fits more ammo than say .45
Kind of a Puckle gun shirt? Looks exactly like a Puckle gun shirt to me.
Spot on. What people say they want and what orders you really get are two different things. Doesn't matter what the industry is. "I really want that." then they see the price tag. realize that was an impulse or find out they just don't have the money...so your customers are more finite. If you're a large company you can accept the risk (to an extent) but a small business; it'll run you out of business.
Someone used to make a .22LR to.17 caliber squeeze bore rifle barrel which even though not pointed bullet had an effect on the ballistic coefficient. Wish I owned one.
Your SKS is missing it's monopod.
It's hand made and regular bayonets cannot be fitted.
Lol
Squeeze-Bores are an interesting thing. They are not always the Taperbores that people tend to expect. They show up before 1920 and exist through 1953 with some rumored guns existing as late as 1960/63 in the AAA role. They tend to be poorly documented and at times contraindication in documentation. For the most part having looked into this area with a number of friends most Squeeze-Bores are undocumented in most books. At best I would say maybe 35% are documented and only 10% in any sort of detail. Of which only the British 2 pdr and Canadian 6 pdr have any real and solid documentation behind them covering full development and combat use. And even then... you have to use a myriad of sources to find all of that information. Squeeze-Bore guns range from as low as .30 and.40 caliber rifles to as high as 280mm cannons and howitzers. Covered in true Taperbore rifles or little john devices/adapters.
Documentation however is generally very poor under the best of circumstances. I expect that to do it justice it would take a good 4-5 years to fully explore and cover every variant (including ammo variants) from every nation in detail for a book. Of which most of these firearms are extremely scarce.
The same however can be said for the APDS and HEDS rounds and special guns produced between WW1 and during WW2. Its not nearly as simple as many published books make it seem.
Don't forget early colt's revolvers. Some of those were squeezebore and gain twist.
I think Ian, at his young age, is one of foremost experts on 'old guns and ammunition' What will he know when he is 65 or 70? Darn.
I wonder if very powerful (semi-auto) pistol rounds are going to make a comeback any time soon. I'd love to see something breaking the 2,000 fps/ftlbe realm in a semi-auto. .440 Corbon and .475 Wildey Magnum come close, so maybe you can get there with handloads, but some new novelty rounds would be cool. I suppose someone could try getting .460 and .500 S&W into something other than revolvers and leverguns, but I'm talking a new semi-auto round entirely.
1:27 am. Finally I can go to sleep xD Thanks Ian for a bed time story.
Thank you Ian for all the great content>
Surely the modular approach is a good compromise to combat weapon design? Then if you want bipods, AA sights, or various lights later, then you can screw some on. Then the guys who dont need or use those features only had the gun's weight boosted by the weight of the rails or mounting points.
My uncle (retired colonel, trained snipers in the Army) currently runs a junior high and high school shooting team in Kitsap County, in Washington state - and yeah, the rifles that he uses are usually in the Olympic-caliber, single-shot, Swiss-made, .22 caliber range. Those suckers cost $10k - $15k each. However, he does gun restoration, so he's able to bring the cost down a bit/
The nice thing is that the kids that are in his program tend to get college scholarships to schools like Perdue, who have shooting clubs.
hi ian , could you do a video on the MAS 36?
better the MAT 49 and the historical background and use of it!!
From your field trial answer, It would be great if one day you would be able to look/try the saboted flechet rifle that I think Styer sent for testing a bunch of years ago.
Low weight, high speed without damage, accurate and small ammo all on paper sounds great with the down side of an all new cartridge type.
Rk 62. Best Ak variant ever
Just noticed the same thing :) Damn shame they are rare and hard to come by :/
I think that is Valmet M78 on the wall. Notice how it is stamped receiver, not milled. I wish to see it in greater detail, Ian pretty please...
Imo the best AK is a Galil, but the RK 62 is a good choice
Impossibear, galil IS rk62...Israel bought rights to manufacture rk62, in fact first prototypes and start series of galils were made in Finland...
Galils and soviet Shpagin and Sudaev SMGs have 35 rd mags. And Austrians have 42-rounders for Stg 77. RPK74 has 45 rd. As well as 40 rds for HF33/53. If you look for it, you can find any kind of various magazine stuff.
Hello Ian, I was interested to see that you are reading a book on Charles De Gaulle, as I am currently working on a academic project examing the Fall of France in 1940. I'd like to know if the book goes into depth on this period of French political/military catastrophe and de Gaulles tenacious attempts at stabilising the situation at hand... or is this book more focused on the Free French/post war Gaullism period, a reply from you or someone who has read this book would be much appreciated, thanks
Chapter 9 of the Gospel of Gun Jesus. Always a good listen.
Squeeze bores also lost out to sabot projectiles, since the latter could be fired from a regular barrel without causing as much wear
Awesome info, but just wanted to say that 7.5 swiss gp11 ammo comes packed 10 rounds to a box ;)
Just 3 guns? Ian has a great military mix, but for a do it all civilian battery...remember this must stop everything from rabbits to moose... I would choose:
Rifle: 20" AR-10 in .308 or 6.5CM
Pistol: 10mm auto
or .357 magnum DA revolver.
Shotgun: 12ga pump with 3 barrels,
28" w/choke tubes
20" rifled
18" Cylinder bore.
With the rifle I can fulfill any tactical role from CQB to sniper. My handgun is fit for concealed carry, open "duty" carry, or handgun hunting, and defense against wildlife, but can be loaded for small edible game as well.
My shotgun and it's barrel options will allow me to hunt anything that flies, shoot trap and skeet, or cleanly take small game through deer or larger at close range. It's slug barrel offers a "stopping rifle" against anything less than cape buffalo and larger. The 18" Cylinder bore barrel makes it a wicked CQB and home defense tool.
Outstanding video and info. Very interesting.
Wow, didn't know you were a fellow Boilermaker! I was an Aerospace major as well, graduated in 2000. When did you finish?
British Military have used .22 rimfire as a training/Cadet round for many years. First reason, currently under UK law .22 is the easiest to own, most UK competions are .22. Cost and also, you can fire them on small indoor ranges such as most cadet units have in their drill halls.
The new single shot weapon would be the No9 made by Savage arms to replace the No8 in the Cadet Forces, not used by the British Forces (the Army Cadets are a civilian organisation and despite the name not part of the armed force, just affiliated to it).
The armed forces themselves use a conversion kit by HK to fire .22, HK also made the .22 conversion kits for our SLR's
For the M16, the 20 round mag was supposed to be the standard. Specifically, soldiers were never going to handle bullets, instead the would just be issued factory pre-loaded 20 round mags. The mags would be disposable, missiles would work all the time, and flying cars were 20 years away (they've been 20 years away since the 1930's).
Tapered bores were even simple add-on barrel extensions; ie the Littlejohn Adapter for 40mm British tank guns. Though the rounds themselves had both better armor penetration and accuracy without the squeeze taper add-on to the barrel. Such that they would use the rounds without bothering to attach the Littlejohn Adapter.
That's interesting. When I saw the anti tank gun with the 37mm muzzle abandoned in N. Africa I thought it was a German leftover.
However, it was the first 'crush' gun I had ever seen and to be frank, I paid more attention to lack of rubber on the wheels than markings.
On mag capacity. Lets not forget that even the M16 didn't start as a 30 round capacity. It originally came with a 20 round mag like the M14. 30 rounds isn't necessarily the default size even STANAG still comes in a 20 round size. For example I prefer the AUG 42 round mag for everything but laying down.
The turkish mausers are another underappreciated rifle that can still be found cheap. I paid 130 for my M1903 and its a solid rifle, not the best looking bore but I've managed 1" at 60 yards.
The practical squeeze bore adapter was originated by the Czech weapons designer Janacek in the 1930's, a friend of legendary Jawa motorcycle designer / racer, spy and firearm designer George Patchett (also a friend of Ian Fleming who was his spying handler and based James Bond of Patchett's exploits).
When the Germans invaded Czechoslovakia in 1938 Patchett and Janacek smuggled the prototype squeeze bore barrel out of the CZ factory and threw it wrapped in blankets over the walls of the British embassy in Prague. This barrel was the prototype for the famous Littlejohn adaptor used on US 37mm. and British 40mm. 2 Pounder light AFVs up until 1960.
Patchett also arranged for the smuggling out of the CZ arms factory's top designers (along with blueprints and prototypes) to Britain where they joined Enfield to create legendary firearms such as the Bren gun, the BESA tank machine gun and the BESA 15.2mm. AFV HMG (a calibre now only used by the Steyer Manlicher M2000 anti-helicopter & material rifle).
Why was the squeeze bore adapter called the "Littlejohn" adapter in Allied service?? Because Janacek is Czech for Littlejohn and Janacek changed family's name to this as part of British security measures in 1939.
The Germans never realised that they could have simply attached a squeeze bore adapter and just used cast iron filled shots (APCNR) to obtain the same performance as squeeze bore barrels firing modified shimmed tungsten cored (APCR) shots thanks to Patchett and co.'s pre-war espionage efforts.
I met George Patchett's daughter briefly at a Czech motorcycle rally in Britain in 2004.
A GREAT historical rifle that was imported abwhile back that are still cheap is the Steyr M95 both long rifle and carbines you can get one for around $260
I would go with an ar-15, a vehicle mounted 20mm ciws using the same 20mm delayed high explosive ammo and a javelin missile launcher with plenty of ammo. Obviously i would need a strong vehicle for this setup as the machine gun and a javelin missile launcher, ciws and ammo is gonna be very heavy.
U must rich lol us poor ppl only dream
hey. i would like to have some more informations about the german EMP 44, which was never produced and your opinion on that.
Designing an asymmetrical suppressor is also just more difficult to do.
You can either make a series of easy to make suppressors and test them for effectiveness (circular cans of varying geometry and baffles), or do a lot of math and simulation on a complex design before executing.
I think a read of the Gun Facts articles about Mauser trying to redo their Luger should be a must read for anyone wishing to re-make an ancient classic pistol or rifle. A Colt 1908 pocket with a series 80 in stainless would sell good, but of course then it would be competing against Colt's Mustang..