@@SonsOfLorgar would have to be a custom job as the fite lite has a proprietary handgaurd. But hey it would be cool if they made one I mean it'll be like a 7000 dollar gun but so cool!
The first reference to a "powered exoskeleton" that I saw was STARSHIP TROOPERS, which I read in '62. The "Mobile Infantry" did not carry "firearms". The main weapon was a "flamer", which I had the impression was a heat ray, and the main explosove was a back-carried rocket-powered explosive carried on Y-racks". They also had "sub-critical mass" nuclear grenades" - very low-power man-porable nukes
It's probably worth noting that the MI suits fly most of the time. The kind of weapons they used and their ability to depend computer targeting makes them more like man shaped jet fighters than later depictions of power armor in military sci fi which tend to treat them as just a new, maybe more protected or maneuverable, gunfighters or infantry.
Flamer is what Brits call flame-throwers, although that has been on my to-read list for nearly 20 years, so I can't say how they describe it's use, maybe it is a "heat ray" thing.
@@wikieditspam actually they specifically refrnece in the opening why flying for too long is bad: you'll get sniped. The suits use their packs for boosting their jumps or avoiding a hazard, but theyre trained to use them sparingly. Unless you meant theyre in the air most of the time: drop pods and being picked up after the battle... but thats outside of combat.
Thank ian for answering about pre cnc manufactering. I am a machinist who gets to work with old ww2 navy machines up to a couple modern cncs. Most of my day is changing out tooling and set ups for a single part, big waste of time and everyone sees me sitting watching your videos waiting on running part thinking thats all i do.
@@paulharveu526 I'm sure they switched over to the AK as soon as they could, but there's probably a salt mine somewhere with the machinery stowed in it.
A what? I really need to look that up, right? (No, I don't know what a "coaster" is supposed to be - sounds like something you'd take to the freaking beach!)
He lives in Arizona. You don't need that stuff there.(joke) In all seriousness, it's probably just a drink without ice, which you don't need a coaster for.
@@bubba200874426 It's been wet and cold the last few days here is the AZ. A hot drink is not out of place when it's in the 40s (equal to being below freezing for the rest of you...).
I work for a Forge Company in Lansing Michigan. It was Meling Forge, at the time I worked there. I was cleaning up around the front area and found a 1911A1 frame blank. It was made during WW2 for a Government Contract. I keep looking for the dies, but never found it. Thank you for your channel.
Ian - I was one of the first people to respond to the first case you mentioned of the Lee-Navy failing. We were shooting at the adjacent IDPA bay when we were notified that there was an emergency. The shooter was alive (we performed CPR and kept him alive until we handed him off to the paramedics) and later, when his family was at his bedside they made the decision to remove him from life support. The analysis from the (IIRC) PA State Police lab indicated that the receiver bridge had crystallized and that it probably had nothing to do with the brass he was using. A side note about the victim, he was a very knowledgeable individual on older weapons, reloading for them, and was often consulted by various museums and collections. The event put a big damper on the training class and drove home the reality that well stocked first aid kits should be present whenever you go out shooting and that you should also have the training to at least utilize the components in an emergency and expeditious manner.
I agree with your assessment of the L85A1 and L85A2, but just FYI the British army does actually teach how to shoot the L85 from the left shoulder whilst rounding corners in CQB. You don't switch hands, you just put the gun over onto your left shoulder whilst keeping the grip the same, and you use the stacked red dot on top of the Elcan to keep your face clear of the charging handle.
Still a weapon that should be replaced by an M4 or LMT M4. It had its time. Controls are not the best and its heavy. The cost of the upgrades cant be much cheaper than a new weapon price.
@@wierdalien1 are you sure about that? I have tried to look for pictures or other proof of this and have only come up with anecdotes about left handed SA80s. I know that the British army trains lefties to fire right handed so to actually have left SA80s seems a bit pointless, and wasteful of money which we know the army needs elsewhere!
@@wierdalien1 They are only in the prototypes, the production guns were never made with left handed versions. Supposedly the final iteration of the prototypes had a kit that could convert the guns to fire left handed, but no idea how they did this and I have never seen one so may have only been on paper.
Power armour would have to be small and nimble enough to enter buildings and take cover behind walls and typical cover or it'd actually just a less effective tank.
@@SerinaDeMadrigal well if the suits are armoured enough, why ride inside the vehicle. Add fold down running boards to the outside of your APCs and IFVs and use infantry desant tactics from your tanks; or maybe just use the flatbed cargo carrier variants of your APC.
What is important to realize about the Pre-CNC machine tools is they are absolutely ubiquitous in machine shops, and production lines, not only across the US, but across the world. If well maintained, a milling machine or a laythe from the 1920's will work just as well as a modern production one, if necessary can be adapted to use digital readouts or even computer control, and will still churn out metal components from metal blanks today just as well as it did a 100 years ago. As a matter of fact, these machines tend to be preferred both by machine shops, private individuals, and businesses alike, simply because theyre still good machines, and theyre cheaper than new production. Besides from very specialized tools, such as barrel rifling tools, theyre also perfectly capable of most machining tasks, not just that of producing guns. If youre interested in old, precnc machining equipment, go see if you can find a machine shop or maker space, and check the production date on the big milling machines and laythes. They will almost always be from 1950 or sooner. My university in particular has german and american milling machines and laythes from the 1940's in the prototyping labs.
Not in the sense they are talking about though. He's referring to the era of manufacture when making a single gun took a mile long wearhouse, and each piece of the gun took a line of 20-30 single operation dedicated shapers pushing form tools over custom fixtures. The little ejector in a p08 might have taken 20 dedicated machines to produce. This is a very long sight from putting a VFD and a DRO on a bridgeport.
@@GunFunZS 20 dedicated milling machines lined up on a factory floor, each with a tool for one specific operation and an operator, or mechanical linkage running a specific single pass program does not change the facts that pre CNC machine tools are commonly just known as machine tools, and ubiquitous in most places that would have machine tools. I dont see what youre trying to contradict here. If the viewer wants to see a specific machine tool that has been used in some specific assembly line, sure, they can go look for factories that still have them, such as the case with FN as Ian brought up, but there is nothing fundamentally special about "machines that produced guns pre cnc" besides the fact that they may at one point have been in a gun factory. The question was phrased in such a way that there appeared to be a belief that such machines were different in some way from those used to produce any other metal product at the time, and those machines, are still all over the world, doing the exact same thing they did back then.
@@SigneOtter I agreed that old tools are good. Also I don't disagree that machine tools are machine tools. What I was trying to convey is that the kind of tools you are describing as widely in general use aren't what most of the guns were produced with at the big arsenals. They had machines specialized for mass production rather than a one off part. You aren't going to find shapers and huge rifling lathes at your local fabrication shop. You will find a small universal lathe, and an end mill. Sure they are period machine tools, but they won't recreate the methods of production used for mass production in that era. I would love to have any of the above though. My current tooling is very limited.
@@GunFunZS The only gun specific tooling I think you could possibly be referring to is stamping machines, or stamping presses, possibly forging machines with gun specific dies? Even those are universal machines though, that would require only the replacement of a die in order to produce any other given product that requires that machining operation. Guns are not special.
+Geeky Whether you use universal or specialized machine depends on the number of units you're pushing what is cheaper and makes more sense. If it's a small batch,after which you plan to re-tool, universal machine all the way. If you set up a production line in the millions, it is probably a lot more productive to use specialized machines. Also CNC isn't the only thing there was. NC was also a thing.
In relation to factory tooling, I've got a theory about mid century furniture. Essentially, the boom in curvy post war furniture came about because of an abundance of gun stock lathes surplussed after the war. Companies like Herman-Miller bought up these lathes on the cheap and used them to make furniture.
I know this is an older video but, if anyone is looking for a museum that has pre-CNC gun making and you happen to be in New England. Go to the American Precision Museum in Vermont. In the middle of nowhere is where production parts interchangeability and mass production got it's start. It is a tiny museum but it is very important to the evolution of guns and machining.
dear god please the next time there's a WW1 or WW2 match bagpipes for 'going over the top'. it would be a sight to behold. Also PSA: pipers walk up and down so they're a moving target, usually for their own side
35:40 If you're ever in Vermont check out the American Precision Museum in Windsor Vt. It's in the original Robbins & Lawrence Armory. It has some of the old machinery to make some of the first guns with interchangeable parts among other cool stuff. It's less than 2 hours up the highway from the Springfield Armory National Historic Site. Bonus; Harpoon Brewery is just up the road.
That would be a great weekend trip for anyone in New England. You could go to the Colt building in Hartford, then hit the Springfield Armory National Historic Site. Ending at the American Precision Museum. I bet there are other historic gun places along the Connecticut River that I can't think of right now. All that and Vermont beer!
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That integrated bipod for the AR handguards actually sounds amazing. Make a minimalist, lightweight AR that still has features you could feasibly need.
Always felt the same about the L85A2. I've had the pleasure of meeting those people too. The "You've never worked with an A2, you wouldn't know how good it is". And it's true, most of us will never handle an A2, but most Brits will never handle any other rifle either. It works both ways.
"I already have ideas on another book project" Either tell me it's a comprehensive book on Chinese mystery pistols or tell me how much money it will take to MAKE it that.
Thanks for making the time to do what you do! I really have had to pare down the time I spend watching stuff. But yours is absolutely one channel I sit and enjoy. Thanks again.
As far as I know they have never used Hk416s, or even technically "M4s" for that matter. The standard rifle they use is the L119A2 which is a custom Colt Canada C8 IUR, and before that it was the L119A1 which is a custom Diemaco C8 SFW/CQB. They have used standard M16s in the past (mainly A1s but some A2s) but they also used a lot of Diemaco C7s and in the early says commercial AR-15s. Either way, it is not a simple argument to claim that they use the AR over the L85, as the thing is they adopted the AR as their standard platform before the L85 even existed as an alternative to the SLR.
@@Vulf_Faolan The Royal Marines are classified as an elite force but not as special forces. In essence they are the Navy infantry but are highly specialised. Perhaps like UKSF they are able to select equipment themselves. Anyone know?
@@Vulf_Faolan That is mostly untrue. The majority of the Royal Marines are equipped with standard infantry weapons. The only exceptions are the Royal Marines Police close protection teams, the Brigade Patrol Troop, and most significantly in terms of numbers some of 43 Commando (what was the Fleet Protection Group). The last of these is a bit scandelous in my opinion, as it seems that there motives for using the L119A1 were more political rather than practical just wanting to be seen as more "special" than other RM units. The reason they gave for why they had to switch was that the L119A1 could more reliably use low velocity frangible ammunition which seems like a good idea for a unit that is designed to fight on ships and protect nuclear assets, but the problem is that as far as i know they have never used frangible ammo so that is clearly just an excuse. Regardless, I imagine that if that was the desired intent the L85 and L22 would actually be a better option as they have adjustable gas blocks with an open setting for adverse condition which would allow them to cycle lower powered ammo. Regardless of all of that, the vast majority of the Royal Marines are still issued L85s, probably somewhere in the region of 95%+.
Big thing with 9x39 however is it uses the same receiver and bolt as a 7.62x39, granted it isn’t as easy as swapping an AR barrel but for those that build their own AKs it’s really not a big deal. Piedmont cartridge company is about to begin production of US made 9x39 brass cased cartridge with 3 bullet options (plinking, hunting, sub sonic) that will be cheaper then the current offerings by wolf ($1 per round roughly) Krebs is coming out with US made 9x39 magazines, and because of 9x39s low pressure a 9mm pistol suppressor should suffice out of a shorter barrel. All in total a home builder like myself just needs to either shorten my bolt carriers piston, or do a half DI half long stroke system like piedemont, press a new barre in ($200-250) and then either find AS-Val mags or buy krebs mags with a US made ammo source or imports from wolf. Not as bad as it’s made out too be, besides the suppressor commonality it’s quite similar to taking a 5.56 arsenal and making it 300 blackout
Yep I've already built one. Have to use Unimags and load them to only 5 rounds until they figure out that side of things, but I built a custom suppressor specifically for the caliber, and out of a 7.5 barrel with a 12 inch can, it is quieter in the AR platform cycling than .300 BLK with a can of the same length and design (all legal form 1's). Dialed the gas down with an adjustable gas block and light buffer so it requires only a little force to cycle the action. As long as it catches on, the ammo prices will drop, .300 BLK used to be more expensive than the current Wolf offering.
Prepare to wait a long time on that FAL. DSA is backlogged and slow. Im waiting on an FAL pistol that's taking 3 months, when they told me it'd take 1. I was told 2 weeks ago that it was in the shipping department, and ready to ship. Called yesterday and was told that it's actually still two weeks at least away from being shipped. Just prepare to wait.
If Ian likes jazz and firearms, he should try watching Cowboy Bebop. Great jazzy soundtrack, and despite being animated all of the firearms on the show are portrayed fairly realistically. Spike uses a Jericho 941, and sometimes you can see actual trade dress and caliber designation on the guns if you pause at the right time.
I think the trick to making a decent ammo counter system is going be 1.) Having the magazine component be a drop-in aftermarket mod for existing mags (so baseplate, follower, etc. replacement) and 2.) E-ink screens in order to be power efficient and visible in daylight. The durability factor is already handled, slide red dot manufacturers have that solved. The problem that needs to be addressed is making a system that is affordable, easy to install, easy to use, and accurate.
I think the most immediate use for a powered exosuit would be to push crew serve weapons down to the individual soldier level. So instead of 2-3 guys working mortars, heavy MGs, etc., you have one guy with the exosuit carrying the weapon and its ammo, providing squad level support with it.
The secret to keeping the hair and beard whilst re-enacting is to do something pre-gunpowder (and not roman) Swords, spears, shield walls, mead! It's great
I am not interested in reenacting either but I do really appreciate the way those guys preserve and present the history of the common soldier. I always enjoy their displays.
LOL, I artifically "aged" one of my AR builds by running parts through my brass tumbler. Since I was going retro on the build, it turned out pretty good. Biggest issue I had, was finding original 20 round GI Spec. magazines. Locally, all sources have dried up, and ordering via the internet is too much of a hassle due to my State's Cap Restrictions, even when you're exempt.
Upon rewatch: Ian's slightly sheepish remark that he already had videos about what he was considering as his next book topic brought up a mental picture of the cover of _Bergmann to Bergmann: Bergmann Automatic Pistols 1893-1921_ - and it is _glorious._
The RAF Regt used shotguns in Belize for jungle training during the 1980's. We had a couple of pump action shotguns in our armoury which were issued when crews went into the jungle to do patrols
4:08 They should use that as a promotional blurb on next year's brochure. "'Less total garbage than I was really anticipating,' says Forgotten Weapons' Ian McCollum!"
1:07:44 - "As i kid i had a history of taking things apart... and not always getting them back together" OMG man, well said - we were for sure cut from the same cloth. Trash day in the summer i would roll around on my bike and come back home with a stash of electronics to dismantle and learn about, which later turn into repair once i had so many parts laying around the shed. I still recall getting my first 13" black and white TV from the curb and fixed busted connector and then hooking up one of the betamax players i was able to get working. Ahhh the good old days!
I've used the L85 A1 and an A2, plus train cadets on the L95 A2. People in the US forget that the M16 not very good when it was issued to their Army in the 1960's
The problem the m16 had were from our military poorly supplying and training the soldiers on how to maintain it. They also choose not to chrome the barrels when we needed to
I still see a SMG having a big potential. I dont know why we dont issue them to vehicle crews and Pilots. A small MP9 or SIG Copperhead would still be small enough but much more effective than a M9/M17. If a blackhawk has a soft crash in Afghanistan, having the pilots with a SMG is much more effective fighting tool while waiting for QRF and rescue.
@@brabblemaster401 that is a very good point. Though that can be somewhat mitigated by it being manufactured by a NATO ally. Also the armor piercing ability of the 5.7 may be worth the cost to the millitary, especially if it is issued only to heliocopter and-or fixed wing aircraft crews.
IIRC. A guy who knew the man who was killed by the Lee Navy accidentally reloaded his ammo with .243 bullets which were too big for the bore. He was even having trouble cambering the ammo at the time it happened.
Ian raises an interesting point on Sporterised rifles. My dad, when he was young, picked up a hunting rifle that I found out is actually a BSA P17. Basically a WW1 P17 sent to the UK, probably during WW2, and then after the war surplussed to a sporting rifle company and quite nicely converted into a hunting rifle in a factory. A lot of the military items have been removed (such as the font/rear sights & wood forstock) so it would be a lot of money and work to "fix" it. Right now it shoots very well and is quite a nice looking rifle as is with decades of wear and handling as a used rifle. With its traceable history that wasn't just some bubba conversion I think it has fallen into this "historical conversion" category. Also I can mount a scope on it and not feel bad as it is already tapped for it, although I don't think that is factory.
We have one of the Fite-Light belt fed uppers at the range I work at attached to a post 86 FA lower. The feed tray cracked and dead-lined the gun before it even had 10K rounds through it. And the feed tray is a $500 replacement part.
500 bucks for a feed tray? Jeezus. I don't think I've ever seen a feed tray crack before either now that I think about it. How does that even happen lol. I don't think I'll save up for one of those.
For that destructive test. I wonder if you might be able to get a super accurate high speed camera so we can really break down the failure in a granular way. I know Destin has one for smarter everyday and does a firearm related video from time to time as well.
The Cody Firearms Museum had an admittedly small collection of old Winchester machines that were fascinating to look at. I'm not sure how they will integrate into the remodel, but it'd be really cool to see you dive into that collection again, if you have the time! Also, I've seen several images of modern Brit troops with pointmen rocking Benelli shotguns. They seem to have that role still in several places
Springfield Armory National Historic Site does, in fact, have some of their manufacturing tools on the floor. There’s even a button that turns it on to show how it works.
l think working exoskeletons would absolutely change gun design, although perhaps not going as far as automatic cannons. Maybe we'd see 20 pound battle rifles become standard, with extremely heavy barrels and large magazines. Maybe handheld .50-cals too?
"Engravings offer no tactical advantage whatsoever." - Ian "Bergmann" Ocelot
The best comment
Where can I find a sniper rifle!!?
You Pretty Good !
Who's Josh? :^)
But ocelot never said that ...
You’re a pinky ring away from being dressed like a villain from Miami Vice.
Gotta close that gap
Ian is a master gambler. He knows the winning move is not to play.
YCCCm7 obviously.
9x39 Blyat-out
I find this funnier than I probably should
We need an inrange historical vignette about Mad Jack Churchill starring Ian on bagpipes.
that'd be a truly magnificent day
@@gmh3 Mad Jack = Fearless
I’d pay to watch that movie.
The Fite Lite belt fed upper and the GWACS polymer lower....... wwsd Stoner 63?
Oh fuckkkkkkkk
@@SonsOfLorgar would have to be a custom job as the fite lite has a proprietary handgaurd. But hey it would be cool if they made one I mean it'll be like a 7000 dollar gun but so cool!
With a Fostech Echo
@@thejerk4478 also one of the few platforms where the trigger makes sense
@@thejerk4478 Because it can't be the Franklin Armory stuff...
The first reference to a "powered exoskeleton" that I saw was STARSHIP TROOPERS, which I read in '62. The "Mobile Infantry" did not carry "firearms". The main weapon was a "flamer", which I had the impression was a heat ray, and the main explosove was a back-carried rocket-powered explosive carried on Y-racks". They also had "sub-critical mass" nuclear grenades" - very low-power man-porable nukes
It's probably worth noting that the MI suits fly most of the time. The kind of weapons they used and their ability to depend computer targeting makes them more like man shaped jet fighters than later depictions of power armor in military sci fi which tend to treat them as just a new, maybe more protected or maneuverable, gunfighters or infantry.
@@wikieditspam that explains the micronukes.
Flamer is what Brits call flame-throwers, although that has been on my to-read list for nearly 20 years, so I can't say how they describe it's use, maybe it is a "heat ray" thing.
@@wikieditspam actually they specifically refrnece in the opening why flying for too long is bad: you'll get sniped. The suits use their packs for boosting their jumps or avoiding a hazard, but theyre trained to use them sparingly.
Unless you meant theyre in the air most of the time: drop pods and being picked up after the battle... but thats outside of combat.
Thank ian for answering about pre cnc manufactering. I am a machinist who gets to work with old ww2 navy machines up to a couple modern cncs. Most of my day is changing out tooling and set ups for a single part, big waste of time and everyone sees me sitting watching your videos waiting on running part thinking thats all i do.
I wonder is Ishvesk or Tula still has a full set of PPSh-41 or PPS-43 line in a mountain, ready to pick back up where it left off.
@@paulharveu526 I'm sure they switched over to the AK as soon as they could, but there's probably a salt mine somewhere with the machinery stowed in it.
"Bagpipes are not a good dormitory instrument" - That may be just be one of Ian's biggest understatements.
The coolest thing at SHOT show was clearly the new tactical Hi Point.
TFB tv need not comment
One hour and thirteen minutes+ of me stressing over the lack of a coaster under that drink...
A what? I really need to look that up, right? (No, I don't know what a "coaster" is supposed to be - sounds like something you'd take to the freaking beach!)
Easyyy!
If you can't make it out of spent ammunition it won't make an appearance...
He lives in Arizona. You don't need that stuff there.(joke)
In all seriousness, it's probably just a drink without ice, which you don't need a coaster for.
@@bubba200874426 It's been wet and cold the last few days here is the AZ. A hot drink is not out of place when it's in the 40s (equal to being below freezing for the rest of you...).
That bathrobe... You seem to be the Hugh Hefner of guns.
Context please?
Baker Tankersley what? Lol what context? Wtf you talking about lmao 😂
It's a smoking jacket
It’s a smoking jacket you uncultured swine! 😂
He looks like he secretly smuggles iguanas to fuel his french small-arms addiction.
I work for a Forge Company in Lansing Michigan. It was Meling Forge, at the time I worked there. I was cleaning up around the front area and found a 1911A1 frame blank. It was made during WW2 for a Government Contract. I keep looking for the dies, but never found it. Thank you for your channel.
Neat!
Ian - I was one of the first people to respond to the first case you mentioned of the Lee-Navy failing. We were shooting at the adjacent IDPA bay when we were notified that there was an emergency. The shooter was alive (we performed CPR and kept him alive until we handed him off to the paramedics) and later, when his family was at his bedside they made the decision to remove him from life support. The analysis from the (IIRC) PA State Police lab indicated that the receiver bridge had crystallized and that it probably had nothing to do with the brass he was using. A side note about the victim, he was a very knowledgeable individual on older weapons, reloading for them, and was often consulted by various museums and collections.
The event put a big damper on the training class and drove home the reality that well stocked first aid kits should be present whenever you go out shooting and that you should also have the training to at least utilize the components in an emergency and expeditious manner.
Gun Broker has a Lee Navy sporter for sale now for 110 dollars.
So it does - thanks! I will watch that auction and buy it if the price doesn't go too high.
You heard it here folks, stay away from this auction.
So with exo-suits we’d basically start using Warhammer 40k bolt guns
I agree with your assessment of the L85A1 and L85A2, but just FYI the British army does actually teach how to shoot the L85 from the left shoulder whilst rounding corners in CQB. You don't switch hands, you just put the gun over onto your left shoulder whilst keeping the grip the same, and you use the stacked red dot on top of the Elcan to keep your face clear of the charging handle.
And there are some left handed ones
Still a weapon that should be replaced by an M4 or LMT M4. It had its time. Controls are not the best and its heavy. The cost of the upgrades cant be much cheaper than a new weapon price.
@@wierdalien1 are you sure about that? I have tried to look for pictures or other proof of this and have only come up with anecdotes about left handed SA80s. I know that the British army trains lefties to fire right handed so to actually have left SA80s seems a bit pointless, and wasteful of money which we know the army needs elsewhere!
@@DavidLee-df888 there are a few, as opposed to being 50%. Maybe they made the pattern and went on further.
@@wierdalien1 They are only in the prototypes, the production guns were never made with left handed versions. Supposedly the final iteration of the prototypes had a kit that could convert the guns to fire left handed, but no idea how they did this and I have never seen one so may have only been on paper.
Power armour would have to be small and nimble enough to enter buildings and take cover behind walls and typical cover or it'd actually just a less effective tank.
What if you fall inside a river or something while in armor tho
@@SonsOfLorgar If you really want you can make something float. Even if it's brick out of lead. I'd say some emergency floaters, maybe?
@@SerinaDeMadrigal well if the suits are armoured enough, why ride inside the vehicle. Add fold down running boards to the outside of your APCs and IFVs and use infantry desant tactics from your tanks; or maybe just use the flatbed cargo carrier variants of your APC.
SonsOfLorgar At first I thought you were going to talk about the engineers who designed the river.
48:29 "Cosplay shooting matches" ... I now cannot get the image out of my head of Sailor Gun Jesus. FML
What is important to realize about the Pre-CNC machine tools is they are absolutely ubiquitous in machine shops, and production lines, not only across the US, but across the world. If well maintained, a milling machine or a laythe from the 1920's will work just as well as a modern production one, if necessary can be adapted to use digital readouts or even computer control, and will still churn out metal components from metal blanks today just as well as it did a 100 years ago.
As a matter of fact, these machines tend to be preferred both by machine shops, private individuals, and businesses alike, simply because theyre still good machines, and theyre cheaper than new production. Besides from very specialized tools, such as barrel rifling tools, theyre also perfectly capable of most machining tasks, not just that of producing guns.
If youre interested in old, precnc machining equipment, go see if you can find a machine shop or maker space, and check the production date on the big milling machines and laythes. They will almost always be from 1950 or sooner. My university in particular has german and american milling machines and laythes from the 1940's in the prototyping labs.
Not in the sense they are talking about though. He's referring to the era of manufacture when making a single gun took a mile long wearhouse, and each piece of the gun took a line of 20-30 single operation dedicated shapers pushing form tools over custom fixtures. The little ejector in a p08 might have taken 20 dedicated machines to produce. This is a very long sight from putting a VFD and a DRO on a bridgeport.
@@GunFunZS 20 dedicated milling machines lined up on a factory floor, each with a tool for one specific operation and an operator, or mechanical linkage running a specific single pass program does not change the facts that pre CNC machine tools are commonly just known as machine tools, and ubiquitous in most places that would have machine tools. I dont see what youre trying to contradict here.
If the viewer wants to see a specific machine tool that has been used in some specific assembly line, sure, they can go look for factories that still have them, such as the case with FN as Ian brought up, but there is nothing fundamentally special about "machines that produced guns pre cnc" besides the fact that they may at one point have been in a gun factory. The question was phrased in such a way that there appeared to be a belief that such machines were different in some way from those used to produce any other metal product at the time, and those machines, are still all over the world, doing the exact same thing they did back then.
@@SigneOtter I agreed that old tools are good. Also I don't disagree that machine tools are machine tools.
What I was trying to convey is that the kind of tools you are describing as widely in general use aren't what most of the guns were produced with at the big arsenals. They had machines specialized for mass production rather than a one off part. You aren't going to find shapers and huge rifling lathes at your local fabrication shop. You will find a small universal lathe, and an end mill. Sure they are period machine tools, but they won't recreate the methods of production used for mass production in that era. I would love to have any of the above though. My current tooling is very limited.
@@GunFunZS The only gun specific tooling I think you could possibly be referring to is stamping machines, or stamping presses, possibly forging machines with gun specific dies? Even those are universal machines though, that would require only the replacement of a die in order to produce any other given product that requires that machining operation. Guns are not special.
+Geeky
Whether you use universal or specialized machine depends on the number of units you're pushing what is cheaper and makes more sense.
If it's a small batch,after which you plan to re-tool, universal machine all the way. If you set up a production line in the millions, it is probably a lot more productive to use specialized machines.
Also CNC isn't the only thing there was.
NC was also a thing.
Friendship ended with Delta Point Pro.
Now Aimpoint is my best friend.
*shuts off camera*
"Bung on the Mingus, Dharma, there's a good lass."
In relation to factory tooling, I've got a theory about mid century furniture. Essentially, the boom in curvy post war furniture came about because of an abundance of gun stock lathes surplussed after the war. Companies like Herman-Miller bought up these lathes on the cheap and used them to make furniture.
I know this is an older video but, if anyone is looking for a museum that has pre-CNC gun making and you happen to be in New England. Go to the American Precision Museum in Vermont. In the middle of nowhere is where production parts interchangeability and mass production got it's start. It is a tiny museum but it is very important to the evolution of guns and machining.
dear god please the next time there's a WW1 or WW2 match bagpipes for 'going over the top'. it would be a sight to behold.
Also PSA: pipers walk up and down so they're a moving target, usually for their own side
I had the same problem with my tendency to take things apart when I was a child and losing parts. Glad to see I was not the only one.
35:40 If you're ever in Vermont check out the American Precision Museum in Windsor Vt. It's in the original Robbins & Lawrence Armory. It has some of the old machinery to make some of the first guns with interchangeable parts among other cool stuff. It's less than 2 hours up the highway from the Springfield Armory National Historic Site.
Bonus; Harpoon Brewery is just up the road.
that could easily be a whole video series for this channel. Love the idea
That would be a great weekend trip for anyone in New England. You could go to the Colt building in Hartford, then hit the Springfield Armory National Historic Site. Ending at the American Precision Museum. I bet there are other historic gun places along the Connecticut River that I can't think of right now. All that and Vermont beer!
That integrated bipod for the AR handguards actually sounds amazing. Make a minimalist, lightweight AR that still has features you could feasibly need.
Always felt the same about the L85A2. I've had the pleasure of meeting those people too. The "You've never worked with an A2, you wouldn't know how good it is". And it's true, most of us will never handle an A2, but most Brits will never handle any other rifle either. It works both ways.
"I already have ideas on another book project"
Either tell me it's a comprehensive book on Chinese mystery pistols or tell me how much money it will take to MAKE it that.
0
"Cosplay shooting matches"
so kinda like what that guy dressed up as 2B was doing.
Only with less traps and frills
I don't care if it's a trap or not. If they shoot competently, they're good. The 2nd Amendment didn't write WHO shall exercise that right...
"A well costumed Militia being necessary, to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and wear Garb, shall not be infringed."
Thanks for making the time to do what you do!
I really have had to pare down the time I spend watching stuff. But yours is absolutely one channel I sit and enjoy.
Thanks again.
I think the L85A2 can be perfectly summed up by the fact that the SAS doesn't use it. They used M4s, and, now HK416s.
Anon Nymous They used m16s aswell
As far as I know they have never used Hk416s, or even technically "M4s" for that matter. The standard rifle they use is the L119A2 which is a custom Colt Canada C8 IUR, and before that it was the L119A1 which is a custom Diemaco C8 SFW/CQB. They have used standard M16s in the past (mainly A1s but some A2s) but they also used a lot of Diemaco C7s and in the early says commercial AR-15s. Either way, it is not a simple argument to claim that they use the AR over the L85, as the thing is they adopted the AR as their standard platform before the L85 even existed as an alternative to the SLR.
The Royal Marines don't use the L85 anymore either.
@@Vulf_Faolan The Royal Marines are classified as an elite force but not as special forces.
In essence they are the Navy infantry but are highly specialised.
Perhaps like UKSF they are able to select equipment themselves.
Anyone know?
@@Vulf_Faolan That is mostly untrue. The majority of the Royal Marines are equipped with standard infantry weapons. The only exceptions are the Royal Marines Police close protection teams, the Brigade Patrol Troop, and most significantly in terms of numbers some of 43 Commando (what was the Fleet Protection Group). The last of these is a bit scandelous in my opinion, as it seems that there motives for using the L119A1 were more political rather than practical just wanting to be seen as more "special" than other RM units. The reason they gave for why they had to switch was that the L119A1 could more reliably use low velocity frangible ammunition which seems like a good idea for a unit that is designed to fight on ships and protect nuclear assets, but the problem is that as far as i know they have never used frangible ammo so that is clearly just an excuse. Regardless, I imagine that if that was the desired intent the L85 and L22 would actually be a better option as they have adjustable gas blocks with an open setting for adverse condition which would allow them to cycle lower powered ammo. Regardless of all of that, the vast majority of the Royal Marines are still issued L85s, probably somewhere in the region of 95%+.
I love the fact that Ian is a Jazz/ metalhead. My life is complete
Ian, if you had 36 hours in a day to do FW/IR stuff, you'd just end up wanting 48 hours.
Time stamps! Woho, thank you!
Quiet, the man is talking
Big thing with 9x39 however is it uses the same receiver and bolt as a 7.62x39, granted it isn’t as easy as swapping an AR barrel but for those that build their own AKs it’s really not a big deal. Piedmont cartridge company is about to begin production of US made 9x39 brass cased cartridge with 3 bullet options (plinking, hunting, sub sonic) that will be cheaper then the current offerings by wolf ($1 per round roughly) Krebs is coming out with US made 9x39 magazines, and because of 9x39s low pressure a 9mm pistol suppressor should suffice out of a shorter barrel. All in total a home builder like myself just needs to either shorten my bolt carriers piston, or do a half DI half long stroke system like piedemont, press a new barre in ($200-250) and then either find AS-Val mags or buy krebs mags with a US made ammo source or imports from wolf. Not as bad as it’s made out too be, besides the suppressor commonality it’s quite similar to taking a 5.56 arsenal and making it 300 blackout
Isn't 9x39mm already sub sonic? Why make a sub sonic round of an already sub sonic round?
Yep I've already built one. Have to use Unimags and load them to only 5 rounds until they figure out that side of things, but I built a custom suppressor specifically for the caliber, and out of a 7.5 barrel with a 12 inch can, it is quieter in the AR platform cycling than .300 BLK with a can of the same length and design (all legal form 1's). Dialed the gas down with an adjustable gas block and light buffer so it requires only a little force to cycle the action. As long as it catches on, the ammo prices will drop, .300 BLK used to be more expensive than the current Wolf offering.
Just like 300BO there’s super sonic and sub sonic
Just like 300BO there’s super sonic and sub sonic
Just like 300BO there’s super sonic and sub sonic
Strapping a massive 30mm grenades backpack to a dude in a power armor is asking for a massive explosion if anything goes south xD
*Stares in WW2 Flame thrower backpack anger*
Prepare to wait a long time on that FAL.
DSA is backlogged and slow. Im waiting on an FAL pistol that's taking 3 months, when they told me it'd take 1.
I was told 2 weeks ago that it was in the shipping department, and ready to ship. Called yesterday and was told that it's actually still two weeks at least away from being shipped.
Just prepare to wait.
If Ian likes jazz and firearms, he should try watching Cowboy Bebop. Great jazzy soundtrack, and despite being animated all of the firearms on the show are portrayed fairly realistically. Spike uses a Jericho 941, and sometimes you can see actual trade dress and caliber designation on the guns if you pause at the right time.
kurosawaftw7 see you later space cowboy
I could definatly see Ian listening to space lion as he slowly cleans his RSC
Ian, you wouldn't look out of place in an English Civil War re-enactment, though you'll need to get yourself a pike...
Nah bro, just get a tan-toe made of folded moon steel...
No Ian would look quite sporting as a Cavalier Horseman with a brace of wheel lock pistols.
I think the trick to making a decent ammo counter system is going be 1.) Having the magazine component be a drop-in aftermarket mod for existing mags (so baseplate, follower, etc. replacement) and 2.) E-ink screens in order to be power efficient and visible in daylight. The durability factor is already handled, slide red dot manufacturers have that solved. The problem that needs to be addressed is making a system that is affordable, easy to install, easy to use, and accurate.
A last : Gun Jesus in leisurewear with plastic plants thrown in. He’s got the Hefner look down to pat. Epiphany, truly.
An armored exo-skeleton/light mech with a shoulderable M2 Browning or 14.5mm anti-material rifle is a wet dream for me
I think the most immediate use for a powered exosuit would be to push crew serve weapons down to the individual soldier level. So instead of 2-3 guys working mortars, heavy MGs, etc., you have one guy with the exosuit carrying the weapon and its ammo, providing squad level support with it.
well if I didna like the show already. You being a Piper is outstanding.
Congrats on 1.1 million subscribers
The way to describle how Ian looks: MAJESTIC AS FUUUUUUUUUCK! Looks like the ultime military arms teacher.
The secret to keeping the hair and beard whilst re-enacting is to do something pre-gunpowder (and not roman) Swords, spears, shield walls, mead! It's great
Thanks for answering my question about the VZ58, Exactly the answer I was looking for!
The power armor argument probably dates back to the first cave man to suggest pants .
I am not interested in reenacting either but I do really appreciate the way those guys preserve and present the history of the common soldier. I always enjoy their displays.
LOL, I artifically "aged" one of my AR builds by running parts through my brass tumbler. Since I was going retro on the build, it turned out pretty good. Biggest issue I had, was finding original 20 round GI Spec. magazines. Locally, all sources have dried up, and ordering via the internet is too much of a hassle due to my State's Cap Restrictions, even when you're exempt.
You truly are a wealth of knowledge. I appreciate what you do.
You say you cannot re-enact with your hair and facial hair but you are ready for a role as a Royalist re-enactor from the English Civil War.
Liked the long style of q and a didn't mind putting it on in the background like a podcast!
I am from Fife in Scotland it was a pleasant surprise that you said you play the bagpipes :)
Re: 9x39: Barnaul will produce a 7.62x39 subsonic with around 200gr bullets, no need for a exotic caliber if you want a quiet AK.
Thanks for your time Ian. I enjoyed it!
Upon rewatch: Ian's slightly sheepish remark that he already had videos about what he was considering as his next book topic brought up a mental picture of the cover of _Bergmann to Bergmann: Bergmann Automatic Pistols 1893-1921_ - and it is _glorious._
The RAF Regt used shotguns in Belize for jungle training during the 1980's. We had a couple of pump action shotguns in our armoury which were issued when crews went into the jungle to do patrols
It's the Chauchat. Ian's favourite WW1 MG is the Chauchat. I might be memeing but I'm banking on it.
I think he will like the MG08-15. It's a more functional machinegun, just less functional as a 'rifle'
Dudes, everybody knows the Madsen utterly spanks every other portable firearm available in WWI.
The definition of a gentleman- a chap who knows how to play the bagpipes, but doesn't.
4:08 They should use that as a promotional blurb on next year's brochure. "'Less total garbage than I was really anticipating,' says Forgotten Weapons' Ian McCollum!"
I suspect Ian likes Sabaton.
lol lolo who doesn’t?
Or iron maiden
Great... now I imagine Ian marching over the battlefield, Chauchat straped to the back, playing Scotland the Brave on his bagpipe..
Homebrewing is a suprise to me. IIRC theres a q and a where you talk about an aversion to drinking beer
1:07:44 - "As i kid i had a history of taking things apart... and not always getting them back together" OMG man, well said - we were for sure cut from the same cloth. Trash day in the summer i would roll around on my bike and come back home with a stash of electronics to dismantle and learn about, which later turn into repair once i had so many parts laying around the shed. I still recall getting my first 13" black and white TV from the curb and fixed busted connector and then hooking up one of the betamax players i was able to get working. Ahhh the good old days!
I mean, you could reenact the Wild West just fine.
I've used the L85 A1 and an A2, plus train cadets on the L95 A2. People in the US forget that the M16 not very good when it was issued to their Army in the 1960's
The problem the m16 had were from our military poorly supplying and training the soldiers on how to maintain it. They also choose not to chrome the barrels when we needed to
1:13:00 Manger, we call where you were born a manger, but barn is close enough, so fair one.
I still see a SMG having a big potential. I dont know why we dont issue them to vehicle crews and Pilots. A small MP9 or SIG Copperhead would still be small enough but much more effective than a M9/M17. If a blackhawk has a soft crash in Afghanistan, having the pilots with a SMG is much more effective fighting tool while waiting for QRF and rescue.
Would you consider the FN P90 for the same roll? In your opinion, is there any pratical difference between the modern PDW concept and an SMG?
@@jtilton5 It would be effective, but introducing another ammo type into the system would be expensive.
@@brabblemaster401 that is a very good point. Though that can be somewhat mitigated by it being manufactured by a NATO ally. Also the armor piercing ability of the 5.7 may be worth the cost to the millitary, especially if it is issued only to heliocopter and-or fixed wing aircraft crews.
I think there have been blackhawk pilots that used the MP5 or MP5k as a weapon when they crashed or incase they did
@@jtilton5 Very well could be. Both would be better than a M9 only.
IIRC. A guy who knew the man who was killed by the Lee Navy accidentally reloaded his ammo with .243 bullets which were too big for the bore. He was even having trouble cambering the ammo at the time it happened.
Ian can re-enact stuff from the 1600's.
I think a French musketeer re-enactment would be a perfect fit. :)
Ian raises an interesting point on Sporterised rifles. My dad, when he was young, picked up a hunting rifle that I found out is actually a BSA P17. Basically a WW1 P17 sent to the UK, probably during WW2, and then after the war surplussed to a sporting rifle company and quite nicely converted into a hunting rifle in a factory.
A lot of the military items have been removed (such as the font/rear sights & wood forstock) so it would be a lot of money and work to "fix" it. Right now it shoots very well and is quite a nice looking rifle as is with decades of wear and handling as a used rifle. With its traceable history that wasn't just some bubba conversion I think it has fallen into this "historical conversion" category.
Also I can mount a scope on it and not feel bad as it is already tapped for it, although I don't think that is factory.
Ooooh, stories from the off-grid? It really brings me back to the settler days to live simply; camping and the like.
We have one of the Fite-Light belt fed uppers at the range I work at attached to a post 86 FA lower. The feed tray cracked and dead-lined the gun before it even had 10K rounds through it. And the feed tray is a $500 replacement part.
500 bucks for a feed tray? Jeezus. I don't think I've ever seen a feed tray crack before either now that I think about it. How does that even happen lol. I don't think I'll save up for one of those.
For that destructive test. I wonder if you might be able to get a super accurate high speed camera so we can really break down the failure in a granular way. I know Destin has one for smarter everyday and does a firearm related video from time to time as well.
Which reminds me how 9x39 soviet weapons are super unknown. That would make for some great videos !
Soviet loved the fight stopping power, did not like the poor accuracy
Your hair makes you the perfect wild Bill Hickok reenactor
My hair makes me the perfect Kojack reenactor : -)
The Cody Firearms Museum had an admittedly small collection of old Winchester machines that were fascinating to look at. I'm not sure how they will integrate into the remodel, but it'd be really cool to see you dive into that collection again, if you have the time!
Also, I've seen several images of modern Brit troops with pointmen rocking Benelli shotguns. They seem to have that role still in several places
Last time I was this early the French still had red pants.
*THE RED PANTALOONS ARE FRANCE*
How do you know what they wear under their trousers
Karl Arty indy neidell says that Phrase like a boss.
Gun Jesus said he loves us. That made my heart melt.
Ian playing the bag pipes is one of the least surprising things i've ever learned
Yeah what you do is not reenacting but I'd prefer it termed "Living history tactical research" over mil-cosplay.
or "Experimental archaeology" . . .
Ian is going from Gun Jesus to Colonel Sander's great grandson.
I was hoping you would say WhatPriceGlory and I chuckled when you did. I replicated a 1944 airborne loadout through them and the gear was superb.
Since you mentioned that handguard in the video on InRange I think it's safe to say they'll be backordered for like two years.
Yo, Ian, pick up the phone!
I'll have to call you back, I'm in the middle of filming a Q&A.
🎼 hello, is it me you’re looking for...🎼
Lithgow in Australia still have all the machines for the Enfields
bagpippes!!! I want to see that!
My dad used to yell at me for the same thing!! Taking apart his power tools n other bits to see how they work, then putting them half back together
Springfield Armory National Historic Site does, in fact, have some of their manufacturing tools on the floor. There’s even a button that turns it on to show how it works.
Thank you for answering my question
l think working exoskeletons would absolutely change gun design, although perhaps not going as far as automatic cannons. Maybe we'd see 20 pound battle rifles become standard, with extremely heavy barrels and large magazines. Maybe handheld .50-cals too?
Looking forward to seeing the convoy dust test on inrange with the Israeli FAL!
My mom would approve of the use of the "blue willow" style mug. (:
Looking forward to Project Lightning!
@ 51:30 -- vz58 upgrade; Dvor is running a special on the Mako folding stock this week. Hurry & get yours today! X-D
My parents also lamented the difference in my ability to disassemble something versus my ability to reassemble it.