This is why I love SJU! No where else can you get such interesting discussions about film. Loved today's show and thank you for making me think about film and Nostalgia' effect on films. For me I loved The Force Awakens even though I admit it was safe but it reminded me why I love Star Wars and gave me new characters to love and root for. When I saw The Last Jedi I enjoyed it but at the end I didn't feel excited about the franchise. I didn't feel it built upon what was established in the previous film.
Twin Peaks: The Return is an interesting commentary on nostalgia and the way David Lynch doesn't allow the audience to get certain moments or call backs in huge doses. I feel that and Blade Runner 2049 did a great job of being sequels while also being their own thing and not enslaven to the previous material that they were following.
The Last Jedi is just like Empire Strikes Back. Empire has a different feel than New Hope. Empire does things differently than New Hope. Last Jedi does feel different than Force Awakens. I love what Rian Johnson did with Luke in Last Jedi.
Am I the only person who didn't feel as though TLJ us as subversive as people are saying? The plot with General Holdo and Poe (one person creating conflict by purposefully withholding information from the other person) is something that I've seen in many TV shows and movies, and it was my least favorite aspect of the movie because it felt tired and unnecessary. I also disliked Rose and Finn's storyline because the animal cruelty angle felt, again, very "episode of the week" and out of place in the context of the larger story. The aspects of TLJ that bothered were these subplots that struck me as being repetitive and obvious as opposed to subversive and thoughtful. I completely understand if others feel differently about the film than I do, but I don't know if I agree with the notion that "fans didn't like TLJ because it was too subversive" because it's a broad statement that doesn't take into account the varied responses from a multitude of fans.
I actually went to Communications School (bacharel in advertisement and propaganda) and we study communication theory, mostly with the works of Umberto Eco. So Roth, yes, even when directors are purposefully avoiding telling you what to feel they are still manipulating you into something, even if that something is "figure it out by yourself " we learn in school that every single communication (like Billy talking about what he did last night) is in fact manipulative to convey a message. Because to say anything at all you need to be aware of how people will interpret it. That is the basis of any communication be it verbal or visual I could talk about this for hours but I'll just say this was a very interesting show and very interesting discussion I absolutely loved it
The Force Awakens is the first Star Wars movie that I've seen so I don't believe nostalgia plays a role in what a think about this movie and Talso The Las Jedi. And after watching the rest of the movies in the saga I love TFA even more. than the first time. Yes, I can see the critcism of being so similiar to A New Hope but for me the new characters was one of the main factors that made me want to see the other films. So for that TFA will always have a special place in my heart . We'll see how I feel about this movie in 10 or 20 years from now. Maybe I will think "WTF I was thinking liking that thing", like I do now with many TV series and movies that I loved when I was younger, or maybe I'll love it even more. Only time will tell...
Candace Williams I don’t have the deep emotional connection to Star Wars that most fans have. But based on what I’ve seen I already think I’ll love this new trilogy more than the original.
+Billy Business did a very good job of pointing out that we all use some type of manipulation when we tell anyone story (In a general sense). Manipulating words and concepts for some emotional response or connection is truly a basic part or nearly all forms of communication.
The Star Wars audience isn't some monolithic hive mind. A lot of people like Star Wars. Some of them liked Force Awakens, some of them liked Last Jedi, some liked both, and some liked neither. Things get even more complex though, because even with fans who disliked both films, it doesn't necessarily boil down to the factor of nostalgia. I'll use myself as an example and just say I hated Last Jedi because it was poorly paced, in bad need of editing, and focused to much on trope subversion than on developing an interesting story, although it had good bits in there. I had no problem with the amount of capital ships. I just think there's a lot more nuance among Star Wars fans than people gives credit to; the cliche that we're a bunch of fickle cavemen is kind of stale at this point. It IS possible to satisfy the majority of Star Wars fans and I'm really looking forward to JJ directing the third film in this trilogy (if that's still happening).
Thank you for at least acknowledging legitimate problems that shouldn't be brushed under the rug by 'nostalgia dissonance' which is partially applicable at best.
But, he's 40! If what he says is true and the last time that he saw Mighty Ducks (MD3 was in 1996) was before leaving college, then he was 20 in the 90s! He should be past the adulting stage and have accepted adulthood. And I thought Dan was the old guy of the group... 0_0
My feelings about Nostalgia can be summed up in a quote from the best Star Wars movie released in my lifetime "Let the past die, kill it if you have to." My big gripe regarding this Generation Nostalgia that we currently live in is, what do people in 30 years get ou of looking back at this time? There is such a small amount of new, interesting, thought provoking anything that has come to fruition in this decade. Think about how many movies/TV shows have been made that are set in the 80s in the last 5 years? Look at how many are rumoured to be? Nothing hits this point harder to me than hearing numerous people (that I don't know) call Ready Player One, References: The Movie when seeing the trailer. It's too much Nostalgia now, we are inundated with it and deserve/yearn for new. Besides have you ever actually tried to revisit things from your youth that you loved? Holy shit, leave it in your memories people! TMNT 2: Secret of the Ooze does not hold up, and the majority of things don't (but the OG 1990 TMNT works on many levels)...Let the past die.
Sam Anderson in regards to the new star wars content and to phrase fromt the greatest star wars movie of my lifetime, "Star Wars, youve changed... you're going down a path i cannot follow"
Lol couldn’t disagree more. Can’t wait to see Ready player 1. The OG TMNT is way better than part 2 but I love them both. I don’t rewatch old things to judge the quality. Yea I’ll notice things I didn’t when I was younger, but I watch it and remember how I felt when I watched it as a kid, and what was happening at that time in my life and it’s nice.
Dakota Foote Exactly my point about looking back on now in the future. Our pop culture is pure derivative based solely in Nostalgia & that's the problem. Make new stuff, be original, sure learn from history but don't repeat. That's my problem, I hate Nostalgia being the driving force, that's what needs to die.
Every generation could say the same thing. There’s plenty to be nostalgic about even if it’s not immediately obvious to you. There’s Pixar and a ton of other animation in both TV and the movies. Children’s and young adult books are extremely popular. Not to mention a lot of the things our generations get nostalgic about are things previous generations get nostalgic about. There’s a reason popular superheroes have been around for decades. They keep getting reinvented for each generation.
Loved the long conversation! I love Roth. Yes, Spielberg is a master of his craft AND the most manipulative. he's the best at it. But since it is his trademark, I guess I do see the strings a bit (it's like a Pixar film, great and well crafted, but there's always the point where they go: time to make everyone cry!!). I agree that every movie wants to make you feel something, even if the director doesn't define what. Like Joe said about mother! I love Scorsese because even though he can have a hold of our feelings shot after shot, he doesn't take it too far. Can you imagine Silence at the hands of a very manipulative director? All the tears. We would have drowned in the theaters and it would have been nominated for every Oscar. But would it have the lasting emotional impact it had? I doubt it. It was the best movie of 2016. I'll always remember it. And I bet I'll forget many of the other tearjerkers of that year. Silence didn't make me cry, but it made me feel. I guess that's why people dislike the noticeable manipulation. Because we see the strings in tearjerkers much more clearly. Scorsese also doesn't spell out exactly what we are suppose to take from his movies. With Spielberg, the message is clear. Scorsese trusts the audience enough to let them take their own conclusions. Sometimes they vary. Just take the Wolf of Wall Street as an example: a lot o people hated it for glorifying bad behavior, "dudebros" saw it as #goals, and I see it a scathing indictment of that time and those people told in a hilarious way. The movie doesn't have a problem. It just shows who we are by the way we choose to interpret it.
also as Spencer pointed out in an earlier episode, WOWS was actually co-financed by laundered money that was stolen BY THE MALAYSIAN PRESIDENT. Not from him. He was one of the orchestrators of the laundering scheme. I bet Scorsese gave zero fucks about that one.
You can make it as simple as this: if your favorite 70/80’s rock group/artist (or any type of music) you want to hear your favorite songs from back then, if they go on stage and only play new songs or songs you’ve never heard before, you typically won’t like it. You want what you expect, if things aren’t what you expect you feel let down or even insulted... same thing with movies...
This explains why my Dad watches the old westerns on the weekends and MASH ever night. I wonder if this is also the reason I have been watching one day at time for the last week, while I didn't see the original the show works on the classic sitcom formal that I was raised on. On a side note if one things about the idea that we do not have sort of style like the 80s and 70s and are just redoing those from the past than nothing is original. Instead everything that is cool and stylish now is nothing more than a copy of something else and if we keep going down this line soon everything will just be a copy of a copy of a copy and we will no longer know what the original was or even if there was one. (Than again maybe I just watched Ghost in the Shell anime series one too many times)
TLJ being too different is certainly part of the reaction, but the larger reason people hate it is that Johnson deliberately obnoxiously shat on all dangling plot threads instead of building off of them. (Also, even by admittedly low Star Wars standards, the movie plainly makes no sense.)
Maybe because of the nostalgia phenomenon are crime shows so popular. Crime shows usually follow the same exact pattern every episode. I already know the bad guy before the detective does and still I tune in and love it !!
Now I have a scientific explanation why I watch reruns of the office, especially now that it's on Comedy Central!! I own all the seasons but if it's on TV I can't not watch it!
Friends is on syndication every day. It's to the point where I tune in for one episode and then notice the next week that they are 2 seasons ahead after going in order.
I don`t watch old Movies (or from my youth) cause i wanna relive my youth, i love the way they were made and how they hold up today! Maybe it`s somekind of nostalgia? I don`t know!
@ Spencer we live in a consumerist, capitalist society and most entertainments main purpose is to help you escape from that reality and make as much money as possible. We are constantly stressed out and worried about our capital or our status in society which results in very selfish mindsets and disrespectful behaviour, especially online. So yeah, if we would live in a better world, we would not get braindead "entertainment" like Fuller House.
> live in a consumerist, capitalist society >most entertainments main purpose is to help you escape from that reality and make as much money as possible. >and make as much money as possible. >much money in conclusion ladies, gents and nonbinaries; escapism from capitalism is to be entertained by capitalism.
Not sure if you're mocking me but it's exactly that, every form of entertainment is escapism from reality, may it be video games, movies or even sports. The fact that all form of entertainment is produced in a capitalistic system only makes sense when it's main purpose to distract us. Consumerism is used to control society through conditioning and emotions, which is really not a secret, everyone who works in marketing knows emotions strongly effect what we buy, which further emphasizes why Hollywood became a nostalgia industry, it takes us to a place where we ache to go again.
playing football with your friends is "escapism" as is running around on a grass field or any other activitiy that requires nearly no money at all. And I'm not mocking you directly but your statement is rather humoristic and absurd, don't you think? Consumerism is not used to control society, it's just that it's largely a very easy way for a handful of money to amass wealth. "The fact that all form of entertainment is produced in a capitalistic system only makes sense when it's main purpose [is] to distract us." This quote i don't understand at all. We could have a society where all companies only purpose is to break even; these movie studios would still be able to provide entertainment value and not be ruled by capitalistic ideals. So, i don't feel like your argument really holds water.
Another TV revival that I think was good was the new Prison Break season. It’s short, sweat, love the chemistry between Dom Purcell and Wentworth Miller and hopefully they return for another season
Answering the title question. I’d like to think of it like a drug addiction. We get that first high and fall in love with it so much. And when something goes away that long and to come back it gets excited cause you feel like you’ll get that same high back.
Joe is oversimplifying the people who criticisms of the new Star Wars films. Star Wars has a huge fan base, there are lots of different kinds of Star Wars fans who want different things. In my experience the people who criticized The Force Awakens for being too derivative are not the same people who criticized The Last Jedi for being too subversive. They’re largely two distinct groups of fans, those who want something nostalgic and those who want something fresh. That said those are not the only types of fans either and most people do want something closer to the middle. Personally I did dislike TFA because it felt like I could see the strings and it was too on the nose, and I really enjoyed TLJ for being as subversive as it was especially in the wake of the last film setting the expectations it did. There were still elements of each I liked/disliked individually, and neither is exactly what I wanted. Anyway its just a bit unfair to group all the fans together as if they can’t make up their mind on what it is they want out of Star Wars.
Manipulation is definitely a word that needs clear definition. Isn't everything manipulation. ..oh never mind I got up to the bit where Billy Business is saying what I was gonna write 😂 No wonder I enjoy this show. Great conversation guys.
You know... The "Background Music" Phenomena (or Background Movie / TV Show Phenomena, in this case) is something worth exploring. There are some songs that I NEED to sing along with (or at least whistle for the instrumentals). But I don't listen to those songs when I have something to do that I need to think about, because I know they'll distract me. Likewise, there are some movies/shows that I NEED to watch again, cuz maybe there's something I didn't see the first time. Then there's Background Music; the songs that I want to hear, but I don't need to engage with. They're just there and that's all I need from them. Same thing with a lot of movies and TV shows. Sometimes I just want to hear some white noise without even watching the thing. It's even better when I've already seen the thing and there's nothing deeper to it than the surface. I know what's going to happen, so I don't need to care. I feel like I should have a conclusion here, but I don't. That's why I want to explore this more, but I've said all I can say. So... Thoughts?
This has been a super-interesting topic though, and while we've touched on the topic of music both in the video, and in the comment section, I actually think that repetition and familiarity is one of the biggest secrets to scoring a movie franchise very successfully. When you think of the old Superman films, you'd hear that theme over and over again. When you think of Jurassic Park, you'd hear that classic theme over and over again. Indiana Jones, Star Wars, Back to the Future, Pirates of the Carribean, Lord of the Rings, even Jaws. They all have this in common. That isn't to say that an individual film can't have an incredible score, but it's why I think for a franchise, it just works better to stick with the same composer, and have them keep adding to their original creation. Heck, a lot of the criticism for the MCU has been levelled at the inconsistent scores, but how many of us got goosebumps when we once again heard Silvestri's Avengers theme playing through the Infinity War trailer? I'm so glad he's both for 3 & 4.
Nicky Morris The next Terminator movie is gonna suck because after that I'm done. I don't wanna see another Terminator movie until Disney tells Fox to buy that franchise and boil it down for a PG-13.
To Billy's point about Fuller House..I grew up loving That 70's show..and that's probably the only reason why I watch The Ranch...I know it's a bad show but I just like seeing Hyde and Kelso on the screen hanging out on a Ranch..I can't remember any of the plot/story/jokes but I remember binge-ing the last season of the Ranch just lying in my bed and feeling good about myself..add some weed to it and talk about self medicating.
I agree with Roth; it's possible to make you feel a broad amount of things, and sometimes some directors do give you freedom of choice, but the truth IS that mostly we go to cinema to be held by the hand and be lead from point A to point B, that's why we don't watch as much "auteur movies" as we "should(?)"...
Remember before The Last Jedi came out when people were convinced Rey was going Dark and Ren was going Light. I'd love it in a blowing up the universe kind of way but could you imagine if that's actually what happened in the movie? If there are people that aren't liking the movie as is for challenging them too much, then people could not handle that at all.
I've been kinda nostalgic lately, because I been watching old Nick shows like Doug and Hey Arnold. I saw those shows, when I was a kid and love them. Those shows are still good, and I'm finding new things in the shows. Batman The Animated Series is so different today, then I saw it as a kid. You realize Batman The Animated Series is a really mature show, it's more mature than most of the Batman movies. I saw Full House as kid, but I don't want to watch it again, maybe because I realize the show was stupid as a teenager. I used to watch Power Rangers, but I don't want to watch it again. Speaking of what movie you should watch, while you making your bed. I'll watch a lighthearted movie like a lighthearted James Bond movie (Goldfinger), than a dark James Bond movie (Casino Royals).
theres a lot of argument and little consensus over high-concept, low concept. I thought of it as a story driven by the central thematic elements versus a story driven by the characters and circumstances without a central theme which makes their actions part of a larger point. In the first the characters are in some manner representational and in the second the characters are independent or aren't vital. itd be interesting to figure out the specific nature and where properties fall on either side, but I think its safe to say that Con-Air is definitely not high-concept except in one very specific understanding of that term.
I think the biggest reason Star Wars messes with so many of the fans is because this was all mapped out before and then they decided that none of it mattered.
Hey Dan, do you enjoy the way Stranger Things handled our nostalgia of the 80's? I am 30 so I am not quite old enough to be spot on with there time, but the story and performances are phenomenal, and to me the nostalgia factor for it absolutely gets me too, even though I am about ten years removed from it. How does it do for you?
The reactions to The Last Jedi are very eerily similar to the initial reactions to the Empire Strikes Back; they changed the feel, and a lot of the initial audiences reacted very poorly. While it's very widely considered the best Star Wars film now, remember, The Empire Strikes Back is also the lowest grossing, and one of the worst reviewed upon release. Meanwhile, Jedi, which I admittedly enjoy more than most, did much better financially AND critically. The long, dark secret is: neither is really a complete movie; Empire has no conclusion, and Jedi really has no introduction. To this day whenever I watch Empire, I have a compulsive need to watch Jedi. And thank you, Dan and Roth, for giving due props to Adam Driver. I love all of the new main characters for Star Wars, but Driver really is the MVP of the new saga thus far. In my opinion, anyway.
gilmore girls reuniun was the last jedi to the guy who like the last jedi, the same felling the star wars fans have with the last jedi to spit in your face becouse you like the nostalgic feeling of star wars
I grew up during the harry potter age. I never read the books. Never red lotr and was left out. So I read the GoT books (asoiaf) to be part of a pop culture movement. Same for MCU. You feel like a part of a world as a massive audiences universal fomo.
The discussion on THE LAST JEDI is so on point. I am one of those who really dislike the film, in part because it trampled on my nostalgia. I always thought the standalones would be the arena for experimentation (paradoxically I find them very conservative) and the Skywalker Saga would be the backward looking saga (again its the most experimental). Perhaps Lucasfilm got it backward?
Same reason retro Jordan's are a billion dollar business. Any normal person yearns for their favorite childhood thing, whatever it may be, to return. It's the same as the psychological "living in the past" things people like, us jocks for instance, wish we were still 17 flying through the air and dominating again. It reminds you of the best things/ times of your life. Who wouldn't want to hold onto those again if they could. The movie industry is no different.
That's fair that you agree, tho I don't think saying TLJ spit in the face of SW nostalgia is very productive, even if you correct yourself it's not a great thing to be putting out there with how polarized the fanbase is.
Yes but they're in a place of influence, and making such statements can only result in a greater divide. There's ways to voice that sentiment that is more responsible given the platform. Just my opinion, I love these guys speaking their mind but they know full well the impact their words can have on fans and need to take that into consideration (as they very often do, just not in this case).
Lucky Day But that's the thing, he corrected himself saying that "spit in the face" was strong language, rather Rian Johnson subverted expectations. I think they understand the power of the words they choose, and the unique position they're in. No malice or intent to mislead, just different perspectives.
Why the MCU works, in spite of people bitching about how tired the Marvel Formula is. DCEU does not have an established formula, partly because they keep changing it. As bad as BvS was, had they kept Snyder's style, people may eventually have bent to it. But it was a bad decision to have a self styled auteur define the style to begin with. Because then you have subsequent productions which rebells against that preset style, that has nowhere else to go. You can't draw charming, superhero atmosphere from a gritty, gloomy universe.
its far simpler its because what was successful in the past creates memories of liking something. So they want to remake the same thing over and over because executives think they have a "formula" for future success rather than take a chance on something new..
"Okay, I didn't say mansplaining, you did. Eisenstein is the first person that really dealt with..." This is a perfect example of why a lot of people struggle to take that term seriously. If a man cut you off like that, and then went on to explain who someone you referenced was (even though no one on the panel questioned it), you'd call it 'mansplaining'. Can we just agree that people of both genders can frequently be patronising arseholes, and it isn't always a sexist thing?
I personally like Fuller House, boy love. I enjoy the cheesy jokes and the old Full House reference but that’s my two sense. It’s not a great show, but I can sit down over a weekend and watch a couple episodes..
Billy got into that Bothsides-ism that people pretend is so profound these days and like any "both sides" argument you end up, when actually pushed comparing ET to Fuller House
Why Is Nostalgia So Profitable? - Because people like to remember the "good old times" from the past. Nostalgia has a way of erasing the daily annoyances we experienced, and it leaves behind only the warm, fuzzy feelings. They were the times before we had to worry about other things running out like time, luck or money. Yes, even just for a moment, life is simple again.
A child with a serious illnesss still has lots of worries as an example. so nostalgia is not a panacea. But generally, yes, it makes me want to kill myself a bit less. That's why I blast 90's hit songs and Mario World 3 music on friday nights.
This discussion was great and it deserved the time devoted to it. Keep it up guys
This is why I love SJU! No where else can you get such interesting discussions about film. Loved today's show and thank you for making me think about film and Nostalgia' effect on films. For me I loved The Force Awakens even though I admit it was safe but it reminded me why I love Star Wars and gave me new characters to love and root for. When I saw The Last Jedi I enjoyed it but at the end I didn't feel excited about the franchise. I didn't feel it built upon what was established in the previous film.
Simon James it seemed cold and inert
Simon James You'd love Red Letter Media. :)
Twin Peaks: The Return is an interesting commentary on nostalgia and the way David Lynch doesn't allow the audience to get certain moments or call backs in huge doses. I feel that and Blade Runner 2049 did a great job of being sequels while also being their own thing and not enslaven to the previous material that they were following.
Billy and Roth: The Carpool Podcast. I'm in.
The car conversation in the mornings makes my commute easier
Gregory Breen how's your uncle Neil?
this is the best episode you ever did. you actully touched on something very serious that i feel needs to be addressed.
People wanna relive their youth
Everyone get a Mid-Life Crisis.
Martha
The offensive example of this is Girl Meets World. They don't even try to hide "the strings" haha
can i just say...I LOVE SJU!!!!!!
one of the only channels i watch everything and watch daily.
❤ you guys.
As always Spencer is always right!!!
The Last Jedi is just like Empire Strikes Back. Empire has a different feel than New Hope. Empire does things differently than New Hope. Last Jedi does feel different than Force Awakens. I love what Rian Johnson did with Luke in Last Jedi.
Exactly. ESB was strongly criticized when it came out and now is the most beloved. Maybe that could happen with TLJ in a few years
that vidbe fake
Am I the only person who didn't feel as though TLJ us as subversive as people are saying? The plot with General Holdo and Poe (one person creating conflict by purposefully withholding information from the other person) is something that I've seen in many TV shows and movies, and it was my least favorite aspect of the movie because it felt tired and unnecessary. I also disliked Rose and Finn's storyline because the animal cruelty angle felt, again, very "episode of the week" and out of place in the context of the larger story. The aspects of TLJ that bothered were these subplots that struck me as being repetitive and obvious as opposed to subversive and thoughtful. I completely understand if others feel differently about the film than I do, but I don't know if I agree with the notion that "fans didn't like TLJ because it was too subversive" because it's a broad statement that doesn't take into account the varied responses from a multitude of fans.
This conversation was so great. Will re-watch a few times. 😉 Great job SJU! Always good to see Mr. Billy Business too.
thanks for watching!
I actually went to Communications School (bacharel in advertisement and propaganda) and we study communication theory, mostly with the works of Umberto Eco. So Roth, yes, even when directors are purposefully avoiding telling you what to feel they are still manipulating you into something, even if that something is "figure it out by yourself " we learn in school that every single communication (like Billy talking about what he did last night) is in fact manipulative to convey a message. Because to say anything at all you need to be aware of how people will interpret it. That is the basis of any communication be it verbal or visual
I could talk about this for hours but I'll just say this was a very interesting show and very interesting discussion I absolutely loved it
The Force Awakens is the first Star Wars movie that I've seen so I don't believe nostalgia plays a role in what a think about this movie and Talso The Las Jedi. And after watching the rest of the movies in the saga I love TFA even more. than the first time. Yes, I can see the critcism of being so similiar to A New Hope but for me the new characters was one of the main factors that made me want to see the other films. So for that TFA will always have a special place in my heart .
We'll see how I feel about this movie in 10 or 20 years from now. Maybe I will think "WTF I was thinking liking that thing", like I do now with many TV series and movies that I loved when I was younger, or maybe I'll love it even more. Only time will tell...
I love this, please give me more of these discussions
I don't have nostalgia for Star Wars (I was never a fan), so I took both new movies at face value and I liked them both.
Candace Williams I don’t have the deep emotional connection to Star Wars that most fans have. But based on what I’ve seen I already think I’ll love this new trilogy more than the original.
that's why Twin Peaks the return was so good because it thrived off manipulating your nostalgia.
+Billy Business did a very good job of pointing out that we all use some type of manipulation when we tell anyone story (In a general sense). Manipulating words and concepts for some emotional response or connection is truly a basic part or nearly all forms of communication.
LOVED this discussion. What a great listen.
I'm glad I'm not the only who hopes for a continuation on the Mighty Ducks franchise. That trilogy was my childhood :D
This. Episode. Is good. Thank you.
The Star Wars audience isn't some monolithic hive mind. A lot of people like Star Wars. Some of them liked Force Awakens, some of them liked Last Jedi, some liked both, and some liked neither. Things get even more complex though, because even with fans who disliked both films, it doesn't necessarily boil down to the factor of nostalgia. I'll use myself as an example and just say I hated Last Jedi because it was poorly paced, in bad need of editing, and focused to much on trope subversion than on developing an interesting story, although it had good bits in there.
I had no problem with the amount of capital ships.
I just think there's a lot more nuance among Star Wars fans than people gives credit to; the cliche that we're a bunch of fickle cavemen is kind of stale at this point. It IS possible to satisfy the majority of Star Wars fans and I'm really looking forward to JJ directing the third film in this trilogy (if that's still happening).
Thank you for at least acknowledging legitimate problems that shouldn't be brushed under the rug by 'nostalgia dissonance' which is partially applicable at best.
This was a really great episode
People ain't allowing cinema to change. New things are judged more harshly than ever before and people hate different more than ever before.
I want to give joe starr a hug...seems like he hates adulting
But, he's 40! If what he says is true and the last time that he saw Mighty Ducks (MD3 was in 1996) was before leaving college, then he was 20 in the 90s! He should be past the adulting stage and have accepted adulthood. And I thought Dan was the old guy of the group... 0_0
My feelings about Nostalgia can be summed up in a quote from the best Star Wars movie released in my lifetime "Let the past die, kill it if you have to."
My big gripe regarding this Generation Nostalgia that we currently live in is, what do people in 30 years get ou of looking back at this time? There is such a small amount of new, interesting, thought provoking anything that has come to fruition in this decade. Think about how many movies/TV shows have been made that are set in the 80s in the last 5 years? Look at how many are rumoured to be? Nothing hits this point harder to me than hearing numerous people (that I don't know) call Ready Player One, References: The Movie when seeing the trailer. It's too much Nostalgia now, we are inundated with it and deserve/yearn for new. Besides have you ever actually tried to revisit things from your youth that you loved? Holy shit, leave it in your memories people! TMNT 2: Secret of the Ooze does not hold up, and the majority of things don't (but the OG 1990 TMNT works on many levels)...Let the past die.
Sam Anderson in regards to the new star wars content and to phrase fromt the greatest star wars movie of my lifetime, "Star Wars, youve changed... you're going down a path i cannot follow"
Lol couldn’t disagree more. Can’t wait to see Ready player 1. The OG TMNT is way better than part 2 but I love them both. I don’t rewatch old things to judge the quality. Yea I’ll notice things I didn’t when I was younger, but I watch it and remember how I felt when I watched it as a kid, and what was happening at that time in my life and it’s nice.
Dakota Foote Exactly my point about looking back on now in the future. Our pop culture is pure derivative based solely in Nostalgia & that's the problem. Make new stuff, be original, sure learn from history but don't repeat. That's my problem, I hate Nostalgia being the driving force, that's what needs to die.
Every generation could say the same thing. There’s plenty to be nostalgic about even if it’s not immediately obvious to you. There’s Pixar and a ton of other animation in both TV and the movies. Children’s and young adult books are extremely popular. Not to mention a lot of the things our generations get nostalgic about are things previous generations get nostalgic about. There’s a reason popular superheroes have been around for decades. They keep getting reinvented for each generation.
Roth describing Adam Driver as half anime is my aesthetic
Loved the long conversation! I love Roth. Yes, Spielberg is a master of his craft AND the most manipulative. he's the best at it. But since it is his trademark, I guess I do see the strings a bit (it's like a Pixar film, great and well crafted, but there's always the point where they go: time to make everyone cry!!).
I agree that every movie wants to make you feel something, even if the director doesn't define what. Like Joe said about mother!
I love Scorsese because even though he can have a hold of our feelings shot after shot, he doesn't take it too far. Can you imagine Silence at the hands of a very manipulative director? All the tears. We would have drowned in the theaters and it would have been nominated for every Oscar. But would it have the lasting emotional impact it had? I doubt it. It was the best movie of 2016. I'll always remember it. And I bet I'll forget many of the other tearjerkers of that year. Silence didn't make me cry, but it made me feel. I guess that's why people dislike the noticeable manipulation. Because we see the strings in tearjerkers much more clearly.
Scorsese also doesn't spell out exactly what we are suppose to take from his movies. With Spielberg, the message is clear. Scorsese trusts the audience enough to let them take their own conclusions. Sometimes they vary. Just take the Wolf of Wall Street as an example: a lot o people hated it for glorifying bad behavior, "dudebros" saw it as #goals, and I see it a scathing indictment of that time and those people told in a hilarious way. The movie doesn't have a problem. It just shows who we are by the way we choose to interpret it.
also as Spencer pointed out in an earlier episode, WOWS was actually co-financed by laundered money that was stolen BY THE MALAYSIAN PRESIDENT. Not from him. He was one of the orchestrators of the laundering scheme.
I bet Scorsese gave zero fucks about that one.
You can make it as simple as this: if your favorite 70/80’s rock group/artist (or any type of music) you want to hear your favorite songs from back then, if they go on stage and only play new songs or songs you’ve never heard before, you typically won’t like it. You want what you expect, if things aren’t what you expect you feel let down or even insulted... same thing with movies...
@Roth, I too have been using "high concept" incorrectly...for years. We should all have a Spencer-server in our real lives.
I'm just going to add this: Ready Player One
Dan!! We need a Star Trek Discovery review! The ending was great and the twist with Lorca made so much sense about the feel of the show so far.
This explains why my Dad watches the old westerns on the weekends and MASH ever night. I wonder if this is also the reason I have been watching one day at time for the last week, while I didn't see the original the show works on the classic sitcom formal that I was raised on. On a side note if one things about the idea that we do not have sort of style like the 80s and 70s and are just redoing those from the past than nothing is original. Instead everything that is cool and stylish now is nothing more than a copy of something else and if we keep going down this line soon everything will just be a copy of a copy of a copy and we will no longer know what the original was or even if there was one. (Than again maybe I just watched Ghost in the Shell anime series one too many times)
TLJ being too different is certainly part of the reaction, but the larger reason people hate it is that Johnson deliberately obnoxiously shat on all dangling plot threads instead of building off of them. (Also, even by admittedly low Star Wars standards, the movie plainly makes no sense.)
Maybe because of the nostalgia phenomenon are crime shows so popular. Crime shows usually follow the same exact pattern every episode. I already know the bad guy before the detective does and still I tune in and love it !!
Now I have a scientific explanation why I watch reruns of the office, especially now that it's on Comedy Central!! I own all the seasons but if it's on TV I can't not watch it!
I too didn’t see E.T at an early and seeing it in my late 20’s didn’t have the same effect .
I'm sort of the opposite. I saw E.T. at an early age and was so scared by the way he looked, I never wanted to watch it again.
Friends is on syndication every day. It's to the point where I tune in for one episode and then notice the next week that they are 2 seasons ahead after going in order.
I don`t watch old Movies (or from my youth) cause i wanna relive my youth, i love the way they were made and how they hold up today! Maybe it`s somekind of nostalgia? I don`t know!
Roth and Billy Carpool. Just do it.
Dan, "Mother! - It was my problem and now it's yours!" - Oh Dan I so love your brain :)
Joe always finds his way😂
Joe...... finds a way.
Love, Simon is a romcom to watch out for Roth. Hella hyped!!!!
I saw ET for the first time, when I was 20, and I really like the movie. The movie has one of the best friendships in history.
Trinidad Botello because Spielberg uses the most basic tricks in storytelling
Can someone tell me the episode, that I apparently missed, where Dan ranted about "Sea-Quest"? It sounds like it was a good one!
9:40 he hit the nail right on.
My favorite crew :)))
@ Spencer we live in a consumerist, capitalist society and most entertainments main purpose is to help you escape from that reality and make as much money as possible. We are constantly stressed out and worried about our capital or our status in society which results in very selfish mindsets and disrespectful behaviour, especially online. So yeah, if we would live in a better world, we would not get braindead "entertainment" like Fuller House.
> live in a consumerist, capitalist society
>most entertainments main purpose is to help you escape from that reality and make as much money as possible.
>and make as much money as possible.
>much money
in conclusion ladies, gents and nonbinaries; escapism from capitalism is to be entertained by capitalism.
Not sure if you're mocking me but it's exactly that, every form of entertainment is escapism from reality, may it be video games, movies or even sports. The fact that all form of entertainment is produced in a capitalistic system only makes sense when it's main purpose to distract us. Consumerism is used to control society through conditioning and emotions, which is really not a secret, everyone who works in marketing knows emotions strongly effect what we buy, which further emphasizes why Hollywood became a nostalgia industry, it takes us to a place where we ache to go again.
playing football with your friends is "escapism" as is running around on a grass field or any other activitiy that requires nearly no money at all.
And I'm not mocking you directly but your statement is rather humoristic and absurd, don't you think?
Consumerism is not used to control society, it's just that it's largely a very easy way for a handful of money to amass wealth.
"The fact that all form of entertainment is produced in a capitalistic system only makes sense when it's main purpose [is] to distract us."
This quote i don't understand at all. We could have a society where all companies only purpose is to break even; these movie studios would still be able to provide entertainment value and not be ruled by capitalistic ideals. So, i don't feel like your argument really holds water.
Excellent video BTW.
Another TV revival that I think was good was the new Prison Break season. It’s short, sweat, love the chemistry between Dom Purcell and Wentworth Miller and hopefully they return for another season
I didnt like Star Wars the last jedi because i thought it was bad. The Rey, Luke and Kylo Ren stuff was the best in the movie.
Answering the title question.
I’d like to think of it like a drug addiction. We get that first high and fall in love with it so much. And when something goes away that long and to come back it gets excited cause you feel like you’ll get that same high back.
Joe is oversimplifying the people who criticisms of the new Star Wars films. Star Wars has a huge fan base, there are lots of different kinds of Star Wars fans who want different things. In my experience the people who criticized The Force Awakens for being too derivative are not the same people who criticized The Last Jedi for being too subversive. They’re largely two distinct groups of fans, those who want something nostalgic and those who want something fresh. That said those are not the only types of fans either and most people do want something closer to the middle.
Personally I did dislike TFA because it felt like I could see the strings and it was too on the nose, and I really enjoyed TLJ for being as subversive as it was especially in the wake of the last film setting the expectations it did. There were still elements of each I liked/disliked individually, and neither is exactly what I wanted. Anyway its just a bit unfair to group all the fans together as if they can’t make up their mind on what it is they want out of Star Wars.
Manipulation is definitely a word that needs clear definition. Isn't everything manipulation. ..oh never mind I got up to the bit where Billy Business is saying what I was gonna write 😂
No wonder I enjoy this show. Great conversation guys.
You guys are like my white noise. You help me clean the house :)
You know... The "Background Music" Phenomena (or Background Movie / TV Show Phenomena, in this case) is something worth exploring. There are some songs that I NEED to sing along with (or at least whistle for the instrumentals). But I don't listen to those songs when I have something to do that I need to think about, because I know they'll distract me. Likewise, there are some movies/shows that I NEED to watch again, cuz maybe there's something I didn't see the first time.
Then there's Background Music; the songs that I want to hear, but I don't need to engage with. They're just there and that's all I need from them. Same thing with a lot of movies and TV shows. Sometimes I just want to hear some white noise without even watching the thing. It's even better when I've already seen the thing and there's nothing deeper to it than the surface. I know what's going to happen, so I don't need to care.
I feel like I should have a conclusion here, but I don't. That's why I want to explore this more, but I've said all I can say. So... Thoughts?
This has been a super-interesting topic though, and while we've touched on the topic of music both in the video, and in the comment section, I actually think that repetition and familiarity is one of the biggest secrets to scoring a movie franchise very successfully. When you think of the old Superman films, you'd hear that theme over and over again. When you think of Jurassic Park, you'd hear that classic theme over and over again. Indiana Jones, Star Wars, Back to the Future, Pirates of the Carribean, Lord of the Rings, even Jaws. They all have this in common. That isn't to say that an individual film can't have an incredible score, but it's why I think for a franchise, it just works better to stick with the same composer, and have them keep adding to their original creation. Heck, a lot of the criticism for the MCU has been levelled at the inconsistent scores, but how many of us got goosebumps when we once again heard Silvestri's Avengers theme playing through the Infinity War trailer? I'm so glad he's both for 3 & 4.
Nicky Morris The next Terminator movie is gonna suck because after that I'm done. I don't wanna see another Terminator movie until Disney tells Fox to buy that franchise and boil it down for a PG-13.
Dan defending the honor of E.T.
Business almost got the Rant from Dan
To Billy's point about Fuller House..I grew up loving That 70's show..and that's probably the only reason why I watch The Ranch...I know it's a bad show but I just like seeing Hyde and Kelso on the screen hanging out on a Ranch..I can't remember any of the plot/story/jokes but I remember binge-ing the last season of the Ranch just lying in my bed and feeling good about myself..add some weed to it and talk about self medicating.
Why didn't you guys do a cram it for the mcu before black panther or are you waiting for avengers?
OMG....y’all just said “Mighty Ducks 4” and my heart started RACING. Dammit. Now I want that. Sooo bad. *shakes fist at sky
I agree with Roth; it's possible to make you feel a broad amount of things, and sometimes some directors do give you freedom of choice, but the truth IS that mostly we go to cinema to be held by the hand and be lead from point A to point B, that's why we don't watch as much "auteur movies" as we "should(?)"...
80% of movies will try and tell you to feel something. There are some that are just there to be there...
I’m glad there’s a scientific reason that I watch fuller house, because it’s such a guilty pleasure
Remember before The Last Jedi came out when people were convinced Rey was going Dark and Ren was going Light. I'd love it in a blowing up the universe kind of way but could you imagine if that's actually what happened in the movie? If there are people that aren't liking the movie as is for challenging them too much, then people could not handle that at all.
I've been kinda nostalgic lately, because I been watching old Nick shows like Doug and Hey Arnold. I saw those shows, when I was a kid and love them. Those shows are still good, and I'm finding new things in the shows. Batman The Animated Series is so different today, then I saw it as a kid. You realize Batman The Animated Series is a really mature show, it's more mature than most of the Batman movies. I saw Full House as kid, but I don't want to watch it again, maybe because I realize the show was stupid as a teenager. I used to watch Power Rangers, but I don't want to watch it again. Speaking of what movie you should watch, while you making your bed. I'll watch a lighthearted movie like a lighthearted James Bond movie (Goldfinger), than a dark James Bond movie (Casino Royals).
theres a lot of argument and little consensus over high-concept, low concept. I thought of it as a story driven by the central thematic elements versus a story driven by the characters and circumstances without a central theme which makes their actions part of a larger point. In the first the characters are in some manner representational and in the second the characters are independent or aren't vital. itd be interesting to figure out the specific nature and where properties fall on either side, but I think its safe to say that Con-Air is definitely not high-concept except in one very specific understanding of that term.
I think the biggest reason Star Wars messes with so many of the fans is because this was all mapped out before and then they decided that none of it mattered.
Billy is here so we must be talking business 🤣
BUSINESS HAS JUST PICKED UP
People tend to like things they are familiar with, this is actually how our brains work.
Hey Dan, do you enjoy the way Stranger Things handled our nostalgia of the 80's? I am 30 so I am not quite old enough to be spot on with there time, but the story and performances are phenomenal, and to me the nostalgia factor for it absolutely gets me too, even though I am about ten years removed from it. How does it do for you?
The reactions to The Last Jedi are very eerily similar to the initial reactions to the Empire Strikes Back; they changed the feel, and a lot of the initial audiences reacted very poorly. While it's very widely considered the best Star Wars film now, remember, The Empire Strikes Back is also the lowest grossing, and one of the worst reviewed upon release. Meanwhile, Jedi, which I admittedly enjoy more than most, did much better financially AND critically. The long, dark secret is: neither is really a complete movie; Empire has no conclusion, and Jedi really has no introduction. To this day whenever I watch Empire, I have a compulsive need to watch Jedi.
And thank you, Dan and Roth, for giving due props to Adam Driver. I love all of the new main characters for Star Wars, but Driver really is the MVP of the new saga thus far. In my opinion, anyway.
Tell nostalgia sells to Blade Runner 2049
random nerd I don’t know many people outside of the online film community who’ve seen (or are nostalgic for) Blade Runner to begin with..
Jackson Benight I would say your correct, but even Tron: Legacy made more and that's even less popular than BR (than again it was made by Disney)
You may be through with the past, but the past ain't through with you. OR I may be done with this vindaloo but the vindaloo ain't through me.
gilmore girls reuniun was the last jedi to the guy who like the last jedi, the same felling the star wars fans have with the last jedi to spit in your face becouse you like the nostalgic feeling of star wars
I grew up during the harry potter age. I never read the books. Never red lotr and was left out. So I read the GoT books (asoiaf) to be part of a pop culture movement. Same for MCU. You feel like a part of a world as a massive audiences universal fomo.
Honest trailer for Batman TAS! Pleeeeeease!!!
The discussion on THE LAST JEDI is so on point. I am one of those who really dislike the film, in part because it trampled on my nostalgia. I always thought the standalones would be the arena for experimentation (paradoxically I find them very conservative) and the Skywalker Saga would be the backward looking saga (again its the most experimental). Perhaps Lucasfilm got it backward?
Should give Jurassic Park a westworld HBO treatment xD :D
Same reason retro Jordan's are a billion dollar business. Any normal person yearns for their favorite childhood thing, whatever it may be, to return. It's the same as the psychological "living in the past" things people like, us jocks for instance, wish we were still 17 flying through the air and dominating again. It reminds you of the best things/ times of your life. Who wouldn't want to hold onto those again if they could. The movie industry is no different.
If he says Fuller House one more MF'ing time!!
I hope with Terminator 6 coming next Christmas. It might do well to warrant two sequels that might come out in 2021 and 2022.
Yet again, Dan nails how I feel about Last Jedi.
Erik Heisenburg I like how Dan can be objective about it: he describes why some people could feel betrayed, but he doesn’t say it’s right or wrong
That's fair that you agree, tho I don't think saying TLJ spit in the face of SW nostalgia is very productive, even if you correct yourself it's not a great thing to be putting out there with how polarized the fanbase is.
Lucky Day their whole job is to comment on this stuff. Explaining how people feel won’t make anyone feel worse
Yes but they're in a place of influence, and making such statements can only result in a greater divide. There's ways to voice that sentiment that is more responsible given the platform. Just my opinion, I love these guys speaking their mind but they know full well the impact their words can have on fans and need to take that into consideration (as they very often do, just not in this case).
Lucky Day But that's the thing, he corrected himself saying that "spit in the face" was strong language, rather Rian Johnson subverted expectations. I think they understand the power of the words they choose, and the unique position they're in. No malice or intent to mislead, just different perspectives.
Why the MCU works, in spite of people bitching about how tired the Marvel Formula is. DCEU does not have an established formula, partly because they keep changing it. As bad as BvS was, had they kept Snyder's style, people may eventually have bent to it. But it was a bad decision to have a self styled auteur define the style to begin with. Because then you have subsequent productions which rebells against that preset style, that has nowhere else to go. You can't draw charming, superhero atmosphere from a gritty, gloomy universe.
Do you think "Kevin Can Wait" is secretly a reboot of "King of Queens"?
I think its the worst kept secret in show business
its far simpler its because what was successful in the past creates memories of liking something. So they want to remake the same thing over and over because executives think they have a "formula" for future success rather than take a chance on something new..
June 11, 2021- 28 years to the day Jurassic Park dropped in 1993. Perhaps that is why they gave it that date.
Why is everyone interrupting Roth?
"Okay, I didn't say mansplaining, you did. Eisenstein is the first person that really dealt with..."
This is a perfect example of why a lot of people struggle to take that term seriously. If a man cut you off like that, and then went on to explain who someone you referenced was (even though no one on the panel questioned it), you'd call it 'mansplaining'. Can we just agree that people of both genders can frequently be patronising arseholes, and it isn't always a sexist thing?
... Were they "throwing shade" at Jeremy and Chris at the beginning of the video?
How so?
I’m very glad I still came out of TLJ feeling like I did after Force Awakens. Better even. Give up the nostalgia people!
I really liked “Tron Legacy”. I saw it twice in theaters. I’m surprised people didn’t like it and consider it a failure. 🤷♂️
I personally like Fuller House, boy love. I enjoy the cheesy jokes and the old Full House reference but that’s my two sense. It’s not a great show, but I can sit down over a weekend and watch a couple episodes..
Holy shit I forgot the car thing with CS good times hahaha
Ironically, most of the dinosaurs associated with Jurassic Park are actually from the Cretaceous Period.
The return of the ScreenJunkies tiny question mark.
I really just wanna see JTE as Forrest Gump.
Billy got into that Bothsides-ism that people pretend is so profound these days and like any "both sides" argument you end up, when actually pushed comparing ET to Fuller House
I'm not sure what you mean by both sides...explain
I like Fuller House and I have never watched Full House. It's bad, but I laugh quite a lot.
What's the deal with the Sea Quest references lately?
Why Is Nostalgia So Profitable? - Because people like to remember the "good old times" from the past. Nostalgia has a way of erasing the daily annoyances we experienced, and it leaves behind only the warm, fuzzy feelings. They were the times before we had to worry about other things running out like time, luck or money. Yes, even just for a moment, life is simple again.
A child with a serious illnesss still has lots of worries as an example. so nostalgia is not a panacea. But generally, yes, it makes me want to kill myself a bit less. That's why I blast 90's hit songs and Mario World 3 music on friday nights.