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Thanks for making this video.. everyone wants to talk about the lore, or building an army, or thousands of painting video.. but nobody talks about the big elaphant in the room... THE COST!!
Personally I plan on buying a whole lot of bases then making lasrifles and artillery pieces out of RISK sets. I doubt the game is going to go competitive or I'll care too much
Where have you been? You can’t swing a dead cat around the Warhammer community without hitting someone who’s complaining about how expensive the hobby is.
For a while I had my concerns about the price as my main detractor to investing into another tabletop game, however after watching the recent Legions Imperialis Battle Report on Warhammer+ a lot of my worries have been calmed for now. This is mainly because even at the 1000 point army list the players on the BR used the game looked really fun and quite the spectacle with all the infantry and tanks advancing and flanking on a decently decorated 3x3' board. I hope this game really takes off so we can get a full 40k Epic release in the future!
Lol, this is pretty insane, I have been 3d printing epic 40k for nearly 4 years and now I can print legions imperialis, $40 for a bottle which could print out 5000 points
It cost me about 300-400$ for a basic resin printer set up. Assuming I'd need a full bottle of resin to print everything, I could buy my setup all over again, print out 2 legal armies and it would still probably cost several hundred dollars less than the cost of buying one army with the official models.
@@Burzuj89 Exactly, It cost me 300 and about 400 for 10 litres of resin. I have been able to print multiple armies for warhammer 40k, epic 40k, Warlord games and age of sigmar. saved around 5000-6000 dollars in all my 3d printing time for the cost of a single setup which hasn't failed me once and a boat load of Resin. Printing is the way
another reason for a 3d printer - would be interesting to see in 5 yrs if this epic is the new standard and everyone just house rules form the book and prints their own orks and so on. I like that it fits on the smaller tables that GW wants people to cram knights on, as the scale makes so much more sense in practice.
That is already happening. It took about 2 seconds for people to start working up community rules for xenos, and that will evolve as has all of the very active Epic community builds have over the last 2 decades
I'm looking forward to it. Can't wait to actually get my box. Im not too bothered about the price, my dad's hobbies are hunting and fishing, so that has adjusted what an expensive hobby is in my mind lol
The real question (currently unanswerable) is how good is the game - play-wise vs the cost to play. In decades of gaming, I've spent huge amounts of money on games minis, paint, terrain, and all sorts of other accessories - literally tens of thousands of dollars I'd guess. The wasted money is in the games I have not played, the ones I have not enjoyed. Is it expensive, yep, no doubt, but the question I need answered is is it good?????? Of course, GW is also a company that tends to run very expensive in everything. That also hurts the community a lot. They also do regional price divergence and the high barrier ordering complexity and that very much hurts the community. So maybe the question calculation is: how good is the game + how expensive is the game + how much GW supports the community = ?????????
You can watch some gameplay on a few channels now if you aren’t trying to be surprised on release. But it looks pretty balanced and dynamic. An honest critique I have is Astartes aren’t as strong as they should be but regardless, it seems fun
It's basically an evolution of the old 2nd edition Epic; very close to it. So yeah, looks pretty good so far in terms of play, and we'll just have to see how it goes with balance and whatnot
Great points. I think this gaming system will update and take off within the communities. I am hopeful as an apocalypse level gamer in the 40k era (big mistake GW) more players will see the over all cost value of this level of game play and jump on board. The cost is always the killer with GW. Thanks for the review it was pretty informative. 👊🏼🤩
When Adeptus Titanicus released I went to a Warhammer Store that was local and the manager told me that he didn’t order any. He said that if I wanted one I should have pre-ordered it.
And preorder was sold out for a long time. I eventually found one on eBay several months after initial release. And then another. And then dozens of other boxes and supplements. I spent more on AT than I have on the last decade and a half of 40k.
I loved, loved, loved the original Space Marine (Epic) Game. However I'm now retired and I'm still working on 40k and Horus Heresy armies (still no Jump Troops GW??? SERIOUSLY!) So there's NO WAY I'm starting a new scale now. Too bad. They look fun.
Great video and some very important points. I think GW have underestimated the Epic 3D printing community. They've been producing amazing STL support for years out of sheer love and bloody-minded defiance of GW's lack of interest in bringing back the Epic system. Now they want in, they've half-cocked themselves by setting it during the HH and no xenos planned whatsoever. They're late to their own party and the 3D printing community will lock the door. The upscaling seems very naive given how utterly simple it is to edit STL files. They're going to get their arses smacked and rightly so.
The original games started this way as well. If it sells well (i.e. the 3d printer crowd doesn't tank the game), the game likely could expand like happened back in the old AT and SM1st ed days. I have a large format, very nice 3d printer, and I use it more for terrain and alternate models (Lost Kingdom Miniatures Undying Dynasties/Tomb Kings alternatives, for example); but the caveat with 3d printing is the TIME; layouts, design tweaks, printing, cleanup, maintenance. It all eats up time, and the plastics are much faster, clean, and honestly if you factor in time for me are weirdly cheap enough to justify. Gives me back time to teach my 8 year old and actually play the game!
@@bradp6452 they were added later. Original AT was just HH era titans, and they added stuff via WD articles along the way. The first SM boxed set also was just HH era marines and Land Raiders and Rhinos. Xenos stuff really wasn't formalized in a relevant way until SM2nd edition; where they were done up brilliantly, with very distinct army desings and even odd organizational structures (Tyranid Hive War supplement was brilliant)
And, a thing to consider, especially for someone like me: Some people will have to be the primary source for a player group. So, if I want to play with my friends, I have to have BOTH armies to play, if not more. So, that could mean double or triple the price just to have competing forces that can be styled for different scenarios and keeping things interesting.
The starter box seems to be really good value in terms of what they've crammed in there, though the lack of terrain is a major drawback. But it's a pretty small portion (25-30%) of what you'd actually need to build a legal army. And compared to the alternatives, so 3d printing everything yourself or getting someone else to do it for you, the price of building an army with the GW minis is just exorbitant. At this point, I'm pretty set on just buying the book and printing the minis.
Solution: use the models to play minihammer. So much fun, as it gives you the depth of heroic scale with the scale of epic, and means that one box of astartes can make a demi company, or two opposing quarter companies. And of course as ever, 3d printer still goes brrrrt
@@zirrian decals for 8mm models? mate i dont think you need decals for somethign that small. at normal table distance a white dot is indistinguishable from a legion symbol on anythign smaller than a titan
I just bought a single box and based everything on single bases instead of squads... and you can just play normal hours heresy but small. Works on a 1x1 mini board and it's awesome
I am a little concerned about finding people to play with but I'm primarily a collector these days rather than a gamer so I'm still going to pick up an army.
One point on titanicus - nobody asked for it. Epic has several unofficial groups maintaining rules and a large 3d print community producing models, so there was always a demand. But they wanted 40k, not 30k. I have no idea why GW went this route and it almost guarantees a 40k version won't exist, because why would you buy 40k space marines when 30k space marines at 8mm already look correct enough? Its a shame and my friend who played Tyranids years ago in 3rd edition saw it and said he would play when the tyranids were released... then was sad when I told him it was 30k only.
Actually, the answer is very simple. Many people (like me) hoped for regular 40k in epic scale so we can play regular 40k games on a small table with slightly changed rules. That would impact sales of 40k inventory in regular size. GW won't allow that.
@@equos5060 I suspect its more to do with non Imperial Factions barely selling enough to break even... Everyone is always cynical. But these things usually come down to economics. There is a reason why Space Marines are always getting waaay more new things than all the other factions. Sales.
I already have a set on hold. It gives me nostalgia for my old board games Buck Rogers and Gammarauders. I bought it because it would make a great board game out of the box, and painting them will be super easy.
I like your video but I feel your comparison is a little off. The builds you choose to use as examples in your article on Epic are really nice but not fair to compare to your $800 cost of 40K. They should have been compared to the exact army build done in 40K. Me and my son have both bought a starter and swapped the factions. After spending $240 Canadian I am easily 1900 points give or take option changes. That’s basically 2/3 there. If I split another box I would be just shy of the mark for around $360 cdn. This total of course includes the war hounds in the box and based on my Solar Auxilia faction choice. I do believe that the Legiones Astartes has less points in what’s in the box but still way off the $800 mark for a 3000 point build. I admit my math is based on the basic choices but having three 40K armies I know that $800 would not buy you much if trying to match unit representation between games. I play a lot of Flames of War and honestly prefer the smaller scale option. I want to also throw in that epic is cheaper than Flames of War so I can live with the costs to play. I honestly hope it stays small so we can enjoy it, if it get big like 40K then we will have another GW game people just whine about lol. 3d printing crowd will love this as they get way more bang for the buck with smaller pieces to make. Game plays well, I can see my 40K sitting behind glass for a bit on this one. The 30k doesn’t bother me either but know I’m in a minority on that. My thought is we already have one version of 40K to play, that’s enough lol
someone should comment how much it costs to 3d print vs buying the boxes for comparison. the book should of been a free pdf with the option to buy printed,
3D peinting oa rife, for the reasons you said, but also because the profit margins are so high as the official prices for the amount of plastic is very high compared to other games. As for whether to get into the game I would advise everyone to see the interest in their local area. I am lucky that quite a few of my gaming buddies jave large armies and are really into it. I do see a lot of people selling off their collections on ebay, so a few bargains can be had but supply is still low (driving up demand for 3D printed stuff where the quality has improved bu leaps and bounds compared to a few years ago).
The cost is undoubtedly high but folk always miss over the MOST important part of any game system. You don't need to buy it at once. You can buy it over a year. The cost conversation also misses the cost of other games in the hobby sphere. If you want everything for Ravaged Star, that's $1000 and there isnt even a list system. Did folks only buy an optionless 2000 point list for 40k/ AoS. No. You spend $2000 on your faction. Cost is a conversation that folk need to be having over 6 months or a year.
Let's make it so expensive they have to buy it over an entire year, so milk them for every dollar. What a defense! I'm glad I got out of this mindset and stopped supporting these companies
Bang on. For me, I get hours of enjoyment from building and playing the games that the cost is pretty much insigificant to me, and I'm not even rich. Bang average wage in the UK, two kids to look after, a little side hustle playing in a band. I just buy less over a longer period of time - I don't just splash £1k at a time on full armies. I just slow grow. £30-60 a month, sometimes £100 a month. That's well within my affordability and I'm not going crazy. I'm not interested in owning a 3D printer either. I don't have the room, nor the effort and time to learn about it. I know I COULD but I just don't care tbh. I like buying little add-on bits from Etsy stores but then it doesn't really become cheaper than buying from GW.
I like that the rules use blind orders and alternating activations, those alone make the game far more tactical than anything else GW makes. And I will definitely be 3D printing up a pile of tiny dudes. No telling if anybody else in the area will be into it though.
I wanted/still want to get into Titanicus but haven't been able to find anyone to play. I was hopeful when LI came out and included some rules for the models from Titanicus that maybe I could just port them over.... but still haven't found others. But this point I'm basically waiting for my son to get old enough to play, or for my wife to get interested in trying. 😅
With any GW. The game will probably be fairly good. The problem mis the cost. If the troop units were way less. I think that would help push the game forward. But if we’re talking crazy, if the boxes retailed for 20% less over all. I think the cost slow down 3d sales and get more people into the game.
You could buy the entire star wars legion republic and Separatist clone wars catalogue for under 800 bucks. That's two entire armies for less than one gw 40k army (using discounts), but people are gw fan boys
@@iain-duncan G.W is expensive and I honestly don't know how kids get into the hobby now but then so is a lot of other things triple A video games for example but to be fair to them they are the only gaming company that runs stores (As small as some of them are becoming) and still produce a magazine. This maybe their way of getting that popularity but in this day and age of the Internet I don't think they can enforce anything.
One thing is sure. Rulebooks are going to be selling pretty good😊 And for the actual models? Well, small, well detailed models is literally what resin printers are good for, right?😂
If you have a strong gaming community, it’s not that bad my store is selling the box for 170. I am splitting the box, usually in my group some will buy a box and sell the models they don’t need.
GW's pricing is ridiculous in my opinion!!!! I left GW about 5yrs ago due to their pricing after playing since 1986. I have passed on anything else after Custodes. I have gone back to other games I played in the 80's like Battletech and I play a lot of Warlords historical's.
I was hoping this was going to be the cheaper alternative to 40k. I love the scale down size actually makes owning an army look really impressive. I'm so disappointed at the 3k point cost.
The beauty of the tiny scale is that you can apply 40k rules to the tiny models and have "epic" battles. You might not have the expanded list of weapon options, but you can convert models to suit
Now that we know the prices I find the infantry isn't priced too crazy. What seems extra insane to me is the tanks. Why in the world would I pay $50 for two pieces of plastic smaller than my thumb? From a materials standpoint it doesn't make sense, from a points value it doesn't make sense, they aren't even immensely detailed or anything special at all. Why the high price? I'd be questioning at $25-30 for two tanks, but $50?! Totally insane, especially when you consider the fact that two warhounds are close to the same price.
My regret with GW, i arrived in store at the end of EA, 96 and 97. After secondary school. next to zero disposable income. I was able to grab some of the end of line infantry boxes. I have X boxes in archive. they will Not be touched, near close to MIB and never for sale. I have enough OOB to make a few squads. LI is where I really desire to build paint and play. Coming in at open with rumours and hearsay that LI will incorporate as strong as HH has, as long as HH does, fills me with much desire. Admittedly, I feel like my army will end up looking far more like it could easily adapt to 40K setting, many primary tanks and quadruple that in infantry. Considering it looks like most boxes will be a days wages or less, I'm more than happy to just trickle boxes into my pile of not-right-now-but-real-soon every week. I dont think i'll be assessing how much i spend, but i will be trying to float a serious army, if not a chapters worth eventually. - smolbois are my weakness -
Man I already print epic 30k. But I am curious about their rules. I'm still up in the air about getting the rule book or starter set. I've seen photos if some of the space marine minis with a significant amount of extra plastic to support the tiny detail but my printer already gives me better quality minis for a fraction of the cost
I'm probably going to buy the book and print the minis. Based on what I've seen of battle reports, rules discussions, etc, the rules look to be pretty fun and dynamic. I've been hankering for something like this for awhile. But the price to play with the official models is just too high.
Basing the pricing off points is not a good idea. It should be based off the ratio of plastic/resin required for a full sized Horus heresy compared to plastic/resin for Imperialis. The models do look cool though. What are the rules like, using standard Horus Heresy rules?
@MrGunnar177 to be fair saturn 2 are now only 600msrp not 800 and are even currently on sale from elagoo for 319 so not like it has to be that expensive. also I would argue for epic scale all you need is a mars which is cheaper anyway any way at around 300-400msrp, currently on sale for under the 200 fyi.
Great video, always appreciate your cost analysis. All the content creator videos are nice, but let’s face it, they all get the game for free. That’s not the case for the rest of us. Passing on this one, but will keep an eye on Mantics Warpath epic game coming to KS 1st Q of 2024.
It's really the opposite of Catalyst's Battletech approach. As much as i am an old school Epic fan, i think i will pass on this one. Battletech Alpha Strike is so much less of a $$ sink and it's tremendously fun to play, especially with infantry, tanks, helicopters, aerospace, etc. Plus they don't care whether you 3d print as their force boxes are reasonably priced, so most people buy lots of them.
Damn that is so expensive!!! for models that size it should be like £200-£300 max for an army. There are many more companies doing great games at realistic prices. Lets face it the cost will kill this completely damn starter set for 12mm historical for American Civil war contains over 2000+ minis in a box for £120 inc scenery, making 223 models for GW a joke
Mantic and Warcradle will both be releasing their own epic scale games with hard plastic miniatures early next year that will certainly be much better priced and almost certainly much better rulesets. So... pass on this.
Well, Mantic is running a kickstarter and Warcradle's entry is both not Space Opera Sci-Fi and kinda ambiguous in when exactly it will release..... Those might hit stores later, but they'll probably be better!
"One of your distributors wants to talk to you" - this is GW, literally the biggest. This is not ONE of, this is THE distributor of games. Secondly, it's actually great that GW does that - maintaining relationships with their stores is super important, it allows them to collect feedback and get a feel for the community and general market, outside of their stores.
Hey I feel you but talk to 10 store owners, then come back here with what they told you about this new ordering system lol. I'm not making this up I'm in the trenches talking to distros and stores alike all day every day. GW is not the biggest, they are maybe top 3 depending on a stores product mix. So
Yeah I get that, but I think the ordering system is separate from GW reaching out to stay connected (which was my point). They can absolutely do both. As in, allow stores to order online, and also connect with them individually.@@spikeybitstv
£280 for 3k points, based on new book legitimising super heavy tank companies, so you baneblade out at x2 4 banes and a 2 baneblade hq, 4 knights, 16 russ, x2 8 sentinels, 2 hellhammer, 4 marauder bombers 3120, so dump something (im not decided on that yet but my wasted Saturday night brain could be messing me) and thats £280, sentinels from auction site obvious for £20, no men, yes i will have issues with objectives but my mates into the idea of titan armies, 4 warhounds and two reavers with at least one set of the starter box little bits, should be fun when the output of models meets the money
I played epic when it was soace marine as a teenager so this is not a one hit army buy, but like 5 months maybe 6 months and it will be done, its so easy to paint, not amazingly well, but good enough
Considering these days I can print that whole army for under $30 in 8k resin.. The game is doomed in short order since I'll probably pick up the rules at a steep discount on ebay as resellers break it all up and that's that. I'm pretty much done with Games Workshop for the most part.. same thing with the Old World. Considering I grew up on Space Marine, Titan Legions and WFB which were my favorite games so they are really losing a long time hardcore fan good luck attracting new people 😂 It's not just the initial cost of the game or even the cost of an entire army it's the shit product cycle hamster wheel GW thinks they can hook you on to maximize their profits.. the GW shareholders can kick rocks and I'm rewarding their greed by giving them the barest of minimums to play their games at this point
Epic was always a game that struggled to find its audience, its historically always been hard to pull people away from the 28mm scale of 40K to get the big game experiance, players wanted the big game experiance with their warhammer models instead, which lead to apocalypse, whether you'd call that especially playable or not. Bringing back epic for the Horus Heresy setting is certainly a fantastic idea with loads of scope, and the gamer community is definately mature well... this should do well... EXCEPT, it really obviously seriously isnt! YOU JUST CANT CHARGE THIS DAMN MUCH FOR THIS SCALE! The box set might also notionally be "this much saving", but its certainly NOT a good box game! Original epic in 97 had 20 stands of troops and a dozen tanks for both sides plus a significant amount of terrain, with whats in the Legions Imperialis box, as the video said, its basically just one troops choice offering a very limited game and poor, not good, value out of buying the box! Compared to many other box games from other companies that offer massively better value and playing experiance. Games Workshop has to do a lot lot better than this, you can sense the turn off happening, there are plenty of other things to spend money on, lets see if they stick the landing with old world early next year.
Imagine supporting a company that seems to hate its players and actively make it hard for players to purchase the items they wants, not to mention the problems with scalpers and goes out of its way to stop you from filling Iin gaps of their range with 3D printed products. GW supporters really do have Stockholm syndrome and praise them for good models while every other aspect of their product and bsuiness is just goddamn awful. GW will never change while people support this. Don't forget, yes GW is making profits, but it's sales are down and this is from the support of whales. The people still around in the hobbey more than ever are about to carry the weight of those who are now playing OPR or have moved onto new systems and game styles altogether.
Read the article here spikeybits.com/2023/11/the-actual-cost-to-play-legions-imperialis-is-pretty-wild-3000-points.html
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Thanks for making this video.. everyone wants to talk about the lore, or building an army, or thousands of painting video.. but nobody talks about the big elaphant in the room... THE COST!!
You're certainly welcome, that is why I made it cause no one on GW's payroll will. :)
Personally I plan on buying a whole lot of bases then making lasrifles and artillery pieces out of RISK sets. I doubt the game is going to go competitive or I'll care too much
Where have you been? You can’t swing a dead cat around the Warhammer community without hitting someone who’s complaining about how expensive the hobby is.
It's a GW game. IT's going to be expensive. Nuff said. They're 2-3x pricier than any other brand/game on the market.
30 euros worth of resin if you got the tools
For a while I had my concerns about the price as my main detractor to investing into another tabletop game, however after watching the recent Legions Imperialis Battle Report on Warhammer+ a lot of my worries have been calmed for now. This is mainly because even at the 1000 point army list the players on the BR used the game looked really fun and quite the spectacle with all the infantry and tanks advancing and flanking on a decently decorated 3x3' board. I hope this game really takes off so we can get a full 40k Epic release in the future!
Idk what y’all are thinking. It’s GW. It’s gonna be pricey, because it’s well GW. I’m actually surprised the starter isn’t $300
Lol, this is pretty insane, I have been 3d printing epic 40k for nearly 4 years and now I can print legions imperialis, $40 for a bottle which could print out 5000 points
It cost me about 300-400$ for a basic resin printer set up. Assuming I'd need a full bottle of resin to print everything, I could buy my setup all over again, print out 2 legal armies and it would still probably cost several hundred dollars less than the cost of buying one army with the official models.
How can you print them? Where can i find stls for epic?
@@Burzuj89 Exactly, It cost me 300 and about 400 for 10 litres of resin. I have been able to print multiple armies for warhammer 40k, epic 40k, Warlord games and age of sigmar. saved around 5000-6000 dollars in all my 3d printing time for the cost of a single setup which hasn't failed me once and a boat load of Resin. Printing is the way
@@Burzuj89 it's about $100-130 usd for a basic resin printer here and about $25 usd for a liter of Resin.
another reason for a 3d printer - would be interesting to see in 5 yrs if this epic is the new standard and everyone just house rules form the book and prints their own orks and so on. I like that it fits on the smaller tables that GW wants people to cram knights on, as the scale makes so much more sense in practice.
That is already happening. It took about 2 seconds for people to start working up community rules for xenos, and that will evolve as has all of the very active Epic community builds have over the last 2 decades
Epic Armageddon has also been around for a bit, theres tons of awesome resources made by amazing artists that you can check out too!
800$-1000$? This is nuts!
It’s GW idk what you expect
I'm looking forward to it. Can't wait to actually get my box.
Im not too bothered about the price, my dad's hobbies are hunting and fishing, so that has adjusted what an expensive hobby is in my mind lol
The real question (currently unanswerable) is how good is the game - play-wise vs the cost to play. In decades of gaming, I've spent huge amounts of money on games minis, paint, terrain, and all sorts of other accessories - literally tens of thousands of dollars I'd guess. The wasted money is in the games I have not played, the ones I have not enjoyed. Is it expensive, yep, no doubt, but the question I need answered is is it good??????
Of course, GW is also a company that tends to run very expensive in everything. That also hurts the community a lot. They also do regional price divergence and the high barrier ordering complexity and that very much hurts the community.
So maybe the question calculation is: how good is the game + how expensive is the game + how much GW supports the community = ?????????
You can watch some gameplay on a few channels now if you aren’t trying to be surprised on release. But it looks pretty balanced and dynamic. An honest critique I have is Astartes aren’t as strong as they should be but regardless, it seems fun
It's basically an evolution of the old 2nd edition Epic; very close to it. So yeah, looks pretty good so far in terms of play, and we'll just have to see how it goes with balance and whatnot
Games Workshop executives are lighting up cigars with $100 dollar bills.
And they pay their customer facing employees, the ones that do the presentations and painting videos etc, subpar wages. It's nuts.
oh and they only smoke Havanas Cigars $300 a pop. They may have to raise the prices..
Great points. I think this gaming system will update and take off within the communities. I am hopeful as an apocalypse level gamer in the 40k era (big mistake GW) more players will see the over all cost value of this level of game play and jump on board. The cost is always the killer with GW.
Thanks for the review it was pretty informative. 👊🏼🤩
I hope so too!
Easy solution to price problem = 3d printer goes brrr
When Adeptus Titanicus released I went to a Warhammer Store that was local and the manager told me that he didn’t order any. He said that if I wanted one I should have pre-ordered it.
And preorder was sold out for a long time. I eventually found one on eBay several months after initial release. And then another. And then dozens of other boxes and supplements. I spent more on AT than I have on the last decade and a half of 40k.
I do hope folks 3D print the HELL out of this, just in general principle.
And then it will get zero support and dropped completely again.
Well done 👏
which would mean no 40k epic in the future
I don’t know about the game system, but I will be picking up the models to compliment the titans that I have.
I loved, loved, loved the original Space Marine (Epic) Game.
However I'm now retired and I'm still working on 40k and Horus Heresy armies (still no Jump Troops GW??? SERIOUSLY!) So there's NO WAY I'm starting a new scale now. Too bad. They look fun.
Great video and some very important points. I think GW have underestimated the Epic 3D printing community. They've been producing amazing STL support for years out of sheer love and bloody-minded defiance of GW's lack of interest in bringing back the Epic system. Now they want in, they've half-cocked themselves by setting it during the HH and no xenos planned whatsoever. They're late to their own party and the 3D printing community will lock the door. The upscaling seems very naive given how utterly simple it is to edit STL files. They're going to get their arses smacked and rightly so.
If they added Eldar and Orks, they could probably get more interest.
I get where you’re coming from however the setting for HH is perfect for this
I still have my old Epic set. If this was 40K I would have definitely grabbed it.
@@MrGunnar177Eldar and Orks were in the original space marine game that was also set in the Horus Heresy.
The original games started this way as well. If it sells well (i.e. the 3d printer crowd doesn't tank the game), the game likely could expand like happened back in the old AT and SM1st ed days. I have a large format, very nice 3d printer, and I use it more for terrain and alternate models (Lost Kingdom Miniatures Undying Dynasties/Tomb Kings alternatives, for example); but the caveat with 3d printing is the TIME; layouts, design tweaks, printing, cleanup, maintenance. It all eats up time, and the plastics are much faster, clean, and honestly if you factor in time for me are weirdly cheap enough to justify. Gives me back time to teach my 8 year old and actually play the game!
@@bradp6452 they were added later. Original AT was just HH era titans, and they added stuff via WD articles along the way. The first SM boxed set also was just HH era marines and Land Raiders and Rhinos. Xenos stuff really wasn't formalized in a relevant way until SM2nd edition; where they were done up brilliantly, with very distinct army desings and even odd organizational structures (Tyranid Hive War supplement was brilliant)
And, a thing to consider, especially for someone like me: Some people will have to be the primary source for a player group. So, if I want to play with my friends, I have to have BOTH armies to play, if not more. So, that could mean double or triple the price just to have competing forces that can be styled for different scenarios and keeping things interesting.
The starter box seems to be really good value in terms of what they've crammed in there, though the lack of terrain is a major drawback. But it's a pretty small portion (25-30%) of what you'd actually need to build a legal army. And compared to the alternatives, so 3d printing everything yourself or getting someone else to do it for you, the price of building an army with the GW minis is just exorbitant. At this point, I'm pretty set on just buying the book and printing the minis.
Solution: use the models to play minihammer. So much fun, as it gives you the depth of heroic scale with the scale of epic, and means that one box of astartes can make a demi company, or two opposing quarter companies. And of course as ever, 3d printer still goes brrrrt
3D printer goes BRRRRR!
Damn right. The scale change + the obscene pricing is a complete deal breaker.
for real, only decals need to be sourced...
@@zirrian decals for 8mm models? mate i dont think you need decals for somethign that small. at normal table distance a white dot is indistinguishable from a legion symbol on anythign smaller than a titan
@@KT-pv3klit is pretty visible on tanks and titans, which is as good as a reason as any to get decals.
I just bought a single box and based everything on single bases instead of squads... and you can just play normal hours heresy but small. Works on a 1x1 mini board and it's awesome
I am a little concerned about finding people to play with but I'm primarily a collector these days rather than a gamer so I'm still going to pick up an army.
a 3D Printer is less than 200€ on sale just saying...
One point on titanicus - nobody asked for it. Epic has several unofficial groups maintaining rules and a large 3d print community producing models, so there was always a demand. But they wanted 40k, not 30k. I have no idea why GW went this route and it almost guarantees a 40k version won't exist, because why would you buy 40k space marines when 30k space marines at 8mm already look correct enough?
Its a shame and my friend who played Tyranids years ago in 3rd edition saw it and said he would play when the tyranids were released... then was sad when I told him it was 30k only.
Actually, the answer is very simple. Many people (like me) hoped for regular 40k in epic scale so we can play regular 40k games on a small table with slightly changed rules. That would impact sales of 40k inventory in regular size. GW won't allow that.
@@equos5060 I suspect its more to do with non Imperial Factions barely selling enough to break even...
Everyone is always cynical. But these things usually come down to economics. There is a reason why Space Marines are always getting waaay more new things than all the other factions. Sales.
I already have a set on hold. It gives me nostalgia for my old board games Buck Rogers and Gammarauders. I bought it because it would make a great board game out of the box, and painting them will be super easy.
I like your video but I feel your comparison is a little off. The builds you choose to use as examples in your article on Epic are really nice but not fair to compare to your $800 cost of 40K. They should have been compared to the exact army build done in 40K. Me and my son have both bought a starter and swapped the factions. After spending $240 Canadian I am easily 1900 points give or take option changes. That’s basically 2/3 there. If I split another box I would be just shy of the mark for around $360 cdn. This total of course includes the war hounds in the box and based on my Solar Auxilia faction choice. I do believe that the Legiones Astartes has less points in what’s in the box but still way off the $800 mark for a 3000 point build. I admit my math is based on the basic choices but having three 40K armies I know that $800 would not buy you much if trying to match unit representation between games. I play a lot of Flames of War and honestly prefer the smaller scale option. I want to also throw in that epic is cheaper than Flames of War so I can live with the costs to play. I honestly hope it stays small so we can enjoy it, if it get big like 40K then we will have another GW game people just whine about lol. 3d printing crowd will love this as they get way more bang for the buck with smaller pieces to make. Game plays well, I can see my 40K sitting behind glass for a bit on this one. The 30k doesn’t bother me either but know I’m in a minority on that. My thought is we already have one version of 40K to play, that’s enough lol
Is it going to be snap kits or do we need to glue them like the older kits?
someone should comment how much it costs to 3d print vs buying the boxes for comparison. the book should of been a free pdf with the option to buy printed,
3D peinting oa rife, for the reasons you said, but also because the profit margins are so high as the official prices for the amount of plastic is very high compared to other games.
As for whether to get into the game I would advise everyone to see the interest in their local area. I am lucky that quite a few of my gaming buddies jave large armies and are really into it.
I do see a lot of people selling off their collections on ebay, so a few bargains can be had but supply is still low (driving up demand for 3D printed stuff where the quality has improved bu leaps and bounds compared to a few years ago).
The cost is undoubtedly high but folk always miss over the MOST important part of any game system. You don't need to buy it at once. You can buy it over a year.
The cost conversation also misses the cost of other games in the hobby sphere. If you want everything for Ravaged Star, that's $1000 and there isnt even a list system.
Did folks only buy an optionless 2000 point list for 40k/ AoS. No. You spend $2000 on your faction.
Cost is a conversation that folk need to be having over 6 months or a year.
Let's make it so expensive they have to buy it over an entire year, so milk them for every dollar. What a defense! I'm glad I got out of this mindset and stopped supporting these companies
Bang on. For me, I get hours of enjoyment from building and playing the games that the cost is pretty much insigificant to me, and I'm not even rich. Bang average wage in the UK, two kids to look after, a little side hustle playing in a band. I just buy less over a longer period of time - I don't just splash £1k at a time on full armies. I just slow grow. £30-60 a month, sometimes £100 a month. That's well within my affordability and I'm not going crazy.
I'm not interested in owning a 3D printer either. I don't have the room, nor the effort and time to learn about it. I know I COULD but I just don't care tbh. I like buying little add-on bits from Etsy stores but then it doesn't really become cheaper than buying from GW.
I like that the rules use blind orders and alternating activations, those alone make the game far more tactical than anything else GW makes. And I will definitely be 3D printing up a pile of tiny dudes. No telling if anybody else in the area will be into it though.
Yup, back to old school Epic 1st-2nd edition...
Its well priced, I've ordered a tonne 😃 (edit: in the UK through independant hobby shops anyway)
Enjoy it
I wanted/still want to get into Titanicus but haven't been able to find anyone to play. I was hopeful when LI came out and included some rules for the models from Titanicus that maybe I could just port them over.... but still haven't found others. But this point I'm basically waiting for my son to get old enough to play, or for my wife to get interested in trying. 😅
With any GW. The game will probably be fairly good. The problem mis the cost. If the troop units were way less. I think that would help push the game forward. But if we’re talking crazy, if the boxes retailed for 20% less over all. I think the cost slow down 3d sales and get more people into the game.
I'm a big HH fan, and i'm not getting into it. Between inflation and etc, big box games are no longer on the menu.
That was valuable insights, thanks Rob
Glad you liked it!
Had the same issue. Can't find anyone to play Titanicus. However this game is now sold out everywhere.
I will be picking up the rulebook and try out the game. But I will 3D print all the models.
1000$ for an army , in a country where avarge salary is 450$ , ended with the game being DoA here
Too late, I already got the starter set and then some. I liked what I saw, but the paper tokens kind of suck though.
Good video. Helpful.
Glad you think so!
You could buy the entire star wars legion republic and Separatist clone wars catalogue for under 800 bucks. That's two entire armies for less than one gw 40k army (using discounts), but people are gw fan boys
Hell, a battletech army is 25 bucks max. Just buy a lance and you are ready to play
I think i bought like 4 of every rebel squad etc. and I was still under the costs for this.
I see your point but they are different games designed to do different things. It's cool that we have a varied choice of games and systems these days.
@markgrehan3726 it is nice to have variety but it's a shame GW uses their popularity to enforce incredibly high prices. Is what it is tho
@@iain-duncan G.W is expensive and I honestly don't know how kids get into the hobby now but then so is a lot of other things triple A video games for example but to be fair to them they are the only gaming company that runs stores (As small as some of them are becoming) and still produce a magazine. This maybe their way of getting that popularity but in this day and age of the Internet I don't think they can enforce anything.
One thing is sure. Rulebooks are going to be selling pretty good😊
And for the actual models? Well, small, well detailed models is literally what resin printers are good for, right?😂
Good point!
If you have a strong gaming community, it’s not that bad my store is selling the box for 170. I am splitting the box, usually in my group some will buy a box and sell the models they don’t need.
GW's pricing is ridiculous in my opinion!!!! I left GW about 5yrs ago due to their pricing after playing since 1986. I have passed on anything else after Custodes. I have gone back to other games I played in the 80's like Battletech and I play a lot of Warlords historical's.
The starter is US$166 on amazon right now
I was hoping this was going to be the cheaper alternative to 40k. I love the scale down size actually makes owning an army look really impressive. I'm so disappointed at the 3k point cost.
The beauty of the tiny scale is that you can apply 40k rules to the tiny models and have "epic" battles. You might not have the expanded list of weapon options, but you can convert models to suit
I already play Titanicus, and I hope that this game is not dead to GW now.
Now that we know the prices I find the infantry isn't priced too crazy. What seems extra insane to me is the tanks. Why in the world would I pay $50 for two pieces of plastic smaller than my thumb? From a materials standpoint it doesn't make sense, from a points value it doesn't make sense, they aren't even immensely detailed or anything special at all. Why the high price? I'd be questioning at $25-30 for two tanks, but $50?! Totally insane, especially when you consider the fact that two warhounds are close to the same price.
Great video! I like the game.🎉
I'm glad you like it
Where canyou guy find 3d files?
3d printing makes more bang for buck, plus Xenos lol
Buy 2 boxes. £200. There you go. Minus £50 for selling the spare rulebook and bits.
My regret with GW, i arrived in store at the end of EA, 96 and 97. After secondary school. next to zero disposable income. I was able to grab some of the end of line infantry boxes. I have X boxes in archive. they will Not be touched, near close to MIB and never for sale. I have enough OOB to make a few squads.
LI is where I really desire to build paint and play. Coming in at open with rumours and hearsay that LI will incorporate as strong as HH has, as long as HH does, fills me with much desire.
Admittedly, I feel like my army will end up looking far more like it could easily adapt to 40K setting, many primary tanks and quadruple that in infantry. Considering it looks like most boxes will be a days wages or less, I'm more than happy to just trickle boxes into my pile of not-right-now-but-real-soon every week.
I dont think i'll be assessing how much i spend, but i will be trying to float a serious army, if not a chapters worth eventually. - smolbois are my weakness -
Man I already print epic 30k. But I am curious about their rules. I'm still up in the air about getting the rule book or starter set. I've seen photos if some of the space marine minis with a significant amount of extra plastic to support the tiny detail but my printer already gives me better quality minis for a fraction of the cost
I'm probably going to buy the book and print the minis. Based on what I've seen of battle reports, rules discussions, etc, the rules look to be pretty fun and dynamic. I've been hankering for something like this for awhile. But the price to play with the official models is just too high.
I wonder what this will do to the second hand market for epic models, proxy them into the game? I should check prices for them. Dies look nice though.
Epic is unfortunately the wrong scale.
@@spikeybitstv The right scale i would say...
Basing the pricing off points is not a good idea. It should be based off the ratio of plastic/resin required for a full sized Horus heresy compared to plastic/resin for Imperialis. The models do look cool though. What are the rules like, using standard Horus Heresy rules?
The rules are very similar to one of the old editions of epic. The rules looks very good but i need to try them.
I was able to get a starter box at 170 not bad for what’s going n the box
Oh for sure!
so many ppl on the FB groups have fully printed armys, ive orderd 2 boxes as already got Aironautica and titanicus so im set lol
dam that is expensive.
so a Legion army cost the same or more then a 40k army :(
Yeah from the looks of it...
Getting into 3d printing from nothing is cheaper than buying a single army
Depends on the printer my Saturn 2 and curing/washing station was about 700 with resin $800
@MrGunnar177 to be fair saturn 2 are now only 600msrp not 800 and are even currently on sale from elagoo for 319 so not like it has to be that expensive. also I would argue for epic scale all you need is a mars which is cheaper anyway any way at around 300-400msrp, currently on sale for under the 200 fyi.
One Word. 17 Syllables....
3D Printer
Great video, always appreciate your cost analysis. All the content creator videos are nice, but let’s face it, they all get the game for free. That’s not the case for the rest of us. Passing on this one, but will keep an eye on Mantics Warpath epic game coming to KS 1st Q of 2024.
Great point!
It's really the opposite of Catalyst's Battletech approach. As much as i am an old school Epic fan, i think i will pass on this one. Battletech Alpha Strike is so much less of a $$ sink and it's tremendously fun to play, especially with infantry, tanks, helicopters, aerospace, etc. Plus they don't care whether you 3d print as their force boxes are reasonably priced, so most people buy lots of them.
yeah, I totally went to a lot of cheaper games. I find it interesting to just see their models but I am done with GW.
Damn that is so expensive!!! for models that size it should be like £200-£300 max for an army. There are many more companies doing great games at realistic prices. Lets face it the cost will kill this completely damn starter set for 12mm historical for American Civil war contains over 2000+ minis in a box for £120 inc scenery, making 223 models for GW a joke
Mantic and Warcradle will both be releasing their own epic scale games with hard plastic miniatures early next year that will certainly be much better priced and almost certainly much better rulesets. So... pass on this.
Well, Mantic is running a kickstarter and Warcradle's entry is both not Space Opera Sci-Fi and kinda ambiguous in when exactly it will release..... Those might hit stores later, but they'll probably be better!
Mantic is going the 3D print model. Now THAT is something I’m interested in.
Mantic models sadly look pretty poor. Dropzone commander minis could be used but the aesthetic is kinda lacking
Literally loading up a build plate of tiny bois as i listen to this 😅
Printer goes BRRRRRRRR
Seriously f.. gw, there are way cooler minis on etsy for a faction of the gw prize.
You will have to have a spare arm and a leg which is a shame for such a small scale format.
The real question is, how much will it cost to make a full chapter? 10 full companies. Way, way too much.
Certainly far more than it cost me to put together a company in Epic 40k 25+ years ago. Even factoring in inflation.
3d printer goes brrrr
I'm still excited for the game itself, but yeah,... yikes. I may have to limit myself to the books.
800-1000$ for a full army? Yeah, I can't justify that. I may give the rules a try, but if I do, 3d printed will be the way I go.
You can get a good army for about $600 (or cheaper if you can find someone to swap starter set models with).
Looking forward to see the rules tbh, not too interested in the models as I already got a lot of old epic, forumware and 3d printed stuff.
"One of your distributors wants to talk to you" - this is GW, literally the biggest. This is not ONE of, this is THE distributor of games.
Secondly, it's actually great that GW does that - maintaining relationships with their stores is super important, it allows them to collect feedback and get a feel for the community and general market, outside of their stores.
Hey I feel you but talk to 10 store owners, then come back here with what they told you about this new ordering system lol. I'm not making this up I'm in the trenches talking to distros and stores alike all day every day.
GW is not the biggest, they are maybe top 3 depending on a stores product mix. So
Yeah I get that, but I think the ordering system is separate from GW reaching out to stay connected (which was my point). They can absolutely do both. As in, allow stores to order online, and also connect with them individually.@@spikeybitstv
I feel that. Thank you.
Tbh, the fact that it's 30k is a no go for me. Just imperial forces is boring
I just got a 3d printer today so I can play this
£280 for 3k points, based on new book legitimising super heavy tank companies, so you baneblade out at x2 4 banes and a 2 baneblade hq, 4 knights, 16 russ, x2 8 sentinels, 2 hellhammer, 4 marauder bombers 3120, so dump something (im not decided on that yet but my wasted Saturday night brain could be messing me) and thats £280, sentinels from auction site obvious for £20, no men, yes i will have issues with objectives but my mates into the idea of titan armies, 4 warhounds and two reavers with at least one set of the starter box little bits, should be fun when the output of models meets the money
I played epic when it was soace marine as a teenager so this is not a one hit army buy, but like 5 months maybe 6 months and it will be done, its so easy to paint, not amazingly well, but good enough
Will check out rules, but epic armageddon is already the tits, and the community made it better then GW ever could
Legion's Imperialism!
Also you can find places with discounts. I’m getting the starter rhinos kratos and infantry for $278 shipped lol
Considering these days I can print that whole army for under $30 in 8k resin.. The game is doomed in short order since I'll probably pick up the rules at a steep discount on ebay as resellers break it all up and that's that. I'm pretty much done with Games Workshop for the most part.. same thing with the Old World. Considering I grew up on Space Marine, Titan Legions and WFB which were my favorite games so they are really losing a long time hardcore fan good luck attracting new people 😂 It's not just the initial cost of the game or even the cost of an entire army it's the shit product cycle hamster wheel GW thinks they can hook you on to maximize their profits.. the GW shareholders can kick rocks and I'm rewarding their greed by giving them the barest of minimums to play their games at this point
so, the starter box goes for $200 for $5 dollars worth of plastic..and a book nobody wants... PASS
Nothing really ... I will print all my missing minies
i lked the content but the music is too loud and too dramatic. liked and subscribed regardless.
i feel you. this was a fast edit so my apologies
I lost all interest when they pulled the Kratos tanks out, just screams shrink-flation cash grab
they didn’t, it was a mistake that it was included in that one picture at all. they were not present in any other before this
Epic was always a game that struggled to find its audience, its historically always been hard to pull people away from the 28mm scale of 40K to get the big game experiance, players wanted the big game experiance with their warhammer models instead, which lead to apocalypse, whether you'd call that especially playable or not. Bringing back epic for the Horus Heresy setting is certainly a fantastic idea with loads of scope, and the gamer community is definately mature well... this should do well... EXCEPT, it really obviously seriously isnt! YOU JUST CANT CHARGE THIS DAMN MUCH FOR THIS SCALE! The box set might also notionally be "this much saving", but its certainly NOT a good box game! Original epic in 97 had 20 stands of troops and a dozen tanks for both sides plus a significant amount of terrain, with whats in the Legions Imperialis box, as the video said, its basically just one troops choice offering a very limited game and poor, not good, value out of buying the box! Compared to many other box games from other companies that offer massively better value and playing experiance. Games Workshop has to do a lot lot better than this, you can sense the turn off happening, there are plenty of other things to spend money on, lets see if they stick the landing with old world early next year.
Imagine supporting a company that seems to hate its players and actively make it hard for players to purchase the items they wants, not to mention the problems with scalpers and goes out of its way to stop you from filling Iin gaps of their range with 3D printed products.
GW supporters really do have Stockholm syndrome and praise them for good models while every other aspect of their product and bsuiness is just goddamn awful.
GW will never change while people support this.
Don't forget, yes GW is making profits, but it's sales are down and this is from the support of whales. The people still around in the hobbey more than ever are about to carry the weight of those who are now playing OPR or have moved onto new systems and game styles altogether.
*cough*Etsy*cough*
Do you like the game? Spend for it, you dont like it? Pass, videos made only to ruin others experience are totally useless
3d print
GAMES WORKSHOP SUCKS
Whew, good thing my titans alone make 14k points....🥲