Rock and Sand Part II
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 ก.ค. 2024
- In this special two part series, Kevin Allen (Host of Ancient Faith Today) sits down with Father Josiah Trenham, author of the new book Rock and Sand; An Orthodox Appraisal of the Protestant Reformation and Their Teachings.
This book has been written for three purposes. First, to provide the Orthodox reader with a competent overview of the history of Protestantism and its major traditions, from its beginnings in the 16th century to the present day. This overview relies heavily upon the Reformer s own words as well as the creeds of various Protestant faiths, in order to avoid misrepresentation and caricature. Second, to acquaint Orthodox and non-Orthodox readers with a narrative of the historical relations between the Orthodox East and the Protestant West. Finally, to provide a summary of Ortho- dox theological opinion on the tenets of Protestantism.
ARCHPRIEST JOSIAH TRENHAM was ordained to the Holy Priesthood in 1993, and was awarded the Ph.D. in Theology from the University of Durham, England, in 2004.
Fr. Josiah serves as an instructor in and on the Board of Advisors of the Ss. Cyril and Athanasius Orthodox Institute in San Francisco. He is an adjunct professor of theology at St. Katherine College in Encinitas, Ca. (2010-present), and was an Adjunct Professor of History at California Baptist University (2003-2010). He is a member of the Orthodox Theological Society of America, and participates in yearly academic forums and symposia. Since 2004 he has served on the Mayoral Environmental Committee (GAP) of the City of Riverside. Fr. Josiah has also served as a member of the Secretariat of the Assembly of Orthodox Bishops in the United States since its inception in May, 2010.
Fr. Josiah s books and articles have been published by St. Herman Press, Zoe Press, St. Vladimir s Orthodox Theological Journal, Logos: A Journal of Eastern Christian Studies, The Journal of the Institute on Religion and Democracy, CIVA: The Journal of Christians in the Visual Arts, Divine Ascent, The Word Magazine, OrthodoxyToday.org, American Orthodox Institute, Sourozh, Pemptousia.com (Vatopaidi Monastery), Eastern Churches Review, and elsewhere.
To purchase Rock and Sand you can visit store.ancientfaith.com/rock-an...
Listen to the audiobook version of Rock and Sand (read by the author Fr. Josiah Trenham) here:
patristicnectar.org/store_aud...
For more information on Patristic Nectar Publications visit our website at www.patristicnectar.org
For Part I of this interview, follow the link below:
• Rock and Sand : Part I
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Hey guys, if you could, please, tell Father Josiah Trenham, that I was going to completely walk away from God and Christ as a whole because of how screwed up, illogical, and inconsistent the Protestant/Evangelical System is. However, I discovered these interviews, and several others with Father Josiah, and a few others, and it brought me back from a very deep and dark cliff that I was standing at the ledge of with one foot over the edge, and ready to drop.
I would suggest that you write to Father Josaiah. I can almost be 100% sure that, he would love to hear it from you. He is an amazing priest and kind man.
@@Kyriakyriaki-onlyaservant thanks. I will tonight.
Yes. Write to him. I have taken a long spiritual journey to Orthodoxy and wish I could thank people God placed in my life to lead me along.
I had given up on Church's. So not in the same boat with you... but I was in the life raft next to you.
Same here. This man is so full of grace
We need more Orthodox Churches in the UK, there are a lot of people fed up with compromised churches and entertainment churches.
Many of us Americans are also disgusted with mainline corrupted Protestant Churches and lukewarm Catholocism. We have many people over here who would and are running to Orthodoxy.
@Bot are you Blammit? Redhill, Surrey. There are no Orthodox Churches near me so I go to other churches and listen to Ancient Faith radio/podcasts.
you guys have entertainment churches in the UK?
@@areyoutheregoditsmedave Not as bad as in the U.S but we have Hillsong and that kind of thing.
It depends on how far you are willing to travel there is a Greek church of st George in Kingston upon Thames, there is also St Andrew in Winsor, the Prophet Elias in Reading, St Nicholas Gilford and Holy Trinity Gilford. That is just as of now, there are new missions and parishes opening all the time. You may have to travel for the time but if a group of Orthodox develops in an area it is possible to set up a new mission. Most in the Surry area are under the Greek Church but there are also some under the Romanian jurisdiction. The best way to get one close to you is to join an existing parish at a distance and then invite others and build the nucleus needed to found a new community (it helps to find at least one candidate for ordination in this process as the ORthodox Church in the UK is short of clergy at all levels).
Visited my first Orthodox Church this weekend. 😍 I’m in love.
Welcome! 😁
@@reamus9102 perhaps you mean "welcome home"
Welcome!! ❤️❤️❤️
In love with what, specifically ?
@@jtplumbing6592I would wager the real Christ?
As a long-lapsed Presbyterian and descendant of Jonathan Edwards-and recently accepted into the Orthodox Church, Glory to God-I am profoundly grateful for these videos and the book. Eye opening and life changing!
The Orthodox priest never understood of the Dogma on Immaculate Conception
This Minister has difficulty of understanding of Filioque which could be defended logically.They insist on double procession as false but Christ said I and the Father are One So they have difficulty of the Filioque thing they keep on insisting on that a Creed needs a council to consider it is accepted .But they forget that St.Peter ' s authority does not come from them but from Lord Jesus . The Roman Bishop is the apostles of Peter now this Minister consider the lesser authority is over the Pope which is a mediocre and un acceptable doctrine he is still a fool and Bobo theologically .
@@ronaldignacio3574 logic or Tradition. Which do you pick?
On my maternal side I'm descended from a younger brother of Martin Luther and a plethora of Massachusetts Bay Colony Puritans. My dad was a Jew. And yet even I wound up in the Orthodox fold at the tender age of 65. I'll be 74 in a few days.
@@ronaldignacio3574 I don't listen to anyone foolish enough to wear a mask!
Loved the emphasis at the end for people TO READ THEIR BIBLES. ❤
IAM CONVERTING TO ORTHODOXY. FROM THE CATHOLIC CHURCH OF ROME. IAM 75 yrs. AND THE HOLY SPIRIT THROUGH YEARS OF PRAYER AND STUDY HAVE BROUGHT ME OUT OF A MISGUIDED STATE OF HERESY.
I LOVE MY NEW LIFE WITH THE JESUS AND THE TEACHINGS OF ORTHODOXY.
THANK YOU FATHER JOSIAH TRENHAM. DR. GMAXV
I had given up on churches. I never felt like picking a church should be picking the lesser of two evils. I've looked at different branches of Christianity but each had a flaw. My son sent me to this video. He just recently found the Orthodox Church. He was looking for answers and he said this is where God sent him. He's hoping that by Christmas he will be baptized in the Orthodox faith. Thank you and God Bless.
How is your son doing?
Great interview! Man i hsve never seen an interviewer that asked such great questions and an interviewee answer them so clearly.. Awesome job!
Agreed. In that way alone even, it is truly impressive!
I wish I had this 10 years ago when I withdrew from the Baptist and evangelical church in favor of Orthodoxy... even now, it is a good reminder of what I rejected, and why.
Do you go to an Orthodox church in Connecticut?
Why? Specially why do you wish that?
I am a reformed protestant have been reformed since 1991… And a Christian since 1980… I have been involved in polemics and apologetics since my conversion and I am slowly but steadily moving forward in understanding the Orthodox faith. I have the book “rock and sand” and I just found these interviews on TH-cam. I will continue to move forward. thank you for a job well done.
Much blessings to you, Charles!
Come home brother, the Church welcomes you with open arms :)
@@Blueray93Romania Just don't bring the Protestant Church with you.
Where are you at these days?
I know you commented this 3 years ago, but I hope you moved forward using scripture in your understanding of orthodox rather than the opinions of this man given in the interview. The interviewer did not structure one single question based on scripture. So tread lightly, this whole interview was geared to make every response lean towards the meaning of the church(orthodox priesthood) has authority over man, same as the Catholics, not Christ. Why do you think the reformers broke away? Does Christ and His Word have authority over all things? Does Christ not have the keys to death and hell? Did Christ not prove His authority about salvation with who puts their faith in Him with the thief on the cross next to Him? Why are people so scared to question the authority of the orthodox and Catholics on these scriptures?
what an absolutely phenomenal 2-part video series. It was a blessing to me. Father Trenham certainly knows his church history! He is also an extremely lucid speaker, and an inspiration to Christians.
Truly it is so. I agree with your adjectives and description of this content and FrTrenham.
"The Protestants are still searching for some authority because they've realised each individual wiht a bible isn't enough" Bang on. I was looking into christian theology because muslims online would rip and tear my protestant theology to shreds. And my theology became more orthodox as i philosophized. But there was no authority i could commit to and i kept falling into heresy. Which is why I looked to catholicism but the contradictions there led me here all the while i was praying. Praise be to God. I am sure that as more of the younger generation are looking into church history they will come to orthodoxy. Perhaps the recent publicisation of islam and paganism isn't so bad at all if it forces our brethren to look and try to understand.
😅😅😅 Muslims can't touch a evangelical that knows their bible 😂. And they believe in penal substitution. They just don't know it cause they are so inconsistent 😅😅. Like Roman catholicism.andnthe icon venerators. Full of gnosticism
Alter calls without alters, great point. I’m an evangelical worship director and that’s something I’ve been realizing- the irony when I lead a song called “O Come to the Alter.” Thanks for these interviews.
God bless you
☦
So thankful for Fr. Trenham and Patristic Nectar.
This is a wonderful interview & book. As a twice PCA Ref. Elder & 34+yrs Reformed, now Orthodox...I sincerely pray my protestant friends, relatives and others will have the courage to slowly & carefully digest this book. It is rich and potentially enlightening to those with the integrity to open their hearts and read. Not only does Fr Josiah show several very pointed moral problems with the leading Reformers themselves...but also at several point demonstrates that the Reformers repeatedly refused to read their Bibles and follow the clear teaching of Scripture...historically preserved by the Orthodox Church. Lord have mercy. Holy Spirit have mercy on the Protestant & Reformed world.
That's very strange, So You've come to believe the church and its priesthood has authority over all mankind and their salvation?
Father Josiah Trenham Just wow thank you I am becoming Orthodox going to my first Orthodox Church this week
Thank you Father Josiah for the insightful interview and all the amazing information you presented, and to you brother Kevin for being an excellent interviewer. I thoroughly enjoyed both parts. May God bless your service and use you for the glory of his name.
I can’t wait to read this book as a lifelong Protestant who is seeking!
Brother, do read the book and visit an Orthodox Church. Look around and then attend a Divine Liturgy. Seek and ye shall find. I did. Glory to God!
We're there, too. Be patient and humble before the Lord. He WILL bring answers.
This is a great interview. God bless you for posting it. I am leaving RCC for EO and trying to learn as much as I can. I'm sorry to learn Kevin Allen has died. May he Rest In Peace.
35:30 Reformation in England
43:15 The Anabaptists
45:04 The Methodists
48:01 Jonathan Edwards
48:45 Charles Finney
54:24 John Macarthur
Great interview (and the book is great , too, I highly recommend that everyone , Orthodox and Protestant read it as a basis for honest dialogue on what divides us) , but I think a point made around the 47:09 - 47:45 about the Roman Catholics in America becoming too assimilated into the American culture , losing their uniquely Catholic Christian identity , sadly applies to many Orthodox Christians who are very worldly in their day to day lives. They attend the Orthodox liturgies weekly, but there seems to be very little connection between the Orthodox theology expressed in the Divine Liturgy and their day to day lives , which are largely secular. (I write this as an Orthodox Christian, not as a Protestant critic of Orthodoxy) We Orthodox in America, with some notable exceptions, have not done a good job of communicating our faith to our culture or to keeping our children continuing in the Faith.
MrBongers
Well, the important difference is that this failure isn’t built into some awful liturgical deform, as Novis Ordo’s “Liturgical Time Bombs” were. Local failures, however popular, are still a LOT easier to fix from the bottom up then top down.
As a non-denominational church gower these interviews have been really eye opening especially with apostolic succession and how my church and other churches aren't really structured biblically. I've been drawn to Orthodoxy as of late and these two interviews have really enforced my confidence to convert to the Orthodox Church. I have definitely experienced some heretical teachings and witnessed demonic happenings which saddens my heart, and I don't think my local church would last another three hundred years. Thank you Patristic Nectar for this exquisitely profound interview.
If there's any video to show somebody interested in orthodoxy, this is it!
Not really, not a single question by the interviewer was based on scripture and every response was given specifically geared towards that the Orthodox Church and its priesthood have authority over all mankind and their salvation. Just like the Catholics do. Why do you think reformers broke away from them? Does Christ and His word not have authority over all things? Does Christ not have the keys to death and hell? Did Christ not prove His authority over salvation about who puts their faith in Him with the thief on the cross? I could keep going, but I think you get the point.
@@jtplumbing6592Every denomination is "based on Scripture," and all come to wildly different conclusions. Huh. It's almost as if the living Tradition of Christ's Church gave us these Scriptures in the first place, and is capable of discerning its contents better than you. The Bible is not an intellectual textbook for you to proof-text your preconceived notions about what Christianity is; it's a holy canon of great mystical depth and meaning that doesn't appeal to the intellect. But yeah, your personal interpretation is obviously more definitive than what Christ taught, the disciples preached, and the fathers taught.
Oh, by the way, "The house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth" (1 Timothy 3:15), "That He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish" (Ephesians 5:27), and "I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it" (Matthew 16:18).
@@jtplumbing6592Also, stop lying. You're deliberately misinterpreting and reframing Father Josiah's words with the lens of your anti-Church hardness of heart. The Church is in visible, organic union with Christ. You reject the Church and "faith which was once for all delivered to the saints" (Jude 1:3) on Pentecost, you reject Him also.
I thought I was 100% on board with conversion, 110/10% on my way to the true body of Christ. Lord have mercy. Thank you.
God bless you, Matthew!
These two interviews are excellent. What a wealth of knowledge! Well done gentlemen! Thank you for these!
For an Old Man I recomand this Interview to everyone to watch Proud to be ORTHODOX
Proud?
Humility my brother, Humility.
I seriously want to thank you for these videos. I was baptized under the Greek Orthodox Faith as a baby, and it wasn't until fairly recently that I fully appreciated it. My experience in Christianity has lead me to renounce my faith, attend different church denomination and now back home where I started. The difference this time is how priests like yourself present the Bible very academically. It fills all the gaps of the lingering questions I had in my heart about how we should worship Christ. Had I had the style of your teaching years ago I would have never left my faith by baptism.
This father, is a gift to us Orthodox. Jonathan Pageu and his brother Mateu, who has a book, are also worth looking into.
@@latinboyyy305 Thanks for the reply. Over the past few months me and my wife have been attending an OCA we have found near us. My wife isn't Greek, so hearing the divine liturgies in English helps her. I have also read a few more books and found a few more channels here on TH-cam and Jonathan's is one.
So you've come to believe the Orthodox Church and its priesthood has authority over all mankind and their salvation?
@@jtplumbing6592 not the priesthood, The Holy Spirit.
@@jtplumbing6592the priest in this interview said it’s very much not that. What’s your problem? Do you often build strawmen in direct contradiction to your opponent actual views?
Very encouraging words at the end from father Josiah!! People do need to know about Orthodoxy, especially in these difficult times that we are living in. Glory to God ❤️❤️❤️
I grew up oneness Pentecostal, left that for obvious reasons and was evangelical/Calvinist Protestant for 20 years and now I'm converting to Orthodoxy. I didn't chose to leave Protestantism over any ill will or anything like that, in fact, I made many friends and most were very devout. I left because I wanted to experience and know the fullness of the church. I found that in the Holy Orthodox Church ☦️
So you've come to believe that the Orthodox Church and its priesthood has authority over all mankind and their salvation?
@@jtplumbing6592 Where did I say that or any Orthodox believer or church document says that?
@andys3035 this person is on a quixotic crusade all over the comment section. Don't indulge them.
@@jtplumbing6592Ah, I didn't realize you had been on such a quixotic crusade, quoting the comment above. Being a hater of truth is quite the strenuous effort. Beyond this, I will not be further indulging your months-old comments either, especially for being comments written in such bad faith.
I currently have been attending Greek Orthodox services after leaving Oneness Pentecostalism (apostolics). I have learned you will be shunned.
Beautiful interview! I loved how they ended this interview. On a very humble note! :-)
Kevin must have been told a few times that he looks like Billy Joel. Thank you for these very useful videos and I will start to attend an orthodox church in Montreal QC to discover what seems to be the authentic fullness of our faith.
Wow, yes i thought he looked familiar ,yep, BJ for sure.
This is accurate. Though I called myself and was taught that I was trinitarian, I discovered after leaving evangelicalism , that I was infact a modalist.
I was never taught anything in 20 years really.
This is an excellent interview, very enlightening. Thank you for making it available on TH-cam.
Thank you
became a catechumen a few months ago and visited a monastery for the first time last week. Orthodoxy is the way. it is how God intended us to live.
These are great!
These two discussions were amazing and have helped me solidify why I am walking away from the Protestant world.
I’ve been watching your videos almost non stop and have decided to convert to Orthodox from Evangelical. I live in central Florida and if anyone reading this could recommend an Orthodox Church. With gratitude.
Check out holy trinity Greek Orthodox church! There is a LOT of converts there from evangelical backgrounds
What an amazing interview.i see why people spoke so highly of Kevin.
This is music to my Heart and missing from serious protestant study For Sure!!
Excellent series, loved it. God bless you.
Wow, what you said at around the 23 minute mark has helped me abundantly.
Thank you 🙏🏻 thank you 🙏🏻 thank you!! Needed this!!
Very insightful, thanks.
God bless you Father Josiah.
Quality work.
This is a wonderful series of interviews! I have the book which is highly recommended and just decided to listen to this series for the 2nd or 3rd time over a period of a couple of years. I joined the Orthodox Church and came from an evangelical background and have never been happier. Contrary to what someone posted the Orthodox Church is evangelistic, or should be. It is like reading scripture or any other endeavor. Members are called to be evangelistic and read their bibles regularly. Perhaps more emphasis by leadership is necessary but the members are called to do so.
I don't want to be presumptuous, but I just heard from Fr Heers (Orthodox Ethos) whilst he was presenting the Elder Athanasius' book on Revelation of St John that when we follow the teaching of daily crucifixion, Jesus said if He be lifted up He would draw all men unto Him, and in the same way when we are lifted up on that cross daily, it is a beacon to all men who are then drawn to Christ. Sorry if this is unclear, but I thought how organically the Orthodox Church evangelizes just by being the Church, the extension of Christ.
Converting to Orthodoxy at this time. Journey has been beyond painful.
Why painful? Do you mind explaining?
Great book and videos 🙂
I bought the book and have read most of it. I was surprised that there is no mention of the Ancestral Sin which is quite different than the Augustinian view of original sin. This is a big subject and it is very important in understanding the difference in Orthodoxy since it helps to understand the the radically different view of the atonement of Christ. There was also no meaningful discussion of the doctrine of Penal Substitutionary Atonement which is not held by the Orthodox Church. I was a Protestant for over fifty years and am considering my own conversion to the Orthodox Church. I wish the book had gone more into these subjects. I wonder why this is not discussed in this interview.
Father Ioannis Romanidis does this in great detail in his book "The Ancestral Sin".
@@eptanyosisevastyan170 I read that book. I'm not that impressed with Romanidis. He has a guru status with some Orthodox but I don't think he communicates the subject matter well.
@@randychurchill201 His opinion is actually the way the Holy Fathers saw this subject, and their view was influenced by the fact that they were bearers of grace. But of course, maybe you see things differently.
@@eptanyosisevastyan170 it might just be a hard translation to understand. I know i have that problem a lot with writings.
Ancestral sin is instrumental to the immaculate conception, which is a RC dogma. It might be in his book on Roman Catholicism.
Father Josiah makes a good point near the end about the seeming lack of Orthodox public and missionary work. I can only speak of my experience from within America but I believe it is simply a lack of knowledge or exposure to Orthodoxy that has hampered it. I sure would have appreciated if Orthodoxy had a greater public presence earlier in my life, perhaps I would not have spent so much time lost.
thanks fantastic
Great interviews evidencing how institutions come first in the thinking of ‘Christianity after Christianity’ as now Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant.
Would love to hear the speakers thoughts on the division/schism between Oriental Orthodoxy and the Church, but understand that’s in focus for his book.
The best
This is very informative, I like how he presents the weaknesses going thru history.
He clearly sees the errors of Fulton and the Catholics they watered down their message.
One of the most frustrating things that I find with orthodoxy is that it fails to push the spread of the gospel.
There was a nice Orthodox Church down the street that I visited. It was nice.
I visited several times it is now a shrine to Indian gods. Why did this happen? So now the faithful are without a “bishop” or have to travel to another city to see a bishop.
Paul and the apostles took the gospel and churches to people I do not see orthodox doing this.
I listen to orthodoxy with such reservations because of the above.
This was an educational interview (both parts). I grew up Lutheran but as an adult I left that church because I started studying my Bible and realized that the Lutheran tradition was still too catholic and added too much man-made tradition to Scripture.
In recent years I have been learning more about the Hebrew language and culture of the Bible, and I'm realizing that if we are in Christ then we are Abraham's children and grafted into the olive tree of Israel. God divorced Israel for their idolatry, but through the death of Christ we all, both Jew and Gentile, can be remarried, which is what the marriage supper of the Lamb is all about. The new Jerusalem has twelve gates for the twelve tribes of Israel. If we are children of our heavenly Father then we are Israel, His people.
Jesus didn't start a new religion called Christianity, He made a new covenant with Israel, and in Him we are joined to the Hebrew people, His assembly. This is what the Church is. Those who keep the commandments of God (Torah) and have the testimony of Christ (the Gospel). Read the Bible for yourself and it's all in there.
I would suggest you read the book The Religion of the Apostles by Simon De Young, he addresses many of your objections and sets the bible within the context in which the bible was written.
Please make a Kindle edition available on Amazon.
right now there's an Audible version. Free trial gets it free.
Like this format. Issue is still the idea that we believers are not now Israel... Paul is constantly telling us we are grafted in the those who reject Messiah are cut off... In Rev 17 Jesus calls them "so called Jews.." showing true Jews (anyone grafted in by faith in Jesus) is the right way to view who we are. It eliminates ALL tradition including Orthodox. We are one church, the church at Mt. Sinai. Jesus is king of a constitutional monarchy and his constitution is the torah. Saved by grace as was Abraham through the last saint will be. We should keep his Torah out of law not as some sort of obligation or holiness buff.
As a non-Orthodox Christian I appreciate the faith of the Orthodox church and am studying and learning. However, Fr. Josiah did hit upon some things towards the end that has bothered me about the Orthodox Church. The lack of personal Scripture reading and knowledge for many individual Orthodox Christians. The church I'm currently associated with has gone into traditionally Orthodox countries in Eastern Europe and found that to be true. Also the lack of evangelism and missions, education and hospitals in the Orthodox church and how the Protestants are literally running circles around the church in these areas.
As a Protestant Evangelical who has found great beauty and truth in Orthodox teaching, this is the very think that makes me go, "Hmmm, if you have the truth faith and church, I'd think you'd be shouting it from the rooftops and doing everything possible to bring that truth to those who don't know it by way of charitable acts (hospitals, homeless centers, etc), education and missions. Shouldn't you who have the true faith be leading the way? After all, our Lord did say to go into all the world."
Rather, if I may give a charitable but honest view from the outside, the Orthodox church can seem very xenophobic and separated into ethnic enclaves to the point that some churches don't even have services in English in the USA which screams, "Stay out!!! You're not welcome here!" to any inquirer.
I'm grateful for all that I'm learning from studying the EO Church and I'd love to see it be a greater blessing to the USA and the West.
Absolutely agree.
As a black man in America I've heard some interesting things from other minorities about visiting EO churches. I really enjoy listening and leadin learning but I'm reluctant to visit exactly because of this issue of gatekeeping
Could you move your videos to Rumble? I’m trying to get away from this tyrannical platform.
Thank you
I strongly support your suggestion. Btw I'm not on any social media and I've also left Google browser...
Amen
Lutheran churches in Norway retain religious art, even the post-Reformation ones. Not quite the same as icons mind you, but still.
Does anyone know where I can find the music at start and finish please?
th-cam.com/video/c1Q1mj_s-hA/w-d-xo.html qutie the catchy tune
30:40 As a protestant I must admit I didn't know about that. There's a Baptist monastery in my home town so I guess I just assumed otherwise. That does mean, however, that Josiah is wrong to say there's no such thing as reformed monasticism. We don't pretend to be static and can amend such things, though I don't think celibate Christians should only have the option of a cloistered life exclusively; Paul says he wishes people could be like himself, and Paul's life is spent as a traveling missionary, not in a monastery. Overall though seems to be less misrepresentation in this video than the last one, which isn't saying much but still an improvement.
Very interesting perspective of the issues the Orthodox Church sees in Protestantism, quite eye opening. It didn't really cover the biggest issues evangelicals would have with the Orthodox Church. i.e. praying to saints and treating Mary as a co-redeemer of humanity.
Orthodox don’t use that co mediatrix language, that is Catholic. Also he forgot to mention Martin Luther had a devotion to the Virgin Mary
@@Orthodoxyandzataar Very interesting, I didn't know either of those.
@@BryantMoore87 he mentioned that all believed in her perpetual virginity. I think his whole point was their inconsistencies and their separation from the early church. Ya they may not pray to saints but they’ve complete lost touch with the past . Praying to the saints has been done since the beginning of Christianity and there was no issue till 1500 years later in Germany .
Christian Labor: in reply to your comment about St Paul being not being ordained by the apostles: "Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas (Peter) and remained with him fifteen days. But I saw none of the other apostles except James the Lord's brother" (Gal. 1: 18-19) While there is no record on scripture of formal "ordination", it is clear St Paul was approved by St Peter and St James. Such approval would indicate St Paul was in line with the key apostles (i.e., apostolic succession).
@Matthew Pings imho, the power of the spirit should not be poopooed. The blanket condemnation of such as demonic is, I think, extremely misguided and sounds like the complaints of the pharisees.
But to be sure. It's possible for people to fake the gifts of the spirit, and yes possible for the demonic to parade as such good things on purpose in order to infiltrate and deceive.
As someone raised pentecostal I have perceived both legitimate gifts on display as evidenced by good fruit and discipleship that is legitimate and BEAUTIFUL. I've even seen it at something like Brownsville.
But I've seen people fake it, right in the middle of a Brownsville type move. And I knew one who did so to have previously been a Wiccan, abd to find out later her conversion was overtly false, and her acting out elements of a baptism in the spirit were totally cynical on her part. But she never faked actual tongues, words of knowledge, etc. Just the signs of ecstasy/bliss/worship.
Just my opinion. But I'm often extremely cautious about these things now and don't seek them, but the relationship I've experienced of legitimate experience of God accompanying very tangible Changes of the heart, of insights, of bliss, quite real, though rare.
@Matthew Pings yes. I think the call to test the spirits via prayer, via fruit of the spirit, via bring guided to truth, etc. These verify good experiences as legitimate as long as they can't be explained away via emotional hysteria, which is possible.
@@nicodemuseam I too would question any mystical insight which comes via extreme asceticism. While an ascetic life, in controlled bursts or in moderation is in alignment with scripture (occasional fasting for guidance and humility and discipline), a life of seeking mystical experience via asceticism sounds too much like the new age movement... seeking vision quests, and is rooted in a gnostic view of both the flesh and of the spirit.
They've done modern scientific analysis of transcendental meditation or advanced "mindfulness", as is done in lay buddhist, and there are noted brain wave changes that lead predictably to a feeling of euphoria, transcendental experience and something akin to nivana or oneness with the universe or "god". It can be clinically triggered.
While this doesn't invalidate a real experience as being genuine or meaningful, it does mean that people who are simply chasing the "feeling" of intimacy with the divine and manufacture it via asceticism without it being due to any real genuine two way intimacy with God, personal calling or greater spiritual truth beyond canned nonsense common to the flakey new age crowd.
Again, I'm not knocking asceticism in general. But as a practice, it can become almost a false God in and of itself. The Essenes weren't in the right, they were in the wrong. They tried to seperate themselves completely and this just lead to having no children, passing on no meaningful legacy, and a false sense of righteousness.
I respect why Tertullian supported the Montanists. He thought they were just a logical outgrowth of the church, operating in the gifts of prophecy and an ascetic life, but they went astray. I see no evidence that Tertullian himself embraced damnable heresy, he was just mistaken and thought they were sincere, while others in the church were more critical. After the fact it's easy to see where they went wrong but hindsight is 20/20.
After learning some more, I'm convinced that Paul was called much like the OT prophets, and he even uses language akin to the prophet Jeremiah speaking about it.
@@ravissary79 "a life of seeking mystical experience via asceticism" this is not the purpose of asceticism...not for a second. Asceticism is born out of humility and repentance. This is not hinduism, this is Christianity...
The closest Orthodox church to me is like 400km.
No one here even know about what it is. My protestant friends never heard of it until I presented. If it wasn't by reading authors like John Wesley and NT Wright I'd never know Orthodoxy Faith. Meanwhile there's a protestant building at every corner, thou teaching all sorts of false doctrines, giving the People a glimpse about the God of the Bible.
Father Josiah,...what do you know about the "Stone-Campbell Revival Movement"?, (which began shortly after the War of 1812).
Anyone know what version of the Bible is quoted for Paul in 1st Corinthians at the "24:30" mark?
Hello. Does someone know what painting that is 37:26?
I tried finding a place to buy this book online, but all three links showed the book as sold out or unavailable. Is there a direct way to purchase your book? Perhaps a phone number or mailing address?
It’s on Amazon
When the Western Empire ended so did the office of Emperor.... A vacuum which the Roman Patriarch had, sadly, to fill.
Seemed well spoken and was willing to criticize his own denomination in the hope that it would be improved.
Can someone not have a connection to a physical church and still be saved? If they genuinely believed on Jesus Christ and repented, and have a legitimate reason for not going to church like a health issue, I don't see a reason to doubt their salvation.
There are examples of Orthodox Saints who didn't have access to a local parish, etc, but because of their repentance and withdraw from the world are considered Saints by The Church. Saint Mary of Egypt for example. The vast majority of people inside the Church (the laity) needs the Church and its sacraments in order to follow the transformational process of salvation though. Orthodox don't believe salvation is a one and done event just because someone professes faith in Christ. Faith is worked out through fear and trembling and expressed through good works to be genuine. Conforming to Church life, attending liturgy, taking part in the Sacraments, are all part of that.
As far as i know of, if you have a health issue then the Church (ie the clergy) may come to you if possible...
WOW
OMG.✝️
reading scripture is fraught with difficulty and can be dangerous without proper guidance. How can we know what we read without a teacher.
31:32 where can I find this icon?
Search for: "Mother of God Joy of All Who Sorrow Icon" or "Theotokos: Joy of All That Sorrow" and that should get you close. Good luck and God Bless!
I am planning on entering the Roman Catholic Church although, because of COVID19 I am waiting till next year. I have always loved the Greek Orthodox Church. My husband is greek and we lived in a very greek neighborhood for many years (Astoria, Queens). Watching this just pulls at my heart strings. I long for union between the orthodox and RCC. This is confusing me! Vatican 2 confuses me! ahhhh. I just want to follow God the way He wants me too. Any thoughts? Anyone else wavering between orthodox verses catholicism? Maybe you've gone Byzantine?
You may want to look into Eastern Rite Catholics. Very similar to Eastern Orthodox in terms of Liturgy and Spirituality but in communion with the Bishop of Rome.
Arielle Adamy You should look into why the EO and RC split up to figure out who is the true church and look into the first 1000 years of the church and compare it with now and see who has been faithful to the traditions and who has deviated.
Become Orthodox, not Catholic. The Catholic Church destroyed its own liturgy and sacramental and artistic traditions in the second half of the twentieth century. They also contradicted their own prior dogmatic teachings at Vatican II and dissociated salvation from explicit Christian faith and water baptism, which destroyed missions and undermined their own authority and practice internally. If you love Orthodoxy but become Catholic instead, you'll regret it.
@@mickyt2883 Exactly, Dr Jeannie Constantinou on Ancient Faith Radio will set her straight. Orthodoxy is Worship in the way of early Church. She has free podcasts. This Women teaches Seminarians and is Married to an Orthodox Priest.
Dearest Arielle, I love the Catholic Church as well as Orthodox Tradition. I returned to the Catholic Church after many years in the Wilderness. It is His Church. That is why I came back. Find a Traditional Latin Mass or Eastern Rite Liturgy. Invite and include your husband. Patiently pray for him. May God continue to Guide, Gift and Guard you.
What English Bible version does Fr Josiah uses?
is this book translated in Greek
Papa Nicolas Christodoulou I haven’t seen it here,but I think you could call Fr. Josiah’s Church, the Antiochian Diocese, and ask them.
Observe a person.... See what they like, what influences them, what they are crazy about.... It can be a princess.... It can be a nun. It is not magic. It is method.
Benny hinn has constantly taught heresy.
JOHN FRAME? Was Fr. Josiah PCA/OPC? That is a name I have not heard in a long time.
Additionally, I'll have to "go here" with the idea of Bishops losing apostolic succession immediately if they change some important belief or another: what happens if your Bishop consecrated your Priest in a moment of doubt? What if your Bishop's consecrator was a closet heretic?
Loci of Chemnitz- Dr.Krauth,Geissen 1742 in America Council of Trent. Dr Muhlenberg 1742 the Name of the wicked shall rot,the memory of the just ,blessed, the Righteous shall be in everlasting remembrance..Amen
Yes it was because the Anglican church told me it was okay to participate in my exclusive same sex attractions: that i had to leave. I also came to see a great many other secular beliefs in the church, and how unified she was. I would walk into one Anglican church which would seem like a Calvinistic reformed low church and not recognise those who say their my brothers. Then walk into a high church that was in all but the pope a catholic church, full of Mary adoration. I happened to be in a liberal gay friendly church where scripture was just a guide to people in the past not relevant now.
The Episcopal Church in the United States (originally known as the Protestant Episcopal Church in the United States) derailed itself from orthodox Christianity years back.
Bishop James Pike of San Francisco was one of the first I remember to help and derail the church as we see it today.
@Funkyfedaykin, try Frank Schaeffer
+pontification - I would advise anyone to stay far away from Frank Schaeffer . For a time he was promoting Orthodoxy (as an angry former Protestant) , but he seems to have drifted far away from Orthodoxy and I don't think he's a good representative of the Orthodox Church.
I don't like too many Protestant preachers but I liked John MacArthur. Then one day I discovered he's an anti Catholic bigot.
Yes…. I used to absolutely love/follow everything John MacArthur taught. Since returning to Orthodoxy, I can go back to listen to him and I shudder to think that I had such a high estimation of him. He has a very ugly attitude towards both RCC and the Orthodox Church. I do pray for him…..he’s convinced that his way of thinking is the only way with legitimacy…….may Christ have mercy. ❤️☦️❤️
20:45
Tragically, satan and the papacy destroyed the Roman Catholic Church.
Agree. I thought this listening to part I. Christ said the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church. I guess the Roman Catholuc Church is not His Church, nor the Protestant denominations.
Great video but disappointed by Fr. Trenham and Kevin's view on Oriental Orthodox. There are many Eastern Orthodox clergy, academics, and laymen who would believe otherwise.
Comments on eveangelical view of singleness at 35:00 are quite disingenuous I feel. Up until this point i felt (in both videos) that there was a fair (if not slanted) comments on protestantisim.
+J.M. B-Ham The reason that there is no monasticisim in Protestantisim is because it threw out the vain traditions of man in favour of Faith, Doctrine and Doxology founded on the Word of God. As a tradition of man, it is faulty to argue that a lack of monasticisim causes a poor view of singliness. In addition, such a view implies that in order to serve God well and remain single one must be a monastic.
As an assembly of god person who is now investigating orthodoxy, let’s just say that what I have learned in Assembly of God Bible school, and what I have done through investigating, I have learned that Benny hen is a heretic. He teaches things that are categorically against the faith.
Interviewer: asks a question.
Fr. Trenham: mm. Yes. What a profound question.
I believed that the Church went apostate and became catholic through paganism not realizing the other churches in revelation were still here and never even left! Literally my understanding was real christians churched in homes in secret outside of the catholic church, its nonsense is what it was, the Orthodoxy totally got eclipsed by the catholic church in the west.
where does scripture speak of sacraments. baptism is a jewish ritual i was taught
1) The Eucharist was historically the final act of the Agape meal.
2) The early churches of the apostles were the continuation of synagogue worship, in which early Christians took part in the “leitourgia,” which in English is translated as Liturgy.
3) Baptismal regeneration was handed down to the apostolic fathers by the apostles as the way to receive the Holy Spirit.
4) All of this together creates an ancient practice of becoming baptised (receiving the Holy Spirit), taking part of the Eucharist (receiving life from the blood and body of Christ), and worshipping Christ on earth as is done in heaven (taking part in the Liturgy).
Very interesting and generally quite knowlegible, but he is incorrect in saying that Luther tossed out the apocrypha. He is also incorrect in saying that Lutherans didn't maintain the historic episcopacy, the apostolic succession. One example is the Church of Sweden at the time of the change from RC to Lutheran where the archbishop himself changed basically overnight and remaining quite orthodox in the faiht and practice, tossing out.romish pergatory and indulgences.
I do not appreciate all protestants being lumped together. Come to more churches, we have Christian art too. I am liking this video because it includes things that are important to consider.
Christian art is not the same as icons, all icons are Christian art, but not all Christian art is icons
The fact that your not “lumped together” is a total admission of how divided and inconsistent Protestantism is as a whole. The delusions and divisions are exactly why I’m converting to Orthodoxy
Calvin might have been smart but what arrogance to presume he could defrock somebody. Was he voted in or did he lay his hands on his own head like some do today?
I honor your maturity and wisdom Mr. Trenham, but there are a few errors here that need mentioning.
Have there not been Greek/Eastern fathers that have accidentally taught heresy? Indeed there has been any they were corrected. The fact the a protestant accidentally espoused heresy, that was quickly recanted and retracted mind you, proves nothing. This is clearly an example of special pleading.
Also, Martin. Luther did not “break” his vow. Von Staupitz released Luther from his vow in order to spare the Augustinian order any more controversy. To assert that He brome his vow is simply not true.
I think his point about heresy here was quite clear. And, yes, virtually no Orthodox priest, would make such a statement, especially a such well-known/influential one in our times. That is, as stipulated in the video, because the Orthodox Tradition is quite clear about these things or Christology and Trinitarianism in general. I think that that was the main point here; Tradition protects from otherwise heretical misconceptions...
There's absolutely no outreach from catholic or orthodox churches.. I go there and am usually not welcomed and the priests don't really care to talk to me
@@KonstantinosPerth yeah I talked with an orthodox priest. He wasn't very interested. I'm going to convert to Catholicism if the churches ever open back up again
@@KonstantinosPerth there's like 3 orthodox churches in my city and they're not even in communion with each other. I don't care for Catholics that much either but I'm just trying to take care of my soul
@@KonstantinosPerth there's Russian and Greek orthodox here but they're not in communion with each other
@@KonstantinosPerth ok
@@KonstantinosPerth en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Moscow%E2%80%93Constantinople_schism
And yet Paul was quite clearly NOT ordained by the apostles. If apostolic succession is so important, why are we not given Ananias' apostolic pedigree? "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light...." Certainly many fall short of doing a lot of priestly work, but none are overtly denied that role once they are baptized. I'm all for looking to be baptized by someone who is legitimately of the faith, but apostolic succession seems to me to be something that is not revoked by any authority that could exist in the Catholic church, and again since the Orthodox church had no representation in the west, having abandoned it more or less, there is nothing else for it except to see the expansion of Protestantism as the new source of apostolic authority.
It's interesting that you say that each individual with a Bible is not sufficient to judge councils, and yet this is clearly the reality on the ground, and has been since the first days of the church. Every single believer MUST choose which teachers they will follow. Paul himself was beset immediately by those who sought to draw his converts away toward their teaching, and so he went back and argued strenuously, NOT that he should be believed because of any specific succession or any specific authority bestowed by men, but because his teachings were the consistent teachings of Christ and of God going back to the beginning.
THIS is the assurance of authority. When a person follows the demonstrated authority of God, then they are withing that authority.
And I'd add, for a Christian just starting out, the safest route is to not claim authority at all until you have studied the scriptures, and to lay claim to authority over time as doctrines become clear.
But in the end, it is of course always going to be impossible to separate each individual person from the authority inherently given them by God to decide for themselves whom they will trust.
The reason a protestant would accept Protestantism in spite of the fact that much of what is considered protestant today is now of the original protestant reformation is that it takes time for the general population to come into an understanding of the scriptures and of church history. We go by what we know, and as we know more we grow closer to God just as the Catholic church reforms and continued Orthodox councils draw them closer to God. Then, as we all grow closer to God, we ought eventually to coalesce around certain fundamental truths we all can agree upon, whereas some of what Orthodox, Catholic, and early reformers believed is simply never going to be acceptable to Protestants because we have simply moved on from them. Having found no basis for them either in scripture or in tradition, we have moved past Mariology and the Theotokos. There may well be value in Theotokos in establishing Jesus as fully man, but the idea that eternal God had an eternal earthly mother is one that is difficult if not impossible to credit, and there is in reality no reason to try. There is nothing salvatory about a full understanding of exactly to what extent Mary might be spiritually the mother of Jesus, who is the Word made flesh, and to what extent it is simply a more complete expression of that concept of "Word made flesh". One need only understand that Jesus was and is a man - the first born among many brethren. Constantly nagging people to try to "understand" the inexplicable is part of why we have all the schism we have today.
I have a deep respect for trying to maintain Christological doctrine and the concept of the Trinity, but I have to say that almost no one "gets" the Trinity at first, and as is often stated, the word "Trinity" is nowhere in scripture. So to behave as if some misunderstanding of the concept of the Trinity will cause massive error in the Christian life just seems like an incredibly artificial problem.
The simple fact is that the Orthodox are not evangelical. If you're not going to GET OUT THERE, someone else will. They may teach wrong. They may not have all the right liturgical sense. They may have a THOUSAND things going on that are less than ideal, but if you're not out there doing it, then that's all the rest of us have left.
You also miss that, though you talk and talk about the effects of politics on church in the west, politics and just the dynamics of law and of population flow also cause folks to not know anything about Orthodoxy. And how, at this late date, are you then going to come in and snap those folks up into Orthodoxy when you still cling to things that the more educated among the Evangelicals know to be, at best, extraneous, and at worst tending towards idolatry or vanity, such as Mariology or Iconography? These things simply ARE NOT necessary, and yet you continue to place weight on them far beyond what one might expect from the point of view of them being a part of Christian liberty to express our faith in ways that are meaningful to us in our own lives and experiences.
The relationship aspects you touch on are very real though. These massive churches create many thousands of superficial converts who then have no friendship or connection or framework for their faith. Into that void steps whom? Often enough, Satan. But here again, WHERE are the Orthodox? It's not as if it is a part of Orthodoxy to go screaming around trying to gather all these abandoned sheep. This video is a good step in the right direction I have to say. I have enjoyed it immensely and am now motivated to go find an Orthodox church, but it seems to me there needs to be more. The distinct lack of Orthodox outreach is the fault of Orthodoxy and Orthodoxy alone at this point, as far as I can tell. If others are out there misleading folks, it is up to you to get out there with equal fervor.
And that's more or less how you wrap up, so... get to it! Hopefully I find an Orthodox church this weekend to visit.
+Christian Labor Paul needed no ordination because Christ appointed him Apostle, the requirements for this being having been around same time as Jesus on earth, and a witness of His Resurrection. which happened on the Damascus Road and later in the desert.
infowolf1 That's more or less my point, yes. Each Apostle is ordained by God, and there are no more Apostles after they die. You see that the twelve foundations are for each of the Apostles for example.
Apostolic succession just doesn't jive with scripture or the realities on the ground. There is no clear human line of authority. Some Popes were overtly anti-Christs. It just doesn't work.
Apostolic Succession isn't just about popes, all these discussions focus on the unbiblical and untraditional claims of the papacy. But they were just the orthodox patriarchs of Rome until AD. 1054. Apostolic Succession is about all the bishops, but is breakable by overtly held heresy.
Paul writing to the Romans, explaining he'd been too busy elsewhere to come to them yet (apparenty the faith was there by the word of Christians who went there and converted others, but a formal establishing of them as a congregation hadn't happened, and Peter and Paul did this later) said he wanted to give them some spiritual gift so they'd be established. a charism for lack of a better term to be passed by an Apostle or through an Apostolic lineage of a bishop was lacking. This is not about personal behavior but some special imprint of The Holy Spirit. Romans 1:11.
infowolf1 You're perhaps unaware that there is a teaching that this is because the Apostles themselves were the direct appointees of Christ, needing to be witnesses of His resurrection, and that they had been given the authority to pass on a charism indeed, but not one that extended past the person they selected.
There shall no sign be given this generation thus begins to make more sense once the necessary signs were performed by the apostles and those they were able to directly bless with such overt signs. This authority did not transfer past the generation of the apostles themselves, so the argument goes. The extended generation that is to go on until the end, therefore, will not benefit from overt signs. That's the teaching as best I can relate it.
I don't know what to make of the whole thing. On the one hand, it seems ridiculous not to be baptized by a Christian. On the other hand, it is for all practical intents impossible to verify any sort of legitimate succession of Christians. Heck, the only sensible interpretation of "judge not" is not to judge the state of a person's soul, since it is clear from the same exact scriptures that we are to "judge righteous judgement". So how then is it at all possible to verify a legitimate succession when we are instructed not to judge whether or not someone else is "truly" Christian?
Anyway, thanks for trying to help, and if you have further info feel free to pass it along.
yes the Apostles had to be witnesses of Christ's resurrection, though there were at least 500 people altogether who saw Him, they also should be those who were accompanying Him in His travels. This is in Acts, where Judas is replaced by Matthew.
The succession is not of quality of a person's life or even actual belief. The charism passed by laying on of hands operates by itself. a priest is not needed to baptize in an emergency. The succession is of bishops, who ordained elders later called priests.
that succession is documented.