Rock and Sand : Part I
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 3 ต.ค. 2024
- In this special two part series, Kevin Allen (Host of Ancient Faith Today) sits down with Father Josiah Trenham, author of the new book Rock and Sand; An Orthodox Appraisal of the Protestant Reformation and Their Teachings.
This book has been written for three purposes. First, to provide the Orthodox reader with a competent overview of the history of Protestantism and its major traditions, from its beginnings in the 16th century to the present day. This overview relies heavily upon the Reformer s own words as well as the creeds of various Protestant faiths, in order to avoid misrepresentation and caricature. Second, to acquaint Orthodox and non-Orthodox readers with a narrative of the historical relations between the Orthodox East and the Protestant West. Finally, to provide a summary of Ortho- dox theological opinion on the tenets of Protestantism.
ARCHPRIEST JOSIAH TRENHAM was ordained to the Holy Priesthood in 1993, and was awarded the Ph.D. in Theology from the University of Durham, England, in 2004.
Fr. Josiah serves as an instructor in and on the Board of Advisors of the Ss. Cyril and Athanasius Orthodox Institute in San Francisco. He is an adjunct professor of theology at St. Katherine College in Encinitas, Ca. (2010-present), and was an Adjunct Professor of History at California Baptist University (2003-2010). He is a member of the Orthodox Theological Society of America, and participates in yearly academic forums and symposia. Since 2004 he has served on the Mayoral Environmental Committee (GAP) of the City of Riverside. Fr. Josiah has also served as a member of the Secretariat of the Assembly of Orthodox Bishops in the United States since its inception in May, 2010.
Fr. Josiah s books and articles have been published by St. Herman Press, Zoe Press, St. Vladimir s Orthodox Theological Journal, Logos: A Journal of Eastern Christian Studies, The Journal of the Institute on Religion and Democracy, CIVA: The Journal of Christians in the Visual Arts, Divine Ascent, The Word Magazine, OrthodoxyToday.org, American Orthodox Institute, Sourozh, Pemptousia.com (Vatopaidi Monastery), Eastern Churches Review, and elsewhere.
Listen to the audiobook version of Rock and Sand (read by the author Fr. Josiah Trenham) here:
patristicnecta...
For more information on Patristic Nectar Publications visit our website at www.patristicne...
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I’m currently Protestant and feel a strong attraction to the Orthodox Church
Me too
We welcome you to the faith brother ☦️ Christ is risen
@@shadeOfTheNarrowPath thank you! I’ve visited this Orthodox Church in my area id love to learn more about the faith
In one hour I've learned about the history of the faith of my childhood than in my entire upbringing.
As a former Lutheran, I particularly love this interview. This also reminds me of how much I miss my friend, Kevin Allen. May his memory be eternal. Abbot Tryphon
May God bless you and grant you peace, Abbot Tryphon.
Indeed!
As a former Martin Luther, you are welcome for modern German.
Fr. Tryphon..You are the coolest person that ever used TH-cam.
@abbottryphon9398
"When it's real, you take structure seriously. When you think it's invisible, you can discard structure."
Utterly profound.
As a teenage Protestant wishing to convert to Orthodoxy this book is going to be my first dive into the orthodox perspective. Can’t wait to read it
May God be with you and with us.
Im catholic but i can tell you the orthodox have amazing writers and information. You might want to look into Kallistos Ware also (apologies if i wrote it wrongly im not so good with names). I hope you do decide that way so you can receive the sacraments. Baptism, Chrism, Holy Communion this is vital to have the graces required to be a full member of Christ. God bless you.
As a current Catechumen I would encourage you to take your time in preparing yourself and studying. God bless you!
bro join a catechesis if you have one at church... trust me man
So how did it go? Have you converted? God bless you brother ☦️
As a convert to Orthodoxy from the Church of England I've found that so many protestants want church to be entertaining, to make them feel better, to cut out the really hard work that the true Church requires is to do; constant prayer, constant having to confess, repent, engage in the cycle of services.
Exactly that is the exact word to describe their false thoughts
many evangelical churches have engaged in "dumbing down" too, trying very hard to cater mainly for the "unchurched" - a kind notion but it keeps the spiritual level of a church sadly very low.
@@TheMOV13 And yet you, with your vastly superior spirituality, felt it best to leave them there in that state without doing the hard work to lift them up to a higher level? Weird. Maybe review James 2:16 and think about it in context.
@@theTavis01 No idea what you’re talking about, your comment has zero connection with anything I’ve actually said. Or have you mixed me up with someone else?
@@TheMOV13 you said that "the spiritual level" of many churches is "sadly very low" but you don't appear to have done anything to help that situation, which is why I pointed you towards that Bible verse. You say they are starving spiritually, but do not offer them food? PS - saying "we're right and you're wrong" is not feeding them. If you are the "true" church you should have an overflowing abundance of spirituality that you can give freely from, so that they cannot help but notice that you are the "real" deal as you serve them with love.
42:11 As a lifelong Protestant, and new Catechumen, it's like I'm rediscovering my faith.
Same here. Almost a month in myself!
Amen
Me too ...
We are ...
Same here! 🤍
it’s been a long journey to get here but I am grateful our Father has placed me here, I am blessed and feel so humbled
I have become so provoked by the thought that we trusted them to give us the Bible but toss out the way they understood it.
Brothers and sisters .
Only Orthodoxy is the true Church the one established by Our Lord Jesus Christ .
Apostolic succession is with all our Priests.
God willingly many good American Protestants who wholeheartedly love God will come to his true path.
@@oppressedaussiebattler3561 "God willingly many good American Protestants who wholeheartedly love God will come to his true path." And what actions are you taking in order for this to happen? James 2:16
I have always considered myself a "christian mutt" not feeling like I "fit" 100% into my Baptist church family or when I was attending Methodist churches or as a child going to whichever church my parents took me to.
My son converted to Orthodoxy last summer & in the last 2-3 years he has sent me hundreds of articles, prayers, videos on the Orthodox church. I feel it in my bones & heart that this is THE church. I am struggling with where to go from here. I'm mostly content in filling the seat on the Sunday mornings I can go to my church (I do love my preacher & his sermons) & listening to videos on the orthodox saints (or ANYTHING Fr Josiah Trenham has to say!) for the rest of the week.... But I know that is probably not enough.
I live 50 miles or more from an orthodox church & my husband might not be on board with such a radical change.
If anyone out there is reading this, I am asking for prayers ❤ many thanks
You are in my prayers - may God guide you!
1. Contact bishops in your area or Priests nearest that cna help. We are growing fast in western nations.
2. Start praying with Orthodox prayer book. Start an Icon corner. Follow as close as possible the fasts.
God bless you, Carmen.
God will take care all of your concerns! Have trust in him!! God loves you more than we do! We also love you a lot ❤❤❤❤
Praying for you 🙏 ☦️
Particular baptist exploring orthodoxy and this man has just shattered every foundation I had about my faith.
I never went back to the independent KJV Baptist church I was a part of for years. These videos were the last straw for me.
It strained many relationships - even familial ones - but I could not go back.
I became Orthodox almost 2 years ago and have no regrets; only one is that I had not taken Orthodoxy more seriously earlier. I saw it as something too "foreign" or "wierd".
What a fool I am.
Lord, have mercy on me.
@@George-ur8ow I am ashamed of what I used to believe and speak as a Protestant. Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, the sinner.
@@that_sun_guy6527 the same here. Also, maybe change your username? Idk if you know, this was the pagan God Constantine revered before converting
@@George-ur8ow Yeah I’ve had other complaints about my username. Will do.
Manuel Vásquez, I am praying for you that your faith in God would not fail, but it would be strengthened from His Word. That must be your highest authority.
As someone who grew up protestant, this talk was very thought provoking. Also loved Fr. Josiah's talk about Orthodoxy and Catholicism
But he is not the right person to talk about Roman Catholicism but ignorant of the Immaculate Conception and The Petrine Doctrine. Denying Peter's Unifying authority is a schismatic thing The bishop of Constantinople is a divisive thing in the Catholic Church.
He's well aware of those Catholic innovations bruh.
@mysterychemistry he did but it was not the way the Roman Catholics are talking about
@@ronaldignacio3574 Rome unifies the West as its only apostolic See, and was the ultimate resolver of disputes for the East until the Schism. This is not under contention and I doubt Fr. Josiah would contend with that. I would join you in contending the Immaculate Conception - even taking in that the great St. John Maximovich thought there were aspects of it that went too far - and with the thinking that faculties disappear at the onset of believing incorrect things (this presents the "what if my last Confessor before death was privately an atheist" problem) but this is doctrine in Russia, not a doctrine particular to him.
@@ronaldignacio3574 well he doesnt have complete knowledge on catholic doctrine but concerning Immaculate Conception and Peters primacy he expresses the orthodox view on it. Im catholic and honestly i think it is a deep problem that Popes issued dogmas ordering people to believe certain things. The orthodox go to Church Fathers and Scripture (obviously) and theres are some variations in opinion but the person has more freedom to adhere to the interpretation they accept. Especially papal infalibility...what is that all about? Ecumenical councils?! How? If we are not in communion with the orthodox and they with us? These kinds of tyrannical attitudes keep us divided. How can i enter dialogue if i think myself above my oponnent? We have the Pope we have and its a circus and people keep saying follow him blindly....obedience. well at the least the orthodox have checks and balances the patriarchs look at each other and if someone is being heretical they will be called out. Who guards the guards? Who checks on Peter? No one is the answer.
Thank you so much for this. My wife and I have been on a very emotional journey to Orthodoxy that has seemed too difficult to bear at times. My heart is broken for those we left behind in our previous tradition.
Ditto. It's been a very hard move. My parents are not happy either. My wives friends are not happy.
But, we can't do anything but follow where the Holy Spirit leaves us.
We are so steeped in western mindset thinking, makes it even harder. I highly recommend the book Thinking Orthodox as well. And a kind of secular video here on TH-cam, Weaponization of the Dialectic, is mind opening, although I don't vouch for any of the people personally, not familiar with each and all possible issues if you were to turn to them theologically or spiritually, just helpful in the area of epistemology I think.
Can you share some of the difficulties you have faced in your journey?
Phenomenal! From an ex-baptist pastor.
This video was what I needed to make my decision. Father Josiah must be one of the most brilliant minds in the church today.
Have you converted?
This is a wonderful interview. Fr. Josiah's story reflects a lot of my own experience of starting out my Christian experience in Protestantism and coming home to Orthodoxy over a long and sometimes very difficult path. I, too, have had to struggle with the lack of continuity with ancient practises and beliefs that we hold so dear in Orthodoxy. Thanks be to God that He led me here.
motley crue?
Amen
Southlander1000+ I've jUST come home too!
Amen!!! In a way, I'm very grateful that most churches are becoming so liberal and wayward, because it forced me out the door having become jaded by their excuses for their incorrect teachings. Glory to God!! Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner! Pray for my wife that the Lord open her eyes also so we can become Orthodox as a family. Currently only I am a Catechumen while she and the kids continue to attend our Baptist Church.
I'm starting to see that Orthodoxy is going to clear up a lot of scriptures that didn't really make sense as far as the protestant churches I've investigated do in practice. Very interesting, thanks for posting.
Can you give some examples to this? Reformed Protestant myself, but I’d like to hear you out and see which passages
Hebrews chapter 6 makes no sense according on Protestantism.
@@coyotebuttons
@@OJPrimereally? I’m a Protestant myself and I think Hebrews 6 is quite clear as a warning against rejecting the faith and falling away after having received the new life given us by faith in Jesus Christ
@@localnwah7044 I agree
@localnwah7044
It can't because if you're already saved how do you lose salvation?
The video talks about this when it comes to the tenses of "saved"
It's always a saving process, to that which you will be saved
He is highly educuted, with charismatic speech. God bless you.
Помаже Бог браћо и сестре. Such a great interview, i could learn a lot of things from this conversation. I am so thankful to listen to this, especially because i was born in orthodox tradition, but i didn't appreciate it. Blessings from Serbian orthodox. ❤️
A big realization for me was that, as a southern Baptist, I couldn’t find what I believed in history.
I realized I was being “liberal” with the Bible the same way certain activist Supreme Court justices are “liberal” with the US Constitution.
Yeah. I had the same realization. It's been hard, but the history of the Church really doesn't lie.
Seeing Kevin Allen caught my breath, and brings some tears to my eyes. Memory eternal.
Can I say how lovely it is to see and hear Kevin Allen and his excellent questions and interviewing. He anticipates so many of my questions and that is a real gift. Superb series of interviews on an excellent book. Fr Josia is always a good listen and a gracious speaker and writer. Many thanks
I’ve been an evangelical for almost 60 years and I’ve done my studies from the Greek text for over 30 years. A lot of my understandings from the Greek New Testament have been very difficult for American Christian’s to believe. One such understanding is what this priest is saying about salvation. Salvation is a process that is being worked out, we are “being saved” if we overcome until the end then we will “be" saved. You’ll never convince most Baptist of this.
So well said ,, Baptists are so stuck in their “ Tradition “…. and then accuse others,, I know, I attend a Baptist church… but I’m not a member
The "now, and not yet."
@@princekermit0 Hello ,, could you please explain what you mean in your comment…. What is it that you are trying to say ???
@@maxprescott9371 He is saying we are saved and are being saved, working out our salvation with fear in trembling - as a process, like theosis. Its in refence to what Fr Trenham was saying about the tense of the word "saved" in the NT. It was also a comment affirming what the original commentor said.
@@dumbidols yep
Raised Lutheran and heard the "have you been saved?" question for the first time in college. It utterly bewildered me. I had no idea what the evangelicals were talking about and it never made sense to me how they could know the answer to that.
Excellent work Fr. Josiah, Kevin, and Nick!
What an insightful interview! Thank you so much for this video. I have been drawn to The Orthodox Church for quite a while now, and will most definitely convert. Thank you and God bless
Christian Andersen, out of curiosity, did you end up joining an Orthodox church?
I was baptized Catholic but have been convinced that the Orthodox Church is the true lineage of Christ’s Church.
God bless you.
You have heard the calling.
Answer it and come to his Church the Orthodox Church
I converted to Catholicism in 2010 from a Protestant tradition. Over the last few years I have felt that there was more to the story in the ancient Church then I learned. I believe at that time I needed the Catholic Church but now the Lord is calling me to complete the circle. It is hard, very hard but I can't continue to ignore the call to Orthodoxy however long it takes. Fr. Josiah has been so instrumental in the journey, thank you for this interview.
@@jcgurl3773 I will keep you in my prayers! As a convert to Roman Catholicism and now an Orthodox Christian, I felt your comment in my heart! I too felt that a lot was missing and or heavily misconstrued within the Roman Catholic Church. Going through Vatican I&II is enough to see this plain and clear, let alone the many contradictive publications from the magisterium. And that's exactly how I see my entrance into Orthodoxy, the completion of true Catholicity. They are many who have walked this road from the RCC to Orthodoxy, and I suspect many more will walk it in the very near future. May the Lord our God, keep and bless you always. Amen
I was catholic and found Holy Orthodoxy ☦️. I’ve never looked back
Glory to God ☦
O sr. é brasileiro ou português? Eu sou portuguesa. Também me interesso pela ortodoxia mas não sei muito bem o que farei. Cumprimentos
I'm on this journey now 🙏📿
Hey! I’m Roman Catholic and looking into Orthodoxy. May I ask why you converted?
4:09 Seeing Lack of Stability in Protestantism
6:47 Rock and Sand: House Built on Rock vs House Built on Sand. One Survives, The Other swept up by the flood.
*Protestant Christianity compared to Orthodoxy*
8:27 They Love Scripture, Devoted to Missionary Work.
10:48 Martin Luther
13:43 Sola Scriptura is a heretical teaching.
19:02 Tradition: Through Letters and Through Word of Mouth
22:52 Sola Fide (Faith Alone) 23:46 25:49 Luther wanted to remove Epistle of James.
26:37 The Dogma of Justification should not be in conflict with The Apostles.
27:30 Protestants do good works, acknowledge sanctification.
There are many beautiful Protestant charities.
29:15 Protestant Emphasizes Salvation as Past Reality.
30:08 Orthodox work out Salvation with Fear and Trembling.
32:52 Pastor Rick Warren, SaddleBack Church.
35:22 -Indulgences-
43:29 Reformation: Reinterpretation
45:14 Originality is being faithful to the originals, not coming up with something new.
47:14 Reformers KEEP Reforming, so new reformers Kept reforming what the other reformers reformed off of Catholicism.
1:00:33 Written Prayers.
1. Listening 2. Evaluation 3. Amen , can't happen simultaneously
1:02:19 Lutheran, Reformed, Anabaptist.
1:04:09 Blood with Pope > Wine with Fanatics
1:05:29 Virginity
1:06:12 Icons
1:11:26, 1:12:08 Protestant Understanding of Saints 1:13:52 John Ch10
Thank you!!
thank you!
As a former traditional Lutheran, I am so grateful for my heritage. But I am so much MORE grateful for God bringing me into the fullness of the Faith in Holy Orthodoxy.
I was learning the calvinistic ways and the protestant tradition. Preaching that orthodooxy was completely false to many in the streets on a microphone and speaker. Traveling around cali and Arizona doing just that. I was ignorant and did not want to look at the beleifs of Orthodoxy at face value and take it with a grain of salt and really consider the claims and history. Once I did, I gave God nothing but praise and asked for mercy. What a sinner I am. My foundation as sand the whole time and I was decieved for a long time. Orthodoxy is the true expression of christianity and that is without a doubt. I am learning every day from the saints and the fathers and from the prayers of the church and the Jesus prayer and the liturgy and my spiritual father. Thanks be to God that I am here. I am a catechumen, but I know for a fact that one day I will take on that body and blood of christ. I gained a from protestantism and I can thank God for that as well, because it all eventually lead me to the one holy catholic and apostolic church!
Welcome ❤
Very nice testemony.
@plantatiel alithosanestiokyrios
Your words are the bread of salvation Father Josiah. Thank you for your guidance, wisdom and love. May the Creator continue to bless and channel blessings through...
thank you fr. josiah for your wonderful enlightenment. Let the light of orthodoxy shine over the Philippines...
This is a wonderful interview & book. As a twice PCA Ref. Elder & 34+yrs Reformed, now Orthodox...I sincerely pray my protestant friends, relatives and others will have the courage to slowly & carefully digest this book. It is rich and potentially enlightening to those with the integrity to open their hearts and read. Not only does Fr Josiah show several very pointed moral problems with the leading Reformers themselves...but also at several point demonstrates that the Reformers repeatedly refused to read their Bibles and follow the clear teaching of Scripture...historically preserved by the Orthodox Church. Lord have mercy. Holy Spirit have mercy on the Protestant & Reformed world.
I'm constantly shocked at how many PCA/OPC are turning Orthodox.
@@ourdictatorship I too was shocked at that same trend...seen in several of my Elder and Pastor friends. Now (5-yrs as a communing Orthodox Christian) the more I actually take the time to read what the best of Orthodox men/history say about themselves (rather than what many others mostly summarized in ignorance/bias) that trend makes good sense to me. It should not surprise us that faithful and sincere disciples of Christ will recognize...and gradually love the truth when they see it! ;-) What is your background/Church status? Lord have mercy on us all.
@@davidrockett5789 I am a sinner and a mess, in short :)
In longer form, I'm an ex-atheist/antitheist who grew up Baptist and then saw faith crumble in the face of easy atheist objections coupled with the free and guiltless life it offered (especially to a 19 year old).
At 32, I began to doubt just a little and became a Deist, and then spent the next two years in a long, arduous religious search that stopped with Christianity a year into it and Orthodox v. Copt. v. Catholic v. Assyrian six months prior to finally becoming Orthodox.
Rome was (and in theory still remains) a large problem for me, ideologically because I do think she had her claims for the Church in the **West,** remaining as the ultimate dispute resolver and ideological examiner for the East and also due (again, theoretically!) to their stances on divorce, contraception and the Immaculate Conception. That is even considering the great St. John Maximovich's comments on the subject - I essentially believe in a hybridized form of it. But I have Rome issues personally due to my wife coming out of lapsed Catholic status as I walked away from antitheism/atheism and then eventually becoming Latin Mass Catholic as I grew in the Ancient Faith myself - disagreements aside, I pride myself with being the one to lead her there from the Novus Ordo mass, even though my bid to lead her to Orthodoxy didn't ultimately work out (at least so far ...). Even the aforementioned St. John Maximovich called that "her venerable liturgy," and I am glad indeed that she at least is there and no longer in the (literal) mass confusion that is the rite of Paul VI.
Regarding atheism and my history with it, it left me the gifts of apathy and doubt - Thomas, in fact, is my patron saint, and also happens to be my middle name. It took me five years to finally weep for my sins (not coincidentally, about the same time my prayer rule became fleshed out beyond 30 seconds to a minute and gained consistency). The anger is probably the sin that is the worst, and the one that will end up taking me to Hell if I am not vigilant - especially the anger stemming from my pride. We all have anger, and surprisingly my patience has grown INCREDIBLY with God's grace, but on specific subjects (i.e. Critical Theory and generally anything politically Leftist, Darwinian or neo-Conservative) my anger is immense, including at my own brothers and sisters, and I am still prone to outbursts on the 'web from time to time in moments of weakness.
I in fact am here because I previously had a long post for Fr. Josiah that I took down that I wrote out of anger (I found out two weeks ago that my best friend passed away, and I have not been taking it well since then) - do you have any idea how to contact him so I can leave him an apology for that?
@@ourdictatorship Glory to God!
Thank you Fr Josiah, for helping me to fortify my purging from Protestant heresies. Lord have mercy on us & save us, for Your glory & name's sake.
I really appreciate this conversation, especially as a disenfranchised Protestant. I can’t yet come to terms with the Orthodox Church...need more mind renewing.
Same here Dan. I'm going to attend a Greek orthodox Church tomorrow and I'm currently running a non denominational group.
@@ReyWho unless you speak fluent Greek, I would recommend that you visit an Orthodox parish that uses English in their church services. There are plenty that use English exclusively. (Of course, hearing the ancient prayers in Greek is beautiful, too)
Find an orthodox parish with English services. Feel free to approach the priest and ask questions.
I went to it and most of it was in Greek. But someone in the service helped me out.
@@ReyWho Hope your experiences with the Orthodox Church have been positive so far! Make sure to stay for coffee hour after the Divine Liturgy; that's when you really get to know the people of the Church and learn about practical orthodoxy. Also check out Ancient Faith Radio (lots of great podcasts, my favorite being The Intersection of East and West since it's given by a former protestant). Ex-ELCA Lutheran here, so I understand the culture shock of looking at the Orthodox Church!
Thank you for clearing things up for me father. I have been a protistant all my life and didn't know the real truth at all. We get fed these lies and never get to know the truth. Thank you so much again for revealing it to me and to so many other, so greatly appreciated.
God bless Father Josiah and the many other people who assisted in the making of this video. Fr. Josiah is an excellent lecturer, teacher, priest, and representative of the Orthodox Christian Church. He has a rare talent for presenting thoughtful, coherent, and articulate reasoning when explaining elements of faith that other clerics and religious educators could benefit from emulating. His teachings have been very instrumental in influencing me in favor of the Orthodox Church, and I certainly intend to pursue a much deeper study of it than I have in the past. Thank you to all those responsible for creating and sharing this wonderful video. ☦️
He s also anti gay-an un Christian approach,
@@windstorm1000 he's an Orthodox priest. It's the most traditional brand of Christianity. They're not against homosexuals which is a cross a person bears. More against the act itself and trying to go and put it into a Sacrament and sexualise it.
LIC paradoxes all the time my head and her wife been married for 15 years most loving couple ever I know it's wrong while simultaneously it's not my job to judge them I just love them. And they're older in years to solve a relationship can move beyond the romantic sexual and be and be similar to love between spiritual sisters. The Orthodox tradition also have Saints and cleric that we would call gay. But the thing is you're not acting and they're dealing with the personally because it's their Cross. Great example would be Father Rose who conquered that passion.
@@nicodemuseam thanx for response. To each his own.
A very sad moment for me...I just realized I lived 5 miles from Fr. Trenham’s church and I never attended. I always wanted to attend but felt intimidated. I know live 2k miles away.
It takes me two hours to get to my Orthodox Church, be encouraged and attend, someone might live near you and give you a ride
@@bgail7669 I've been considering attending an Eastern Orthodox church nearest me (an hour and a half away) and you have just given me more encouragement to do so!
"Articulating a doctrine that previous generations would not recognize as their own faith."
worth thinking about that..
@@Meg-yd9zo
Fr. Josiah has uploaded a talk
that he gave about Catholicism
*"An Orthodox Perspective on Roman Catholicism"*
th-cam.com/video/y6zXs_cUSjQ/w-d-xo.html
RCC has got to get back on track.
(If it is possible, at this point)
I will continue to remain RCC and
pray for the Pope and clergy. So
many people have been dragged
down by the errors of Vatican ii.
Homeward Bound
At LEAST get out of the Latin rite. I considered that, and becoming Byzantine Catholic; Only the exponential growth of the most orthodox Uniate communities can defeat the Bugninites, whose abused flock is shrinking, one way or the other. A Greek or Ethiopian Pope would not only destroy the modernists, but would also be the best possible leader for exploring JP2’s proposal for reconsidering the idea of papal supremacy in an equitable way, a proposal that was strangely obfuscated by indifferent theologians that should have debated it.
However, I am ALREADY convinced of the equality of the Patriarchates based on my own research into Charlemagne and Duns Scotus, among others. After much consideration, I have ironically picked nearly the opposite path, and am now a Western Orthodox catechumen. I think it is important for the Western rite to grow within Orthodoxy regardless of what happens with Rome. If Rome finally becomes Orthodox again, we will have had enough of a presence to have helped the other Orthodox get used to the idea on a cultural level. If Rome never returns of her own volition, we will just keep growing and eventually, when The Vatican is a ghost town, we will elect our own Orthodox Pope and just clean up the place and move in.
Orthodox Catholicism wins eventually either way, but the former would be far less sad.
Jack Frost
Another reason I’m Western Orthodox now is because I’m too fond of using Hanlon’s Razor to accept Sedevacantism’s paranoid loony rationalizations for rejecting Vatican 2 and justify keeping Vatican 1, such as the extraordinary claim that Sister Lucy was murdered in 1958 and the woman who died of old age in 2005 was some diabolical imposter. You give modern evil FAR too much credit for competence for such a cohesive “grand conspiracy”. There was a MID-level conspiracy, but my extensive research into the claims made in “the Liturgical Time Bombs of Vatican 2” had me searching in vain for any PROVABLE higher-up in on the scheme higher than Bugnini: NONE. The corrupt buck stopped with him. Paul 6th wouldn’t have exiled Bugnini to Iran if they were co-conspirators, Yet JP2 didn’t have the nerve to finish formally excommunicating Bugnini, NOT as a friend but because it would have been political suicide for him to do so AFTER Bugnini made himself seem like an international hero as a neutral negotiator during the Iran hostage crisis. Yet, I contend, NOT excommunicating him was a de facto endorsement of Bugnini’s errors, if only accidentally. According to Duns Scotus, Popes should be INCAPABLE of endorsing the teaching of error of Bugnini’s magnitude even by accident. So I cannot accept Vatican 2 OR 1. Western Orthodoxy alone makes sense.
@Jack Frost Come back brother, come home to the Orthodox church and you will have many fathers, not one.
Elder Millennial born Catholic but seeking that one true church Jesus wants, help
Eternal memory, Kevin Allen. ✤
Memory Eternal, Kevin☦️❤️.
He is a True Priest of Christ. I Bow in reverence Fr Josiah. In reverence, for he expounds the True Dogma of the Church of Christ. Speaks the same way he believes, like our fathers, with the spirit in his Intelect and heart. A Faith that is not only Alive but moving in Action through the Energies of the Holy Spirit. Living in the World, but not from this World. Glory to the Holy Trinity now and ever for ever.
I love this interview it is so great and full of faith and information ❤🙏🙏🙏
Reasoned, thoughtful discussion, works every time it's tried
Outstanding and informative.
More than excellent. Hope you have more for us down the road. Blessings.
Im brazilian lutheran. Im knowing the faith ortoxa. This impressive all the modifications. I had already seen the difference between the time of retirement today. Thanks for your job, sorry my english.
Apparenlty Fr Josiah is immune to aging. He looks nearly identical today as he did 9 years ago.
Superbly erudite.
Thank you Father.
Excellent explanation and interview Fr. Josiah.
so thankful to this interviewer being so respectful
Kevin Allen looks just like billy Joel
Lol
Thank You Father for all u do!
Glory to Christ forever and ever. Amen.
I am a Coptic Orthodox Egyptian from Jewish decent .. have done lots of studies of different Christians denominations !!
Came to this conclusion :
Certainly , There are true Christians followers lovers of Christ in every church , Apostolic or reformed ..
The Lord is able to reach out to any honest heart seeking Him every where , every church and in every generation ..
There are strengths and weaknesses in every church but in the big picture , all the true Christians from any church are united in the Faith and in the
Body of Christ .. as many different children for the same Father 🙏🏼
I pray that we all recognize our unity in Christ , respect each other differences in practicing our faith and pray for one another 🙏🏼
Some are misguided, not their fault. The Orthodox Church is The One True Church.
The coptics are unfortunately non chalcedonian and in schism from the Orthodox Church!
This is an excellent interview, very enlightening. Thank you for making it available on TH-cam.
How does one find assurance, peace, joy when one is constantly trying to earn salvation? Wouldn't there be a constant worry if you're doing enough to be saved? I'm asking this honestly, as a protestant.
youtube.com/@living_orthodox?si=kmdKICwG3pAk0H0v
I hope this helps 🙏🏽☦️
Hello my friend. I am not the correct person to be writing this (I never studies theology), but I would like to share my understanding if it can help you in any way. Forgive me for the long comment.
In Orthodoxy, salvation is not seen as something to be earned. Rather, salvation is understood to be communion with God. Can someone earn communion with a loved one? If it's a healthy relationship than the answer is of course not! This communion can be accepted or rejected. When we are in communion with the Lord then we are in paradise. We are in Heaven. Unfortunately, sin separates us from our Creator, and since we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, none of us can re-establish this communion on our own.
However, God loves people very much. In His love for humanity He has sent His only-begotten Son Jesus Christ to become a human being and become the bridge from earth to Heaven. Through His sinless life, death, and resurrection Jesus has become the gate, and the Way to the Father. Nevertheless, Jesus says that the gate is narrow and the Way is difficult (“Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able." Luke 13:24 NKJV). Not because He is making it difficult for us, but because we have many enemies - earthly and spiritual - who are trying to prevent us from returning to our Heavenly Father's arms.
We shouldn't be constantly worried because it is God who wants us to be with Him for eternity (“Do not fear, little flock, for it is your Father’s good pleasure to give you the kingdom." Luke 12:32 NKJV). What we must do is humbly walk the narrow path, and the Lord will support us by His grace in proportion to our Faith ("For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God," Ephesians 2:8 NKJV). Grace in Orthodoxy is understood to be God's very action (His energies) in our lives. Like a child being supported by his father, we put in a little effort and the Lord supports it and does far more than we ever could by our own strength. As long as we are seeking God we shall find Him through Christ who is the Way.
I apologize if this was confusing or clunky. I am not very good at expressing ideas. I had to write several drafts of this comment. I don't like arguing with people about these topics, but if it helps you understand the Orthodox position more than I am very glad! Thank you for reading this, and I wish you all the best! God bless you and your family! :)
Memory eternal Kevin Allen
Eye opening! Thank you!
I've been looking into Orthodoxy. I came to faith 3 years ago in a Protestant environment. I've been eating up everything I can find on the topic of theology ever since. This video really nails down several of the problems I'm experiencing with Protestantism.
1. That the theology is unresolved and constantly changing, indeed often to the whims of secularism.
2. That there is no real reason to do anything within Protestant dogma, because sanctification happens instantly and completely at the moment of death. I cannot give a valid explanation why I should stay alive, other than a vague notion that God wants it that way. Which is fair enough as a reason, but it is not an explanation.
3. That no one seems to take worship seriously. I actually feel discouraged from attempting to take it more seriously because I'd be critiqued for it, as if I'd be pretending to be better than them, and I don't even know how to do it properly anyway so I'd not only be alone in it, but also clueless.
4. That every Protestant denomination seems to dislike the majority of other denominations, and even dislike the reformers who were allegedly wrong about pretty much everything. I think the denomination I'm involved with right now officially qualifies as "liberated from liberated from the reformed" or something like that. I just consider it non-denominational for convenience's sake.
I am cautiously optimistic that Orthodoxy could be the solution to all these problems, without being heretical (unlike Roman-Catholicism which I simply cannot accept even with all my attempts towards goodwill). I don't know yet what that is going to mean for me specifically. For now I'm still exploring Orthodoxy to figure out what it is and isn't, and have not raised the topic in my church yet.
Same. May God's love and guidance show us the truth.
Very enlightening discussion! Thank you for posting it.
Father,thank you for your explanation of How,when, and where
the Orthodox Church became.
This is so so good.
I’m going to listen to this again
This book is one I've had recommended to me for Protestant converts to Orthodoxy. My church has a wonderful library (and the very best librarian!) and they've got several copies there, and they sell it in our church bookstore (it's quite popular, apparently). I cannot wait to dive into it.
Great stuff. One mild thought though. When they were drafting the articles to present to Zwingli at Marlberg, Luther wanted Zwingli to affirmed that he was chewing Christ with his teeth. At 1:04 it is said that Luther didn’t affirm Christ being literally in the elements, but if his statements at Marlberg are anything to go by, he did actually affirm a literal real presence. He definitely did affirm this also in his large catechism.
Yeah, as I understand from the lutheran confessions, lutherans condemn a 'capernaic' understanding that the communicant eats, digests, and excretes the flesh and blood of Christ. However, 'is means is' and God does what He says, so we are left with the wonderous mystery of the Eucharist.
This leads to lutherans describing the eucharist with all dative prepositions (in, with, under, over, around, throughout, etc.) emphasising the true, real, and actual, physical presence of Christ's glorified body and blood for forgiveness, everlasting life and union with Him, without denying the existence of the bread and wine. Truly a mystery.
I absolutely love this
and love that he got Billy Joel
to do the interview 😅
This is a groundbreaking listen. I love this
You know it's funny when your videos and I didn't even realise you were the author of this book I love so much it was such a breeze to read. It's kind of funny father I didn't even but look at your name as the author I just consumed it. You did wonderful jobthank you so much Father!
This interview is fantastic!
Thank you for this interview and information. Very well done. :)
As former Roman Catholics raised in that church, my wife (of Italian descent) and I (named after Ireland's heroic patriotic martyr Robert Emmet) joyfully left it for the very reasons Father Josiah Trenham states in the first 8 minutes! This was no casual task for me, an Irish-American with substantial scholarly knowledge of Ireland's amazing conversion from Celtic paganism by Rome's missionary, then the equally astounding adoption of Desert Father's tradition Monasticism starting in 530 that she gave back to the British Isles and the continent by her great missionary movement that followed. And in more recent times her heroic priests served the conquered Irish during centuries of fierce persecution by England. Why then would we flee the Roman Church for Orthodoxy? To GO BACK to the original Church that Saint Patrick brought to Ireland when it became obvious that Rome had abandoned the Catholic Church in corruption and the pursuit of geopolitical power and idle scholasticism speculations displacing dogma. Sorry, Rome: repent your lordly ways, your predatory clergy, the incessant innovations displacing Church tradition and dogma, and the embrace of geopolitical power. The Church founded by Christ does not know you - and we have learned to insist on that Church that came to us long ago.
Wow your comments amongst many are amazing ☦️🙏🏽
I love the part around 58 minutes to 1:01 about liturgy vs extemporaneous prayer and how valuable written prayers are for the church. Listening to an extemporaneous prayer, you have to do three things simultaneously to make the prayer your own - almost impossible to do.
The Book of Common Prayer seems to preserve the idea that we are, by faith, pressing towards a final salvation with both fear and trembling.
Indeed, the BCP as well as the 39 Articles and the Books of Homilies. It’s too bad many ‘Anglicans’ have abandoned their reformed catholic heritage.
Nobody could have better explanation why come into Orthodox than those who was lost in other belief before.
What I really like about the Protestants, as a Greek Orthodox Christian, is that they speak English. My Greek is not that good and I've spent decades in my Church not having the foggiest idea of what was being said or chanted. Now it's 50-50 sort of but I find the Greek distracting. However, Orthodox Chant like at Pascha is clearly beautiful and moving. I'm trying to say, the Protestants brought me back to my Orthodox Christian Faith. I sincerely appreciate there presence which helped me back to faith and Orthodoxy.
All branches of one tree
I appreciate his humility and respect for protestants
Love this, answered a lot of questions and explained them well.
The only thing is when Fr Trenham was asked about praying how to reformers viewed praying ‘to’ the Saints and asking for the intercession of the Saints and the Mother of God. When Fr J Trenham answered his answer was in regards to praying ‘for’ the dead after they die. Although what he said was good it had nothing to do with the intercession of the Saints. I’ve tried to see if any of Fr Trenhams videos cover this matter as I really want to know what he says on this as this is one of the biggest hurdles for reformers.
If someone could point me in the direction where he explains this I will be very greatful.
Thanks
One of many+
Righteous Job the Long-Suffering (1000 - 300 BC)
If there shall be an angel speaking for him . . . He shall have mercy on him, and shall say: Deliver him, that he may not go down to corruption" (Job xxxiii, 23).
Book of Tobit (~ 200 - 100 BC)
When thou didst pray with tears… I [Archangel Raphael] offered thy prayer to the Lord. (Tobit xii, 12)
St. John the Evangelist (+101)
And another angel came, and stood before the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given to him much incense, that he should offer of the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar, which is before the throne of God. And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascended up before God from the hand of the angel. (Apoc., viii, 3, 4)
orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/invocationofsaints.aspx
Also
in the Book of Enoch, a composite work dating from the first century. Thus in Enoch 9:3 we read, “To you, the holy ones of heaven, the souls of men make their suit, saying, ‘Bring our cause before the Most High’”. Later on, in Enoch 39:5 we find the same idea that those in heaven were praying for those on earth: “My eyes saw the dwellings [of the holy] with His holy angels and they petitioned and interceded and prayed for the children of men”. In Enoch 99:3, the righteous on earth are told to “raise your prayers as a memorial, and place them as a testimony before the angels, that they may place the sin of the sinner for a memorial before the Most High”. In Enoch 104:1 we read that “in heaven the angels remember you for good before the glory of the Great One”.
From this we learn that the angels brought the prayers of those on earth to God (Revelation 8:3-4)-exactly as the Book of Enoch said. Regarding the departed Christians, we learn that they are with Christ and are being comforted by Him for their struggles on earth (Revelation 7:13f).
All Glory be to God+++
The simple answer is the saints are alive. They were Christians here on Earth, and have taken their God-given place at His side. Why would you not be able to speak to an eternal being who rules with God? And yes, by extension, this also applies to Angels, the Theotokos, and your departed family. Remember, the reason Christ was incarnated was to conquer death. He did it. All humans are eternal.
such an amazing book!!!
Thank the LORD for the reformation .
Soli Deo Gloria
Thank you father
Very very important and informative
I like how the affectation (Father’s “accent”) lessens when speaking with this interviewer.
In my opinion it is a matter between Christ and an individuals soul; not what church you belong to; but God bless of all these differing Christians.
I would like to become Orthodox but I cannot shake my Protestant convictions. I adopted as much of Orthodoxy as I could (theology, going to church), but short of becoming Orthodox. I am probably stuck forever an inquirer.
I spent 11 months as an inquirer 2 years and 9 months as a catechumen. Im now 9months in the Church. Admittedly the hardest decision ive made (being a liberal nihilist type before) but the best decision by far. Keep going my friend.
@@NeoNoir_94 thank you brother, glad to hear you made it to the Church
I was an inquirer for 2 years (between Orthodoxy and Catholicism). I get it.
There are still some issues I have, but I have decided that I am but a sinful man. I will fall on the teachings of what thousands of Christians have wrestled with before me.
But not matter what, whether I add prayers to saints, whether I change my view on Baptism and the other Sacraments, whether I believe Orthodoxy is the True Church;
Christ, and my faith in Him, is what saves. And I take great comfort in that.
@@MajorMustang1117 absolutely bro, you're in a Church that will take good care of you regardless.
Thank you, a Catholic friend 🥰
As a confirmed Lutheran, I confess that I was very rebellious towards the church and a Lutheran minister Dr. Bossie reigned in that rebelliousness and produced a Christian man. I'm not convinced that any other church could have done this
This bringing the rebel to Christ Jesus was in my opinion was what Luther was to his core
What do you do when there isn’t an Orthodox Church anywhere near your residence? I would love to visit one as I’m in the curiosity and wonder mindset right now. Grew up in a southern baptist church (now 58 years old) and have attended a contemporary baptist church for the past 14 years. I’ve been questioning so much about it the past few months.
Drive
Interesting, John Frame's professor was Cornelius Van Til, who - apart from Leibniz's Cosmological Argument - holds the only brand of apologetics I still appeal to after studying all of them coming out of 15 years of Anti-theism: presuppositional apologetics. We (as Orthodox) could do every well developing our presuppositions and showing their victory in the world.
Have you heard Jay Dyers TAG presuppositional argument for Orthodox Christianity?
I saw your other post here talking about coffee hour. I'm sure autism doesn't help, but your main issue is emotional unhealth. Search for a podcast called "The Last Symptom". As your brother in Christ, I believe this would aid you greatly.
I second Jay Dyer. His grasp on Orthodox theology is staggering. Beyond learning apologetics, you could stand to learn some Christology. I noticed you say that you find the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception convincing. It is logically necessary-- if you believe in Original Sin and the inherently evil nature of humanity. That is not the position of the Orthodox Church. It is also worth noting that the Latin church has recently admitted to 90-95% of Orthodox beliefs being correct. That includes accepting the teachings of St Gregory Palomas over St Thomas Aquinas. If both the East and the West do not accept Thomism, why do you?
Whilst reading Luther i kept saying; "Why didn't he just join the Orthodox!" Turns out he did try, but obviously had some big differences in theology.
@@hYpNoXiDe Yes he was in talks with the Orthodox church which i was fascinated by. (see bellow) Also i wouldn't be so sure that he failed, what ever it is you mean by failed. :)
blogs.ancientfaith.com/orthodoxyandheterodoxy/2017/10/03/lutherans-greek-church/
@@hYpNoXiDe I think you are confused friend, i dont recall suggesting they did? Perhaps you could point out where i suggested they did. God bless.
@@hYpNoXiDe I think we have had a misunderstanding between us and I was confused by your reply; I actually thought you was a troll. I think I understand what you mean now though.
so It seems right to me that by opening up a dialogue with the Orthodox church Luther(ans) was attempting to enter into orthodoxy after being excommunicated. However Luther after his talks with the Orthodox came away due to a lack of agreement regards to theology. Luther was not trying to create a new movement with new belief's like Calvin or the second generation reformers with the Orthodox, Instead he was trying to reform the Roman Catholics back to the more platonic, old Rome faith now under threat by the Renaissance and Aristotle.
So it is erroneous to assume that Luther was trying to bring the orthodox to a new way of thinking, his focus was on reforming , or should I say reverting back Catholicism. I think from my research it seems right to say that Luther wanted to see if he could join orthodoxy but disagreement lead to that ending. It actually acuminated with the Orthodox church saying if they want to talk about theology then don't write back. I think the orthodox church then failed Luther and could have shepherded the reformers towards Orthodoxy.
Say that say that Holy Man Josiah... People must here this
Excellent. So informative and accurate.
If faith means loyalty and trust, then you will obviously do works if you have it. Only when faith means simply belief, can you possibly justify having it and then not doing works, by not being loyal, even though you know you should be. With the proper understanding of faith, it should be enough.
Father Josiah Trenham story about leaving Protestantism for Orthodoxy is very compelling. I'm considering Orthodoxy but I don't know how to go about it.
Go to the catholic church. One true church!
Ghetto Tarzan ; Try different orthodox churches and find what’s best for you!
St. Andrews Orthodox in Riverside is having an Express Greek Fest day celebration May 18, 2019 from 11a.m.to 7p.m.
“Come and see”. Visit Saturday evening Vespers services. Ask questions. Attend Liturgies and soak it all in. Take your time and pray. Peace.
@@windstorm1000 This makes entirely no sense at all historically! There was a Pentarchy not an Enatarchy!
Father Josiah, please reprint this book. It is impossible to find! ☦️🙏🏻
It’s on audible if you’re ok with listening rather than having a physical copy (until you can get one)
@@jaredvizzi8723 thank you! I’ll check it out-I was able to get a copy. I think it’s been reprinted. It’s excellent! Blessed Lent to you ☦️
maybe it's time to think about the transition to Orthodoxy.
For a dude from SoCal Trenham has an interesting accent I cant place.
interesting video.
Luther's view of the Eucharist was most assuredly believed by Lutherans. It is enshrined in the Book of Concord, Small and Large Catechisms and the Smalcald Articles. It is represented, likewise, in the Augsburg Confession and the Formula of Concord. Fr. Trenham is wrong on this point.
Memory Eternal
You misunderstand 'by faith alone'. Works prove you've got faith. Salvation comes THROUGH faith:
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast (Ephesians 2,8-9 NIV).
You're not going to earn your salvation THROUGH works but it is by God's GRACE THROUGH FAITH, and someone's faith is demonstrated "by" his "deeds" (James 2,18). This is because "faith" and "actions" work "together" (James 2,22). If you earn/work for your salvation or "if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly" (Galatians 2,21).
Inception of Freedom and faith without works is dead.
@@Val.Kyrie.: Yes, but it won't add anything to your salvation. That's all because of Christ's work. Works are a demonstration of your salvation. That's what I mean and I think James also meant.
@@Zatoichi82 so you can live like the devil and it won't take anything away from your salvation?
@@olubunmiolumuyiwaNo. If you live like the devil, your faith is like that of the demons (James 2, 19). But if you TRUST in your WORKS for salvation your works must be perfect, i.e. not a single sin (2, 10). Which is impossible for a human being. Therefore live through faith, i.e. TRUST in Christ, and it will be reflected in your works (2, 18).
And if you sin, ask for forgiveness and it will be granted to you because of Christ's atoning work. But if you trust in your works, repent and ask for foregiveness because you trusted in yourself and not in Christ, and come to Christ and believe in his works and his righteousness. Surely God will not dismiss you.
@@Zatoichi82 Then what you are saying isnt Faith alone. It's faith that works.