Thank you so much for creating a platform for this interview, Mormon.ish. Dr. Murphy, thank you for taking the time to share your wisdom. Me and my family found so much value in this video.
At minute 23 really resonated with me on the topic of writing I’ve always felt since leaving the church recordkeeping and writing it was just another way for the church to keep us busy journaling, genealogy, temple work ward clerk, all things like this have to do with writing and recordkeeping. Thank you so much for this comment it kind of has validated, my feelings on this
Thank you Rebecca and Landon and a very special thanks to Doctor Thomas Murphy. Doctor Murphy your scholarship, research and dedication to education is amazing and greatly appreciated! Thank you!
As a critic of Mormonism, I found Dr. Murphy’s discourse and position on this topic very honest, applicable, and genuine. When I’m ready to present my critical research evidence that has never been publicly seen or previously discussed, I will very likely reach out to him first.
The 1,000 year old webpage is a perfect analogy! So anachronistic. Moroni’s promise is essentially assuming everyone can simply read and ponder his blog. 🤯
The first Sunday schools were formed to teach reading to the European illiterate masses who had to work six days of the week and and had neither the time nor the money to go to any type of school, as there was no such things as public education. It was public literacy that had a great influence on the industrial revolution, including the need for better printing presses to print more books and pamphlets, which meant more people wanted to learn and write to share old and new ideas, including novels, which caused people to want more books for entertainment and pleasure.
2 Nep 29:3 Never once stood out to me the significance of the word “Bible” being there. So, god told JS through his rock that word which would exist in the future and everyone would recognize it etc…why isn’t it that way with the other unique words like Deseret? Nephi heard the word “bible” and just rolled along like he already knew and understood the word so he just wrote it down…cause they probably had a reformed Egyptian word for “bible” already anyways…
My belief in the bom is that it is a fictional account. I believe there is much wisdom contained therein. However, such a belief is considered apostate. Therefore, there is no space within mormonism unless one believes that a fictional book is true! That only leaves to internal strife and disingenuous belief. It's not a healthy relationship for the soul!
You are not alone. Many Indigenous readers approach the Book of Mormon as figurative and allegorical. In my recent article, co-authored with Angelo Baca (Navajo/Hopi) and Simon Southerton, "Science and Fiction: Kennewick Man/Ancient One in Latter-day Saint Discourse" we outline and cite these Indigenous readings as an alternative to the Mesoamerican and Heartland settings. That essay is available for free on my Academia page (linked in the show notes).
I like Dr. Murphy, his lecture was simple so that a stupid silly blonde like me can easily understand what he is talking about. I think I'll go to Dillard's and pick out a smart fedora hat! Great Episode R & L
I listened to this entire episode with great interest, after following the dr. lundwall episodes in their entirety as well. I've also always been intrigued by Dr Murphy's theories that the Book of Mormon can be sourced to Upstate New York characters and locations, and I will be very interested in reading his full book when it comes out. After listening to this episode I immediately went out and pulled down the copy of David Cusick's history of the five nations to see the alleged connections between it and Joseph Smith's Book of Mormon, just as I had done with View of the Hebrews and the Late War. I was quite disappointed with what I found. The connections, if there are any, are very vague and subject to equally plausible alternative interpretations, such as the "Quetzalcoatl" explanation that true believing Mormons are likely to glom onto. Namely, that the similarities in BoM storyline and these indigenous myths and the visitation of the mysterious pre-columbian lawgiver (Jesus) are due to the fact that they all must derive in twisted form from "true story" that is related in the Book of Mormon. This is not to say that I believe this, on the contrary all I found in Cusick's history were some extremely loosely connected myths that related no more to Nephi and Laman then they did to Romulus and Remus. It took me a tremendous amount of stretching and Imagination to connect what I read in Cusick to anything in the Book of Mormon. If there is a smoking gun hidden in there I sure as heck couldn't find it.
I would encourage everyone to check out Cusick for themselves. I want to clarify that I am not suggesting that Joseph Smith plagiarized Cusick, only that he alluded to some of the stories that are there. I agree that the Quetzalcoatl narrative in Ethan Smith’s 1825 edition of the View of the Hebrews is another possible influence. For a comparison of E. Smith and Cusick with BoM, see my presentation “Quetzalcoatl, Jesus, and the Peacemaker Meet in New York” at last year’s MHA, available on my Academia page.
I don’t think Cusick’s, or any other text, is a “smoking gun.” My assessment is that Joseph Smith is the creative author of the BoM and that he drew broadly for ideas that he synthesized into a novel narrative. Iroquois culture is one place from which he drew, Cusick might have been one of his sources. The BoM mentions Oneida and Flint by name, refers to Iroquois cultural practices such burying weapons of war and represents Christ as a disillusioned Jesus killed by people across the salt water. These references are far more specific and locally grounded than anything in Mesoamerica or the Old World.
@@drtwmurphy Would that also be your response to Lori Taylor's "Joseph Smith + Handsome Lake = Wishful Thinking" blog post? It seems like she's refuting a "smoking gun" connection, while you are pointing out the multitude of potential influences surrounding J Smith in his formative years.
@@jeffkunce8501 I have identified several followers of Handsome Lake that may have interacted with Joseph Smith. While these individuals do not fit all of the details in the Vrooman narrative published by Lori Taylor, they are consistent with other earlier-less detailed-oral traditions connecting Iroquois with Joseph Smith. I think scholars should be more willing to consider these Indigenous narratives, but they need not do so uncritically. Again, there is no “smoking gun” in Cusick or anywhere else. The only place one is going to find a smoking gun is in a straw man.
![Wolfram Physics Project: Working Session Tuesday, Aug. 4, 2020 [Empirical Physical Metamathematics]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/VlqerIL2kl8/mqdefault.jpg)
Rebecca and Landon, you guys are killing it with your podcast episodes! 👏🏻
Thank you so much for creating a platform for this interview, Mormon.ish. Dr. Murphy, thank you for taking the time to share your wisdom. Me and my family found so much value in this video.
This podcast is a treasure. Thank you Rebecca, Landon, and Dr. Murphy!
At minute 23 really resonated with me on the topic of writing I’ve always felt since leaving the church recordkeeping and writing it was just another way for the church to keep us busy journaling, genealogy, temple work ward clerk, all things like this have to do with writing and recordkeeping. Thank you so much for this comment it kind of has validated, my feelings on this
Mormonism has to be the greatest detective story of all time.
Thanks Dr. Murphy, this fills in so many gaps in the origin of the details of the Book of Mormon!
Looking forward to this episode. Love the quality of Mormonish Pocast!
Thomas Murphy has some great new insights! It is an academic episode so let the learning begin!
Please thank Dr. Murphy this is very informative!
@@Concrete-p7o You’re welcome!
This info is so mind-blowing. Thank you all for your hard work and studies. Thank you for keeping us informed.
Thank you Rebecca and Landon and a very special thanks to Doctor Thomas Murphy. Doctor Murphy your scholarship, research and dedication to education is amazing and greatly appreciated! Thank you!
Dr. Murphy's research is amazing. I can't wait to read his book when it comes out.
I support Dr John Lundwall!! 😊👍🏻👏🏻
I sustain him as well!
As a critic of Mormonism, I found Dr. Murphy’s discourse and position on this topic very honest, applicable, and genuine. When I’m ready to present my critical research evidence that has never been publicly seen or previously discussed, I will very likely reach out to him first.
The 1,000 year old webpage is a perfect analogy! So anachronistic. Moroni’s promise is essentially assuming everyone can simply read and ponder his blog. 🤯
Oh, I just got to 58:00 and they basically said something like this. I should have watched the whole thing first. 😂
it's wonderful to listen to gentle souls like Dr lundwall and Dr Murphy talking about these interesting stories
love & greetings from Vienna, Austria
I’m gobsmacked! I really appreciated this episode. Thank you so much! Dr Murphy is Brilliant! 🫶
Yes both Dr. Murphy and Dr. Lundwall are top notch!
The first Sunday schools were formed to teach reading to the European illiterate masses who had to work six days of the week and and had neither the time nor the money to go to any type of school, as there was no such things as public education. It was public literacy that had a great influence on the industrial revolution, including the need for better printing presses to print more books and pamphlets, which meant more people wanted to learn and write to share old and new ideas, including novels, which caused people to want more books for entertainment and pleasure.
Thank you. The church doesn’t encourage thinking outside of the box (Mon-Mormonism). It so great to be able see academically outside the church’s box.
Summary quote from Dr. Murphy... "I think the Book of Mormon, it reaches about as close to impossibility as you can get."
Deeply appreciate this scholarship. Thanks.
This was fascinating! Thank you.
I am so enjoying this. Thank you all. 🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉
The Bible, the Quran, the Book of Mormon and the Bhagavad Gita, are some of the bloodiest books every written. They are replete with hate.
2 Nep 29:3
Never once stood out to me the significance of the word “Bible” being there. So, god told JS through his rock that word which would exist in the future and everyone would recognize it etc…why isn’t it that way with the other unique words like Deseret? Nephi heard the word “bible” and just rolled along like he already knew and understood the word so he just wrote it down…cause they probably had a reformed Egyptian word for “bible” already anyways…
Very enjoyable program..
Thank you for sharing.
This is so good! Loving it!❤️
My belief in the bom is that it is a fictional account. I believe there is much wisdom contained therein. However, such a belief is considered apostate. Therefore, there is no space within mormonism unless one believes that a fictional book is true! That only leaves to internal strife and disingenuous belief. It's not a healthy relationship for the soul!
You are not alone. Many Indigenous readers approach the Book of Mormon as figurative and allegorical. In my recent article, co-authored with Angelo Baca (Navajo/Hopi) and Simon Southerton, "Science and Fiction: Kennewick Man/Ancient One in Latter-day Saint Discourse" we outline and cite these Indigenous readings as an alternative to the Mesoamerican and Heartland settings. That essay is available for free on my Academia page (linked in the show notes).
I like Dr. Murphy, his lecture was simple so that a stupid silly blonde like me can easily understand what he is talking about.
I think I'll go to Dillard's and pick out a smart fedora hat!
Great Episode R & L
I am sure you will look very dapper in a Fedora Zak!
First time I explored BOM first thought was this is lifted from The Bible.
I listened to this entire episode with great interest, after following the dr. lundwall episodes in their entirety as well. I've also always been intrigued by Dr Murphy's theories that the Book of Mormon can be sourced to Upstate New York characters and locations, and I will be very interested in reading his full book when it comes out.
After listening to this episode I immediately went out and pulled down the copy of David Cusick's history of the five nations to see the alleged connections between it and Joseph Smith's Book of Mormon, just as I had done with View of the Hebrews and the Late War.
I was quite disappointed with what I found. The connections, if there are any, are very vague and subject to equally plausible alternative interpretations, such as the "Quetzalcoatl" explanation that true believing Mormons are likely to glom onto. Namely, that the similarities in BoM storyline and these indigenous myths and the visitation of the mysterious pre-columbian lawgiver (Jesus) are due to the fact that they all must derive in twisted form from "true story" that is related in the Book of Mormon.
This is not to say that I believe this, on the contrary all I found in Cusick's history were some extremely loosely connected myths that related no more to Nephi and Laman then they did to Romulus and Remus. It took me a tremendous amount of stretching and Imagination to connect what I read in Cusick to anything in the Book of Mormon. If there is a smoking gun hidden in there I sure as heck couldn't find it.
I would encourage everyone to check out Cusick for themselves. I want to clarify that I am not suggesting that Joseph Smith plagiarized Cusick, only that he alluded to some of the stories that are there. I agree that the Quetzalcoatl narrative in Ethan Smith’s 1825 edition of the View of the Hebrews is another possible influence. For a comparison of E. Smith and Cusick with BoM, see my presentation “Quetzalcoatl, Jesus, and the Peacemaker Meet in New York” at last year’s MHA, available on my Academia page.
I don’t think Cusick’s, or any other text, is a “smoking gun.” My assessment is that Joseph Smith is the creative author of the BoM and that he drew broadly for ideas that he synthesized into a novel narrative. Iroquois culture is one place from which he drew, Cusick might have been one of his sources. The BoM mentions Oneida and Flint by name, refers to Iroquois cultural practices such burying weapons of war and represents Christ as a disillusioned Jesus killed by people across the salt water. These references are far more specific and locally grounded than anything in Mesoamerica or the Old World.
Thank you so much for this comment and your research of the topic! Very valuable!
@@drtwmurphy Would that also be your response to Lori Taylor's "Joseph Smith + Handsome Lake = Wishful Thinking" blog post? It seems like she's refuting a "smoking gun" connection, while you are pointing out the multitude of potential influences surrounding J Smith in his formative years.
@@jeffkunce8501 I have identified several followers of Handsome Lake that may have interacted with Joseph Smith. While these individuals do not fit all of the details in the Vrooman narrative published by Lori Taylor, they are consistent with other earlier-less detailed-oral traditions connecting Iroquois with Joseph Smith. I think scholars should be more willing to consider these Indigenous narratives, but they need not do so uncritically. Again, there is no “smoking gun” in Cusick or anywhere else. The only place one is going to find a smoking gun is in a straw man.
Thank you Rebecca! I really like to listen to your intelligent insight!
Great stuff!! Brilliant!! This guy is a legend!! Thanks Rebecca & Landon!! 🙏🏻💪🏼😮💨🤟🏼🤌🏼
Now isn't most of The Bible allegorical?
American Bible Society. Were they the first JWs? Not sure...
As opposed to LDS apologists....