10:14 I took an anthropology class about the Incan culture and I was floored to learn there was no writings. They kept records by quipus, which are knotted ropes. This was the first time I ever considered that cultures didn’t write?! Crazy hey, but it is super interesting and there is so much evidence supporting the evolution of literacy etc
Thank you for this. Dr. Lundwall's insights are applicable beyond the Book of Mormon authenticity question and can illuminate any historical pre-literate society. This makes them especially worthwhile and interesting!
It is always hard to balance listening time with the time needed to fully cover a concept. We appreciate your willingness to hear the whole discussion! We are trying to pair down the time on future episodes but no guarantee! Thanks for listening!
I have watched it 3 times in the last 8 months. It is so valuable to see why written language for BOM was not possible us you see when language started, that the Tower of Babel could not have happened then immediately had language so the BOM revering to that is acronistic. I love a simple man yet it is so valuable to understand language and writing history
51:00 Concerning the sources of the Book of Mormon text: some research has been done in this field. I recommend the episodes on Mormon Stories with Thomas Murphy (ep 1645-1647, especially 1647) as well as with Randy Bell concerning the "Dartmouth Connection" (ep 1728), the theory that Hyrum Smith attended Moor's Indian Charity School and taught Joseph many things during his sickness after his leg surgery.
Interestingly enough we have connected Dr. Lundwall with both Thomas Murphy and Randy Bell and hope they can collaborate on some projects together! Thanks for the additional information!
I don't know how much better than episode one this could possibly be but I'm anxious to listen. It was a total paradigm shift for me to think about oral and literary cultures and how impossible the Book of Mormon is actual history. I have not believed it for several years, but it was all the other evidences and finally thinking like an adult that allowed me to dismiss it as history. I know it's exciting and all that, but can I ask you stimulated podcasters to not speak over one another - I don't want to miss a thing - please.
After the advent of the printing press in Europe, the first Sunday schools were not to teach religion, rather to teach reading and writing to the working class who only had Sundays for their leisure. It was then that Europe began to become a literary society, and then books and pamphlets could be printed in huge productions because there was a huge number of people who could read and write then. It was at this time that people could now write and share ideas. When people can read and write, their knowledge grows and the world of mystery shrinks. In fact, the word "education" means to lead out of. Out of what?: darkness and ignorance. The inference about Book-of-Mormon people is that they were enlightened; however, anthropological evidence does not support such a notion.
Can you imagine how heavy a tent large enough to house Lehi's family and retainers would be to carry, even with pack animals, which are not mentioned in his history? Also, can you imagine how heavy the brass plate must have been to carry along the trail for eight years, especially without pack animals.? How could Lehi have affored physically to bring along writing materials?
Well, that problem pales in comparison to the plight of the Jaredites spending 344 days in tiny submarines with all of their animals while sailing to the promised land. By the way, d'ya know why the Jaredite crossing took 344 days? They forgot to bring along a prophet, seer, and navigator.
I'm an Austrian never-mo just interested in such topics and 2-3h are my average length but if it's 6h that's fine with me: more to learn and it's a kind of trance anyway 😁🤘
Fantastic lectures (both 1 and 2). Have watched both a couple of times. There is so much great research being done now regarding aspects of Judaism and. Christianity. The key here (as Mr. Brophy alludes to in the first lecture) is the digital distribution of materials in the last 20 years. Now available to a wider research community than just the "faithful." Have just finished God: An Anatomy by Francesca Stavrapoulou, which deals a lot with pre-Torah Hebrew religion. Never in my early religious training would I imagine a Hebraic tribe as a dancing and oral society! Lundwall expands on these ideas so eloquently. Well done! A must view
Thank you for bringing Dr. Lundwall back so soon! And you are right, we want hours and hours more! I have a thought about verbs being more important than nouns in early ceremonies. In the very creation of language, verbs were more important than nouns because the verbs kept us alive. STOP! RUN! GO! These are the calls we still easily observe in other mammals and birds. A linguist told me there is a specific part of the brain that primarily files away our nouns. As we age, that part of the brain is vulnerable, and we start having to pause to recollect our nouns. (It is so aggravating!) Our verbs are more protected. I just thought that was interesting. It didn't occur to me then, but maybe the verbs are more protected because we had them first, and they are a deeper part of our language.
Very interesting. Our book club is reading a book The Unfolding of Language this month and this is an interesting tidbit for that discussion ! Thank you for sharing!
@calico. And in many languages the verb inheres the noun. I have read that in the Hebrew, the tense of the verb is all one (probably deriving from the Eternal Now concept). Maybe Dr. L. can advise?
If only Lundwall's two episodes would have been available to me at age 18 when I first read the Book of Mormon. It would have changed the course of my life. Lundwall's research can lay to rest all of the minutiae of LDS apologists' attempts to prove Book of Mormon historicity, with squabbles over horses, steel, names, DNA, etc. Because Lundwall's theory is all-encompassing, it proves the entire Book of Mormon is its own anachronism.
You must do the other three!!!! So informative and info that has not been told before. Love the fact based analysis. We have eternity so time doesn’t matter.
31:00 I liked the discussion about how a text based religion would encourage literacy. When you study the biography of Luther, you would exactly see this play out. After having translated the Bible into German, Luther pushed elementary school education for the general population so that they could read the Bible and the catechism, etc. However, i want to point out the gap in the timeline. While Judaism and Christianity were a religion of the book for a long time, this push for literacy only occurred with the Protestant reformation. This also implies that any discussion about literacy in the general population is an anachronism pre 1517.
Absolutely the best two hours plus. So grateful for you all. Timing is everything. I cannot thank you guys enough. Sharing the heck out of this. My friends have been loving this. Watching both videos many times. Wrapping my head around all this information. Crazy the makers of Mormonism thought they could pull this off. The diabolical agenda behind all this non sense is prayerfully on it's way. Totally can see evil completely behind this massive deception. How the world did so many of us fall for this bs.
This is the best two hours? Why? Life not too interesting that a critic of a text that teaches us to follow Christ and be good to one another? I guess people get their thrills by the strangest things. BTW who are these makers of Mormonism? Joseph Smith dictated the BoM. Period. That is the evidence of JS. If the BoM is fraudulent then there is no Mormonism. You will not determine fraud or not by these academic assumptions. They are assumptions and believe me the picture presented here is full of bias and incomplete scholarship. But, if yourself and others enjoy criticizing a book that preaches of Christ and gives us another testimony that the Lord is our Redeemer then that is just odd.
I thought the first video with Dr. John was amazing, this one is incredible! Cannot count the number of times my mind was blown tonight. Everything makes so much more sense! Looking forward to many more collaborations because this is ABSOLUTELY FASCINATING!
FWIW: the late Dr Ray Matheney, BYU Professor of MesoAmerican Anthropology stated to me and many others IN CLASS that there is ZERO evidence of Book of Mormon civilization in MesoAmerica. ZERO. This is what the late Dr Michael Coe, of Yale University, has also stated emphatically. Those who defend the opposing position need to bring real evidence forward. Hope is NOT evidence.
From UTLM: Dee F. Green, who at one time served as editor of the University Archaeological Society Newsletter, published at the church’s Brigham Young University, made it plain that archaeological evidence did not prove the Book of Mormon: "The first myth we need to eliminate is that Book of Mormon archaeology exists…. If one is to study Book of Mormon archaeology, then one must have a corpus of data with which to deal. We do not. The Book of Mormon is really there so one can have Book of Mormon studies, and archaeology is really there so one can study archaeology, but the two are not wed. At least they are not wed in reality since no Book of Mormon location is known with reference to modern topography. Biblical archaeology can be studied because we do know where Jerusalem and Jericho were and are, but we do not know where Zarahemla and Bountiful (nor any other location for that matter) were or are. It would seem then that a concentration on geography should be the first order of business, but we have already seen that twenty years of such an approach has left us empty-handed." (Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, Summer 1969, pp. 77-78)
I was raised Catholic but by age 12-13 I was having serious doubts. I know Mormons who were raised in it and are in their 30’s and still practicing. I am baffled as to how any thinking person can really believe it. Not just Mormonism, the Bible too.
This discussion of Dancing to interact with the Natural World makes me curious about the Dances practiced by the Native American People. Can we see an episode (or more) that might explain those beliefs and practices?
I think if one applies the idea of human development to how societies/civilizations develop-- that there are certain parallels (physical, emotional, intellectual, etc.)-- the concepts the doctor is presenting might make more sense. It seems he's looking at markers that civilizations share and comparing and contrasting them.
I grew up Mormon, most of my family is Mormon. Even as a child it just didn't pass the smell test, 600 year old gut gets all the animals on one boat? Really? Growing up I loved dinosaurs and learning about ancient cultures, I was walking distance from library and was there often. But then Sunday would come and the stories didn't mesh. It wasn't one moment in lost my faith but I think the no turning back was learning about mythology in 6th 7th grade "Why is what they believe a myth but what I believe is a religion?" Once a couldn't square that circle I was done.
It is my understanding that in the Holy of Holy of the Jewish Temple there was not an idol as was the case in all other temples of the nations. Biblical history indicates the first year of 21 year old Zedekiah’s reign was 597 BC. He was appointed by Nebuchadnezzar after he took all of Jerusalem captive including the King, prophets (except Jeremiah), merchants, craftsmen, Priests and their sacred scrolls, all objects of value out of the city etc. Only the poor were left and the administration. The Temple was not destroyed until 11 years later when 32 year old Zedekiah rebelled. During this time the prophet Ezekiel was in Babylon and the prophet Jeremiah was in Jerusalem. In 586 BC. the Temple and city were destroyed and the remnant also taken captive including Zedekiah.
Perhaps the best podcast ever since it dissects the very essence of the Church - BOM, visions, inaccuracies, anachronisms, social-cultural milieu vs Smith's simplistic fantasy. BUT I do wish there was more structure / time management. Few can sit through hours of this with all the personal stories, side tracks, irrelevant comments, repetitions, etc. Much of it seems like filler which is a tragedy because John's work demonstrates the impossibility of so many LDS assumptions. Good luck.
Dr. Lundwall is amazing. Wondering if he discusses the issue re: the word 'plates' at any point (with y'all in private or otherwise). We call flat parts of books that show words "pages." "Plates", on the other hand, are parts of armor. Ancient armor was made of smallish plates riveted to bands of metal that were used to form and hold together the small plates to a larger helmet, breast-PLATE (and other parts of armor, I suppose). Plates are not part of books.
I believe there starting to say it’s a revelation not a translation so regardless of whatever was on the plates it’s what god wanted written!! Thank you for the podcast!
Yep, that's the same apologetic they use to defend the Book of Abraham. That theory means that Joseph didn't even need the golden plates or the Egyptian papyrii to come up with those productions.
@@mormonishpodcast1036 Another "ACT OF VIOLENCE". Loved that; PERFECT DESCRIPTION. (My reference is to your pod with Brits in which on described Excommunication as an "A of V."). In context of THIS cast, Dr. L. seems to knock the bowling pins from those who propose the loose translation as justification validation of verity of bom and thus of all practices/doctrine continuously deriving therefrom.
Ahhh but we know it won’t even have an impact. Too many people will hang to the smallest thread of Hope needing the church to be true…each of us has our own myths we have to hold on to and the church is that myth for many people. All we can and hope to do is share the information so people can make an informed decision. Thanks for listening.
@@mormonishpodcast1036 that's so true. Ive never minded people believing in whatever they need to, I just hate the truth claims that are in fact not true
@@TrevorThatBandanaGuy Yes. And especially when they force themselves & their ways upon others. And they do. They do. And the whole world knows THEY DO! (just as in Cody, WY)
On the southern Utah picture holding a head I see the sun on the rock shaping a side view of a face and the nose points down to the drawing. Once you see it you can't unseen it.
Joseph smith never said meso was a location in the Book of Mormon. My family had the Milton R Hunter book “ancient America and the Book of Mormon.” I traveled several times to the Yucatán and saw absolutely no correlation with anything in the Book of Mormon. I’ve been inactive for 30 years and Understand the General authorities including Joseph aren’t infallible. But the text of the Book of Mormon has too much evidence supporting it and I have never had the impression that there was something in it that was fraudulent. I’ve been studying the Heartland model and things are starting to fall into place. It’s a shame so many people have erred in explaining facets of it. You call them lies. I call them well-meaning mistakes.
Dr. Lundwall: At 1:34, do you mean they are "taking heads" as in killing people in ritual? Who kills who? Is the person to be killed supposed to feel it is an honor? Is that "trophy head" a real head? A man or a woman?
I stumbled upon this and it's a topic that interests me. Sadly, there's nothing here but empty words with no meaning. Explain the Hopewell and Adena and how they don't correspond to the Book or Mormon societies. There seems to be a remarkable correlation.
The Hopewell and Adena have nothing to do with Nephites and Lamanites and had no written language pre Columbus. This is absolutely addressed in this series…there was no writing in North America pre-Columbus let alone in 600 BC. North America is an impossible location for a literate Nephite nation…period!
When your lips are moving, you are fibbing. Grow up. Your question was Disingenuous. You know exactly what you are doing. You even admit in your description "nuanced".
@@madogg152 what lame comments. You can verify everything said in the podcast from academic sources independent of the presenter or the hosts. "If a faith will not bear to be investigated, if its preachers and professors are afraid to have it examined; their foundation must be very weak." -Elder George A. Smith, Journal of Discourses, v. 14, p. 216 “Faith, as well intentioned as it may be, must be built on facts, not fiction -- faith in fiction is a damnable false hope.” -Thomas Edison The information presented in the podcast relegates the Book of Mormon to the land of fiction. The keystone has been removed.
I don't pound sand or piss in the Wind. Its a waste of my time and talents. And most import I can't have a LOGICAL discussion with LIARS. Satan doesn't fight a war he has already won. KEEP UP THE FIGHT!!!!!!!!!!@@GM-ei6mo
And yet no matter what the devil does the church continues to grow daily the faith of the people is strong my testimony of the truth is unshaken You say Mormonism I say Kingdom leaving the kingdom of God Q what kingdom do you belong to now?
@MRRANDOMZ11 the only places where the church is seeing growth are places that don’t have access to information, information like that presented in the podcast. You can fact check any part of the podcast from academic sources. Just because it challenges what you believe doesn’t make it untrue or “lies.” “Faith, as well intentioned as it may be, must be built on facts, not fiction -- faith in fiction is a damnable false hope.” -Thomas Edison The information presented in the podcast means the Book of Mormon is fiction. All the data from the book itself indicate it was written by someone with a 19th century world view. It’s all right there in the text.
Here's my theory on the Book of Mormon's origin: The golden plates lay hidden, deep in Joseph's mind. Until he found cousin Oliver with whom he could co-write. The record starts with Nephi, a studly lad of yore. But if you make it past that part, the rest is one big bore!
"Nothing and nobody gets through 2 Nephi." This was said by a soldier, in a faith prompting story, in which he credited the BOM with saving his life! Someone shot at him but the bullet lodged in his copy of the BOM, stopping at 2 Nephi.)
Great podcast! Very informative and educational. May I say Rebecca. You do not look a day over 40! You are a very beautiful lady and a great host to boot!
There are a lot of believing Jews and Christians who don’t feel the need to think their scriptures are 100% literal truth, in order to find the spiritual ideas and traditions that they find uplifting. I hope that as Mormonism matures, more LDS people can come to view their scriptures this way. 1:59:16 Of course. the Lammanite leaders HAD to be dissenting Nephites. Figures.
I think LDS people can however, the leader ship will never authorize that because their prophetic calling is based on this having to be literal. But I wholeheartedly agree with your assessment. Thank you for listening.
The problem with the BOM is that Joseph Smith wrote it as a hoax, in order to sell books and draw in converts to his newly-founded fake religion. Since everything about Mormonism's origins is fake, the "spiritual ideas and traditions" within the BOM do not add value to the cause of Christianity.
I thought it was interesting that the book of mormon claims that adam was writing and passing down those writings. Ther could be some apologetics that may justifythe timing on 600 bce vs 500 bce when the tora appears… but Adam? 😂
How I love and cherish the Book of Mormon. It is such a precious gift in my life. It brings me faith in Jesus Christ, hope and joy. It brings me closer to our Lord Jesus Christ, and helps me desire to be more like Christ. It helps me see others a little more through Heaven’s eyes. It causes within me a desire to be more kind, patient, forgiving, and to put the Lord first in my life. What a wonderful Book the Book of Mormon is! No wonder Satan tries to attack it every chance he gets… he hates anything that causes our faith in Christ to grow, he hates anything that brings hope and peace. He hates all things that turn our hearts and desires towards God. 💕☀️
Your personal belief is not evidence for the Book of Mormon and lack of evidence is not Satan. If the Book of Mormon is historical there would be evidence otherwise it did not occur. I am happy you find peace in the book and you should follow it if it makes you a better person but that doesn’t make it true or historical.
You can tell he's an academic because he's trying to fit his lecture into a given time slot. He doesn't realize he has probably never held a more captive audience. This stuff is so good. I wonder, if tears are a divine substance because it was water coming from the head, how did they view vomiting?
And the Bible has a completely different origin , the book of Mormon, like other books are connected in alot of ways that you'd be surprised. Case in point. Mormonism is about like taking Goliath lines and then extrapolate that into Gil who was Goliath is all of a sudden captain Moroni, fallen angels . Same with Nephi, same with zen Buddhism, that's gils brother in this lifetime the same as when Goliath got slayed . Now that zen Buddhism is actually connected to mormonism by one of them being goliatbs brother . In the real time today , then you do some more research and eazelbaubis associated with the sons of belial , sons of worthlessness, that's who Mormons know as Moroni.
The main argument is that you cannot undo civilization advancements. E.g., if Nephite culture had horse riding, then sooner or later they would trade horses with surrounding tribes, and these cultures would take over horse domestication as well. E.g., the Chinese writing system was adapted by the Japanese, who ended up with a threefold writing system to accommodate their grammar. You do not find any cultural traces of Nephite culture in any Native American tribe, which would be natural if they lived among each other. Similarly, ancient America didn't have olive trees, which were brought to America by the Spanish settlers (cf. Wikipedia). This means that the elaborate simile of the olive tree makes no sense as soon as the first generation of Near East Jews died out. If Lehi brought olive trees to the Americas with them, then you have to explain why the species has not survived in the wild to this day, similar to horses which didn't exist. You cannot undo these things, neither plants, animals nor cultural achievements die or vanish without a trace.
Too many assumptions as the basis of your arguments. I love discussions but when you state a theory and call it fast, you lose credibility. Too many assumptions and guesses about what ancient languages say when there is truly nobody around anymore who speaks those languages. It doesn’t happen backwards… Then why do we have so many ruins? Where did those people go? We can see people going backwards in our own society even as so much of our civilization is growing.
If by assumptions, you mean sound peer reviewed archaeological and anthropological science you would be correct that this argument is based on assumptions. Nobody can know for certainty exactly how these cultures behave however, their art, their buildings, their language, their customs and their ancestors all give us a clue into how they would have acted. The models may not be 100% but they certainly aren’t 0% which is what the Book of Mormon archaeology is based on. It is the proponents of the Book of Mormon, who have the burden of proof to show that the Nephite culture existed, and there is absolutely zero archaeological or anthropological or linguistic or DNA evidence to corroborate the story that they tell. The assumptions come in when you believe the culture existed that wrote a book that was translated by a 14 year old boy, using a hat and a stone telling the story of a people in a geography that no one can locate speaking the Hebrew language which never existed in the Americas raising crops and domesticated animals which never did exist in the Americas, and which would have continued to exist despite the destruction of these people and yet someone follows that book to lead them in their life decisions. Yes, some cultures can decline. However, technology does not go backwards if the Nephites had horses so it would all of their neighbors if draft animals existed in the Americas, they would not disappear without a trace. If the Nephites had wheat and barley, and the other crops described in the book of Mormon, those crops would still exist in the Americas. Everyone would’ve grown them. The food chain would’ve been shared among neighbors. No culture exist in a vacuum, and then he fights would’ve been the most technologically advanced civilization. Their neighbors would’ve learned from them would’ve shared with them would’ve traded with them. That footprint would not have disappeared, just like it didn’t disappear with the Romans, the Persians, the Assyrians, or any other civilization that has disappeared the assumptions that you talk about our that civilization could exist in a vacuum with no impact on anyone around them, and yet be the most technologically advanced civilization in all of the Americas and that it’s just impossible. We are glad that you enjoy a discussion as we do but please point out exactly what that was said is an assumption so that we can address those items as we are happy to improve our model when facts are provided that contradict it. We welcome a challenge to our arguments and thank you for listening!
"Then why do we have so many ruins? Where did those people go?" Are you referring to MesoAmerican ruins? If so, the descendants of the Mayans who built those great cities and temples in the Classic Period from 200 to 900 AD still exist in the area. Great civilizations come and go. For example, the descendants of the complex civilization that built the great Egyptian cities, temples, pyramids, and tombs, still live there. They didn't disappear without a trace. The religious traditions that produced the pyramids etc. simply died out. Later generations of course didn't bother to demolish all of the old ruins, so they're still there.
People don't believe the lies of these apostates who are doing Satan's work! Satan can't seem to leave the church alone! And, these evil people are doing his work! If you want to know the real truth, then listen to much more enlightened and much more truthful podcasts by Rod Mildrum!!!
Please tell us what credentials Rod Meldrum has! It seems that all of the apologetic “experts” are self proclaimed archeologists who have no training. I believe Rod sold culinary products. If you want to get your archeological and anthropological information from a highly trained culinary products CEO go ahead. We’ll stick with professors and peer reviewed sources.
Why should you find any scriptures or paintings of a people who were hunted down and killed, a people who went extinct? It says they went extinct.They themselves had rebelled and fallen away, why would there be anything left. You have to judge the book of Mormon by what it actually says and not by what you want it to say.
The people from about every culture in archeology have gone extinct!!! The Mayan’s don’t exist, the Assyrians, the Babylonians, the Romans…all gone!!! But the Nephites had wheat, barley, domesticated animals, writing, buildings, etc. These don’t disappear when the people die and crops and animals don’t just completely disappear from a continent leaving no trace.
This is only debunked by every civilization ever. Come to Europe and dig a hole, you will find remnants of ancient civilizations. Along the Rhine, you will find remnants of Roman civilization in every other construction site. Why would there be Roman murals, statues, vases, heating systems, hot tubs, fast food restaurants if this civilization has long died out? Similarly, you will find the cultural heritage of Roman culture in contemporary cultures. Latin loan words, wine culture, the judicial system, irrigation, etc. are based on Roman culture. Your argument is utter nonsense.
Duh, according to the story, the "Lamanites" who exterminated the "Nephites" were descended from common Hebrew ancestors. For one group of people to be able to exterminate another, they have to have similar technology, weaponry, etc. Meaning, if the Nephites had smelted metal swords, spears, bows and arrows, horses and chariots, written language etc., then the Lamanites would have those as well. And the conquering Lamanites would have still maintained that technology when the Spaniards arrived in the Americas in the 1500s. But there is ZERO evidence of any such cultures existing anywhere in the Pre-Columbian western hemisphere. There are many stone stele, wall paintings, etc. which tell the story of the Mayan people who lived in the same area at the same time as the alleged "Book of Mormon people." We know all about Mayan kings, wars, culture, etc. But we can find NO evidence of the "Book of Mormon people" in those areas.
Nobody is attacking a religion. We are attacking the historical claims of a religion that has invented a myth story which they claim as truth even though the evidence overwhelmingly proves it’s falsehood. WHO or what people choose to believe is up to them but when a religion lies about those truths and then tries to hide those truths from their members that is unconscionable and the members have a duty to expose that misinformation. That is exactly what we as members of this religion are doing.
I love these ideas. So interesting. I think this could be received as racist by some. I don't think the doc is racist but there is something that is itching there. Am I crazy?
He's describing how societies develop ideas and technology. And anachronisms in the Book of Mormon. How would that be considered racist? Joseph Smith was a racist and this is a critique of his absurd ideas. Maybe that's what's itchy?
John studies Native societies for a living. It is his passion and love!!! Attempting to portray a society as it actually was should never be considered racist.
The racism begins when judging a people. Ancient American cultures were amazing for their time and had deep wisdom concerning nature and the cosmos. The main statement of the show is that these amazing civilizations have not been in any contact with Nephite civilization, because you would necessarily see an impact, an imprint if they had. You do not unlearn and undo cultural achievements. E.g., humans would not abandon horses once they domesticate them, until they invented the car. It makes no sense Native Americans didn't have horses pre Columbus, unless the Nephites never lived in the Americas.
The Bible is henotheistic not monotheistic. Monotheism comes out of philosophy and rationalism, not scripture. Many modern Christian sects including Mormonism are still polytheistic (or henotheistic). This doesn’t contradict the main point of the interview. Rather, it separates the Book of Mormon even more from the Bible. (Not that the Book of Mormon is strictly monotheistic. But it does reflect some of the influence of philosophy and rationalism on Christian theology.)
You are partly right. Your error lies in the usage of the word "the Bible". "The Bible" you are referring to is the final product of a process spanning centuries and even millenia. "The Bible" does not portray any consistent picture at all, only your interpretation might create a consistent view on the Bible. The two episodes precisely show that ancient Judaism emerged from oral culture and had a totally different world view. This means ancient Jews interpreted Genesis totally different from modern protestants and Mormons. The truth is, ancient Jews were first polytheistic as any oral cultures without a state, as any village would come up with different gods. Then, with the emergence of a state or nation (Israel, Juda) you would see henotheism (God as the head of an assembly of Gods), then you correctly saw the philosophical development towards monotheism, and only as an appendage to that to dualism by introducing Satan (Satan has no role in the cosmos before the advent of monotheism, thus he cannot be part of the original creation story). So "the bible" shows no consistent picture at sll but an evolution of theology, and modern scholarship (historical criticism) can trace this development precisely due to the inconsistencies in the text.
@@charlesmendeley9823 Fair enough. When I said the Bible is henotheistic I only meant to suggest that is the closest any part of it comes to monotheism. But, you are right, older materials in the Bible are fully polytheistic. I still strongly assert that henotheism is the closest the Bible comes to monotheism, unless you include modern translations that bias towards true monotheism. It is only by squinting at the text that modern readers are able to use it in support of true monotheism.
Did you watch the rest? He actually shows his work 😉. What was the point you most disagreed with? He avoided controversial conclusions. The majority of what he presented is easy to find out more about it. So you found his sense of humor inappropriate? Are you sure you're not LDS? Lol
Who do you trust more - man or God? If you have faith in Jesus Christ, then ask Him if the Book of Mormon is true. Of course, this works only if you actually read it, and it works only if you really believe God answers prayers. That's the big hard lump most so-called Christians can't get over. They don't really believe God will answer their prayers. Taking the Book of Mormon challenge is the easiest way to get started with personal revelation and miracles. Remember - you can do this in private and it will be between you and God. What greater witness can you have than a witness from God?
why do you have to spend to much time proving other religion wrong. Please who follow the LDS faith to it a there on will. Why don't you find something you can believe in and you focus your energy with this
We aren’t proving other religions wrong. This is our religion and we believed it for 50 years until we found out the truth claims of the church are completely false and the leadership knows this. We are simply exposing the truth. If you want to keep believing it after knowing the facts good on you but at least you are making an informed decision. Everyone has a right to know the facts and make an informed decision. Isn’t spreading the truth what the religion is all about? We are living our religion.
"I'm arguing from the evidence we do have. They are arguing from the evidence we don't have." Great sound bite/tag line, John!
Lundwall does a great job bringing all the data together, which right now is overwhelming.
10:14 I took an anthropology class about the Incan culture and I was floored to learn there was no writings. They kept records by quipus, which are knotted ropes. This was the first time I ever considered that cultures didn’t write?! Crazy hey, but it is super interesting and there is so much evidence supporting the evolution of literacy etc
Thank you for this. Dr. Lundwall's insights are applicable beyond the Book of Mormon authenticity question and can illuminate any historical pre-literate society. This makes them especially worthwhile and interesting!
2.5 hours is not a big deal at all to me. I watch in chunks if I need to. I appreciate your work Dr!😅
It is always hard to balance listening time with the time needed to fully cover a concept. We appreciate your willingness to hear the whole discussion! We are trying to pair down the time on future episodes but no guarantee! Thanks for listening!
Wow! So fascinating. Can't wait for part three. Thank you to all.
I am a simple guy. I see part 2 of the series, I click like. Then watch! 💪
💯 the last one was so good
Me too no#
I have watched it 3 times in the last 8 months. It is so valuable to see why written language for BOM was not possible us you see when language started, that the Tower of Babel could not have happened then immediately had language so the BOM revering to that is acronistic. I love a simple man yet it is so valuable to understand language and writing history
When I first saw this I thought, "How much more can they say about this?"
So much more!
51:00 Concerning the sources of the Book of Mormon text: some research has been done in this field. I recommend the episodes on Mormon Stories with Thomas Murphy (ep 1645-1647, especially 1647) as well as with Randy Bell concerning the "Dartmouth Connection" (ep 1728), the theory that Hyrum Smith attended Moor's Indian Charity School and taught Joseph many things during his sickness after his leg surgery.
Interestingly enough we have connected Dr. Lundwall with both Thomas Murphy and Randy Bell and hope they can collaborate on some projects together! Thanks for the additional information!
Good to see you again, John! Rebecca and Landon, thanks for bringing this guy back!
We can’t help but bring him on he’s not just a brilliant anthropologist/archeologist…he’s our friend!!!
I don't know how much better than episode one this could possibly be but I'm anxious to listen. It was a total paradigm shift for me to think about oral and literary cultures and how impossible the Book of Mormon is actual history. I have not believed it for several years, but it was all the other evidences and finally thinking like an adult that allowed me to dismiss it as history.
I know it's exciting and all that, but can I ask you stimulated podcasters to not speak over one another - I don't want to miss a thing - please.
Great job!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Mind blowing, mind expanding, incredible depth and erudition
no
After the advent of the printing press in Europe, the first Sunday schools were not to teach religion, rather to teach reading and writing to the working class who only had Sundays for their leisure. It was then that Europe began to become a literary society, and then books and pamphlets could be printed in huge productions because there was a huge number of people who could read and write then. It was at this time that people could now write and share ideas. When people can read and write, their knowledge grows and the world of mystery shrinks. In fact, the word "education" means to lead out of. Out of what?: darkness and ignorance. The inference about Book-of-Mormon people is that they were enlightened; however, anthropological evidence does not support such a notion.
Can you imagine how heavy a tent large enough to house Lehi's family and retainers would be to carry, even with pack animals, which are not mentioned in his history? Also, can you imagine how heavy the brass plate must have been to carry along the trail for eight years, especially without pack animals.? How could Lehi have affored physically to bring along writing materials?
Yes I can! I was the Scoutmaster! Lol. Love the comment!
Well, that problem pales in comparison to the plight of the Jaredites spending 344 days in tiny submarines with all of their animals while sailing to the promised land.
By the way, d'ya know why the Jaredite crossing took 344 days? They forgot to bring along a prophet, seer, and navigator.
@@mormonishpodcast1036 I was born with way-underdeveloped lungs, so automatically, I didn't like scouting!
I'm an Austrian never-mo just interested in such topics and 2-3h are my average length but if it's 6h that's fine with me: more to learn and it's a kind of trance anyway 😁🤘
Fantastic lectures (both 1 and 2). Have watched both a couple of times. There is so much great research being done now regarding aspects of Judaism and. Christianity. The key here (as Mr. Brophy alludes to in the first lecture) is the digital distribution of materials in the last 20 years. Now available to a wider research community than just the "faithful." Have just finished God: An Anatomy by Francesca Stavrapoulou, which deals a lot with pre-Torah Hebrew religion. Never in my early religious training would I imagine a Hebraic tribe as a dancing and oral society! Lundwall expands on these ideas so eloquently. Well done! A must view
@wyatt. Pre-Torah Hebrew RELIGION and TALMUDIC JUDAISM would be an INVALUABLE comparative exploration!!!
@@sheliabryant3997 I completely agree!
Bring it on Dr John❤. Great to meet you at Sunstone.
Ditto😂❤
Thank you for bringing Dr. Lundwall back so soon! And you are right, we want hours and hours more!
I have a thought about verbs being more important than nouns in early ceremonies. In the very creation of language, verbs were more important than nouns because the verbs kept us alive. STOP! RUN! GO! These are the calls we still easily observe in other mammals and birds.
A linguist told me there is a specific part of the brain that primarily files away our nouns. As we age, that part of the brain is vulnerable, and we start having to pause to recollect our nouns. (It is so aggravating!) Our verbs are more protected. I just thought that was interesting. It didn't occur to me then, but maybe the verbs are more protected because we had them first, and they are a deeper part of our language.
Very interesting. Our book club is reading a book The Unfolding of Language this month and this is an interesting tidbit for that discussion ! Thank you for sharing!
@calico. And in many languages the verb inheres the noun. I have read that in the Hebrew, the tense of the verb is all one (probably deriving from the Eternal Now concept). Maybe Dr. L. can advise?
That is so cool to know! Thanks.@@sheliabryant3997
@@sheliabryant3997 the Hebrew language has only three real tenses: simple past, simple present, and simple future
If only Lundwall's two episodes would have been available to me at age 18 when I first read the Book of Mormon. It would have changed the course of my life. Lundwall's research can lay to rest all of the minutiae of LDS apologists' attempts to prove Book of Mormon historicity, with squabbles over horses, steel, names, DNA, etc. Because Lundwall's theory is all-encompassing, it proves the entire Book of Mormon is its own anachronism.
Just like the BOM, we deconstruct line upon line, precept on precept! Lol. Thanks for the comment.
@@mormonishpodcast1036 x 186,000 (SPEED OF LIGHT, of course)
Quality information!! Presented effectively. Can't wait for more 🙏.
We’re taping part 3 on Sunday!!
You must do the other three!!!! So informative and info that has not been told before. Love the fact based analysis. We have eternity so time doesn’t matter.
Great episode! Look forward to the next one. Ground breaking approach
It’s good that you leave this on , on TH-cam. I see this was on a year ago. I’m really enjoying it.
31:00 I liked the discussion about how a text based religion would encourage literacy. When you study the biography of Luther, you would exactly see this play out. After having translated the Bible into German, Luther pushed elementary school education for the general population so that they could read the Bible and the catechism, etc. However, i want to point out the gap in the timeline. While Judaism and Christianity were a religion of the book for a long time, this push for literacy only occurred with the Protestant reformation. This also implies that any discussion about literacy in the general population is an anachronism pre 1517.
This really is world expanding information you are sharing. Thank you!
Absolutely the best two hours plus. So grateful for you all. Timing is everything. I cannot thank you guys enough. Sharing the heck out of this. My friends have been loving this. Watching both videos many times. Wrapping my head around all this information. Crazy the makers of Mormonism thought they could pull this off. The diabolical agenda behind all this non sense is prayerfully on it's way. Totally can see evil completely behind this massive deception. How the world did so many of us fall for this bs.
This is the best two hours? Why? Life not too interesting that a critic of a text that teaches us to follow Christ and be good to one another? I guess people get their thrills by the strangest things. BTW who are these makers of Mormonism? Joseph Smith dictated the BoM. Period. That is the evidence of JS. If the BoM is fraudulent then there is no Mormonism. You will not determine fraud or not by these academic assumptions. They are assumptions and believe me the picture presented here is full of bias and incomplete scholarship. But, if yourself and others enjoy criticizing a book that preaches of Christ and gives us another testimony that the Lord is our Redeemer then that is just odd.
I thought the first video with Dr. John was amazing, this one is incredible! Cannot count the number of times my mind was blown tonight. Everything makes so much more sense! Looking forward to many more collaborations because this is ABSOLUTELY FASCINATING!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Good show.
That means a lot coming from Dan Vogel.
FWIW: the late Dr Ray Matheney, BYU Professor of MesoAmerican Anthropology stated to me and many others IN CLASS that there is ZERO evidence of Book of Mormon civilization in MesoAmerica. ZERO. This is what the late Dr Michael Coe, of Yale University, has also stated emphatically. Those who defend the opposing position need to bring real evidence forward. Hope is NOT evidence.
Hope is not evidence! I am writing that one down! Really appreciate your comment!
From UTLM: Dee F. Green, who at one time served as editor of the University Archaeological Society Newsletter, published at the church’s Brigham Young University, made it plain that archaeological evidence did not prove the Book of Mormon: "The first myth we need to eliminate is that Book of Mormon archaeology exists…. If one is to study Book of Mormon archaeology, then one must have a corpus of data with which to deal. We do not. The Book of Mormon is really there so one can have Book of Mormon studies, and archaeology is really there so one can study archaeology, but the two are not wed. At least they are not wed in reality since no Book of Mormon location is known with reference to modern topography. Biblical archaeology can be studied because we do know where Jerusalem and Jericho were and are, but we do not know where Zarahemla and Bountiful (nor any other location for that matter) were or are. It would seem then that a concentration on geography should be the first order of business, but we have already seen that twenty years of such an approach has left us empty-handed." (Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, Summer 1969, pp. 77-78)
I was raised Catholic but by age 12-13 I was having serious doubts. I know Mormons who were raised in it and are in their 30’s and still practicing.
I am baffled as to how any thinking person can really believe it. Not just Mormonism, the Bible too.
"Dance there, where ever you may be, I am the Lord of the Dance Said He & I will lead you ALL in the Dance Said He"!
Excellent
Dr. Lundwall is a genius. I am not. But I am loving this. I’m probably only understanding 33%. But I love it.
This discussion of Dancing to interact with the Natural World makes me curious about the Dances practiced by the Native American People.
Can we see an episode (or more) that might explain those beliefs and practices?
Part 1 was really good. Now listening to part 2
Dr. Lundwalls scholarship is awesome!
I think if one applies the idea of human development to how societies/civilizations develop-- that there are certain parallels (physical, emotional, intellectual, etc.)-- the concepts the doctor is presenting might make more sense. It seems he's looking at markers that civilizations share and comparing and contrasting them.
I grew up Mormon, most of my family is Mormon. Even as a child it just didn't pass the smell test, 600 year old gut gets all the animals on one boat? Really?
Growing up I loved dinosaurs and learning about ancient cultures, I was walking distance from library and was there often. But then Sunday would come and the stories didn't mesh. It wasn't one moment in lost my faith but I think the no turning back was learning about mythology in 6th 7th grade "Why is what they believe a myth but what I believe is a religion?" Once a couldn't square that circle I was done.
It is my understanding that in the Holy of Holy of the Jewish Temple there was not an idol as was the case in all other temples of the nations. Biblical history indicates the first year of 21 year old Zedekiah’s reign was 597 BC. He was appointed by Nebuchadnezzar after he took all of Jerusalem captive including the King, prophets (except Jeremiah), merchants, craftsmen, Priests and their sacred scrolls, all objects of value out of the city etc. Only the poor were left and the administration. The Temple was not destroyed until 11 years later when 32 year old Zedekiah rebelled. During this time the prophet Ezekiel was in Babylon and the prophet Jeremiah was in Jerusalem. In 586 BC. the Temple and city were destroyed and the remnant also taken captive including Zedekiah.
The idol was the cherubim, intertwined in sequel embrace according to Raphael Patai and Eugene Seaich
Sexual embrace I meant
Perhaps the best podcast ever since it dissects the very essence of the Church - BOM, visions, inaccuracies, anachronisms, social-cultural milieu vs Smith's simplistic fantasy. BUT I do wish there was more structure / time management. Few can sit through hours of this with all the personal stories, side tracks, irrelevant comments, repetitions, etc. Much of it seems like filler which is a tragedy because John's work demonstrates the impossibility of so many LDS assumptions. Good luck.
Thanks for taking me from 99.0% to 99.99%certainty of The Book of Mormon being Jr's fable.
That’s Mormonish!!! Always giving an extra .99%! Lol. Thanks for listening!
Another fantastic informative discussion.
That was really interesting! Thanks!
Dr. Lundwall is amazing. Wondering if he discusses the issue re: the word 'plates' at any point (with y'all in private or otherwise). We call flat parts of books that show words "pages." "Plates", on the other hand, are parts of armor. Ancient armor was made of smallish plates riveted to bands of metal that were used to form and hold together the small plates to a larger helmet, breast-PLATE (and other parts of armor, I suppose). Plates are not part of books.
Handsome Lake is a Seneca prophet and a very interesting theory that perhaps also influenced Joseph Smith Jr.
I believe there starting to say it’s a revelation not a translation so regardless of whatever was on the plates it’s what god wanted written!! Thank you for the podcast!
Yes that’s the “loose translation” theory which Dr. Lundwall describes as an act of violence on the truth! Thanks for the comment!
@@mormonishpodcast1036
If it is a Revelation … you don’t need the plates . 🥴
Yep, that's the same apologetic they use to defend the Book of Abraham. That theory means that Joseph didn't even need the golden plates or the Egyptian papyrii to come up with those productions.
@@mormonishpodcast1036 Another "ACT OF VIOLENCE". Loved that; PERFECT DESCRIPTION. (My reference is to your pod with Brits in which on described Excommunication as an "A of V."). In context of THIS cast, Dr. L. seems to knock the bowling pins from those who propose the loose translation as justification validation of verity of bom and thus of all practices/doctrine continuously deriving therefrom.
once all of these are done this should close the "book" on Mormonism
Ahhh but we know it won’t even have an impact. Too many people will hang to the smallest thread of Hope needing the church to be true…each of us has our own myths we have to hold on to and the church is that myth for many people. All we can and hope to do is share the information so people can make an informed decision. Thanks for listening.
@@mormonishpodcast1036 that's so true. Ive never minded people believing in whatever they need to, I just hate the truth claims that are in fact not true
@@TrevorThatBandanaGuy Yes. And especially when they force themselves & their ways upon others. And they do. They do. And the whole world knows THEY DO! (just as in Cody, WY)
I love reading Nibley as well his book The Myth Makers is relevant to this podcat/TH-cam video
Nibley is the Rod Meldrum of his time.
@@charlesmendeley9823 Rod Meldrum is the Erich von Daniken of his time.
Commenting to help.
OHHHHH a part 2!
speaking of brass plates, the cjccf has them translated and can download for free
On the southern Utah picture holding a head I see the sun on the rock shaping a side view of a face and the nose points down to the drawing. Once you see it you can't unseen it.
Joseph smith never said meso was a location in the Book of Mormon. My family had the Milton R Hunter book “ancient America and the Book of Mormon.” I traveled several times to the Yucatán and saw absolutely no correlation with anything in the Book of Mormon. I’ve been inactive for 30 years and Understand the General authorities including Joseph aren’t infallible. But the text of the Book of Mormon has too much evidence supporting it and I have never had the impression that there was something in it that was fraudulent. I’ve been studying the Heartland model and things are starting to fall into place. It’s a shame so many people have erred in explaining facets of it. You call them lies. I call them well-meaning mistakes.
Get the retired BYU professor Dr. Peterson on your show. He’ll set you straight :)
Lol... Yeah he will blather on with his irrelevancies and help confirm Dr. Lundwall...
Fabulous
Part 1 got 14k views! That’s awesome!
Dr. Lundwall: At 1:34, do you mean they are "taking heads" as in killing people in ritual? Who kills who? Is the person to be killed supposed to feel it is an honor? Is that "trophy head" a real head? A man or a woman?
Yes. They are killing people in ritual. In some eras this was normalized and even seen as an honor. That was a real scalp from a male scalping.
I stumbled upon this and it's a topic that interests me. Sadly, there's nothing here but empty words with no meaning. Explain the Hopewell and Adena and how they don't correspond to the Book or Mormon societies. There seems to be a remarkable correlation.
The Hopewell and Adena have nothing to do with Nephites and Lamanites and had no written language pre Columbus. This is absolutely addressed in this series…there was no writing in North America pre-Columbus let alone in 600 BC. North America is an impossible location for a literate Nephite nation…period!
@@mormonishpodcast1036 Well, then that's your mistake. Look into it further.
Wait. You need to do research to debunk the Book of Mormon?
It is not for us. It is for others that might need it! 😃
Pinocchio prepared this series and channel.
Please identify what was said that you feel was untrue or we can’t address your concern.
@maddog. Well, even little Pinocchio is GROWING UP, then, isn't he!!! 💐🌹💐
When your lips are moving, you are fibbing. Grow up. Your question was Disingenuous. You know exactly what you are doing. You even admit in your description "nuanced".
@@madogg152 what lame comments. You can verify everything said in the podcast from academic sources independent of the presenter or the hosts.
"If a faith will not bear to be investigated, if its preachers and professors are afraid to have it examined; their foundation must be very weak."
-Elder George A. Smith, Journal of Discourses, v. 14, p. 216
“Faith, as well intentioned as it may be, must be built on facts, not fiction -- faith in fiction is a damnable false hope.” -Thomas Edison
The information presented in the podcast relegates the Book of Mormon to the land of fiction. The keystone has been removed.
I don't pound sand or piss in the Wind. Its a waste of my time and talents. And most import I can't have a LOGICAL discussion with LIARS. Satan doesn't fight a war he has already won. KEEP UP THE FIGHT!!!!!!!!!!@@GM-ei6mo
And yet no matter what the devil does the church continues to grow daily the faith of the people is strong my testimony of the truth is unshaken
You say Mormonism I say Kingdom leaving the kingdom of God
Q what kingdom do you belong to now?
@SploinkyDH.
I bet your one of them good on you
@MRRANDOMZ11 the only places where the church is seeing growth are places that don’t have access to information, information like that presented in the podcast. You can fact check any part of the podcast from academic sources. Just because it challenges what you believe doesn’t make it untrue or “lies.”
“Faith, as well intentioned as it may be, must be built on facts, not fiction -- faith in fiction is a damnable false hope.”
-Thomas Edison
The information presented in the podcast means the Book of Mormon is fiction. All the data from the book itself indicate it was written by someone with a 19th century world view. It’s all right there in the text.
This is really really interesting to this never Mormon.
Here's my theory on the Book of Mormon's origin:
The golden plates lay hidden,
deep in Joseph's mind.
Until he found cousin Oliver
with whom he could co-write.
The record starts with Nephi,
a studly lad of yore.
But if you make it past that part,
the rest is one big bore!
"Nothing and nobody gets through 2 Nephi."
This was said by a soldier, in a faith prompting story, in which he credited the BOM with saving his life!
Someone shot at him but the bullet lodged in his copy of the BOM, stopping at 2 Nephi.)
@@Themanyfacesofego And the rest of the story is "If not for that next bullet that tore his head off, he might still be alive today."
Great podcast! Very informative and educational. May I say Rebecca. You do not look a day over 40! You are a very beautiful lady and a great host to boot!
John and I are so lucky to work with Rebecca!!! She is a true pro!!!
In that Arnold Friberg painting, Mormon wore a green t-shirt, camo PANTS and boots. 🙄
There are a lot of believing Jews and Christians who don’t feel the need to think their scriptures are 100% literal truth, in order to find the spiritual ideas and traditions that they find uplifting. I hope that as Mormonism matures, more LDS people can come to view their scriptures this way.
1:59:16 Of course. the Lammanite leaders HAD to be dissenting Nephites. Figures.
I think LDS people can however, the leader ship will never authorize that because their prophetic calling is based on this having to be literal. But I wholeheartedly agree with your assessment. Thank you for listening.
The problem with the BOM is that Joseph Smith wrote it as a hoax, in order to sell books and draw in converts to his newly-founded fake religion. Since everything about Mormonism's origins is fake, the "spiritual ideas and traditions" within the BOM do not add value to the cause of Christianity.
I'm wondering if those were tent-towers 🤔😁
I thought it was interesting that the book of mormon claims that adam was writing and passing down those writings. Ther could be some apologetics that may justifythe timing on 600 bce vs 500 bce when the tora appears… but Adam? 😂
How I love and cherish the Book of Mormon. It is such a precious gift in my life. It brings me faith in Jesus Christ, hope and joy.
It brings me closer to our Lord Jesus Christ, and helps me desire to be more like Christ. It helps me see others a little more through Heaven’s eyes. It causes within me a desire to be more kind, patient, forgiving, and to put the Lord first in my life.
What a wonderful Book the Book of Mormon is!
No wonder Satan tries to attack it every chance he gets… he hates anything that causes our faith in Christ to grow, he hates anything that brings hope and peace. He hates all things that turn our hearts and desires towards God.
💕☀️
Your personal belief is not evidence for the Book of Mormon and lack of evidence is not Satan. If the Book of Mormon is historical there would be evidence otherwise it did not occur. I am happy you find peace in the book and you should follow it if it makes you a better person but that doesn’t make it true or historical.
You can tell he's an academic because he's trying to fit his lecture into a given time slot. He doesn't realize he has probably never held a more captive audience. This stuff is so good.
I wonder, if tears are a divine substance because it was water coming from the head, how did they view vomiting?
It's faith-based. Not truth-based for those to whom that matters.
Faith without truth is lies!
They equate authenticity with historicity. Yes the book is fictional. That’s not the point. The point is the spiritual message contained in the book.
Not if you're an orthodox true believing mormon. The Book of Mormon was taught to me as literal historical text for my whole life
And the Bible has a completely different origin , the book of Mormon, like other books are connected in alot of ways that you'd be surprised. Case in point. Mormonism is about like taking Goliath lines and then extrapolate that into Gil who was Goliath is all of a sudden captain Moroni, fallen angels . Same with Nephi, same with zen Buddhism, that's gils brother in this lifetime the same as when Goliath got slayed . Now that zen Buddhism is actually connected to mormonism by one of them being goliatbs brother . In the real time today , then you do some more research and eazelbaubis associated with the sons of belial , sons of worthlessness, that's who Mormons know as Moroni.
The Mayan aren’t the Nephites and Lamanites. The Nephites were much more advanced…
The main argument is that you cannot undo civilization advancements. E.g., if Nephite culture had horse riding, then sooner or later they would trade horses with surrounding tribes, and these cultures would take over horse domestication as well. E.g., the Chinese writing system was adapted by the Japanese, who ended up with a threefold writing system to accommodate their grammar. You do not find any cultural traces of Nephite culture in any Native American tribe, which would be natural if they lived among each other. Similarly, ancient America didn't have olive trees, which were brought to America by the Spanish settlers (cf. Wikipedia). This means that the elaborate simile of the olive tree makes no sense as soon as the first generation of Near East Jews died out. If Lehi brought olive trees to the Americas with them, then you have to explain why the species has not survived in the wild to this day, similar to horses which didn't exist. You cannot undo these things, neither plants, animals nor cultural achievements die or vanish without a trace.
Beautifully said!!! Thanks for weighing in!
The Nephites were so advanced that they built a stealth civilization that has left zero evidence of ever having existed?!?!?
@@mormonishpodcast1036 does that include biodegradable brass plates? 😅
@@mormonishpodcast1036 God hid the evidence so you'd believe the Book of Mormon on faith.
Too many assumptions as the basis of your arguments. I love discussions but when you state a theory and call it fast, you lose credibility. Too many assumptions and guesses about what ancient languages say when there is truly nobody around anymore who speaks those languages.
It doesn’t happen backwards… Then why do we have so many ruins? Where did those people go? We can see people going backwards in our own society even as so much of our civilization is growing.
If by assumptions, you mean sound peer reviewed archaeological and anthropological science you would be correct that this argument is based on assumptions. Nobody can know for certainty exactly how these cultures behave however, their art, their buildings, their language, their customs and their ancestors all give us a clue into how they would have acted. The models may not be 100% but they certainly aren’t 0% which is what the Book of Mormon archaeology is based on. It is the proponents of the Book of Mormon, who have the burden of proof to show that the Nephite culture existed, and there is absolutely zero archaeological or anthropological or linguistic or DNA evidence to corroborate the story that they tell. The assumptions come in when you believe the culture existed that wrote a book that was translated by a 14 year old boy, using a hat and a stone telling the story of a people in a geography that no one can locate speaking the Hebrew language which never existed in the Americas raising crops and domesticated animals which never did exist in the Americas, and which would have continued to exist despite the destruction of these people and yet someone follows that book to lead them in their life decisions. Yes, some cultures can decline. However, technology does not go backwards if the Nephites had horses so it would all of their neighbors if draft animals existed in the Americas, they would not disappear without a trace. If the Nephites had wheat and barley, and the other crops described in the book of Mormon, those crops would still exist in the Americas. Everyone would’ve grown them. The food chain would’ve been shared among neighbors. No culture exist in a vacuum, and then he fights would’ve been the most technologically advanced civilization. Their neighbors would’ve learned from them would’ve shared with them would’ve traded with them. That footprint would not have disappeared, just like it didn’t disappear with the Romans, the Persians, the Assyrians, or any other civilization that has disappeared the assumptions that you talk about our that civilization could exist in a vacuum with no impact on anyone around them, and yet be the most technologically advanced civilization in all of the Americas and that it’s just impossible. We are glad that you enjoy a discussion as we do but please point out exactly what that was said is an assumption so that we can address those items as we are happy to improve our model when facts are provided that contradict it. We welcome a challenge to our arguments and thank you for listening!
"Then why do we have so many ruins? Where did those people go?"
Are you referring to MesoAmerican ruins? If so, the descendants of the Mayans who built those great cities and temples in the Classic Period from 200 to 900 AD still exist in the area. Great civilizations come and go. For example, the descendants of the complex civilization that built the great Egyptian cities, temples, pyramids, and tombs, still live there. They didn't disappear without a trace. The religious traditions that produced the pyramids etc. simply died out. Later generations of course didn't bother to demolish all of the old ruins, so they're still there.
People don't believe the lies of these apostates who are doing Satan's work! Satan can't seem to leave the church alone! And, these evil people are doing his work! If you want to know the real truth, then listen to much more enlightened and much more truthful podcasts by Rod Mildrum!!!
Please tell us what credentials Rod Meldrum has! It seems that all of the apologetic “experts” are self proclaimed archeologists who have no training. I believe Rod sold culinary products. If you want to get your archeological and anthropological information from a highly trained culinary products CEO go ahead. We’ll stick with professors and peer reviewed sources.
Where's the art? There was no art, because the Nephites were iconoclastic American Protestants.
Book of Mormon is true! My personal witness from the Holy Spirit is my evidence!! Read the book then pray and get your own personal witness!!
And yet, cant stoop talking about it
Why should you find any scriptures or paintings of a people who were hunted down and killed, a people who went extinct? It says they went extinct.They themselves had rebelled and fallen away, why would there be anything left.
You have to judge the book of Mormon by what it actually says and not by what you want it to say.
Wow, you didn't watch the video. Keep drinking the Kool aid.
The people from about every culture in archeology have gone extinct!!! The Mayan’s don’t exist, the Assyrians, the Babylonians, the Romans…all gone!!! But the Nephites had wheat, barley, domesticated animals, writing, buildings, etc. These don’t disappear when the people die and crops and animals don’t just completely disappear from a continent leaving no trace.
This is only debunked by every civilization ever. Come to Europe and dig a hole, you will find remnants of ancient civilizations. Along the Rhine, you will find remnants of Roman civilization in every other construction site. Why would there be Roman murals, statues, vases, heating systems, hot tubs, fast food restaurants if this civilization has long died out? Similarly, you will find the cultural heritage of Roman culture in contemporary cultures. Latin loan words, wine culture, the judicial system, irrigation, etc. are based on Roman culture. Your argument is utter nonsense.
Duh, according to the story, the "Lamanites" who exterminated the "Nephites" were descended from common Hebrew ancestors. For one group of people to be able to exterminate another, they have to have similar technology, weaponry, etc. Meaning, if the Nephites had smelted metal swords, spears, bows and arrows, horses and chariots, written language etc., then the Lamanites would have those as well. And the conquering Lamanites would have still maintained that technology when the Spaniards arrived in the Americas in the 1500s. But there is ZERO evidence of any such cultures existing anywhere in the Pre-Columbian western hemisphere.
There are many stone stele, wall paintings, etc. which tell the story of the Mayan people who lived in the same area at the same time as the alleged "Book of Mormon people." We know all about Mayan kings, wars, culture, etc. But we can find NO evidence of the "Book of Mormon people" in those areas.
Do you see the Roman civilization now? No. But you sure as hell see a ton of evidence for it. Nephite Civilization? Give me a break!
Who knew you could create a cottage industry out of attacking a religion?
Nobody is attacking a religion. We are attacking the historical claims of a religion that has invented a myth story which they claim as truth even though the evidence overwhelmingly proves it’s falsehood. WHO or what people choose to believe is up to them but when a religion lies about those truths and then tries to hide those truths from their members that is unconscionable and the members have a duty to expose that misinformation. That is exactly what we as members of this religion are doing.
@@mormonishpodcast1036 And that's not attacking a religion? Wow!
I love these ideas. So interesting. I think this could be received as racist by some. I don't think the doc is racist but there is something that is itching there. Am I crazy?
He's describing how societies develop ideas and technology. And anachronisms in the Book of Mormon. How would that be considered racist?
Joseph Smith was a racist and this is a critique of his absurd ideas. Maybe that's what's itchy?
John studies Native societies for a living. It is his passion and love!!! Attempting to portray a society as it actually was should never be considered racist.
The racism begins when judging a people. Ancient American cultures were amazing for their time and had deep wisdom concerning nature and the cosmos. The main statement of the show is that these amazing civilizations have not been in any contact with Nephite civilization, because you would necessarily see an impact, an imprint if they had. You do not unlearn and undo cultural achievements. E.g., humans would not abandon horses once they domesticate them, until they invented the car. It makes no sense Native Americans didn't have horses pre Columbus, unless the Nephites never lived in the Americas.
He's not criticizing Native American culture. How is this in any way racist???
The Bible is henotheistic not monotheistic.
Monotheism comes out of philosophy and rationalism, not scripture.
Many modern Christian sects including Mormonism are still polytheistic (or henotheistic).
This doesn’t contradict the main point of the interview. Rather, it separates the Book of Mormon even more from the Bible. (Not that the Book of Mormon is strictly monotheistic. But it does reflect some of the influence of philosophy and rationalism on Christian theology.)
Christians aren't polytheistic: that's why Mormonism isn't Christian!
You are partly right. Your error lies in the usage of the word "the Bible". "The Bible" you are referring to is the final product of a process spanning centuries and even millenia. "The Bible" does not portray any consistent picture at all, only your interpretation might create a consistent view on the Bible. The two episodes precisely show that ancient Judaism emerged from oral culture and had a totally different world view. This means ancient Jews interpreted Genesis totally different from modern protestants and Mormons. The truth is, ancient Jews were first polytheistic as any oral cultures without a state, as any village would come up with different gods. Then, with the emergence of a state or nation (Israel, Juda) you would see henotheism (God as the head of an assembly of Gods), then you correctly saw the philosophical development towards monotheism, and only as an appendage to that to dualism by introducing Satan (Satan has no role in the cosmos before the advent of monotheism, thus he cannot be part of the original creation story). So "the bible" shows no consistent picture at sll but an evolution of theology, and modern scholarship (historical criticism) can trace this development precisely due to the inconsistencies in the text.
@@charlesmendeley9823 Fair enough. When I said the Bible is henotheistic I only meant to suggest that is the closest any part of it comes to monotheism. But, you are right, older materials in the Bible are fully polytheistic.
I still strongly assert that henotheism is the closest the Bible comes to monotheism, unless you include modern translations that bias towards true monotheism. It is only by squinting at the text that modern readers are able to use it in support of true monotheism.
Great comment!!!!
@@charlesmendeley9823 Very well said.
Catholic here - about an hr in this guy fails to show his work and is frankly unserious, but he’s solid on BofM
Did you watch the rest? He actually shows his work 😉. What was the point you most disagreed with? He avoided controversial conclusions. The majority of what he presented is easy to find out more about it. So you found his sense of humor inappropriate? Are you sure you're not LDS? Lol
Who do you trust more - man or God? If you have faith in Jesus Christ, then ask Him if the Book of Mormon is true. Of course, this works only if you actually read it, and it works only if you really believe God answers prayers. That's the big hard lump most so-called Christians can't get over. They don't really believe God will answer their prayers. Taking the Book of Mormon challenge is the easiest way to get started with personal revelation and miracles. Remember - you can do this in private and it will be between you and God. What greater witness can you have than a witness from God?
why do you have to spend to much time proving other religion wrong. Please who follow the LDS faith to it a there on will. Why don't you find something you can believe in and you focus your energy with this
We aren’t proving other religions wrong. This is our religion and we believed it for 50 years until we found out the truth claims of the church are completely false and the leadership knows this. We are simply exposing the truth. If you want to keep believing it after knowing the facts good on you but at least you are making an informed decision. Everyone has a right to know the facts and make an informed decision. Isn’t spreading the truth what the religion is all about? We are living our religion.