To everyone reading this, if you liked this video and you don't know who Noodle is, it's about time you found out. Look up Noodle on TH-cam right tf now.
IMO, it's not about combat, it's about conflict. Most forms of human entertainment require a conflict, otherwise there's nothing to become invested in. Combat is the simplest and easiest form of human conflict. Want to make a movie or tv show more exciting, throw in a bit of physical violence. Everything from a character slapping another character to a full blow fight in the street is physical conflict, and it immediately gets our attention. You may not know what's going on in a movie that your room mate is watching, but if a character gets hit, there's a good chance you'll notice. I think you skipped over sports and racing games a bit too quickly because those games demonstrate the phenomena. They are conflict with out combat. Untitled Goose Game for example is a stealth game that keeps conflict, but rejects violence. Getting shooed out of an area in UGG or dying and restarting a mission section in MGS are functionally the same thing. I think games focusing on combat are just a limitation of the medium and current gen tech. It's hard to have a character drama with today's AI. You can do it (I'm looking at you visual novels / Detroit become human), but I think it will be a while before games can effectively engage in social or psychological conflict, but I strongly believe they will at some point, because not everyone wants to play a game with combat.
tbh as far as games doing social/psychological conflict, it can already work just fine after all, most combat games cant simulate what injuries would actually kill you, but they use abstractions like an HP bar and damage numbers instead and it works just fine like, a really good example of a game focusing on social conflict is potionomics (which Leon put a screenshot of on the screen for a half second at one point) - it has things representing how interested a customer is in buying your potion, how much theyre willing to pay, how much longer until they get sick of your haggling, how stressed you are, etc, and as a result it works pretty well! ...actually detroit: become human did this too a little bit, with the stress meters although yeah its a lot harder to do like, interactions where the whole point is to have you directly talking to the characters, idk if itd get any easier without having like... AI in the "sentient AI" sense (which feels like itd be a very long way off)
Definitely this. A good narrative will generally include conflict of some kind, and conflict itself is very easily and effectively represented with or by combat. This is the case even before considering the ways in which video games are uniquely suited for making combat feel good compared to other mediums.
@@diydylana3151 Dexterity based challenges also are much more open to individuality and emergent gameplay, which generally fosters a game's continued success, and how do you introduce player-dexterity/intellect challenges to a task? Conflict and combat, either literally with the oldest trick of mankind, The Fist, or in metaphorical ways, fighting the environment or the abstract through movement, resource management or spatial reasoning, or even converting non-physical forms of fighting into familiar systems, such as the small RPGMaker game "The Last Word", which casts debates as its form of conflict and fighting Protagonist and Antagonist are building blocks of writing for a reason, even in a story with no out-and-out conflict, there will be things and people who in some manner, serve to hinder our viewpoint character, whether intentionally, or not, ranging from "That dude who dumped Jimmy in a trash can" to "That guy who's car always breaks down at the gas station right in my way" or even "My own self-doubts about this upcoming project", hostility and intent are not necessary for conflict, but conflict is almost inevitable
I'd like to note that "has a clear and defined goal and failure state" is _also_ a thing you can say about most sports, as well as about rhythm games. It seems like this is _the_ quality that most games need to have to be engaging at a gameplay level.
However, Minecraft is by some measures the best selling game of all time, and is a game with essentially no predefined goal. Is Minecraft just an anomaly there? Maybe!
@@jukmifggugghposer its not predefined directly but its mechanics and GUI give an idea. Get resources, build stuff with said resources, survive with stuff. Its freeform but survival mode still has a basic predefined goal.
@@jukmifggugghposer I mean consider why MMO's and sandbox simulators sell succesfully as well, despite not having a true failure state. Because they're easily accessible tools for experimentation, individualistic expression and community building, something Minecraft combines all three of. Failure states only becomes more necessary when it's the sole fundamental thing you interact with as a player a.k.a in a single player game context.
Even in physical (tabletop etc) games, we see combat a lot Combat sports, tabletop roleplaying games, heck: EVEN CHESS involves combat in it's thematics as it represents a war.
A culture of combat, man, these ideas you’re pulling out and making into videos are awesome, you go above and beyond regular analysis. While having a style of your own, and that’s admirable. Thanks Leon!
Considering how much you kinda write off the influence of real sports and sports games, I think it's worth noting that the cultural idea of "games" usually involves two opposing forces in conflict with one another, and the kinds of games that don't - whether they're solo experiences like Sudoku or Solataire, or groups cooperating towards a shared goal - typically aren't as popular. Credit that to the more engaging spectator experience that lets them be major pieces of culture, or whatever, i don't know or care. Adding a more fantastical element, such as explicit violence, is a logical progression when you're moving those kinds of games into a fantastical realm. Also at least from my own impression and probably more stereotypical than factual, but the kinds of sports that involve direct confrontation have a bit more of a reputation for rowdiness, aggression, and even violence. This kinda hints at a connection between the two, and could even be related somehow to the idea that both sports and games are typically seen as more "masculine" activities,,, i don't know man, this is just a good video that's making me think about things.
Tbh this video didn't make me think about very much. It did however make me think about why someone felt this was a topic that deserved this long of a video essay, because I still haven't been able to put my finger on his point.
@@RhizometricReality I feel like this video exists to field shit takes like this. You might as well ask why everyone's favorite action movies involve fight scenes, and why there are not a whole bunch of fun, interesting G rated action movies, and say its because of our deep and sordid past with violence. This is some Jack Thompson shit.
14:06 I think most of your points made earlier in the video also explain the appeal of racing games! A tug of war between dexterity and potential failure, the peril of crashing, losing, underperformimg
Just finished the video - I definitely think this is one of the best vids in a while. However-im not sure im entirely sold on the limitations games historically had being the prime determinant in creating the modern landscape of combat-centric games. If we look at another industry, like hollywood, we see that the industry became increasingly dominated by combat since at leasst the 80’s, to the point that almost all the billion dollar grossing movies are combat centric (whether superheroes, star wars, whatever). It seems like society just moved towards combat in entertainment for whatever reason. Not that this is new (the ancient epics like the illiad, etc. hold similar appeal), though movies at least were far less combat centric till the early 80’s
combat normally involves danger, overcoming danger is fun, even if it's fictional danger. There's also the aspect of people liking to win, and in combat, someone is going to lose and someone is going to win, so that's another plus people like, i guess
Fair point, but you have to admit, the logic is *very* convincing. Although, I think Hollywood has a *much* more general notion of what qualifies as "combat" and how much of the runtime is taken up by combat. I think you could just as easily come to the conclusion that specific structural or contextual aspects of film pushed them to the same result from a different source. i.e. the elements pushing games into a culture of combat are specific to games, but being in a culture of combat isn't necessarily unique.
one book i read recently was a book called "conflict and suspense" by james scott bell, and it outlines one idea in writing that you generally want to have your stakes be some kind of "death". and it outlines three kinds of death: -physical death -professional death (loss of job or some kind of status) -psychological death, or as i like to call it, "dying of cringe" (donkey kong's banana horde is a good example. he wants his bananas back mostly because they're important to him. same with knuckles and the master emerald.) the idea is that a story is more interesting if you follow somebody willing to strive for their goals and will not stop at doing so, and where failure has permanent consequences for them. just like in the game, in a narrative that isnt video games. and in stories, permanent consequences are just... easily depicted as literal death, since thats just natural. good examples of other fail states with permanent consequences are stuff like "will phoenix wright save his client"? "will jill be able to pay rent and save the bar from closing down"? "will cooking mama fuck up the ingredients, and have to drive to the store to buy another dozen eggs"? stakes like that are TECHNICALLY not permanent consequences, jill could still find a place to live and cooking mama can just buy more eggs, but it implies that its a loss off progress in their lives thats significant to them. they all care immensely. what happens when even literal death isnt a permanent consequence? you get something that ends up like dragon ball, which some people criticize for not permanent consequences when they can just revive everybody. the audience reacts similarly to a certain scene in DBZ abridged, where after the main character supposedly dies, tien flat out says "why do any of you care? we can just wish him back." flat out, "we dont have a reason to care". and that means no stakes. there are workarounds to the issues with dragon ball, like making the conflict something different (can dbs broly calm down without having to die?), or taking away the reset button, or goku making the conscious choice to not get brought back. but i digress. the point is that the characters need to care. wrestling is a great example of conflict, and iirc its the oldest sport in history. look at any main-event wrestling match, and they'll hype up their match to be the MOST IMPORTANT WRESTLING MATCH IN ALL OF HISTORY FOREVER!!! the way wrestlers hype up their matches not only implies that you should care, but that the wrestlers themselves care, and that losing will be a huge shame to their career, and to themselves. would leffen vs chillindude be as memorable without the diss track beforehand? what if instead, chillindude said that it would just be a friendly match and hed be happy to see his best friend leffen win? what if he never told us that he cared? would i even have taken note of that match? i guess what im trying to say is that so many video games find death and combat to be the source of their conflict is because it was ALREADY normalized, in both fiction and real memorable events. and this whole time, the most important fighting game was our real lives...
This is such an interesting discussion subject, holy SHIT- I was definitely aware of this pattern with video games but I never really tried dwelling on it. Cool. Great work on the video man, always glad to see you doing your thing.
As others have pointed out, i think the most enticing thing about combat and what makes it so popular is the conflict inherent to it. Conflict sets stuff in motion and develops interest in the viewer. This is why action shows create more engagement than slice-of-life shows except maybe when the latter has a story-progressing moment once in a blue moon. It also explains why sports are successful and not just an outlier as the focus on combat implies. Almost every sport is conflict, between teams or individuals, direct or indirect, some with more combat put into the mix than others (and then there's contact sports, which ARE combat). Sure, these sports games ride on the popularity of their real-life parallel but they wouldn't be as popular if they didn't replicate that conflict they associated with (along with the branding). Plus, combat is so successful because it's the most direct and easiest to implement form of conflict. Psychological or ideological conflict is also possible but it's more complex and has a way less unilateral perspective. The conflict around a superhero registry requires understanding both sides' positions and how their lives would be changed by it. Maybe you'd compare it to a real-life equivalent to relate to it better. But a punch to the face? Everyone gets it and most importantly, it makes dough.
This channel is literally the quickest rise in quality and proficiency over time I have ever seen on this website. It’s honestly incredible. Keep it up, glad I can say I’ve been here since (near) the start
My mom was always hyper worried about me playing violent games, and she’s surprised that the games I have the most hours on today are games like Farming Simulator, Stardew Valley, and MLB The Show. Combat is inherent to gaming, but it isn’t why I play them. I’m only a few minutes in, but I am very excited to watch this. I love video essays, and in school and university, I LOVED essays because they gave me an avenue to express my thoughts. Even if you get burnt out with animating and editing, your medium is an extremely enjoyed by those that want to consume it. Keep it up, dude.
Good talk. I feel one aspect left unexplored is other genres of storytelling. For example, in books classically conflict drives the story. Very similar to games. So you could say that's more a human storytelling thing, rather than just being limited to games..
The 3D sections of this video are a welcome addition. Also, yes Before Your Eyes is a fantastic game. It's one of those games I can't believe exists because it's so outside the norm but so good.
God damn I'm so glad I found your channel early on. It's been a wild ride seeing you go from "guy who talks about guilty gear and other fighting games" to an established video essay creator making incredibly high quality stuff like this. It's great to see the funke/noodle inspired animation and continued experimentation with your videos, underpinned by your continued excellence in scripting. The beats hit fast and keep the videos consistently engaging. Great work once again
I think we also naturally enjoy combat due to survival urges, y'know, the same reason animals play with each other, combat in games can give us a safe way of engaging in fights for survival and also gives us the pleasure of conquering said fights. I think that as much a history contributed to our current situation, we are naturally drawn to combat and conflict, if even for a little bit.
I think so too, almost all creatures have that in them even if they aren’t violent by nature. My dog is a great example, she wouldn’t hurt a fly yet she will brutally rip apart her plushes happily despite never showing interest in doing something similar with a living being. There is just this primal satisfaction of killing our enemies, drive them before us and hearing the lamentation of their allies.
Yeah that was my first thought. I often observe my cat playing with things on the ground and its the exact same behavior as when she's playing with a mouse.
i think something that makes combat so pervasive in fiction is that it's frowned upon in real life. killing something in a game (usually) amounts to little consequence - other than forward progress - that can't be easily resolved, and there's something inherently fun and cool with video games in being able to do things outside of reality Running a business (such as in management sims), driving (such as in racing games), dancing to/playing music (such as some rhythm games), etc. are things that most people *can* do in real life. Games in those genres introduce other elements that make them cooler by virtue of spectacle, not everybody can own a theme park, be a Formula 1 driver, perform on a stage to thousands of people, play in a huge sports team etc. but the basic mechanics of those are (relatively) accessible to the average person and won't have much negative impact on one's life On the other hand being a gangster with a kill count in the hundreds, fighting waves of people on the streets, most combat in general is either something that is (a) illegal (b) gets you killed (c) inaccessible to most people (d) all of the above, and games let you have those experiences without the real world consequence of course there are fringe cases like wrestling, boxing and UFC for example, that end up in that first category (not everybody can be a Muhammad Ali or a Hulk Hogan but there are amateur leagues for those things), but i think the difference is that those are regulated sports where the goal is not to kill but simply to fight the best (whether judged, by forcing a surrender, or knockout), and they also end up in the second category where the "base mechanic" of those sports would just be picking fights with people in the street, which of course comes with the aforementioned conseuences
Man this is really well done! Editing is insanely clean (one of my favorites is just the little transition from melee's 4:3 to GG's 16:9 at 1:56). Really like the visuals you crafted too, it's crazy to see how your content has evolved over the years.
Conflict makes stories, stories are about changes in hierarchies, combat is the highest and most direct level of conflict and changes in hiearchies. Its not that surprising that we gravitate towards stories with combat. All the most popular games up until video games were sports, which is pretty much simulated warfare were teams could participate and the winner can bedecided without the other side having to be dead as a win trigger.
I'm here after your monster hunter video, and 2 minutes in to this one I'll say that I have no real desire to perform violent behaviors in real life, but in a video game with no consequences I'll gladly be a menace to a digital society. It's a strange dichotomy I love animals more then most people but Monster Hunter is one of my favorite games. Would I crush the skulls of my enemies with a jet powered hammer at the local super market? No, but I do love playing Reinhardt in Overwatch.
I've heard a lot of flippant comments of "why are games always about fighting? more game devs should make non-violent games", but this is the first analysis I've seen that really goes into explaining _why_ fighting is so prevalent. Well done!
Yeah, I've too been thinking about why combat and death are so prevalent in not only video games, but basically all forms of fiction, and in my opinion the aswer is pretty simple: The concept of death is an integral part of a human mentality and stands for the worst thing that can happen to you (by default). Fear of death is engraved in every human since birth. And precisely because of this, death is everywhere. The driving force behind any narrative is conflict. The ultimate form of conflict is combat. And combat ends in death.
🏰When battle is joined, let all men of good lineage think of naught but the breaking of heads and arms, For it is better to die than be vanquished and live ....I tell you I have no such joy as when I hear the shout *"On! On!"* from both sides and the neighing of riderless steeds, And groans of *"Help me! Help me!"* And when I see both great and small Fall in the ditches and on the grass And see the dead transfixed by spear shafts! Lords, mortgage your domains, castles, cities But never give up war! -by Bertrand de Born (12th century)⚔
You may not have put the game titles in the video but thanks anyway for putting them in the description. Most youtubers would of gave up on it by then so Thank You! Ganna give Marble It Up a try.
Actually my imagined game was a speed runner first person smoocher where you smooch all the homies goodnight before they get restless. ... And then you get a shotgun and fight the demons. Damn your right! It always goes to violence!
Excellent. Takes a point and meticulously breaks it down to every little detail. You summed up everything in a minute at the end, which makes the fact that this video is half an hour even more impressive in comparison.
23:19 hey, i'll have you know that "wow cool guns" was a very deliberate design decision for those early id software games! there's specifically an anecdote about how, when John Romero heard the sound effect for the chaingun in Wolfenstein 3D for the first time, he was literally blown away and fell out of his chair lol
Wow. This video (aside from the cursing and humor at some points I guess) is something I’d expect to find straight out of a scholarly database. You are a genuine scholar
Visual novels are a key example of how history has this effect, since early Japanese games made it very easy to implement these kind of systems, which in turn led to them being a much bigger trend in Japan in contrast to the rest of the world
It has been fantastic to see the evolution of your production value in your videos since the beginning, this one had a lot of effort put into it with the 3d animations (love the lil' bear). Nice going mate
Damn Leon, I already liked your videos a lot, now you gotta crank up the production value like this? You're making it impossible to not be one of my favorites now! Keep up the good stuff man
I think the way game mechanics influence what stories they can tell is really interesting. Because so much of conventional game design is built on a fail state paired with increasing challenge as the game goes on, you end up with a ton of games that directly (mega man x, ocarina of time) or indirectly (most games with skill curves lol) have themes of “you grow stronger and overcome challenge” and “you were weak but now you’re strong.” It’s part of why killing God is a trope in JRPGs, because RPG mechanics lend themselves to “kill monster, level up, kill bigger and stronger monster” and who is the biggest and strongest and most dramatic monster if not literally God? But this means you end up with a surplus of games that focus on this one theme of becoming more capable. And like, I like these games, I like to become more capable of dealing with challenge, but I’d also like to see more games use their mechanics to tackle some more interesting thematic ideas that literature and film can do. But I probably won’t end up playing em anyway bc boring art game I want to punch things
your last sentence is something frustrates me so much, these "artsy" games may have a interesting things to say but the majority are So. Fucking. Boring. and it isn't like the average gamer has zero interest or appreciation to these more in-depth narratives, just look at the explosion of popularity Metal Gear Rising received this year, MGS is an example of a game with both stupid fun combat and "gamey" aspects while also having a in-depth narrative with themes and such and such, the secret here is how it integrates the 2 to create a engaging and immersive experience.
tbh something i really wanna see now is a game where theres still a skill curve, but instead of getting more capable your character is getting _weaker_, and whoever youre fighting is roughly the same power level especially since like, it feels like the theme of "getting stronger over time" is kinda everywhere in _every_ media, and in US culture in general, just look at stuff like the phrase "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger" but sometimes that just doesn't happen, sometimes something doesn't kill you but it leaves a lasting negative impact, sometimes nothing even has to be happening to make your situation worse maybe you could have a game where its like, a character with a chronic disease that slowly gets worse, and you have to deal with that or something less obviously tied to real life, where you have a spaceship running low on fuel and power, and you have to keep jettisoning weight and deactivating systems to keep going, and then the final battle is against someone in _a normal ship_, the same type of ship you had before you had to tear yours apart just to survive
@@eden3669 What you said is called Negative Progress Curve, and I think I remember quite a bit of game with that exact structure, one of which is that you play as a knight in an RPG, but each round you have to play with fewer and fewer mechanic to move and fight with, leading to a game that get progressively harder at each turn. Don't remember the title though
@@eden3669 I think that happens with the 2020 SUPERHOT sequel where each level you have to give up another ability, although I personally do not think the direct removal of player mechanics works best for this. What seems like a more fun way to go about it would lean more into having to skillfully get the maximum return from whatever abilities you have instead of the game becoming simplified in that way.
God, the animation here is such a perfect fit for your whole style. I hope it's not a one-off presentation choice Speaking of decisions, this is one of those essays that had me like "My mind has been actually blown"
I think the opening is maybe a bit seeing a pattern and then not getting the causality entirely right. I think it is a lot more important that the people making games just found action stuff really cool so that's the kind of stuff they tried to make. Kinda like how the people making games like Rogue or Nethack just really liked DnD and those games were a way to sorta get to play old school DnD when you couldn't get a group together. I think a good reason to go for this explanation rather than thinking about the specific challenges and failure states and all that, is because the most popular movies and series and so on are also all about "combat" or as they call it "action", and they don't have failure states or dexterity challenges or anything like that. And also plenty of different games with combat in it have completely different sets of challenges to portray those. So basically the reason games are about combat is because up until like 50-60 years ago it was not unlikely that you would die in violent struggle, and also in 1824 a Prussian Junior Officer named Georg Heinrich Rudolph Johan von Reisswitz made the version of his fathers game Kriegsspiele that would become the default game for training the Prussian army generals, and thereby make complex tabletop games be about war for the next 200 years. Okay that was a lot of maybe kinda sour stuff to read, I hope it's still convincing for me to say that I really liked the video.
I've never seen a video with such a density and diverse quantity of screen clips from incredibly influential games I've loved, than this one right here. Subbed for this reason alone, and watching and hoping for some more of the same to come. And the overall topic of the video is cool too, but I have little to say to it, because of just how struck by overwhelming visual nostalgia I am right now. :)
Your comment @25:24 really opened my mind. It's true, a lot of genres are propped up solely based on fan recognition, such as FIFA, and for racing games, Gran Turisimo. But this is also true of other dying mediums, such as D&D holding up TTRPGs, and Batman holding up DC comics, and WoW / FFXIV holding up the MMORPGs, and League of Legends holding up the MOBAs. It seems the actual demand for these games no longer exists, and are propped up by these IPs alone, but it's also the reason why these IPs can't get any bigger sa they have 90% market saturation
For the record my idea was something ive been thinking of every now and again. Basically a cardgame like Legends of Runeterra or gwent but with spaceships and more strategy involved. Since the cards would be in 'combat' I guess that counts Also, the title in this case primes the mind for fighting games too
gaddam the quality of the video for the length it goes is mind boggling, especially how fast you put these out. Amazing work, take care of yourself and beware of burning out.
The Advance Wars tank in this video’s thumbnail got me thinking about something important. Off the top of my head, here are the top five best tanks in fighting games: 5. Either Jacky or Jeffry has an oxygen tank (for scuba diving) that they can equip in Virtua Fighter 5 Final Showdown, if I recall correctly 4. The tank that you can wall-combo against in Tekken 6 (Urban War Zone) 3. Blitztank 2. The tank that Alex Valle was wearing at the 1998 SFA3 World Championship 1. Politank Z from Waku Waku 7 Injustice 1 does have a small propane tank you can hit someone over the head with (Metropolis museum) but it detonates about as violently as a standard-size water balloon, which honestly just feels surprisingly underwhelming, and especially in the context of the rest of that game. I feel like DOA almost certainly must have a big exploding gas tank somewhere in the series, but I don’t know for sure so I can’t include it.
Funke 2???? Good video, love seeing your style evolve. I don't even care about fighting games but you're so fucking interesting that it never mattered?
One thing Leon didn't mention is the nature of the hardware itself. There have been all kinds of use cases for these math machines over the years, but the original reason they were developed, was to calculate the trajectory of an object moving through a space in real time, for use with missiles. That's what computers are inherently good at, whereas the subtleties of conversation not so much. The tools we're using to create these games bias us toward combat before development has even begun.
The adventure/quest/point-and-click genre was, for some reason, relatively popular on PC during the 90s. Most of these games had little to no combat involved and I have great memories of them (notable examples: The Neverhood, Gabriel Knight, Monkey Island). It's hard to believe that this genre was ever popular, harder to believe how quickly it disappeared, and very reassuring to know that it's somehow survived thanks to the indie movement. Side note: it's also very weird to notice how many years have passed since I was a kid playing these games
Man you went from making really good videos somehow tied into Guilty Gear that I wanna watch into making literal essays about video games that I wanna watch. Literally, it's like 12:43 in the morning and I'm only just now going to sleep. Worth it for this
As always, i love all your videos. Your editing is on point and the jokes are genuinely funny, and I LOVE the animations thrown in there too, theyre super clean and beautiful! Fits right in with the rest of the video :) And my two favourite games do have an element of combat in them; the entirety of Terraria's progression is built on beating the shit out of a bigger boi than you, and Celeste's reflection climax is pretty much combat, just without a sword or gun. Its interesting to think about. Please, continue to make your amazing videos, theyre always amazing :D
Wow, some of this feels like Egoraptor's old sequelitis series. Remember that? Remember Ego pre-Game Grumps? Loving the structure of this video mate, keep up the good good.
Damn Leon, haven't watched you in a while but moving away from doing exclusively fighting game content really raised my interest again. Great editing, interesting topics.. way to go, man.
your videos are a hit or miss for me but this is definitly a hit and I appreciate the misses for sure. you love videogames, I can see that in your videos. I like how you are trying understanding them better and sharing that passion with others
I don’t know if the choice of Kirby’s Adventure as the b-roll when Leon talks about “push and pull” is an intentional reference to Masahiro Sakurai’s frequent use of the term in his videos, but I’m inclined to think he knew what he was doing given the “combat evolved” joke right before, and it got a chuckle out of me regardless.
I think one thing not thought about is comparing the trend of combat (and slash or violence) in other mediums. Movies as visual medium are oldest and still surest cross media inspiration for video games; Metroid = Alien, Some other games, Alien Isolation. I think the ending builds up combat being something games are stuck and stuck with alone, as John Wick 4 is one of most hyped upcoming movie releases after Marvel finished off one series of movies based off combat and the biggest fight yet. Video games started with other stuff like Zork and had a good go with games that if not violence free, were largely combat free with point and click adventure being video game equilavent to good book while usual action game is your usual blockbuster movie made since 70's or so. IF this is chosen to be viewed as an issue or challenge it involves more than just video games. As for video games, non-combat has lived for long in many ways but it is challenging to design a game that is fast paced and these days against other people without it being framed as combat. Making up fantasy sports for example immediately tasks your team to also market this fantasy sport along the game and you can hardly blame people who skip the elaborate overdesigning part with something simple and readily understandable. Contextualizing history of games as history of combat is forgetting the likelihood you played out police and robbers, or past couple of thousands of human history based on real life combat and war - it is a can of worms best opened by no one but also not something you can just ignore with analysis leaving the final analysis weak, because this is not history of combat centric video games as much as it is history and other media influencing games. We would like to think otherwise, but we are still pretty combative species who has stepped on path of real life annihilation many times and our last dab was recent and sadly not the last. The only parts that were left unsaid because of this angle are the questions of us needing combat as framing for compelling fast action game mechanics. Can you do a fighting game without physical fighting, and for what purpose? Can you explain and make your version of fiction as compelling if not more compelling than traditional fighting; or do you do as fighting games do and give just the best most rediculous fantasy stories to justify that combat, as history itself justifies it's wars with very, VERY long versions of "It is what it is". Can you make a compelling and violent game that talks against the violence? Can you make visually and combat wise violence free game that includes all the horrors underneath it? All in all less or non combat are great in video games but for now they also fit in more narrative based and slower games. There is nothing wrong with slow game but this means in terms of game mechanics, if we deem it to be absolutely needed, what would be fast character action based narrative game with dark souls boss difficulty but we also somehow do not have a "boss" or maybe even player character not even sure what replaces the combat. Rhythm games exist, I love those too as do fast paced puzzle games. While I like the idea of diverse games and all of that, I also think the problem is more diverse... With few dilemmas: Danganronpa series, 999 and Virtue's Last Reward are all narrative games with puzzler minigames and elements, where player never engages in direct combat and only "fights" can be categorized as battles of wit or final standoff, but these games do not feature combat in gameplay mechanics, yet violence is around these games, some people attack other people, the characters inflict death upon each other, blood is shown, extremely detailed descriptions of exploded body is typed out on my DS bottom screen in EXTREMELY vivid detail, violence and themes of combat definitely are in these games. Yet the player cannot cause death directly, your mission is to strive for survival of innocent people no matter how unlikely that goal is framed in story - you engage with the characters possibly find your motivation to keeping those characters alive in story through their individual stories and you have an extremely non-combat experience with framing of violence and combat still with the story. Are these games combat games or non-combat games? In gameplay they are definitely not and in story themes of combat are minimal or momentary but definitely there. Would attempt to create conflictless combat be good or more likely hypocritical? I think best of both worlds is encapsulated in many if not most Fighting games. These games even in their most fantasy form usually have very sports like framing for their combats, akin to Boxing, Soccer or other sport. While actions on the screen are depicting fighting the characters are very playful about it, having unique rivalries and ways these bouts are capped off with unique voice lines. Aside one (and very American) series aside, death and violence are not celebrated and incorprated as part of the game. It is usually made clear by most fighting games that every character is capable of giving what they are capable of taking, and while combat and some violence happens on screen of every fighting game, it is very easy to look at Street Fighter, Tekken or Guilty Gear and conclude that these are not rage filled wars with will to kill and die at center. Levels of violence are important too; it is silly to compare a punch in Street fighter to fatality in Mortal kombat. You can even have player feelings about violence be tested especially after dramatic story sequence asking them to question even the fake violence and then also have choice in lethal and non lethal enforcement not just after that point but before it too. Combat and violence are slightly more nuanced. It becomes very hard to question this. Is chess a combat simulation, and is playing chess a combat game or not? In what point of the line between chess and xcom combat exist, if not already in chess itself? Will removing combat and substituting it with something else serve your creation and audience experience positively. In the end, I do not mind a combat free game as a old boomer I kinda like menuing through experiences a lot too, but I think we have a bit more history with this combat thing than just 30 years of video games that causes our memetic fixation with that fighting stuff. We have much older and multi cultural hold on violence. For most part, we are also better remembering and keeping control over our combat than trying to deny it outright. If you never had to fight over anything with your fists, you are lucky, extremely lucky or blessed and it is good, but if you think everyone else will have the same experience is extremely naive, and conversation about should they have combat and violence free life is far more nuanced than just a "no". Combat has more media and history context than just in the beginning there was video games, and then there was war. While understandably not a point for the video, ignoring humanity's history with combat and war as clear influences leaves the analysis somewhat hollow, "searching for salvation" in the end when humanity has not yet found salvation for question of violence and combat themselves over thousands of years and with this weight it would been topical to explore at least self made suggestions of "combatless action" to at least make your own spinball idea for fast paced mechanically challenging game that has no combat, to find what seeds if any exist in this cave. Personally I think it is hard, and extremely challenging when you are asked for third and fifth and 10th example, making it understandable why combat is included mechanically and questioned more narratively. Games that do this include Metal Gear Series, Spec Ops The line even if I hate the game and fart sniffing, Nier/Automata and many more. These games by depicting the violence of conflict graphically and even by actions of the player can ultimately put the ehereal hand on player's wrist and talk about violent conflict and it's negative impacts on the world and how easy it is for someone with nukes to cause infinitely more real damage than you with your digital blocky USP can, even within confines of your fictional hero simulator. You as a player understand how easily a weapon wipes out a target, and can be satisfied by it. You have dispatched your enemy successfully many times. You can also understand through this what perceptions are important to change, to hopefully prevent someone from using real weapons with fantasy logic.
So, that's why I'm not the hugest form of pure platformers like Mario- I don't just want to get through the level successfully, I want to beat it, have power over it, thrive in it, like in a fighting platformer like Prince of Persia
6:28 u spelt fallacy wrong
predatory too
and crimson in “crimzon clover”
Also for liking LoL he is now cancelled
@@sakarain might've been talking about the bullet hell rather than the song or the plant, in which case it's a z
@@Kirbymaster105 yeah that’s what I meant. It was written with an s in the description
Video essays that are edited and animated with this much love, care, and attention to detail are the best things to exist on the internet
And its free
God tier contents and it cost nothing
I was going to say this. This is the best thing that youtube has given rise to.
I guess you've seen FUNKe's vids if like this sort of thing but still go check him out
To everyone reading this, if you liked this video and you don't know who Noodle is, it's about time you found out. Look up Noodle on TH-cam right tf now.
@@EdShear_em too late I already know him
Bro when did you become an editing god?!! This is definitely a thing to be thankful for.
Same editing as always pretty good as always.
Why do you believe he does the editing?
@@sadetwizelve why do you think he doesn’t?
I recognise that editing style, its from funke
To say nothing of the animation!
IMO, it's not about combat, it's about conflict. Most forms of human entertainment require a conflict, otherwise there's nothing to become invested in. Combat is the simplest and easiest form of human conflict. Want to make a movie or tv show more exciting, throw in a bit of physical violence. Everything from a character slapping another character to a full blow fight in the street is physical conflict, and it immediately gets our attention. You may not know what's going on in a movie that your room mate is watching, but if a character gets hit, there's a good chance you'll notice. I think you skipped over sports and racing games a bit too quickly because those games demonstrate the phenomena. They are conflict with out combat. Untitled Goose Game for example is a stealth game that keeps conflict, but rejects violence. Getting shooed out of an area in UGG or dying and restarting a mission section in MGS are functionally the same thing.
I think games focusing on combat are just a limitation of the medium and current gen tech. It's hard to have a character drama with today's AI. You can do it (I'm looking at you visual novels / Detroit become human), but I think it will be a while before games can effectively engage in social or psychological conflict, but I strongly believe they will at some point, because not everyone wants to play a game with combat.
Dungeons and dragons, most ttrpgs
And dwarf fortress
tbh as far as games doing social/psychological conflict, it can already work just fine
after all, most combat games cant simulate what injuries would actually kill you, but they use abstractions like an HP bar and damage numbers instead and it works just fine
like, a really good example of a game focusing on social conflict is potionomics (which Leon put a screenshot of on the screen for a half second at one point) - it has things representing how interested a customer is in buying your potion, how much theyre willing to pay, how much longer until they get sick of your haggling, how stressed you are, etc, and as a result it works pretty well!
...actually detroit: become human did this too a little bit, with the stress meters
although yeah its a lot harder to do like, interactions where the whole point is to have you directly talking to the characters, idk if itd get any easier without having like... AI in the "sentient AI" sense (which feels like itd be a very long way off)
Definitely this. A good narrative will generally include conflict of some kind, and conflict itself is very easily and effectively represented with or by combat. This is the case even before considering the ways in which video games are uniquely suited for making combat feel good compared to other mediums.
Well said
@@diydylana3151 Dexterity based challenges also are much more open to individuality and emergent gameplay, which generally fosters a game's continued success, and how do you introduce player-dexterity/intellect challenges to a task? Conflict and combat, either literally with the oldest trick of mankind, The Fist, or in metaphorical ways, fighting the environment or the abstract through movement, resource management or spatial reasoning, or even converting non-physical forms of fighting into familiar systems, such as the small RPGMaker game "The Last Word", which casts debates as its form of conflict and fighting
Protagonist and Antagonist are building blocks of writing for a reason, even in a story with no out-and-out conflict, there will be things and people who in some manner, serve to hinder our viewpoint character, whether intentionally, or not, ranging from "That dude who dumped Jimmy in a trash can" to "That guy who's car always breaks down at the gas station right in my way" or even "My own self-doubts about this upcoming project", hostility and intent are not necessary for conflict, but conflict is almost inevitable
I'd like to note that "has a clear and defined goal and failure state" is _also_ a thing you can say about most sports, as well as about rhythm games. It seems like this is _the_ quality that most games need to have to be engaging at a gameplay level.
However, Minecraft is by some measures the best selling game of all time, and is a game with essentially no predefined goal. Is Minecraft just an anomaly there? Maybe!
@@jukmifggugghposer Minecraft isn't engaging at a gameplay level, it's engaging at a story level (because you're deciding what the story is)
@@jukmifggugghposer its not predefined directly but its mechanics and GUI give an idea. Get resources, build stuff with said resources, survive with stuff. Its freeform but survival mode still has a basic predefined goal.
@@jukmifggugghposer I mean consider why MMO's and sandbox simulators sell succesfully as well, despite not having a true failure state. Because they're easily accessible tools for experimentation, individualistic expression and community building, something Minecraft combines all three of. Failure states only becomes more necessary when it's the sole fundamental thing you interact with as a player a.k.a in a single player game context.
Even in physical (tabletop etc) games, we see combat a lot
Combat sports, tabletop roleplaying games, heck: EVEN CHESS involves combat in it's thematics as it represents a war.
A culture of combat, man, these ideas you’re pulling out and making into videos are awesome, you go above and beyond regular analysis. While having a style of your own, and that’s admirable. Thanks Leon!
Considering how much you kinda write off the influence of real sports and sports games, I think it's worth noting that the cultural idea of "games" usually involves two opposing forces in conflict with one another, and the kinds of games that don't - whether they're solo experiences like Sudoku or Solataire, or groups cooperating towards a shared goal - typically aren't as popular. Credit that to the more engaging spectator experience that lets them be major pieces of culture, or whatever, i don't know or care. Adding a more fantastical element, such as explicit violence, is a logical progression when you're moving those kinds of games into a fantastical realm.
Also at least from my own impression and probably more stereotypical than factual, but the kinds of sports that involve direct confrontation have a bit more of a reputation for rowdiness, aggression, and even violence. This kinda hints at a connection between the two, and could even be related somehow to the idea that both sports and games are typically seen as more "masculine" activities,,,
i don't know man, this is just a good video that's making me think about things.
Tbh this video didn't make me think about very much. It did however make me think about why someone felt this was a topic that deserved this long of a video essay, because I still haven't been able to put my finger on his point.
Violence is the medium in which society conducts its relationships to power.
It is a really good video
Good comment. The sports and general 'competition between two groups' side of this would have added to the video.
@@RhizometricReality I feel like this video exists to field shit takes like this. You might as well ask why everyone's favorite action movies involve fight scenes, and why there are not a whole bunch of fun, interesting G rated action movies, and say its because of our deep and sordid past with violence. This is some Jack Thompson shit.
14:06 I think most of your points made earlier in the video also explain the appeal of racing games! A tug of war between dexterity and potential failure, the peril of crashing, losing, underperformimg
Just finished the video - I definitely think this is one of the best vids in a while. However-im not sure im entirely sold on the limitations games historically had being the prime determinant in creating the modern landscape of combat-centric games. If we look at another industry, like hollywood, we see that the industry became increasingly dominated by combat since at leasst the 80’s, to the point that almost all the billion dollar grossing movies are combat centric (whether superheroes, star wars, whatever). It seems like society just moved towards combat in entertainment for whatever reason. Not that this is new (the ancient epics like the illiad, etc. hold similar appeal), though movies at least were far less combat centric till the early 80’s
I would say that was because of the cold war
combat normally involves danger, overcoming danger is fun, even if it's fictional danger. There's also the aspect of people liking to win, and in combat, someone is going to lose and someone is going to win, so that's another plus people like, i guess
If you wanna be slightly conspiratorial you could draw a correlation between the rise of videogames and combat centric movies becoming more popular
Fair point, but you have to admit, the logic is *very* convincing.
Although, I think Hollywood has a *much* more general notion of what qualifies as "combat" and how much of the runtime is taken up by combat.
I think you could just as easily come to the conclusion that specific structural or contextual aspects of film pushed them to the same result from a different source. i.e. the elements pushing games into a culture of combat are specific to games, but being in a culture of combat isn't necessarily unique.
A big part of why Hollywood has so many expensive modern combat movies is that the US military are sponsoring these kind of movies
"Many of us have grown up with video games,
but videogames grew up during the cold war."
- Ahoy
The culture of combat in games is something that I been genuinely thinking about for years
Thank you for making this video
Violence is the medium in which society conducts its relationships to power.
@@RhizometricReality thnks gengar
@@arison9876 remember kids, Officer Jenny is a class traitor
one book i read recently was a book called "conflict and suspense" by james scott bell, and it outlines one idea in writing that you generally want to have your stakes be some kind of "death".
and it outlines three kinds of death:
-physical death
-professional death (loss of job or some kind of status)
-psychological death, or as i like to call it, "dying of cringe" (donkey kong's banana horde is a good example. he wants his bananas back mostly because they're important to him. same with knuckles and the master emerald.)
the idea is that a story is more interesting if you follow somebody willing to strive for their goals and will not stop at doing so, and where failure has permanent consequences for them. just like in the game, in a narrative that isnt video games.
and in stories, permanent consequences are just... easily depicted as literal death, since thats just natural.
good examples of other fail states with permanent consequences are stuff like "will phoenix wright save his client"? "will jill be able to pay rent and save the bar from closing down"? "will cooking mama fuck up the ingredients, and have to drive to the store to buy another dozen eggs"?
stakes like that are TECHNICALLY not permanent consequences, jill could still find a place to live and cooking mama can just buy more eggs, but it implies that its a loss off progress in their lives thats significant to them. they all care immensely.
what happens when even literal death isnt a permanent consequence? you get something that ends up like dragon ball, which some people criticize for not permanent consequences when they can just revive everybody. the audience reacts similarly to a certain scene in DBZ abridged, where after the main character supposedly dies, tien flat out says "why do any of you care? we can just wish him back."
flat out, "we dont have a reason to care". and that means no stakes.
there are workarounds to the issues with dragon ball, like making the conflict something different (can dbs broly calm down without having to die?), or taking away the reset button, or goku making the conscious choice to not get brought back. but i digress.
the point is that the characters need to care. wrestling is a great example of conflict, and iirc its the oldest sport in history. look at any main-event wrestling match, and they'll hype up their match to be the MOST IMPORTANT WRESTLING MATCH IN ALL OF HISTORY FOREVER!!! the way wrestlers hype up their matches not only implies that you should care, but that the wrestlers themselves care, and that losing will be a huge shame to their career, and to themselves.
would leffen vs chillindude be as memorable without the diss track beforehand? what if instead, chillindude said that it would just be a friendly match and hed be happy to see his best friend leffen win? what if he never told us that he cared? would i even have taken note of that match?
i guess what im trying to say is that so many video games find death and combat to be the source of their conflict is because it was ALREADY normalized, in both fiction and real memorable events.
and this whole time, the most important fighting game was our real lives...
This is such an interesting discussion subject, holy SHIT-
I was definitely aware of this pattern with video games but I never really tried dwelling on it. Cool.
Great work on the video man, always glad to see you doing your thing.
As others have pointed out, i think the most enticing thing about combat and what makes it so popular is the conflict inherent to it. Conflict sets stuff in motion and develops interest in the viewer. This is why action shows create more engagement than slice-of-life shows except maybe when the latter has a story-progressing moment once in a blue moon. It also explains why sports are successful and not just an outlier as the focus on combat implies. Almost every sport is conflict, between teams or individuals, direct or indirect, some with more combat put into the mix than others (and then there's contact sports, which ARE combat). Sure, these sports games ride on the popularity of their real-life parallel but they wouldn't be as popular if they didn't replicate that conflict they associated with (along with the branding).
Plus, combat is so successful because it's the most direct and easiest to implement form of conflict. Psychological or ideological conflict is also possible but it's more complex and has a way less unilateral perspective. The conflict around a superhero registry requires understanding both sides' positions and how their lives would be changed by it. Maybe you'd compare it to a real-life equivalent to relate to it better. But a punch to the face? Everyone gets it and most importantly, it makes dough.
10 seconds in and I'm already amazed, i love you Leon
This channel is literally the quickest rise in quality and proficiency over time I have ever seen on this website. It’s honestly incredible. Keep it up, glad I can say I’ve been here since (near) the start
Leon definitely leveled up his video editing skills for this video
Leon whipped out the Funke editing and I love it
the matthewmatosis clip at the beginning made laugh way too hard when I realized where you cut it off
My mom was always hyper worried about me playing violent games, and she’s surprised that the games I have the most hours on today are games like Farming Simulator, Stardew Valley, and MLB The Show. Combat is inherent to gaming, but it isn’t why I play them. I’m only a few minutes in, but I am very excited to watch this. I love video essays, and in school and university, I LOVED essays because they gave me an avenue to express my thoughts.
Even if you get burnt out with animating and editing, your medium is an extremely enjoyed by those that want to consume it. Keep it up, dude.
26:11
I feel personally attacked!
Good talk. I feel one aspect left unexplored is other genres of storytelling.
For example, in books classically conflict drives the story. Very similar to games.
So you could say that's more a human storytelling thing, rather than just being limited to games..
The 3D sections of this video are a welcome addition. Also, yes Before Your Eyes is a fantastic game. It's one of those games I can't believe exists because it's so outside the norm but so good.
These videos are criminally underrated
Now I want a co-op game where you have to beat an arcade game while holding off hordes of zombies
10:53 I UNDERSTOOD THAT REFERENCE
God damn I'm so glad I found your channel early on. It's been a wild ride seeing you go from "guy who talks about guilty gear and other fighting games" to an established video essay creator making incredibly high quality stuff like this. It's great to see the funke/noodle inspired animation and continued experimentation with your videos, underpinned by your continued excellence in scripting. The beats hit fast and keep the videos consistently engaging. Great work once again
I think we also naturally enjoy combat due to survival urges, y'know, the same reason animals play with each other, combat in games can give us a safe way of engaging in fights for survival and also gives us the pleasure of conquering said fights. I think that as much a history contributed to our current situation, we are naturally drawn to combat and conflict, if even for a little bit.
I think so too, almost all creatures have that in them even if they aren’t violent by nature. My dog is a great example, she wouldn’t hurt a fly yet she will brutally rip apart her plushes happily despite never showing interest in doing something similar with a living being. There is just this primal satisfaction of killing our enemies, drive them before us and hearing the lamentation of their allies.
Yeah I was surprised this wasn't touched on at all. I really do think that's closer to the primary reason than just historical context.
Violence is the medium in which society conducts its relationships to power.
Recommend Zizek's work, "Violence"
Yeah that was my first thought. I often observe my cat playing with things on the ground and its the exact same behavior as when she's playing with a mouse.
@@RhizometricReality violensh💦 and sho on and sho on💦
i think something that makes combat so pervasive in fiction is that it's frowned upon in real life. killing something in a game (usually) amounts to little consequence - other than forward progress - that can't be easily resolved, and there's something inherently fun and cool with video games in being able to do things outside of reality
Running a business (such as in management sims), driving (such as in racing games), dancing to/playing music (such as some rhythm games), etc. are things that most people *can* do in real life. Games in those genres introduce other elements that make them cooler by virtue of spectacle, not everybody can own a theme park, be a Formula 1 driver, perform on a stage to thousands of people, play in a huge sports team etc. but the basic mechanics of those are (relatively) accessible to the average person and won't have much negative impact on one's life
On the other hand being a gangster with a kill count in the hundreds, fighting waves of people on the streets, most combat in general is either something that is (a) illegal (b) gets you killed (c) inaccessible to most people (d) all of the above, and games let you have those experiences without the real world consequence
of course there are fringe cases like wrestling, boxing and UFC for example, that end up in that first category (not everybody can be a Muhammad Ali or a Hulk Hogan but there are amateur leagues for those things), but i think the difference is that those are regulated sports where the goal is not to kill but simply to fight the best (whether judged, by forcing a surrender, or knockout), and they also end up in the second category where the "base mechanic" of those sports would just be picking fights with people in the street, which of course comes with the aforementioned conseuences
0:43 Because murder is fun. I can spend hours upon hours just murdering random people in GTA IV.
Man this is really well done! Editing is insanely clean (one of my favorites is just the little transition from melee's 4:3 to GG's 16:9 at 1:56). Really like the visuals you crafted too, it's crazy to see how your content has evolved over the years.
I like how combat makes me feel
"And that, is why video games cause violence."
Conflict makes stories, stories are about changes in hierarchies, combat is the highest and most direct level of conflict and changes in hiearchies. Its not that surprising that we gravitate towards stories with combat.
All the most popular games up until video games were sports, which is pretty much simulated warfare were teams could participate and the winner can bedecided without the other side having to be dead as a win trigger.
This was fantastic. The animation and editing adds so much value to the message. I can only imagine how much time you put into all this. Thank you 🙏
Whoa... this is an amazimg video essay. Best I've seen in months, in fact. Thank you!
Love your video essays, the animations you made elevate it even further, they really appreciated
Bro what is this JUMP in editing all a sudden this is awesome!
Bro the animation is fire.
I'm here after your monster hunter video, and 2 minutes in to this one I'll say that I have no real desire to perform violent behaviors in real life, but in a video game with no consequences I'll gladly be a menace to a digital society. It's a strange dichotomy I love animals more then most people but Monster Hunter is one of my favorite games. Would I crush the skulls of my enemies with a jet powered hammer at the local super market? No, but I do love playing Reinhardt in Overwatch.
I've heard a lot of flippant comments of "why are games always about fighting? more game devs should make non-violent games", but this is the first analysis I've seen that really goes into explaining _why_ fighting is so prevalent. Well done!
Yeah, I've too been thinking about why combat and death are so prevalent in not only video games, but basically all forms of fiction, and in my opinion the aswer is pretty simple:
The concept of death is an integral part of a human mentality and stands for the worst thing that can happen to you (by default). Fear of death is engraved in every human since birth. And precisely because of this, death is everywhere.
The driving force behind any narrative is conflict. The ultimate form of conflict is combat. And combat ends in death.
🏰When battle is joined, let all men of good lineage think of naught but the breaking of heads and arms,
For it is better to die than be vanquished and live ....I tell you I have no such joy as when I hear the shout
*"On! On!"* from both sides and the neighing of riderless steeds, And groans of *"Help me! Help me!"*
And when I see both great and small Fall in the ditches and on the grass And see the dead transfixed by spear shafts!
Lords, mortgage your domains, castles, cities But never give up war!
-by Bertrand de Born (12th century)⚔
You may not have put the game titles in the video but thanks anyway for putting them in the description. Most youtubers would of gave up on it by then so Thank You! Ganna give Marble It Up a try.
Actually my imagined game was a speed runner first person smoocher where you smooch all the homies goodnight before they get restless.
...
And then you get a shotgun and fight the demons. Damn your right! It always goes to violence!
Excellent. Takes a point and meticulously breaks it down to every little detail. You summed up everything in a minute at the end, which makes the fact that this video is half an hour even more impressive in comparison.
23:19 hey, i'll have you know that "wow cool guns" was a very deliberate design decision for those early id software games! there's specifically an anecdote about how, when John Romero heard the sound effect for the chaingun in Wolfenstein 3D for the first time, he was literally blown away and fell out of his chair lol
Wow. This video (aside from the cursing and humor at some points I guess) is something I’d expect to find straight out of a scholarly database. You are a genuine scholar
No one in the comments talking about the time matthewmatosis was the only youtuber able to drop the N bomb and rightfully get away with it
I love Matthew (Platonically)
i love seeing your content and editing style constantly improve
Visual novels are a key example of how history has this effect, since early Japanese games made it very easy to implement these kind of systems, which in turn led to them being a much bigger trend in Japan in contrast to the rest of the world
I love how all you recent videos have to slam the yanks somehow!
Gotta stick it to those punks!
It has been fantastic to see the evolution of your production value in your videos since the beginning, this one had a lot of effort put into it with the 3d animations (love the lil' bear). Nice going mate
Damn Leon, I already liked your videos a lot, now you gotta crank up the production value like this? You're making it impossible to not be one of my favorites now! Keep up the good stuff man
The editing on your videos has always been amazing, but this time it’s downright insane!
I think the way game mechanics influence what stories they can tell is really interesting. Because so much of conventional game design is built on a fail state paired with increasing challenge as the game goes on, you end up with a ton of games that directly (mega man x, ocarina of time) or indirectly (most games with skill curves lol) have themes of “you grow stronger and overcome challenge” and “you were weak but now you’re strong.” It’s part of why killing God is a trope in JRPGs, because RPG mechanics lend themselves to “kill monster, level up, kill bigger and stronger monster” and who is the biggest and strongest and most dramatic monster if not literally God? But this means you end up with a surplus of games that focus on this one theme of becoming more capable. And like, I like these games, I like to become more capable of dealing with challenge, but I’d also like to see more games use their mechanics to tackle some more interesting thematic ideas that literature and film can do. But I probably won’t end up playing em anyway bc boring art game I want to punch things
your last sentence is something frustrates me so much, these "artsy" games may have a interesting things to say but the majority are So. Fucking. Boring.
and it isn't like the average gamer has zero interest or appreciation to these more in-depth narratives, just look at the explosion of popularity Metal Gear Rising received this year, MGS is an example of a game with both stupid fun combat and "gamey" aspects while also having a in-depth narrative with themes and such and such, the secret here is how it integrates the 2 to create a engaging and immersive experience.
tbh something i really wanna see now is a game where theres still a skill curve, but instead of getting more capable your character is getting _weaker_, and whoever youre fighting is roughly the same power level
especially since like, it feels like the theme of "getting stronger over time" is kinda everywhere in _every_ media, and in US culture in general, just look at stuff like the phrase "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger"
but sometimes that just doesn't happen, sometimes something doesn't kill you but it leaves a lasting negative impact, sometimes nothing even has to be happening to make your situation worse
maybe you could have a game where its like, a character with a chronic disease that slowly gets worse, and you have to deal with that
or something less obviously tied to real life, where you have a spaceship running low on fuel and power, and you have to keep jettisoning weight and deactivating systems to keep going, and then the final battle is against someone in _a normal ship_, the same type of ship you had before you had to tear yours apart just to survive
@@eden3669 What you said is called Negative Progress Curve, and I think I remember quite a bit of game with that exact structure, one of which is that you play as a knight in an RPG, but each round you have to play with fewer and fewer mechanic to move and fight with, leading to a game that get progressively harder at each turn. Don't remember the title though
@@eden3669 I think that happens with the 2020 SUPERHOT sequel where each level you have to give up another ability, although I personally do not think the direct removal of player mechanics works best for this. What seems like a more fun way to go about it would lean more into having to skillfully get the maximum return from whatever abilities you have instead of the game becoming simplified in that way.
@@eden3669 iirc Senua's Sacrifice does this
God, the animation here is such a perfect fit for your whole style. I hope it's not a one-off presentation choice
Speaking of decisions, this is one of those essays that had me like "My mind has been actually blown"
I think the opening is maybe a bit seeing a pattern and then not getting the causality entirely right. I think it is a lot more important that the people making games just found action stuff really cool so that's the kind of stuff they tried to make. Kinda like how the people making games like Rogue or Nethack just really liked DnD and those games were a way to sorta get to play old school DnD when you couldn't get a group together. I think a good reason to go for this explanation rather than thinking about the specific challenges and failure states and all that, is because the most popular movies and series and so on are also all about "combat" or as they call it "action", and they don't have failure states or dexterity challenges or anything like that. And also plenty of different games with combat in it have completely different sets of challenges to portray those. So basically the reason games are about combat is because up until like 50-60 years ago it was not unlikely that you would die in violent struggle, and also in 1824 a Prussian Junior Officer named Georg Heinrich Rudolph Johan von Reisswitz made the version of his fathers game Kriegsspiele that would become the default game for training the Prussian army generals, and thereby make complex tabletop games be about war for the next 200 years. Okay that was a lot of maybe kinda sour stuff to read, I hope it's still convincing for me to say that I really liked the video.
I've never seen a video with such a density and diverse quantity of screen clips from incredibly influential games I've loved, than this one right here. Subbed for this reason alone, and watching and hoping for some more of the same to come.
And the overall topic of the video is cool too, but I have little to say to it, because of just how struck by overwhelming visual nostalgia I am right now. :)
Your comment @25:24 really opened my mind. It's true, a lot of genres are propped up solely based on fan recognition, such as FIFA, and for racing games, Gran Turisimo.
But this is also true of other dying mediums, such as D&D holding up TTRPGs, and Batman holding up DC comics, and WoW / FFXIV holding up the MMORPGs, and League of Legends holding up the MOBAs.
It seems the actual demand for these games no longer exists, and are propped up by these IPs alone, but it's also the reason why these IPs can't get any bigger sa they have 90% market saturation
For the record my idea was something ive been thinking of every now and again.
Basically a cardgame like Legends of Runeterra or gwent but with spaceships and more strategy involved.
Since the cards would be in 'combat' I guess that counts
Also, the title in this case primes the mind for fighting games too
gaddam the quality of the video for the length it goes is mind boggling, especially how fast you put these out. Amazing work, take care of yourself and beware of burning out.
The Advance Wars tank in this video’s thumbnail got me thinking about something important.
Off the top of my head, here are the top five best tanks in fighting games:
5. Either Jacky or Jeffry has an oxygen tank (for scuba diving) that they can equip in Virtua Fighter 5 Final Showdown, if I recall correctly
4. The tank that you can wall-combo against in Tekken 6 (Urban War Zone)
3. Blitztank
2. The tank that Alex Valle was wearing at the 1998 SFA3 World Championship
1. Politank Z from Waku Waku 7
Injustice 1 does have a small propane tank you can hit someone over the head with (Metropolis museum) but it detonates about as violently as a standard-size water balloon, which honestly just feels surprisingly underwhelming, and especially in the context of the rest of that game.
I feel like DOA almost certainly must have a big exploding gas tank somewhere in the series, but I don’t know for sure so I can’t include it.
Funke 2????
Good video, love seeing your style evolve. I don't even care about fighting games but you're so fucking interesting that it never mattered?
Violence is the medium in which society conducts its relationships to power.
One thing Leon didn't mention is the nature of the hardware itself. There have been all kinds of use cases for these math machines over the years, but the original reason they were developed, was to calculate the trajectory of an object moving through a space in real time, for use with missiles. That's what computers are inherently good at, whereas the subtleties of conversation not so much. The tools we're using to create these games bias us toward combat before development has even begun.
The adventure/quest/point-and-click genre was, for some reason, relatively popular on PC during the 90s. Most of these games had little to no combat involved and I have great memories of them (notable examples: The Neverhood, Gabriel Knight, Monkey Island). It's hard to believe that this genre was ever popular, harder to believe how quickly it disappeared, and very reassuring to know that it's somehow survived thanks to the indie movement.
Side note: it's also very weird to notice how many years have passed since I was a kid playing these games
Man you went from making really good videos somehow tied into Guilty Gear that I wanna watch into making literal essays about video games that I wanna watch.
Literally, it's like 12:43 in the morning and I'm only just now going to sleep. Worth it for this
This is one of the best video game "video essays" I've seen. Not only is it an interesting observation/thought, but the points are well thought out.
As always, i love all your videos. Your editing is on point and the jokes are genuinely funny, and I LOVE the animations thrown in there too, theyre super clean and beautiful! Fits right in with the rest of the video :)
And my two favourite games do have an element of combat in them; the entirety of Terraria's progression is built on beating the shit out of a bigger boi than you, and Celeste's reflection climax is pretty much combat, just without a sword or gun. Its interesting to think about. Please, continue to make your amazing videos, theyre always amazing :D
Pheonix is my favorite arcade game of all time, thank you for being one of like 5 people I’ve ever seen reference it
Wow, some of this feels like Egoraptor's old sequelitis series. Remember that? Remember Ego pre-Game Grumps?
Loving the structure of this video mate, keep up the good good.
Hearing the words “universal negative edge charge fireball” made me cringe and say “ughh” out loud
Bro I'm not sure when I subbed but I'm glad as hell I did.
Top notch content, very interesting subject and superb presentation.
Cheers Leon, keep up!
Babe wake up new Leon Massey video just dropped
Damn Leon, haven't watched you in a while but moving away from doing exclusively fighting game content really raised my interest again. Great editing, interesting topics.. way to go, man.
Dude the animation is actually insane!!
vouch
Really well made video. I've noticed recently that almost all games I play have some kind of combat in them and wondered why that is
Man, once sentence in and you're already on the razors edge. great vid
This is such a good video on a lot of things. Yet somehow it feels like it's only talking about one thing alone. THAT is an impressive feat
The only thing better than a Leon video is a leon video with a bigger budget. Hot damn
The production quality of this video is through the roof.
Woah graphics updated for this channel. Looks good!
Your editing style is amazing, very underrated
Leon i could watch your little teddy bear animations for hours its so cute!
this is fucking incredible man, love this direction. keep making good shit, youre one of the best on the platform rn
0:20 no actually I made doctor Mario but with Faust 😤
I’m getting a Egoraptor x FUNKe vibe from your videos lately. Love the work you’ve been putting in mate
Dude, awesome editing!
Bro you just keep on getting better. your videos never let me down.
your videos are a hit or miss for me but this is definitly a hit and I appreciate the misses for sure. you love videogames, I can see that in your videos. I like how you are trying understanding them better and sharing that passion with others
Never seen someone else reference lovely planet before thank you Leon
I don’t know if the choice of Kirby’s Adventure as the b-roll when Leon talks about “push and pull” is an intentional reference to Masahiro Sakurai’s frequent use of the term in his videos, but I’m inclined to think he knew what he was doing given the “combat evolved” joke right before, and it got a chuckle out of me regardless.
2:13 when someone says "guys I skipped the engine off" and you watch their replay
I think one thing not thought about is comparing the trend of combat (and slash or violence) in other mediums. Movies as visual medium are oldest and still surest cross media inspiration for video games; Metroid = Alien, Some other games, Alien Isolation. I think the ending builds up combat being something games are stuck and stuck with alone, as John Wick 4 is one of most hyped upcoming movie releases after Marvel finished off one series of movies based off combat and the biggest fight yet. Video games started with other stuff like Zork and had a good go with games that if not violence free, were largely combat free with point and click adventure being video game equilavent to good book while usual action game is your usual blockbuster movie made since 70's or so. IF this is chosen to be viewed as an issue or challenge it involves more than just video games. As for video games, non-combat has lived for long in many ways but it is challenging to design a game that is fast paced and these days against other people without it being framed as combat. Making up fantasy sports for example immediately tasks your team to also market this fantasy sport along the game and you can hardly blame people who skip the elaborate overdesigning part with something simple and readily understandable. Contextualizing history of games as history of combat is forgetting the likelihood you played out police and robbers, or past couple of thousands of human history based on real life combat and war - it is a can of worms best opened by no one but also not something you can just ignore with analysis leaving the final analysis weak, because this is not history of combat centric video games as much as it is history and other media influencing games. We would like to think otherwise, but we are still pretty combative species who has stepped on path of real life annihilation many times and our last dab was recent and sadly not the last.
The only parts that were left unsaid because of this angle are the questions of us needing combat as framing for compelling fast action game mechanics. Can you do a fighting game without physical fighting, and for what purpose? Can you explain and make your version of fiction as compelling if not more compelling than traditional fighting; or do you do as fighting games do and give just the best most rediculous fantasy stories to justify that combat, as history itself justifies it's wars with very, VERY long versions of "It is what it is". Can you make a compelling and violent game that talks against the violence? Can you make visually and combat wise violence free game that includes all the horrors underneath it? All in all less or non combat are great in video games but for now they also fit in more narrative based and slower games. There is nothing wrong with slow game but this means in terms of game mechanics, if we deem it to be absolutely needed, what would be fast character action based narrative game with dark souls boss difficulty but we also somehow do not have a "boss" or maybe even player character not even sure what replaces the combat. Rhythm games exist, I love those too as do fast paced puzzle games.
While I like the idea of diverse games and all of that, I also think the problem is more diverse... With few dilemmas: Danganronpa series, 999 and Virtue's Last Reward are all narrative games with puzzler minigames and elements, where player never engages in direct combat and only "fights" can be categorized as battles of wit or final standoff, but these games do not feature combat in gameplay mechanics, yet violence is around these games, some people attack other people, the characters inflict death upon each other, blood is shown, extremely detailed descriptions of exploded body is typed out on my DS bottom screen in EXTREMELY vivid detail, violence and themes of combat definitely are in these games. Yet the player cannot cause death directly, your mission is to strive for survival of innocent people no matter how unlikely that goal is framed in story - you engage with the characters possibly find your motivation to keeping those characters alive in story through their individual stories and you have an extremely non-combat experience with framing of violence and combat still with the story. Are these games combat games or non-combat games? In gameplay they are definitely not and in story themes of combat are minimal or momentary but definitely there. Would attempt to create conflictless combat be good or more likely hypocritical?
I think best of both worlds is encapsulated in many if not most Fighting games. These games even in their most fantasy form usually have very sports like framing for their combats, akin to Boxing, Soccer or other sport. While actions on the screen are depicting fighting the characters are very playful about it, having unique rivalries and ways these bouts are capped off with unique voice lines. Aside one (and very American) series aside, death and violence are not celebrated and incorprated as part of the game. It is usually made clear by most fighting games that every character is capable of giving what they are capable of taking, and while combat and some violence happens on screen of every fighting game, it is very easy to look at Street Fighter, Tekken or Guilty Gear and conclude that these are not rage filled wars with will to kill and die at center. Levels of violence are important too; it is silly to compare a punch in Street fighter to fatality in Mortal kombat. You can even have player feelings about violence be tested especially after dramatic story sequence asking them to question even the fake violence and then also have choice in lethal and non lethal enforcement not just after that point but before it too. Combat and violence are slightly more nuanced.
It becomes very hard to question this. Is chess a combat simulation, and is playing chess a combat game or not? In what point of the line between chess and xcom combat exist, if not already in chess itself? Will removing combat and substituting it with something else serve your creation and audience experience positively. In the end, I do not mind a combat free game as a old boomer I kinda like menuing through experiences a lot too, but I think we have a bit more history with this combat thing than just 30 years of video games that causes our memetic fixation with that fighting stuff. We have much older and multi cultural hold on violence. For most part, we are also better remembering and keeping control over our combat than trying to deny it outright. If you never had to fight over anything with your fists, you are lucky, extremely lucky or blessed and it is good, but if you think everyone else will have the same experience is extremely naive, and conversation about should they have combat and violence free life is far more nuanced than just a "no".
Combat has more media and history context than just in the beginning there was video games, and then there was war. While understandably not a point for the video, ignoring humanity's history with combat and war as clear influences leaves the analysis somewhat hollow, "searching for salvation" in the end when humanity has not yet found salvation for question of violence and combat themselves over thousands of years and with this weight it would been topical to explore at least self made suggestions of "combatless action" to at least make your own spinball idea for fast paced mechanically challenging game that has no combat, to find what seeds if any exist in this cave. Personally I think it is hard, and extremely challenging when you are asked for third and fifth and 10th example, making it understandable why combat is included mechanically and questioned more narratively. Games that do this include Metal Gear Series, Spec Ops The line even if I hate the game and fart sniffing, Nier/Automata and many more. These games by depicting the violence of conflict graphically and even by actions of the player can ultimately put the ehereal hand on player's wrist and talk about violent conflict and it's negative impacts on the world and how easy it is for someone with nukes to cause infinitely more real damage than you with your digital blocky USP can, even within confines of your fictional hero simulator. You as a player understand how easily a weapon wipes out a target, and can be satisfied by it. You have dispatched your enemy successfully many times. You can also understand through this what perceptions are important to change, to hopefully prevent someone from using real weapons with fantasy logic.
All Leon's videos I had watched prior were a bit older, so I was surprised when I booted up this one and a FUNKe Study began to play
love the new aesthetic style, clearly wearing your inspirations on your sleeve in the best way
leon jesus this vid is amazing thank you so much for this content
So, that's why I'm not the hugest form of pure platformers like Mario- I don't just want to get through the level successfully, I want to beat it, have power over it, thrive in it, like in a fighting platformer like Prince of Persia