HOW WEAK Are Goku Jr. & Vegeta Jr.?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 8 ก.ย. 2024
- #DragonBallGT #DragonBallZ #DragonBallSuper
How Weak Is Goku Jr? How Weak Is Vegeta Jr? At the end of Dragon Ball GT Goku Jr fought against Vegeta Jr in a world tournament. This was after 100 years of no dragon balls in the shadow dragon arc. But what about Goku Jr in GT A hero's legacy? Qaaman breaks down this anime and manga related discussion today.
Artist: jamesy1991
It’s amazing how strong their Saiyan genes are considering they’re I like 1/16th Saiyan.
Wayyyy lower than that. Goku Jr is 1/64th.
@@QaamansLand
Really? That’s insane.
Nothing actually suggests that having less Saiyan DNA than a full blood makes you any weaker, on the contrary, we have multiple examples of half breeds or quarter breeds being far stronger than most pure blood saiyans that ever lived...
@@reptilian_geneticist
The Daizenshuu said that Pan’s lack of Saiyan heritage would prevent her from becoming a Super Saiyan. Obviously it’s before GT came up with Goku Jr, but that was at least an initial thing.
@@LordZula yeah thats just made up nonsense from the daizenshu staff that has no statements or info from the manga or anime to back it up... pan is literally stronger than 99.9% of all pure blood saiyans that ever lived.... Gohan, a half saiyan, is stronger than any pure blooded saiyan that ever lived.... all the evidence points to hybrids being substantially stronger than pure blooded saiyans 💯
I equated Goku Jr to be like Kid Gohan, his desire to fight isn't great so it kinda held back how strong he really is, especially since he wasn't really properly trained by a teacher like Roshi, Piccolo, or anyone like that.
I was thinking similarly.
Goku Jr going SSJ but not Pan is still ridiculously odd to me to this day…
Even with SSJ he is WAYYYYYYY WEAKER than pan ever was.
@@QaamansLandeven weaker then grany Pan? Yikes!
Sexism
@@shameronstar7220Nah it's just Pan having a skill issue
@@eugenekrabs2403 Well, the Super version of Pan is a prodigy
Pan might have gotten the best of both genes. She retains her prime for longer thanks to the saiyan genes but she doesn't age rapidly thanks to her human genes. That effectively explains why shes so athletic for her old age
Nope it was gohan,trunks and goten
Any descendent of pan will turn into strong humans with lower potential and power then 100% sayians
But 50% sayian 50% human hybrids are gods
Goku and vegeta will still be on top tho because Toriyama likes them too much lmao.
@@quantashonjamaldigglerbury4934Prove it.
@@quantashonjamaldigglerbury4934Gohan beast is cannonically stronger than ultra instinct and ultra ego
I never thought about it one way or the other, personally the only time I have ever thought of it was when my friend asked. my response was 'He is likely stronger than Raditz because everyone is Stronger than Raditz.'
He should not be called Vegeta Jr. I think he's the fifth because the Vegeta is already the Vegeta IV.
Something to point out is that Vegeta jr most likely had gravity chamber training since thats what everyone in their family did. So the jrs might be featless but saying a vegeta family member cant do the style of training thag everyone in their family loved doing seems unrealistic.
I don't think they are much weaker solely because they didn't have a ton of saiyan genes. What made the characters in dragonall so much stronger was they were constantly facing stronger and stronger foes that they needed to overcome. If goku only ever had to face dinos and weak villans like in the future with goku jr he probably would be around the same strength if not less.
Yeah, you can look at Early Z to see what all the events of DB did for Goku and Piccolo but on a galatic scale they were woefully insignicant
Goten and Trunks were strong as kids even before they fought any powerful enemies.
And toddler Gohan had a power level of 1300 that dwarfed his father and Piccolo at the time with no training or battle experience.
@@aaronjahmar8542 While true they also had less saiyan dna then their fathers but turned out stronger for their age. For them they had stronger people around them that motivated them to train harder.
Pure blooded saiyans as a whole were never really all that strong... nearly every saiyan was a low class saiyan with a power level around 1,000 or less... Raditz(1500) and Nappa(4000) are some of the only middleclass saiyans, although they both claim to be an elite... kid Vegeta and King Vegeta were the only super elites, both roughly around 10,000 and Vegeta got stronger as he got older.... Pan, Goten, Trunks and Gohan are all hybrids and stronger than 99% of all pure blood Saiyans that ever lived lol...
@@shaunytheboi3834 No its because anything below 20-25% sayian will turn into a strong human
50/50 human sayian hybrid is sweet spot
100% sayian is also good
I hope one day we get more screen time of them like in dragon ball heroes or some game or whatever. I feel they could’ve been super interesting to explore.
I agree @locodesert12 I would like to see Goku Jr. and Vegeta Jr. join Time Patrol and interact with Xeno Goku, Xeno Gohan, Xeno Goten, Xeno Pan, Xenon Vegeta and Xeon Trunks. I would also like to see Goku Jr. interact with Beat since they are both descendants of Goku.
I find it weird that pan had insane potential but could'nt go super saiyan. She fought buu level characters at 9 years old! This is far greater than what any other saiyan did at her age.
Re-read your comment. What Saiyan?
@@QaamansLand Thanks, I fixed it.
@@Sanis3757They didn't know how they would draw her
@@RizzRoss9001ew, no super saiyan for girl
GT probably got rejected by creator.gohan never even went ss2
I agree Qaaman Goku Jr. and Vegeta Jr. are probably around Kid Goku strength after Master Roshi's training. Their diluted Saiyan genetics have made them alot weaker.
Are you counting them as SSJ? Where do you think they are base wise?
Remember-Krillin, Tien, Yamcha and Roshi are completely human. Sure, them barely being sayians makes them much weaker than they could've been but still.
Also, they're freaking super sayians. Alltho, I admit I didn't watch this video before saying all this, so I might change my mind🤔
@@QaamansLand theyre probably similar to kid goku after roshi's training while in base. With supersaiyan, theyd be like nappa level, maybe vegeta in the saiyan saga.
To put it in actual numbers, around 300 power level in base, 12000-18000 in SSJ
@@Evasivthey don’t have the feats to be as strong as Kid Goku period
They should test as 100% human. At some point there's no saiyan left. Can't get around that.
What did people expect them at that age to one shot baby or super 17?
Goten and Kid Trunks tho
@@DorienTheHeroOfTheArts Trunks was training with Vegeta in the gravity room, it would make since for him to have a respectable power level. Dont know how Goten managed to be even close to him by just training with Chi Chi. And if you're talking Gotenks, thats a fusion, all fusions are stupid strong.
@@jetscream8080 They were still the same age as Goku Jr, and could do much more. That's the point I'm trying to make
@@jetscream8080Remember Goten did spar with Trunks
@@QaamansLand fair enough
The best way to scale Goku jr and Vegeta Jr is the audience they’re going all out in their base form and then transforming into their super Saiyan form can the audience still can keep up making them even weaker than kid Goku, because some of his fights in the tournament the audience couldn’t see like his first fight with master Roshi remember because they had to slow down to show the audience what happened?
Unless the majority of earth has some sort of saiyan dna now like how many saiyans came and gone by then could be a crazy amount for all we know
Thats not a good indicator at all. Goten vs Trunks was similar. This fight is essentially a callback to it.
Bro that’s crazy to think about how many potential sayiains there are
@@martinchurch719 ikr
@@bumblebower1529this is actually what happens in Dragon Ball Online written by Toriyama. 1000 years later it’s a coin flip if you have Saiyan ancestry
I could kinda agree but... Through training they may raise their power in base when they grow. Part of Saiyan genes, they may have mini zenkai boost too.
Inversely, how strong would someone be with higher saiyan DNA and lower human DNA? Like a quarter human saiyan etc? We've seen hybrids and further dilution of the saiyan genes, but never stronger saiyan genes and weaker human genes.
What if Gohan had a kid with Caulifla?
@@QaamansLand Yeah. Or if Goten grew up and settled down with another universe 6 Saiyan.
@@Desmuuthat’s what I wanted to know too. What if a Half Sayian had a kid with a full bread Sayian.
Does Saiyan DNA actually correlate strongly to how powerful a character can get? Obviously discluding zenkai boosts. Look at the humans in Super, or even in Z. Look at the strength gains they made training under Kami or Kaio-sama, which far surpassed the strength gains made by Goku under those same teachers.
But remember those guys trained together for months and months
Goku jr finally developed his hybrid powers against Lord Yao then with pans training its safe to assume he is gt pans level in base
In invincible the comic, the viltrimites’ offspring with humans are actually 99.9% viltrimite dna. So maybe Saiyans are that way too.
i dont think him being weaker then goku at that age has anything to do with his genes but more with the fact its just a peaceful time all around if the worst threats their world is facing are a few thugs picking on bears and stuff
The don't transform in to SSJs though...they "Go Blonde" 😆😆😆😆
Its immediately an issue if you try to consider power levels. In order to stay weak enough to fight monsters similar to early dragon ball, he would need a base power of 1 or 2. But Goku Jr did things with Pan that are incredible for human standards. Maybe its not as good as Goku when we first met him, but its better than the farmer with a shotgun with a power level of 5 could do. If Goku Jr had a power level of 5 too, then ssj would put him around thw power levels shown around the Piccolo arc. If it was 10, which i guess could be acceptable, then ssj would make him stronger than Goku when he fought Raditz. I don't think the monsters he fought would be nearly that strong, but maybe they're stronger than we give them credit for. The warthog guy could be as strong as anyone in the first arc of dragon ball. Or he can be as strong as tambourine or piccolo jr. Who knows.
What about the chick with a sword?
@QaamansLand I'm not too sure. I saw the movie once years ago, so I'm not refreshed on her feats. Lol she gave off Princess Snake vibes, so I'd say that would be the cap. In fact, if Goku Jr was a power of 10, and went super saiyan, that would put him around the level goku was when he dealt with princess snake.
But again, I don't remember her fight. Maybe she was Yamcha level, who was still stronger than a 10, and it still would force a ssj transformation to keep up.
??? Those monsters have power levels above 20. So yeah, in his base he's 4,5 just like an average human or kid. But he has hidden power. When he fended off that female his base power level was above 20 as his hidden power woke up. His SSJ was just above 130. Against Vegeta, his base had already reached that level and his SSJ was over 800.
@@Alienldr That isn't true. The SSJ isn't a steady multiplier . Later on, it's becoming as weak as 7x base.
Imagine instead of Super we had OG Dragon Ball soft reboot with Goku and Vegeta Jr. and SSJ forms, under real threats two reincarnations of our favorite Saiyans would long surpass their ancestors
Saiyan genetics don't get weaker as they are diluted
Imagine if Dragon Ball Super was a about Goku jr's journey instead of main goku's story 😳
It speaks to the resilience of Saiyan genetics, if anything.
Say what you will about the effects of diluted genetics on their Saiyan strength despite getting some type of Super Saiyan transformation, but can we also point out that pretty much every semi-Saiyan child is borderline a carbon copy of their parent in terms of character design, to the point where Goku/Vegeta Jr. after generations of human parents look damn near identical to their X-great-grandparents?
I think the two examples we know of where a Saiyan of any kind has a child that looks particularly different from themselves are Raditz and Trunks.
Well look at Bulma's descendant. She looks identical to Bulma and Bulma isn't even a Saiyan.
Didn't we get some info that states Sayian Blood doesn't dilute? Hince why so many super Sayians exist way later in the dragon ball world?
Heros I know, but seeing how alot of it gets pulled from now and Akira had a major hand in it, to the point many just flat out consider canon.
Also look up how the Majin race comes to be. Love it.
I mean, Goku Jr. Was also held back by his own fear and doubt type of mentality, like a mental block preventing him from reaching various levels of potential that require a lot of training to unlock. Meanwhile Vegeta Jr. Or if we are going by what Dragonball Super: Broly did with explaining the Vegeta lineage Vegeta the Fifth (V) or sixth (VI) because we don't know if any descendant of Bulla (Bra) and or Trunks whom are the kids of Bulma and Vegeta (IV) would have had any children or grandchildren named Vegeta... So for Vegeta Jr. Only thing that most likely makes him weaker is likely not having the same drive as his many greats grandfather Vegeta and being spoiled. Yeah it's possible for them to attain the same level of power as their ancestors but it'd take things such as Dende and other very powerful teachers to begin bringing out the power they possess and also likely if Capsule Corp has Bulma's gravity room schematics would need to create one and then Goku Jr and Vegeta Jr would essentially need to do similar training to when Goku was on King Kai's planet.
Also remeber that power lvls in Dragon Ball are not linear until we reach a couple 1000 in Z. In Og Fragon Ball a difference of like 50 or 100 could often be a huge deciding factor in a battle.
Also also don't forget that it is pretty consistent whith the series that the Saiyans in their base get much stronger after they have unlocked SSJ.
When I was younger the general consensus we had about Goku jr was he was basically really weak but just happened to be able to turn super Saiyan easier because it got easier as super Saiyan goes down the gene pool. Almost to the point that it could just happen much easier because each generation just makes the gene stronger or something because of whoever first was able to do it .
We didn't even know if pan could turn super Saiyan. It was never a thing that was mentioned, so maybe she could for all we knew. Her getting sick didn't even seen weird because even Goku got the heart virus, so like why wouldn't sicknesses effect super sayians anyhow, y'know?
Goku jr not being good at training wasn't even a matter of what power level he was at, it was just like, y'know, he wasn't good at it because it just wasn't his thing. He was like new to it or something.
Then explain Vegeta Jr.
@@QaamansLand about him. Turning super Saiyan? Yeah, we just thought Vegeta jr had access to training stuff, because his family is still capsule corp so they were rich, but it was that since he called it going blonde we just assumed that somewhere down the line some family members didn't really care about training and forgot super Saiyan was a thing. Like maybe he rediscovered it because training was his thing or something.
Idk if you mean about them being similar strength but if it's someone teaching Vegeta jr then we just assumed it was like he had his training machines and pan is a good teacher so their evenish or something.
But back then we didn't even look at super Saiyan like 100x multiplayer like now adays. We always kinda looked at it as like doubling someone's power or maybe trippeling it or something.
That's why most people who are older will say trunks meeting Goku was like one of the coolest things back then, because we looked at it like trunks was 2x stronger than Frieza, and Goku could block his sword with the ease of one finger so maybe in super Saiyan Goku was 2x stronger than trunk's super Saiyan. As for king cold (idk if you're gonna ask about this), we thought he was weaker than Frieza, but around similar power level
Great video my guy, love these type videos!!!
they should have used the genetic dominance like with viltrumites. because even though mark is half human, his dna is 98% viltrumite.
I remember Nolan said it was almost pure but where does the 98% come from?
Also, what about Mark's half-bug little brother? (Forgot his name as I was typing this)
@@QaamansLandI think I've read it somewhere
You dont realize how broken is ssj. Its a 50 times multiplier meaning that even if goku jr had a power level of 10 his ssj form would make his power level 500. Meaning that he would absolutely shit on end of db goku
A Goku Jr who was afraid of kids bullying him?
@@QaamansLandYou mean the Goku Jr. that could fight at high speeds in his base form? When Videl couldn't even fly casually at high speeds?
So odd I've gotten used to the typical trope of power granting genes just immune to the watering down only crystalizing and improving with mixing breeds.
Keep it up on your work and this video and channel
I ❤️ this video and channel
Thanks you for your video and channel
I ❤️ dragon ball all franchise
Nice explanation
you gotta account for how goku jr also had hidden power, and said hidden power got brought out with ssj along with a 50x amp.
Goku JR is basically weaker than DB kid goku from the first to last arc but when goku Jr turns SSJ he still doesn't destroy goku.
I disagree that diluted super saiyan genes makes them weaker. You take a goku jr, who doesn't want to fight. doesn't have a cadre of old martial artist to teach him, and lives in a time of peace which is the most important part. It makes sense, and doesn't have much to do with diluted genes. This line of thinking doesn't really track. Especially, if you take into account the growth that goku jr had in a short time period, I would say he has great potential. It doesn't really matter if they have a lower start, what was gokus baby power level, 10? Ya, I dont think where you start really matters, and how did he get so strong? He wanted to trained and had a master that taught him.
He becoming super sayan while being 1/64 sayan is just fanservice and everybody knows it. He wouldnt be able to have any of the sayans characteristics at this point.
IF such small genes were able to express themselves like that, rare diseases wouldnt be rare anymore because they would persist. If we assume that genetics for them work like ours genetic, without magic or absurd explanations or excuses.
He isnt even sayan at this point. It is would be like saying you are black or asian because your great great grandfather was black or asian. That's not how it works.
What about Pan then?
@@QaamansLand I think pan is the limit of what you can still call a hybrid saiyan. After her you would be pushing.
You not liking it doesn't make it not canon.
Goku Jr. is a Saiyan. Deal with it.
Sometimes you get an anomoly
If you’ve seen YuYu Hakusho, atavisms can also occur. In real life genes can pass on recessively until one day, for varying reasons, they express themselves in a distant descent.
Mazaku?
@@QaamansLand the MaGoku lol
If you have a Power Level of 1 and you go Super Saiyan, you still only have a Power Level of 50. And mind you, this is without any training of any kind.
Now, compare that to even Raditz with his Power Level of 1,500 or 1,600 and, well…
Goku with 10 was considered Superhuman, the guy could tank axes, bullets and anything they threw
That's weird, considering the farmer at the start of the "Z" era had a Power Level of 5. I mean, mathematically, Goku was only "twice" as strong as the farmer.
I guess this just reinforces the whole "power levels are nonsense" thing. Heh.
It is interesting to think about, in theory Goku Jr. Should be ridiculously strong since Gohan was stronger than Goku as a kid, and Pan was presumably stronger than Gohan as a kid. But like you said, he's almost entirely Earthling so the diminishing gains really hits him hard. I think putting him at around Kid Goku's PL of presumably 25 is fair. I think it's safe to assume that Pan most likely isn't as knowledgeable of a teacher as Gohan and Roshi who, despite their low power were quite accomplished masters So Kid Goku probably has him beat in overall skill and technique.
Goku as a kid was also being thrown challenge after challenge where as Goku Jr. Most likely had a softer lifestyle and didn't do hardcore training like Goku. So by the time the Tournament comes around I can see Goku Jr. And by proxy Vegeta Jr. Having a PL around the high double digits in base, he does have saiyan genes even if they are diluted after all. Overall, I say Goku would be the better martial artist having trained under the likes of Roshi and Korrin.
Explain Vegeta's lineage with Vegeta Jr. Like you did above. Brilliant comment.
If Piccolo was still alive, maybe he had been the Master Roshi for Goku's and Vegeta's families descendants.
@@DragonSkyNijaafter all. Kami during when Piccolo was still in the rice maker was shown to be over 200 years old.
@QaamansLand Well, I'd say Z King Vegeta wanted a powerful son and got just that with it being stated by Vegeta himself that as a kid, he already surpassed King. Then Trunks would presumably be stronger than that because of his hybrid potential. However, Trunks seemed more focused with running capsule Corp in GT and I think that's where the priority of Vegeta's descendants would lie. Maybe Trunks would teach his kids to throw hands, but Bulla? Probably not. Especially with 100 years of relative peace, the Vegeta family were probably not interacting with martial artists. This is just pure speculation, but maybe when Vegeta Jr. Was born and people compared him to our Vegeta is when he got that desire to be strong like his X Great Grandpa.
So since Goku Jr. And Vegeta Jr. Are parallels to their grandpa's, Kid Vegeta was immensely more powerful than Kid Goku although Goku grew up on a low gravity planet and other factors. It's possible that Vegeta Jr.s potential allows him to stay comparable to a Goku Jr. Who trained with Pan if he did train by himself, but the gap isn't as big as their ancestors since both are mostly Earthling at this point. This is just pure fun speculation since we know even less about Vegeta Jr. Than Goku Jr.
Overall, when the tournament rolls around, I don't think these kids in base form are gonna hold a candle to 22nd budokai Goku, Tien, Krillin, etc. They might be more comparable to characters in the 21st Budokai, probably a bit weaker since Pan's training probably wasn't anywhere near as brutal as Roshi's. At the very least, with SSJ, they could probably beat Raditz if they worked together.
Awesome reply and it totally makes sense.
Geez, if we consider Goku Jr. to be 1/50th of Goku at the beginning of the series that would put his power at 0.2. Wow, didn't Turtle have a level higher than that?!
Remember Kid Goku at the start of DB was said to have a power level of 10.
0.2 X 50 (Super Saiyan boost) = 10! I don't think Goku Jr. was THAT weak lol
The math isn't perfect but the idea that he's weaker than kid Goku as an SSJ is true.
@@QaamansLand you know what it's ironic in the FIRST scene of Goku in DB we see him casually 'walking' while standing on the top of a circular piece of wood just like Goku Jr. who wasn't able to even do that...
@@QaamansLandIt isn't. You're just making things up.
Still planning on making that revised DBZ timeline video?
I think it’s kind of heartwarming to see he isn’t super strong. It really gives the notion that Goku really _did_ save the universe and bring about an eternal peace. To the point where his descendants, though still strong, don’t need to train for death matches all the time and can just live.
I don’t think that being 1.6% Saiyan makes you weaker at all, it just depends on your up upbringing.
If having Diluted Genes was a bad thing, Gohan would be nowhere NEAR as strong as Goku, let alone stronger than him at multiple points in the story. Same for Gohan and Goten, both children would have bad power levels, and Gotenks would not be touching Super Buu.
It is exactly the same concept, 50/50 is not as good as being 100% even if you have half and half. There’s also Pan, who should be 25% Saiyan. We can see in Super Hero she is doing training with Piccolo, and doing well. She was doing better than Gohan was when he started training as a kid. So this adds more evidence to “Diluted Genes” being a horrible point. Pan would be doing considerably worse than Gohan.
Potential is a big factor in dragon ball. The characters that have turned Super Saiyan while very young seem to have that, and safe to say, Goku Jr probably has too.
The issue at hand is training. The Half-Breed Saiyans, like Gohan, Goten, and Trunks all have had training, whether it be a small amount, which “Kindled” their potential. This is why Goten was proving himself to Gohan, even when he was having the most basic training from Chi-Chi, you cannot get more vanilla training than that.
Goku Jr has had none of that, he barely does exercises, as labeled by Qaaman. Lack of training did not plant the seeds or build the foundation for his potential, or his power in general, leaving his power untapped. Due to it not being awakened, he may never get access to it. The key to the potential is being trained, at a young age, Even if the training is as basic as a little spar with a weaker opponent.
If anything, the show has shown the opposite, especially with S-Cells. Due to how S-Cells work, A Saiyan with a gentler nature, rather than a violent one, will have more S-Cells and will be more likely to transform. This is prevalent with Goten and Trunks.
Goku Jr probably has the calmest upbringing we’ve seen, with 0 big threats and being forced into big fights, and to train. In theory, he should have the most S-Cells we’ve seen. More than Gohan, more than Goten, More than Trunks, and maybe as much as Pan, she never had to fight a threat.
But pan would be able to go ss easy
4:20 Why Goku's power level is 10 at that point why the headcanon, Goku Junior should be above a Farmer with Shotgun in base with a power level of 5, 5*50 = 250, and any gap they have would be multiplied by 50 so probably much higher, even if you give his base a power level of 6 that would be 300 and make him solo almost all of OG Db, when did you get that Pan is weak Prime Pan might be the strongest character in the series (Gohan level potential and likes fighting )
That's why I don't like using numbers. The point still stands that even as a super Saiyan he is weaker than kid Goku.
@@QaamansLand I can see why you dislike using numbers but this is the only really objective way to get a lowball (that we know for sure Goku Jr reached) +if his base form after training and mastering SSJ is only 1 power level above Farmer with a shotgun he has a higher power level than the strongest Kid Goku
@@justsomeshinychewtlewitham6097 So what do you think is a fair estimate based on performance strictly. Not numbers
@@QaamansLand About his base form I agree with you that the monsters Goku fought were much stronger (even the one he saved Bulma from was a Dino) while Goku Jr considered a bear a powerhouse but I would also put him above the average human because he can push kids away with just his ki so he is somewhere on that range, but in super Saiyan, you can maybe argue that he defeated a Demon lord but their power ranges so much that it's useless and the only character scaling to him is another Super Saiyan (that we know nothing about) + Nobody ever gave him a good match so I don't think there's even a possible range to give
Your points are fair. The last question I have for you is what do you think is a fair estimate of Base Goku Jr in the tournament and SSJ Goku Jr in the tournament against Vegeta Jr? I'm asking because I'm thinking of doing a follow up
Lot of assumptions being made here. Firstly just because goku jr can’t do exercises doesn’t necessarily mean he is weak. Gohan at the beginning of z was stronger than goku and similarly would have failed at those before his training. With piccolo. Being enraged and supersaiyan could have acted like a catalyst for jr to use 100% of his powers similarly to gohan ss2 against cell.
Your estimates don't really make sense because you bring up Goku Jr being able to fly but then scale Kid Goku above him. When Goku didn't even learn the most basic Flight until the 23rd Budokai and wasn't shown as casually flying until Raditz's arrival.
At minimum you can scale Goku Jr to Tien's level just for being able to use flight easily in an intense fight, which would put his power around 180 (An official figure for Tien from the Daizenshuu) and possibly upwards to 416 (Goku's power against Raditz). Then just multiply that minimum figure of 180 by Super Saiyan (Which has always been 50x, even in the manga itself via basic math) and you get a power of 9,000
In short, since Goku Jr can casually use flight mid-battle his Ki Control and capacity must be equal to or greater than Tien in the 22nd Budokai in base form. Stacking Super Saiyan on top would make his power superior to Base Goku in the Saiyan Saga.
You can say Goku Jr is 'weak' or has inferior potential to Krillin but that's kind of contradicted by him going from weaker than Goku at the start of the franchise to TIen-level in base form in seemingly less than a year. When it took Goku over 6 years of training to hit the same level. And after Goku Jr meets Vegeta Jr, they would obviously explode in growth by having eachother as strong rivals.
Knowing how to fly doesn't make you stronger though. Is Videl "stronger" than prime Chi-Chi?
Also, which version of Saiyan Saga Goku are you referring to?
The Daizenshuu is uncontestedly wrong.
So yall think Android 17 and 18 still alive in a Heros legacy? I kknow they showed alot of tombstones but idk and maybe Dense is still alive since the dragonballs are still active
Roshi?
@QaamansLand yeah maybe Roshi trained Goku Jr 🤔 it would be cool if Majuub was still alive too since he fused with Buu but idk
So, it could also be a trait that skips generations. Goku was born with an extremely pathetic base power but was shown to have a potential far beyond the average Saiyan. Goku Jr besides Goten is the closest thing we get to Kid Goku again after GT. It stands to reason that he may have inherited Goku's blessing and curse. A pathetic start but unlimited potential.
However unlike Goku, he lives with Pan who probably takes good care of him. I bet he doesn't need to fish, beat up wild animals, cut down trees, etc like Goku had to do. So his upbringing in addition to inheriting this trait has probably made him incredibly soft.
Oh and btw, Goku.Jr would be at a PL of 4 if he was as strong as 22nd Goku. So actually I'd say that's about right. The farmer with the gun in Z is 5, probably a 1 without the gun.
Ssj is a 50x modifier...so when you figure if he started at say PL 5 for exmple and went ssj hed still be weaker than master roshi no buffs
Since Pan was 1/16 and bra was one half Saiyan.. would that make Vegeta Jr more Saiyan than Goku Jr?
Pan is 1/4...but also we dont know how many generations removed vegeta jr is from bra..he could be the same generation removed from vegeta as goku jr is from goku.
Just measure there power levels with a scouter
I think that the first mix of humans and saiyans actived some hidden gene in humans that locked them from attaining great power, and the activated gene lasts to the next generation
In Dragon Ball Transformations there is no multiplayers exist(Exept for Ozaru and Frieza's First to Third form)
Legendary Super Saiyan is Immeasurable and transcend Math Stated by Akira Toriyama himself. Notes:- Math>Tiering System that means Goku in Super Saiyan is Irrelevant^Irrelevant Layers to Above Tiering System.
Legendary Super Saiyan 2 is Immeasurable×2.
Legendary Super Saiyan 3 is Immeasurable×2×4.
Legendary Super Saiyan 4 is Immeasurable×2×4×10.
Legendary Super Saiyan God is Immeasurable×Immeasurable.
Legendary Super Saiyan Blue is Immeasurable×Immeasurable×Immeasurable.
Ultra Instinct is Immeasurable^Immeasurable
I dont think this guy has ever watched this show? If he did he would already know that there was a gt data book written a while back which already stated that goku and vegeta jr had similar power levels to goten and trunks? Where in 7 hells did you get this kid goku shit there wouldnt have even been a comparsion for number one!? a multitude of obvious reasons, the biggest one being common sense, you have never even seen kid goku fight on that level until he was damn near already an adult, secondly just because he was 1/16 saiyan doesnt neccesarily make him any weaker than anyone else, i mean look at krillin and yamcha they are both human and arguably the most powerful human beings on the planet' we also dont know what kinda training took place off screen with grandma pan and how strong that wouldve made him finally another thing your forgetting is that turning into a super saiyan multiplies a saiyans base form by 50x so its impossible and more the impropable that kid goku even teenage goku would have compared to goku jr in any way shape, form or fashion
I will give you an example at the start of Z when raditz came to earth he killed a human farmer that tried to shoot him, according to the official data book' that human farmer had a Powerlevel of 5 so lets assume that what your saying is true and goku jr had a power lvl of 5 right if he turned into a super saiyan his power lvl at that moment would have jumped up to 250 more than anything kid goku was capable of even post king piccolo' and that number is more than half of teen goku's power lvl which was 416 without the weights against raditz but the real issue here is that we all know goku jr. Doesnt have a power lvl of 5, but even if we increased it by a small margin still being generous at this point! lets say his power lvl' was about a lvl 50 still relatively small compared to kid goku and master roshi who was around 139 but even at 50 if he turned into a super saiyan it would still exceed all of theres combined and i mean by leaps and bounds 50 × 50 is 2,500 making him even stronger then raditz at the start of z any one who has watched dragonball and all its continuations and watched to understand would know how this video made no refutable sense whatsoever these characters were never in any kinda way comparable to eachother😮💨💯
Yeah i was thinking the same.
Goku Jr has a long way to go to be at the same strength as Goku
He may have SSJ1 (not mastered)
But he’s still got to learn SSJ2, SSJ3, SSJ4, SSG, SSJB, UI, MUI
But isn’t a average power lever for a human 5, if you just multiply that by 50 that’s a 250 power level that makes him stronger that Kid Goku after Roshi training. I do believe at the end Goku jr maybe had a power of like 15-20 but still with the multiplier that makes it a power of 750-1000.
I don’t think genes work like that. I think that Saiyan genes are probably dominant genes. They would have recessive human genes but I don’t think that would be enough to get rid of their Saiyan genes they would in theory create a new species.
exactly
They're weak enough that vegie jr is already going bald...seriously, htf does a kid that young have a widow's peak?
Also, if you've seen "invincible" it's possible that sayian genes don't work the way earth genes do. They're playing catch in one of the episodes and omni-man goes "My blood is so strong that you're practically a pure blood". which isn't how that's supposed to work but superhero/anime logic.
Viltrumites?
@@QaamansLand yeah that one. they want me to remember the species name they can make a few more seasons.
An interesting topic is a fan theory I’ve been pondering about lately. Are the Briefs and Dr. Gero possibly Tuffles or of Tuffle descent?
considering the idea of tuffles came out 20+ years after those characters came out, and GT being non-canon. Id say its pretty unlikely lol
@@Evasiv Ah man! But Between Bulma’s knowledge of astrophysics and Hedo’s genius in biochemistry they could create things together even the Gods wouldnt scoff at. I mean time travel and biomechnical supercyborgs
@@shameronstar7220 Eh, I think it'd downplay the already extremely useless humans in DBZ even more, with krillin yamcha and tien being basically useless nowadays, Bulma and Gero's inventions are really the only thing keeping humanity relevant lol. And if that was attributed to the tuffles, then humans are entirely pointless in dragonball besides just being people who die and get resurrected quite often. Which sounds hellish!
@@Evasiv Ironically, we kind of live in hell in a figurative sense
No idiot. Tuffles are three feet tall, and the Briefs and Gero would've already been born by the time the Tuffles died out. And there is ZERO EVIDENCE the Tuffles knew about Earth.
I dont know why but I love goku Jr
I think I would've like to see a series with Goku and Vegeta Jr
Nah i think Goku Jr would one shot DragonBall kid Goku in base form if he got mad with a rage boost without the ssj form
Ive been arguing this with people a lot lately lol theyre fodder even to OG dragonball tier.
Prove it.
But wait
Pan isnt goku jr.s great great gramma
They said she was just his gramma, right?
kid goku on episode 1, before he met bulma, had a powerlevel of 10. The average NORMAL human being has a powerlevel of 5, and a 50th of ten is 0.2 which is BARELY even living
3:18 *By all stretchs of headcanon
It's been over ONE HUNDRED YEARS SINCE THEN.
5:48 Prove it. For all we know, many years have passed.
6:26 Prove it.
7:30 Prove it.
I don’t think it’s weird at all that him and Vegeta Jr turning Super Sayian is not ridiculous because as long as you have Sayian DNA percentiles don’t matter😂😂😂 Also I disagree on him being weaker than kid Goku yes he is very weaker than him in the beginning. But that’s because of his fear, anxiety and his lack of courage😎👍🏽💯 Not to mention all half Sayian’s are different like Goten’s case he was extremely powerful in the beginning. But he didn’t know how to fly until Gohan trained him, not to mention Goten who was always training with kid Trunks who has more of an advantage with his training because of Vegeta along with I his training with Chi Chi which triggered him to become a Super Sayian because he was tired and a little afraid of her when she started going ham on him he had enough of her then kicked her😎👍🏽
Are you talking base or SSJ?
@@QaamansLand I was talking about the base forms building up their potential until they reached their Super Sayian forms becoming even more powerful😎👍🏽💯
Do you think that Goku Jr. is weaker than Videl in his base form?
That's a brilliant question. Yes he's weaker. But has more potential due to having 1.6% Saiyan DNA
@@QaamansLand Thanks for clarifying. I always thought he was at least stronger than Mr. Satan, but it's hard to tell considering he was fighting joke enemies in the movie.
Ive had a feeling that there is no such thing as being "half" saiyan lol the saiyan cells are dominate and most likely make anyone a saiyan mates with give them a saiyan child as well.
Bare minimum they’re Frieza level.
Saiyans need to attain a certain level of strength to achieve Super Saiyan, that and S-Cells are needed which grant Saiyans strength in peaceful environments.
Lowball - Weaker than Frieza (Episode of Bardock level)
Midball - (Relative to Namek Frieza)
A highball is funky because Goku Jr and Vegeta Jr aren’t really shown to have these levels of strength but you could kind of infer this level of power from them due to their potential. You could KINDA say they are relative or above other children in the series with high potentials, so above the likes of Kid Pan, Kid Uub, etc.
Wrong.
I just noticed there is lightning to goku jr ssj
i imagine Goku Jr. & Vegeta Jr.'s power levels are around 500 to 600 in super saiyan as super saiyan is a 50x times multiplier and goku jr's base power level around 10 or 12. making them stronger than king piccolo ( power lever 260 to 300 ) but weaker than teen goku and piccolo jr ( power level 330 to 900+ ). just my guess
That's a fair estimate but higher than that I think. Where would you scale Goku Jr. In a Hero's legacy in base and SSJ BEFORE fighting Vegeta Jr later on when he was more trained?
@@QaamansLand Goku jr when he fights lord yao before his fight with vegeta jr, i can't guess how strong he is in the tournament. this makes me wonder how strong Lord Yao is compared to King Piccolo.
I mean even a 1 percent saiyan 99 percent human shud be stronger than a 100 percent human fighter. But i think this is supposed to be a omage to goku being weaker as a kid, so since goku jr is maybe his reincarnation, he wud have the same startup in terms of strength. I think hes gotta be at least the same level as kid goku was with the ssj transformation being used. But i think if we take the 50 times multiplier, hes shud be stronger than goku was against raditz.
The question is, how strong would goku jr be as a full fledged adult
Can he destroy a planet? That’s the only thing that matters. 😊
He grew up in Peaceful life therefore, he never trained. Simple
so mr.satan( or hercule) in his golden ages is stronger than goku jr. without super Saiyan lmao
I love how in the Dragon Ball Heroes manga that Beat and Note are like 1/120th Saiyan but that’s still enough. Saiyan x Human genetics work wonderfully
Goku jr may be weak but he’s definitely stronger than a giant pig demon
Would be funnier if the less saiyan dna u have the stronger naturally than other saiyans. Sounds like something toriyama would do
ok ok wait but what about dragon ball online powerscailing in reference to goku jr. I know he's not from that era but the whole earth's average power level ends up going up. even fodder like characters can have power levels that are around 1k. its just some thought it had when I looked at the video. Idk if Dragon ball online is anywhere near cannon or not anymore tho.
But 1k is trash compared to the original Saiyans and humans.
@@QaamansLand yes but its much stronger the end of og dragon ball goku
It’s funny cause I’m actually tired of power scaling and the “who is stronger then who?” Convo at this point. I just want good story telling back.
I don't think they are as weak as made out here. GT is just using the "power scaling doesn't exist" rule like Super, which basically means insanely weak beings can keep up with or not get killed in one shot by beings that should by all rights be out of there league. Like Krillin and Roshi being able to fight guys even Super Saiyan Blue struggled with.
The only way SSJ goku jr could be so weak is that his diluted saiyan genetics must make the SSJ form less effective. If it's still a 50x multiplier base goku jr would be way weaker then the average human, but considering he still does superhuman feats in base he must be higher then a power lvl of 5 in base.
Even better question, what happened to vegeta Jr's hairline?
Wait we learned that vegeta is the 4th of his name does this mean vegeta Jr is vegeta the like 10th
I understand where you're coming from, howver I have a different opinion on the matter. If we're talking about Strength alone, I believe Goku Jr as a SSJ is stronger than kid Goku. If we're talking about fighting experience/courage/sayian Pride, then of course Goku would have the upper-hand (for all the reasons you stated in your video). Goku always had someone to train him which got him his fighting experience at a very young age. The "S-Cells" are obviously strong with Goku Jr since he was able to turn SSJ at a younger age than Goku. It seems like as long as you're part sayian (regardless of percentage), then you will have the same potential (even higher as obvious with the half breeds) than a 100% pure sayians.
Well actually u can't say he was fighting villains like that. I mean on the surface sure but these villains or enemies in og DB have stated power lvls. So to asume they are the same strength is like saying Vegito in the Goku Black arc was building lvl cause we don't see him perform higher feats. Don't get me wrong from a narrativer point of view this argument makes sense but not when ur trying to scale it to the rest of the series.
Goku jr i think did not train like goku when he was a kid
As harsh as this may sound, I sometimes like to think this special never happened 😊
Not cannon so yes it didn't.
@@LoneadminWrong.
It did.
I think that isnt as much about saiyan genetics than it is the lack of fighting and trainning the familly has had due to tahe piece on earth
Disclaimer: english is not my first language so i may express myself weirdly. Also, this response is intended as a constructive correction using basic level knowledge of genetics; i do not intend to give a scientifically exact explanation on the topic.
Assuming goku jr is 1/64 of a sayan because his family has been related to humans for a few generations may be logic at first, but is not exactly how genetics work.
When two animals breed, the offspring doesn't randomly take 50% genes of the mother and 50% of the father just to lose the remaining genes into oblivion. What actually happens is that the offspring inherits a copy of the DNA of both parents and then awakens some of the traits on the gene pool. the traits awakened by the offspring are decided (with some probability involved) by the genes being dominant/co-dominant/recessive.
The genes may last for hundreds or even thousands of generations as long as they are strong enough to not ve overwritten by another gene and are not damaged somehow.
if you consider this, the fact that goku jr shows up an appearance identical to goku and that he can transform into super sayan means that most of the sayan traits are dominant over most human traits, meaning that he is mostly sayan with some human genes on the pool instead of mostly human with a little sayan genes on the pool.
Then why is he weaker than any other sayan we've known. Well, let's consider goku wasn't born strong. His power level at birth was 2 and grew up to 10 by the pilaf saga and after being trained by an actual martial artist(grandpa gohan). So, maybe Pan was just not a good sensei and goku jr got stuck with a low power level.
Why were Goten and Gohan way stronger than goku jr on the same age? well, they are also way stronger than goku on the same age. My belief is that their potential doesn't come from goku's genes, but chichi's. Think about it, she was a martial artist that descends from a world champion. Which means she may have good genetics for combat. If we sum that to the fact that she can get angry really easily and appear to be stronger when that happens, may be a sign of a berserk-like trait on her genes. If gohan inherited that trait, then it can be an easy explanation on how he was able to do such powerful things at the very beginning of DBZ even before his potential was awakened. This also aligns to gohan's zenith(cell saga) being rage based powerups. About Goten... by the time he was training, the whole Z warriors had a better understanding of ki and Sayan anatomy. So he probably just grew up stronger due to a better training.
It’s ironic because Dragon Ball begins with Goku and Bulma and it’s thru their descendants that the mixed breed saiyans come from.
That's not irony.
@@fuckthisstupidasshandleshit I’m sorry, I didn’t know this was ENC 1101
@@shameronstar7220I'm sorry, I didn't know that knowing your own language is considered "nerdy". I thought that that was something even the simplest of humans could understand. Guess not.
This makes me ask the question. If Half Sayians have more potential than Full Blood Sayians, at which point does the blood get deluded?
Who is Goku Jr's dad tho, why was he running in the wild fighting boars
I disagree. How can someone like Goten and Pan both being born during different eras of peace, be prodigies at such a early age. Even Gohan was born during peace and only got stronger due to the dangers he had to go thru on earth and in space. But Goten and Pan go thru nothing and have crazy power at age 7 & 5 respectively. How does it make sense that Goku Jr & Vegeta Jr can achieve Super Saiyan but their diluted Saiyan blood made them weaker.?
10 year skip makes more sense tho. You not telling me bra was only 8 in gt 💀