In the article, "A Landscape of Consciousness", Kuhn writes at the end his own opinion about consciousness: "... My own hunch, right here, right now-if I’m coerced to disclose it and for what little it’s worth-might be something of a Dualism-Idealism mashup.(I can describe; I dare not defend.)" p. 156
If you want to understand consciousness, physics is about the last thing you should discussing. When you discuss something even as minimally complex as a big ball of hydrogen, physicists scramble to find ancillary theories to explain the full range of observations. To think that you are going to get any insight into something as super high order as consciousness from wheezy old quantum mechanics is the height of absurdity.
Brains are too complex to analyse holistically all at the same time in the lowest level terms. Fortunately I don’t think we need to. The right level of analysis is information science, which then reduces to physics.
@simonhibbs887 No. The physics definition of information in which it is equated with entropy is super stupid. Real information theory is a good level at which to attack the problem but it isn't the only one.
@@johnrichardson7629 Shannon entropy isn’t a definition of information, it’s a way of measuring the amount of information. That’s a common misconception. The actual information of a phenomenon is defined by its properties and structure. Shannon entropy measures all the different combinations of structure those properties can have. This fact is the reason why we have information technology and why it works. I think it would be tough to build a practical physical technology based on something that isn’t physical.
@@johnrichardson7629 Sure. It’s a topic that is a very technical, a bit obscure and not widely understood. Even many popular science sources get this stuff wrong. For example, what is the physical account of meaning? There is one, and when you look into it it’s obvious, but barely anyone really understands it at a systematic level. Consider a counter that can be incremented and decremented. What is its meaning? That is entirely defined by the physical processes that increment and decrement it, for example when widgets enter or leave a warehouse. Now we know what the counter total means. Similarly a digital map in a self driving car computer generated from sensor data. Its meaning is defined by the processes that generate the data, and use it to navigate the car. People will say things like that meaning is something that only applies to consciousness, but nobody has the be conscious of the counter total at any given time, and nobody might ever be conscious of the map data in the car computer, yet any account of meaning must be able to explain how such systems operate.
Thank you CTT for this interview. It’s an important conversation and these questions are helpful in teasing out the threads of Papineau’s view. Well done.
The nature of consciousness is what you have and I have. At some point going down the scale consciousness disappears. When the component parts come into view, insight ends. It’s like trying to understand the Beatles by putting their music scores under a microscope and examining the ink - or that atoms that make up the ink. No insight comes from the bottom-up view. The analysis breaks down at some point on the downward path.
So far as accuracy of evolution, RLK claims, is concerned one must be very clear the purpose of knowledge is NOT to declare what exists as immutable, inevitable and irrefutable facts, hence must be respected and endured, but to RECTIFY THE ERRORS in the system of nature that is evil. Otherwise there is no difference between science and conventional religions. In fact science, because of its enormous advantage over religions to convince accuracy due to its practical applicability, serves to justify and perpetuate evil by its convincing EXPLANATIONS, far more effectively than all the religions taken together. It provides the scientists the very same harlot's prerogative (authority without responsibility) that the conventional religions provide to their priests, and in a far more effective way. That is the reason why we have a plethora of blatant predictions of disastrous ends to the entire universe (Big Rip, Big Crunch, Heat Death, Solar Demise, Andromeda - Milky Way Collision, Astroid Strikes and whatnot), in addition to the shameless predictions of imminent and already experienced environmental catastrophes ~ its own baby.
Science is hierarchy, accuracy of evolution is wrong because evolution is just a word and replaceable by change, growth, experience, transformation,birth,sex, progress and more. Science is no different to a religion, even without science, knowledge and wisdom accumulate. The only word that have importance is knowledge and wisdom. Knowledge= know that is number. Wisdom= understand how to count.
@@F1ct10n17 Numbers, letters, symbols ~ all serve to acquire, store and use knowledge. By restricting it to numbers only, you have ignored the fact that you have yourself expressed it in WORDS = not numbers, but combination of letters. Hence, a clear self contradiction.
Another contradiction of mothers is not all mothers gives birth at the same numbers for example a frog and crabs. That's why I don't use numbers because it is not stable reason to be proven right.
Does a radical physicalist identity theory of consciousness have an answer for this? Most physicalists--panpsycists notwithstanding--believe that consciousness emerged at some point in evolutionary history. But if it is an emergent phenomenon, then it was not part of the universe as a physical phenomenon before it emerged in evolutionary history. So there is something going on in consciousness that does not go on in the physical universe apart from consciousness. To me that suggests a form of physical dualism. Not an identity between consciousness and physicalism. It may be that defining physicalism as an emergent process takes care of the problem. But the definition could also be used to bifurcate what physicalism is repeatedly...
Do you think this generally of all emergent phenomena, such as weather patterns, the electrical properties of semiconductors or capacitors, solar systems, galaxies, etc all follow the same pattern of logic? If these are emergent phenomena then they weren’t originally part of the universe. The problem with your line of reasoning is that these are all structures and behaviours. Nature produces new structures and new behaviours, especially of complex systems, all of the time. They are just combinations. We don’t need to imagine weather dualism, field effect transmission dualism, solar system dualism, etc to explain these. Physicalists generally think that consciousness is a highly sophisticated phenomenon of information processing. It is perceptive, representational, interpretive, analytical, self-referential, recursive, reflective, it can self-modify. These are all attributes of information processing systems, and we can implement simple versions of all of these attributes in information processing systems right now so we know all of these are physical behaviours.
I am your sister from Yemen, and by Allah I only spoke out of hunger and distress. My mother, my brothers, and I lessons and tears. We are in a situation that only God knows about. God is sufficient for us, and He is the best disposer of affairs for those who broughtOh people, we are your sisters, by God 😭😭😭 We do not even find a loaf of bread inside the house that would satisfy you, oh nation of Muhammad. People are brothers. Oh God, make your righteous servants subservient to us. Oh God, make your righteous servants subservient to us. My appeal to every Muslim, oh Lord, if he sees this message, may He prolong his life, make him happy, and cover him. May God reward him. God is sufficient for me, and He is the best disposer of affairs. There is no power or strength except with God. Oh people, oh nation of Muhammad, oh people of goodness, oh people of mercy. We are your sisters and your children. By God, we do not even find a loaf of bread inside the house that would satisfy you. Oh nation of Muhammad, I only spoke out of extreme hunger and distress. My mother, sisters, and I are displaced from our homes because of the war. We are in a state that no one knows about except God. God is sufficient for us, and He is the best disposer of affairs, against those who brought us to this state 💔💔 By God Almighty, I only wrote this appeal out of extreme poverty and poverty, oh people. I beg you by God Almighty, Lord of the Mighty Throne, that I do not have food at home. By God, my brothers and sisters have been sitting around for two days. Without food, by God our situation is very difficult, we are 4 people in the house and my father passed away and there is no one to support us and we live in a rented house and we cannot pay the rest of the rent. I am not lying to you nor deceiving you nor cheating you. I am a Yemeni girl displaced because of the war between me and my family over a rent dispute and the owner of the house. By God, my brother comes every day and humiliates us and talks about us and wants us to go out to the street because we are unable to pay him the rent. The neighbors saw us crying and talked to the neighbors again and gave us a deadline until the end of the week and we swore to God to let us out of the street now we are in arrears of 60 thousand Yemeni riyals for 3 months rent may God have mercy on us our country is suffering because of this war and we do not find our daily sustenance and we live my mother and sisters our father passed away may God have mercy on him and we do not have anyone in the world to come to us in these harsh circumstances my little sisters went out to the street and saw the neighbors eating and stood at their door giving them even a piece of bread and by God in whose hand is the heavens and the earth they closed the door and kicked them out and they came back crying dying of hunger no one has mercy on them and now the holiday has come back to me if no one of us helps us with a kilo of flour by God we will die of hunger brother I seek refuge in God and then in you and I want your help for the sake of God I ask you by God you love goodness and help me even if it is about the rent of the house send me a WhatsApp message on this number 00967711013075 and ask for my card name and send it and do not delay may God compensate you with all good My little sisters, look at their situation and help us and save us before they throw us out into the street and humiliate us or my family and I die of hunger. We ask you by God, if you are able to help us, do not delay on us, and may God reward you with good.'~~_«%•&»_~~_~&:»'////;&&;&;&;;&🎉😢😢😢😢;&;&&&//&..,!~~~♡♡♡~~~♡~♡~•~•~•~•~♡~♡~♡~;l.i.i.i.i.i.l.|-.-....،،،،،..،..................................
Thank you for sharing, Mr. Robert Dr. Kuhn, sir. My simple thoughts: All the evidence is here right now. What's that quote again - 'if the universe is the answer, what then is the question'? Some have stated - "but there's no evidence of a God". Everything is and literally is the evidence of all the gods(powers of nature) - or known as the modulations and expressions of this 'the one' or God - and the one, or the Absolute, Agathon, Brahman; that which we give appellation of God to. What - you don't believe in magic? Well, here it is. Right here and right now. What do you think all this is? What - naturalism? What's naturalism? So everything that one is familiar with, that is natural, but what is subtle, inconceivable, immutable, unknown, therefore alien, is not natural, and nonsense...yes yes. I see no division between metaphysics and physics, nor science and theology. Theology is based on science. All the information we gathered via scientific methods and inquiry, most importantly dependent on our experience, there we see patterns, and he who is of an inquisitive disposition and an intuition, from a real yearning after being reborn, begins to see something ever so subtle, pure and powerful, and beautiful, i.e. the substratum. There's patterns in nature or symbolism. Running nature back retroductively, utilizing all such understandings of physics as a guide, with the principles and universals that we can acknowledge and evoking the very 'reason principles' in all things - like a tree seed having inherently within itself the very latent blueprint just awaiting for its potentiality to commence - understanding all such, and with Reason applied, exercising the God-given intellect, we can and do go back 'up stream'. 'Objective negation leads to subjective synthesis' - Theoria Apophasis 'The circumference of God is nowheres and God's center is everywheres' - Theoria Apophasis. It's not about making the universe and such trivial information those with a poor fund of knowledge "believe" to be fundamental, rather it is in a genuine and mutual relationship both with Self and nature, integration into and with this cosmological Divine Deity, there where union with the divine is had. It's all about wisdom. Philosophia is liberation - it's not about epistomology and information and being able to become a walking and talking encyclopedia, that's the error modern academia made. Wisdom wisdom wis....
That’s a completely useless comment. You think you are so superior, is all we get from it. Have you some evidence otherwise? Some veridical data that consciousness is immaterial or exists at all? Where is it? Enlighten us all. Acupuncture is pseudo science yet you pretentiously act like you know more than major philosophers and scientists. Irony! It’s based on extreme old outdated mythologically minded ignorant people, yet you mock this as outdated!? I’ve seen two acupuncture slingers, neither did anything that worked. Its accuracy is within the range of placebo. But you know better and make a living off it so you are biased.
![Would We Be Better Off Without Religion? - Christopher Hitchens [2007] ✝️ | Intelligence Squared](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/DIR7_X-ahy4/mqdefault.jpg)
I have enjoyed this guy's interviews for so long
They are talking about consciousness. Means are Rambling and keep out neuroscience proceendings. Science wortheless.
In the article, "A Landscape of Consciousness", Kuhn writes at the end his own opinion about consciousness: "... My own hunch, right here, right now-if I’m coerced to disclose it and for what little it’s worth-might be something
of a Dualism-Idealism mashup.(I can describe; I dare not defend.)" p. 156
Waiting is Hell !! 😟 🙂
Patience is a VIRTUE.
If you want to understand consciousness, physics is about the last thing you should discussing. When you discuss something even as minimally complex as a big ball of hydrogen, physicists scramble to find ancillary theories to explain the full range of observations. To think that you are going to get any insight into something as super high order as consciousness from wheezy old quantum mechanics is the height of absurdity.
Brains are too complex to analyse holistically all at the same time in the lowest level terms. Fortunately I don’t think we need to. The right level
of analysis is information science, which then reduces to physics.
@simonhibbs887 No. The physics definition of information in which it is equated with entropy is super stupid. Real information theory is a good level at which to attack the problem but it isn't the only one.
@@johnrichardson7629 Shannon entropy isn’t a definition of information, it’s a way of measuring the amount of information. That’s a common misconception. The actual information of a phenomenon is defined by its properties and structure. Shannon entropy measures all the different combinations of structure those properties can have.
This fact is the reason why we have information technology and why it works. I think it would be tough to build a practical physical technology based on something that isn’t physical.
@@simonhibbs887 OK, I will look into this further.
@@johnrichardson7629 Sure. It’s a topic that is a very technical, a bit obscure and not widely understood. Even many popular science sources get this stuff wrong.
For example, what is the physical account of meaning? There is one, and when you look into it it’s obvious, but barely anyone really understands it at a systematic level. Consider a counter that can be incremented and decremented. What is its meaning? That is entirely defined by the physical processes that increment and decrement it, for example when widgets enter or leave a warehouse. Now we know what the counter total means. Similarly a digital map in a self driving car computer generated from sensor data. Its meaning is defined by the processes that generate the data, and use it to navigate the car.
People will say things like that meaning is something that only applies to consciousness, but nobody has the be conscious of the counter total at any given time, and nobody might ever be conscious of the map data in the car computer, yet any account of meaning must be able to explain how such systems operate.
Compelling! David's reasoning makes good sense and meshes nicely with my 'mind'.
This was a great interview!
Thank you CTT for this interview. It’s an important conversation and these questions are helpful in teasing out the threads of Papineau’s view. Well done.
From a Muslim's perspective, based on the Qur'an and Sunnah, the spirit (ruh) is responsible for the existence of consciousness in humans.
The nature of consciousness is what you have and I have. At some point going down the scale consciousness disappears. When the component parts come into view, insight ends. It’s like trying to understand the Beatles by putting their music scores under a microscope and examining the ink - or that atoms that make up the ink. No insight comes from the bottom-up view. The analysis breaks down at some point on the downward path.
what year is this man living in? his intellect is simplistic.
So says the guy named "Baja Jones". 🤣
The highest state is simplicity.
The lowest state is division, convolution, contradiction, collision.
What ever answer you come up with has to be the same for all of consciousness. And not make us a special case.
So far as accuracy of evolution, RLK claims, is concerned one must be very clear the purpose of knowledge is NOT to declare what exists as immutable, inevitable and irrefutable facts, hence must be respected and endured, but to RECTIFY THE ERRORS in the system of nature that is evil.
Otherwise there is no difference between science and conventional religions. In fact science, because of its enormous advantage over religions to convince accuracy due to its practical applicability, serves to justify and perpetuate evil by its convincing EXPLANATIONS, far more effectively than all the religions taken together.
It provides the scientists the very same harlot's prerogative (authority without responsibility) that the conventional religions provide to their priests, and in a far more effective way.
That is the reason why we have a plethora of blatant predictions of disastrous ends to the entire universe (Big Rip, Big Crunch, Heat Death, Solar Demise, Andromeda - Milky Way Collision, Astroid Strikes and whatnot), in addition to the shameless predictions of imminent and already experienced environmental catastrophes ~ its own baby.
Science is hierarchy, accuracy of evolution is wrong because evolution is just a word and replaceable by change, growth, experience, transformation,birth,sex, progress and more. Science is no different to a religion, even without science, knowledge and wisdom accumulate. The only word that have importance is knowledge and wisdom.
Knowledge= know that is number.
Wisdom= understand how to count.
@@F1ct10n17
Numbers, letters, symbols ~ all serve to acquire, store and use knowledge.
By restricting it to numbers only, you have ignored the fact that you have yourself expressed it in WORDS = not numbers, but combination of letters. Hence, a clear self contradiction.
@@mykrahmaan3408 because mothers don't need to count how many children they give birth to, they already know when they come out.
Another contradiction of mothers is not all mothers gives birth at the same numbers for example a frog and crabs. That's why I don't use numbers because it is not stable reason to be proven right.
Does a radical physicalist identity theory of consciousness have an answer for this? Most physicalists--panpsycists notwithstanding--believe that consciousness emerged at some point in evolutionary history. But if it is an emergent phenomenon, then it was not part of the universe as a physical phenomenon before it emerged in evolutionary history. So there is something going on in consciousness that does not go on in the physical universe apart from consciousness. To me that suggests a form of physical dualism. Not an identity between consciousness and physicalism. It may be that defining physicalism as an emergent process takes care of the problem. But the definition could also be used to bifurcate what physicalism is repeatedly...
Do you think this generally of all emergent phenomena, such as weather patterns, the electrical properties of semiconductors or capacitors, solar systems, galaxies, etc all follow the same pattern of logic? If these are emergent phenomena then they weren’t originally part of the universe. The problem with your line of reasoning is that these are all structures and behaviours. Nature produces new structures and new behaviours, especially of complex systems, all of the time. They are just combinations. We don’t need to imagine weather dualism, field effect transmission dualism, solar system dualism, etc to explain these.
Physicalists generally think that consciousness is a highly sophisticated phenomenon of information processing. It is perceptive, representational, interpretive, analytical, self-referential, recursive, reflective, it can self-modify. These are all attributes of information processing systems, and we can implement simple versions of all of these attributes in information processing systems right now so we know all of these are physical behaviours.
Consciousness is life it's in every living thing .
I am your sister from Yemen, and by Allah I only spoke out of hunger and distress. My mother, my brothers, and I lessons and tears. We are in a situation that only God knows about. God is sufficient for us, and He is the best disposer of affairs for those who broughtOh people, we are your sisters, by God 😭😭😭 We do not even find a loaf of bread inside the house that would satisfy you, oh nation of Muhammad. People are brothers. Oh God, make your righteous servants subservient to us. Oh God, make your righteous servants subservient to us. My appeal to every Muslim, oh Lord, if he sees this message, may He prolong his life, make him happy, and cover him. May God reward him. God is sufficient for me, and He is the best disposer of affairs. There is no power or strength except with God. Oh people, oh nation of Muhammad, oh people of goodness, oh people of mercy. We are your sisters and your children. By God, we do not even find a loaf of bread inside the house that would satisfy you. Oh nation of Muhammad, I only spoke out of extreme hunger and distress. My mother, sisters, and I are displaced from our homes because of the war. We are in a state that no one knows about except God. God is sufficient for us, and He is the best disposer of affairs, against those who brought us to this state 💔💔 By God Almighty, I only wrote this appeal out of extreme poverty and poverty, oh people. I beg you by God Almighty, Lord of the Mighty Throne, that I do not have food at home. By God, my brothers and sisters have been sitting around for two days. Without food, by God our situation is very difficult, we are 4 people in the house and my father passed away and there is no one to support us and we live in a rented house and we cannot pay the rest of the rent. I am not lying to you nor deceiving you nor cheating you. I am a Yemeni girl displaced because of the war between me and my family over a rent dispute and the owner of the house. By God, my brother comes every day and humiliates us and talks about us and wants us to go out to the street because we are unable to pay him the rent. The neighbors saw us crying and talked to the neighbors again and gave us a deadline until the end of the week and we swore to God to let us out of the street now we are in arrears of 60 thousand Yemeni riyals for 3 months rent may God have mercy on us our country is suffering because of this war and we do not find our daily sustenance and we live my mother and sisters our father passed away may God have mercy on him and we do not have anyone in the world to come to us in these harsh circumstances my little sisters went out to the street and saw the neighbors eating and stood at their door giving them even a piece of bread and by God in whose hand is the heavens and the earth they closed the door and kicked them out and they came back crying dying of hunger no one has mercy on them and now the holiday has come back to me if no one of us helps us with a kilo of flour by God we will die of hunger brother I seek refuge in God and then in you and I want your help for the sake of God I ask you by God you love goodness and help me even if it is about the rent of the house send me a WhatsApp message on this number 00967711013075 and ask for my card name and send it and do not delay may God compensate you with all good My little sisters, look at their situation and help us and save us before they throw us out into the street and humiliate us or my family and I die of hunger. We ask you by God, if you are able to help us, do not delay on us, and may God reward you with good.'~~_«%•&»_~~_~&:»'////;&&;&;&;;&🎉😢😢😢😢;&;&&&//&..,!~~~♡♡♡~~~♡~♡~•~•~•~•~♡~♡~♡~;l.i.i.i.i.i.l.|-.-....،،،،،..،..................................
You have the wrong channel. This isn’t the superstition channel.
Harris Sarah Hall Sharon Thomas Linda
Thank you for sharing, Mr. Robert Dr. Kuhn, sir.
My simple thoughts:
All the evidence is here right now.
What's that quote again - 'if the universe is the answer, what then is the question'?
Some have stated - "but there's no evidence of a God".
Everything is and literally is the evidence of all the gods(powers of nature) - or known as the modulations and expressions of this 'the one' or God - and the one, or the Absolute, Agathon, Brahman; that which we give appellation of God to.
What - you don't believe in magic? Well, here it is. Right here and right now. What do you think all this is? What - naturalism? What's naturalism? So everything that one is familiar with, that is natural, but what is subtle, inconceivable, immutable, unknown, therefore alien, is not natural, and nonsense...yes yes.
I see no division between metaphysics and physics, nor science and theology. Theology is based on science. All the information we gathered via scientific methods and inquiry, most importantly dependent on our experience, there we see patterns, and he who is of an inquisitive disposition and an intuition, from a real yearning after being reborn, begins to see something ever so subtle, pure and powerful, and beautiful, i.e. the substratum. There's patterns in nature or symbolism. Running nature back retroductively, utilizing all such understandings of physics as a guide, with the principles and universals that we can acknowledge and evoking the very 'reason principles' in all things - like a tree seed having inherently within itself the very latent blueprint just awaiting for its potentiality to commence - understanding all such, and with Reason applied, exercising the God-given intellect, we can and do go back 'up stream'.
'Objective negation leads to subjective synthesis'
- Theoria Apophasis
'The circumference of God is nowheres and God's center is everywheres'
- Theoria Apophasis.
It's not about making the universe and such trivial information those with a poor fund of knowledge "believe" to be fundamental, rather it is in a genuine and mutual relationship both with Self and nature, integration into and with this cosmological Divine Deity, there where union with the divine is had.
It's all about wisdom. Philosophia is liberation - it's not about epistomology and information and being able to become a walking and talking encyclopedia, that's the error modern academia made. Wisdom wisdom wis....
Jones James Brown James Young Kimberly
Young Daniel Walker Karen Smith Donna
Was this recordrd in 1924. Such outdated..
That’s a completely useless comment. You think you are so superior, is all we get from it.
Have you some evidence otherwise? Some veridical data that consciousness is immaterial or exists at all? Where is it? Enlighten us all.
Acupuncture is pseudo science yet you pretentiously act like you know more than major philosophers and scientists.
Irony! It’s based on extreme old outdated mythologically minded ignorant people, yet you mock this as outdated!?
I’ve seen two acupuncture slingers, neither did anything that worked. Its accuracy is within the range of placebo.
But you know better and make a living off it so you are biased.